Hello and welcome to the Speak Life Podcast. My name is Glenn Scrivener. Thank you very much for joining us. We've got Becca Legg on the program today. She is the director of restored ministries here in the UK that equips churches to respond well to abuse. And I learned so much from Becca, and I know that you're gonna learn a ton from her as well. She's got so much wisdom to pass on to us. You might be thinking, why is Speak Life talking about issues to do with domestic abuse, sexual abuse, church abuse? Um, I thought you were an evangelistic ministry. Well, we are an evangelistic ministry. Um, but we've been horrified by the idea of Arabi Zacharias seeking after lost sheep, but himself being a wolf. What a terrible thing. And as we seek to bring lost sheep into the fold, wouldn't it be dreadful if we brought them into a place of predation, into a place of danger, into a place of wolves? We can't go around reaching the world if we're not building up the church. Because ultimately those two things are the same things, aren't they? That viewed correctly, reaching the world is building the church, and we build the church as we reach the world. But we can't bring lost sheep into the pen and have the pen to be one of the more dangerous places on the planet. We ought to be the safest place on planet Earth, and that is not just a pastoral need, it's also an evangelistic need. And so we're we're thinking through these issues at Speak Life, and it is so vital to do that. Uh now we've got lots of great uh programs coming up for you at Speak Life, and we've got Diane Langberg who's going to speak into this issue as well. If you're not subscribed to the podcast, uh why don't you just uh hit the subscribe button on your favorite podcatcher and you'll get all this upcoming uh good stuff. But um, without further ado, let me give you my interview with Becca Legg of Restored Ministries. Becca, thanks so much for joining us.
SPEAKER_01Oh, thank you for having me. Thank you.
SPEAKER_00Explain to us uh who is Restored.
SPEAKER_01Uh, so Restored is an organization that's been well we celebrated our 10th anniversary last year. Um, and it was set up 10 years ago to answer a couple of questions that had been raised by God, actually, with Mandy Marshall and Peter Grant, who founded um it, to say, actually, where are men and where are women? And where is the church significantly when it comes to violence against women, when it comes to some of these abuse scandals, when it comes to, you know, the violence that's perpetrated and the rapes and the sexual violence that's perpetrated against women, sometimes seemingly without any kind of recourse to justice, what is the church doing about it and what where are the men? And so that we were set up 10 years ago to do that, and over the years we've been raising our voice to speak out about some of what goes on. And over the years, the focus of what we do has narrowed down to be very UK-specific and specifically looking at domestic abuse, although we're always interested and we're always raising our voice to look at all different ways that that you know that abuse of power comes to light in different ways. So, you know, we exist now to raise awareness still, um, but fundamentally to equip the church to stand with survivors and to stand against abuse in all its forms.
SPEAKER_00That's uh a tremendous ministry to have. I I'm very aware that you know, two weeks ago I did uh sort of a sermon really on 2 Samuel 13 and talked about Rabbi Zacharias as a little bit like Amnon, this crown prince of Israel who who ended up raping Tamar, but it didn't just take an Amnon, it it took a Jonadab who was his advisor, it it took a David who was impotent, it took an Absalom who sort of looked the other way and said, Hush now, dear, be quiet, be quiet. And it took a whole bunch of anonymous servants around Amnon in order to perpetrate the evil and then cover up the evil. Um and and my big burden is to is to say, look, this is not just about one bad apple, and oh, he's dead now, so there's there's nothing to be worried about. But there is a a prevalence to sexual and spiritual abuse and and domestic abuse um that's happening in Christian circles that we're kind of unaware of, or at least I'm unaware of. Becca, can you give us a the kind of this the scale of the problem that we're facing?
SPEAKER_01It's it's you know, it's one of those things we don't want to think exists. Because you're right, we want to better write this off and go, well, that was another time and another place, and and the kind of man or the kind of woman that I would never be. But actually, it really matters that we bring this down to earth and realise it does still go on. These stories are replicated all around the world every minute of every day. And even when you bring that back in, you know, you bring the zoom lens, tighten in on the UK and tighten it in even more on the church. Restore did some research a couple of years ago in 2018 with universities of Coventry and Leicester, and we we did an enormous amount of research with churches in Cumbria in particular, um, and just trying to find out what is the prevalence of domestic abuse was our particular focus. And we asked people, you know, who has experienced abuse within a relationship and who's experienced abuse within a current relationship. And to the answer to that last question was one in four people within the church had experienced abuse within their current relationship. Now that was in all, you know, all kinds of different things going on there, but it was this recognition that actually, as much as we want to believe that our churches are safe places because they should be, and as much as our you know, as our church community is full of people who are chasing after being more like Jesus because they should be, that actually there is still abuse, there are still things going on that that you know bring shame on the church and bring shame on us, um, and which actually we need to address. We can't just keep looking the other way. We need to understand that it's there and then work out, well, what's next? How do we respond to that?
SPEAKER_00Paint a picture. It won't it won't be a pretty picture, I know, but paint a picture of what you mean when you say abuse. What are what are the sorts of things that this report is capturing?
SPEAKER_01So it's capturing all manner of things because I think sometimes when we think about domestic abuse, we expect a black eye or a broken limb or something, and sometimes it captures that. Sometimes it does capture that. I was on a phone call recently working with um another organization, and we were they were supporting um men and women going through marriage breakdowns, and they put on a specialist evening for um for you know, where they were got different specialists in legal experts, family experts, psychologists, like all different people. And a colleague and I went from restored, we needed two of us in the end, because 20, we were amazed, a quarter, 25% of their um group signed up to talk to somebody about domestic abuse. And we even we were surprised by the severity of the abuse that people were going through. So there can be physical abuse, and I think that's very easy to recognise as not okay, but it can also be financial abuse, you know, not allowing somebody to work or making them go to work or not allowing them to have money or making them responsible for, you know, it there there are often opposites that exist within the same um bracket. It can look like emotional abuse where somebody can never be good enough. They're constantly put down, constantly belittled, constantly humiliated. It might look like there's a phrase that gets used called gaslighting, um, which can be a particularly damaging thing. I think people understand the damage of physical violence, but so often this emotional mental abuse that goes on actually scars people for far longer and damages their soul in a way that's very difficult to understand unless you've experienced it. But gaslighting is when somebody just denies your understanding of the world around you, a little like we saw in that story with Amnon, you know, hush now, he's your brother. It's not as bad as all that, you know, and actually it's that that that that minimizing of what you've experienced, the the denial sometimes of what you've experienced that begins to make you question your own sanity potentially in the long run. And it can look like spiritual abuse, you know. I think one of the things that saddens me the most when I, you know, listen to the stories of the survivors that we deal with and that we meet and we support, you know, is when they tell me that actually somebody weaponized the Bible and they used it to hold them, you know, in submission in a way that is not biblical, that is not, you know, ever what God intended for anybody, and and actually used it to belittle and to demean people. And that makes me, you know, terribly sad. But it it can look like so many different things, but fundamentally there's this element of control going on over people's lives where you know where they're not able to make their own choices, they're not free to live as individuals, they live at the you know behest of their partner.
SPEAKER_00So it sounds like there's a lot of power plays going on. There's a kind of a power imbalance that's being manipulated and leveraged. Is is that what what what what lies at the root of these forms of abuse?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I think you know what often often you'll hear so many different things. And particularly during lockdown, we've seen this great rise in domestic abuse, for example. And you know, and you can attribute that and you can say, well, that's because there's they're under m greater pressure, well, everyone's stuck in, and you know, and there's a part of us that goes, Well, that's true. I know my household, you know, and all living together under one roof all day, every day, has felt different and it meant tensions have been heightened. But fundamentally, when it comes to abuse of any kind, sexual abuse, domestic abuse, child abuse, whatever, it is about power. You know, I think it's one of the great brokennesses of the world, you know, ever since the fall, ever since, you know, that curse that said, you know, your desire will be for him and he shall rule over you. We've been broken. In fact, it was that that that flaw in us, and I don't know if that's quite the right word. I'm now backpicking my theology there, but it was that desire for power that led to the fall in the first place. It was this desire to be not just like God, but to be God, to be, you know, we're made in God's image and we know that God's omnipotent, he's all powerful, and yet in our humanness, in our image-bearing, we're potent, we're powerful, we have extraordinary power, and yet we want to be omnipotent, we want to control everything. And it was that that led to the fall, it was that that's led to so many of the fractures in our societies all around the world, you know, and we we battle that in ourselves day in, day out, you know, this desire to control everything around us, which we particularly feel at the moment. But I think it's that that sits at the heart of abuse, this need to have power over, to have control of, whether that's about sex or children or family or finance or or whatever it is, it's this need to feel better than, to have power over and to get our identity from that, which is so far from the humility of finding our identity in Christ. It's so far from that. And it's so far from the example of Jesus. You know, we read about in in Philippians, don't we? No, that he gave up everything and he came down to earth as a man and he humbled himself even to a cross. And, you know, that's what love looks like. That's what true relationship looks like. And so abuse is the anti, well, it, you know, it's the anti-version of that. It's the anti-love. It's that going, no, this is all about me. This is me at the center. I get what I want, I get to control the way that I want to control, and I have the power. And I think that's what sits at the heart. And it's just, you know, it's it's a brokenness that only God can fix.
SPEAKER_00Right. Yeah, it's so fascinating how Amnon wanted to do something to Tamar. It says that in verse 2 of the chapter, he doesn't want to do anything for her, he wants he wants to do something to her. And another thing that I I didn't bring out um when I sort of went through 2 Samuel 13, is that Jonadab, this terrible um advisor who's shrewd and cunning, and so very much this serpentine, crafty Satan figure. Um, his name means uh the Lord gives. And what's fascinating in the chapter is everybody's upside down in this chapter. You know, Tamar is a tall, beautiful palm tree who is kind of cut down and desecrated. Um Amnon, his name means faithful, and then he's the opposite of faithful. Jonathan means the Lord gives, but his advice is all about you're powerful, Amnon, therefore you should take. You know, why should the crown prince go without? You've got the power, therefore you've got the right to do what you want with it. And so abuses begin with that kind of abusive power and this totally anti-Christ spirit, isn't it? That Christ did not come to be served, but to serve and give his life as a ransom for many. We take our authority as license to take and to pervert and twist and manipulate and and so yeah, and so that's what you're saying is going on at the at the at the heart of uh of of abuse. What's it what's it like to be on the receiving end of that?
SPEAKER_01Wow, it's it's soul destroying because to be on the end of that abuse, to be on the end of that, you know, like you said, antichrist behaviour is to be on the end of the opposite of what love is meant to look like. And it's and it's so often held out and dangled and called love as well that I think that's carries a whole extra level of damage and because your very understanding of what love should be has been destroyed. But it does it's soul destroying. It it eats away at you to have your power, the power that you were given taken away, to have your control, your self-control taken away, to have that disregarded is a is a terribly difficult thing to come back from. It it's you know, it's very hard, it's very hard to put into words, but I hear story after story after story of women who are brokenhearted, broken spirited, because everything they were disregarded, their will was disregarded, their their safety was disregarded, their everything they they were their value was completely stripped away because they were nothing compared to their abusers' desires.
SPEAKER_00Tell me about betrayal as well, as well, because that's kind of a word that you you've used as well. Because this is this is abuse that's happening in the context of trust. And trust has been won in an innocent context and then twisted and used against the person. Um what what does that do to a person's ability to trust going forwards? And what what does that sense of betrayal do to a person?
SPEAKER_01Betrayals are any, you know, we've all experienced betrayal in some shape or form, whether, you know, that was when we were children or in, you know, in more in more, you know, deeper relationships as we've been adults. But we all know that that makes us, you know, once bitten twice shy, and it makes us very, very careful. But it it can absolutely mean that people are left scarred. People are left scarred and unable to release themselves into safe relationships in the future. We see it with children who've been abused when they're very small and they're those those early attachments, when they're broken, they can be left permanently unable to reform deep attachments with other people, and it's the same as grown-ups. You know, when somebody that you invested everything into, when somebody that you trusted betrays you, it leaves you not knowing what's true, what's real, what's safe, what's reliable, what's trustworthy ever again. And and I've seen that impact people's faith too, because suddenly that can leave you even questioning God. You know, where's God in the middle of all of this? I thought, I thought, and now I don't even trust myself to make these decisions and these choices about people in my life.
SPEAKER_00Hey, here's something you might not know. Speak Life is really active on YouTube. In fact, most of our podcasts have video versions on our YouTube channel, as well as many more resources like our groundbreaking reset series. Reset engages the meaning crisis and speaks with fascinating guests. Or you might go to YouTube to find our response videos interacting with prominent YouTubers like Russell Brand, Jordan Peterson, and Alex O'Connor. Go to youtube.com slash speaklifemedia and subscribe to our channel there. That's YouTube.com slash speaklifemedia. Thanks, and back to the show. I've heard you say that um faith can get weaponized by abusers. Um, and I guess this is another example of the betrayal. You you gain trust in one sphere and then you use it against the person. What are some of the Christian truths that get twisted in an abuse situation?
SPEAKER_01So I sometimes talk about weaponized scriptures because the truth is the greatest deceits are the ones that have got that kernel of something that's true in it. When they're taken from something that we trust, they're taken from something that we know, and then they're extrapolated in a way that isn't right. And uh so an example of that is one is what is forgiveness. Now we all know that forgiveness is ex is something that Jesus models, that he calls for in his people, and that we're all called to, and that there aren't restrictions around that, and yet so often that can get weaponized because it gets distorted. Well, you know, and instead of looking at well, what does forgiveness actually mean, it can be you say, well, you know, you're meant to forgive me, so you just need to stay. You just need to put up with this. This is just what this is, you know, you're called to forgive. And and actually that that can mess with people's head. You go, oh, well, that yes, no, I know that's right. But sure, you know, and and it becomes very difficult. And that actually what isn't put in with that is the need for repentance. What isn't put into that conversation is the fact that forgiveness is about our heart, but it doesn't necessarily mean that we stay in a dangerous situation. You know, that there's there's whole layers to this that go on, and and it just gets kept to one thing. Another one that we see uh used a lot is you know about wives submitting to their husbands. Now, again, you know, there's a there are biblical passages that talk about that, but when you take that out of context and go, you must submit to me, even when I'm beating you, even when I'm sexually abusing you, even when I'm, you know, like that that isn't what the Bible says at all. That's a different, that's something different going on, and that's misusing God's word to justify and to continue perpetrating your behaviours. And you know, the things like that, they well, they sometimes they make me quite cross, but they also make me desperately sad because to see God's word misused like that is a terrible thing.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Can you think of even like like turn the other cheek as as a posture towards an aggressor? Um I I think that needs to be taught very, very carefully. Uh whenever I'm in the Sermon on the Mount and you know, you get to that passage, um I I think you need to be aware that there might be domestic abuse situations in front of you. And and you know, if there are preachers listening in, there there might well be domestic abuse, you know, um perpetrators and sufferers sitting next to each other in the pews as as you're preaching this thing, and and so quite often I'll I'll kind of say and and look, but hang on, this is about a posture of when the aggressor comes towards you, you have two responses. You could either strike back or you could run away. Here's a third option, and it's it that there is a way of standing in truth and grace and confronting them with their own evil and saying, Ha, it didn't work. I'm I'm not the entirely defeated person you wanted me to be, and the and I'm not just gonna biff you back. Um there is a third option. Now, in a domestic abuse situation, one of the best things you can do to turn the other cheek is dial 999. Okay. And in and in that situation, you're not you're not being that defeated person, and you're not you're you're not being drawn into that violence either. But the third option doesn't mean stand there and take a beating. Um but you can you can involve the authorities.
SPEAKER_01And actually, we s yeah. Yeah, and we see examples as well of you know in the Bible of people who did you know high tail it when in the face of danger. In fact, David, you know, for all that David turned at a disaster later, you know, he served his king, King Saul, for such a long time. He stayed faithful to his king. But when the danger got no, when it became too risky, when the abuse, frankly, became too much, he he let he legged it through a window, you know, and he and he left. And he didn't, he didn't strike back, he didn't try and usurp the king. He didn't do a lot of things, but what he did do was get himself to safety. Jesus did it too. You know, there were times when the the mob was out to get him and he, you know, he went to the mountains and he it wasn't the time yet for him because that's another one that can get that's another thing that can get um you know weaponised for for perhaps want of a better word, but it it it it fits the bill, is you know, actually sometimes, you know, in our suffering we're like Jesus, you know, we need to suffer like Jesus. This is this is part of you being like Jesus, you know, subject subjecting yourself, submitting yourself to this suffering, um, which again is one that for most of us we sort of think, well, that's nonsense, you know, and yet when somebody has been listening to this for a long time, when they are with somebody who they trust who keeps who feeds them this, you know, it it begins to go in and it becomes very hard to discern the truth in the midst of it.
SPEAKER_00So, what is something that somebody can do? If if somebody's listening in, there it might be the case that even right now they're starting to think, oh hang on, you know what? I th I I think I might be in one of these situations, I think I might be on the receiving end of um of abuse. What what are the sorts of things that uh people can be doing?
SPEAKER_01There's a few things you can do, and one thing I would really urge you to do is to talk to somebody that you trust. Now, as I say that, I heard myself thinking, gosh, we might not know who you can trust anymore. But if there's somebody that you think they would listen, they wouldn't ask me a six dozen questions about why it's my fault, but they would they would listen. Maybe that's Starting point. But there's another starting point. You can go there. There's an amazing national domestic abuse helpline, which you can ring about anything 24 hours a day. It's 0808-2024-7. I'll make sure we've got that number to go in notes later on. But that's you can Google it, it's there, it's very straightforward, and they'll take you through practical steps that you can do for safety. You can go to our website, restored hyphenuk.org, and we have masses of information on there. And you can begin to think about your safety going forward because different situations are, you know, they are different by definition. But if you think actually my safety is at risk here, if my that my children's safety is at risk here, then actually it's quite good to create a bit of a safety plan. What would I do if things escalated? What would I do if I thought things were out of hand? What would I do? And you can do little things like make sure that you have, you know, your phone, your car keys and any important documentation, your purse, those things. Actually nowadays it's all on your phone, isn't it? But you know, that you've got those things somewhere where you can grab them quickly if you need to leave and you can get out. You know, think ahead. If something kicked off, if it got dangerous, which is the best way to get out of the house quickly? How would I get the kids? How would I do that? It might be something that I encourage people to do. And I'm actually on the, you know, on the receiving end of some of these texts. I've got some friends who, if they text me certain phrases, and it's, you know, are there eggs in Tesco's this week? That started during lockdown because there weren't, you know, but uh are there eggs in Tesco's? It was a perfectly legitimate question, but I knew that there were two ladies, and if they sent me that, they needed me to call the police because they it wasn't safe for them to do it, but I I could do it. So sometimes it's about having a code word with somebody else, but but but you don't have to make all those decisions in one go. But frankly, if your life is in danger, if you are in a very you know dangerous situation, then it's 999 and don't hesitate to do that. The police will respond, they will come quickly, um, and they will take you seriously. And I think I think we doubt that that's true sometimes, but they really will.
SPEAKER_00Okay, so we've thought about um if you want to um make known the abuse that's happening to you, what if you're the person who is confided in? Um how do you need to respond in that situation?
SPEAKER_01Okay, so one of the most important things that you can do is believe somebody because uh not believing somebody, questioning them, and it can be really easy to question them. It can be really easy to go, oh gosh, that sounds terrible, really. You know, it can be as simple as that, um, but actually that the minute you question somebody, you're at you're compounding really what they've already experienced. You're you're you're doubting their their truth, you're doubting their value, you're you're saying your word actually isn't that valuable. And so believing them is really important. Actually, trying to minimize the depth of your response is quite good as well, because sometimes we might be just horrified, um, but showing the horror isn't helpful because this isn't fundamentally, this isn't about you at this point. You can express your horror privately somewhere else later, but this person just needs you to listen first and foremost. That's one of the most important things. We talk about four R's at restored. The first one's to be recognized as a problem in your, you know, in the Christian community in your church. Um second one is to respond by believing and by listening and by doing whatever you can to support. Um the third one then is to refer because the truth is most of us aren't experts at this. We most of us do not know what to do next. We haven't got the solution. We, you know, we don't know all the telephone numbers off our off our hand and the right next steps. But actually, what we can do is help them find help this person find find those people who do, you know, put them in touch with local services, help them to contact the domestic abuse helpline, help them find our website if that feels appropriate, you know. But we can help them to do that and refer them on to people who are expert. That actually is really important. Um, and then fourthly, we'd say record. So if you have, you know, someone's d disclosed this kind of information to you, it is very helpful often to just jot down some of the things they've said, the date, the time, just some information. So that should it ever be helpful, you know, you can call on that and say, actually, you know, I do remember when they spoke to me and I wrote down what they said, and that might be you know, might never be necessary, but it might be really useful. So those are the you know, four ways you can do that to be really good.
SPEAKER_00Okay, so recognize the problem, um, respond in the right way, including believing um them, refer them to others and record what's what's happened. Um that's that's very helpful. And it and it flags up that we need to have procedures and processes in place um before the you know b before people confide in us. And I just wonder, in your experience, um how does the church fare on safeguarding? Where where where are we where are we lacking when it comes to safeguarding guidelines?
SPEAKER_01Do you know? I think the church has got a lot better at safeguarding generally over the last decade or so as you know, it's so many statutes have come into place that actually we're not really allowed to operate without a safeguarding policy. Um but it tends to be that they're very good about children, because that's the bit that we legally are required to have in place. You know, we there's a legal responsibility to report abuse of children or to report concerns, to report, you know, anything really. Um and yet when it comes to adults, it's all a lot more fuzzy. And so the policies around that are often fuzzy too. And so what what we see as churches that often just, you know, that it's not intentional, they're not trying to be bad, but they're just not prepared. They haven't thought ahead to what would we do if something like this came up. There isn't a policy in place, there aren't people who've been trained to respond well and to support somebody through the aftermath of all of this. And so, you know, I think there's there's this discrepancy really. Um, you know, because adults, we don't adults have much more that they need to be able to make their own choices, so we don't make their choices on their behalf unless they're you know there's very good reasons not to. Um, but actually that it's often a bit of a you know, the gap missing in safeguarding for churches.
SPEAKER_00So um, how can restored help? Um, what what are some of the things that you offer to help us to be better responders?
SPEAKER_01Well, we are really passionate about the church being part of the solution to the problems that we see in the world. You know, so often we see in the news that that you know, we see the church being part of the problem in the news because it's always those stories, isn't it, that hit the headlines. We don't hear the stories about the amazing churches doing incredible work, supporting survivors and ending abuse, and and those churches exist, um, but we want to see more of those churches and to replicate some of that good work. And in order to do that, we've we do a number of number of things to be able to equip the church. One uh resource that we've got ready, you know, any you know, all the time is this uh church pack, um, which is a fantastic resource for anybody who just wants to go in and find out more, to think a bit about some of the theology, who wants to have a bit of a, you know, we've got flow charts, how to risk, you know, that you could take and nick and put in your safeguarding policy, you know, how to respond if somebody discloses abuse, you know, how to respond, how to respond to perpetrators, because that's a whole other ball game that is often mishandled. And um, you know, so that's all there. And then we do some online training now, obviously, nothing's in person anymore. And we've got two courses that I think are excellent. One's very entry-level, it's just five afternoons in a row on a Monday afternoon, usually, um, about four o'clock in the afternoon, cup of tea, sit down, join in, um, and it's just an entry level into domestic abuse and understanding how the church can respond. Um and then we're just starting a new foundation course, um, which we've taken online, and it's normally a day, but we've test well we're we're trialling different ways of doing it. But in on the first and second of March, we've split it into two mornings so people don't get too zoomed out. Um so the first and the second, um, and that will be a deeper look and a and a more practical how can we put this into place in our church? How can we really think about how we can best support survivors and best change actually the culture in our church and challenge the misuse of power, power where it exists, and and and bring raise this conversation so that it's not taboo, it's not a taboo subject, we know in our church. Um but those are so you can book up to those at the moment, actually, if those are the things that you'd be interested in.
SPEAKER_00Uh Becca, you mentioned in there about we don't deal well with the perpetrator. Uh, what did you mean by that?
SPEAKER_01You know, I think it's something that is very difficult for us. You know, I think supporting a survivor, once we've accepted that someone's a survivor, we can be good sometimes at rallying around them, although not always. But there's something in us as Christians, completely correctly, that we're desperate to see transformation in people. We want to see people redeemed, we want to see them come through, and we want it so much sometimes that we believe we've seen it when it's not really there. You know, there's something when you get to know some of these stories, when you get to work with abusers, you begin to realise just how clever they are at telling you what you want to hear. And so I have heard so many stories of women who've ended up feeling completely sidelined in their church because the person who'd abused them cried, said sorry, said all the right things in front of the person, the people that they wanted to impress. Um, and so they they kept their positions of power, they were kept at the centre of everything. They were fundamentally championed because of their great story and turnaround. And actually, behind closed doors, nothing had changed. Nothing was different. And sometimes women have been encouraged to stay in dangerous situations because the abuse has been able to manipulate the story to make it look like now, no, that was good, that was that wasn't good, that was terrible, but I'm it's it's a different story now, and it's just not true. And I think we need the wisdom of Solomon in dealing with this, and it's sometimes about recognizing actually this needs specialist support as well. This is this is bigger than us. Um, and actually we need to we need to refer perpetrators to perpetrator causes, just as we'd refer survivors to you know, specialist support to help them really get that help and then walk alongside them on that journey. Walk alongside them, hold them accountable, but really accountable. You know, ask the person they've been abusing. Can you see change? You know, ask other people like this is where you just you don't just accept the first thing that you hear. You need to dig deeper, you need to hold an element of cynicism as you listen and uh and just be aware so that you're so that we are being just and we are being fair, and fundamentally we are helping there to be real transformation, not just surface level.
SPEAKER_00Right, right. I mean, there is in that second Corinthians um passage about the difference between worldly regret and actual godly repentance. Um and you think we can we can be suckers for the worldly regrets because we because we we want we love the redemption story.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, um yeah, of course we do. It's uh it's what it's all about, but we have to be careful that there's that real repentance going on underneath.
SPEAKER_00Yes, yes, yeah, it's very wise. Um Becca, just final question. Um, why do you do what you do?
SPEAKER_01Oh, that's a good question. I do it for so many reasons, but fundamentally because I do believe in the church. I think the church is God's great idea to help the world discover Jesus and to bring light, his light, into the world and into the darkness. And I long to see a church that does that better and better and better. And so we exist for that. And I and and the other reason is because I am thoroughly and totally and utterly convinced that God's heart is for the oppressed and God's heart is for those who have been abused, and that actually he calls us to speak up and to do something. There's a story that doesn't often get preached in Judges chapter 19 of a woman who is horrifically abused. She's neglected and rejected by her husband, she's abused by a gang of men, and she's you know, her body is literally cut into pieces by the end. But the the final verse of that chapter is the call of God's people. They they kind of come together in response to what's happened, and they say, Can you imagine that such a thing has happened in God's kingdom? Essentially, is what they say. And they say, We must speak up and we must do something. And that story and that verse has called out to me over the last few years and is this challenge that just keeps me going. You know, just imagine that this could happen in our church, just imagine that this can be going on. You must speak up and you must do something. And fundamentally, that's where I do what I do.
SPEAKER_00That's amazing. That's amazing. Um because of a love for Jesus, a love for his church and shining his light into those dark places. And uh yeah, I really hope that people uh grab a hold of uh some of those resources, Becca, and that we all uh do a better job at uh recognizing um the problem that is there and responding in a Christ-like way. Uh Becca Leg, thank you so much for joining us.
SPEAKER_01Thank you.
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