Hello and welcome to the live cast. My name is Glenn Scrivener, so glad to have your company. And over in Crowborough in East Sussex, there is also the great Paul Feasy. How are you doing today, Paul?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I'm not too bad, thanks.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it's a bit uh gray and miserable here, but um, you know, it's all good. Uh we are with somebody who I am quite certain is experiencing much better weather uh than we over than we are, way over in uh California. We've got Scott Dunford uh with us. He is the co-host of the excellent podcast, the missions podcast. Uh he's also the lead church planter for Redeemer Church in Fremont. Uh hello, Scott. Tell us, what is the weather like where you are?
SPEAKER_01Well, the weather in California is kind of boring. It's always sunny here. So I'm actually in Asian California, and in the winter it it does feel a little bit like England. Um, but uh but yeah, the weather is is is beautiful.
SPEAKER_02Um this is a lot of waggling on the tea, which is a uh a golf term for people who don't know. Um as we consider um an issue that uh we began with last week, uh we um tried to shine a little bit of a spotlight on to uh some of the issues that are happening in Xinjiang province, in China, and especially among uh Uyghur Muslims. And uh and so we reached out to find people who um have experience in this area just so that as Christians we can understand more of what's going on in the world and um so that as concerned believers we can reach out in prayer to God and um have uh an informed prayer life about some of these matters. So um, Scott Dunford, uh you were you were very um gracious in offering us uh your time. Uh can you tell us a little bit about uh where your interest in China and perhaps in particular Xinjiang province began?
SPEAKER_01I was a youth pastor in the Midwest, uh that that's in the state of Wisconsin, and uh and or actually uh in Michigan. I grew up in Wisconsin, we moved to Michigan, and most of the people in Michigan, you know, they're they're blue-collar factory workers, farmers, uh, don't leave the state a lot. And um and I had this great vision. I had I had gone to Bethlehem Baptist Church and where John Piper, which I'm sure you're familiar with, you know, has done such a great job of mobilizing people for missions. So I had this big vision of like, okay, I'm gonna get these high school students to think about missions. And uh after I had been there a few years and gained a little bit of trust, we decided to do something really intrepid and uh decided to take our youth group and college ministry over to China. And uh we just to visit to visit some missionaries we knew there to just get an understanding of what God was doing there and the needs there and kind of expose our young people to the world. And uh it was great. Um the the team we worked with, they basically just put us around Chinese people all the time. And uh those relationships were so important to us understanding. But I had a moment when I was walking in the early morning, the sun comes up very early in Beijing, because this goes into our you know, our broader discussion, but China's desire to bring all of China into like one country unified, they have one time zone for a landmass, the size of you know the United States. And um, so Beijing and Xinjiang both are eight o'clock in the morning at the same time, even though the sun's up really early in Beijing and then comes up far later in the West. And so it's four in the morning, I'm jet lagging, we're walking, and I'm just seeing a sea of people, even at four in the morning, as far as I could see, just uh so many people packing the streets. And it just hit me uh in a very dramatic way that those people know as much about Christ as I knew at that time about Confucius and uh as a believer that that unsettled me and I couldn't shake it and came back to the states uh and just began devouring everything I could read about China and I began to discover wow, it's not just the Han Chinese people, but there's all these minority peoples, and some of the people groups are are massive, you know, 10, 12 million people uh in these considered tiny people groups, and one of those people groups that just kept so I started praying about the people groups and um and kind of identified some of the biggest ones that didn't have any gospel witness, and the one that came kept coming to my mind, and it was probably something just as foolish as like beautiful colors that they were. I, you know, I don't really I can't I can't speak to like why I kept being drawn to to this people group, but I just began focusing my prayer more and more on the Uyghur people, and um and and and as a guy kind of got a hold of our hearts, it led us to to make some you know pretty drastic steps to uh to move our entire family. I got four children at that time they were very young. Uh, of course, my wife and and we left our ministry in Michigan and moved across the ocean and um settled into life in in uh in China. So uh that's kind of how the Lord did it. I mean, it was just one kind of step after another and exploring, and then the Lord kind of got a hold of our hearts as we began learning and studying about these different groups. What kind of years were you there for? We we came in the Olympics, and so it was 2008, which was a great time to be there. Uh uh, it was chaotic and beautiful and crazy, and also a time of real opening. And it's and if you understand China's history, uh it's pretty cyclical in some ways, which kind of fits the eastern mind, you know, in that uh there's there's open periods and closed periods, and even in ancient history, you know, the Tong dynasty in which it was super open, and we think of the Silk Road, it was thrived during the Tong dynasty, and it thrived during the Han Dynasty, but then you have you know these other dynasties, the Song Dynasty, the you know, the Qin dynasty, which things kind of shut down. And uh that was a time when things were really open, and uh and you know, a lot of things were happening. There's a lot of freedom, a lot of even religious freedom. Um, people were being pretty open and sharing their faith, even in place like Beijing. Uh, but then um things began to change, and uh and really seeing kind of an uptick in in persecution, an uptick in shutting things down, and then particularly uh uh a real harsh focus uh toward the Uyghur minorities and um in in Xinjiang province. So we were there kind of during a unique time, but also a time when um I think a lot of what we're seeing now started to take place.
SPEAKER_03What was what was um Can you tell us a bit about what what it was like uh you know what the people were like there? I mean, uh tell us a bit. I mean, did you you you m spent some time then with the the Ouija community? Um can you give us a sense of what they're like as a people? Uh I mean we we've been hearing stories about Ouija Muslims. Is it just a Muslim community or is there more to it than that?
SPEAKER_01Or so so historically, uh so the Uyghurs are are are Turkic Muslim people group. Um and you know, we tend to think of Turkey uh as the country of Turkey. Um, but historically, the Turkic peoples really lived in the same area as where the Mongolians are now. And uh and so they were kind of a semi-nomadic people, and as the rise of the Mongol Empire uh was taking place, or the Mongol tribes, even before there was an empire, they began pushing other people groups out of their region. And so the Uyghurs started settling into northern, what we call today northern China, Xinjiang, but also kind of spread out across those steppes, you know. So what we think of today as Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, Kazakhstan, uh, Kyrgyzstan. I mean, a lot of that those were those Turkic tribes kind of spread across that whole way, all the way really into today modern-day Turkey, which obviously we know even from reading the New Testament, that wasn't Turkish then. And um, and so these people settled in. Um, they different, they had different religions. Obviously, you know, early they were uh uh animistic and practiced tribal religions. Um they were Manichaean at one point, uh, which is kind of interesting. Um, they uh eventually got introduced to Nestorian Christianity, and those a thriving uh Eastern, when I say Nestorian, I'm not there's debate about how Nestorian they really were, but they were referred to as Nestorians. Um and uh so there was a thriving Christian community amongst the Uyghurs. And then uh, you know, in the middle, you know, during the rise of the Mongol Empire, you know, around 1400, um, Islam really began to take a hold in that in that region. And as one uh leader after another kind of converted to Islam and brought their people into Islam, and then of course you had you know some of the Mongol Empire and their influences with Islam, um, you really saw the whole region become become Muslim. And so up to that time, each oasis kind of had their own identity. So you know in Hotan uh they would be Buddhist, you know, but maybe in Kashgar they're already uh they're already Muslim. So you have some of these, you know, this this emerging kind of Turkic identity and then a Uyghur identity, and so and then a religious identity on top of those things. So the the we we became uh intimately acquainted with the Uyghur people, mostly through students. So the city where we were located had a large Muslim quarter, um, Hawaii, mostly Huei Muslims, which are Chinese speaking and mostly ethnically Chinese uh Muslims, but have been Muslims for um you know for centuries. And and so it made it easy for Uyghur students to come in. Well, in 2009, there was a very big uh uprising in the capital city of Xinjiang called Arumchi, and um that the there's obviously huge debate about what really happened. If you talk to the Chinese, they say you know, Uyghurs went crazy and started slaughtering us and we had to fight back. And the but from the Uyghur standpoint, which makes the most sense to me, and I'm uh you know, my bias is leaning that way, um, put that clearly on the table, um, was that there was uh there were some some Uyghurs that were treated unjustly in another part of China, and they were sentenced uh to death for a crime that they said they didn't commit. While the Uyghurs in Urunji started demonstrating peacefully, uh the police pushed them out, and as we're seeing in the States, you know, like that confrontation just blows up and it blew up there. And um and so the Uyghurs, you know, perpetuated violence toward Han shopkeepers, which they had been living very peacefully together. And then the next day the Han retributed, you know, had retribution toward them, and the police came out in force and they shut the whole thing down. So uh Xinjiang is roughly the size of Texas, it's a huge area. Half the size of internet.
SPEAKER_02I was I was looking at just right, yeah, just massive. That that's a great comparison. Just there is a massive place. Seven UKs could fit inside Xinjiang. Yeah. Huge. Yeah, no internet.
SPEAKER_01They shut the whole thing down. You couldn't make any international phone calls. Um, everything was became like super tight. So all these Uyghurs are businessmen, what are they gonna do? I mean, imagine you can't get on the internet. I mean, this is 2009, and so they began coming into inner China to do business, and we just began building relationships and and uh one thing led to another, and our our business that we had started was able to help a lot of uh a lot of them just do normal business transactions and marketing and things like that. So we really got to know uh the people well, and I um you know in here here in America, I you know, it's like you you you compare it to people groups we have here, like they're very it always reminded me of the Mexican people around us as far as just warm and very uh very hospitable culture. And uh, you know, they're they can be also be quick to get to get um emotional. Uh so they're very different than the Chinese culturally, which sometimes causes misunderstand huge misunderstandings. Um but as far as like a people who, when you become their friends, uh you're a friend for life and the type of hospitality. So and and generally a peaceful people group, you know. So it's not like what China has made out to be that here is this people group that's always uh causing terrorism. In fact, you know, that that isn't the case for for vast, vast majorities of people. Um they don't one, they don't have access to to weapons of any kind of sort, but also um, at least in my experience, um there they they were barely Muslim in many ways, culturally Muslim for sure, but didn't even really have access to, I mean, I I I knew way more about the Quran than almost every Uyghur I ever met. Um and so uh some of these pressures, I do think, you know, come from obviously a political, uh political situation because there was so much pressure being put on them. So then, you know, things that don't feel Chinese um start to get eradicated. So huge historical sections of of their historical city just being you know bulldozed over and and high-rise puts high-rise, you know, um apartment buildings put up. And you're like, you could say, well, that's just modernization, but there's there's so much land you can you could find a place to put a high-rise. It was really about control because you can't drive tanks into these maze-like streets. It was kind of like watching Indiana Jones, you know, movies, you know, it's like back in Morocco in these little tiny, uh, tiny alleyways, and it's what a lot of the traditional communities were like. And so these are being destroyed. Um, traditionally, Uyghurs had the option of learning Chinese uh basically as a foreign language or or being in a in a Uyghur taught school, and those options are being taken away from them, um, you know, wearing the traditional head covering, so the Uyghurs wear a hat called a dopa. Well, a lot of them didn't wear them anyway, but now they're forbidden from wearing them. And so really there seems to be an attempt to um not just um you know shut down any kind of terrorism, uh, but really eradicate a whole culture. And and that's what's you know, we're we're seeing more and more of those kind of things, you know, uh taking place. We can talk about that more.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I've got up uh on the screen a map of China. And yeah, I I had no idea before I looked this up just how huge Xinjiang is. Yeah, half the size of India. You could fit seven UKs into Xinjiang. Um I think you could fit six Xinjiangs into the US, but there we go. It's a sixth the size of the US, but it's half the size of India. It's it's absolutely huge. Sort of we're talking about a thousand miles, you know, from end to end.
SPEAKER_01And it's really valuable land. You know, it's mostly desert, surrounded by mountains and oases, but it but most of the rare earth minerals in the world are found there. I mean, things that we need for computers and for for um you know space exploration and oil, um, as well as you know, it's great, there's a lot of great farmland there too. Well, you know, China is a lot of mountains, very little, uh, very they they have a state, they have very little farmland, and and a lot of the land doesn't produce a lot of the other things that they're looking for. So it's a strategic place for China, and it's relatively unpopulated. I mean, there's um about 12 million Uyghurs. I I can't remember the exact population right now of Xinjiang, but let's say it it wouldn't be it would be around 20 million people, and uh and you know it's a large, large section. And so obviously um, you know, it's it's it's somewhat comparable to you know the the western states of America when you know they wanted to expand and all there's it's called the new frontier.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it's a frontier people group.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, isn't that what Xinjiang means? New frontier. Yeah, yeah. So yeah, so Xin means new, and Jiang means frontier, and and so the in Chinese thinking, it was always kind of the edge of China. It wasn't always controlled by China, um, but it was definitely the edge of their when they when they were in when they had a lot of power, when the when the empire was strong, they controlled it. They controlled the trade routes. Um they never really controlled the culture, and there never was a lot of Chinese people living there. Um, but it was definitely strategic because that was you know, like some of the main nexuses of the Silk Road and a lot of wealth, uh silk um production there, jade production comes from there, uh grapes and melons and you know other things are coming through there. Plus, all the trade that was coming from you know the Roman Empire and Europe and all throughout the Middle East was all coming through places like Kashgar and Hotan. Everything from India would come up through Hotan. So it was a very strategic place, and it's still a strategic place.
SPEAKER_02So it used to be uh around about like 90-95% Uyghur Muslims in the in the area, and and now it's more like sort of 50% Uyghur Muslims. What what what's happened? The the Han Chinese are moving in there in order to exploit the five the farmland and the and the mining and that sort of thing.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, well, you know, China is very overcrowded. And so, you know, they they don't celebrate, you know, with being the largest country in the world population-wise, isn't isn't a source of pride for China. And in some ways, it's a sort source of shame. You know, they wish they weren't. Um, because it's there's not a lot of re you know, they import you know millions of tons of grain a year uh to support their people. There's not enough farmland to feed their people. And most of the people are are on the eastern coast of China. And so, you know, giving China the benefit of the doubt, I mean, here is a you know, here's a massive place that is relatively unpopulated and it has a lot of opportunity, plus, there's a lot of resources there. So, in that sense, it makes sense. Um, on the other side, you know, there is this uh there's been this agreement that it was a semi-autonomous region that was controlled by the Uyghurs and the Kazakhs and the Tajiks down in the in the in Kyrgyz peoples, uh these Turkic peoples and Persian peoples that that have historically lived there. And um, and so, you know, what so so there's that that side of it. The other part of it is, you know, there's always been this push since Mao's time to create one China. And that that goes into even Chinese history and mythology, you know, the earliest empire, you know, the first emperor of the Qin dynasty um to unite China, you know, is kind of mythical, you know, like is it uh mythologized? So uh there's this desire to make China one. So instead of all these different disparate people groups and and languages, because you know Southern Chinese can't even communicate with northern Chinese through speech, they've got to write it down. So the characters are the same, but the speaking is very different. So to bring it to into one, how do you lead a country like that of a billion people? You got to make it unified. And so there's a huge effort to do that. Well, if you've got this people group on the far end of your country that don't speak the language, that have a different religion, that are are really leaning more toward the West, you know, they they identify with the with with you know Western Muslims, they appreciate Western things, they hate Chinese things. Um one way to bring them in and not have them break away or have constant unrest is to bring it to overwhelm them population-wise. And historically, China has always done that. They've been conquered many times, but their culture, their mass of people always seems to bring, you know, it is it's you know, it's like water on concrete. Eventually it wears it down. And I think bringing in, you know, millions of Chinese people certainly changes things. And I've I've seen this with my eyes. Um in one in one uh part of one oasis, it's called Turpon. It's beautiful, it's uh famous for their for their vineyards and grapes. And you could see places where the vineyards that were historically owned by the Uyghur people were being ripped out and replaced with farmland, and the the Uyghurs that lived on that land were displaced, and far Chinese farmers were put on there, and and and they don't really interact much. So um, you know, the Chinese have their own restaurants that you know that they have their own language, they have their own way of doing things, and they really don't interact much with the with the Uyghur people. So um I think that a huge motivation for bringing in so many people is one, there's there's land there, it needs to be farmed, but also it overwhelms a culture that is seemed to be undesirable to the government's uh ideals.
SPEAKER_03Tell us a bit about um well, it'd be good to hear a bit about the church in China generally, but maybe before that just to think a bit more specifically about what's the church like in Xinjiang.
SPEAKER_01There are Uyghur believers. Um and it it sometimes it gets down to how you there's different competing schools of thought about even like what what should you know how how how how should Christianity look in a Muslim context. So you talk to one person who anyone who has any kind of affinity towards Jesus, even if they still go to the mosque and and proclaim themselves to be Muslim, well, we count them as Christians because they like Jesus too. And then there's what I would say is you know a little the more orthodox side of it, the even evangelical expression where someone you know leaves their past and follows Christ. And so that there are a handful of believers like that, hundreds of believers like that. But you're talking about a people group of 12 million. That's a very small group. And and it's so it's and it's very hard for them to gather. So there are some weaker congregations, but they're spread out. They're they're they struggle because they don't have access to a lot of resources in their language, they don't have access to training uh readily. Um, they tend to get pushed from both sides. So, you know, obviously the Chinese government isn't favorable toward any kind of religion, especially anything that isn't fit within their you know, predetermined molds. But then you also get this cultural pressure um from family and friends of, you know, what have you done? And I and I've heard stories of you know, a number of believers of people coming to Christ in in a certain city, and um and they're you know, the the people, you know, the village gets really worked up because what's happening here? These people are not just leaving Islam, it feels like they're leaving their Uyghur culture when they follow Christ. And the government comes in and deals with it because they don't want the uprising. So, you know, the government sometimes cares about religion. Often they just care about stability. The the people themselves care about the culture and perpetuating. And I've I've talked to Uyghurs that say, hey, I I believe what you're saying about Christ, but um I don't want to abandon my Uyghurness as if you you have to choose. You can't be in their mind, you can't be a Uyghur and be a Christian, which hasn't historically been the case, but uh it does working with Uyghurs, sharing the gospel with Uyghurs, you know, it's a very hard thing for them to follow Christ, and it takes many, many years. And so um most of the Uyghur believers don't live in in that region at all anymore. Um and they don't have huge Uyghur churches and and only a handful of Uyghur churches that I've heard of, I've never even seen. Um and uh yeah, I would say heavy persecution. There's heavy persecution just because of who they are as a people group, but then you add in the religious dynamics and it's uh it's it's brutal.
SPEAKER_02Tell us about, you know, we're we're hearing about these re-education camps as the Chinese Communist Party want to call them, um, concentration camps as other people are calling them. What are you hearing about um about these camps?
SPEAKER_01Um everything I'm hearing is is on the worst end of what we're seeing in the news. Um even here in in Northern California, there are you know thousand or two thousand Uyghur people that live here. Of course, if I find hear about them, I try to find them, and and we have, you know, just knowing that I've been there and I know their home, and um, even though I don't speak Uyghur, unfortunately, I I speak some bad Mandarin. But um uh but we we have some things in common, and I've not yet met someone that doesn't have family or friends um in in camps, and there's a huge fear um of even reaching out to them, and so uh, you know, students will come over here for education or they'll go to Australia or England or Germany, Turkey, and um this thing happened, and now that you know it's been three or four years and they have no idea what's going on with their mom or what's going on with their dad, and they're afraid to reach out and try to contact them because even a phone call from the West could be enough to send them to a camp. Um, we're you know, we're hearing stories of of them being, you know, if you understand the Uyghurs too, you realize so much of what the child of what China's saying is just absolute rubbish. Uh it it I I've seen it um where where I'll be you know, Uyghur guys and and um and young women, they'll be talking about what their life is like and their experience and when we were you know in in in Xinjiang. And and then as soon as a Han Chinese person would come up, they'd change their whole demeanor instead of like talking like this this is the problem, this is what we need to do, this is like this is our burden here. All suddenly it's like, and we love you know Big Brother. They would say it just like that, like we're super sarcastic, which most Chinese people aren't sarcastic. Uyghurs are very sarcastic in their sense of humor, and they'd be like, Oh, we love Big Brother, we're so grateful, you know, for China's you know, re-educ, you know, educating us and giving us all these, you know, we were a primitive people and now we're you know an advanced people, you know, and kind of like talking like this. And so so when you see the news of like all these Uyghurs lining up and you know chanting the praises, you know, of China, you know uh this isn't true. And uh and being forced to leave their homeland, which they they love their home, and uh they're they're they're very uh passionate about their oasis. And if you ever talk to one, you know, like there'll be fights about is Kashgar better than Ely and like those guys are this way, and they they're very passionate about their home, and it's a very beautiful place. Um, and so you're seeing these things and you realize, okay, this is this is terrible. And um, and you know, even before the internment camps, you know, you would hear stories of of from even my friends of being tortured and and huge, you know, they'd go on the they'd get something sent to them on the internet, a video of something that happened, and within minutes the police are at their door. I've experienced that just staying in a home and we thought we were doing everything right in the middle of the night, the police come in and they interview you. What are you doing here? You know, like I'm spending the night at my friend's house. You know, it's it's something that those of us in the West really can't fathom. Because if I came and visited you, I would not expect at midnight the police to barge in. But it's kind of expected that there's going to be police intrusion, even if you're in, you know, the middle of nowhere. So, you know, over a million Uyghurs are in internment camps right now. Um, and the the the attempt is to eradicate a whole people group. And I I really believe that that is what they're trying to do. They're trying to eradicate a language uh so that they're not unique in that way, um, eradicate their identity as a people group. I think religion actually is kind of like a a tertiary concern, um as uh they do allow religion as long as it goes along with the party line. So there's official mosques, official churches, official synagogues, but they're gonna be very sinusized, you know, cleaned up and made to look like what uh the government, the central government uh wants it to look like.
SPEAKER_02Some people are calling this go on, go on, Paul.
SPEAKER_03Well, I was just gonna say I'd be really interested to know what the how how it how is it being reported where you are? Because the thing that I found interesting, I think we talked about it last week, was that for us we heard about this story sometime in the middle of last year, or maybe maybe the late later in the year, but um but it didn't really seem to get picked up. A few news places have picked it up. Well, as I've looked around, most of the articles I find about this are from last year, and it seems that a lot of news outlets have picked it up. Um but the thing that I found interesting was that nobody seemed to be talking about it. Um it it didn't really seem no nobody kind of grabbed it and went, Oh my goodness, this is this is awful. And I'm just wondering what side you're seeing of it over in the States and if you've got any thoughts on perhaps why that's the case and maybe why it's resurfaced a bit now as well.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, in some ways I'm the wrong person to ask because I'm searching it out and um and I care a lot about it. And and so uh the New York Times and The Economist are the two news organizations that I feel like have always been on top of this. And uh and then lately we were seeing you know more news outlets picking it up. Vice uh just did a a series where people went went undercover and really, I mean, it's heartbreaking videos. It's heartbreaking for anyone to watch. It's really heartbreaking for me to watch because I'm like, I know those streets, I know those those places. They don't look anything like what they look like even just a few years ago. And um, and so it's starting to get get some traction. There's a lot of anti-China sentiment in America right now. Um, I mean, certainly Donald Trump, you know, has been banging that drum. I mean, that he's their uh he's the he's the the favorite target, you know, they're his favorite target. But but um I I think there's a few a couple factors that work against the Uyghur people. Um you know, they don't have a warm and cuddly spokesperson, you know, like uh like the Dalai Lama for Tibet, for instance. You know, who who is that person that's speaking out for them that that that people can identify with and go, okay, that's a that's someone that I I can identify with. That that's horrible. The other part of it is that um I think there's an anti-Muslim bias. So, I mean, certainly I'm a Christian, I don't agree with Islam and I want Muslims to know Jesus, but um there is this bias that every Muslim is a terrorist, which is just you know blatantly untrue. And um, those who live in multicultural areas, you know, I mean, most of the UK is very multicultural. You know this, living out in the Bay Area, you know, we have Muslims in our home very frequently, and it's not any kind of special thing. They're just hanging out with my kids because they're friends at school, you know. And um, so you understand that. So, you know, when China says, well, they're they're terrorists, it's just assumed after 9-11 that they probably are. Well, um, China's got ulterior motives, and only recently are people calling them out on it. And so there has been some movement. In fact, a lot of the Uyghurs, you know, here in the States have that I've even in China that I met really liked you know America because they felt like America is a country that kind of you know at least says something about their rights. I don't, I I kind of worry that a lot of times it's just talk because the only way to make China move on anything is financially. So if you stop buying their products, if you stop buying Uyghur-made products, if you stop, you know, buying cars that are made with labor that is probably you know Uyghur slave labor that would impact China's bottom line. And and you know, even culturally, um, you know, Americans, Australians are definitely this way, you know, are very upfront and kind of in your face and direct. And uh and Chinese are don't that's that's shameful and and and they they're not gonna respond well to bullying, um, but they will respond to to the bottom line. And and so, you know, I I would love to see you know something being done that would put a lot of pressure on China, but at this point it's out of the bag, and I have a hard time seeing them walking this back. Um I really don't see a good ending. I don't I don't know what I can't envision what a good end could look like here uh unless there's a major uh shift in the political landscape. And that could happen because the previous um uh chairman uh was a lot more open than the current chairman of China. So that could happen. Um but um yeah, in America, I I think there's some interest, but attention spans are short. Right now, everyone's thinking about COVID, then they're thinking about the riots um and um and the you know the racial uh race racist race issues here in America, and then they're gonna be thinking about the election and the amount of attention that they can give toward any kind of uh Uyghur concern is small, unfortunately. And it's heartbreaking for someone that loves that people and wants to see this gain major traction, but I think it is what it is. Can you give us a sense like in the UK? I would love to hear that if you want to share that.
SPEAKER_02Because there's a lot of Uyghurs in Australia. Right, right. Well, uh I mean, as as you talk about Australians being a bit more in your face, and I I think Australian politicians have been a bit more um in China's face. And I think, yeah, that that hasn't always um uh led to um the warmest diplomacy, but you know, maybe maybe talking tough you know needs to happen. I don't I don't know. But I think here in the UK, um there's just been a petition signed by uh 100,000 people, which is the threshold at which Parliament has to debate a certain topic. And the and the topic of the petition was that we should um uh have sanctions against China um because of its treatment of of Uyghur Muslims. And I I I think it's pretty much a copycat of the bill that Marco Rubio, is that right, that he um he sponsored that bill um in Congress. So um so again, like like you say, trying to trying to hit China where it hurts in the bottom line. But I'd be I'd be fascinated to know about um yeah, boycotting certain products. I don't I don't know which products I would boycott. Are there are there websites we can go to? What what what can we do? This this would be really good to figure out, Scott. What can we actually do?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, as far as as far as boycotting, I mean I want to be very careful with that. I mean, one, I don't even know if it's effective or not. And uh and two, there's so much bad information that you know I I want to be careful. So I I'm not gonna say I think you could probably go online and and research that and I'll I'll continue to do that. I think certainly the government can can know. I mean, can can we can we can pressure our government officials to take this seriously and to understand that it's seriously. Um and as well as I think just even on social media helping to raise those voices and helping people to see because when you to you know you I've been to the Holocaust Museum, both in DC but also in in Israel, and you realize like how complicit the Western countries were, you know, like we just didn't care, you know, and and you we have something very similar to this. And I don't know if there's mass exterminations taking place, but but you know, it's uh it's something horrendous in our lifetime that's taking place, and and we can push our our leaders to to think about this. And you know, in America, we can write our congresspeople, and I'm sure you can you can you know email or write your MPs and and and pressure them about this issue that they know that and and and I I think Uyghur Muslims are watching and they're seeing who's standing up for them. I've seen multiple posts of like, where are the Muslims? Why, you know, China's giving these Muslim nations massive amounts of money. Pretty much anyone that that the UK and Australia and America uh boycott or put sanctions on, China's right there to pick up the slack and and make good, make cook, make friends with. Well, um, you know, putting pressure on on these on these places to to not to do that. But anyway, Muslims are seeing that the Muslim nations in general aren't speaking up about this and aren't standing up for them. Well, that kind of goes against the whole you know projected ethos of Islam, that there's this giant um and we're all part of this great family and we take care of each other. And and they do see and they do notice that the the people who are caring about them and fighting for them tend to be Christians. And uh, and um I I think they notice that. So I mean making things aware on social media, uh pushing that, um, you know, seeking out uh Uyghur restaurants, which they're there, they're not usually well known, and then asking questions, you know, and and and understanding they're gonna be cautious, and a lot of times Chinese they'll have Chinese uh patrons there and they're not gonna talk about these issues in front of Chinese patrons for fear of retribution back home. But but you know, you can if you tell them, hey, I was reading about um you know, about and you have to be careful, most the and you have to make a decision if you want to use this language or not. Most of the Uyghurs of living abroad refer to Xinjiang, not as Xinjiang, because that's a Chinese idea and Chinese thought, but they call it East Turkestan. And so um that's kind of their they they want that to be their own nation. And so there's you see like the blue flag with you know, kind of the crescent and the star, the light blue flag, um, and talk about East Turkestan. And if you drop that term and say, you know, I I've been reading a lot about East Turkestan and about the different cities, you know, Hotan and Kashgar. Where's your where are your family from? You know, and and and you know, if you do a little bit of reading and know about a few of the things that are there and a little bit of the history, immediately you'll find a warm reception. And, you know, it's it's like if you're from a small town and someone from England, you know, I'm from a small town in Wisconsin and someone from England's been there. I'm just shocked, you know, like let's talk. We have something in common. And um, and and and kind of just begin to show show care for them, leave larger tips than well. I don't know if you tip in England or not, but you know, in America, my my tips are ridiculous because you know, like I want them to know that I I feel for their situation and uh and I care about them as people and and you know just start to build those kind of relationships and letting them know that um they're not invisible, they're being seen. Um I will tell them I'm praying for them, you know, and tell them I can I pray for your family. I you know, and they they they do respect faith and um they do have an appreciation for that. And and um I think those are the kinds of things that over time build relationships. For for Christians, we have to understand that, you know, I mean, they're not gonna they're not gonna change overnight in their understanding of Christianity. It's gonna take many, many years of of hearing the truth of the gospel and watching it being lived out. And um, you know, I've I've had Muslim friends say, I've never had a friend treat me like you treat me. And I'm like, oh, I'm sure you do the same thing for me. And then he looked at me in the eyes and goes, No, I wouldn't. And uh he didn't, he's not a believer, he didn't become a believer, but but I feel like sometimes our testimony and the way we love and care for them is showing them that Christ is real in our lives. So um that'd be my encouragement um to seek them out and then to support them where they're at, find out their needs, find out the names, you know, ask them if you can pray for their family. You're not gonna recognize the names, they're hard to pronounce. And so you ask them to write it down, you know, um, those kind of things, learn a couple Uyghur words. Uh most places that could be kind of seen as strange, but especially a people group that feels like they're on the verge of eradication. Um, those things, those gestures mean a lot.
SPEAKER_02Scott, just as we as we finish, can you just raise our gaze a little bit to um what do you think God might be up to in China? Um, you know, we we we hear all sorts of reports, and I I don't know what kind of numbers to trust in terms of you know what the underground church is like. Um, but you know, what what do you feel God might be doing in China? And who knows, maybe the 21st century will belong to China. Maybe this, maybe this really is a you know a time in which uh China will be a giant on the world stage. Is is there a sort of a secret giant in in the midst of China itself? What's what's going on spiritually, do you think, in the country as a whole?
SPEAKER_01Uh I I had a good friend, an old China hand, as they say, that that said, everything you hear about China is true somewhere in China. Um and uh and I found that to be true in my own experience. Um, you know, by some estimates, there's 97 million Chinese Christians. Uh it's a small percentage of the Chinese population, but you know, that's uh that's a large number, right? And um, it's getting pretty close to the number of of evangelical believers in America. And um I I would say though that you you know the the Chinese church is sometimes a mile uh wide and an inch deep. Um and uh but there are some strong churches and strong believers. There is a mission impulse uh to to reach those people uh with the gospel. And and I and I I I do wonder sometimes if this current unrest, um, there is a lot of pressure on Chinese churches as well that's increased um since since 2011, um, it's gotten a lot more intense, especially in interior China. So you'll have a little bit more freedom and opening in like Shanghai or Beijing, but you'll have a lot more uh harsh measures in Xi'an or uh Chengdu or some of these inner cities. And I wonder if some of the some of the pressure will will bring um because Chinese Christians struggle just like you know American or English Christians or Australian Christians do, I'm sure, with with racism and ethnocentricism and um and and and I think some of these issues may cause them to become aware uh of some of the needs around them. Um most of the Chinese believers I know were very afraid of Uyghur people, and they read you know, they read the state media and and believe in all of it. And the only Uyghurs they ever saw were the beggars and the thiefs on the corner and And so, you know, being able to maybe see them from a different light could be really uh good uh you know a helpful thing. And I think we've seen in China in the past that uh what I'm hoping will happen with the Uyghurs and that that God will take this horrific circumstance and turn it to good by realizing um there is no hope in Islam. And uh and but also also that that having a lot of their um foundations being ripped up will cause them to to think about God in ways they haven't, like kind of like what COVID's doing. I feel like COVID's causing people to think about eternity. Every time they see another death total, they're like, I might die. And when when things are made uncomfortable, you start thinking about eternal things. And so I'm just praying that that's what God will do here, and that even with the spreading of Uyghur people and the spreading of Chinese people around the world, that that there'll be a turning uh to Christ. But um but I don't know. I hope so.
SPEAKER_00Right, right.
SPEAKER_03I guess those are kind of good things for us to be praying for uh then off the back of that, you know, that actually God is moving. I think it's easy it's easy for us to to look at these things, isn't it? And to and to just despair a bit. But I think you know, as you read through as we read through the Bible, we see time and time again there have been situations where things have looked hopeless. Uh but God has been at work in things in ways at the time people couldn't possibly have really known or been aware of. Um and you know, I'm sure God works in that way now. Um, so you know, like you say, with you we've been talking about COVID here as as a church, you know, and saying, of course, you know, maybe this is a time where people, like you say, do start to realise their mortality and go, well, what's life about? You know, everything's been stripped away that I would normally do in my life. And um, it does open those questions, and maybe in the same way as people begin to see these things going on in China, that may cause questions, but also we pray that um it will be an opportunity for you know, like the the Ouija community as well, like you say, to find Christ and for the church in China to be a witness in in some way, um, whatever that might look like. And yeah, I mean, who knows? I mean, I re I was reading a book the other day that said uh I I I don't know exactly what the c where the f this the figures came from, but if if the church in China continued to grow in the way it is, by 2050 it would be a majority Christian uh country. Um obviously we don't know what what's gonna happen between now and then, but um it strikes me that that would be a huge turnaround for a nation like China, given what it looks like at the moment. And uh yeah.
SPEAKER_01And I would you know challenge those who are thinking about missions and maybe they're listening to this and like I have a burden for the Uyghurs, I want to reach them with the gospel, and and it seems hopeless. And recognizing like uh uh it takes years and and and years of preparation because Mandarin is the language of commerce, but Uyghur is their heart language, and neither of those languages are an easy language for an English-speaking, native English-speaking person to learn. Um, and it may mean that you know, instead of going to Xinjiang, uh, we go to places like Turkey, you know, or we go to places like Australia, you know, um, and or Germany, which are three places where I always am hearing Uyghurs trying to go to. Um, they'd love to come to America too and England too, but like those are you know, Australia is closer, and for a while they were giving a lot of educational visas. Um, Turkey, of course, is a very similar language, and it's obviously a much more modern country than some of the other Turkic countries. And and going there and and you know, preparing by learning the language there and building relationships in those in those places with diaspora peoples. Um and uh, you know, sometimes when people's lives are uprooted, they're eager and willing to hear and think about things that they wouldn't hear think about if they're surrounded by you know their tradition and their peers. And so now is not the time, I think, for for Christians to hold back because there's it's an uncertain time. I think we we need to really need to lean in to this moment and see what God's gonna do because we don't know in China when things open and when they close. Right now it's like a pretty closed window for for that, but it will open again. Um, and and we we we should be preparing for those at that time. And and and it's not gonna be like, oh, it's open, and now you know it's gonna be immediate fruit. If we wait, it's it's about seven years of language prep and cultural prep. And there's just so many things that even in my short time I did wrong, just because I didn't understand the culture and and didn't understand, you know, the way Eastern cultures think and work and process things, and I caused needless offense um because I didn't know what I was doing and talking about, where um we can start working on those things even now and preparing ourselves now.
SPEAKER_02And a great way that people can uh prepare themselves. Why don't you subscribe to the Missions Podcast, uh, which Scott is a co-host of, and uh uh those guys are always talking about these uh kinds of issues, and um perhaps it will uh stir up many to uh either consider going themselves or um supporting the work of missions in whatever way um is possible. So I highly recommend the Missions Podcast. Get that from your local podcatcher. Uh but Scott Dunford, thank you so much uh for spending uh some time with us. It's been um really eye-opening, and I I pray that it stirs us all towards further prayer and uh towards considering how God might be using us in reaching the nations. Thanks so much. Thank you for the opportunity. It was a joy talking to you guys.
SPEAKER_03It's been great.