Hello and welcome to the Speak Life live cast. My name is Glenn Scrivener, and joining me in Crowborough is Paul Feasy. Hello, Paul. Hello. How are you doing? What accent was that? That's that's that's how are you doing? It almost sounded Australian. How's it going?
SPEAKER_05I was gonna say something else, and I I just I got confused in the middle of a sentence.
SPEAKER_02You just I was in between diction. And that that is the Australian accent. Yeah. Um yes, we are talking today about church out of the box um because we are noticing what everybody's noticing in these conditions that uh showing up on a Sunday morning, um, there is there are wonderful things about it, and we find it oh so precious uh to be with the saints. Um but you know our buildings have have to, by law, feel incredibly empty. We have to be masked, we can't sing. There are all sorts of regulations on our times together that mean that Sunday mornings are uh times of joy because we're with God's people and times of frustration. So what do we do about that? And um perhaps there are ways of thinking out of the box. And we'll in this episode um be talking to Susie Leif, who is the director of operations at GAFCON UK, and to Michael Otts, an evangelist who was recently on uh the livecast, uh, who both have some um wild and crazy ideas about how we can think of church outside the box. But um, Paul, uh what's what's been your experience of um church as as we've transitioned from kind of the Zoom church thing to the live church thing? What's been your experience of that?
SPEAKER_05Um yeah, I mean, I guess my experience, um, we've been back in church for three weeks or so on a Sunday morning. Um and you know, it's it's been okay. Um it's been nice to be back in the building. Um nice to kind of uh see people a little bit. Um but it's i it's obviously not the same as it was. Um and I think the thing I'm noticing still off the back of it is quite a lot of loss of the fellowship aspect, I think, more than anything. Um it feels like we're not it still feels like I'm not really having much fellowship with with other people. Um maybe even less than we were before.
SPEAKER_02Right. So the sir the service ends and obviously uh you're not milling around inside the church building. But that are there places where you can congregate and and and speak together outside the building?
SPEAKER_05Uh yeah, so we've got a there's a green outside the church, and the at least one of the weeks we kind of spilled out and chatted afterwards. Um and that didn't really happen this week, at least at the service I was at so much. Um so I mean there are there is space which is is good whilst the whilst the weather holds. Um But I I mean I think as the the thing uh I'm noticing as well is that you're just there's a lot of people who just aren't there, and that could be for different reasons, you know, you can't physically fit them in, or maybe they just they they can't come. Maybe it's shielding, or there's there's particular reasons they can't be there. So it still feels like in a sense we're not quite back together. Um so yeah, it's it's a bit of a struggle, and that's not at all a knock on what the church are doing, so that you know the church done a great job. Um but obviously they're limited by what they can do. You know, the the the constraints that are put on them by the government and um the Church of England itself as well, um, means you you you have certain restrictions in place that makes it makes it tricky. So, you know, uh I think it it is nice to be back, but uh I'm certainly sitting in there feeling like it's it's I still feel like I'm I'm missing something here, but we're we're not really back in the midst of it again yet.
SPEAKER_02No, no, right. I put on Twitter, you know, um it it feels so anemic on a Sunday morning. What should we do, friends? And uh Esther O'Reilly, who's also been on on the show um before, um she uh she tweeted back one word, rebel. Um which I responded, Americans, that's your answer to everything. Um tread on me, man. Rebel. Um and and like I totally I totally get that as an instinctive like response. Um and I and I think uh another response that would be sort of stereotypically British would be just make do. Make do. Okay, it's it's it's not the best, you know, kind of thing, but but let's just make our peace with it and make do. Um and I guess I guess I I will I want to I want to figure out is there a third is there a third way? Um is that's not that's not just rebelling against the law. Because I mean we've we've spoken before about um people who have taken the view that this is a Romans 13, this is a moment of of kind of exception to Romans 13, um, where we must obey God and not man, and whatever the law says, um we we will meet. And um and sort of explained in that episode, I I don't think that's um the case right now, certainly not in the UK. I I I don't think the regulations that are being applied to the church um are specifically anti-Christian. I don't think they are trying to crush Christian faith in this country through this legislation. Um, you know, I'm I'm always a fan of that maxim that says, you know, don't attribute to malevolence anything that could be better explained by incompetence. Um when you when you look at you know government stipulations for for things, um, I'm I'm far more likely to see um just a mess. And I I I don't attribute um the specific regulations that have been given to churches as as anti-Christian. Um it would be nice if they trust just incompetent.
SPEAKER_05Yeah. Which is I think there'd be a number of people who would who would be able to get on board with that.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah, I think so. I'm building a coalition. Um just find a common enemy. Yeah, yeah. But most specifically, it would be nice to be trusted as much as Tesco's is trusted. It would be nice to it would be nice to be trusted as much as pubs were trusted. That would be nice. And I and I think I think we should legally be making challenges to say, hang on, um, if pubs are allowed to do XX, why are churches not allowed to do X?
SPEAKER_05Yeah, particularly when you consider that I mean pubs, basically their their job, their money, you know, they get their money from helping you lose your inhibitions, you know, which is probably not the thing you it'll be fine though. It'll be fine.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Yeah, a guy on Twitter just tweeted me this morning that it was it was galling to go out to um the pub with his wife the other night and like everyone was singing in the pub. And that's okay. Yeah, yeah. We can't do it on a Sunday morning, you know. Um, so I understand the instinct to rebel. Um, but uh like for me, I I don't think we're at that that stage. Um I also don't want to go down the route of just making do because I I think something quite dangerous is happening. And I think it's it's slipping away from us if we're if we're not careful. And I don't think we can make make do. I think we need to innovate if there was if there was a one-word response, you know. Yeah, outside the thing.
SPEAKER_05I think that's the thing that's the thing that's kind of for me, not just in church, but actually all of all all of life, in the last two weeks or so, I've just kind of come to the realization, it slowly dawned, that um people I hate the phrase the new normal, but it it's it is what it is, it's being used. Um at unprecedented levels. Unprecedented levels, apart from the last time. Yeah. Um but the the the idea really that I've or the thing I've been that's been dawning on me is that we're we're we've been in this for five months. And we could be in it who knows, another five months. Who knows how long it's gonna go on? And a lot of the stuff that I've been doing in my my own life or at all the things we've been doing in terms of church, there there's a sense in which it's been, well, we can do this because it's just for this season, and then this will pass, you know. The question is, at what point does it become such a long season that just kind of like you say, making do and not quite doing things the way you would do, how when does that become a problem? Um, you know, so if we're in this for another five months, do we just want to do what we're doing in church now for another five months? Um, or do we need to think differently about church because it it isn't the same, it's just it can't be. Um and as I you know, we've been kind of chatting about this a little bit, you know. Um my concern is if this is what we do in church for the next five months or longer, um in a sense I'm not too worried about what Sunday looks like. I'm just more concerned about the fact we're not really having fellowship with other Christians. There's going to be lots of people who um are in danger of drifting away because of the way church is at the moment. People who are not not fringe people, people who are just kind of you know, who are maybe quite regular churchgoers. Um I suppose what this season has done for us or shown us, or the position it's put us in as Christians, is we've we've all got to take in a sense a greater personal responsibility for our own walk. Um and so I guess th in terms of that responsibility thing, you know, my experience has been as someone I I think, you know, I'm quite plugged in to church, um, relatively switched on, you know, I'm sitting at home thinking, you know, about non-Christians and stuff and how we do church and how we, you know, we we're part of the team for this congregation, how do we make that work? Um I work at Speak Life, you know. Even in that position, I would say I found these last five months really, really hard to keep going as a Christian. Um and I think, well, if that's my experience as someone who's been quite heavily involved or is heavily involved in church, there's gonna be lots of people who just I don't have that. And my concern is how are people being discipled through this time? So we can watch something on a Sunday on a screen or turn up and kind of get this kind of s slightly anemic version of church. But my concern is that those people who are like I say, not just not fringe members necessarily, but more casual will just kind of gradually drift. That church going to church has been a habit, maybe. Not saying they don't believe that they're not real believers, but church is very habitual. And now we get into the habit of not being in church and gradually drifting away. Um and so how do we do that? And then also I was thinking about evangelism, you know, so much as I was sitting in church on Sunday, I was thinking so much of what we do in terms of evangelism is about like we're gonna run this course, invite someone to this course, or invite them to church. And like you can still do some courses. I know people have been running a few things and there've been success there. Um but the whole thing is just a lot trickier, isn't it? That the the idea of inviting someone to church at the moment is just it it seems like a logistical nightmare. You know, I've got a book online for my family, and then if someone else wants to come, you want to say, well, can they come? But they can't, I'm not sure they can sit with us on all these kind of things. Um and I think my concern is that the phrase I mean think about is it it feels a bit like the church, and I mean the wider church here, is slightly hamstrung. Like this has caught us out a bit. Like now we can't get together. We've kind of gone, well, how do we how do we actually do this? You know, how do we disciple people? How do we how are we supposed to do evangelism if we can't bring people to the church and things? And I wonder we've just been caught out a little bit.
SPEAKER_02Um Yeah, yeah. Well, it it's it's revealed to us that actually Zoom is not a substitute for gathering. Um and you know, Hebrews 12 talks about, you know, you come to Mount Zion, and um it gives this very spiritual, you know, um idea that you know you come to angels upon angels, and and um that that church um you know you you I'm on Mount Zion even as I'm at all souls eastbourne. Um so you you you could, and and I've actually used Hebrews 12 a couple of times when I've preached online during lockdown, and I've kind of said, look, we are kind of together, even though even though we're not together physically, we are on Mount Zion together. There's a spiritual sense. Um, but I think I think I've over egged that because before you get to Hebrews 12, you've got Hebrews 10. Um let us not give up meeting together as some are in the habit of doing, but let us encourage one another and all the more as you see the day approaching. And what's interesting there is it's a habit to go to church and it's a habit to not go to church. It's a habit to gather and you can get into the habit of not going, of not gathering. Um, and we're we're all we've all we're all in that habit. Let's let's be honest. Like you could be a vicar, you could be a pastor of a church. You're in the habit of not gathering with God's people. How do you how do you how do you break that? Um it'll it'll take some out-of-the-box thinking, I think.
SPEAKER_05Um I think like so you you'd posted on Facebook yesterday asking for people um you'd posted yesterday, hadn't you kind of asking people how um how do we get out of this kind of anemic church type thing? How do we what's the answer to yeah, anemic church? Yeah, what's the answer to that? Um and you know, we're gonna hear from some people who've who've who've had some ideas on how to do that. Um But I think interestingly in the discussion, a lot of people's thing is it is about Sunday, is about how to make Sunday better. And uh a big thing seems to be about singing, so that seems to be a lot of people's issue at the moment is around well, we can't sing together. Um, you know, and I I would like to sing together. Um but I think as well, if if tomorrow the government said yeah, you can go to church on Sunday and you can all sing, I don't think that would allay the the the fears and concerns I have. I mean, uh I in a s in one sense I'm not rem not that bothered about singing, you know. Um my concern is the lack of real fellowship we're having, and it's for the people that are just gonna drift off because they can't get into church or that they you know they they're not inclined to um and like so we you you might have i in in a normal season of church we'd have Sunday and then you'd have house groups, and of course there'd be people in house groups and people who aren't, and those ones who aren't in house groups, you'd normally expect still to see them on a Sunday, so they're still getting picked up somehow um in person, you know, face to face. Um but I if that if that's not there at all, if they're not really in church on Sunday because church isn't happening or they're not inclined anymore, and there's not this kind of gathering in smaller groups, I just think there's a big danger that when we come back, if it you know, let's say five months from now they say everything's lifted, back to normal. It wouldn't surprise me if we turned up and suddenly we found that there was just loads of people who we'd thought were kind of solid-ish members, but who had just disappeared.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, just not there. Yeah. Oh yeah.
SPEAKER_05Just not there.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_05And I and that's what worries me. Like I, you know, I was thinking, you know, as I said, thinking about evangelism, thinking about the front door, but then I thought, what about the back door? And I wonder if we're gonna have some big backdoor problems. Yes. Um, because of this. Oh yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, absolutely. And and I think yeah, your your instinctive reaction is better than my instinctive reaction. Because, you know, my my when I when I think, okay, Sunday morning's not very impressive, how do we make it more impressive? Whereas you're you're thinking about a much more holistic kind of answer, life on life discipleship, all through the week, um, the pastoral care of the saints and um and and the nurture of the flock, not just um bringing them in the front door. Um those those are those are huge issues that are yeah, that are not gonna have a a single single straightforward answer. But I think one one thing I'll I'll raise a banner for is I still think the event of gathering is worth prizing and prioritizing in our life. Um that the because there's the pendulum often swings, and and at one end of the of the swing um is where everything's about Sunday and it's this massive production, and everyone everyone's on stage and there's smoke and lights and it's amazing. Um, but there's no discipleship going on, there's no pastoral care, it's it's all about the Sunday event. And that's that's no good. At the other end, there can be this kind of um yeah, all of life is worship, so Sunday doesn't matter at all. Um and therefore all of life is actually discipleship. And um and and actually at that stage, you never get the sense of a day of rest, you never get the sense of meeting on Mount Zion to hear from the Lord, to be refreshed and renewed, to simply receive and be passive on the Sunday so that you can walk down Mount Zion out into your your work a day life, you know, um for the for the rest of the week. Um and so I uh yeah, I I think it's gotta be both. And and and therefore we do need we do need to address Sunday somehow as well.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, and I don't disagree with that. I mean, I I think again, I think the way you described it was you're kind of okay with Sunday being a breathe in, you know, like people coming to church and that's the moment we kind of just we drink it in, yeah, and that allows us to then breathe it out during the week. Um and I quite like that. And I d I don't disagree um at all.
SPEAKER_04Um I think my my my my th my issue is I think we we can probably do more for Sunday, but that's undoubtedly the case, so it will maybe get better. Um but it might not get a lot better than what it is for a long time.
SPEAKER_05So i i if if sunday isn't gonna get any better we've got to we've got to think more about the rest of the week um in some other way. Um you know, like like i if let's say you know maliciously the government did turn around and say church is not allowed to meet at all, you can't do it, you you can't have Sunday services what on earth would we do? You know, if we if they just said no more, no meeting in buildings, no, no, no even you know, you can't even stream your service on a Sunday, let's imagine, you know. What would we do? You know, we'd we'd have to think we'd rebel well that would be maybe the rebellion stage, yeah. Um But we we need to find a way to to try and pick people up. And the I think the issue is, I mean, it's a it's a lot of work, and uh the you know, if you're trying to think practically what can you do at the moment, you know, well we can begin to meet in people's houses in groups of up to six, I think, can't you? Or um depending on number of households and things like that. Um you know, I would love to see us move towards something like that. With still oversight from from above, you know, what we don't want is a lot of different church plants with just you know, six people here, six people there. I think you still want to be under that one congregation. You maybe want some teaching coming from a central spot, but we want to be maybe physically in a room together if we can, praying with each other, and maybe there are those who can't come because of whatever reasons, and maybe still you have people who zoom into your particular cell or whatever, I don't know. Um maybe there's a sermon that comes centrally from somewhere that you then chat about and and whatnot.
SPEAKER_02But um And I think a lot of churches are moving towards that that kind of thing, but on Sundays they sort of meet in houses or gardens and and many more families kind of gather together to watch the central sermon and and that sort of thing. So yeah, I I think ch churches are gravitating towards that that sort of decentralized model. Um Which sounds sounds healthy to me. Um, go on.
SPEAKER_05No, I was just gonna say that i if if you if if you were to be doing that and and we were trying to pick up all those people, so not just kind of like the normal people who would meet in house groups, but actively very much on top of everybody and and ringing round and saying, hey, come be with us or can you zoom into us and stuff. I think the benefit would be that when we do finally get back to something different on a Sunday, you would find a lot of great growth that occurred anyway, you know. Um I'm not saying we're not doing this at all. Uh you know, of course this has been happening in in many ways for years and years in in in house groups, but I think we need to push probably deeper into that and pick up more people in a time like this because there's more danger of people disappearing and not coming back.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. But I think to put to put myself in a church leader's shoes, um, I think a lot of church leaders are very tired. Um and it's you know, September is meant to be the time when you've you've just rested well and you're raring to go into the autumn term, and you know, and actually we're moving into you know ever more uncertainty and we're frazzled and we've tried new things, and the the learning curve for for you know vicars and pastors has been immense, having to get to grips with all sorts of new technologies and and and things like that and new systems. And um so yeah, well yeah, whatever we say here is is not at all meant to make any chance. Let us pull their hair out and say, we're trying so hard. Yeah, no, we're all trying very, very hard. Yeah.
SPEAKER_05And also, I mean, they in uh some of this discussion came off the back of the an article from the Gospel Coalition, um which had commented how the book The Trellis and the Vine, which is about 10 years old, had had had come up with this hypothetical idea of a pandemic that stopped us meeting. I mean, one of the things I say in there to ministers is you know, limit how long you think about tech and stuff like that, but think about theological and pastoral issues. So make sure you don't spend your week going, like, oh, how are we gonna get the Zoom thing up? How are we gonna get this recorded or whatnot? But I actually think like pastorally and theologically, what is it that my congregation needs? Um, I was listening to a podcast and they were saying they were saying, you know, like imagine Ian, you know, he's 26, he's a single dad, he works from seven in the morning till seven in the evening. How do we grow him? Or Betty, who's 80 and she's a new Christian, how do we make sure she grows? Um and obviously people have different people in their congregations, but thinking about those kind of things, I guess, will help us to see, you know, if we just do this thing on a Sunday, who are we missing? Um and and how can we help these people in our congregation that maybe wouldn't who are gonna get missed? I don't know.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. I mean it takes a lot of work, but it's a lot of work, yeah. It's it's it's a vocation, isn't it? You know, well, yeah, yeah. It's a calling. Um yeah, but I mean the Sunday gathering performs so many services because you're picking up with Betty and you're picking up with, you know, all the different members of your congregation. You can get around and see people and you notice who's not there instantly. And um Sunday, Sunday morning actually performs a lot of a lot of those tasks of people checking in with you and you being able to check with everybody else. Um so yeah, being hamstrung in that in that area just really has knock-on effects for you know the the whole rest of church life, really. Um should we should we have a look at Susie Leaf? Um because um their church has been doing something very, very interesting for the last seven weeks. And I uh recorded this interview with uh Susie just earlier, uh, where for just a few minutes uh she explains some of the ways that they've been thinking outside the box. As we think about church outside the box, I'm uh joined by Susie Leif, who's the Director of Operations for GAFCON UK, and also a member of Anchor Church, Anchor Anglican Church in FOI. Thank you so much for joining us.
SPEAKER_00Thank you for having me, Glenn. It's great to be here.
SPEAKER_02Now, our whole title for today and thinking about church outside the box has come from uh a series of really uh helpful PDFs that you have produced and a whole bunch of uh resources that GAFCON uh have released helping church leaders to think outside the box. And in particular, um one of the things you've been um advocating for is meeting outside. And uh and that's something that you've done at Anchor Anglican Church in FOIA. How long have you been meeting outdoors for?
SPEAKER_00I think it's about seven weeks now, six, seven weeks. So it was the second week after we were able to. Um we wanted to spend we where the government guidelines changed, uh we had already been thinking about it, but we wanted to have a final session um with everybody on Zoom to talk through with the congregation what we were going to do, what it would feel like, um, give people the opportunity to go up to the site that we'd be using just so that everybody would feel comfortable and any questions and any wisdom that they had as we set up could be uh brought together and everyone would feel comfortable on the day.
SPEAKER_02Terrific. And what where is the sites that you you meet? Paint a picture for us.
SPEAKER_00So well, we're up on the top of a cliff. Um, it's the Foy Lankelli Rugby Club. So we use one corner of their pitch. They're not playing at the moment, uh, but they do have a clubhouse which they wonderfully open for us so that we can grab a cup of coffee after the service, and they have uh they've got all their sort of socially distance toilets and everything else set up in that place, which has just been brilliant. I think it's a real community linking up of two groups.
SPEAKER_02Yes, yeah. So why have you taken the decision to meet physically? Doesn't Zoom provide all your needs?
SPEAKER_00Oh, well, you know, at the beginning of lockdown, I think Zoom was brilliant, and we did uh a huge again with GAFGON UK, we were training people um in using Zoom and we were great advocates for it. But after a while, that um physicality, that sense of being people who who are um need to see each other, um, to be with each other, um, was just becoming too much. And we wanted to say, actually, let's let's gather, let's see what happens, um, let's praise God together.
SPEAKER_02And what's it been like?
SPEAKER_00Oh, it's just been a joy, it really has. I think the first week just seeing the cars driving into the car park, um, people unloading with various chairs, and uh a bit like the first week of Zoom, where you saw people seeing each other for the first time, and there was that real just sign of recognition and joy at seeing family again. Um, it was that sense once again of being together to worship the Lord. It was great. Um, and it's been uh a really helpful way by being outside a church building as well, um, and doing what we do in public, as it were, it's been a really good connection with other people. So we talk about sort of intentional integration into the community, and um people walk along the there's a the lane that leads to the rugby club also leads down um onto the cliffs and onto the beach, and so people are often walking their dogs along there, and a number of people have just been walking past and then just come in and and stood on the stood on the touch line and and watched what's going on. Uh the other week we had a couple of boys who uh members of the rugby club who spent the whole service just uh practicing their kicks. But they could hear what's going on and they could see that we were happy that they were doing that, um, and hopefully maybe something of the message uh will have um got into their minds, and they know that church isn't a strange place to go in the future.
SPEAKER_02Right. So you're amplified and you have musicians leading in in worship, people singing along as well.
SPEAKER_00We have so we we use recorded music in our normal church, so we've just carried on doing that. So we have recorded music, um, amplified. Um we've had to get the sound right so that we're not causing a problem to our neighbours. Um and uh we are uh yes, we did a full risk assessment. So before we met, um our leadership team uh went through all of the government guidance, um went to the Devon and Cornwall Police, took our guidance to them, said, is this going to be uh an appropriate thing to be doing? They said, Yep, that's fine. And so uh we uh allow people to sing along as long as not too loudly.
SPEAKER_04Yes.
SPEAKER_00We're so far spaced out. I mean, there's you know, probably a maximum of a 110, 120 in a very large rugby pitch.
SPEAKER_02Yes, okay. And so you've you've done the risk assessment, you're socially distancing people, um, you do sort of track and trace, you you you're monitoring.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, we do track and track and trace. So as people arrive, there's someone there with a mask and um uh with a information just about how to keep safe. And they're asked if they've had any symptoms in the last seven days, and if they have, if they say they have, then we ask them just to turn around and go away. Um, but if they're symptom-free, then we all let them to come in, track and trace. Uh there's sanitizer everywhere. Um, yeah, it's been it's been really, it's just been a real uh, it's been a people have felt very safe.
SPEAKER_02Yes. Um has everybody felt very safe? Because I I I think uh a lot of church leaders are discovering that there are there are very different uh approaches to risk uh among our people. Um what what do you do for those um who don't feel able to join you on the football pitch? Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00So we've got rugby, you must get that right.
SPEAKER_02Rugby, sorry, rugby pitch.
SPEAKER_00We'll be we'll be in a lot of trouble if we start claiming it's a football pit. The footy, it's just the footy. It's just the footy, yeah, that's right. Um uh we are so um we have about five members of the congregation uh who for one reason or another um are shielding themselves. And so what we have is we film the service in two ways. We have a Zoom camera, we have two mobile phones set up. One is LinkedIn to Zoom, where members of the congregation are watching it through Zoom, and then after the service, uh someone is responsible for picking up the Zoom camera, and there's a chance for those people to interact with other members of the congregation who are there in the field. Um, and then the other one is our Instagram live feed, um, which then gets put onto YouTube afterwards. So, uh and that's one anybody can watch.
SPEAKER_02Yes, and I I learned from you and from some of your resources that the new word fidgetal is this hybrid physical and digital. I'm not sure this portmanteau is going to catch on.
SPEAKER_00But yeah, yeah, uh, it's it's a terrible word, isn't it? But it's just it's a really interesting concept, this whole thing of how are we going to integrate these different ways of doing things. And and one of the things, again, having we'd we'd spoken with us the congregation, we knew where people were at in terms of taking risks. Uh, we knew who was going to need to shield. And so a lot of work has been done to make sure that those people still feel part of the church family, uh, even when they can't physically gather with us at the moment.
SPEAKER_02And you would advocate for for other churches around the country to do this because you know, I I know that um on my Facebook wall, when when you wrote a comment, other people were, well, it's all well for you in Cornwall, um, as though as though it never rains. It never rains in Cornwall, does it? That's never rains for it. That's why the grass is so brown. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00That's right. Yeah. No, I mean we use we have a series of gazebos that we put up beforehand so that people um families particularly find gazebos helpful, families with young children, um, because it gives the children a sort of sense of a back set of boundaries in which they can be and they're less likely to just charge off all over the place. Um, but it's also a shelter in the uh if it starts to rain. Uh everyone comes with umbrellas, uh, all the rest of it. We've had one major downpour um just as we were leading up to the sermon uh one Sunday. But other than that, so far God's been kind. And what did you do? You just put up the umbrellas and kept going. Um but it was fine and we carried on. Um but it it was only a sort of short, sharp downpour. Uh we have a system that says that if the weather forecast is really bad, we will do they just go back to Zoom. So um we call our vicar, um, he's normally known as Philippe de Greywater, he's often known now as the Reverend Michael Fish because most of the messages that come out early on in the in the week or later on in the week are about the weather forecast.
SPEAKER_02Okay, very good.
SPEAKER_00And yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02And what what would it take legislation-wise for you to think um it's it's worth meeting indoors?
SPEAKER_00Well, we don't have a building that we could socially distance in. We were already worried about um the number of visitors who would be coming in the summer months and whether or not we'd be able to fit them into our building without social distancing. Um, so for us, um, it wasn't a case of thinking, shall we meet indoors or outdoors? In some ways we were forced outdoors if we wanted to meet. Um what we will do as the months get uh a little colder, we're not exactly sure. Um that'll be another uh plan. But as for you know, um people whether everyone should be doing this, I don't think it's you know, I don't think there are any faster than you know rules about these things. Um certainly in both Wales and Scotland I know that the legislation is somewhat different, and so it would be very difficult uh for large groups to be meeting. But I think physical meeting of some kind and using our outdoor spaces in in different ways, and that's what the outside the box uh conversations were about, not just about moving a service outside because of COVID, but actually thinking about how do we intentionally integrate our church communities uh where we are. So that might look like being in a park, a local park. Um and that might not like be having a full service, but that just might be doing something as a church, which is noticeably as a church in COVID days and non-COVID days.
SPEAKER_02Brilliant. So for people who want to find out more about thinking outside the box and uh and and thinking creatively, uh, where can they go to find out more?
SPEAKER_00I think the best place at the moment is the GAFCONUK Facebook page. Um, or if you aren't a member, if you're not on Facebook, then um if you email me, I can send you any details and my contact details are on the GAFCON UK website.
SPEAKER_02And that is gaffconuk.org, is that right?
SPEAKER_00That's right, gafconuk.org.
SPEAKER_02Terrific. Susie Leave, thanks so much for joining us.
SPEAKER_00Love to speak to you, Kellen.
SPEAKER_02Cool. What did you what did you make of uh Anchor Anglican Church in FOI?
SPEAKER_05Uh yeah, well, I mean, obviously they're they they have thought outside the box, getting themselves down onto the the rugby pitch and stuff. And um yeah, I mean it it it it's it's positive. I think the thing that's really good actually um is they they've taken they're clearly taking steps as well to make sure they're in line with stuff. You know, they she talked about we we spoke to the police and we spoke to the the rugby club and whatnot. So everything they're doing, they've kind of cleared to make sure you know they're within the bounds of regulations, which I think is really good. Um and I think you know in this season that that works well. Um I think it's a good it's a good thing. Um I know I think she said a few times about it it you know when it rains, you know, you go around with some umbrellas and things. Um I so I I'm all up for this. I'm all up for what they're doing. I think it's really good. Um I wonder if they'll be so up for it in January when it's not raining but it's like minus two or something, you know, or how many of the congregation sit down at the beginning but don't get up again at the end, you know. Um I I understand the outside aspect there. Um I I think it may bite a little bit later, but uh Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I I I found it very refreshing. And and actually one thing I thought was that you know, because they just Instagram live um their service, um that takes all the pressure off making a nice production on a Sunday morning. Because I I know a lot a lot of ministers over the last five months have been spending a lot of their time on tech, you know. Um and actually this this could be a way of actually saving them time because you know the the um the services already produced, you know, it not it's not polished, it's not to a high, you know, sure standard, but yeah. Yeah. So should we have a look at uh Michael Lutz as well? Because I I interviewed um Michael as well um recently. He's had some interesting experiences um preaching to live audiences um out in the open air. And his church uh is also about to attempt um something very bold and very exciting. So uh let's uh listen into my interview with Michael Otz. We're thinking about Church Outside the Box, and I'm with Michael Otz, uh, who was starring in a very recent episode of the live cast. So he is uh well known to many of you. But um, do you want to introduce yourself a little bit, Michael?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so uh I'm Michael Otz. I live in Marlowe in Buckinghamshire. Um I work as an evangelist um and normally uh speaking at student missions in universities around the UK and Europe.
SPEAKER_02And very recently you had uh a wondrous experience, a heavenly experience of preaching to actual people in the flesh. Uh tell me what that was like.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it was it was great. Um so so the last time I preached to people that I could physically see standing in front or sitting in front of me was in March. Um but uh just uh a week ago, um I was speaking on uh a camping weekend that had been organized by Oak Hall. So you may have heard of Oak Hall, the Christian uh holiday company. They also have a manor in uh Oxford in Kent. And so they basically worked really hard to make kind of COVID compliant campsites. Uh they could cater for up to 600. We didn't have 600, but uh that was uh basically the capacity that they could run up to. Um it was great, people came. Um a lot of people came because it was literally the only Christian thing that they could go to this summer that wasn't online. And um, and then we had uh main meetings where we gathered um out on the garden stage, they'd marked out uh pods kind of two meters apart where each kind of family unit or camping unit could sit. And I I preached um through uh through some of the old testament prophets. Wow. And um it was great. Like I I think I was looking forward to it, but I think having spoken online for the last six months and then to actually see people, even though they were a bit more kind of spread out and sometimes huddled under umbrellas, like actually being able to see people whose facial expressions change in line with what you might be saying. Wow, like um was just brilliant. And so I loved it. I just found it so much more energizing, engaging. And I think having had conversations with people who were listening to the preaching, uh, people really appreciated it as well. Like there was loads of genuine appreciation, and just they found it so spiritually refreshing just to I think physically kind of gather in that way helps you really engage and focus and receive in a way that is harder to do as well when you just computer.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and people were performing worship from the front and and just being in that environment as well with with others um in the in a great assembly.
SPEAKER_01So it it was I mean, I think this is the thing. Often when we do stuff online, we feel like it has to be like top-notch quality for people to engage, and even then, like it's hard to get people engaging, but actually um it wasn't like hugely professional in one sense, it was it was just a simple worship group leading in some songs that people could listen to and reflect on. Um I think a few people might be on quietly. Um and underneath my breath. And um but I think yeah, just able to respond to that and then and then I spoke and and people could chat and and and interact with it afterwards.
SPEAKER_02So you in you enthused about this online, and um I I guess what you've been trying to do, you know, certainly in in my experience of you know, like listening to you and we've been messaging together and and um and seeing your output online is is you want to light a fire under people to get them excited for physical meeting. Why why? Why do you think physical is so much superior to the Zoom meetings, however good those Zoom meetings might be?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I think I mean I think it's an interesting one that um when we went into lockdown, a lot of people were saying basically um uh people aren't gonna want to meet anymore, they're gonna realise how much easier it is to meet online. Kind of, you know, that's the end of the physical gathering of the church. And I think what I've realized is that actually if lockdown has taught us something, maybe it's that physically gathering is so important. And it kind of shouldn't surprise us. I was thinking, I mean, theologically, um, as Christians we believe in the incarnation, we believe in a God who became flesh and dwelt among us. He didn't just send us a kind of a message or give us a zoom chat with heaven, but but he physically came to be with us. And so uh the incarnation should shape how we go about uh uh being church. And being physically present together isn't it shouldn't surprise us that that is infinitely better than gathering even in a kind of virtual way. So I I think theologically there's a kind of reason for that. And I think, you know, practically I think going to something where you are physically together enables you to engage so much better. So at the beginning of lockdown, I think I was chatting with Rebecca and we're saying, you know, it's so much easier going to church, we don't have to travel there, we don't have to travel home, it only takes like an hour, you know, that kind of thing. But then we realized actually the the physical act of going somewhere and then being there means that you engage in a way which is, I think personally, a lot deeper and a lot more helpful for me than just kind of flicking open the computer and often being quite distracted by other things around the house at the same time.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, no, completely. And you've mentioned the incarnation, Jesus, tabernacles with us. Um, you go to a church, Latimer Minster, uh, where they literally tabernacle, don't they? So you you you meet in a great tent um already normally under under normal conditions, uh, but at Latimer Minster, um, you're making some plans to to move outdoors. What what what are the plans?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so we're just really excited to think about what we can do. I think um there's so many limitations, obviously, to to meeting inside in terms of how many can meet, um having to be masked and so on, that I think for a lot of people makes it quite frustrating. And um we're blessed as a church to meet on a 70-acre fruit farm um just between Gerald's Cross and Beaconsfield. Um and so the plan is from the beginning of September to go right through the winter for the next six months um that we're gonna meet outdoors. Uh, we've got a kind of a wooded area, um, so we're gonna put up some sails in the trees to provide some covering. Um, if it rains, um we're going to build fires, and so we're calling the whole initiative forest fires. Um, so people can gather in small clusters around each fire. Uh basically put up a simple kind of stage um with a kind of portable PA system in the middle. And then the idea is that people can come and gather, we're gonna meet at midday, a fairly short, kind of interactive 45 minutes um gathering uh where we'll uh meet in small clusters to engage with the passage that we're gonna be looking at that day, um, then have a time where we can be led in worship, um, then there'll be about a 20-minute sermon and then back into our little clusters to be able to discuss and pray together. Um and then the idea is we'll probably bring picnic lunches and stuff and and then just share lunch together afterwards. So the idea is that it's really simple, um, but the beauty is of course being outside, we're just not under the same restrictions as we'd have to be inside, and it means that we can grow numerically um without the limitations of of the physical space that we're in. And I guess we've got 70 acres, but that's quite a long, long way out for you.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. But you know, it's it's it's surprising, you know, in different congregations. We've got a farmer in our congregation, so you know what what could we do? We've got we've got a beach down the road, what could we do? Um, I was just speaking to Susie Leaf. They've got a uh a rugby club just up the road. Why don't they, you know? So in one sense, with a bit of creativity, we we could we could all do something innovative like this. Um uh what have been some of the reactions as as you've kind of uh made these plans known um to other Christians in particular? Um what have people been saying?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I think I think I would say the big reaction for most people has just been that sounds great. Um let's see what we can do. And so I've been chatting with a few other church leaders, um, just as you say, thinking about what kind of outdoor spaces could you find um near you um so that you could do something similar. Um so I think generally it's been really, really positive. I think a couple of the more critical comments have been uh, I guess the the one that most people seem to come up with is yeah, but what about the British weather? It might rain. Um and I'm like, no, no, it will rain. It definitely will rain between now and next March. Um I think obviously in normal, normal life pre-COVID, you know, if you had a choice of doing an open air service in the rain or meeting inside in the dry, you would meet inside. But if the choice is meeting inside in a very limited number wearing masks and all the other restrictions versus meeting outside in the rain, putting up an umbrella and taking the wellies, I think the reality is actually in the current situation, most people are willing to rough it. And and actually, my experience last weekend, you know, I was preaching on the Saturday morning, the heavens opened, and people just put up their umbrellas.
SPEAKER_02That always happens when you preach, Michael. The heavens are always open to me when I'd love it if it happens in the colloquial sense. In the noaiic sense, not not in the Ezekiel one sense. Okay.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Um, so yeah, so I think I think that's one reaction I just think, yeah, yeah, yeah. Just take just take a coat, take umbrellas. Um, I think I think some people are still a little bit cautious. Um, so I've had a few people say, you know, isn't it a bit risky? You know, there's still risks to gathering together in that kind of way. And I think my response in that time is to say, well, like nothing is ever without risk in life. You know, but that doesn't, you know, if you want to only do things because there is zero risk attached to it, we just wouldn't do anything. Um but two things to bear in mind is number one, uh like what is the risk physically, and in the current situation, actually it's a lot less than many people often fear, you know, given the current infection rates, given the precautions and stuff that we're we'd be taking. Um so it isn't as big as we worry, but also kind of it's not the choice is not between do we take risks or do we not take risks. I think the choice is what kind of risks do we take. Um yes, physically gathering may incur certain risks, but not physically gathering has other risks attached. And I think my concern as Christians is sometimes we only see the physical risks of you know, what if we get COVID? But I say actually there's a whole load of other risks, emotional, mental, spiritual, that are at stake if we if we don't meet together and we don't give Pete Christians that opportunity to physically gather. And so to those who are risk-averse, I would just say actually, you know, um it's not a question of taking risks or not taking risks. It's just a question of what risks are we gonna take and uh what areas are we willing to risk doing.
SPEAKER_02So maybe yeah, yeah, that's that's really helpful. It's not do do you be risky or not? Which risks? Okay, so paint a picture for us. Um, you know, it's quite a drastic move to um take your services out of doors all throughout winter. You must see that there is quite a serious risk to the UK church right now. Can you put words to what that risk is and and what what the fear on that side of the equation looks like?
SPEAKER_01Um I think I think one of my well, there's there's several fears. I I think I fear that many people have just disengaged with church. I think we sometimes kid ourselves when we look at the Facebook views. Um and to give you an example of that, I was putting something on Facebook the other day brilliant, 250 people have uh have watched this video, and then I played the video back and I realized the audio hadn't worked, so actually they couldn't have heard anything. So basically um it was 250 people clicking on a video and then disengaging. So I think we can kid ourselves into thinking everyone's engaging, they're sitting there. I think a lot of people haven't, they have dropped out, and I think, well, I have found it hard to engage with church online, I'm sure I'm not the only one. Um, and so that's one one real fear. I think we fear my my the risk, I'd rather say, is um we risk giving the impression that basically like gathering together is is not that important. And I think actually like biblically it is, like we're commanded to not give up meeting together. Um and and so actually to not do everything within our capacity to make that possible gives the impression to Christians that actually it's a kind of negotiable that it's not really that important. And we want to say actually it is. Um also I just think evangelistically, um like I just worry, like uh there was this kind of time at the beginning of lockdown where everyone said, Oh great, everyone's kind of coming to church online. Uh but I also I I guess I've been thinking particularly about young people over the summer, uh, with a cancellation of so many youth camps. You know, so many young people I know who came to faith through summer camps. I'm guessing that most of those non-Christians who would have come to faith through summer camps won't necessarily have engaged with with an online camp in the same way, if at all. Um and I think one of my big concerns is for kind of those in the teenage kind of age brackets um who in every conversation I've had with people have have just said actually they've really struggled to engage with with church online. Um so providing something where they can physically gather, I think, is just so important.
SPEAKER_02And what an opportunity um to to put the positive to it. What what an opportunity to be a public witness um outside the four walls of a church and saying we're we're still here, we're singing in the rain. Um that that in itself is is yeah, yeah, quite a witness. Brilliant. Well, we wish you all the best with all of that, and uh we we might um uh we might catch up with you a little bit later on in the autumn and see how things are going at Latimer Minster. But uh Michael Otz, thanks so much for joining us.
SPEAKER_01We're all in hospital with pneumonia.
SPEAKER_02No COVID, just pneumonia. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_02God bless. Great. What did you make of uh Michael Otts singing in the rain?
SPEAKER_05Yeah, I mean it's certainly um certainly, you know, go hard or go home, isn't it, kind of uh mentality which I appreciate. So uh yeah, the the the idea of um you know being in the great outdoors with uh fires burning, um forest fires. Um that's a little bit insensitive as a name, but um but no, I I I I like the idea. Um yeah, I mean and and I think you know I think uh to be applauded for doing you know thinking outside the box and thinking, you know, well I think he's right in the the danger of not of not gathering. Absolutely. Um and I think actually the things he said near the end there about um just um people disengaging, I think that's really the thing that I'm concerned about, you know. So although you know, we we the and and so it that I think we've we're all kind of agreeing that the same kind of concern, we've all got the same, you know, concern at the heart of this, but we perhaps are just thinking in different directions of what we do about that. So obviously, you know, they're they're trying to combat that in at least in one sense by making sure people can gather in the in the kind of Sunday gathering, so to speak, um en masse. Um so yeah, I I think it you know it's a really positive thing. Um yeah, I mean, I still do have the question. I know he said, you know, the critics say about when it rains, um I still and uh you know, rain I can cope with. I'm still thinking about Betty who's 80 when it's minus two, you know. I got neighbours who won't leave the house after five o'clock because it's dark, you know, like in the winter.
SPEAKER_02So But would Betty would Betty come anyway? And yeah, and is is there a is there an opportunity to do an afternoon tea for Betty? Um you know and and I and I think with all this stuff, you know, that that horrible that horrible portmanteau that's um the the fidgetal, not yeah, the the combination of physical and digital, um, I think that'll be one one kind of hybridization we'll have to do. Um that we'll have we'll have to broadcast what we do for those who who can't show up. And and we'll have to get alongside those um who are um too sick to come, too old to come, um, too fearful to come. Um and I and I think what we what we don't want to do is is to say, yeah, church churches for the rough and ready types who, you know, they'll they they would climb Ben Nevis on a Saturday, so of course they'll you know do forest fires on a Sunday. Sure, yeah, yeah. So it's it's important to maintain that whole Isaiah 42, you know, a a smoldering wick he will not snuff out. A bruised weed reed, he will not break. A smoldering wick, he will not snuff out. What what what about the what about the fearful ones? What about the frail ones? Um, how do how do we also serve the them? Um, but you know, why not have both? Let's let's let's try for both. Yeah, absolutely. Well, we'd love to hear uh what you guys think uh at home. Um what is what is the hope for church in these uh strange times? Um as we've migr as we're migrating from Zoom, um, what does it look like where you are on Sundays? And uh what is your great hope? Um, because you know let's let's leave on a on a note of hope because even in um John 15, Jesus talks about, you know, I am the vine, my father is the vine dresser, and there is pruning that happens to the vine. Um and I think we are we are noticing pruning happening, and it and it's painful, it's always painful, but the pruning happens that there might be more fruit. Um, and we've we've always got to trust that, that God's purposes go through death and into resurrection, through Good Friday and into Easter Sunday. Um, yeah, what what have been your experiences? We'd love to hear from you of ways in which um through COVID-19, through the lockdown, um God has been bringing more fruitfulness. We'd love to hear uh stories of that, and uh we'll get back um in touch with you in in the next episode. But uh in the meantime, Paul, how can people catch up with us?
SPEAKER_05Yep, you can find us by looking for Speak Life UK on Facebook and Twitter and Instagram and YouTube. It's all the major kind of social media outlets, and then you can always visit the website speaklife.org.uk, um and find out more info there and contact us if you need to as well. Brilliant.
SPEAKER_02And on the next episode, might you be in in the flesh? Is that is that we'll get into it in flesh? Next Tuesday.
SPEAKER_05Yeah. So we'll we'll be together in seven seconds.
SPEAKER_02It'll be very anaemic, but uh no singing. It'll be no singing. I'm not coming then. Guys, thanks so much for joining us, and we'll see you again next time. Bye-bye. Take care, goodbye.