Livecast. Welcome to the show. Boom boom boom live cast. Livecast. Welcome to the live cast. I hope that has been enough preamble. We get all the annoying preamble bands out of the way, first of all. Just while I sing to you. And joining me, I'm I'm Glenn Scrivener, if we haven't met before. And uh joining me in Crowborough, it is the wonderful easy.
SPEAKER_01Still here.
SPEAKER_05Still here. Even though, yeah, Lockdown 2. Um, it's the I'm finding it to be the dialect the diet cola of lockdown, you know.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah. It doesn't really feel like a lot's changed, if I'm honest, going into second lockdown. You know, the kids are just doing everything on Zoom. That's it again. The kids are still in school, which is a blessing. Um, but yeah, apart from that, it doesn't feel it's not as exciting as the first one. It's a letdown as, you know, the sequels as sequels go.
SPEAKER_05It is, it's just one calorie, not locked down enough. Um Brandon John Kameny um has some kind of emoji. Uh hello. It's it it seems to me. Let me take a closer look at this. What are you doing? Is that a root sign? Is that a gingerbread?
SPEAKER_01I did wonder whether it was a jelly baby giving us the finger, but I think it's a thumbs up.
SPEAKER_05It kind of looks like a jelly baby.
SPEAKER_01Can we see that on the screen? Like, can we get that on here? Like, does that no?
SPEAKER_05No, we can't we can't do that. Because I am by myself. I'm all by myself here in the Eastbourne studio. And um, yeah, this this is one of the things that lockdown has meant. And so we're we're a little bit undercooked on the uh technological side of things. But we'll we'll figure it all out. Oh yeah, Paul, Paul, go on. You you need to speak as you put this up so that the camera will be on you. What am I putting up? The emoji.
SPEAKER_01Oh, sorry. I thought I thought we'd done that. Like, oh, I thought we'd already done that bit. Okay, here it is. I can't quite it's not you're not gonna get a good enough picture to see what's going on there.
SPEAKER_05Brandon has just commented and he's saying it's a first pump, and then he corrected it to fist pump.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, first pump.
SPEAKER_05Hey. Thank you, Brandon. Uh, lovely to have your company. Uh now today we are talking about um the power of story in the grip of suffering. Uh, because uh we've been talking about suffering a little bit in our reset series. If you guys uh haven't been following, do subscribe to us and like our channel and um and click the bell, and you will get these interviews in which we are going back to the beginning, back to Genesis to figure out the origin story that has built our world. And uh we're going backwards from Cain and Abel in Genesis 4, back through Genesis 3, Genesis 2, Genesis 1, all the way back to in the beginning, God. And uh on the weekend, we had uh Wendy Allsup on the channel. And uh she is someone who really has struggled with um a whole bunch of different uh suffering. We've uh entitled her interview A Long Hard Road, because she's spoken about the long, hard road of suffering. But even as we talk about a long, hard road, we are talking in storied terms. You know, we've she is using an analogy, and it's a deeply scriptural analogy. It's it's the you know, walking through the valley of the shadow of death. It's a long, hard road. But built into that kind of concept is that we are heading somewhere and there is a destination, even if the journey is long and hard. And what we're gonna talk about today is the way in which we can't escape telling stories of our suffering. And the way to get through suffering is to tell uh better stories, um, the stories that the scriptures give to us. But before we dive down into that kind of stuff, we we often uh check out the mailbag. Is there is there anything in the mailbag, Paul, to have a look at?
SPEAKER_01Well, you know, in all the confusion of trying to get this sorted, I haven't had a chance to look at the mailbag. But let me tell you, the comments we were getting, um we were getting all the comments, the best comments. We've not no no one's had better comments than us. Like, yeah, beautiful comments.
SPEAKER_05Beautiful comments. We won the comments by a lot. By a lot.
SPEAKER_01Oh yeah, no idea what you're referencing there. No idea.
SPEAKER_05Um, yeah, so uh yeah, we're not we're not gonna get into that, are we? Not today.
SPEAKER_01No, no. We're gonna let the dust settle on that one at least.
SPEAKER_05So it's not done. It's not done yet, people. You know, after after 2000, it was 34 days, I think, before election day and the and the time when Al Gore conceded to George W. Bush, I think 34 days.
SPEAKER_01So Yeah, I was uh I think I think this could run a bit longer, I have a feeling.
SPEAKER_05If 2020 is anything to go by, and if if the fact that I I read something that like both sides have about 600 lawyers like primed and ready to go to fight these battleground states in the courts, um yeah, yeah. So like on the one hand, we were thinking, should we be should we be timely, Paul, and talk about this this urgent issue of the elections?
SPEAKER_01And like no, we thought no no no no run for cover.
SPEAKER_05Absolutely. So in so instead, we we we thought that we'd talk about the long, hard road of suffering instead.
SPEAKER_01It was better to talk about the question of suffering.
SPEAKER_05That was much easier to cope with than the US election long hard road, which is itself a long, hard road. Um, but we're talking about not only the long hard road of suffering, we are also um talking about story and the ability of story to see us through the long, hard road of suffering. And um, one of the things that tipped us onto this um subject of story was interviewing Tom Holland a few weeks ago on Reset, and he had a fascinating way of describing um the um the coming to faith or whatever, whatever faith journey Tom Holland is on, he's basically saying, Look, I have given up on the anemic stories of liberal Western values, and I'm going back to um the original roots of those stories, the original roots of those values, which are the Christian stories. And he talks about surrendering to uh the story. So uh what I thought I'd do is uh play a little clip of uh Tom Holland talking about surrendering to the story.
SPEAKER_02Um, and let's see if this is going to work. Zoom audio device. You know what?
SPEAKER_05It sounds like none of our clips are gonna work because we've just transferred it's just one of those days today, isn't it? We've just transferred to a new computer and now it's saying you'd need to have installed the zoom drivers in order for that audio to work. Oh so uh who does a better Tom Holland impression, Paul? You or me?
SPEAKER_01I was gonna say, yeah, we're gonna have to go down that road, aren't we? Like, hang on, hang on. I've got the V I've got a clip. I could do it. Okay. Well I might be. I just I'll make you co-host. I mean, it's not impossible that this could work. But do you have the clips? I didn't think. Well, I've only got I've got the I've got a bit of a Tom Holland clip.
SPEAKER_05Do you? Yeah. That would be yeah, that'd be quite cool. That'd be quite cool. I I'd have to make you into a host.
SPEAKER_01I mean, it's it's a little it's a shorter version of what he said, maybe, but um Yeah. You know, it's good. This is this is nice and professional. It's good on the hoof.
SPEAKER_05We we we uh on on the hoof, on the hoof. On the top chat, Chris Watts has said, good afternoon, screasy. It sounds like a portmanteau of our two names.
SPEAKER_01Tell you what, I should do is I should open this video before I try and share it, shouldn't I? That would be that'd be even better. Tell you what, this clip better be worth it.
SPEAKER_05It's a long, hard road, people. This this episode about suffering. The road is long right here we go.
SPEAKER_01We've got uh the the video is at least open on my computer now, so we're gonna give this a go and see what happens. It might be mind-bogglingly loud because the volume, there's always a disparity, so we'll see.
SPEAKER_00Here we go. Here's Tom. That because I now understand where my beliefs and values came from, that that rather than just drown completely beneath a kind of despair, um I I can cling to that ultimately um the the power of Christianity is expressed most potently through its stories. And those stories are not just in the New Testament, but but in what Christians call the Old Testament as well. And those stories don't have to be literally true. So the Exodus doesn't have to be literally true for the story itself, in my opinion, to be true. So I think that stories how certain stories have such a power that you can surrender to them. And so essentially that's that's what I feel that I'm doing is that I have I've surrendered to the truth of the stories and therefore of the kind of the poetry and the mythology that they express, and I'm happy to identify myself with the truth of those stories and to see them as true in in a kind of a moral, a poetic, uh a mythical sense. There you go.
SPEAKER_05That's all I got.
SPEAKER_00That's all I got. That's good.
SPEAKER_05That's that that's that's what I had as well. Brilliant. Yeah, yeah. So yeah, an interesting way of thinking about faith, I think. And and sometimes you get pushback and people are like, no, it's not stories, they're actually true. Um whereas Tom was talking about the truth of the stories, and he clearly seems to think that they are both truthful and powerful, such that he needs to surrender to them. So he's not using stories in the in the sense of little distractions, little illustrations to to you know, to distract you. That they are not distractions. Um, they are the power that has built the world. Like the reason why we think of human rights and human equality and humanism, and the reason why we believe in liberty and freedom and all these kind of um notions and ideals, these liberal values, um, is because of stories. Stories really have built the modern world, and they are very robust things. They are things that demand not only for us to listen to them, but for us to actually surrender to them. So, like like power, uh stories are an incredibly powerful thing, right?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and I mean we see that I mean we are we we know that in our everyday lives, don't we? I mean, we we're consumed by story generally. Um not only our own story, but you know, think how much time we spend uh just absorbed in uh some series, some narrative that we want to hear, you know, right and that we can escape to. But then even even in the Bible, I mean, the whole the Bible is full of story, isn't it? You know, and I don't just mean you know, there are the the the stories of the events that happened, but um you think of things like um David and Bathsheba, and actually how is how is David convicted of what he has done in that? It's through Nathan who comes, uh Nathan the prophet and comes and tells him a story, um, which is there in 2 Samuel 12. And you know, should shall I read some of this? Yeah, do, yeah, it's it's fair. So um, yeah, if you've got your Bibles is in 2 Samuel 12, um and at verse 1 it says the Lord sent Nathan to David. When he came to him, he said, There were two men in a certain town, one rich and the other poor. The rich man had a very large number of sheep and cattle, but the poor man had nothing except one little ew lamb he had bought. He raised it, and it grew up with him and his children, shared his food, drank from his cup, and even slept in his arms. It was like a daughter to him. Now a traveller came to the rich man, but the rich man refrained from taking one of his own sheep or cattle to prepare a meal for the traveller who'd come to him. Instead he took the ewe lamb that belonged to the poor man and prepared it for the one who'd come to him. David burned with anger against the man and said to Nathan, As surely as the Lord lives, the man who did this must die. He must pay for that lamb four times over because he did such a thing and had no pity. Then Nathan said to David, You are the man. This is what the Lord the God of Israel says. I anointed you king over Israel, and I delivered you from the hand of Saul. I gave you your master's house, uh uh the master's house to you and your master's wives into arms. I gave you all Israel and Judah, and if all this had been too little, I would have given you even more. Why did you despise the word of the Lord by doing what's evil in his eyes? You struck down Uriah the Hittite with the sword and took his wife to be your own. You killed him with the sword of the Ammonites. Now therefore the sword will never depart from your house, because you despised me and took the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be your own. Well. Yeah. So I mean we see that. I mean Nathan tells his story, um, and you know, it is very, you know, very cleverly done, isn't it? That of course David's reaction to it is to be outraged by it, and then Nathan just very, you know, very uh very cleverly just says, Well, actually, you know, you're that guy, aren't you? This is you. Um and it and it really kind of just brings David down to earth with a bump, doesn't it, from where he's at?
SPEAKER_05Right. Which is yeah, brings, yeah, it brings David down with a bump because like he has been living in fantasy land. What's fascinating is that it's it's David who's living been living in fantasy land. He didn't think he was living in fantasy land, he just thought he was the king and he could do whatever he liked. But that was the story, that was the make-believe story. That was the fantasy, that was the lie that David was living out of. So, how do you convict David of the lie? You tell a made-up story that is more true than the fantasy that David is living out of. And the fantasy story that that Nathan invents is a made-up story that ends up immersing David in the truth. I just think that's really fascinating. You know, David thinks he's doing this real-world, gritty, you know, worldly thing, whereas actually he's in fantasy land. Um, Nathan tells a made-up story in order to confront David with the truth of the matter. Um, and and sometimes people kind of like say, Oh, you can't just be into telling stories all the time. Like if you're a preacher, for instance, don't don't tell a whole bunch of stories because that's just manipulative and you're just tugging at heart strings, um, which isn't fair. But what's Nathan doing?
SPEAKER_01And I mean, I have a feeling there's probably someone else in scripture who used stories. That's right.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, famous, famously. What's his name now? Just this idea that, yeah, I mean, in Nathan's story, you know, it's a little you lamb, not just a you lamb, it's a little you lamb that was like a daughter to him, right? If that's not tugging at the heartstrings, he goes to sleep with it in his arms. Are you picturing the scene? You know, Nathan is totally laying it on thick. And this idea that, oh, we should never do that, you know, when we're communicating the gospel, because that would be manipulative. Well, like only if you think that the human person is just a brain on a stick and that we are just rational individuals who calmly assess the data. If that's if that's your view of the human person, then I guess bringing emotion into things is illegitimate. But if you think that we are actually heart-led creatures, then like you're you're showing up to a gunfight with a knife, right? If you if you're trying to if you're trying to communicate with the human person and you're not using rhetoric and emotion and story, yeah, you're you're showing up with a knife to a gunfight.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_05And and as you say, you know, Jesus, Jesus quite famously tells stories. You know, I mean, one of one of the interesting um places I always think of in this is uh in Luke chapter 10, there's this expert in the law who stood up to test Jesus, teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life? And of course, the first thing Jesus does is ask a question back, which is very good, um, very good evangelistic practice. Yeah, well done, Jesus. You know, gold star for you. Right. So he, you know, so he answers questions with questions. And then um, when the man wanted to justify himself, in reply, Jesus said, verse 30, a man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, where he fell into the hands of robbers, and he tells the story of the Good Samaritan, which again is a story that's tugging at the heartstrings. And so he tells this story of the man who is descending from Jerusalem to Jericho, which was physically a huge descent, because you know, Zion was this mountaintop city, and Jericho was kind of right at the lowest point geographically in the land, and it's you know, due east of Jerusalem. Um, and he so he's falling, and he falls further into the hand of thieves, and he's dead. So, you know, a man goes from the heavenly city east of that Edenic paradise, he falls and he's left for dead. You know, what are we meant to think about this story? And then these, you know, the law comes past, you know, the the priest and the Levite representing, you know, the the power of the law. Can the can the law save a fallen man? No. Does a beautiful stranger save the fallen man? Yes, by pouring oil and wine, you know, which is always symbolizing the oil and the spirit. Uh the the oil is the spirit and the and the and the wine is the blood. And somehow this beautiful stranger, you know, heals and saves the man. And then Jesus says, Who was a neighbor to the man who fell among thieves? So, like, who is who's the lawyer, who's the teacher of the law meant to put in himself in into the sandals of? He's meant to put himself into the sandals of the fallen man, the man left for dead, um, who is saved by a beautiful stranger. And then Jesus says, Now that you've understood having you've you've been saved by a beautiful stranger, go and do likewise. So he tells this story, and he does exactly what Nathan does to David. He tells the story, and then he places the hearer into a surprising pair of sandals. He wasn't expecting to be put into that pair of sandals, but all of a sudden, oh, oh, in this world, I'm the fallen man and I need a Samaritan to save me. Now go and do likewise. And so again, he's immersing someone in the story in order to, you know, in order to show him actual reality. But that I mean that's that's not the way that we tend to think of stories, is it, Paul? You know, like what we we tend to think of stories as like the sweetener, and then there's the bitter pill of the truth that you really need. Yeah, it's the fluff.
SPEAKER_01Like, you know, I I think you know, it's it's easy to understand why we might think that, but if you think of something like you know, 2 Corinthians 10, you know, in verse 4 talks about the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty through God to the pulling down of strongholds, casting down imaginations and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of God. There's this sense, isn't there, that actually out there in the world the world is that the world has its stories already, you know, its imaginations and um strongholds, and actually our job is to is to tear those down, like not like I say, not through um not through the you know warfare with a with a sword, but um at least in part, you know, we in through telling a different story. Right. Um we're telling a different story, but also that that story itself may well be uh illustrated by more stories as well, you know.
SPEAKER_05Right. Right, right. Because even even in the Nathan story, he's using he's using a metaphor, an analogy, you know, there is this you lamb that's like a daughter to him, and and and Jesus just layers on this analogical meaning, like thick and fast. So, you know, there's there's that time where he says, Um, I'm sending you out like sheep among wolves, so be as wise as serpents and as innocent as doves. Like it's a whole menagerie, isn't it? It's like you're you're a sheep among wolves, so be wise as a serpent and innocent as doves, and as gueleless as a giraffe and strength of the bear, ear to the wolf, ears of the puma, puma, puma. Um but we we like we hear that through kind of western ears, and we sort of think, Oh Jesus, you're mixing your metaphors there. To which the Lord of the universe says, Yeah, why don't you? You know, like um, yeah, maybe maybe we should we should copy Jesus. He layers on the stories, um, layer after layer. Um, and uh Brandon in the comments has said Jonathan Peugeot's uh there's no such thing as literal meaning video comes to mind. Yeah, Jonathan Peugeot is very interesting. He's an iconographer iconographer, um, an orthodox guy in Canada, brilliant YouTube channel.
SPEAKER_01Explain for those of us who um are not super brains what an iconographer is.
SPEAKER_05Someone who makes icons. So within Within the Orthodox tradition, icons are very, very important. You sort of meditate. You know, God mediates um his um his existence to us, his reality to us, um, through Christ, the image, and through creation, which has images of the image, and um they they are very into icons. And uh he carves icons and he uh yeah, through graphic design and and and carving, he makes makes those sorts of stuff. But on his channel, he very often talks about story, and uh he will analyze you know the stories that Hollywood are telling through kind of Christian spectacles, and he will analyze the culture through the stories that that um the Bible is telling us. So um, yeah, he he's often saying things like the literal meaning, it's sort of um, in a sense, there is no literal meaning of the story. This the the this um the deepest meaning of the story is the most profound one. We we often think that the most the deepest meaning of a story is what does this refer to? And if the thing that it refers to cannot be put under a microscope, then we haven't yet reached the literal meaning. Whereas, yeah, I think we're living within a story, and the most profound things about this world are storified. Um and um, and and Brandon sort of says there's there's no such thing as a story told that doesn't communicate a purpose. And the purpose is more important than the literal truth. Um and Brandon goes on to say, I say that um as as one who believes that the Bible is historical. So we believe that the Bible does have these historical truths to it. Um but it's not like it's not like you you haven't understood the story until you get it down into um something you can put under a microscope or dissect and and you know scientifically examine. Um that yeah, maybe maybe, you know, so like with the prodigal, not the prodigal, with the good Samaritan, you know, is the most important question to ask about the story of the Good Samaritan. Did that really happen? Show me the evidence. You know, if if there are two or three witnesses who can, you know, testify in court that there was indeed such a Samaritan, I've never read it, and I I will not believe this story until you know produce evidence.
SPEAKER_01You know, I mean, who's ever heard of a good Samaritan? Right.
SPEAKER_05And that's exactly the kind of prejudice that Jesus was playing on.
SPEAKER_01Wild tales.
SPEAKER_05Fake news. Fake news. Fake news. It must be. It must be. But you know, it's it's it's the kind of news that's built the world. And and this is what Tom Holland is kind of talking about, the power of story. Now, I think um someone like Paul Vandle is good at saying, look, if it is true with a capital T, then it is true at every level of analysis, including the historical. So if if the resurrection is true, then yes, it means that spiritually there's hope beyond suffering and the grave, yes. It also, because it is the truth of all truths, it is true at every level of analysis, including the historical truth that Jesus actually got up out of that Jerusalem tomb and never to die again. Um and so the the path, but the pathway is not necessarily let's establish the historical truth of the resurrection, and then maybe layer it up on top of that we can get to some kind of metaphorical meaning that we can live by. It's it's living into and leaning into the story, and at some stage acknowledging that this story really is true with a capital T, and therefore I think the tomb was empty.
SPEAKER_01What what do you think it like, just out of interest, what do you think it looks like for people who because there must be people who would say the the story is has has this truth in it that I want to lean into um but I don't necessarily think the stories are literally true. I mean what what do you want to say to those people?
SPEAKER_05If you are really to lean into those stories, what it really means is that you you in Christ and with Christ and like Christ, you pour out your life for the other, and you you you don't do the self-protection thing, and you love others, though it cost you your life. So if you really lean into this story, if you're if you're really captivated by the beauty of Easter, and you think it's a beautiful story, you know, love came down, love poured itself out for the beloved, no, you know, no matter what the cost was, and trusted somehow that there'd be a happily ever after. That's the the sort of the metaphorical meaning that you take from Easter. Okay, I want to live into that story. Well, that means that when I'm faced with enemies, I need to turn the other cheek and love them. And even though they kill me, yet I offer them peace, right? Well, that's gonna cost you. That's gonna cost you in real world terms. And I think the only way that you can then lean into that story is bel is to believe that in real world terms, you will be raised up at the end of this process. Because if you if you don't think, you know, there was a a back and forth on Twitter um during lockdown, uh, during actually in June, um, there are a bunch of sort of armed militias that were guarding statues in the states. And and especially there was this militia um that was guarding a kind of a statue of Christ. And everything in the statue was white. So I mean the cross itself was white and Jesus was white, it was made out of white stuff, right? And um, but you know, they had a tip-off that this was going to get toppled um because white Jesus, right? And so this picture went around social media of this armed militia with like six guys with automatic weapons, kind of armed to the teeth, with you know, like belts of bullets over their shoulders, right? Underneath Christ with his arms outstretched to the world. And and I just retweeted that image and just said, forgive them, father. They know not what they do. Um, because you know, here's here's here's the story of loving your enemies to death um and not living by the sword. And people want to protect that story with a whole bunch of automatic weapons. Um, so I tweeted that out, and then but then somebody came back at me and said, Um, you know, you're being naive. The the the forces that would topple that statue will not stop and they will they will shoot you. And then one person tweeted at me a picture of under Mao soldiers making peasants dig ditches before they shot them in the back of the head. And you know, I was sent this image of people with guns, and you know, the the implication was this is where it leads. If you allow armed people to to do this thing, this is where it leads. You know, are you willing to be that peasant? Um, and and to play the whole pacifist card. And I had to think long and hard because I actually, like convictionally, because of the Easter story, I think it is better to be the peasant than the person with the gun in that picture. And the story would tell me it's better to be the peasant getting shot than it is to be the revolutionary shooting. If that's the case, um you really need to believe that if you're the peasant getting shot in the back of the head, um, you'll be raised up again at the end of it. Like you you really, if if it comes to that level of imitating Christ and pouring yourself out, um that's that's when you get into the territory of 1 Corinthians 15, where Paul says, if Christ wasn't raised from the dead, we are to be pitied more than all people. Um it's he's saying it to people who are flagging in their Christian devotion, and and and he ends the chapter by saying, Therefore, let us give ourselves fully to the work. But you as you give yourself fully to the work, you need to believe that resurrection is not just a nice story that will get you into the sacrificial position. You need to believe that resurrection is the kind of story that will raise you up even once you've made the sacrifice. Something like that, I think I'd say.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. That's helpful.
SPEAKER_05But yeah, so I mean, what's interesting is that I I'm meeting more and more people who they um they kind of say, yeah, the the story of Christ is the greatest story. I don't think it actually happens. I don't believe in resurrection. And therefore I'll live my life by that story, but I don't think it's true. Whereas I think um you just can't lean yourself into that story fully unless you think it's true at every level, um, including the the resurrection bit of it. Um at this stage, we were going to play for you uh Wendy Olsop clips, but uh, I'm not sure we're gonna be able to do that. But let me let me just describe a couple of um the things that we we talked about with Wendy Olsop. In the um description of this video, you'll uh see a link to the uh the interview that she gave us on Friday night. And um what was fascinating to me is that we couldn't talk about suffering without talking about stories. And so we we talked about the story of um the perfection of creation at the beginning. We took we spoke about the story of the fall, um, we talked about the story of Job, and we talked about the story of Lazarus. Um, and actually, we we couldn't talk about any elements of the suffering that she's gone through. She's gone through a heck of a lot of suffering, all sorts of diseases coming all at once, and a divorce that she didn't want, and um, just calamity after calamity was befalling her, but she couldn't make sense of any of that except as regards to those stories. Um, and um I wonder, Paul, as we think about those those four stories, Eden, Fall, Um, Job, and Lazarus, um, what help is it to have a story in the Bible that's you know full of paradise and a garden of Eden and everything's hunky-dory? Like what benefit does it have to think about that story?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, well, I mean, yeah, it can comes up relatively early on, doesn't it? I think in your discussion that you're talking about about this, and that some people would say, well, it's doesn't it seem very very cruel to have you know this Garden of Eden kind of situation set up where everything is, you know, God says this is not just good, it's very good, and you know, there's this harmonious kind of thing, and almost a uh a picture of life um life minus the pain and the suffering, um living kind of in relationship with God, walking with God in the garden. Um and actually I think what Wendy says, which was quite helpful, is that the the the Eden story um kind of helps us to ex what she said it I think she's the word she used was it echoes echoes the loss we feel daily or something along those lines, she said. Um so you know when we I I don't even think there she's talking about particularly like big cases of suffering, but just generally in day-to-day life that sense that things are not as they could be. You know, they're not things might be good, but they're not very good, they're not perfect, you know. There's always there's always something going on, there's always pain or suffering or some kind of issue. Um I think she's kind of saying that Eden gives us this kind of an explanation for that, that there's a reason we look around and we feel you know, um a certain sense of discontent with the way things are, whether it's our situation or the world around us, and it's because there was this thing there. So actually, you know, rather than being a you know, uh a cruel thing, actually it's a it's a helpful thing for us to have the Eden story. It gives us some explanation for why we feel this way, which perhaps you know, I think when we've had conversations the conversation with the atheists is that the in a sense it that their problem is they don't have a problem with evil, you know. Or it's difficult to have a problem, you know.
unknownRight.
SPEAKER_01Whereas we can have a problem because we believe there is a there is an Eden that was up here and this is a fallen we're in a fallen state now. Whereas the atheist just has to say, well this is just the way it is, so get over it. Um Right, right.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, step step one when you're addressing the problem of evil is to make sure it's a problem. And we don't even we don't even get off the ground if we can't establish that it's a problem, but why should it be a problem?
SPEAKER_01If you just want to do the Dawkins like, you know, at at root, you know, no good, no, no evil, those kind of things. Um I think that that's the logical conclusion. I think Dawkins is actually bang on if you're gonna hold that position, but then you can't you can't really turn around and say, hey, suffering is bad or it's wrong. You can say I don't like it, it's unpleasant. But you can't really have a problem with it and say we need to stop these things or something.
SPEAKER_05Right. Yeah. If everything is random, nothing is wrong. But that's the first thing we feel about suffering is that it's wrong. Um, and that kind of brings us to the the second story uh that we spoke to um Wendy about, which was the fall. And you know, and and again, every experience we have of suffering is an experience of fallenness. You know, cells are meant to multiply healthily. When it goes wrong, they multiply malignantly, and you get cancer. And you know, and you're you know, you're meant to be healthy, but you fall from that, and there's disease. You're you're meant to, we feel like you're meant to have these harmonious relationships, and then they fall apart. And and you know, we're meant to live and yet we die. You know, every every experience of evil and suffering in this world is an experience of of the fall. So again, you might think, oh, these ancient stories, and there's a you know, there's a magical tree, and there's a talking snake, and you know, that these stories are of no um earthy benefit to you. Actually, that they are very gritty because they actually name the the fallenness of of this world. Um, and then we spoke about Job. Um, so I mean there's there's loads to say about Job, but Paul, what what um this this could be a whole series of of podcasts, but what does Job as a story teach us about suffering?
SPEAKER_01Well, she talks again early on about um I think she said her pastor rang her up and said, like, I feel you're like your living story of Job. And I think she she was said, like, actually, like this, despite the fact she'd been a Christian kind of all her life, you know, or since very young, and she'd been through Bible college and stuff, she didn't really feel prepared still for all the suffering she was living through. And there was a sense of kind of like, Well, you know, I I th I think you I think you say it in your conversation with her, we we talk about seasons sometimes being like you have a s a season of suffering and stuff, and it just seemed for her that it was season after season after season, and it was just ongoing, and she was a bit like, Well, I don't understand this. Um but there was this sort of moment for her, I think, where looking at the story of Job, she realized that we all quite we all know the beginning of Job quite well, and we all know the end of Job quite well. But actually the majority of Job is just this bit in the middle where actually it's he's he's in he's in the he's in the pit, he's at the bottom of it all, and it just goes on, goes on and on at that point.
SPEAKER_05It you know, in like 40 chapters almost, yeah. From chapter three to chapter 38. Yeah, and like Alright, Job, all right, yeah, we get the idea, all right. Keep it light, keep it light.
SPEAKER_01But I think you know, for someone in you know Job's position, um it w it must have been tricky, it must have been hard to see to see the light at the end of the tunnel, in in a sense, if you want to use it like that, because you know, it was just this non-stop continuous thing, one thing after another, and then no no way out um for the foreseeable future. And actually, uh, you know, I think there's a sense in which when you go through Job we can at least take some um we can take comfort actually if we're feeling like that. Actually, the Bible doesn't it's not that the Bible doesn't talk to those situations, the Bible certainly has this whole whole book here where for 40 chapters or so we have someone in that situation looking at it and kind of going, Well, I don't really know what's going on, and you know, I don't and and no one seems to have the answers and yeah, and all these things, and you know, obviously he's got his useless friends and stuff like that as well. It just makes things worse.
SPEAKER_05They do. They're very illuminating, I think, because like we all recognize them, very you know, you know, Eliphaz and uh Elihu, and well, yeah, um, there's three, and then Elihu comes along, and you know. Um, but yeah, this idea that you know they think that suffering happens only if you get stuff wrong. So if suffering has happened to Job, he must have got something wrong. And psychologically, we've all got a lot invested in the miserable comforters philosophy because we'd like to think that we are immune from Job's sufferings, if only we're clever enough and good enough. Um, so we've got a lot invested in like people don't have patience with patience, right? It's it's something you sort of noticed in healthcare. You know, we we we let people to be sick for a little bit and we bring them the grapes in week one. But if they're still if they're still ill in week two, week four, week eight, um, we lose patience with patience because they are a rebuke to our theology of glory. And our theology of glory is as long as we climb the ladder and do well enough in life, then that kind of suffering won't hit us. If if suffering hits Job in spite of being righteous, well, that would mean that we live in a world in which the righteous can suffer. Oh, I, you know, in which I could suffer, in which no matter how how well I do in life, um, I I could be brought down to the pit. And we're so terrified of that that we end up actually persecuting sufferers for for being in the pit for so long, because they remind us that this world is a terrifying place, and we don't want to be reminded about that.
SPEAKER_01Um, I was gonna say, you know, and it seems in one sense, it seems suffering can look like just random, can't it? You know, from when you when you see that that's the thing, isn't it? Because like unlike the friends, the the friends think you must have done something. And it and it's not that it's random because we know God is at work in things. Um, but in at least from our earthly perspective, I mean we don't know. Who knows? Next week you wake up and you don't feel very well and you find out you've got some terrible you know illness that you're not gonna recover from. Um those those things you none of us are guaranteed you know, none of us are guaranteed anything, are we, basically. Um and that and that is in a sense what what makes it um difficult, I suppose, for people. Um and particularly knowing how to respond, like how do you sit with I mean what you say about um you know you take the grapes in week one and then week two, you know, uh come on, like um you know, there's some truth in that, isn't there? Obviously that's that's probably a bit extreme, but um but it's it's hard to know like what do you what are you supposed to say to the person who who is just stuck in suffering with no you know, maybe no hope of I was gonna say recovery, that makes it sound like they're gonna die. Not saying they're gonna everyone's gonna die, but you know they are though, Paul. They are but I mean just someone whose life who basically for the rest of their life, which may be a good long life, stuff is gonna be really tough.
unknownRight.
SPEAKER_01How do you sit with someone in that without ending up just saying the same platitudes as you know, these guys, Job's friends? Yes.
SPEAKER_05Um yeah, platitudes really reveal the kind of theology we have about suffering, you know, worse things happen at sea, you know. Um or lightning never strikes twice, or things like this, um, which kind of yeah, can can minimize. And and what we don't want to be heard as saying is um be careful of saying X, Y, and Z in any one situation, because that actually um any number of platitudes can actually be heartfelt and received warmly and really help people. And in in some senses, if we're constantly worried that we'll say the wrong thing, we might not draw near to people in suffering. And that would be the worst thing. If if if we're so fearful of saying the wrong thing that we actually say nothing and make no approach to our suffering friends, that's far worse than coming in with a heart that is wanting to do good. And maybe fumbling it, you know, may maybe maybe getting it wrong. In one sense, presence with the sufferer is is more important than whatever wisdom you can bring to them.
SPEAKER_01And it's that it's that thing, maybe you you don't you don't have to have an answer to it to be to to mourn with those who mourn and those kind of things, do you?
SPEAKER_05Right. Brene Brown's got that that wonderful sort of analogy of you know, when you're when you're in the pits, there are those who are you know from up on high who give you advice and their advice um you know is is usually um oh what does she say? She says it it starts with two words. Um oh, what does she say? Um basically, you know, if if you say, you know, at least though those are the two words you should never use. She says, you know, if someone has the the miscarriage and you say to them, well, at least you've got two other children, you know, I mean, does does that help? Or or you know, Jimmy gets thrown out of school. You don't then say, Well, at least Sarah is a straight A student. Um, at least is is a minimizing thing. It's it's um again, it's what we constantly want to do because we don't want to think that life could be really terrible. So we're always going, at least worse things happen at sea. Lightning doesn't strike twice, at least, so we minimize, we minimize, we minimize, and we give advice from on high. And she says, you know, true consolation and comfort comes when you go down into the pit with the person and say, Me too. Um, and of course, you know, Jesus is exactly that kind of a God who doesn't just yell down from heaven and say, at least count your blessings, you know. Um there is there is truth about counting your blessings. Um, and there is truth about getting getting your suffering in perspective and all that, but that's not the ultimate hope. The ultimate hope is is Christ joining us in the pit and saying, Me too, and on the cross. My goodness, does he he says me too in an amazing way? Um, Brandon on TopChat says, uh, what strikes me about Job is the arbitrariness of any particular instance of suffering, but the profundity of the purpose of the suffering overall. Get those two layers, don't you? Job Job's constantly saying, Why God? Twenty times he asks God why, and he never receives an answer. But we know the answer as we read, you know, there there is an overarching uh purpose to all of this. Um but actually Job enters into, and and the experience of reading Job is the experience of entering into the suffering of one who doesn't know the end from the beginning, but just has to trust um as he as he walks through that long hard road.
SPEAKER_02And so, I mean there is I'm just thinking about there is a perspective thing and there's the the kind of what was the words that Brandon used there?
SPEAKER_01Um the profundity of the purpose or the purpose, yeah. There's yeah um perspective and purpose. You know, like you say, it is good to get perspective in a sense, isn't it? You know, so I think about this time we're in now. And I think it's a shame I I think personally, as you know, I only speak for myself, it's a shame that I think so many Christians the way we're viewing COVID and coronavirus is almost like it's the end of the world. Um whereas my perspective is that um I'm not saying it's not bad, but actually it this is the way people have lived for the majority of human history with these things hanging over them. Many people in the world today, you know, or or or before 2020, even in modern day world, have lived in this kind of with these things hanging over them, disease that they weren't sure they would could get, you know, over and recover from and would escape. Um if anything, this is the blip. So the the blip, sorry, the blip is the what we've had, it's the comfortable the 70 years post-war, yeah. Exactly, that of peace and generally kind of avoiding pandemic and and sickness and those things. Um and I think you know, so it's good to have that perspective because we can look at it and say, well, you know what, this isn't we're not going through anything new in some ways here. Um of course what we we can also as as Christians we have the bigger picture, you know, the the we might not necessarily know what the purpose is behind all this. But I mean when I used to talk about suffering, I used to talk about um like a monet painting. Like when you if you've got a monet painting and you're just up against it like that and you're staring at this small patch, it's just gonna be like a mess of paint and you're not gonna have any clue what's going on. And it's only when you're able to draw back from it and see the whole picture that it comes into focus and you sit you can see what's going on. Um and you know, in in God's mercy, stuff goes on in our lives where we've gone through those times where everything seems a mess and is painful and hard, and we've got some distance away from it, and we can see an element of the picture, the bigger picture. Um, but there are of course things where we we might never see the big picture until you know, not this side of you know heaven. Um, but I suppose for us at least we have the trust that there is this bigger picture that God is working in, you know. I mean, that that even the most profound and terrible of suffering has a has a purpose. And I suppose we see that on the cross above all, don't we?
SPEAKER_05Right. Yeah, that's the story to frame it all that yeah, Christ turned deiside into the greatest glory um and and the greatest story that that ever was. You know, the killing of God ended up being the salvation of the world. Um, you yeah, you need to inhabit that story and to really believe that that God is into turning crucifixions into resurrections. And if he did it in the the grand story, he'll do it in my little story. Um, Paige Wright um asks the question how do any of us prepare for suffering before we're in it? Um and in one sense, I want to answer like you you almost can't um like because there's a sense in which when you read about the long dark night of the soul or something like that, you almost romanticize it and you almost think, oh gosh, it's it sounds it sounds very interesting. It sounds like what an artist would go through, and you know um, and aren't aren't the tortured artists the really you know interesting ones, you know? And I remember, I remember like age 21, 22, I think I was 22, and I prayed this prayer from Philippians 3. I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of sharing in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, and so somehow to attain to the resurrection of the dead. And as I read about that, um, the fellowship of Christ's sufferings, I prayed in a very glib fashion. And I pray, God, if I can, if I can know Christ better in suffering, then bring it on. Um, which, like I look back and now I just think like you had no idea what you were praying for, did you? And within a week, the home office um said I had to leave the country within 10 days' time or face 10,000 pounds fine and six months in prison. And my girlfriend, who I was hoping to marry, um, said that she was actually seeing somebody else and she didn't want Jesus anymore. Um, and I I went home and my parents were going through a very messy divorce, and there was uh some scandals going on in the church that I then um joined, and like a whole bunch of hap things happened within just weeks of me praying, you know. If I can know Jesus in suffering, then bring it on. Um and I think I imagined that, you know, oh the long dark road. It sounds kind of intriguing and interesting. No, it sucks. It's not interesting, it's not no it's not romantic.
SPEAKER_01No, and I had a similar thing with a friend of mine actually, like from the States, who said, you know, it it had become not not a glib thing, but like he'd he'd prayed through that stuff and you know, and he said, like, man, if I'd known you know what would come of that, you know, got because I mean he he had like two two of his brothers took their own lives and stuff, and you know, he just went through such the you know this such a time of pain and suffering. Um but he you know so so even in the midst of that though, being able to kind of look at it and and and keep trusting though. Um but that that's the reality, isn't it? That you know, we talked about it a bit last week, I suppose, with the John Bear stuff that if as Christians we're called to take up our cross and die. I just wonder whether sometimes we think that like the Christian life is basically gonna be like fine and then sometimes bad stuff happens to people and some people get some really bad suffering and the rest of us get a little bit every now and again and so on. But I mean the the picture Jesus gives of following him really is just like, yeah, come and die. Like come and suffer with me, like Yeah, that's not it, obviously. There's glory and joy and but I mean I wonder whether we in the West just are very just we're just not prepared for that suffering side of it. We just don't we basically think we should be we can have all the comforts of Western middle class secularism and have a kind of Christian sheen on the edge of it.
SPEAKER_05Yeah. And maybe I'll have six months of redundancy at one stage in my twenties, but but by and large, you know, yeah. Life is on the up, you know. Well, like it happens like when I remember preparing to preach from Psalm 23, I listened to like dozens of sermons that people were preaching on Psalm 23, yeah, you though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death. And and almost to a preacher, they were all saying, at some stage, you might walk through the valley of the shadow, and you need to be ready for that.
unknownYou know?
SPEAKER_05I think the analogy is we're all walking through the valley that is overshadowed by death, and it's heading to that one destination. That's the road we're all on. But it was just fascinating to me that dozens of preachers, you know, spending lots of time reading Psalm 23, were thinking, well, yes, you know, some, you know, some members of my church might at this stage be walking through the valley of the shadow, and they need to be ready, you know, as opposed to like the like the shadow, the shadow in the valley might be um the the you know the odd surprising thing that comes up when actually it's it's it's the fact that there's there's there's light and hope, which should be the the surprise. Yeah. A great comment on Top Chat. Stir and Fryer has just asked, uh has just asked, if we're not suffering, is something wrong? Okay, if we're if we're all walking through the Valley of the Shadow, if we're not feeling the shadow right now, is something wrong? And I I guess I'd refer you back to the John Bear interview where he he kind of talks about, you know, all of life is mortification and all of life is pouring ourselves out for the neighbor, for others. Um, so you like you might just have gotten promoted and you might just have moved into the dream home and you've just booked the dream holiday and life is going well. Um, it's not so much about whether the circumstances in your life are sunny or not, but it is, it is about in in that prosperity, what are you dying, right? I are you pouring out the life that you've been given? And maybe you have just maybe you have just inherited a dream home. You know, friends of mine have just inherited a dream home in the West Country. And what are they doing with it? Well, they're gonna fix it up, but they're they're also gonna offer it to people who who really need a break, um, and you know, pouring out the blessing that they have received. Um so do you always need to be experiencing suffering? No, absolutely not. Um, but you do always need to be um pouring yourself out and using whatever blessings you have. And I think, and and I'd say you need to be accompanying people on their journeys, people who are especially suffering right now. So 2 Corinthians chapter 1 comes to mind where we are comforted in our sorrows so that we can comfort whoever we're walking with in their sorrows. Um, so I think in two ways, yeah, you might be going through prosperity, but A, um, that prosperity is given that you might pour it out. And B, you're meant to be accompanying people who are feeling the suffering very acutely right now. I think that's where I would go with that. And you know what? It's actually two minutes past two. Um gosh. Doesn't time fly when you're talking about death and pain and struggle.
SPEAKER_01Um, there's a hang on, sorry, there's a really Page Wright has just said, and I think she said, I often think during my time of suffering, uh, instead of why me, why not me? I think that's really interesting. You know, I I and I think this is what maybe this is one of the things I've been thinking about just recently, and particularly off the back of that John Bear thing the other week, just that or or the whole COVID thing. You know, we're like, why is this happening to us? Well, why wouldn't it happen to us? Like, this is what the world is like. We've just been asleep to the fact that you know the world is like this for so long now, right? Um that we've we've been ill prepared for it, even as Christians, let alone everyone else.
SPEAKER_05So right, yeah, exactly, exactly. So um, yeah, do keep uh the questions rolling in. And um can I can I share with you something really cool, guys? Because um we have a rap. I'd like to tell a story all about how my life got flipped turned upside down. It's basic that's basically Psalm 23, isn't it? You know, the Fresh Prince of Bel Air. It's a retelling. Um uh yeah, we are doing in terms of storytelling, um, we are telling a great Christmas story again this year. And it's called Let Me Go There. And uh I'd love to show you just uh the initial uh few seconds of it and get you excited about it because we need your help uh to make it. Uh we we basically need a whole bunch more computer hardware in order to make this uh story fly.
SPEAKER_02Um and so let me uh let me just share screen about Christmas 2020 and see if you guys are able to help. Oh no, because we can't have computer audio, can we?
SPEAKER_05I forgot. I forgot. Anyway, this year, this year, it's gonna be huge. Uh Let Me Go There is the story of a father and son who go into a uh curiosity shop, and the son is drawn to a snow globe. And he looks closer at the snow globe, and there's this gnarled, weird, twisted tree. And standing in front of the tree, there is a boy, and unmistakably, the boy in the snow globe is the sun. And he looks at this snow globe, he looks back to his dad. His dad is not surprised at this. His dad says, look closer. And as we look closer into the globe, we are joined. Well, we join this strange dark world. And the big question is does the sun want to enter this world? Will the sun commit himself to this world in order to turn it the right way up? And if you if you want to see the clip that I was about to share, you can go to letme there.info. And you can check out uh where we've got to on it. And it's it is a stunning animation done uh 3D by Rod March, uh, who's got an electric um back catalog. So uh do check that out. But um, if you can help us make it, we would really appreciate it. You can go to give.net slash Christmas videos, give.net slash Christmas videos, and we'd love your help in telling that story this Christmas. And Paul, uh, what are some other ways that people can keep in touch with us?
SPEAKER_01Oh, are you there, Paul? Sorry, I was muted. Did you do you want to turn off the screen share? Um Yeah, it's so professional this week. Uh otherways people can keep in touch with us. Yes. So obviously, if you're watching this on YouTube, do um subscribe to the channel, hit the bell, that'll keep you up to date with what's going on. But you can find us on Facebook and on Twitter and on Instagram under Speak Lifeuk. Um, so do kind of give us likes and some follows on there. And then also, of course, you can always head to the website speaklife.org.uk and kind of find out all our stuff there. And if you want to know what's going on each week, then sign up uh to our weekly uh email at speaklife.org.uk forward slash sign up.
SPEAKER_05Brilliant. And uh stay tuned. This week uh we are having an interview with Rachel Gilson Go up for uh reset. And uh she's uh a fan, a fascinating figure. She went to Yale in the States, uh, aged 18, and she identified as gay. She wanted to get married to a woman, she was an atheist, and then she stole a copy of Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis and through that got converted. And uh her story since then since then has been fascinating. And we talk about matters of sex and sexuality and the body and marriage and the gospel, and uh it's it's a really great interview. So please do uh stay tuned. 7 p.m. on Friday for the latest on reset. Guys, thank you so much for joining us. And uh, we will have uh ever more smooth technology uh next week, we promise. But uh until then, bye-bye. All the best. And then I'm gonna switch off the uh the stream. Are we supposed to do the talking bit now? Oh yeah, talking, talking, talking, talking, talking. I love stir and fry. Say, Glenn, you're tiny. Thanks a lot, stir and fry. Oh dear.