Welcome to the live cast. My name is Glenn Scrivener, and uh we have a very special guest uh tuning in from where where are you tuning in from, Michael Otts?
SPEAKER_00Uh I'm in Marlowe, uh which not many people have heard of, uh Buckinghamshire, about halfway between Oxford and London. Sounds pretty nice, is it is it lovely? Uh it is pretty lovely actually. Uh we're we're on the River Thames, so we're about 10 metres that way. Um and uh yeah, it's a pretty beautiful part of the country.
SPEAKER_03Amazing. And and you you traversed the the the River Thames quite recently. What was what was this uh madcap adventure?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I just um I read three men in a boat um a couple of months ago, and um it kind of gave me the idea of heading down the River Thames, uh not in a boat, but on my paddleboard. Um so I a few years ago taught stand-up paddleboarding for a summer, and uh we recently bought paddleboards, uh, Rebecca and I. And so uh she dropped me off in Cricklade, um, over in Gloucestershire, and then I spent seven days uh paddling to uh Teddington, which is the last lock before it becomes tidal on the Thames. So uh um thankfully I had done a little test of the week before because I was assuming I'd be able to paddle about 50 miles a day. Then I realized if you paddle for about 12 hours really hard, you get about 20, 25 miles. So it's about the slowest way of getting from A to B invented.
SPEAKER_03Yes, the paddle board. Okay. Um but you I mean you're going downstream, I take it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, unfortunately the stream doesn't flow very fast at all in the summer. Right. It's a lot faster than it in January.
SPEAKER_03Okay. Have fun. And what do you and what do you do while you're what while you're paddling? What what what does the idle mind of of Michael Lutz where does it?
SPEAKER_00Sound really cheesy, but I um I listen to podcasts from Speak Life. Of course you do.
SPEAKER_03You just binge all of Speak Life's material.
SPEAKER_00But basically, I listen to quite a lot of stuff. Um, so uh audiobooks, so I have um lots of audiobooks on my phone, so I listen to that. Um uh listen to podcasts, watch the world go by, chat to people you meet. That's amazing. Enjoy being outside.
SPEAKER_03Wow. Wow. Tell me, um, what what do you do day by day and and before lockdown hits? What was your what was your pattern?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, we all have like pre-COVID, post-COVID lives, don't we? Um pre-COVID, um uh I was uh working as an evangelist with university students. Well, I still am really, but in a kind of different way at the moment. But uh uh speaking at um weeks of events that student groups organized, um, both here in the UK and in other parts of Europe, um, explaining the Christian faith, um, engaging people's questions. Um so that normally took me away a lot. So I'd be traveling um to different universities around Europe, um, doing weeks like that, um, and uh and then involved in training Christian students to be able to hopefully uh better share their faith um and answer the questions that their friends might have. So that's kind of pre-COVID, post-COVID, I've been doing that, but just doing it all from my dining room at the end of a computer. So I was in Kazakhstan a couple of days ago um speaking to the the Kazakh group. It's a lot easier and cheaper, but it's not quite so much fun when you don't get to deep through it.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, when you're just in two dimensions and using only two of the five sensors, it's it's it's not exactly the same, is it? But how long have you been wearing the evangelist's hat then?
SPEAKER_00Um so uh I guess it was probably about the age of eighteen that I had I become a Christian, uh come to faith um much younger, probably about the age of seven, um, through the uh the Sunday school at our local church. But I think it was probably about the age of eighteen that I had a really strong sense that, hey, if this is really true, um, and I think it is, um, and if this is really, really important and I think it is, then this is something I really want to share with others. And so, kind of out of the blue, really, um, I suddenly had a very real strong conviction, we might say, that that's something I wanted to share, um, to communicate to others. Um, and so I ended up studying theology for three years, um, and then working for a church for five years as their evangelist on staff in Bournemouth, and then since that really for the last uh 12 or so years um been involved in uh I guess we call it itinerant evangelism. Although a friend of mine who's an itinerant evangelist stopped using that term when he got a letter saying, Dear illiterate evangelist. So um, but but I guess traveling. So I'm based in Marlowe, used to be based in Bournemouth, but most of my ministry, my work is is in other places.
SPEAKER_03And mostly directed towards students or not not universally, but um not universally, but mostly it has.
SPEAKER_00Actually, during lockdown, I've ended up doing um a lot more stuff for local churches, um partly because it's kind of easy. You can go anywhere you can from your living room. So um that's been really good. Um and always been very involved in in whichever local church I've been part of. Um I think that's been really important and really helpful too.
SPEAKER_03So as you've been paddling down the Thames and uh and listening to the Speak Life podcast, um you've you've probably caught uh the last couple of episodes where we've spoken about cancel culture. And uh we've had this survey of unpopular or unsayable opinions, and we we gathered together about two and a half thousand unsayable opinions, and we've been uh Paul Feese and myself batting back and forth. Um, what does this mean about uh how Christians should think about speech? Um, what does it make you think of as uh as an evangelist? Are you worried by cancel culture? Um are there opportunities surrounding these issues? How do you react as an evangelist?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think um I think it's interesting looking at everything that's going on. I think if you if you kind of look at Twitter and social media, um you kind of get this impression that the whole world thinks a certain way, and and we're very much not in that world most of the time, um, in terms of our beliefs, our worldview, our philosophy of life, and so on. And so that can feel a little bit um disconcerting. You kind of think like, gosh, I really, I really kind of you know don't fit in here. And yet, and I think you spoke about this, the kind of the the range of views that kind of social media often presents isn't often reflective of the kind of range of views that are in our society more generally. And so if you just look at social media, it's quite easy to feel a little bit kind of like do I dare say anything? Um but then you start chatting to your neighbours, you start chatting to you know my wife's work colleagues and stuff like that, and you realize actually there's a lot of people out there who are saying, What's going on in our world? And I don't necessarily agree with kind of the zeitgeist of whatever the latest thing is um in the media or in social media, particularly. And so I think if we have courage to say our aim is not to be liked in a particular sphere of you know public opinion, then that's okay. If we if our aim is basically to be really liked, um then it's gonna be a really you know a real challenge. Um I guess equally if our aim is to be really hated, that's probably not gonna break it either. Yeah, you get some Christians who just get off on being disliked, and it's like, yes, I'm really blessed because everyone hates me now.
SPEAKER_03Yes, yes. I think I I always say, you know, persecution is our context, but it should never become our complex. There are there are many people for whom it it is it is their complex and they they almost caught it. Um and I I was interested in the in the survey, a lot of Christians responding, and some uh a lot of the unsayable opinions were things like Jesus is Lord. Um and I very much hope that nevertheless um our Christian brothers and sisters are you know confident enough to say Jesus is Lord, even if even if it is considered unsayable in in one way or another. And I don't know, I I wonder whether one of the lessons to learn is that we need a bit of a thicker skin as as Christians. Um and and perhaps we've had it our way for far too long, you know, the Christian worldview being dominant in the West for over a thousand years. Um that that means we are unused to the kind of pushback that Christians around the world and down through history have have historically had. And maybe we're we're needing to learn a bit of courage, perhaps.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's it's something I've often pointed out when questions about kind of the biblical view of sexual ethics comes up, for instance. Um, you know, Christianity was countercultural in the first century. I can we have this kind of assumption that kind of culture has gone just one way and it used to be like you know, incredibly, you know, Christian and now it's not. But but actually holding a kind of biblical view of those things 2,000 years ago would have made you incredibly countercultural.
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SPEAKER_00And and so we're kind of rediscovering that to an extent. Um but you're absolutely right. I think I think maybe we need to have more of a willingness to to say things that we know are not gonna be popular. I think there's a danger, I think, sometimes in Christian circles that basically whenever an issue becomes unsayable, we just we literally you know, we're we're not gonna say anything on that subject because it's controversial. Um I think we need to be wise, and I think we don't just go in to talk about controversial things just to be controversial. But equally, if we're not willing to speak on stuff because we fear that it might engender a reaction, then I think, well, we need to check whose approval we're looking for ultimately.
SPEAKER_03Which is a real revolution, I think, in what evangelism is, because I I I think I I by default have this view of evangelism that it's it's basically you take the temperature of the room and you're instantly able to um kind of ingratiate yourself to this audience and chameleon-like, kind of um, you know, um reflect their values back to themselves and then say, and Jesus, um, which actually at the end of the day, that's that's kind of there's a phrase that describes that in the Bible. It's called fear of man. Um and and I was I was really struck by that um when I was preparing some stuff on Revelation, and um it's the church at Laodicea, isn't it? That is neither hot nor cold, and I will I will spit it out of my mouth. And I was thinking, oh, it's it's room temperature then. And you know, like no one likes a cup of room temperature tea, but if you've got toddlers running around, that's that's the only kind of tea you're ever drinking. It's it's room temperature because you've you've laid it down and you're returning to it several hours later. But room temperature is yeah, you you have uh accommodated the the room. You have set your bar to where the the room's bar is. And Jesus is like, no, that that that is absolutely not the way. And I I just wonder whether we've we've we've become room temperature Christians when actually we we should be prophetically speaking uh an alien message that doesn't sound like it's coming from the left or the right, but but it's coming from above.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely, and I think in some ways we're forced into that at the moment because we're doing stuff online um rather than in person. You know, if you're speaking to a particular audience, it's quite easy, isn't it, to look at your audience and think, ah, this is kind of what's gonna be acceptable, this is what's not gonna be acceptable to say in this particular university, this particular environment or you know, age group or whatever, and then say the stuff that we know that's gonna be popular. Whereas you stick stuff out on the internet and basically anyone can watch it and and you know, you you see that you'll have reactions. So in a in a way that's good because it just means it's much harder to play the room when the room is the world.
SPEAKER_03Yes. Yes. I've I've noticed uh a lot of people have a lot of preachers have said they've appreciated the fact that it's just them and the camera when they're um recording their sermon. They've actually been able to be bolder than they usually are in in person, and and sometimes that means they've been a little bit tone-deaf in the way they've said things. But um, yeah, it's it's we're we are kidding ourselves if we don't think that fear of men and our our massive desire to be liked um doesn't shape what we say and how and how we say it. Um on campus and and with students, have you have you noticed any changes over the years in in in terms of the sorts of questions that people are bringing or the sorts of issues that people think are are important?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think so. I think um I mean I've been doing student ministry for about um 15, 16 years, and uh I guess it was at this time of kind of the the rise of the new atheists when I began. So God delusion just been published, everyone was reading it. And so there was a kind of real obvious hostility towards the Christian faith that you met. And the kind of questions people were asking were the classical objections of, you know, if there's a good God, why does he allow suffering? How could God send people to hell? You know, what about other religions, etc.? Which kind of all assume a certain level of knowledge of the Christian faith to know what your objections should be. Um, Jesus does make exclusive claims and that there is such a thing as hell and so on. So I think um that was the kind of world we lived in. I think we've seen the decline of new atheism. I mean, Richard Dawkins is not the kind of influence that he he was. Um, and you know, I don't meet hardly any students these days who who would kind of express views similar to his, whereas you know, that was really common.
SPEAKER_03Do you think he ever was as influential as Christian evangelists like you and me made him out to be?
SPEAKER_00Um He certainly was more than he is today. So you would meet students who would not necessarily, even having read his book, regurgitate ideas that had become commonplace at the time because his book was quite popular in certain circles. But but at the same time, I still wonder whether we were kind of aiming our events at a niche of kind of angry atheists who engaged in those kind of questions, whilst a lot of students just looked at those questions and went, eh, I'm not really interested. But I think even more so now. So I think the challenge today is that partly because most students have had no kind of Christian background, their parents didn't even have a Christian background, they're not rebelling against the Christianity of their parents, which is what was happening 20 years ago. They're just agnostic and mostly rather than atheistic and and don't know enough of the Christian faith even to know what their objections to it should be. You know, Jesus is the only way, really. Yeah. Um so yeah, I think that has changed. So I think the kind of questions that people are asking today are more life questions. So we kind of reflect that now in some of the titles that we would use. So instead of, you know, why would God allow suffering? Is there any purpose in my pain?
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_00Or instead of how can Jesus be the only way? How can we have harmony in a world of competing truth claims? So those kind of more general questions that people might be asking as they reflect upon culture, questions like, do humans deserve human rights? That's been a talk that was really popular.
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_00So um, yeah, I think there has been a change, I think, in in campus culture in years.
SPEAKER_03And I I I think it can be an opportunity. I I think you can go two ways with that. You can you can see, oh, um, our hearers don't know the first thing about Christianity, therefore I need to start so far back and just you know discuss the concept of is there such a thing as truth or not? And then, you know, by the Friday night, we might get to something about Jesus. Um or or you could take the view, oh, they don't know the first thing about you know Christianity. Well, let's it let's at least send up a flare from this from the very heart of the Christian faith and say, over this way. This is like like whatever your whatever we're trying to help you grope towards, this is it. This is the cent the central thing. Sometimes I think, sometimes I think um we've gotten it wrong. Sometimes I think we've um because people know so little, we start so far back, and and when we just do a talk on, you know, is there such a thing as objective truth, the non-Christian doesn't know you're trying to lead them by the hand to Jesus. They just think you're trying to lead them by the hand to modernism or something, you know. Um, and so yeah, so I'm I'm I'm I'm a big believer in sort of, you know, because people know so little, let's do what, you know, especially in the UK, students are uh are brilliant at getting you know gospels into people's hands and and and saying let's let's crack them open and and get down to brass tacks. Here's Jesus. And I think that there are real opportunities in amidst the confusion, would you say?
SPEAKER_00Absolutely. And I think um, you know, Jesus is incredibly attractive. Um as you show people Jesus in the gospels, that that is magnetic. And as you say, I think sometimes we've we've started so far back, people have kind of objected to what we're saying because they don't know where we're trying to lead them, you know, and um they think we're trying to lead them to something that they don't want to go to, and it's like no. So my I guess my philosophy of how I go about doing a university mission week is we would try and engage with questions that are the kind of questions people are asking. So the title of the talk is not going to be It Is Jesus, because that's not a question that most students are asking on campus. But every talk title in the talk itself, I'd want to bring people to to some aspect of the heart of the gospel to Jesus. I probably do that increasingly as the week goes on. So yeah, you might be really homing in on the resurrection and the cross, you know, towards the end of the week. But but at the same time, I wanted to be doing that from Monday. I don't want to kind of I heard of a mission week that took place in a different part of Europe, and basically Jesus wasn't mentioned until the Friday, literally not mentioned. Um, and you know, most people weren't there by Friday because I just got bored. Yeah, right. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, without Jesus, it's all it's all dull, isn't it? Yeah, yeah. So yeah, so Jesus might not be the heart of the question that's asked, but he's the heart of the answer that you're you're you're giving. And yeah, yeah, that's that's very good. Um so in the midst of all this cancel culture and in the midst of um real tumult in the world and um political views are now, you know, I said on the last podcast that, you know, with the death of God, um, Nietzsche's term, there's a power vacuum. The political becomes sacred. And so politics is this incredibly heated debate between, you know, demonic figures and angelic figures, and it's a heaven or hell discussion all of a sudden. And then entertainment and sport and stuff gets gets raised up to the level of the of the political, um, and everything, everything becomes incredibly preachy. Um how do we do we avoid mentioning the political? Do we avoid wading into these topics that everyone is is is talking about? Um, or if we do engage them, how how do we go about it?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think I think there's a tension there. I think historically a lot of people would have said you don't engage in politics at all. You know, let's leave that to one side. We're here to to present the gospel and and not engage in those issues. And I mean, historically, someone like Billy Graham was an example of that. You know, he was very um clear that he wasn't going to kind of get involved in politics, that wasn't his role. Yeah, he met with you know the presidents of America, I think, all the way through to I can't remember who the last one he met with was, but um so he would engage with politicians, but he would never engage in kind of expressing political views. Um many people say that you know his son Franklin has done the very opposite in that his political views seem to be very obvious and is a problem because of that for many people, because it's now aligned the Christian faith with one particular political party. Um I think there's dangers in both. I think if we align the gospel with one political party or one political view, um we can maybe unnecessarily alienate people of the other political view. And and the gospel doesn't, I think we can come back to that, you know, just align itself with the left or the right politically. Um and it will connect with bits of both and it will challenge bits of both. Uh but equally, I think one of the problems today is that as you say, because politics has been so elevated to kind of fill this void that that God needs to fill almost, um politics is no longer just a political view. For many people, it is a belief system, it's a way of viewing the whole world. Um, it's it's a way of understanding their hopes for the future and so on. And so as an evangelist, we've got to engage in people's worldview, we've got to engage in where people what people are thinking. And so to say I'm not going to talk about politics in the current climate is basically saying I'm not going to engage in anyone else's worldview, which as an evangelist, I'd say is wrong. You know, 15 years ago, we were engaging with the worldview of people like Richard Dawkins and and the new atheism, because that was a worldview that many people would would espouse and adhere to. Um, but behind a lot of what's happening today, there is a worldview, there is a clear philosophy, and I think we kind of need to engage in that um to show that the gospel is better.
SPEAKER_03Yes, yeah. And and maybe uh going back to that, the way that we engaged the new atheism, I think there were there were better ways and worse ways of doing that. I think some of the better ways of doing that was to acknowledge um what was good about the new atheism, um, and and to say, look, the the God in whom the new atheists do not believe certainly does not exist. And hallelujah, because of that. Um, that the the the power in the sky that they're shaking their fist at um does not exist. And we are and if such a creature, such a super being within the created order, if that was what God was, then we would be anti theists too. And I I think some of the Some of the better engagements with with the new atheism not only reacted against it, but also identified some of the very natural, human, and correct impulses that were you know behind it. Are there ways that we can do the same as as we look out at uh at the political turmoil going on today?
SPEAKER_00Absolutely. I think one of the things that's hard is labeling what's going on in some ways, because the moment you say it's this, someone says no, it's not. So um uh so there are all sorts of kind of labels and words that get banded around neo-Marxism, cultural Marxism, you know, critical race theory and so on. And um they're all getting at something, but the moment we start labelling it, you know, someone's gonna say, you know, I'm not that. But there are so I think it's better to take ideas and maybe um commonly repeated kind of concepts and terminology and engage with those. So uh you looked at this the other week, the idea of privilege, for instance. It's very easy just to immediately kind of throw out any talk of white privilege and say, you know, this is all rubbish. Um, but at the same time, it is helpful to say, well, actually, yeah, life isn't fair, is it? Um, and that helpfully acknowledges that for some people there are real disadvantages that they face. And how do we make sense of that?
SPEAKER_03And what should we do? You know, we who are strong should bear with the failings of the weak, Romans 15. Um, that that actually, you know, two two 2000 years earlier, um, Paul had beaten us to the punch and and said there there are privileges that people have. He he was he was loath to um identify them purely with race, obviously, but um, but there there are there are such things as privileges, and what should we do with them? We should sacrifice them for the sake of those with less. Um so yeah, I identifying um yeah, those those kernels that can that can be helpful, can't it?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, kind of similar to that, there's a real emphasis on listening to people's stories um and and engaging and the need to be empathetic and understand where people are coming from. And I think on one level, we're gonna say, absolutely, you know, surely as evangelists, we need to be listening to where people are coming from, seeking to really understand not only what people think, but why people might think the way they think. Um and but at the same time, you know, there's a danger in that, isn't there, when we say basically we can never question someone's story because this is their lived experience, you know, it must be objectively true. Um, every everything they're saying. So we kind of need to identify, but also push back and challenge where where challenge is needed.
SPEAKER_03Yes, yes. What what what is um Dan Stranger's uh phrase about that? Um uh what is what did he talk about? Um it's sort of a sort of a cross and resurrection movement. Um I'll I'll Google it. I'll Google it in a in a in a second and and who knows how I'll edit this video later. I might I might I might seem like it's on the tip of my tongue, but um yeah, so so we can look we can look out at some of these issues and and we can so what what what you're making a case for is okay, these are belief systems. And interestingly, you know, Islam is a belief system that is also very political. I mean, it's it's you you cannot there is no sacred secular divide within Islam. The sacred secular you know divide is is the gift of Christianity to the world. You look at you look at other religions, and within Islam, that is also a political ideology. Um when you look at Hinduism or Hindu nationalist movements that are like, well, of course the the religious and the political is entirely bound up with one another. Um and so it shouldn't surprise us actually that that people are taking on political views as though they have existential significance. Um so we do want to we do want to engage with that. Um how do we do that without being a kind of a party political mouthpiece?
SPEAKER_00Um I think that's the challenge. Um so the danger is that we just look like we are the opposite political opinion. I think um for me, one of the things I'm trying to do, and I don't always get this right, um, and I yeah, um there's always a danger um that we we we do do that. But I think one of the things I try and do is is challenge to extend both ends of the political spectrum. So for instance, if we're only challenging you know what we perceive as the far left, then the danger is people perceive that what we're obviously advocating is you know the right or the or the far right. Right. Um so to be able to say, well, actually there's a there's a danger with with both these ends. So I guess something I was thinking about last week was um the letter that was signed by was it 150 um distinguished people, um, some of whom they unsigned themselves from it when they realized who else was on it. But um this letter basically concerned for freedom of speech. And I guess you'd look at that and some people say, well, the desire for and the concern for freedom of speech is a concern that generally people on the right are kind of talking about a lot.
SPEAKER_03Um and people on the left historically it has it had been a left thing.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, but yeah, but but in the current climate. But then on the left, you've got people saying, actually, um, you know, we need to be compassionate, uh, we need to to love people, um, we need equality, and and we're fearful of freedom of speech because we see how it's used sometimes to basically be really hurtful um as an excuse to be able to be obnoxious. Um and so to be able to challenge both, and so actually we need you know love without truth is is problematic, but then truth without love is problematic, and and actually we need to bring both together, which is exactly what the Bible does. So the Bible challenges those who on maybe the left are saying, you know, we don't need freedom of speech um because we just need to be compassionate, but equally it challenges those on the right who say, let's just say as many obnoxious things as possible because we can. Um and and actually it's it's presenting a third way. So I think the challenge is to be able to say, let's let's look at both ends of a political spectrum, let's identify where we can, let's challenge where we can, and let's try and show that the gospel is neither left nor right politically, but it is showing a unique way that Jesus is different to both.
SPEAKER_03Does it help um that I mean you you do so much of your um mission in Eastern Europe? Um, because I I'm I'm challenged by and helped by brothers who um have experienced communism in l in living memory and who now, perhaps in places like Hungary or in Russia, um, are experiencing sort of hard man kind of um alternatives to that as well. And there's there are a lot of Christians um who kind of look over to Western Europe and look look over to the states and places and say, okay, sometimes you Christians, you're happy when you know the left looks silly, but watch out because you don't want the hard right either. Um and actually and and the gospel is is is something different. Um you know, does it does it help you that you're you're you're sort of traversing a whole bunch of different cultures that have uh different experiences of left and right?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, absolutely. And it was really helpful chatting to a friend of mine who um leads the student ministry in Serbia, and he was just saying, you know, you need to be really careful that you don't attach the gospel to one political view because you can really alienate others. And and in a part of the world where there's been massive tensions um between countries, um, if you if you view you know the gospel as being aligned to um my you know political views, you can really alienate people, particularly in other parts of that um Balkan region. And I think they've shown actually that by keeping the gospel central, by not attaching it to one view or another, they can have real unity. And you know, to see the student leader in Serbia sitting down, best friends with the student leader in Albania, two people who, for every good reason, should hate each other given the histories of those nations and what's happened in those nations, you see actually this is what the gospel can do. Um, but they recognize that there is a danger that um that you know um we can too easily um jump on a bandwagon and and then regret it in years to come.
SPEAKER_03That's powerful. That's powerful. So um let's talk about uh uh something that you did on on Facebook uh I guess a couple of weeks ago now, sort of speaking into the the issue of statues. Um uh after the um the statue of a slaveholder was taken down in Bristol and thrown into the river. Um this was on everyone's minds, and Mozi the great evangelist was thinking what?
SPEAKER_00Um yeah, so I I guess I was just thinking over what was going on and seeing this kind of debate. So you've got on the one heart set side people um and many Christian friends, you know, celebrating that you know all of these symbols of oppression were being destroyed, and this was a really wonderful thing. And then, you know, other equally good Christian friends um saying this is absolutely terrible and we're getting rid of our history and we shouldn't be getting rid of statues and you know, put them back. And and I'm looking at that saying, hang on, yeah, these are these are people who love Jesus, um, but have very different opinions about this issue. Um, and I guess the temptation is to wade in and take one side over the other. Um and I was trying to think, okay, well, what are the underlying issues here? And is there something that can be said into this situation? Um, so I was trying to be really careful not to say yes we should or no we shouldn't. In fact, I I said that this is not ultimately what I'm writing about. Um I'm not of the opinion that you can never take down a statue. You know, my my ancestors lived in Estonia, and you know, the Estonians quite liked removing symbols of Soviet oppression. So um so yeah, that's not saying you should never do that. But equally there's you know arguments about the question then how far do you go? Um and I guess the underlying assumption is if you're going to divide the world into the oppressed and the oppressors, um which is kind of very much the underlying kind of belief system behind what's going on today. You're either oppressed or you're an oppressor. There's some real tensions there when you find that some people are oppressed and oppressors. So there was this fascinating situation where Sadiq Khan had basically said that he was going to um have an inquiry into the removal of statues and the renaming of certain places in London that were linked with oppression. Um but just I think two years before he had revealed, or unveiled rather, this statue of Millicent Forsett, who was a suffragette, who obviously, as a woman standing against the oppression of women, was very much a symbol of the oppressed speaking against the oppressors. But as it turned out, she was also involved in the Boer War in South Africa and led to her actions led to the deaths of thousands of black Africans in that situation. And so in that situation, as a white person, she was also the oppressor.
SPEAKER_03Right, right. What do we do when we mean she wasn't just a sinless saint? You mean there aren't the world doesn't just divide into heroes and villains.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and so so there's a challenge, isn't it? So so where do we where do we go? You know, if we're going to um start purging history of those who cause oppression, I mean ultimately you purge history of everyone. Um uh so and which which might be what we end up with. Um so whether or not it's right to pull down a statue, the underlying assumption is this idea of oppressed oppressor, and what does that reveal about human nature? So then I was I just read the Gulag Archipelago um by Alexander Solzchnietsen, uh, just fascinating. And the the reason why I read the book was um I I've always used that wonderful quote about the dividing line between good and evil going down the heart of every human being. And I thought, well, I can't really use this quote without reading the context. Unfortunately, the context Don't convict me, Matsu.
SPEAKER_03It's a it's a long book. I'm gonna have to.
SPEAKER_00It's an audio book that takes 24 hours to listen to. So I basically spent the first half of lockdown in a Soviet jail. Um but um so I read this book and I just thought, but actually, in the context, it's even more powerful. Um and you know, he talks about before we literally throw people um out, as we've always discard people, we we come up short as we reflect on our own lives and who we are. Um so I basically wrote this a piece. I just filmed a really short video, like literally in kind of five minutes, just um before I went to bed, stuck it online, and like the next day, this had gone to a degree viral. I mean, I think the post got shared 400 times, the video got I think about 10,000 views within a couple of days, um, and loads of comments. And I think what was what was kind of encouraging in some ways was that many of our friends who are not Christian were saying, actually, this is really interesting. That really helpfully kind of makes sense of what's going on. Um and and it was also pointing people ultimately to to Jesus.
SPEAKER_03How did it do that? Like, like, yeah, yeah, make make that step for us. So imagine you get into a conversation and you and your friend you know agrees with Solzhenitson, yes, we're all mixed bags and there's there's evil within us. What do you what do you then say?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so I think my jump from Solzhenitsyn is to say, well, actually, Solzhenitsyn was really articulating an idea that was expressed 2,000 years before. Um, and then I looked at Mark 7, where Jesus talks about out of the heart come evil thoughts and so on. Um actually this is a very Christian idea that that the problem of the world is not external, it's not simply in the structures around us, uh, but it's also within us, in our hearts. And therefore, if you want to change the world, we can't do that simply by changing structures. It's not that we we don't get involved in politics, but but actually it's people's hearts and lives that need to be changed. And and that is what the Christian faith offers, it offers internal transformation. And so actually, I finished by just talking about John Newton, you know, the slave trader who came to know Christ, the beautiful hymn, amazing grace, um, and this idea that actually in Jesus people really can be radically transformed from the inside, um, which is I think a wonderful hope. And and I think one of the things I've been really struck by recently is that there's a lot of anger, but there's not a lot of hope that people can change. So I was just reading um uh So You Want to Talk About Race, um, by a woman whose name I can't pronounce right now, sorry. Um but um but I was encouraged to read that by someone who was disagreeing with me um on a conversation we're having on social media. And it just struck me in in the beginning, she was saying, you know, there are people who are out and out racists who really hate people. Um this book isn't designed for them because I can't do miracles. And it just really struck me, her admission that actually, if you are really an out and out racist that hates people of colour, like I can't I can't do anything for you. Um and I just recently read um the book by Tom Terrence, his biography, um Consumed by Hate, Redeemed by Love. Yeah, a man who was an out and out racist, a member of the Ku Klux Klan, you know, America's most wanted criminal at one stage, or Mississippi's most wanted criminal, who really was transformed, uh, not by magic but by a miracle of God's grace. And so saying, actually, no, we do we do believe in a God who can really change people's lives. And not just, you know, in a small way, but in a really, really radical way.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah. I think that's a um that's a a really good example of subversive fulfillment. I've uh I've I've googled Googled what Dan Stranger's phrase was, subversive fulfillment, in in which um you you do end up saying, okay, so what these people are grasping towards is good, but you've got to actually subvert their initial desires and and and show how they're they're seeking that goal in the wrong way. And then actually in the gospel, there is a there is a fulfillment of that hope. So it is a cross and resurrection subversive fulfillment kind of um movement. And I I think I think there's a wrong way of of the church kind of jumping on bandwagons. Um, you know, it it could be it could be really easy to simply, oh, everyone's talking about race. Let let us now talk about race, um, without a caring about racial reconciliation in our own churches and figuring out, oh, what would that look like in my church here and now? Um and so the danger of sort of virtue signaling and and that sort of thing. But then there's there's the danger also of kind of saying, yeah, jumping on the bandwagon as opposed to saying, hey, um, this book's been saying this stuff for thousands of years, and it's really cool that the world is catching up to this idea of racial harmony. That's great. Um, but the the the world is reflecting something that the Bible's been on about prior to that. Um so so not jumping on the bandwagon that the world has, you know, has has jumped on, but actually going back to the beginning and saying, actually, in in Jesus, there is a racial harmony and a racial reconciliation beyond anything that the anti-racist movements of this world has ever dreamt of. Um because that yeah, my my my fear is not just with the race issue, but with all sorts of issues. Um yeah, the the the church just jumps on a bandwagon that's already heading somewhere and gives it a light, you know, lightly baptizes it and off we go.
SPEAKER_00Oh, the Bible also says something about this kind of thing.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00And not engaging in a deeper, deeper way. It's interesting. I I think it was Tom Holland's, I can't remember um it was in an interview, but basically saying, um Tom Holland, the historian, um that uh um we wouldn't have got woke if it wasn't for the gospel, if it wasn't for Christianity.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_00So all of these kind of issues that we now passionately are concerned about, yeah, we're concerned about because of Christianity. But one of the problems is we've detached the fruit from the root. So we take the fruit of a Christian worldview, whether it's this desire for equality or or whatever, but detached from the root of the gospel, it basically becomes kind of God in itself. Yes and and then it becomes this absolute, but it was never designed to be the ultimate, yeah, it was it was designed to be the fruit of something bigger than itself. And so I think you see that in the battle between freedom of speech and say compassion or equality.
unknownRight.
SPEAKER_00Um, both of those things are a fruit of the Christian worldview in the West. But um, when you detach either of them from the gospel, they can become means ultimately of actually oppressing others, ironically.
SPEAKER_03Yes, yeah. I think I think about the ideals of the French Revolution, um, and we're we're we're being reminded more and more of uh the reign of terror. Um, but you know, the French Revolution is kind of summarized as, you know, you know, liberty, equality, and fraternity. Um But that that kind of pursuit was was very much the fruit of the gospel working on France over centuries and centuries and centuries. And then, but take God out of the equation, and those things totally pull against one another. You know, liberty and equality very famously work in different directions because if I'm free to do what I'm whatever I want to do, then the outcome of that will be wildly in inequal, unequal to the outcome of somebody else doing that. And if that's the way we're pulling apart, how on earth are we going to get fraternity? You know, these these three ideals are just so they're actually beautifully Christian. Yeah. But you've got to do the subversive fulfillment and you've and you and you've got to say, no, you cannot have this without Jesus. But in Jesus, um, he liberates us, sits us all down at the same table together, even with our crunchy differences that are not smooshed together, but are allowed to be, you know, the the particular differences that we have, as we are all brothers and sisters, you know, sharing in the same meal. Um, and and actually, you know, come to Jesus, you get liberty, the equality, and fraternity. Apart from Jesus, we just pull against one another, and those three ideals actually become competitors of one another. Um, but you know, you've you've you've you've got to do a lot of work of subverting it and then fulfilling it.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely. But I was really struck by it's I can't remember which of Alistair McGrath's books it's in, but he quotes um a woman who's being um executed at the guillotine in the French Revolution, Madame Roland, and she um as she goes up to be executed, um she says, Liberty, liberty, what evils have been committed in thy name? Um and this idea, you take this this idea which is good, but then it becomes this this means of oppression because you've detached it from where it came.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, exactly, exactly. So Marty, what's your what's what's your hope? So um are you gonna move into political commentary? Is it are you gonna be a pundit? Um as you've been reflecting on these things moving forwards, are you gonna do more Facebook posts like this? What do you what do you think are the the pros and cons of wading into this area?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think um it's something I've been reflecting on. Um it's interesting there are some comments people say this is great, do more of this. Other people saying, shut up, you don't know what you're on about. Um you shouldn't be speaking on these things. Um, go back to to doing what you do best. Um so so so I guess there's a tension there. Um and um I think I'm not Sure, I I've never I've never had this kind of clear kind of like this is what the next five years are going to look like in ministry. I guess I've just kind of responded to stuff as things have happened. But I guess one of the things I want to do is just say that is there something we can say uniquely about Jesus and to show that the gospel is good, and can we connect that with what's going on? Um and so to the extent that that that comes up and and that seems like a legitimate thing we can do, that is something I'd I'd love to do. I think there's a danger we just kind of get stuck on one issue. Um and there are all sorts of issues that we want to engage with. Um obviously in recent weeks, the issue of equality, Black Lives Matter, everything else has been particularly kind of headline news. Um I mean there's not been a lot in headline news this year, really, is it? It's just like coronavirus, coronavirus, and then Black Lives Matter, like the two things um in seven months. Um but you know, there will be other things that come up. But I think trying to say something, but equally just recognising the dangers. So um you know, there's always the temptation to just want to wade in just for the sake of a political discussion. And so I think it's always a good question to ask is to say what's my purpose in doing this and what will it achieve?
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um and can I do and as a as a Christian and as an evangelist, what can I uniquely bring to this conversation that isn't already being contributed by a million other people on Twitter angrily shouting back and forwards? Yes. And I guess that was what I felt with Statue the Statue's post. I felt there's all sorts of debate going on here, but is there something I can say that is different to what is already being said? Um and and in that situation I felt, yeah.
SPEAKER_03So those are some good questions that we should all ask um before we kind of make our announcements as you know, we're all treating ourselves like we are the ambassador, and you know, my daily press briefing as we tweet it out to the world.
SPEAKER_00Can I throw it back the other way to you guys? Because obviously you did this post about um Dominic Cummings. Um that was the other news.
SPEAKER_03I remember him, yes.
SPEAKER_00But but again, that's a situation where you know, even amongst my Christian friends, there would have been a really strong diversity of opinion. Um the the Dominic defenders and the Let's Kill Dominic campaigns.
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SPEAKER_00Um and and you did a really helpful post that that got shared very widely in response to that. What was, I guess, what was your thinking and trying to how to respond to that kind of highly political situation as a Christian?
SPEAKER_03I think I'm I'm a bit odd, but because I saw it was so charged, I thought to myself, hello, what's going on here? Um there were I mean, there were clearly um it clearly touched a nerve. I mean, at the very minimum, it touched a nerve. I think we're we're we're talking about you know levels of hysteria that were probably brought on by lockdown and and all that kind of stuff. We're all staring at the same four walls for however many weeks. Um there were yeah, there were there was a craze about the issue, I felt. And so obviously, you know, the the fearful side of you says, therefore, shut up, Glenn. Um but um but then the the more antagonistic side of me uh thought to myself, no, there's there's there's something deeper than this. And I guess like I what I wanted to do in the post was just point out um all the standards we are holding Dominic Cummings to. And what do you notice about all the standards that we're holding Dominic Cummings to? You know, um uh there is a law above us, and nobody is above the law. Okay, that's interesting. Um, the spirit of the law is more important than the letter of the law. Like, and people were people were saying that just commonly, and you're like, oh, hello. Um hypocrisy is intolerable. Like, well, that's that's interesting. Um, self-justification is ugly. Um everyone was saying, you know, he should just admit his own errors. That's not a weakness, that's a strength, admitting your own errors. You're like, oh, that's interesting. Um, you know, the leaders should be held to a higher account and they should serve others, and you know, and even if he's the innocent one in this, he should probably fall on his sword and sacrifice himself for the good of the for the good of the people. You're like, hang on a minute. I've heard that before. It's like it's it's entirely Christian. And so, really, really, I mean, I mean, Tom Howen's Dominion has kind of helped me massively in that, just just to see that the water we swim in is utterly Christian. And whether you're right or left, globalist, nationalist, wherever you're coming from from in the political spectrum, you you are judging everything through the spectacles of the Bible. And and you know, I think one of my phrases was, you know, we're basically hurling proof texts at one another. We've just forgot the references. Um, and that that it's it's that's been my view for a while, you know, when when we were um debating whether to bomb Syria or not, literally, on the one side, there were people who were just sounding entirely like the Sermon on the Mount, and people on the other side, uh, and so turn the other cheek and let's be pacifists, and on the other side, they were sounding entirely like Romans 13 and Augustine's just war tradition. And no one said anything that wasn't utterly Christian, like whichever side that you know, we are all within this thing called Christianity, like tearing each other apart, using standards that are totally Christian, but without Jesus, those standards make uh you know no sense whatsoever. Who cares if you're a hypocrite? If you know, like, yeah, Jesus made us care about hypocrisy in a way that you know ancient peoples just didn't care. Um, why should leaders serve others? Like, um, apart from the Jesus story, um, you don't you don't get leaders serving other people. Um, where do you get this idea about the spirit of the law and the lead of the law, etc., etc.? Um, and to the degree that you walk away from the roots of Christianity, you're not allowed to have the fruits. Sorry. Um, so that that was kind of what I was trying to do and trying to tap into this meaning crisis that we have. We we massively have a meaning crisis. We don't have an overarching narrative that we live our lives by, and we're just turning on each other, lashing out. And evermore I'm seeing it's either come back to Jesus or it's this hell of your own devising. Which which will it be? And and you know, it sounds like a bigoted fundamentalism, doesn't it, to say it's Jesus or the pit, it's Jesus or hell. Um, but I I just think even politically, historically, sociologically, that's just true. Um, to the degree that you walk away from Jesus, you'll you're walking into just the the hatred and the self-justification and tearing one another apart. So that that's that's my angle on these things, I think.
SPEAKER_00But I think it was so helpful because it kind of showed that, you know, where there's a temptation just to wade in and kind of express one's political views. And I think the thing is we all do probably have kind of a hunch when it comes to any of these situations of you know what we think and you know, yeah, one way or the other, but actually to kind of almost resist the temptation just to kind of say what everyone else is saying, or at least what half people are saying, yeah, and to try and connect with both sides and to see where it's just coming from. And I think that point you know that Tom Holland makes so brilliantly in Dominion is that you know we're not in one sense everyone's been saying, you know, for the last 20 years in terms of like mystiology and mission, like we're in this post-Christian society and you know, we're no longer shaped by the Bible. And to an extent, yes, but to an extent, absolutely not, because you know, we're just we're so much more Christian in our outlook and sense than we think.
SPEAKER_03Um which is why I think those those human rights talks that you mentioned really resonate with people because we we just take it for granted, we take it as an as an article of faith, um, that ever every human has near infinite dignity and worth and is equal in some sense, which is the most magical thinking in the imaginable if if you don't believe in the Jesus story.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Absolutely. And it's just um I mean it's interesting chatting to a couple of students. Uh the first time I did the talk was at Leeds University, and a couple of students had literally come from a lecture on human rights, and they were like, oh, we came from a lecture and now we saw another talk on human rights and we came to your talk. They said um no one ever said anything it had to do with no one that no one ever said it had anything to do with Christianity. Like literally, they've been in this like course on human rights for kind of weeks. Yeah, and no one had kind of thought what was the philosophical basis to this idea at all.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah. And Tom Tom Holland says that that just that that demonstrates the success of Christianity, that no one thinks it's anything Christian, it's it's just the water we swim in, you know.
SPEAKER_00But if you read, you know, you bell no Harari Sapiens, you know, he's got on uh yeah, over your left shoulder, there it is. Yeah, well placed. Yeah, that that leads to lots of conversations when you're doing live talks. Someone says, I've noticed you have sapiens. What do you think about that book? Yeah, yeah. Um uh yeah, but to you know, to to look at that book, he would just say, Look, look, this is a uniquely Christian idea. It's it's a myth, you know, it's not true because he doesn't believe it is true, but but yeah, he's very consistent to agree to because he's saying actually, you know, you can't really have this without the the philosophy that underlies it.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah. He's saying God is a myth and human rights are a myth. Um and he's saying they're not true. On the other hand, you've got Tom Holland, who's over my right shoulder somewhere. Um he you know, he says God is a myth and human rights are a myth in a much richer, deeper sense that doesn't mean um never happened.
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SPEAKER_03Um and you know, we'll we will we will see where that journey takes Tom Holland, but uh he he he's leaning in the opposite direction, I think, to to Harari, but they're both making that same point, you know.
SPEAKER_00I mean the the irony to an agree with Harari is that obviously he kind of says it's a good myth. You know, it's it's good that we've got this idea of human rights and he's glad that we live in a world where it exists. He also acknowledges that myths only work if the majority of the population don't think that they're myths. Yeah. And so by writing one of the world's bestsellers telling everyone that human rights is a myth, surely he's kind of undermining the very basis of Western civilization that he kind of likes.
SPEAKER_03It well, it reminds me of um, you know, um uh Brett R Brett Weinstein, um, who did a debate with Alistair McGrath recently on Unbelievable. And and obviously Brett Weinstein is part of the intellectual dark web and he's an evolutionary psychologist, he's an atheist, um, and he and he says we need something to sit in the place that religion once held. Obviously, we can't you know believe in the metaphysical truth claims of religion anymore. I I honestly don't think he's ever spent more than 30 seconds examining the metaphysical truth claims of Christianity. I honestly don't, you know, people, you know, it that's just a feature of academic life and specialisms. Um but you know, he says obviously we must we must reject the metaphysics of religion, but we need something to take its place. But Brett Weinstein himself is a real example of what it is that takes the place of Christianity could well tear you apart, as as it did, you know, at his college where he was teaching in Evergreen in in Washington State. And he's he's now you know you've got a very fascinating podcast, looking out at a world tearing itself apart. And I'd just love some time with Brett Weinstein to say, yeah, man, what is this thing that's gonna take the place? Because time is running out, or maybe we should just go back to to this thing. It's it seems to have worked. Yeah. And therefore, and therefore, let's just breach our hearts out, actually. Um, yes, we cannot help but touch on the political, because A, the political is the religious for for so many people who we're talking to. Uh, and and B, you know, the political has been shaped by the Jesus story for 2,000 years. So we we can't help but say things that touch on the political. But also let's just preach our hearts out because like this this meaning crisis is serious and the world's gonna tear itself apart without Jesus.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely. And you know, we'll we'll take whatever issue that is there to kind of connect people to the gospel. But I think the key is we want to start there, but actually want to take people to to to Jesus, and and we can we can do that in all sorts of ways. And I think um that yeah, it's the model of the book of Acts, isn't it? You know, you can start in any different place, but every sermon in the book of Acts starts where people are at, but it it leads people to Jesus. Yes. And that's what we kind of want to do with and I think the beauty is we can show that we can literally do that with with anything. Yes, yes because the gospel is the story of what God's doing in the whole world. So there's nothing outside or disconnected from it.
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SPEAKER_00And I think it's a helpful discipleship thing as well, isn't it, for Christians to see, oh yeah, there's there's no issues that kind of fall outside the realm of you know the gospel. Right. Everything's connected and and therefore I can think Christianly about everything.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. And actually, I was I was preaching on Acts 4 um last Sunday, and you know, it it talks about there are Sadducees there, and as Paul was preaching about the resurrection of Jesus, the Far the Pharisees were you know sort of upset about the Jesus bit. The Sadducees were upset about the resurrection bit, and then there's the the the temple guards, and there are all these factions that are sort of fighting it out within Israel. And and it it was just interesting to think that those were also political factions, those were also sociological movements, um, as as well as you know, theological movements. And Peter and Paul, they knew how to use that at times. You know, Paul, when he's on trial, he sees, he spots that there's some Pharisees and some Sadducees, so he raised, you know, he raises the issue of the resurrection of the dead to start a fight between them because that served the gospel. So interesting that the the nouse of the disciples um was not just you know that they preached the gospel and therefore all the other political machinations they didn't care about. Actually, they were wise to that and they were able to use that for gospel purposes.
SPEAKER_00And I think that's really helpful, isn't it? Because you see that there's a real there are real tensions and conflict. You know, um Douglas Murray in um The Madison Crowds helpfully kind of shows people think that there's this kind of united, kind of joined up thinking about where we're heading in this progressive culture.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_00And he says, but actually it's gonna eat itself alive because you've got trans rights people on one side, you've got feminists on another, and you can see it right now before our eyes.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um, it's yeah, and so so you you've kind of got a biblical example there, haven't you, where you've got two very strongly held views, and they're able to just stand back and say, hang on a minute, like this doesn't work, does it?
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00What yeah, go on. What kind of worldview could you have that could bring together all of these desires and concerns and ultimately fulfill them, but in like you say, a subversive way?
SPEAKER_03Yeah. It's an interesting book, Madness of Crowds, because you know Douglas Murray's got got this sort of analogy that he keeps using. It was it was like the train was pulling into the station in the 1990s, and all the race issues and the gender issues and the sexuality issues were perfectly that that was fine, it was settled, and then the train went careering through the station and just sort of you know crashed on through. And I I kept on thinking as I was reading that, well, actually, what if the problem was a bit earlier than that?
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_03What if we what if we went off the rails a little bit earlier than that? And that that might explain the fact that we we we weren't just pulling into as a station of rest in the 1990s and now we've gone careering through into things. Um, yeah. And and reading with a Tom Holland kind of spectacles on, I think we went off the rails before then.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. But I think what's really helpful, I mean, the best bit for me in that book was just his bit about forgiveness. Where you sort of we've we've kept some vestiges of a Christian worldview in terms of this idea of guilt. But we've lost the idea of redemption and forgiveness. And you know, what do we do in a culture like that? And you see it played out on social media as people lose their jobs over things that they posted 20 years ago and stuff like that.
SPEAKER_03Brilliant. Michael Otts, how can people catch up with you, read more of your stuff, see some of these uh videos on Facebook, perhaps?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. So um, so yeah, if you find me on Facebook, I am Michael Otts OTS. I have a very liberal friendship policy. Um if you look at it. Even I qualify, yeah. Yeah, yeah, even Glenn is the friend. Um uh I've got a YouTube channel um that's kind of increasingly getting a few more videos on it, so that's just youtube.com slash Michael Otts. Um, I've got a website, Michael Otts.com, um, and uh you can go there. And I've written three books. If you um Google them, I'm sure you'll find them. And I'm sure 10 of those will do you a good deal.
SPEAKER_03They always do a good deal. Michael Ucks, thank you so much for joining us. Thank you.