Today on the live cast, we're talking Kane, Abel, and the Culture Wars. Hello, welcome to the live cast. My name is Glenn Scrivener, and here from our Eastbourne studios, we're going live with the ever-wonderful Paul Feasy. Paul Feasy. There he is. P Fizzle is in the house and we are actually live. So how does it how does it feel? Are you nervous?
SPEAKER_06Yeah, a little bit. I don't know how long it's been since we were last live. We were discussing this earlier, like before you you arrived, and I think. Was it during the actual lockdown?
SPEAKER_02We did quite a lot of live during actual lockdown.
SPEAKER_06I presume we did some live ones then.
SPEAKER_02We did one back in September as well. But yeah, it's been it's yeah, we're a bit bit rusty.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, absolutely.
SPEAKER_02So I don't know who's more nervous about misspeaking. Are you more nervous about me misspeaking or more nervous about you misspeaking?
SPEAKER_06Oh, I'm always nervous of me misspeaking. Who knows what I might say?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, that that is the right answer. So we are talking today about uh Kane, Abel, and the culture wars uh because we're in part of a series called Reset, and uh we're just noticing that uh a lot of people are wanting to hit the reset button, having hopefully had the very worst of COVID behind us. Uh obviously there's uh all sorts of uh shenanigans to uh to navigate moving ahead, but uh a lot of people are wanting to figure out um what is real, what is true, and we want to hit reset by going back to the beginning and uh figuring out this ancient book of Genesis, our origin story. And uh part of the thing we're doing in Genesis is we're going back to the beginning backwards. So we start with Genesis 4, and then we'll do three, two, one, all the way back to in the beginning, God. Um but yeah, so today we're thinking about Cain and Abel. We've had a couple of uh episodes uh that have dropped a couple of interviews, uh, one of which was with uh Alistair Roberts, we'll think about him in a second, and uh another with Miroslav Wolf, who uh we saw on Friday. And um yeah, we're gonna be thinking about whether this very ancient story that people like Jordan Peterson go nuts over, they think it's you know the most incredible, compelling, explanatory story uh that you could possibly imagine. Uh, we're gonna think about whether it can cast some light onto our current culture wars. Uh but before before that, we uh we always want to dive down into the mailbag. So, Paul, you've you you took on the the task of diving down into YouTube comments.
SPEAKER_06Giving me YouTube comments, yeah.
SPEAKER_02And you you still survived.
SPEAKER_06Still here, yeah. Yeah, not retreated entirely into my mail.
SPEAKER_02There were some nice ones, weren't there?
SPEAKER_06Yeah, they were actually I was surprised there was it was very little abuse. It's when they hurl a load of abuse at you and then say yours in Christ.
SPEAKER_02Grace and peace.
SPEAKER_06Um so we have one comment. Um these are actually all on last week's live cast, um, but someone here had commented about one of the other videos we'd made, which was the If Bibles If Phones Were Bibles, if phones were bibles were Bibles, which was our little sketch, um you know, kind of 90-second sketch, um, illustrating what it'd be like if we replaced our phones with our Bible and what life might look like. And someone had just said, I shared the If Bibles Were Phones video with a lot of non-Christians. It's been a great conversation starter with them.
SPEAKER_03There you go.
SPEAKER_06Good to hear. I'd be interested to know if you're still listening in, yeah, what kind of conversations you had. Yeah. Nice to know. I mean, I had someone, I I shared it, and someone just said, Oh, it's really thought-provoking. But they never kind of went any further than that, kind of. You know, I kind of came back and said, Oh yeah, like it's fascinating when you know that this is the amount we use our phones and yada, yada, yada, and so on.
SPEAKER_02And right.
SPEAKER_06But I didn't hear any more from there. But it'd be interesting to know what conversations you did have and where it went.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. My my favorite moment from the whole thing was actually when our our cameraman, our media producer Max Patterson was actually the driver.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Um, with the with the immortal line, mate, we on your we on your Bible.
SPEAKER_06Which we could get on I think we should get that on a mug. Mate! You can go and get your merchandise.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, don't Bible and drive people. It's uh very dangerous.
SPEAKER_06Uh yep, so that was one of our comments, and then uh again on the live cast video last week. So last week we were talking about the Tom Holland interview. Um, and Tom Holland talked about surrendering to the story, and that's what we that's what that was the name of the live cast last week. So as he's done his research for Dominion, he's you know, you asked him, didn't you, where do you kind of stand on these things now? And he said, Well, I've kind of lost my faith in liberalism. In liberalism, yeah. Um and he kind of said, maybe slightly cryptically, but surrendering himself to the story. Yeah. Even if he might say, I'm not sure did the Exodus happen? That's he said, you know, that kind of thing.
SPEAKER_02Did Moses part the Red Sea? I don't know. But there's a truth to the story that I'm gonna surrender to.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, so that's kind of what he said. Um we were talking about that a little bit. And so we had a comment in last week saying, surrendering to the story presupposes there is something innate within mankind that can surrender, hence a cognitive pathway to God that one can come into alignment with volitionly. But as one is dead in their sins and trespasses, one can't surrender themselves. Do you seriously think Tom Holland's understanding and ruminating like Peterson's or any others has any impact in God's world for anyone? Come on, folks, wakey wakey. The whole basis of his supposition is dispel before you got out the gate. God chose that there will be his that will that you're sorry, it's Mr. Wood. God chose that those will be his before the foundation of the world. And as Christians, we're to stand wherever God has preordained and point to the cross as those who are given to his son will at some stage in God's timing believe upon the Lord Jesus Christ as their Saviour and Lord. This is already set in stone, it's not something an academic illuminates to anyone or changes the outcome of within society. People just like rubbing around the truth, as I'm sure it heightens book sales along the line. Peterson and Holland always remind me of the Pharisees in the temple, and I always picture Jesus walking towards them in anger and frustration and boomeranging their literature over walls. Okay. So I think he liked it.
SPEAKER_02Boomeranging their literature over walls.
SPEAKER_06I'm just gonna come back to that. If Bibles were boomerangs, yeah, I mean this one caught my caught my um caught my eye. Um because you know, I don't think any we would not deny, would we, that um of course God chooses, has chosen those who will believe before the creation of the world. Um does that mean therefore that the idea of surrendering to the story or the things that Holland or someone like Peterson are saying just make no difference, you know. So I think the point being made was look, you can't surrender to the story, you're dead in your sin. You don't have power to surrender yourself to this. Right. Of course not. None of us make the decision to become Christians where the Spirit opens our eyes, um, and you know, we're we're drawn to the Lord Jesus there, you know, no one comes to me except the one the Father draws, you know. Um But how does he draw them? That is the question, isn't it? So, you know, in answer to the question, do you seriously think Tom Holland's understanding and ruminating like Peterson's or any other has any impact in God's will for anyone? The answer is yes. Yeah, yeah, I do actually. I think that it's it's entirely possible that God may choose someone before creation, and that the means he may use to bring them, maybe they're sitting there thinking, you know what, the Bible's a load of rubbish, don't need to bother with that. Oh, I've just heard of this guy, Jordan Peterson. Oh, it's interesting. He's talking about the Bible as if it's something worth thinking about.
SPEAKER_03Right.
SPEAKER_06Tom Holland's saying all this stuff, that's challenging what I think. Maybe I'll look at this, maybe I'll pick up a Bible. Right. Maybe I'll look at it, you know, and maybe through that they find themselves believing and they go, I think I'm ready to surrender myself to the story. You know, now of course, yeah. None of that takes away from the fact that God called them before the creation of the world. Right. You know, right. Um I mean, obviously here he says, you know, God has told us to point to the cross um in order that those who will come will in their time come. Um I think in Tom Holland's book, I mean I I Peterson perhaps is not so cross-focused at all. But Holland seems very much centered around the idea that it's the crucifixion and what has come from that that has been this seismic shock to the world.
SPEAKER_02Right. Um and he wants to surrender himself to that story. So he's quite specific about the the story.
SPEAKER_06Um so I think it's very I think that kind of this this kind of comment, I mean you could easily you could easily say, couldn't you, well, if your attitude is it doesn't make a difference what people do in the world, people who have been called will come. Um you could almost write off evangelism. Yes. Now I mean admittedly it says, you know, you're supposed to point people to the cross, but you can just say, well, why bother though?
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_06You know, why point people to the cross? If if they're gonna come anyway, yeah, you know, you can take it, you can almost pull it out of your hands entirely.
SPEAKER_02It's it's like it's like kind of zeroing in on Romans 9 and not reading onto Romans 10. Right. You know, Romans 9 is the classic text for Calvinists to say, you know, God chooses. And then Romans 10 goes into, but how will they believe unless someone is sent to them? Like faith comes by hearing, and hearing via via the word of Christ. So, you know, the the idea is not that faith comes simply by an arbitrary zapping before the foundation of the worlds. The Apostle Paul, who's just written Romans 9, he still believes that we need preachers who preach the message, and faith comes by hearing the message, and it's the message of the crucified one.
SPEAKER_06And of course, even those who don't necessarily explicitly preach the message of the gospel, someone like a Peterson, I mean, we might see later on if we've got time, um, have become the gateway drug into Christianity for some people.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, totally. So they've described it. So I I I think there can be a real problem within reformed circles, so those who are kind of um descended from Calvin and his his way of thinking, there can be a real problem with evangelism when we think of evangelism as a a bit like a barcode reader gun. You know, so the preaching of the gospel is the barcode reader, and all you're doing as a preacher is you just go through the motions, you give a faithful Bible exposition, and what you're really doing is reading the listener. And if they've got the right barcode that's been fitted to them before the foundation of the world, then it goes blip, and if they don't, nothing happens, right? And so sometimes, sometimes the Bible is powerful, sometimes preaching is effective, and sometimes it's not. All the action happens before the foundation of the world. But I think the the picture the Bible gives to us is not that preaching is like the barcode reader gun. It's like preaching is like a magnum, okay? It's a gun that you actually make your mark with. I thought it meant the ice lot. It's it is also sweet and delicious. Um and taste and see that the magnum is good. But no, it's it's the gun kind of magnum that actually makes its mark. The gospel, Romans 1, verse 16, the gospel is the power of God for salvation. Which I don't know, if I translate that into Tom Holland's language, the story has a power to it, so powerful that it makes you surrender. This is this is actually brilliantly reformed language, actually. Surrender what can I do except surrender to this greater power that I've recognized in the story? So yeah, it it seems to me that uh Yeah, it seems to me you need to hold Romans 9 and Romans 10 together, um, the way the Apostle Paul does.
SPEAKER_06But um the other the other comment we had in that I thought is is really useful for just springboarding us into some thoughts on this. Uh, again about Tom Holland, someone said, uh, one can acknowledge the cultural importance of Christianity without accepting its mythic element. And then there's a little exchange and they came back in another comment. In any case, it's absurd to think that an idea about how to live or a set of values cannot be understood for their value and then be adopted by rational people without accepting the whole context of how they came about. How can it be possible that we'll be held hostage to myths? Thoughtful people can acknowledge the role a religion played in the coming about of certain ideas or patterns of behaviour which are of value, but can a rational person deny reason and sign up for a mythic explaining of the world? Hard to imagine how it can be done with integrity. Um without necessarily diving into the specifics there. I think the the interesting thing that comes out of that is maybe two things we have to think about is um, you know, we might be listening to the Tom Holland stuff maybe as Christians, and we're thinking, you know, it's it's all good stuff and we enjoyed it and it's uh you know that that's great. But in terms of you know, there will be people like maybe non-Christians, and we'll we might bring this to them and they just go, okay, yeah, but the world, you know, my Western views are built on Christianity. So what? Like who cares? What am I supposed to do with this? So for us evangelistically, what what difference does this make really?
SPEAKER_02It can make a lot of difference. Um one one difference that it makes is you know, here's this guy called Jesus. He grew up as a builder's laborer in some northern backwater of a long-dead empire. He was crucified, age 33, as a blasphemer, according to the Jews, as you know, as a rebel against Caesar, according to the Romans. And after three years of shooting his mouth off around Palestine, that should have been that for the Jesus movement. And yet, what does he predict? He predicts that his message will be like a mustard seed that grows into the greatest plants in the garden and even the birds of the, you know, perch in its branches. Or it's like yeast that works its way through dough. Or he he even says, My church will be such a conquering force, not even the gates of hell will prevail against it. You know? And you think, well, who are you? Like you're like Jesus is the definition of a loser, like absolutely crushed by Roman power. And yet 2,000 years later, we're we're saying, Oh, turns out it was true.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Turns out that like yeast working through a dough, like the mustard seed that grows into the biggest plant, the church has conquered in such a way that even its greatest enemies have ended up on the inside of the church. So, I mean, one thing it does is confirm the prophecies of Jesus, who um it and and you might think, well, okay, so Muhammad had a great influence as well, and so did the Buddha. Well, the but the Buddha had a body of teaching and found founded a school, and it's not hard to see why the Buddha's teaching became successful. Muhammad had an army behind him. It's not hard to see how his state became successful. It's really hard to figure out why. You know, failure in the eyes of the world. So I often say, you know, I say to people, Yeah, do you know Jesus' first miracle? It's turning water into wine. And some people have heard of it, some people haven't. I said, you know, water into wine, that's a miracle. But how do you go from crucifixion to world domination? That's a miracle, right? So that there's there's one avenue for discussion. And I think the other avenue that um really comes off the back of this question is is, you know, how can anyone, you know, want to deny reason and go for this mythic understanding of the world? Holland's argument is the other way around. Holland's argument is if you have any kind of Western values whatsoever, if you have any kind of sensibility that the poor and the marginalized should be protected, if you have any kind of sense of human equality or human rights, you already believe in the myth. Like the myth. You're cool on the myth. You've already taken a leap of faith. What you don't have is anything solid under your ground, uh under your feet. Yeah, sure. You've taken a leap of faith. If you believe in human equality, human rights, if you believe in protecting the poor, if you believe that a society should be judged by how it treats its minorities, if you believe in any of these kind of liberal shibboliths that pretty much most people do, unless you really are a far-right kind of Nazi or an eco-fascist, or I don't know, like like you've got to be really outside the acceptable bounds of Western society not to believe this stuff. Or your Yval Noah Harari, who's just like such a contrary, and he's like, yeah, human rights, forget him. But you're you're a very strange person in the West not to believe in these sorts of things. You already believe in the myths.
SPEAKER_06Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Holland is not telling you to take a leap of faith. You've taken the leap of faith. Yeah. How about having a foundation for it? And here's the foundation for it power has come and has earthed itself in history, and power has served the weak and the marginalized. And the reason why we think it is good for the powerful to serve the weak is because the powerful has served the weak. And actually the the metaphysical grounding for that is what makes sense of the mythic reality that has come to us down through down through history. So those are some of the things I'd say.
SPEAKER_06And maybe the other side of it then would be like obviously that has an evangelistic point, but just if you're a Christian who comes who sits and goes, okay, yeah, but and what does that mean for me?
SPEAKER_02I think one of the things that means is in our cultural analysis, what we're looking at when we see the culture wars is not it's not that there are the forces of light and righteousness and then all the baddies over there. Um it's every kind of dispute you see in Western society is an intramural dispute, like b between factions of the Christian house. And it's like we're hurling Bible verses at each other. We've just forgotten the verse references. And that is what, you know, that is what our secular society is. So I think it gives you an avenue for looking at the world. And and in your evangelism with people who have criticisms of Christianity, to be able to do the whole, you know, that's interesting that you find a problem with whatever Old Testament wars. You got a problem with Old Testament wars. Why have you got a problem with war? Caesar didn't.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Muhammad didn't. Genghis Khan didn't. Like, like no, no empire has ever had a problem with war. I think you've probably learnt that from this guy who says, put away your sword, because those who live by the sword will die by the sword. You you know, and so in your evangelism, you're equipped to say, uh, you are you're taking the side of the Sermon on the Mount against the side of Romans 13. That's interesting. We can have a conversation about that. But you're already standing on some Christian foundations, so it helps you with that as well, I hope.
SPEAKER_06Cool. Yeah, good stuff. Well, that's everything from the mailbag.
SPEAKER_02That's the mailbag, sewn up for another week. Keep commenting. Keep commenting down below, because we love going down and reading the comments. Mostly. Mostly.
unknownSometimes.
SPEAKER_02Um we've mentioned Jordan Peterson a couple of times. Um, how strange for us to have done so. But um this week uh he has come back for I think it's been his first sort of to camera video. He's he did a kind of interview with it. Yeah. Um, but this is him and his webcam. And uh we've got a little clip about um Jordan Peterson. He's he's kind of narrating the way in which he's um wrestled with this uh addiction to some medication that he's been on. He's been to all sorts of rehab centers all over the world to try and kick this, and he's been close to death. It's been a real trial. But on the far side of the trial, uh, this is how he signed off the video. Let's have a look.
SPEAKER_00Anyways, I'm not going to make this a long video. I wanted to tell you that I'm back in Toronto, that I'm in much better health, although it's still severely impaired, especially in the morning. Um, but I can work again and I really want to. Um and that to let you know that with God's grace and mercy, um I'll be able to start generating original material once again and pick up where I left off. Um thank you very much. And well, thank you very much. Is probably sufficient. Bye-bye.
SPEAKER_02So by God's grace and mercy, um, Peterson is going to continue his work, and his work is going to be looking at Exodus, and while he's waiting to get started with Exodus, he's going to look at Proverbs. So, um, you know, what does what does Jordan Peterson want to get back to? And I just I just find it interesting that having you know written a global bestseller, um, surely the thing he wants to get back to is just, you know, cranking out the self-help books. Um and to a degree he does want to, you know, bring out 12 more rules for life. And but the thing that seems to be occupying him and and interesting him is getting back to the Bible. Um, but then yeah, that final note of by God's grace and mercy, and he he even kind of gives a little look up as he as he says, by God's grace and mercy. It was I haven't heard him speak like that.
SPEAKER_06No.
SPEAKER_02Either the words or the tone of the words. And I don't know, I I wonder, and you know, I've I've been praying as he's been laid low for the last year. Um, I've been praying that he would look to God's grace and mercy um quite a bit because that's that that's not always the uh the tone you get if you just sort of read through twelve rules for life, is it?
SPEAKER_06No. No, I think we've always kind of said about uh Peterson in that we've we've always appreciated a lot of the things he said. But we've kind of s we felt that the one thing he he never seems to have commented on or really understood is the the need for grace. There's always a sense of just you know, sort you know, sort your ideas, you know, sort out your ideas, clean up your room bucko and it's all good, you know, pull yourself together. Yeah. Um in some ways very very Pelagian, maybe.
SPEAKER_03Right.
SPEAKER_06Um and so it's interesting because I mean his health's obviously not been good. I think his wife is very ill. Yes. Um and so it's obviously been a very difficult time. He looks, I mean, just looking at him, he looks like he's been through the ringer, you know. Yes. Um and he sounds more subdued in his manner anyway. Um and it may well be that you know, through through the going down into the depths, maybe maybe the Lord has met him in the depths somewhere in a way that he couldn't meet with him when he was at heights.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. When he was marching towards the top of the hill, bearing his own cross. He was once asked in an interview, because he he kind of uses that language of you gotta take up your cross, take up your suffering, own it, take responsibility, and march up the hill. And people sort of asked, you know, what's at the top of the hill? He's like, I don't know, just just do it, you know.
SPEAKER_06Yeah. And it'll be interesting to see where he I mean, obviously he says he wants to get dip dip into Exodus and dip into Proverbs and things. It'd be interesting to see what his next content is that comes out. I imagine he probably wants to those things probably won't emerge for a while, I'd have thought, in terms of if he's going to do work on them. But um whether he'll be doing more stuff to camera and bits and bobs or any speaking, I don't know. So it'd be interesting just to see what's what kind of things he starts talking about.
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_06Even before he hits that, just to see kind of how these last few months have have hit him really and what made him land.
SPEAKER_02Because I I worried for his followers, you know, having read 12 Rules for Life and and he was like, be more lobster, you know, take responsibility, clean up your room. And I I kind of thought that is a great message for people who are just ready to hear it. And they will, you know, they will get their lives together to some degree or another. But six months, eighteen months down the track, yeah. What's it what's it gonna be like in two years? You know, when you've been as lobster as you can be, and it's still not enough lobster, you know? What what then? And I've really worried for his followers, um, little knowing that it it's Peterson himself that would fall flat on his face.
SPEAKER_06Um I thought you were gonna say like there were those those who are ready who just needed that push, you know, to say, look, stop sitting around playing video games, you know, man in your 30s, get some responsibility and you know, do something. Um and who were that I thought you were gonna say there were those who aren't even at that who are just so far down. Yes, the idea of even getting your life together in some way is so inconceivable.
SPEAKER_03Right.
SPEAKER_06And maybe they you know there's nothing there for them really in that message. Yeah, um, and I think that's that's probably true as well. There is not a lot there for those people, you know, if you've not got get up and go and yeah, you know, you can't pull yourself together. Um, but it is like you say, that's really interesting for even for those who can. Yeah, where are you in 18 months, 24 months?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. Which is why the comparison with Russell Brand, I think, is really interesting. And uh, you know, within 12 months of one another, Brand brought out a book with 12 chapters, and Peterson brought out a book with 12 chapters, and and and you know, very much Peterson's 12 chapters are rungs of a ladder that will help you to ascend. Brand's 12 chapters, he's written an ode to the 12 steps. He's written an ode to Alcoholics Anonymous and all the other um rehab kind of programs that have been sper um spawned by um Alcoholics Anonymous. And so chapter one for Russell Brand in his great book, Recovery, it's eminently quotable, um, is you know looking at step number one for an alcoholic um who has come to realize that their life has become unmanageable and they have no power to change themselves. That is step one of the 12 steps. Yeah. It's extraordinarily Christian. I mean, it grew up out of a um, you know, it met in an Anglican church in New York, New York City, and um it was it was founded by um uh a pastor and his friend. And, you know, even though it talks about a higher power, um, the higher power within the 12 steps is very Jesus-y. Um and the shape of recovery for the 12 steps is very much you first recognize you're powerless. You first recognize that you are not all the lobster you can be, and you need help, and you need the higher power. Now, as a Christian, I wish they would name the higher power higher power because actually, you know, sometimes with my Tom Holland goggles on, I kind of look around and I think, yeah, that higher power, that's that's like that's Jesus. You're talking about Jesus, why don't you talk about Jesus? Um but I think the shape of Russell Brand's self-help is incredibly different to Peterson's self-help. And uh I think we've got a we've got a clip. Do we have a clip of Peterson and Brand? And uh they had a conversation uh about 18 months ago, and I thought it brought out very interestingly how um Peterson was on the rungs of the ladder trying to climb up, um, and Brand was more about receiving mercy in the pit. Let's have a look.
SPEAKER_05I know you're saying all this thing about sort of good the the one of the uh one of the essential themes, ideas about the Christ myth being, you know, sort of burn away all that cannot be reborn. But bloody hell, mate, in the actual language, all he bangs on about is kindness, kindness, love, love, kindness, kindness, love, love.
SPEAKER_01Not in revelation.
SPEAKER_05Not in revelation. He's a judge in revelation. What are you still you're still taking that as what books beyond the gospels you're still taking as the word of Christ?
SPEAKER_01Well, I'm taking them as part of the entire corpus of the story. I mean, the reason that Jung thought Revelation was appended to the Bible was because the Christ in the Gospels was aired too much, in a sense, on the side of mercy and not enough on the side of judgment. Because here's the technical, there's a technical reason, no. It's like we don't want a judgmental Jesus. Well, you don't have a choice. Because if you have an ideal, it's a judge. Like you have an ideal, you and there might be an ideal that you have of you. It's simultaneously your judge because you fall short of it.
SPEAKER_05I understand this because uh funny enough, I was talking to the fellow that taught me meditation yesterday, Bob Brough, so he's a student of the Maharishi, you know that he said that when Maharishi was asked what is the one principle? The one principle, he didn't say kindness or compassion or anything like that. He said discernment. And discernment, you know, which path are we gonna follow? Where is the attention going?
SPEAKER_01But it's judgment. That's why in Revelation Christ divides the damned from the saved, and most are damned. It's discernment. And and what that means in some sense is that there's a thousand, there's a hundred thousand ways to do things wrong and only one way to do them right, or maybe only five ways of doing them right. But you know that in your own life is that the the the there's an infinite number of snares that you can tangle yourself up in. And to find that pathway where everything is balanced, that's very that requires continual discernment and attention. And so you you can't have an ideal without it being a judge, and you can't you can't live properly without discernment. But that doesn't mean compassion and compassion isn't relevant.
SPEAKER_06So I guess in that, um what you see is that brand and uh Peterson just kind of on opposite ends of the spectrum, aren't they? Really? So brand is very much Mr. Compassion and sorry, compassion is the wrong word, isn't it? Compassion is right for brand. Not to say that Peterson is not compassionate, but he's very much about the rules and the law and that side of things. Um and it's interesting, isn't it, where Brand says, you know, you don't want to judge you Jesus. Peterson quite rightly points out, I think, that well you basically you've got one, you know, like because if you have a standard that says, you know, do all these really nice, lovely things, you are then judged by that standard, you know, even if it's your own standard or if it's someone else's standard, yeah. There there is a judgment there being drawn on whether you meet that criteria or or you fall short of it. Yeah. So I mean I think you know it's it's fascinating to hear them talking about those things.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_06And of course, yeah, Peterson draws out, you know, he talks about revelation, doesn't he? I mean, well I i in a sense I'm frustrated that he doesn't say say, even in the gospels, Jesus is incredibly about judgment, isn't he? Right. More than they say Jesus talks about hell more than anyone else, isn't it? Hell and judgment more than anywhere else in the Bible, basically. Yeah. So I it's one of those kind of I think classic misreadings, isn't it, of the gospel. Very selective to just say Jesus says lots of nice, yeah, lovey dovey things.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_06Even the but even when he does, it sets a judgment, doesn't it? Even the lovey dovey stuff sets a bar. Right. Right.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. He even tells a story about a good Samaritan and then says go do likewise.
SPEAKER_06Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Put it on me. Yeah, yeah. But it's a lovely it's a lovely story. And I think the Good Samaritan, you you're meant to first of all put yourself in the sandals of the guy left for dead, and then the beautiful stranger, you know, saves you, and and through the oil and the wine, which is the spirit and the blood, and all that kind of stuff. I I think the Good Samaritan is Jesus. Um, but you're you're first meant to be saved by the beautiful stranger, and then you're meant to go and do likewise. So there there is gospel and there's law, and there's law and there's gospel. And yeah, I think Brandon Peterson have sort of Brand's gone with you know grace and Peterson's gone with law. Um I think Christianity says um, okay, there is a law above you, and maybe maybe Brand doesn't um focus on this because through addiction he's already come to see that he can't do it. You know, once you've fallen flat on your face in addiction, you don't need the law to tell you that you're a total failure. You kind of you kind of know it. So Brand does have an idea of what the law does, and it tells you you're not enough and you're powerless. Um, but he you know majors on the grace. And Peterson, he talks a lot about law, law, law, law, law. But he's also talks quite a lot about um how there's a divine spark within people and this idea of being in the image of God and that kind of you know, the dignity that we have. Um so he's he's got kind of a sense of you know, but he's he's very quiet on the grace and heavy on the law. The reverse for Russell Brand. But I'm I'm just fascinated to see what will happen with Peterson now that he's fallen into a pit. Because I I don't think his his 12 rules are gonna get him out of that.
SPEAKER_06No.
SPEAKER_02But by God's grace and mercy, he is where he is.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, absolutely. So interesting. Exciting.
SPEAKER_02Interesting. Getting some great comments on the live chat. Thanks so much, guys. Roger Marshall says, uh, I don't understand Holland's conclusion. Does he think that myth, the story which he likes, is not compatible with history, which as a historian he should like? Why not both? Why not have both myth and history? Uh and I I think we will see Tom Holland owning more and more the historical nature of the gospels. I think he kind of um when I when I asked him about the truth of the story, he sort of said, I don't I don't know whether the parting of the Red Sea really happens. Which, as we noted last week, he knows that's not the center of the Christian story. Sure.
SPEAKER_06You know, but he's like core is the crucifixion, as he says, to something like that.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. So I think I I think he knows where the molten hot core of Christianity lies, and I I uh yeah, I don't think he'll run away from the historicity of it forever. I don't think you can. Um because I think I think I think it needs to be true at every level. Paul Paul Vanderclay, who will be on reset later on in the series, um, he says, if the resurrection is true, it is true at every level of analysis. If the greatest truth is this Christ story, then that story is going to be true at every level of analysis, not just the poetic, not just the mythological, not just the moral, but the metaphysical. Um and I I and I think that's actually a a good way of engaging someone outside the faith who's wondering, you know, can I believe this? Is pointing out the ways in which they're already living out the story. But do you think it's just a story? Don't you think the story weaves itself into, you know, every area of life, even the historical? I think I think that's the way, that's the way it's gonna be.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Um so um, yeah, as Christoph Keating says, um, Paul Van der Clay has said, Jor Jordan Peterson's anthropology is Augustinian, but his soteriology is Pelagian. Um what does that mean?
SPEAKER_06So well we talked about Pelagius earlier, didn't we? We mentioned Pelagius, so I feel like vindicated, like I said something intelligent. Totally. And now I'll undo all that. Uh well I guess so um so I guess we're talking about Pelagius, this idea that you can, you know, we can be perfect if you know we can make ourselves morally virtuous. Um and Tom picks up on that as well, doesn't he? Tom Holland. Because he talked about this in the video. He did um about stripping away original sin. Um so anthropology, yeah. So what do we think, like like Augustine, what do we think about the human nature? Do we think actually we're we're broken and sinful and therefore there's nothing, you know, in a sense, like we talked about from that comment, we're dead in our trespasses, dead in our sin, and we can do nothing about it. We you know, dead people, you know, uh it's always like that's that illustration people sometimes use, don't they? About, you know, um you're on there's you're in the sea drowning, and the boat comes and throws you the life ring, and that's like Jesus throwing you the life ring. And I've always kind of said, you know, um, you know, I get why people use that, but it's it the that's not at all the way the Bible talks about where we are in sin. It's more like we're floating face down dead in the water, right? You know, and our body has gone cold and rigor mortis is set in, and yet somehow we're dragged out of the water and someone else brings us to life. There's nothing in us that has done that. Whereas, you know, a kind of Pelagian view is much more hey, you know, you can You need swimming lessons. Yeah, yeah. Exactly.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_06So um yeah, I think I think that's yeah, that's probably that's probably fair.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so Peterson's quite got quite a negative anthropology. Um yeah, he's he's quite rightly, eh? Quite rightly, yeah, yeah. So I think he's learnt from Solzja Nitson and people like that that you know the the evil of the gulags and the evil of the concentration camp is within me as well. But then kind of the solution is within me as well. Yeah. Which is the Pelagian part of his soteriology. Soteriology uh soteriology, a name for salvation, uh doctrine of salvation. So it's it's one to keep our eye on because I think addic if anything's going to teach us an Augustinian view of everything, it's addiction. Because basically, Augustine's view of sin is basically it's addiction. It's it's what you love that ends up enslaving you. You go after you go after things that are good in their own way, but you love them too much, and then you end up serving them, and you're addicted to them. Um, and what you need is a greater love to win you away from the lesser love. God is the greater love. That's Augustine's whole thing. Um, and I think he speaks into the heart of the addict in a very profound way, um, because that is the experience of addiction. I've loved this lesser thing, and it's gotten hold of me. And I'm not bigger, I'm powerless to defeat this thing. Something else needs to captivate me. Um, and it's Jesus Christ. Um, but let's see if Peterson finds that.
SPEAKER_06Um I mean Christoph Kietinger said, you know, Peterson says humans are fallen and have deep evil in them, but the way to be saved is to sort yourself out. And then he says, but if you're fallen, how do you sort yourself out? And I think that's absolutely right, isn't it? And I think you know, his message has been incredibly uh powerful in this generation, and I think because there's been you know, or at least to my mind, there's been particularly amongst young men, there's this extended adolescence, you know, where people aren't really growing up or taking responsibility. And to have someone kind of come and say, you know what, you you could you could do it. I can see why that's taken hold, but like you said, where does that leave you 24 months down the you know down the road when suddenly you go, Well, I've tried to get my stuff together, and you know what, some of that's okay, and that's worked a little bit, but actually there's still quite a lot of mess here that I don't really know what to do with. Right. Um and I think that's gonna be really interesting to see where that leads. And so I mean I am excited to see what happens with with um Peterson, and I hope, I hope, you know, he's I hope he's sitting on something that he hasn't brought in out to us yet.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_06We'll see.
SPEAKER_02Maybe, maybe, maybe he is. Well, one story he really loves is uh Cain and Abel. Um he says that's one of the most profound stories that's ever been told, this this ancient uh story that comes in Genesis chapter four. And uh we've done a couple of reset interviews recently, all about Cain and Abel. We did one with Alistair Roberts, and then last Friday we uh showed one with uh Miroslav Wolf, the professor of systematic theology at Yale. And uh let me let me just read the story, and um and I think we'll see why it resonates so much with a contemporary audience. Uh Adam made love to his wife Eve, and she became pregnant and gave birth to Cain. She said, With the help of the Lord, I have brought forth a man, or perhaps even more literally, I have brought forth the Lord man. Uh later she gave birth to his brother Abel. Now Abel kept flocks, and Cain worked the soil. In the course of time, Cain brought some of the fruits of the soil as an offering to the Lord, but Abel also brought an offering fat portions from some of the firstborn of his flock. The Lord looked with favour on Abel and his offering, but on Cain and his offering he did not look with favour. So Cain was very angry and his face was downcast. Then the Lord said to Cain, Why are you angry? Why is your face downcast? If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? Yeah, see, that's why Peterson likes it. But if you do not do what is right, here's a much more Augustinian view, though. Sin is crouching at your door. It desires to have you, but you must master it. Now Cain said to his brother Abel, Let us go out to the field. While they were in the field, Cain attacked his brother Abel and killed him. Then the Lord said to Cain, Where is your brother Abel? I don't know, yeah, he replied, Am I my brother's keeper? The Lord said, What have you done? Listen, your brother's blood cries out to me from the ground. Now you are under a curse and driven from the ground, which opened its mouth to receive your brother's blood from your hand. When you work the ground, it will no longer yield its crops for you. You will be a restless wanderer on the earth. Cain said to the Lord, My punishment is more than I can bear. Today you are driving me from the land, and I will be hidden from your presence. I'll be a restless wanderer on the earth, and whoever finds me will kill me. But the Lord said to him, Not so. Anyone who kills Cain will suffer vengeance seven times over. Then the Lord put a mark on Cain so that no one who found him would kill him. So Cain went out from the Lord's presence and lived in the land of Nod, East of Eden. So uh what do you what do you take from this story, Paul? Yeah. What are the riches?
SPEAKER_06Well, I mean, it's it's one of those stories that it like when you read it, it just feels a bit strange, doesn't it, by itself? You kind of it's hard to know what to make of it. Um and I think that's why particularly the conversation you had with Alistair Roberts, I think was just so enlightening. Um and if you've not seen that interview, I really recommend you and watch it. Um I think you know it's as I watched it, I thought I need some I need more Alistair Roberts in my life, basically. I need more of his stuff because it's just excellent. Um you know, you you you read the things about, you know, well, obviously, you know, Cain brings these kind of the crops and Abel brings the m the kind of the firstborn stuff. And we kind of already know in our head from our Bible knowledge, we're kind of we we know the significance of kind of firstborns and things like that and things, but it's still you kind of go, well, what's going on here? And I really thought what was helpful at Alistair Roberts is he talks about almost you work the story backwards. Um so why is the gift a problem? Um well you see what happens when the gift is rejected, which tells you something about the heart of the gift, you know, the the what was going on in the heart of Cain when he brought that gift.
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_06Um which I thought was really interesting.
SPEAKER_02That's such a good point. Yeah.
SPEAKER_06Because as you read through, so if you were just reading chronological, you know, as you tend to do, you read the story chronologically, yeah. If you were to just stop at that stage and go, what's going on there? I think it would be a struggle to know straight off what's going on. So I think he he really helpedfully chew that out.
SPEAKER_02Um there are some clues about why would Abel's offering be accepted and Cain's not. I mean, one clue is the parallel with Genesis 3. So in Genesis 3, you've got the fall that's kind of a vertical fall, a fall from God. And in Genesis 4, you've kind of got the horizontal fall, the fall from one another. Uh, and there's all sorts of um parallels between Genesis 3 and Genesis 4. But one thing that happens in Genesis 3 is when they are naked, they atone for one another, they cover one another. It's the same word in Hebrew, they atone for themselves, they cover themselves with vegetation. Yeah, and the Lord obviously does not think that their vegetation is a good covering, he makes them skins. So in the next generation, we kind of see this. You know, Abel is going for the blood sacrifice.
SPEAKER_06How do you appear before the Lord?
SPEAKER_02Right. How do you cover yourself? Cover yourself with blood sacrifices or with the blood sacrifice. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, and like that came, I thought that was really interesting as well. I thought it was just really good observation. Um and you know, I think you ask as well in in the interview, you know, someone will say you you compare Genesis three in the fall and what Adam did to kind of what Cain did, and it just seems a bit of a mismatch, really, about the consequences because Cain obviously kills his brother, and he kind of just you know, he he he just has to go off and and no one's gonna kill him, he's gonna be okay. You know Cain killed a guy.
SPEAKER_02And command reference, yeah. Exactly. Yeah, yeah. Um stabbed in my heart with a trident.
SPEAKER_06Whereas, you know, Adam and Eve just ate some fruit. Right. And I thought what Alistair helpfully pointed out um or brought out was this idea of that initial disobedience being like a uh drop of ink landing on on that on that paper that absorbs and begins to spread out. And what we're seeing in those chapters is that spread of sin, how it increases. So, you know, perhaps we're not supposed to look at the you know the sin of taking the fruit as the most despicable thing, you know, in the sense of is this the greatest moral evil ever that's occurred? Probably not. It's obviously sinful because they're disobeying God, but we're seeing how that therefore leads to this sin, and then we see that start to spread out through the chapters after as well, which I thought was really good.
SPEAKER_02Um yes, Peter Rossi's just said, All sin is deadly, um, which is which is true. And I guess the way the Bible shows that though, is that it begins in seed form. And then it it sort of grows from there. You know, it kind of reminds me of in in um James chapter four, um, where it talks about sin when it is full grown leads to death. Um where does it say that? Um, I'm not gonna find it. Where is it? You know, it's in the Bible somewhere.
SPEAKER_06Somewhere. Hey, that was a good enough referencing for the right of Hebrews, you know. Well, exactly. Somewhere it's written.
SPEAKER_02Exactly. Exactly. But yeah, it's it's it's that idea that, you know, in in the Bible sin does start small, which is not to say that it is not wicked, that's that first sin. Or less deadly. Or less deadly. You know, we we were talking earlier about some David when the other kings went off to war. He just took a stroll on his palace rooftop. And then he saw a girl, and then he commanded her to come. And and it snowballed, and then the sin of David and Bathsheba, like, just rolls on down through the centuries in Israel. Um, and you might think, you know, his decision not to go out to war with his generals, a little decision, yeah, it was, but it's snowballed and it's snowballed, and you know, this is the this is the nature of sin. Christoph says it's in the 67th book of the Bible, the concordance. Yeah, that's that's true.
SPEAKER_06I also thought one of the things that um Alistair brought out, which was just really good, was um you know, he talked about Adam, you know, uh Adam and Eve, or Adam kind of as representative, you know, they take the fruit from the tree. Um and of course this leads into sin, and then we we get into this next chapter and we see how that sin spreads, and you know, Abel is dead, his blood cries out for vengeance from the ground, and yet we have you know Jesus being the one who places himself onto the tree, you know, in contrast to being to you know them taking the fruit from the tree, and his blood, um you know, far from being um crying out for vengeance, right? It's the very thing that replicates judgment and removes guilt and shame and yeah, you know, and I thought it's just such a wonderful um just a wonderful way in which he showed how these Old Testament stories, which can sometimes seem a little bit obscure by themselves, are pointing us to forward to Jesus.
SPEAKER_02Yes, I've I discovered the verse. It wasn't James 4, it was James 1, right? When tempted, no one should say God is tempting me, for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone. But each person is tempted when they are dragged away by their own evil desire and enticed. Then after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin, and sin when it is full full grown gives birth to death. So, yeah, there is that that sense of it growing. But not only does sin grow from Genesis 3 and 4, but the the redemptive stream kind of grows from from Genesis 3 and 4. And like it's it's fascinating to draw all the strands that uh appear from Genesis 4 to the point where you get to Jesus and he is his brother's keeper, and he is the firstborn who does take care of his uh brothers, you know, rather than kill his brothers. Um he is the offering. And I just I I find it fascinating that in in Genesis 4, um Abel is the younger, and yet he offers the firstborn. Um, whereas the firstborn rests on his firstborn-ness and he is rejected. Um so it is actually about trust in the true firstborn who ends up being sacrificed to be his brother's keeper, and his blood cries out for for mercy.
SPEAKER_06Doesn't Alistair say, does he reference Philippians in the talk? Does he say that you know Jesus is the one who doesn't cling to empties himself? Yeah, yeah, all that. And again, just really brilliant parallels drawing out, you know, him drawing those out there.
SPEAKER_02And with Miroslav Wolf, which was the uh interview you can check out from this Friday, and he um we we we talk about Cain and Abel and the prodigal son, because doesn't Jesus tell a story where there are two sons?
SPEAKER_03Yep.
SPEAKER_02And actually the two sons are quite like Cain and Abel, you know, there's a there's a more self-righteous one who burns with anger, and then there is the younger brother who ends up being embraced by the father, and the older brother burns all the more in righteous indignation and murderous anger. Um, and kind of what you see with Cain and Abel is Cain and Abel is basically the prodigal son story without a father. Like imagine imagine taking the father away from Luke chapter 15. What would happen? You get the two brothers fighting each other, you get war, you get conflict, you know. And then what do we see when we look at the world? What is modern politics? Modern politics is basically the parable of the prodigal son with no father, you know? And there's reds and there's blues and there's left and there's right, and there's older brother and there's younger brother. Um and both of them need the grace of the father, um, but instead they just fight each other. Um, so the culture wars, I think, are very much um um examined and explored and and and shone light on by this story, I think. Because what you have, especially with Kane, is this sense of getting an identity in what I produce, in what I do, in who I am. And then the other guy becomes kind of a uh a threat to me and competition for me, and suddenly there's conflicts because you know I I want to be noticed for who I am, and this guy gets in the way and and you get war. And uh Miroslav Wolf was very eye-opening, really, in talking about how um from the former Yugoslavia where he grew up, he saw armed hot military conflicts. Um, he studies Rwanda in his book, Um Um Exclusion and Embrace. But he says it's happening today. And and I was I was really reticent when I was talking to Miroslav Wolf. I was kind of like, you know, we don't want to call modern culture wars like what you experienced in the form of Yugoslavia. Yeah. But he he was like, no, it kind of is. Which is scary, right? Yeah, absolutely. It's kind of like a hot war, what we're going through at the moment.
SPEAKER_06Well, easy and and you yeah, can drift into something.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, something warmer and warmer and warmer. And you know, and every single US election is the most important in our time. And you know Is that happening soon? Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it is that sense of the ratchet being turned up and up and up, and you know, 2016 was the most important election ever. Oh no, no. Sorry, forget that. 2020, no 2024. There won't be a 2024 if you don't vote the right way in 2020. And just gets ratcheted up and up and up. Yeah. Yeah. Human has just said, yeah, it's the battle of left and right brain hemispheres. Which that is that is interesting. That's that's kind of that that would be a kind of Petersonian take on the older and younger brother, really. That's I forget which which is the Human, you'll have to tell me, which is the the left, a left brain person is more mathsy. Tell yourself my and a right brain person is more artsy, maybe? Yeah, or the other way around. Or the other way around. But yeah, isn't it isn't it interesting that even even kind of brain chemistry kind of bears out these types, these great types. But um wouldn't it be um wouldn't it be tragic if it was just war between left and right, between brain hemispheres, between the artsys and the you know, the mods and the rockers and you know all the rest of it. Actually, there is the grace of Jesus who comes to offer you embrace and a place at the feast, not on the basis of what you offer, but on the basis of what he has offered. And you can come home as a friend. That ought to do us, I reckon. Um thank you guys. You've uh you're doing you're doing very well, very well in the top chat. Um sorry we haven't gotten to all your uh comments. Um but uh good to see people watching it actually, and it's been good to be live again, actually.
SPEAKER_06It has been, hasn't it? It's good to good to see people contributing, and hopefully we'll be you know, the more we do this, the more we'll be able to chat backwards and forwards a little bit about what people are saying.
SPEAKER_02So absolutely. So, guys, do uh stay tuned. This Friday, our reset interview is with Father John Baer, who is the professor of humanities at uh Aberdeen University, and he's an Orthodox priest, and uh he really reads um Genesis Um with real profundity, um, real depth, real clarity, and in particular, brace yourself, because we're gonna talk about our mortality. We're gonna talk about facing up to death, which uh having come through, um hopefully coming through the worst of COVID, uh, we've all been given a little bit of a schooling in our own mortality, but we really need to face this issue uh because I think most of us in the West today think of death as kind of a technical challenge that I'm sure Google will solve in our lifetime. There's probably an app for that, but no, actually, and we need to face up to our mortality, and uh Jumbear gives us some great tools to do that, so stay tuned for that. And uh how else can people uh keep in touch, Paul?
SPEAKER_06Uh yeah, well, um you can go follow us on social media. So Facebook, uh Speak Life UK, same on Twitter and Instagram, so all those kind of major places, obviously subscribe on YouTube, um, or you can go to speaklife.org.uk forward slash sign up, where you can join our email mailing list where we'll you know kind of send you an email uh pretty much weekly, which will just kind of round up all the things that have been going on, um, any kind of info from us and all our resources that have come out in those weeks.
SPEAKER_02Excellent, and we'll turn this into a podcast which you can get on your favorite podcatcher uh wherever you get them. But guys, thank you so much for joining us and see you again next week.
SPEAKER_06All the best.
SPEAKER_02Take care.