Hello, my name is Glenn Scrivener. Welcome everybody. I'm here in our studios in Eastbourne, and joining me in Crowborough is the very wonderful Paul Feasy. Say hello to the people.
SPEAKER_06Hello, everybody. How are you all doing? Don't want to say that. They're not gonna respond, are they? Like I hope. Well they might. Why don't we? But now we're live. It's so long since we've been live. People can actually respond, and I forget that. That means we have to be more careful what we say now.
SPEAKER_05Yes, no, there's no there's no editing after the fact.
SPEAKER_06No at all.
SPEAKER_05It's uh yeah, so please, please no swearing, Paul.
SPEAKER_04This time I'll try and leave limit it a little bit, you know.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, keep it as safe for work, why don't you? Uh today we're gonna talk about um what everyone in church is talking about, and that is how weird it is to meet, what we're able to do, what we're not able to do, some of the strengths of meeting together, some of the frustrations of meeting together. Um, and I guess my my first question for you, Paul, is uh have you met together physically? And if so, what was it like?
SPEAKER_06Yeah, um I I've been three times actually yesterday. We're only supposed to go once, but I was preaching in the morning and in the evening, the first service of the day and the last service. And then I also went with my family uh at 11 o'clock. So yeah, I've I've been um yeah, and it is a it's a different experience, that's for sure. Um, so uh each service I went to just felt quite different in terms of how I came away from it. So um in the first one, um I mean I went in, I had my mask on. Um, I was having some issues with steaming up in my glasses, and I was just thinking, like, oh man, like this is not good, and it didn't feel great. And also there weren't a huge amount of people there, so it it felt a little bit I'd assumed that everybody would just book their places and want to be there. Um so there was a sense in which I was a little bit kind of underwhelmed by the whole thing, and you know, we had to sing, we we weren't allowed to sing songs, but we hummed. Did you did you hum? Yes. Yeah, we did humming at that one. Um now when we went to the the next service, which was the family service. Um uh we again we we were we could hum, but actually we were doing Macathon signing for the songs, which was which was actually good. We do a lot of Macaton stuff anyway, um, for particular songs. For those who don't know what Macaton is, can you explain? It's kind of it's it's a form of sign language. I think it's kind of uh uh used generally with uh kind of young years. So if you've ever if you've got kids and you've ever seen Mr. Tumble, like it's it's that, I think.
SPEAKER_05Yep.
SPEAKER_06Um he uses it. Um so we were using that, and actually, like I would say that when you're trying to sing a song and do that, I always found that quite difficult. But when you're actually not having to sing and you can just focus on the signing, actually it was quite a useful thing, and actually a lot of people kind of quite got into it. Um so I mean we had that service, and but interestingly, I mean the thing the thing I was really looking forward to was seeing people and talking to people afterwards. Now, obviously, you're not allowed to congregate in the building and you've got to get out. Um, but I kind of assumed that we'd all just spill out onto the kind of green which is outside our church and people would mill around and chat. But interestingly, everybody just went straight home. Um, I don't know whether it was because people just were um weren't sure really what they were allowed to do and kind of felt like, oh, we've just got to go and that's the rules. Um, but myself and Becca, we kind of got home and we felt a bit, we were quite disappointed by that, to be honest. We felt like we'd had better fellowship with people over Zoom after YouTube videos than we had in the service, which was felt like a shame. But then I went in the evening where I was preaching again, and actually that was a bit more chilled because we had a bit more time. Wasn't kind of you weren't on a rotor to get through and get another service in afterwards. Um and actually, you know, that that I mean it's it's a different kind of crowd anyway. Um, but actually, people did stay around or on outside afterwards when people were going back to their cars, kind of in the car park and on the pavement. People were just stopping and chatting. And I had a good chat with some people for you know, kind of 20, 30 minutes, actually, and that was really nice. Um, so uh yeah, I mean it was a it was a bit of a mixed bag in terms of experience. Um, but I wonder whether some of that is just first week back, people weren't quite sure what we can do, you know, what can't we do. Um, positive, you know.
SPEAKER_05Yeah. Oh, it's great. It's great to great to meet with God's people, isn't it? And uh it is it is odd that you can hum, but you can you can like you know, in an Anglican setting, there was liturgy and there was, you know, this is the word of the Lord, thanks be to God, and we were saying the grace to one another, but we couldn't sing. We could hum, but we couldn't sing.
SPEAKER_06I guess the theory behind it is that when you sing, there's this kind of greater expulsion of air going on. But I mean, I think whoever made that rule has never heard Anglicans sing. No, so it was different in a charismatic church, probably. They're much more enthusiastic.
SPEAKER_05Are there ways of singing where you inhale?
SPEAKER_03Like try it. Great!
SPEAKER_05I mean, that that could be really fortifying of the saints, don't you think? Wouldn't it wouldn't? Wow.
SPEAKER_06Why not? I mean, it's it's safe. Yeah, this is a headphone warning for people. Um this is a good example of something that would have got left on the cutting room floor in the edit.
SPEAKER_05I have wondered. I have wondered, isn't isn't the time ripe for an app where you okay, you put your phone inside your mask and you just sing quite quietly, but it actually broadcasts, you know, and maybe if you fit fit it with autotune as well.
SPEAKER_06If you build it, Glenn, if you build it, I think so. People will download it.
SPEAKER_05I'm always looking for an angle, you know, a little slide hustle. But yeah, we I mean we've we've had uh a couple of evening services. We haven't yet braved all age services with kids um yet and and that sort of thing. But um, yeah, I mean it's it's odd. You you know, you're indoors for a certain length of time. I think 45 minutes is the recommendation or whatever. And so, you know, when when we leave, it's kind of like it's kind of like school assembly. You're kind of no talking, and out you go. And we sort of we sort of spilled out into the car park. And it's interesting because I I thought, hey, isn't this great? What a witness it is to, you know, for the town to look on and see. Yeah, it's church is together and they're congregating and they're they're back in business. But then, of course, other people saying, you know, understandably, well, it depends what kind of witness it is. You know, if we're all properly socially distanced, it's a good witness. If it's not, then it's not a good witness. And there's just so many extra things we're having to consider right now.
SPEAKER_06Just a quick note before you carry on. You might want to just back off your mic gain very slightly. You're a little hot, but um not hugely, but just occasionally you're getting into the realms of distortion. Um yeah, I mean, we our services, because we had this 8.30, and then there was a 10 and then an 1115, I think it was, they were very much builders, you know, you're gonna have um, well, the 10 and the 1115 were gonna be half an hour. So that was all it was. Um, because they were gonna get people in, you know, get them out, clean, start again, that kind of thing. Um, actually, I don't know, we found with the kids because that they are gonna start kids work again in September, I think, um, in some form. I'm not sure exactly how it's gonna how it's gonna look. Um, but the kids were fine for half an hour, you know. We took like uh actually the services are built as all age, so they they are kind of they were doing some songs and bits and bobs that involve the kids. But you know, the kids had you know had their colouring pads or whatever with them as well. Um and you know, I know a few people have said, Oh, we're a bit worried about bringing the kids because of, you know, what they sit through it. Um, you know, at least for us, it was a short amount of time, so I don't think it's a huge issue. But we've also got a four-month-old, and we kind of turned up beforehand and said, What do we do if um if she starts crying? Like, where can we go? Because we know we can't go in this space or that place anymore. And they basically just said, which starts, well, it's just the way it is, isn't it? Just let her cry. People have to deal with it. Like it's church. They were like, so they said there's no crash running, so people will just have to deal with it, and that's the way it is. I was like, okay, yeah, that seems fair. You'd be you'd be finding the the mute button.
SPEAKER_04Oh, yeah, button.
SPEAKER_05But where's where's the mute button on my four-month old? Yeah. What we really need is a snooze button on on children. I think that that would be that would be nice. Yeah, kids are great, but I think with with the 2.0 update, if we could just find a snooze button, please. Absolutely. And what do we make of because I mean there's there's courage needed and there's wisdom needed, it seems to me, at these times. Because every I mean, every congregation is is you know, has within it people who on the one hand, you know, tune into unheard and lockdown TV and are sort of locked down skeptics. And everyone in, you know, and there's also people in the congregations who have literally hermetically sealed their houses and and haven't left since March. Yeah. Um yeah, how do we how do we get that balance right between having the courage to, you know, I'm always struck by, you know, in in Proverbs, you know, it's the sluggard who says, There's a lion in the streets. Um, and and there can be a sense psychologically of the more you retreat from fearful things, the more fearful you become. Fearful you become. Yeah. And it becomes this vicious cycle. And you know, and you've got the Israelites saying in Numbers, you know, there are giants in the land. We can't we can't go across because there are giants in the land or there's a lion in the streets. So there is that that issue. Sometimes there can be a lack of courage, but also there can be a lack of wisdom. Sure. Um, if you blunder into things. So in Proverbs, you've also got this sense of you know, a fool, um, you know, a fool does not heed wisdom, but you know, keeps on going um and is destroyed, whereas, you know, um a wise person takes advice. So, yeah, how do we how do we navigate between courage and wisdom?
SPEAKER_06Yeah. I mean, I think it it's tricky, isn't it? I mean, like I say, my assumption was probably because I assume in my own head that I am uh I'm fairly representative of people.
SPEAKER_04Because of course we all do. You're the golden mean. Absolutely.
SPEAKER_05Everyone else is a deviation from you.
SPEAKER_06Average Joe. Um I kind of, like I said, I kind of assumed everybody would be chomping at the bit to get back. And that's why I was quite surprised to look around, particularly at that first service. I I suppose it's a two predominantly elderly, more older congregations that in the morning at that time. So maybe that might have influenced it a bit. Um I but like I said, I assume people were chomping at the bit to get back. I was a bit surprised that it wasn't absolutely kind of packed.
SPEAKER_05It's very interesting to me, different different experiences of risk and different different attitudes to risk. There are there are some people who are very happy with um yeah, risky behavior, and there are some people who are incredibly risk-averse. And and how do we navigate those those two things? Um so you know, the th the thing I sometimes think about is the you know, the older brother, younger brother kind of mentalities. Because the interesting thing in Luke 15 is that in Luke 15, um both kinds of mentality are wrong. You know, the the the father's kind of humanity is the right kind of humanity, and the the older brother and and younger brother are these natural temperaments that we all have. So there are some people who are very, very happily, they will walk into the they will waltz into the far country no matter what happens. And there are some people who are just happy, you know, confining themselves to the to the field, and both of them are kind of are kind of wrong. Um, but there's there's another kind of conceptuality that people have been considering, and and I think a lot of people have been talking in terms of stronger brother, weaker brother stuff. Have you have you have you come across that kind of um conceptualizing of of of of these different attitudes to risk? We seem to be having some technical difficulties. How's it how's it coming across, Jerome? As was the stuff that I've just been saying coming across? Yeah. Okay, okay. So the pro the problem is all at Paul Feasy's end.
SPEAKER_06As um problems with my end.
SPEAKER_05What are you saying? The problem is with Paul Feasy. Constantly. Constantly. I apologize. Um, so did you hear the stuff I was saying about, you know, sometimes people talk about Romans 14 and there's stronger brothers and weaker.
unknownWe can't.
SPEAKER_04Well, I know the general gist of what you're talking about. Yeah, yeah. Same old, same old.
SPEAKER_06So did you make the joke about the unshine coast yet?
SPEAKER_04If you've done that bit, like Eastborn, it's got what is it, but yeah, all the shop windows are bifocal. Boom, boom.
SPEAKER_05Anyway, Paul, as I was saying, um some people have been talking about you know these different attitudes to risk in terms of there are stronger brothers and weaker brothers, and in in therefore some who uh uh very emboldened to um to do stuff no matter what the regulations say, and some people who um might might be a bit more scrupulous. Um how do how do we think about that as as a way of understanding these different attitudes to risk with COVID-19?
SPEAKER_06Um yeah, I mean I don't know. I mean, I I think on the surface it maybe it seems maybe it seems like it ties up in some sense, but then I I wonder if you if you push a little bit deeper. I mean, I think you have to delve a bit more into exactly what what it was that the weaker brother is concerned about. Um and I think the context is more is it more to do with the law, the issues of things like that. Yes. Um mosaic law. Yeah, the mosaic law rather than yeah. So um I'm not sure. I mean, I as a as a uh perhaps as a general idea behind it that, you know, of course we should be mindful of others, you know. Right. Whether whether that passage itself is speaking particularly to the situation, I don't know. Um Right, right.
SPEAKER_05It it seems like in Romans 14 and 15, you've got these very specific issues of you know, some people consider every day alike and some people uh observing special days, some people are vegetarian and some people eat all kinds of meat. Um uh what's the other issue? Um anyway, you know, the these these issues of really do we do we keep kosher, basically? Do we do we maintain these boundary markers of old Israel, even as we've you know come into the the community of the church? And the stronger brother is the one who, yeah, they'll eat anything and there's no special days, you know, and they'll drink wine. That's the other, that's the other, you know, stronger brother thing. Um whereas the weaker brother is like, oh, not so sure. And so in one in one sense, it's pointing to some kind of temperamental attitude to risk, but also the yeah, the kind of laws, as you say, the kind of laws that are um being either obeyed or not, you know, um in Romans 14, it's about Moses' laws um as opposed to the laws of the land. Um and while the laws of Moses um have been put to death and raised up again in Christ, um in the New Testament, the laws of the land we're still under, you know, and actually Romans 13 might be a more appropriate place to go because there are laws of the land and and they are to be obeyed. Um, but then there are other issues where um the there are recommendations um that that come from on high, and then what is our attitude to to the law at that stage? And then we've got the instance of um John MacArthur um over in California. Um I guess he's had two Sundays back uh meeting at Grace Community Church. And um uh it it was it was interesting. I don't I don't know when you first saw like a photograph of Grace Community Church meeting, uh, whenever it was, about nine days ago. Um but I remember someone tweeted out just this, you know, this photograph of a thousand people inside the auditorium when uh the California state government governor had said that you know you cannot have indoor meetings of that size, um, and because of social distancing. And everyone needs, and if you're in indoors, uh you need to wear masks and all that sort of thing. Um, but John MacArthur uh wrote uh an article saying we obey Christ, not Caesar, and uh and then met. Uh and I don't know what your reaction to the photo was, Paul, but when when I saw it, like the first thing I thought was, whoa. Um in kind of almost in the same way that like when I'm watching TV at the moment and I see like people on screen are not socially distanced, I'm like, whoa. They're like they're totally breaking the rules, and it felt like freedom. But then instantly I just thought, oh, I really hope there's not a spike in numbers um, you know, around around their church, because you know, the the odds of an asymptomatic carrier of COVID-19 being in their midst is is fairly high when you're when you're dealing with a thousand plus people. Yep. Um yeah, I don't know how you you reacted to to Grace Community Church.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, I mean, I think my mine was more on the side of just like, oh no, like what why, you know, why are you doing this? Um just that it it seemed to it didn't seem very wise to me to be acting that way. And you know, the the in terms of I I don't feel it's a great witness personally that it it looks like uh a group of Christians saying, yeah, we don't really care about the impact this might have on other people. We just want to do what we want to do, stuff you will gonna get it, we're gonna do it. Um and I mean whether or not that is the attitude behind it, um, that is definitely I think how it'll come across. And let's be honest, the evangelical church in the States doesn't have a lot of goodwill uh to use up with the public anyway. So, you know, doesn't seem like a great move.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, yeah. And that was the point that was made by Jonathan Lehman of Nine Marks, um, across in Washington, DC. Um, he said, Yeah, we're gonna we're gonna need some some capital, some social capital um for the fights that are ahead of us, perhaps around LGBT issues and and that sort of thing. Which I thought, I don't know. I like I I don't think I don't think the reason to do or not to do things is is political like that or tactical, strategic like that. I think if John MacArthur is indeed right, that Caesar has no jurisdiction on within the church, if he is indeed correct about that, then you've got to you've got to obey God and not man. Um and that was the sort of the that was the scriptural justification that he used, um, citing Acts 5, verse 29, um, you know, judge for yourselves where whether we should obey God or uh or you in this matter, said Peter and John in front of the Sanhedrin. Um I think I think if it is true that Caesar has absolutely no jurisdiction in the church, um, then um then I I guess that's that's true, and the law, the law can't tell us what to do in church. But a couple of things to push back on that, and and one is um I'm quite certain that Grace Community Church has all the correct number of fire escapes and all the correct number of disabled access points and exactly the right number of you know toilets for the capacity of the building. I'm quite certain that uh when it caters for any event, that its kitchen is up to you know public health standards. Um and and I'm I'm quite certain that that they actually abide by all sorts of laws of the land. Yeah. And um actually the laws of the land would have allowed them to meet outdoors. Um, you know, some people say, oh, well, you know, you can't always meet outdoors because the weather might be too hot or too cold and that sort of thing. Well, sure, but but actually the weather's just just fine uh around Grace Community Church at this time of year. Um so I don't think it's actually true that Caesar was preventing them from worshiping um on that Lord's Day. And it's not true that the church is being singled out in a way that other mass gatherings are not. If if it was that, then maybe we're in you know really persecuted times, and I can understand why you might want to stand up against it. But for those for those reasons, I admired his courage, but I I I questioned the wisdom.
SPEAKER_06And didn't wasn't you'll have to correct me if I'm wrong, wasn't some of the the the reason given to do with, you know, well these are these are our part of our constitutional rights as Americans to be able to do these things and I mean was that well that was interesting.
SPEAKER_05What was interesting is that you know, and and maybe maybe there's wisdom in this, but towards God's people, it was an entirely theological defense. And we're we're resting on Acts 4 and 5, we're resting on, you know, Christ has lordship, not Caesar. Um but then when he went on on Fox um with Tucker Carlson, uh let me let me just play uh what he what he said there. Because at that stage it became essentially a political issue. Let's have a look.
SPEAKER_01Give us a quick overview of why you think you should reopen given the coronavirus.
SPEAKER_00Well, first of all and foremost, it's a First Amendment right. This is the United States of America, and the government can't intrude in worship. We stand on that amendment. The second thing that makes this so sensible is in the state of California, there are 40 million people. 8,500 of them have died with COVID. That's.002. So in California, you have a 99.99% chance to survive COVID. So why would you shut down the entire state? And particularly when people are frightened and sometimes terrified that they're going to die, shut down the church where most of the intense relationships in our society exist in the life of a church. It's multi-generational. We've had 21 weeks with no ministry to a thousand little children, to a thousand university students, to junior high students, high school students, senior adults. We've had no funerals, no weddings. I can't go to the hospital. I've had to go on the phone to talk to dying people at the hospital. And finally, I started preaching in an empty auditorium. I did it two weeks, three weeks, and the people, without us saying anything, started coming back. They didn't buy the narrative. They didn't buy it, and they started coming back. By the way, we're the original protesters. We go back 500 years to the Protestant Reformation. We're we're still protesting lies and deception for the sake of the truth. So they started coming back, and they kept coming back. And last Sunday, 3,000 of them came back, and they rejoiced and they hugged each other and they didn't wear masks and they sang songs, and um they understand the reality of it. I haven't had to say anything. We finally put out a document which you probably read, which affirms why this is right and why it's critical for our society.
SPEAKER_01And I would I hope our our viewers would read it. You're a brave man, Pastor MacArthur. I appreciate your coming on tonight. Godspeed.
SPEAKER_00Thank you.
SPEAKER_05Johnny Mack went on, and it was all about the First Amendment. It was all about freedom of speech, freedom of association, um, a political issue about there being no jurisdiction um in in these kinds of matters. And so um, you know, there was an opportunity, I thought, um, if you're gonna if you're gonna stand by what you stood by in terms of Acts 5, of going on a national platform and saying Jesus is Lord. Um but it it became a much more political and a politicized thing at that point.
SPEAKER_06It seems it seems it doesn't seem to quite tally together, does it, to say who should we obey, you know, the should we obey a man or should we obey Christ? And then for your reasoning to be this is our constitutional right under these laws of man. Um and I think you know, maybe the uh I I I don't think that would happen. I I don't think that would be so prevalent here. I think that's quite I that is quite an American thing in many ways. And I think you know, um many um Americans anyway are uh very much bound by their constitution. You know, it it's a huge thing for them. Um and I think it's I think the church is also uh that it's it's a sad to see as a Christian that the church seems so bound by uh you know American constitution in the sense that it almost would point to it like that, you know, and and it's a bit of an idol there for people.
SPEAKER_05Um I mean the I I I'm fully in support of people who want to say, you know, the state is encroaching on various areas of our lives. Um I just you know, and and wanting to, at a political level, push back against that and remain, you know, retain our freedom um of assembly and and freedom of religion, freedom of conscious, freedom from speech. Um I I can well understand Christians politically lobbying for all that sort of stuff, but but that's not fundamentally where we draw the line. That's not fundamentally where we stand um in these issues. But I I did think though that the the courage of a John MacArthur is needed, even though I I might disagree with the particular place that he took the stand. And and and I do think we're gonna have to show each other grace as different Christians um respond differently to these unprecedented times. There, I've used I've used the phrase these unprecedented times.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, yeah. I think I think the the the kind of the clinging what struck me is that very much like at least with the Tucker Carlson thing, there's this clinging to my rights kind of attitude there, which doesn't sit well with me uh as a Christian. Whereas I feel I feel that actually we are we ought to lay down our rights um in certain cases if it's for the benefit of others. So, you know, we people were talked about that rope, those Romans verses, you know, we were talking about before, but the verses that came to mind for me was more the Philippians 2 stuff, you know, about um each of you should look not only to yourselves, to your own interest, but also to the interest of others and your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus. And then of course we get the the great kind of little kind of hymn of Philippians 2 of Christ being the one who, though he had all these this position of power and and it the rightfully that was his, he steps down and gives that up, you know, gives that up for the sake of others. And so I think in this case, you know, for me that's that's more the angle I would take that yes, you know, you you you've got the right to exercise your constitutional right here, but for the sake of other um, because that is the loving thing to do, and and because you're not being asked not to meet at all or to have you know, you're not being banned from meeting or anything like that in in the sense of being quashed as Christians. It is everybody, and it's for a good reason. Now uh people will say, oh, but it's the beginning of a slippery slope, I'm sure. But um I I just don't I don't think I'd buy that in this circumstance.
SPEAKER_05But I think in Nevada there was a there was a Supreme Court case about churches in Nevada um were were sort of um more restricted than casinos. Um obviously Nevada, the home of Las Vegas. Um and you know, and and I can I can understand people being upset at that stage that you're you know you're you're allowed to play blackjack, you're not allowed to worship on a Sunday. Um I I can understand people getting kind of upset about that. But when when the rules are you know the same for one as for the other, and when there is the option of um there is the option of of meeting outdoors, there it there is also um the creativity that's um is um is required of all sorts of Christians, for instance in China, um, who you know, once you get over 200, you really show up on the on the radar of the Chinese Communist Party. And so that that's birthed a kind of a church planting methodology where when churches get to a certain size, they just split and split and split and split and split. And very interestingly, you know, the Chinese Communist Party are forcing a lot of um uh Christians to have a very profoundly biblical ecclesiology and pastors who actually know the names of their sheep and and and that kind of thing. So um so yeah, worshiping the Lord is not outlawed. Um and and you know, there might be more creative ways, and and maybe maybe the Lord Himself is forcing us to consider um smaller gatherings, multiplying our gatherings, house churches, and life-on-life discipleship, um, because that's not outlawed. Um there are all sorts of um all sorts of ways that we are meant to disciple one another that do not you know require us to have you know hundreds of people in a building indoors. Um and if we've become overly reliant on that, maybe the Lord is pushing us into other areas of of discipleship that have been neglected. Um it's certainly um it's certainly worth considering. And you know, the other thing to say about um John MacArthur is I think the the response is not to do the opposite of John MacArthur. I think the uh the the response is not to retreat and never say boo to a goose um and lock ourselves down more than than what is necessary. Um and I do see that that that is a problem. And I I I do see um temperamentally, just with individual households, it seems like as many households as broke the lockdown rules in those first three months, um as as many people actually overly locked down and locked down more than what the regulations um stipulate. I think that's that's a mistake as well. Um and as we've said before, there's the fearfulness that becomes a vicious cycle. So I was just reminded by Jackie Lamb, um, who is a church leader, um, he's also a lawyer in uh in Hong Kong, and his church um was fascinating when it was totally against the law, um, they did not meet. Um, but when there were certain stipulations that enabled them in certain circumstances to meet, um they were very careful about it and they met, even though other churches were a little bit um anyway. Should we have a look at the clip of of Jackie Lamb, who I think trod a very wise path of both wisdom and courage? Um and if we've got that clip lined up, let's let's hear it in his own words, how um he and his church in Hong Kong uh sought to navigate these waters.
SPEAKER_02So this is the thing, and and one of the things I wanted to um have an opportunity to share about, and because a lot of this is very um new, back in SARS, there was no rich access to technology, internet was probably running on a 52k speed. I for I forget what it was back then. Um but then now everyone is blessed with broadband and you can do live meetings and so forth. So now people um to err on the side of caution with with preferred online meetings. And so you have online Bible studies, you have online services. Um, but then uh in one of the articles that uh that that I read, um the South China Morning Post, I think it was published about three weeks ago, it was doing a survey of how different churches have been responding. And so, you know, on the one hand, you have churches which um do the online meetings, and on the other hand, you have churches which have decided not to close. And their rationale is that they liken the church to a hospital, and to close the church could give off an impression that we are perhaps fearful of the circumstances. Um now, uh the church that I attend um uh is adopting the view that um we as a leadership feel quite strongly that we should maintain um the church doors to be open. But of course, there's no pressure for people to come in person. They can log in online if they'd like to, and that for anyone coming in person that they uh they do the usual hygiene, so they wash their hands, they they come in face masks if they feel comfortable to. Um, hand sanitizers are provided at the door uh and so forth. And we wipe down all the chairs after every meeting. Uh, and then the temperature checks uh are also done where where we could get them done, uh especially for children's ministry. We still keep them open, and so all children have their temperature checks. If anyone is sick, or if anyone has traveled from the mainland, we've asked them not to attend in person. So we we on the one hand, we try our best to listen to the medical policies and guidelines. On the other hand, we want to make sure that we don't completely forsake the possibility of meeting in person because I think there is a lot of value where possible to meet in person. Um, just because many people in our church um well, not many, I think there's a fair number in our church that if isolated for too long, it's not it's not unheard of that they may face certain types of depression and and online doesn't resolve that. And meeting someone online doesn't really um in many ways fulfill the true dynamic of that relationship. And so I think for many people, um actually, so during this time, because many churches have closed down and we are one of the few that have still kept services running, uh, some of their flock has come over to our church just for physical meetings. And and in many ways we've been blessed with with their presence and sort of until they return back to the to their church body, you know, we welcome them um where they would like to come.
SPEAKER_03Do you feel any judgment from you know other Christians thinking, uh no, this is the unloving thing to do, you you could be carriers? Yeah, absolutely.
SPEAKER_02Uh look, I think that's that's it the the biggest fight we have, ironically, is not with non-believers. Um the biggest fight we have is is is with believers because um you know, in many ways, people can adopt many views about common sense. They could say that common sense is from God. So if you if you're using your common sense, then you would be loving to other people by not attending in person, especially for members who have elderly um parents at home and they live with their parents, and my wife and I, we don't live with our parents. Um, so that the risk by comparison seems to be lower. Um so we need to be sensitive to that. There is no formula. We we can't say, well, um, because the church doors are open, then you must come in person. And we we we certainly don't expect that. Um it's more for people to make a reasoned uh and prayer-filled decision before they come. Uh and so there is no compulsion. Um so we we we do we we make it very clear every Sunday that you know, please be careful, don't be reckless. Uh, we don't want to be a bad witness. Uh, and of course, every week the the same debate goes on and on, you know, why are why our doors open? Um, and of course, uh it the judgment goes both ways as well. Because on the one hand, people may judge us for being unloving. On the other hand, it's very easy for church door churches where their doors are open to judge other churches and say, why have you closed your door? Um and so that's that's not right either.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, very interesting. And and uh, and it kind of um goes to a question that uh Paul Crauber has had on the live chat. He said that uh Dihanke tweeted yesterday, uh he's a church leader in Wales. Uh Dihanke tweeted about the challenge of having Christians from other churches who are still online um turning up to his church because his church is meeting in person and they want to go to an in-person gathering. Um what should he do with those? You know, he feels like you know, he doesn't want to be sheep stealing. Um but but some of the flock are showing up in person because they're they're not getting that from their from their regular church. Um, what should he do about that? Interestingly, Jackie had exactly that sort of situation and and he sort of said, well, they've been blessing us with their presence, um, but but he will encourage them to go back to their churches when they when they do meet, yeah um physically. I think I think that would be my I think that would be my counsel to to Die Hanky as well, that um, okay, those those people are in your presence right now and you can bless them in in person, but do all that you can to you know encourage them to join their own flock when their own flock does meet.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, I mean I think the thing that I I I like about the the approach Jackie talks about there is you know they're they're saying, well, we are gonna keep going insofar as we're allowed, but we we're gonna we're gonna take precautions. You know, we're we're we're gonna we're gonna say to people, look, wear your mask, we've got hand sanitizer, if you've got any symptoms, if your temperatures up, you know, you know, don't come. And if you've been to the mainland, you know, fine, don't don't come, all those things. Um, and also don't feel under compulsion to be here, like, and you don't you don't have to come, that's fine. And um I think you which seems slightly different to the the the John MacArthur church where everyone's there with no masks and seemingly just not any real effort to to distance or anything like that at all. I think that it comes with it it's a very different thing. Um and I think there's this just seems like it's it's much more wisdom perhaps in in the what's going on there in Hong Kong with Jackie Lamb than perhaps in the in the California setting.
SPEAKER_05Um yeah, yeah. When we when we first I think our very first um live cast about plagues and pestilence uh was looking at sort of historical approaches to you know plague because we're not the first people to encounter pestilence. And you know, down through history we we had a look at um a whole bunch of different people, including Luther. And it was very interesting, you know, Luther saying, look, when when the pestilence hit Wittenberg, um he he said, Look, if there are people that you need to stay and take care of, then you need to stay and take care of them, no matter what the danger is. But if you don't have ties in that way, then feel free to flee. Um and it's but it seemed like um he was very commonly in letters having to say to people, look, some people will take one decision about whether to flee Wittenberg, and some people take a different decision about whether to stay and care for the sick. Um, and we need to give grace to each person, you know, before each person's master, a man stands or falls, and and and Christ is able to make them stand. And at that stage, you know, we're back in that Romans 14 territory. Um, that different people are going to take different, um, different positions on this. And Luther was very, very um sensitive to the fact that we're always trying to find our identity and our righteousness in something that we've done. You know, and you know, how much more is that the case these days when you know we find our identity in in our social media updates or in or in our views? You know, I've got the right view about lockdown, or I've got the right, I've got the right view about this cause or that cause. And we so we so quickly latch onto that as the marker of my righteousness. And therefore, if you don't have the same thing as I have, well, you must be inferior, and I've got to look down on you. Um, but yeah, what would it what would it take to have a true gospel sensibility where I say, actually, um, you know, my my views on lockdown and my views on the best way that church can navigate these times, um, I could be totally wrong about that. But I'm right in Christ, and he is my righteousness, and I'm not going to look down on anyone who takes a different decision. It's easy to say, it's hard to do, I think.
SPEAKER_06Um, yeah, and I I I that I think that's true. And I mean, I just wonder, is there a difference between the the things Luther's talking about there slightly and maybe like these two cases, the churches we've just looked at. In that Luther's talking about there are those who will flee, who will feel like it's it's better to be away from where the illness is and avoid catching it, spreading it, all those things. And those who are staying were staying to care and look after people who perhaps needed that help, couldn't look after themselves, or they, you know, they were family members or whatever. Whereas the the MacArthur thing doesn't seem like it's not that side. It's you know, uh it to me it seems just a more kind of uh we want to do what we want to do. It it's not to it's not to help people, it's because we want to do it, which seems a slightly different angle, but I might be wrong.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean what well you know to stick to stick up for uh to stick up for John MacArthur for a bit, um I think there is never a perfectly safe option. Um and if someone wants to factor in the dangers of not meeting together, because you know Hebrews 10 says that we should we should not make it a habit of not meeting together. Um and the and that there are spiritual dangers that need to be attended to as much as physical dangers. Um so you know, even though, as I say, I I think it was unwise the certain decision that John MacArthur made, at least one of the things motivating him, I think, is that um you can never be safe from everything that can be possibly classed as dangerous, and that there are spiritual dangers as well as physical dangers. And let's you know, let's be let's be attendant to those um as well. Christopher Brown has commented on uh live chat, what we're not the first, we're not the first to have uh encountered pestilence, but I thought these times were unprecedented. And then uh Liza Whitehead has uh commented, I miss precedented times.
SPEAKER_06Absolutely.
SPEAKER_05Bring back precedented times, please. Uh but yes, let's let's give grace to one another because you know I mean my intention in in raising the John MacArthur um issue is is to say actually that there is some courage there in John MacArthur that I do admire, even though I think the wisdom uh is is lacking. And and I think theologically, um if he's if he's going to say why what are you what are you laughing about? No, I just it's a wonderful paused screen you've got there, uh Paul, with your eyes closed. We'll we'll get Paul back in a second. But um I mean I mean I think the the the thing about um I think if John MacArthur doesn't doesn't think that the government has any jurisdiction whatsoever um in terms of you keep getting cut off. It's not it's not me.
SPEAKER_06Am I back now? Am I back? What were you saying, Paul? I th well I I think it says something about my contribution to the live cast that I can actually dip.
SPEAKER_05And you're just not noticed, yeah. Not noticed. Actually, there's a sort of a twofold sphere of authority. But also Caesar can make all sorts of stipulations on the safety requirements, as I've said. Do you have enough emergency exits? Do you have enough disabled access? Do you have enough toilets for the capacity of the building? Do you have health and safety stipulations adhered to in your kitchen, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera? So I think I think there are some things that are that are lacking there in uh in John MacArthur's response. But I do think the courage that I see in him, I see reflected um beautifully and wisely in someone like Jackie Lamb, who is dealing in a Hong Kong situation in which the authorities that could clamp down have uh you know and are not trying to adhere to the US Constitution at all. Um and yet I think he's he's seeking to be wise and to love neighbor, and I think he's seeking to uphold um the stuff in Romans 14 and 15 that we really need to cling on to at this time, that whatever privileges we have are to be used for the service of others. And uh that's what I hope we we we take from this. Well, with all sorts of uh reception issues and uh internet buffering issues, I think we should probably draw stumps uh there, Paul. Um but uh bam, yeah. Just about just about just about here. Yeah, just about here. Well, guys, uh we are going on holiday for the next two weeks. Uh so we won't have a live live cast for the next two weeks, but do stay tuned for um a fascinating conversation I had with uh Tapani Simeyoki, uh, who is uh a Lutheran pastor here in the UK, and who um I I think he's the first pastor um to have communion. Um yeah, uh coming coming out of lockdown. And um, but we we we talk about um far more deep and profound things than that. We talk we talk about Lutheranism, we talk about uh what is the difference between just being a Luther fanboy uh and actually um inheriting the the rich tradition of Lutheranism? And uh there's lots of lots of different um truth bombs that he's gonna um uh uh explode on you. Uh so do stay tuned for that. Uh we've also got another couple of uh videos coming out. But um uh do we do we trust you, Paul? Do you do we trust your connection uh so that so that you can let people know how people can get in touch with us? I don't know. Can you even hear me? Yes, good.
SPEAKER_06Okay, so get in touch, all the usual avenues. speaklife.org.uk is our website. You can contact us through there, or you can find us on Facebook and Instagram and Twitter, kind of all the major social media feeds. Um so you can contact us through there. You can find us on YouTube, obviously, Speak Life UK. If you search for our channel there, you can find all the videos, um, all the resources that we've got. Um, and yeah, I mean that's that's pretty much everything, isn't it? That is everything, guys.
SPEAKER_05We hope you have a wonderful uh next couple of weeks, and we'll see you on the other side. God bless. See you later. Take care.