Well hello and welcome to the live cast. My name is Paul Feasy and as ever I'm joined by Glenn Scrivener. Hello, Paul. Here we are in the studio. Yeah, we're all here, which is good. Still got our Christmas on. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Well, you know, we're in the festive season now. I thought I'd match you for my jumper. Yep. Yeah. Got Darth. So you know it's tis the season when you've got uh Darth with. What does it say? I find your lack of cheer disturbing. Yeah. There we go. Yeah, I've gone for the uh the die hard themes. I have a machine gun. Which is the uh classic Christmas movie of all time, as we know. Brilliant. Yes.
SPEAKER_05And Alexander saw the lands he wrote. He had no more lands to conquer. Yeah, Alan Rickman, God rest his soul. Um yeah, so we we thought we'd do 2020 in review. Yep. Or in the rear view. That would be that would be nice, wouldn't it? It would be nice to see the back of 2020. In the rear view.
SPEAKER_03I have a feeling that what's coming up, it's not going to be much better though.
SPEAKER_05In the foreseeable future. Have you seen there's a cartoon and it's got this little wave called COVID. And um there's like a camera on it and a reporter pointing to the little wave. And then behind the wave called COVID is a massive tidal wave called poverty. It's like, that's coming. Oh brilliant. So get ready. Oh well. Get ready for 2021. Look forward to it. Yeah, I think we've got so much to talk about, we might need to do this in two episodes. Right. So it's been a busy year. It really. Yeah, a few things have happened. One or two. One or two. One nice. But actually, way back in January, can you remember January? What were you, what were you looking forward to?
SPEAKER_03I don't even remember, to be honest. Yeah. I mean, just yesterday when we were talking about some clips we might want to look at, there was a lot of videos where I just thought, was that this year? Like it feels like another lifetime ago. I don't remember life before lockdown. We look a lot younger in some of these days. Age just terribly.
SPEAKER_05Have you seen those before and after of like Barack Obama like in 2008 or 2016?
SPEAKER_03Yeah. He's like a kind of fresh-faced young man, Tony Blair. And Tony Blair is just fresh out of prep school. Sort of withered old man, brain hay. That's everybody.
SPEAKER_05That's everybody in 2020. So we thought we'd do like up until June, and then uh we'll have another go from July to the July to the end. But um one one thing to begin with, we we we launched uh a video that was several years in the making called I Gave My Life to Jesus, um, which is a poem that I delivered to a youth conference. Um, might have been back in 2016 or something, um, in which I kind of tell my story as a teenager. And uh it did really well at the youth conference, and so we refilmed it and we released it in January. Let's have a have a look at uh some of the opening of I Gave My Life to Jesus. There's young language.
SPEAKER_04I gave my life to Jesus about a thousand times, and teenage shrines of rare experience. They glare delirious and dare obedience. I'd swear allegiance is soul bad and serious, each prayer more daring than the previous. On stage, the preacher saw we staunched hardcore, flocked to the fore to knock, knock, knock on heaven's door. He claimed salvations like he was keeping score. Yet none was sure but he. None doubted more than me. So I prayed again to firm cement it, making sure I really meant it. Vowed my life to be amended, willed my altar, dust ascended, gave my heart to be expended. Then when all my prayers were ended, there's nothing but myself lamented. Oh, I pretended all was mended and extended lifted hands, but within I could not understand. What more could he demand?
SPEAKER_05Seemed to resonate with quite a few people that uh that experience. Is that something that uh you resonate with, the whole give your life to Jesus thing?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I think so. Oh, and it's that it's that thing, isn't it, of um Oh, I this year I gave my life to Jesus at camp uh for the fourth time.
SPEAKER_05Last Christmas I gave him my heart, but the very next year I had to do it again. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. And yeah, I mean I I think it's a it's something that definitely happens, isn't it? That there's this sense of people, you know. I I I remember going to some as a leader going to some things, and you know, there were people I like kids I knew, and you know, someone would say, We're gonna do this prayer. I'm thinking, I can see this kid praying the prayer. I'm like, but I know they're a Christian, right? You know, I mean, in the sense, in one sense, you never know, I say. But always be suspicious.
SPEAKER_05I was gonna say, I was gonna say the jury is out. And don't read the Twitter comments because some people are very sure of the code.
SPEAKER_03Oh, yeah, we don't know where you're going. Like, you won't need that jumper. It's been an interesting few days on Twitter for Glenn. Yeah. Um but um what are we talking about? It's all done now. So, like the kid who is praying. Yeah, yeah. And I've even had like leaders say, you know, and if you've prayed this before, you you don't need to pray like again, like this same prayer. But you know, I think people do fall into that trap, don't they? Of kind of, oh, I've got to keep praying this same prayer, and you know, just in case.
SPEAKER_05Evangelists have uh a bit of a vested interest in just saying to people, and you you might have prayed it before, but why don't you just ink it in?
SPEAKER_03Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Maybe you want to echo these words.
SPEAKER_05You might want to, and then and then in your prayer letter at the end of the week, you can say, you know, five people prayed to receive Jesus, despite the fact that, you know, this is the this is the thirteenth time that this kid has prayed. The prayer. Prayed the prayer. Um and if if people want to catch up on uh more about uh the meaning of the prayer, I did a uh uh a um podcast with Cooper and Carey have words. So uh James Carey and and Barry Cooper uh got me on to talk about the prayer and whether it's become a new sacrament in evangelical The interesting thing is uh I did I I vaguely remember on the YouTube, I think it was on the YouTube version of that video, um, someone underneath saying, like, don't listen to this man, like you need to give your life to Jesus.
SPEAKER_03You know, you everybody DC, I'm not, I don't think you've understood the concept of the video. You're not saying you don't need Jesus. No, you know Definitely need Jesus. But it's this it's this kind of strange evangelical thing that's growing.
SPEAKER_05Like, you need exactly you need Jesus, right? He doesn't need you. That's the really like that's one of the big problems with the whole IQ would you like my life? Oh yes, please. Thanks, Glenn. I need this thing, yeah, exactly. Like Jesus doesn't need my life. I need his life. And that's that's the backwards thing that we've we've got, this this idea that yeah, and so we need to receive Christ. And the point of the video is yeah, you need to receive Christ and pour out yourself to the world. Totally. I'm totally on board with that. And yeah, you you absolutely need Jesus, but yeah, he doesn't need you. It's very true.
SPEAKER_03I think that's something people would yeah, that idea of receiving Jesus. Right. It's I think people just struggle with it because it's kind of like, well, what do I but what do I need to do? Yes.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Uh pray the prayer. Pray the prayer. I've already prayed it. Do it again, wouldn't it hurt with it?
SPEAKER_05But it's like, you know, I got married, so I don't know what to do now. You can have a wedding again. No, thanks. That's a great analogy. You can do it like that. No thing. I mean, maybe there's a maybe there's a second honeymoon that you have on your 20th anniversary.
SPEAKER_03Can you imagine if you said to Emma, you know, I I know last year, I know we got married, but I'm just not sure whether it really was like legit. So I really want to ink it in.
SPEAKER_05Yeah. And then she'd be like, you signed it in pencil. Gotta keep your options open, Emma. Come on. Some modern world. Come on. So, yeah, I gave my life to Jesus. Uh and and yeah, it's it's so much informed by actually before heaven, we are to be passive and receive. Before earth, we are to pour out and be totally active in that. Um, but yeah, we can we can so often reverse the gospel and get, especially our youth, we get our youth again and again and again to climb the ladder, pray the prayer, do their bit. And it can be a slavery. So check that out if you haven't seen it before. I gave my life uh to Jesus. And uh and then another thing happened in January uh was the release of uh this video on uh Unbelievable, um the podcast with Justin Briley. I think this is the video that's had the most views from anything that I've been involved with this year, um, largely because of Matt Dillahunty's audience. Um showed up big time in the comments. Of course. Of course. I don't know how many comments it's had, but I mean just like check out check out that thumbnail. Um I I swear I wasn't like frozen. Yeah. But yeah, it it is funny how that kind of tips people into you know what what they expect from a video. Um I just want to figure out how many views this thing has had.
SPEAKER_03I still can't believe that that video was this year. Yeah. Because to me that feels like such a long time ago. Oh, it really was. It really was. Yeah, a crazy length of time. So how many views? Oh, over half a million.
SPEAKER_05Okay, 560,000 views, 15,000 plus comments. So that's yeah, that's don't read them. Don't read them. I got I got some interns to descend into the scuttling underbelly of YouTube. And uh and and in fact, one thing they came up with was um uh at one stage, I did my my my listening face was a bit ridiculous. And one of the comments was um um like some guy who I don't think was one of my fans said, at you know, 14 minutes 33 seconds, we see Scrivener doing the I'm a jerk head bob. Ah, yes. And then if you go to that particular topic. Regular viewers of the live cast will be familiar with that. The I'm a jerk headbob. And then it became such a thing that Apologetic Stub Life did an hour-long video and set it to music. I reported. Oh, I hate myself so much. Look at that. I mean, it's totally I'm a jerk, isn't it? I'm a jerk. I'm a real big jerk.
SPEAKER_03Look at it. It's the little head roll at the end and closed eyes. This has like 2,000 views, do it. I I watch it daily. I'm sure the watch time is not huge, but um, yeah. With something like that though, you've just when when people say those kind of things, you've just got to embrace it, you've got to dive in first and be unashamed of what you've done. So you've done it. I'm not sure I can even reenact it.
SPEAKER_05How do I become that smug? I don't know. It was just in the moment. So there were there were lots of things that I um I wasn't that proud of in that debate. Like one thing was when Matt Delahunty raised um the one study that he pins all his hopes to on whether atheism can deliver a better world. And I I think I went in a little hard.
SPEAKER_04Let's have a look.
SPEAKER_01It's gonna be difficult. Okay. Uh because I don't have access to go to the city. I just mentioned thousands of studies to talk about the benefits of religion. Uh Religiosity versus societal health. There's a study that was done years ago that was in the Journal of Religious Education. So I don't I'm gonna get there too.
SPEAKER_05Gregory S. Paul? Yes, Gregory S. Paul. Yeah. Paleontologist. Paleontologist. A paleontologist who is actually hacked off with creationists. Uh he you know, you go to Wikipedia and you find Gregory S. Paul. But oh that's all about Gregory S. Paul. I'm talking about his data. I know. But I'm quoting his data, not him. Yeah, but he's one study against thousands of others. And he and he and he swims against a tide of literally 89% of uh the studies show that everything goes in the other direction. He did a univariate analysis about secularity and how it relates to the Trevor Burrus. Anyway, we got into that.
SPEAKER_03I mean you I do love the fact so you just go, hmm, paleontologist. This guy who's done studies on the benefits of religion or not.
SPEAKER_05But that's putting it like um very positively. He's actually an ill an illustrator who's most famous for his drawings of sauropods.
SPEAKER_03It's I mean That's the way he goes, but that's Gregory S. Paul. It's like we're not talking about it's it's like, no, it does matter. It's a bit like you know, it's it's the it's the internet equivalent today, isn't it, when people say, oh, here m this person has said something about COVID. You know, where are they? They're a what they're they're they're an animator. Well, that's nothing to do. We're not talking about what they do for a job, we're talking about what they've said about COVID. Well, yeah, to be honest, their their area of expertise might have bearing on what they're saying.
SPEAKER_05And so, like, I I accuse him in that debate of of getting the study wrong, um, which uh like he does. So, like I went back and had a look at all the times that I could find that uh Matt Dillahunty has quoted from Gregory S. Paul. It's kind of funny.
SPEAKER_01There's a really good paper that we've referenced oh a gozillion times um that Gregory Paul wrote, um, basically comparing societal health to religio religiosity and showing a negative correlation between the two. Um, and we've pointed it out many, many times. I'll recommend Gregory S. Paul's work uh that was per published in the Journal of Religious Studies. We've been talking about it for years. That's not really easy. It would be very easy for each of us to sit here and cite different studies. I can go back to the journal of religion and science study that I've been referencing from Gregory S. Paul for years.
SPEAKER_05So in our debate, he called it the Journal of Religious Education, and at other times he's called it the Journal of Religious Studies, at other times it's called the Journal of Religion and Science. It's it's called none of these things. Right.
SPEAKER_03Because it doesn't matter. I mean, and and in fairness to you, I mean, you you'd seen a number of those things before, and I know you you said beforehand, I imagine this will come up. Yeah. And so you were ready for it. And fair play, I mean, because you it you you you should call out things which are nonsense. I mean, you you you may have looked a little bit smug about doing it at the time, I'll be honest. But uh I mean it wasn't believing what you said was still true.
SPEAKER_05Yeah so we do have a review video of the uh of the debates uh in which we go through all the things that uh I'd gotten wrong and and wish I'd uh not done. But uh I mean my my constant line on the debate is I had some great moments in the debate. None of them were when I was speaking.
SPEAKER_03No. You give someone enough rope. Yeah. Yeah, which we we saw with with Matt Dillahunty.
SPEAKER_07Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Rather shockingly, actually, in the things he actually said in the end.
SPEAKER_05Well, I mean, the the morning of the debate, I was actually speaking to a whole bunch of Eastbourne older retired women. And it was a it was a room full of 150, like uh probably the average age was 80.
SPEAKER_03And um Can you imagine 150 people in a room now?
SPEAKER_05Yeah, oh wow. Particularly over the age of 80. Gathered together in some space. It was a super spread of events. Super spreading the gospel. Um I'm an evangelist, what's my R number? Um you know. So, but like I then said, like at the end of my talk, and oh and I'm up up to London to um do a debate with um Matt Dillahunty, and of course they they were all massive fans of Matt Dillahunty. I'm sure, I'm sure they're all familiar. The atheist experience is kind of like number one sub, but um, but actually one woman said, Oh, we must pray for you now, and she got up and she prayed this very stirring prayer, and like so many people said, Oh, I've been praying for you all day. And I thought to myself, Matt Dillahunty doesn't have a prayer, like quite literally. Quite literally, and my my big prayer was that he would dig a pit and fall into it, which is like one of the things that the psalmist says, and it's in Proverbs as well, you know, the wicked dig a pit, and then they fall into it. And I think we sort of saw Matt do that at a number of points, and then we saw Justin Briley um add, you know, he he brought up Hitler. Yeah. So it's nice when someone else does it for you. He uh yeah, he invoked Godwin's rule like towards the end of the you know conversation, because it wasn't spicy enough, apparently.
SPEAKER_03No, no. I think my highlight of the whole thing was mostly Justin's facial expressions through it. Absolutely brilliant.
SPEAKER_05It's kind of sheer disbelief at some of the things he was hearing. Should we hear some of the things that Matt Dillhantey was saying? And I think actually, interestingly, they were they were very well collected together in a video that's on the Fug Life channel, um, where they've spliced together. So there's Matt Delhante and Michael Spicer, who uh is the room next door guy. Yes, the spin doctor who is you know advising Donald Trump or Prince Andrew or whoever is having a car crash interview. And uh the results are hilarious, but it also brings up some of the the low points uh for Matt's argument. Let's have a look.
SPEAKER_01You've got to say something, say anything just I think human human lives have incredible value. I don't think they have any intrinsic value. No, universal cares at all about human life. They have value because they have value to life.
SPEAKER_02Still not what I call playing the sympathy card, though. Is it a good idea?
SPEAKER_00Even if they didn't produce a cure for cancer or great work at all.
SPEAKER_01Yes, if somebody sat around and did nothing to consume, or I don't know how you could consider that as adding value to point at something rather than adding value to society. That is high value in human life.
SPEAKER_05Fine, move on. It is well-being is is the metric that we're using. And Hitler can say, oh, we are so much better off without the disabled.
SPEAKER_02Where are my notes? Where are my notes?
SPEAKER_05You have no idea. You know, we're we're soaring our industry, and numbers are through the roof.
SPEAKER_02Hang on, I've lost my notes.
SPEAKER_05Is he right at that point?
SPEAKER_02At the end of the day, it was the wrong thing to do.
SPEAKER_01Well, that's when you go through and you talk about what data are you looking at to define well-being. Because what data? Yeah.
SPEAKER_05You're having that conversation.
SPEAKER_02Get out. Damage limitation.
SPEAKER_03Oh dear. Yeah, I think that helpfully highlights the um just those moments at the end. Because I think that's that's over an hour into the interview, I think, isn't it? Or near the hour mark.
SPEAKER_07Yeah.
SPEAKER_03And I think that first hour, the, you know, you're back and forth on all kinds of different bits and bobs, but it really is in that last section where that comes up and he does fall, he digs himself a hole, falls into it. Right. And I think we've I don't know if it was on our review or bits, so you can almost see when you've asked him some of those questions, or Justin asked questions, you can almost see the cog's turning where he he kind of wants to give an answer, but he knows that by giving a certain answer it's gonna be inconsistent with you know, the the things he wants to believe. Yes. Um, you know, he I think you know, you've said a number of times like when you're not a humanist, you need to hand in your humanist card if you believe these things.
SPEAKER_04Right.
SPEAKER_03Whereas he kind of you think he wants to be, yeah, yeah, but he knows he's got no real basis for it. No, yeah. And so, I mean, yeah, he absolutely the thing that you kind of prayed for, I think was just put on display. And you didn't you didn't have to draw that out, it was just there.
SPEAKER_05It was there, and you know, just just then had a little go at the from the side and and and I wasn't like that. No, yeah. I mean I I I do now think, like, secular humanists pick one. Right. Because I I I do think unless unless you are anchored to God the human, and therefore you have a foundation for humans being the ultimate value, then your humanism will just unravel.
SPEAKER_03It's a bit like the Douglas Murray stuff we've seen more recently, where he's saying about people saying I'm a rational, secular atheist. He's like, No, you're a you're a Christian. You're you're a you're a Christian atheist. Christian atheists, you know, it's because even the even the kind of humanist or whoever it is is basically well, it's Christianity without Christ, isn't it? It's we want all the fruits of the kingdom without the king. Yeah.
SPEAKER_05And I wonder whether I mean Douglas Murray, he's he calls himself a Christian atheist. I think he's more of an Anglican atheist, and I think Matt Dillahunty is more of a Southern Baptist atheist. But I mean, in interestingly, you know, how how not only his moral foundations are kind of shaped by um, you know, that Southern Baptist culture that he grew up in, but but also the way he proselytizes. Um the way he wants to be evangelistic about it. Sure. He's far more a Southern Baptist atheist. And you know, someone like a Douglas Murray is more like an Anglican atheist, I think. Fascinating, isn't it? Um we got we I mean, lots of feedback on that um video, as I say, there's you know 15,000 uh comments, but um one letter that was uh sent in to us, and uh a guy in the states somewhere, Arizona, I think, he said, I just wanted to say thank you. I've known intuitively that Nietzsche's conclusion about the implications of the removal of God from our worldview, individually and societally societally, are correct. But your conversation with Matt made it so clear and undeniable that now, a weak post-listen, I'm still sorting out the implications. These conversations about whether people can be moral without God are so abstract, and the atheists involved in the conversation are always undeniably good people. But when the conversation turned to elective abortion of babies with Down syndrome, my eyes were opened, not just to the implications of what happens to the weak over time in a society post-God, but to the fact that Matt, a first generation atheist, had already accepted on principle that the strong decide if the weak are us. I'm not a very emotionally expressive person, but I've been so deeply moved by the tragedy that will ensue, and indeed is occurring, simply because Christ is removed from his proper place in our hearts and minds. It's so clear to me now that Christianity is bigger than personal salvation, and Christ is more than a divine friend to help me in this life. I've never really understood evangelism. I've accepted that it's important, but it's never had any grip outside of what can be accounted for by peer pressure. Now I see, and I don't think I can unsee. I was at the gym this week with my personal trainer, and a young man with Downs was there working out with his own trainer. And I saw a person, a child of God, my brother, living just as I live, with the same desires and motivations to grow and improve and become more than what he is. And I saw that as a s I saw that as a society we might decide that his life does not have value, that he might be undeserving of life because he is weak. And I am strong, so I get to keep going to the gym and working to become stronger. I believe this has been a pivotal week in my faith development. Thank you so much for putting yourself in that vulnerable position. I'm sure that what you are doing comes with some great challenges and burdens, but it's making a difference. Thank you, Jay, from Colorado.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_05Colorado.
SPEAKER_03That kind of thing's just really encouraging, isn't it? Because, you know, amidst the sea of what the kind of things you read in response. Yeah. Um, here's a guy who's seemingly, you know, he's a Christian. Yeah. Um but has actually there's been a development there. So you know, there's something's moved in him as well. Um, and so often when you read the comments, it seems like there's people on both sides who are not making any movements at all. Yeah. Um I think, yeah, so it's just really encouraging to read that, isn't it? I mean, I think as well, like what you said there about uh the the the strong decide who is us. Yeah. That was something that we talked about just the other day, and it won't be out yet, but it'll be over Christmas in some of the reset episodes where it only really struck me when we looked back at that interview where you um or Justin and said, Honey, to Matt, about what if all the people you got rid of, you know, do they have value if they if they didn't do anything, whatever? And and Matt says about um well you got asked what you've lost, and he says about you know, they might have given you a cure for something or Produce great art. Produce great art, whatever. And I hadn't really struck me at that point that again what he was saying was those people only have value if what they produce, I put value on it. So it's not that they are valuable, it's if what they can produce is valuable, and it's not that even what they produce is valuable, it's only valuable if I deem it to be valuable, if the strong deem it to be valuable. Right. So they might produce a cure for something, and we go, well, we don't really want it. Actually, we don't think that's the thing, you know, unlikely that one, but you know, a great work of art, and go, yeah, we don't think it's that great kind of art, so you're not that valuable. Yeah. And again, it's the strong deciding, yeah, you know.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, by the metric, and you know, and so you know, Matt Delahante follows Sam Harris in the moral landscape, and and they're sort of utilitarians basically, and they just want to they want to maximize well-being. You're like, okay, what is well-being? And who decides? And and and how do you how would you trade off between great art and a cure for cancer? Like, what's the that that that seems like apples and oranges? And that's like and there there are just multiple measurement problems with the whole thing. But those measurement problems are all solved by the strong. They say, I'll I'll tell you what I want in society. I want this, this, and this. Um, and so I don't know, you know, a guy on on the internet the the other week, he said, um, oh, you lost the debate to Matt Dillahunty, and and and said it in a in a slightly more snarky way than that. And I said, Well, that that would that would be it would be a shame if if if Matt won, then humanism lost. You know, I do think I you know, I'm very I'm not a debater, I'm an evangelist, I shoot my mouth off.
SPEAKER_03I'm you know and I think from what I remember there were people who were humanists who were kind of going, ooh, hang on. Oh yeah. In the comments, even. So even people who would be technically kind of on the other side from us at least. Oh totally. Yeah, yeah. Who were still going, ooh, I'm not sure I want what.
SPEAKER_05Right, and so I'm very glad it happened because I think it it put on display that thing. And I think if Matt won, humanism lost. So that was back in in January, and then then something started to develop in February. Well, it'd been going, you know, from the from the back end of 2019, hence the name COVID-19.
SPEAKER_03Um, why it's called that. Surely it's not. Is it all? Isn't it like isn't the 19 the strain or something? I thought I thought it was a coronavirus identification because it's not like World Cup 94, is it? It's not like they're calling it. I don't think it was a COVID-18, is it? No. This is the thing about doing something uh I don't know. Let us know in the comments.
SPEAKER_05We should have practiced. Yeah, yeah. Let us know in the comments.
SPEAKER_03Surely it's not named after the year.
SPEAKER_05Surely.
SPEAKER_02You don't think? Now that's what I call coronavirus.
SPEAKER_03No. I don't know. I thought it was like something like to do with that comparison.
SPEAKER_07One of us is looking like a real idea which.
SPEAKER_05And uh we're I was I'm about to sho show you this as an example of how little we knew back in March. Yeah, okay. And all I'm proving is how little we know.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I've not seen these clips. Glenn has keyed these. Uh I mean, despite the fact I was there.
SPEAKER_05Let's know these. We were yeah, you were there. Definitely there. You were there. And one of the con one of the bits of context for this is do you remember back in March when apparently touching your face was a massive deal? Yeah, I do. Before toilet roll was the massive deal. Touching your face. Touching your face will kill everybody you love. Um that's the context you need to know as you watch this first live cast that we did on the topic.
SPEAKER_03Today on the live cast Plagues, Pestilence and Pandemics. What does history have to teach us about the coronavirus?
SPEAKER_05You do look so much younger then. I know, it's aged me terribly, this whole ordeal. Hello, everybody. Uh, welcome to the live. Welcome, my name is Peter. And uh we are coming to you from Speak Live Studios Not the self-done ones. Okay. And uh we are talking about what everybody's talking about. COVID 19. COVID? Uh that's either more, I guess. That's the least probably the least of our concern, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, because uh 110,000 people infected with coronavirus virus, or or at least confirmed cases. Um the true number will be many, many times uh that number. Likely. Likely. And uh the deaths are 110,000 worldwide at that point. I don't know. You hesitate to give the figures because they're changing all the time. Okay. Uh increasing at the rate at which they are increasing. Uh that's what exponential growth kind of is. And uh we just wanted to uh talk today about um plagues, pestilence, and pandemics because uh we've been here before. Uh the Church of Jesus Christ has been here before, and uh we wanted to highlight the kind of seven different aspects of church history and how people have uh responded to plagues in Christian history. But uh what is the state of play today, Paul? What are we what are we facing?
SPEAKER_03Uh yeah, so um it seems I'm gonna put these off because I don't really need them at the moment. Uh so I mean it seems to be I didn't touch my face.
SPEAKER_05Face to touch counter. For those following along at home, uh we we are trying not to touch our face during this live cast. Because apparently you touch your face 90 times a day, um, but this is not good for the spread.
SPEAKER_03Well, apparently not, no. So apparently there's yeah, you're supposed to limit touching your face.
SPEAKER_05You are really miffed about this. I am completely miffed. Yikes. I'm feeling outraged just pointing it back. Uh still trying not to. How dare you do that? It's just definitely headphones. Yeah. I touch my headphones. The evidence is there. Exactly. People can see for themselves. I think that was Max Patterson. Um Intern at that stage, now media producer. Yeah. Getting ahead of himself. Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Can you what were we thinking back in March? I d oh man. It just well, as I said to you, as I mentioned earlier, it feels like a lifetime ago. Yeah. It feels like another. I just can't really this I just don't remember almost what it was like not living under this kind of cloud, you know. Yeah. Um, you know, we I think at that stage I mean was that that's early.
SPEAKER_05That's 16th of March, that's before it was before 16th, so it was pre-16th.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. So like we hadn't gone into lockdown. I think we were probably still in the phase then where we were thinking like because have we interviewed people like Jackie Lamb or that?
SPEAKER_05No, no, Jackie Lamb was a great interview if people want to check out later. From Hong Kong, yeah.
SPEAKER_03But they were I just don't think we saw it really coming to our shores in a huge way, did we?
SPEAKER_05I think at that stage, I think um TV uh like reporters going into Italian hospitals and ICUs overflowing and morgues having to use churches to store their coffins, that that was kind of very much in the public eye.
SPEAKER_03I'm not sure anyone saw it coming though, because I don't think I don't think on the 23rd of March. Uh because it was pretty much, wasn't it? They did they announce it on the Friday before?
SPEAKER_05Yeah, yeah, quite it was a real U-turn. Yeah, because we're gonna go for her immunity.
SPEAKER_03So they weren't gonna move through the population.
SPEAKER_05Like, you know, it's we were basically gonna have a big chicken pox party and just shield grandma. That was that was the whole like policy, and then the Imperial College kind of numbers, it's gonna we're gonna, you know, half a million are gonna die. Neil Ferguson said that. And so turned on a dime.
SPEAKER_03I just don't think any of us really saw that it coming because it was it was there just a few days before, and they said, alright, we're gonna do this. I don't think any of us was taking it particularly seriously at that point. I mean, we're you know, we made fun of the touching face. The Wednesday before that, before actual lockdown, we took our children out of school because Becca was pregnant and there was this kind of like, well, we don't really know if it's a risk or not. You know, we're saying there might be more high risk, and there was only like a week of school left anyway before the end of terms so we thought, well, we'll take the kids out. Um and then three days later they closed the school anyway, so um yeah. It was so we were we were locking down before it was cool.
SPEAKER_05You say nobody saw it coming, and yet the scriptures are full of plagues, you know. Sure. And that I mean that was the point of that that um uh live cast. We we had a look at seven lessons from history and seven different quotes from the church handling pandemic. Was one of them buy all the new rolls? Buy all the elbow your way through Sainsbury's grammar out the way. Man, wasn't that crazy? And everyone, everyone was blaming some hor some mystery phantom hoarder who's out there while personally buying five percent extra. Like, no, you are the man. Like, you are you what were those linguals behind you? Nothing. Nothing. I just it's just a little bit extra. Well, that's all it takes. Everybody just needs to take a little bit extra. And there's a there's a run on toilet paper. So, I mean, the Gospel Coalition asked me to sort of um narrow it down to four lessons from church history. And here's something that I I think I got wrong this year. Um, I I started that article um with this. I said, How did the obscure marginal Jesus movement become the dominant religious force in the Western world in a few centuries? That is the subtitle of Rodney Stark's The Rise of Christianity, a book that explores a number of key factors, one of which is plagues. Indeed, to understand the rise of this obscure marginal Jesus movement, we need to understand its remarkable response to plagues. Here, I'll briefly mention four pandemics in history and how the church has responded in the way of Christ. As we note their examples, let's be inspired by their faith, even if we might even if we might make some adjustments for our own time and circumstances. Their impulse to move towards the needy, displayed in heroic sacrifice, is entirely Christ-like. We dare not be less sacrificial in the love we seek to embody. At the same time, the wisdom of such moves in our own day, when we may ourselves be carriers of the infection, needs careful thought. As we look to these historic examples, let the Spirit lead us in our application. But let our spirit our own spirits be stirred towards faith, hope, and love, and may we, with our own pandemic, live out the wisdom away of Jesus before a watching world. And it what it's interesting, because I think what I was being confronted with as I looked at the historic response of plagues is that Christians were moving towards the needy. Sure. In every case. And the messaging from the media in 2020 is lockdown. Keep away. Keep away. Yeah. Distance. Dis yeah, dys socially distance. Social distance. You know, and and I still don't really know how to put those two things together. But I I I do think I do think one of the things is that we've got a chronological snobbery. It's, you know, C.S. Lewis's phrase about how we look down on our forebears and bless them. You know, they didn't know about virology. No. You know, didn't know about immunology. They didn't, you know, they and and so bless them. They actually nursed the sick and the dying. Poor benighted fools. And of course, one of the big differences is we've we've got a national health service to do that. And you know, we do our we did our bit by clapping for them every Thursday night. You know. That was that was all the sacrifice that was called for from us.
SPEAKER_03And you know that by about week six people were like, oh, flip next eight o'clock again. Come on. Yeah, yeah. I saw her coughing the other day, and she's not been out since I just thought she was lazy.
SPEAKER_05But yeah, and so it I I I think it is interesting how we look back on medieval times and we think those poor benighted fools, they were they moved towards the needy. They were probably super spreaders in doing it. And you're just like, I don't know, I I think they were going the way of Christ and the way of love. And actually, Rodney Stark says in The Rise of Christianity that um the the church kind of got a better immunity because they moved towards, you know, and those who they moved towards had a far higher survival rates because they were being nursed.
SPEAKER_03Because they were being looked after.
SPEAKER_05And so just from population studies, you know, the church was doing better by by that tactic. And I yeah, and so I think they're a real challenge to us. So um I I talk about uh Dionysius Bishop of Alexandria. Um the plague of Cyprian was a lethal pandemic in the third century that at its height caused upwards of 5,000 deaths a day in Rome. Wow. Imagine it. While the severe s while the plague severely weakened the Roman Empire, the Christian response to it won admiration and a greater following. Dionysius Bishop of Alexandria reported, most of our brother Christians showed unbounded love and loyalty, never sparing themselves and thinking only of one another. Heedless of danger, they took charge of the sick, attending to their every need and ministering to them in Christ. And with them departed this life serenely happy, for they were infected by others with the disease, drawing on themselves the sickness of their neighbours, and cheerfully accepting their pains. Many in nursing and curing others transferred their death to themselves and died in their stead. You know, very Christ-like. Um and you know, and yet so much of our heroism is, you know, lying on a couch and watching Netflix. Yeah, yeah, it has been a bit like that, hasn't it? But these plagues, they are our teachers, and yeah, we've been trying to trying to learn from them throughout the year, and and I think where where I am, I'm I kind of my thinking is circled back to where I was back in March, is that yeah, we must never forget that plagues are judgments. Um they are judgments from a merciful God that we are to learn from. Um and he will provide a way through. But yeah, I I think it's yeah, going back to the scriptures and seeing how common plagues are in in that thinking actually gives to us a dimension of wisdom that I think we've lost in 2020 when we just see it as a virological problem. You know, it's a problem for Pfizer, and Pfizer will sort it out.
SPEAKER_03You know.
SPEAKER_05Um what if what if we're being told something? What if there's a lesson to be learned?
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_05Um are we learning it? That's the that's the big question. Um and let's just let's just finish um this uh half of our look back at uh 2020. What have you got? What have I got? I've got lined up. I've got how about a song? Huh? Should we go out on a song? Why not? Why not? So uh this this is one of the um cool things to come out of lockdown. I I'd written uh a poem that Phil Moore uh in Nottingham uh wrote uh beautiful music to, and David Gibson did a wonderful arrangement to. And uh yeah, we just uh we loved putting this together, and it was it was one of those things that people did in lockdown, which was sing, and uh we wanted to sing about Christ. And so uh we hope that this uh video blesses you, this song blesses you. Uh we'll have a list of all the videos we've referred to in the uh in the comments section in the uh in the description box, so you can check them out uh yourself. But uh we probably won't see people until um well well Boxing Day. Yes, yes. Um on Boxing Day, we have uh um what have we got? Reset.
SPEAKER_03It's the it's the reset episode. So we've had the or we will have had a lot of the interviews by then, but then we're actually gonna take a deep dive into some of the topics more specifically, aren't we?
SPEAKER_05In those seven episodes. Seven episodes. So we're gonna be talking about uh what's missing, what's morality, and what is meaningful. That's boxing days on Boxing Day. And every day between Boxing Day and New Year's Day, we'll be uh thinking about how to reset. So do uh stay tuned for that, and then uh in the new year, we'll do the second half of 2020. But um until then, thanks and God bless. And let's have a look at We Have a Land.
SPEAKER_06He will lead them to springs of living water, and God will wipe away away every tear from their eyes, and God will wipe away from every tear from their eyes. For mistakes we can forget, and the sins that still be said, we have land, we have a land for our fault and anxious realm for the fears that overall. We have a throne, we have a thrill with saddle. Um ravaged yes, weight and better tears. We have a th we have a threat.