Hello and welcome to the Speak Life Podcast. My name is Glenn Scrivener. Thanks so much for joining us. Today we have Lori Ann Thompson giving us an exclusive interview to tell her story in her words. You might know Lori Ann Thompson as the most prominent survivor of Ravi Zacharias's abuse, but listen in today and get to know the real Lori Ann. She speaks with wisdom, grace, gravity, and hope about the dynamics of abuse, the experience of betrayal, the blindness of institutions, the horror of cover-ups, and the pathway to healing. It is a phenomenal hour, but we must, of course, offer a trigger warning. We delve into some dark areas, but we do so to shine light, to expose evil and to show the way through. I learned so much from this conversation, and I hope you do too. Please do subscribe to our podcast because we have more on these topics, including the talk that we referenced in this podcast, my sermon on 2 Samuel chapter 13. We also have an interview with RZIM insider Sam Albury. We also have Dr. Diane Langberg coming up, speaking about what churches can do in response to abuse and how healing can occur. You won't want to miss those episodes, so do hit subscribe on your favorite podcatcher. But without further ado, here is my interview with Laurie Ann Thompson. Lori Ann, why don't you introduce yourself to us in the way that you would most like to be known?
SPEAKER_02Hmm. Well, I really appreciate you having me here, Glenn, and and quite frankly, I didn't wish to be known. But given that I am known, I I suppose that I would I would simply ask that I would be known as the sort of complex person that I am. I have somebody with a background of poly-victimization from a really early age, and I've done a lot of hard work uh to overcome that victimization, and it spilled well into my adulthood, from childhood, well into my adulthood. And I think some of the people that I think are the bravest people in the world are the ones who have a spirit of overcoming. And um I think that what I would not like to be known for is the last person that preyed upon me.
SPEAKER_00Yes. And I what I hope from this interview will be um that we get some first-person narrative from you, that we check in on you, figure out how you're doing and how you are doing the way that you're doing, um, and also get to understand um the the playbook of abuse. Um because what of one of my burdens is is to feel like what has happened with Ravi Zacharias is is not just the example of one bad apple and it's over, but that's um there is uh an ongoing dynamic to explore um because we need to be vigilant and um we need to shine light into dark areas and we need to provide help and healing um for many who continue to be victimized. Um so let me ask you first of all, why why do you want to do this interview?
SPEAKER_02That's a really good question. I don't particularly want to do interviews, but I um I haven't sort of read or listened to most of uh most of what the vast majority of people have written about my situation. There are several reasons for that. I've had to live it. So uh so therefore reading other people's narrative about it is really overwhelming. Um it takes a lot of time, energy to and uh to contribute to the conversation in a really careful way because I have a non-disclosure agreement. Um and for the most part, this issue has eaten up most of my waking hours since it happened. Um but I do Brad and I did listen to your talk on Tamar, and I was really moved, as was he. Um it was a it was a gut punch in in the best possible way uh that somebody you you took scripture and you made it come alive and you made it very real. I'm assuming you don't have a lot of background in terms of um victimology and and predation. Nevertheless, you took scripture and you made it really, really succinct and tight. Um and I I think that one of the things that's helped me a great deal is listening to other people's stories and how they overcame and how they recovered and how they sort of went forth and brought forth life after death. Uh, you know, how they lived a resurrected life after a crushing crucifixion of abuse. Um and so I feel obligated to say to somebody, here's how it is, here's how we got through this, and here's where we're going from there. And I really hope that that that plants seeds of hope and benevolence uh as far as it can go. So thank you for interviewing me. I I appreciate it.
SPEAKER_00Well, I'm just yeah, very, very humbled that you would uh you would ask to come on to on onto this channel and and and talk about it. When I when I spoke about um Tamar, it's from from 2 Samuel chapter 13, um in the Old Testament for for those um unfamiliar, and what really struck me about the way she was abused by a whole bunch of different people was one aspect, um well there were there were so many aspects, but one was the way in which she was raped by her half-brother. And there is there is one line that uh is a particular gut punch where he says, Lie with me, my sister. And th that there is the bringing together of an innocent attachment, my sister, and then instantly sexualized in this traumatic way. Lie with me, my sister. And when I read your victim impact statement, it seemed to me like um that there was so much about that that was that was happening, that there was a connection that was being fostered. There was a spiritual father figure who was feeding into you and and building a an innocent kind of an attachment. Um and then the sexualization. Um can you can you talk to us a little bit about how that developed and how that felt?
SPEAKER_02Well, I think that um, you know, I kind of go back to I want to talk in two levels. One one just what I how I've come to understand victimology and predation academically, and um and that will help to sort of understand my own personal journey or help the the listeners to understand my own personal journey. Um very early in life, uh you know, from birth to sort of 18 months of age, attachments are formed. So your your primary caregiver is the person who you who you fashion your sort of your key uh key attachment to. And because I had an early traumatic and protractedly traumatic uh childhood life, um I never really form formulated uh strong attachments to to anybody. So uh my mother uh and my father split up when I was really young, and um and he he abducted us actually from her. He was uh a sexual predator and he was a domestic abuser, alcoholic, violent. He was everything you would think a predator would be. Um and as a consequence, I also so therefore I was ripped away from my mother who would have theoretically been my key attachment figure, although I don't remember her. And so uh one of the things that helped me to survive was I was compliant, I was quiet. Um being quiet in abusive situations is really helpful because you don't get the tar kicked out of you, right? Uh you can kind of fly under the radar. And uh I was somebody who was super compliant, um, and that helped me a lot. I was also bright, so I could, you know, be hypervigilant and keep myself safe in these really unsafe situations, or at least that was my perception, is that I could keep myself safe. But there was a gigantic wound where a parental figure should be, yeah. And so throughout the course of my lifespan, um, because of those primary attachments were truncated, I was really vulnerable to parental type of figures. Um, Zacharias certainly wasn't the first person to prey upon me in from along parental lines, but he he was definitely the last. And so the vast majority of victims, myself notwithstanding, have some manner of vulnerability. Um, and vulnerability to be vulnerable is to be human. We think, oh, you must be broke if you know I was very broke and and to no fault of my own. But it but to be vulnerable is is simply to be human. And and the trouble with predators is that they they prey on really deeply human needs. The need to belong, the need to be known, the need to be celebrated, the need to be special to somebody, the need to be a daughter or a son, or to be be thought honorable by somebody who's honorable. Um, you know, I at this period of my life I didn't have financial um vulnerabilities, but I had a bunch of identity vulnerabilities. Um when you grow up, when your personhood is formed and fashioned in a predatory environment, that personhood is deformed. And and I did the best that I could with the stuff that I had, which was absolutely nothing. Um, you know, school helped me, but uh, but there were big holes in my personhood, and uh and I needed parental mirroring to fill that. And that's something that predators will do, is that they'll say, you know, they'll groom you and groom your identity and gain your trust over the over a protracted period of time. And then what will happen is that they will sexualize the relationship. What should be a sacred relationship between a religious professional and a religious seeker that should be sacred, it's a fiduciary duty, there's there's all manner of sacred trust there, and um, and most people would have every reason to to trust Zacharias or any other religious professional. There, you know, we we go into a doctor's office, and the doc the doctor has the role of caring for your physical body, and so the doctor may hand you a garment and say, disrobe. And without question, what do we do? We just we disrobe, we take off all of our clothing and we put on the medical garment, and then we lie down and we are assessed based on the the fiduciary duty. That's what happens in in a religious setting where the religious professional says, here, here's a garment, put this on, disrobe, let us look at your naked soul. And so when it when a cleric will sexualizes that relationship, it is catastrophically traumatic. Um, but it but unfortunately, and I'm saying a lot in a short period of time, because I have a lot to say, unfortunately, what happens is in the in the patient doctor role, uh, we would look at the professional and go, oh my gosh, I can't believe you did that. You abused your office. But when we look at Christendom, does and it's not just Christendom, it's it's across faith platforms, look at um, you know, the the victim who is really the religious seeker and says, Oh my gosh, I can't believe you buried your naked soul. And then in time you buried your naked body. But but that's not how that starts. You know, no parishioner goes into a pastor's office and and drops their garments. They go bearing their soul, and then the cleric sexualizes the relationship. So it starts with vulnerability and it ends with vulnerability, and and through the course of that time is a great deal of deception. And the problem is that the cleric is the deceiver and the victim is the deceived.
SPEAKER_00And then what does it what does it feel like when that trust is betrayed and the you know the mask slips and you you see that instead of them being the spiritual figure who's healing you, that they're actually the one harming you. How does that feel?
SPEAKER_02A religious professional and a religious seeker engage in what I would consider a high trust relationship. Okay. So it it might be a high trust private relationship, sorry, one-on-one in an office. It could be this platform, you have a high trust with the people who listen to you. That's that's the office that you're in. Um and Zecharias held a global platform of high trust. And um when when that trust is preached and it's a high trust relationship, it's a catastrophic what's called betrayal trauma. And when um when that kind of betrayal trauma happens, several things happen. One, you can't believe the unbelievable is happening. So over the course of a period of time, that religious professional will groom their victim, myself notwithstanding, and gain gain the right of access, and and you divulge deeply personal um pains, sorrows, sins, hopes, dreams, um, flaws. You know, that that's supposed to be the the place to share those things and to seek God or the Almighty as you understand him. And it's it's catastrophic when when uh a cleric will sexualize traumatically a relationship. It it is a deep and profound betrayal trauma. And what happens is that in many cases you can hardly believe what's happening yourself as the victim, and and not only what's happening, but also to whom it's happening with. And it uh many, many people, myself as well, become suicidal because uh it it is you are absolutely locked into secrecy. Um and you can see why. I mean, what happened with with me uh post-discure was almost worse than than the abuse to start with.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Yeah, let's let's think about that a a little bit. Uh for instance, um you you said in your victim impact statement that you you tried to tell a Christian counselor what was happening to you, and then you you wrote, he told me not to tell anyone, especially not my husband, that he could see Azed's draw to me, and that if anyone ever found out the kingdom of God would be irreparably damaged. Uh that that that is a betrayal upon a betrayal, isn't it?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, because it's not just the interpersonal betrayal between you between religious professional and religious seeker. It's not just that now. It's the it's not only your faith community, it's the global faith community. So so if if an abuse survivor um discloses sexual abuse, not only will be his little kingdom will be harmed, but that the greater kingdom of God will be harmed. And as a matter of fact, you know, when threats that that that uh offending, sexually offending individuals make to their victims, in in many cases, overwhelmingly, those things come true. You know, there is damage to the kingdom of God when when sexual offenders are exposed, but there's more damage to the kingdom of God when they're not. It's a very heavy weight. Uh uh when sexual offending happens inside of a family, uh what be it the family of God or the nuclear family, it in general it causes a massive implosion of the family unit. And it and it should, because it's dysfunctional. Does that make sense?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, no, absolutely. And uh you you tweeted out quite recently about um shining light into dark places. Um you know, we we we have an idea that that's just a lovely image of the warm, soft glow, and people will be attracted to the light. Um, but that's that that is not what happens when the light is shot on this kind of darkness, is it?
SPEAKER_02No, I remember um some of the the literature um that helped me the most to get through this. Uh I felt ashamed that it helped me, but um it did, uh, was literature from the Holocaust. And there was this, there was this woman who remained alive in one of the cabins in in Germany where herself and her peers were kept, and everybody else in the cabin was dead except for her. And so when when they were rescued, when when rescue finally came came, um the door was flung open. And I remember that, remember reading this, and she was so disoriented. She couldn't tell if it was her offenders, or she couldn't tell if it was rescuers, and she couldn't even stand up straight, you know, she couldn't see straight, she was terribly disoriented. Meanwhile, all these corpses were were around her. And you know, in in situations when abuse is elucidated, you know, you would think the victim would be like, hallelujah, I'm not I'm not being abused anymore. But in many cases, uh Glen Glenn, it is profoundly disorienting. I found it to be profoundly disorienting because it takes a long time. Not only, how did I get here, um, but how do I get out of here? How do I even stand up in the midst of all these corpses and move on?
unknownRight.
SPEAKER_02Um, and it that's just the victim. And then there's a whole bunch of other people who are, you know, you had said in your Tamar video, it takes a nexus of evil. And then, you know, overwhelmingly, in this situation, I've observed people go, Oh, I didn't know. Uh I I couldn't have known. Or, and some people really didn't know, and some people really did. Or I couldn't possibly be held accountable for somebody else's behavior, except you were supposed to be accountable for somebody else's behavior. You know, there's an awful lot of scurrying going on, an awful lot of uh shifting of the narrative and responsibility and a lack of owning responsibility when you should have been an overseer.
SPEAKER_00Right. You mentioned there about the light comes on and people want to scurry into the darkness. We we you know we we cannot bear very much reality, us human beings, and and especially when that reality i is as as dark as we're discussing here. Um tell me about betrayal blindness. It's a it's a phrase that um I'm only beginning to to learn about, but it's making so much sense of why it is that we know about something, but we don't want to know about something, and therefore we don't know about something. Explain to me what what is betrayal blindness.
SPEAKER_02Betrayal blindness is based on the work of Dr. Jennifer Fried from the University of Oregon in in the United States. And her work is groundbreaking because she she theorized something called betrayal betrayal trauma theory. And betrayal trauma theory posits rightly and has been well researched and elucidated, that in high trust relationships that go back to uh attachment, um the higher degree of trust that you have in somebody, the the less likely it is that you will see betrayal in your midst. Dr. Freid posits and rightly posits that human beings have betrayal, high detection of betrayal. Like we are the right response to betrayal is hey, how how could you do that? Like, and there would be a breach in relationship until the betrayer can can mend the relationship. So for some reason, in high trust relationships, largely due to the attachment that people have with either the the offender, offending individual, or the offending institution, the less likely they are to be able to detect or see betrayal in their midst. Does that make sense?
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. So it you can have betrayal blindness not just towards an individual, you can have betrayal blindness towards an institution. And part of why there's so much betrayal blindness in in church and parachurch organizations is because they represent the Almighty. Um and and what do we teach in Christendom other than to trust and obey?
SPEAKER_00Right. And then at a at an organizational level, um, it becomes a whole structure that is invested in not seeing something that will bring down the great leader. Because we we've invested so much in the leader, in the platform, in in the ego, in the narcissism, in the in the gloss, in the whitewash, as Jesus would put it in in Matthew 23. Um we're very invested in not seeing the the tomb and the bones that that kind of lie beneath. Um what's what's been your experience of of being on on the wrong end of that?
unknownNo. Wow.
SPEAKER_02Um to to preface that, it doesn't it's not all bad. You know, we want our institutions to do the right thing. We want to believe that individuals and institutions are are for us, that they resem represent our our uh they they share the same worldview, not only in theory, but also in in praxis and in practical uh in the walking out of that. So, you know, there has to be some level of trust in society, otherwise society will fall apart. That and attachment can just can be more than relationship. It can be financial attachment, it can be identity. Uh you if you are not who you say you are, then you know I sold my house, my car, I moved uh continents to come and work at this institute. I, you know, people have all manner of reasons. Uh co authoring books, uh and in many cases the the individual that these situations surround is a very charismatic. Person who draws people to themselves. And there are many good features about most of these individuals. Unfortunately, it's not all, you know, these people also lead a double life. When an institution has, institutions can do what individuals also do. So institutions can be blind to the betrayal in their midst for the same reasons as what individuals can. And we can also minimize, explain away, deny, you know, what we see. And invariably, people who are whistleblowers are not cherished in those situations. In fact, they're, you know, they're they're called disloyal and a variety of other things. And to when a victim is experiences the end of the whip, so to speak, it's pretty violent when you try to disclose against somebody with enormous amounts of power. I remember that my my brother said uh because I had discussed this with him way back when it first happened, and he said, you know, if you're gonna take on these people, you need to have your boots strapped up, you know, or you're gonna get stomped. And uh I think I just think I had no idea what I was actually dealing with. Um and they're very, very powerful. Uh, and um it was it was pretty caustic. The when somebody discloses about somebody that that people don't want to hear uh about their offending, one of the things that happens is called darvo. So it's deny, they deny the allegations exist, attack, they attack the person who disclosed, and then they reverse the the victim and offender. So the person who is actually the victim becomes the offender, and the actual offender then also some somehow becomes the victim in the situation. And that's what happened here, and it it in fact happens so frequently that it's a phenomenon, also elucidated by Dr. Jennifer Fryde and her colleagues.
SPEAKER_00And and and this was happening um to you in a in a way that's kind of unique um in in this situation. I I think you know, for myself, sort of September 2020 was was really the first time that I was really facing um what what I thought was, oh, okay, this is a really serious situation. And for some people it's been as late as sort of February um 2021. And so many of people so many people I've seen online have said, oh gosh, why did nobody say anything? Um but Lori Ann Thompson was saying a lot um back in 2016-2017. Um what was the what was the cost to to you and Brad at the time?
SPEAKER_02Long before we said anything publicly, we imploded privately. Um you are a child and you're abused, overwhelmingly, the vast majority of people can say, Oh well, you you didn't want that to happen and you had no power in that situation. Um when you're abused as an adult and and statistically four times as many adults are abused by clerics than children. So we do have a problem. Um then invariably at the sort of the 18 mark, 18 years of age, people go, Well, you you must have consented. We have no cognitive framework to, or we have we're s we're still building cognitive framework to understand abuse of power, and how uh how a cleric congregant, a religious professional, religious seeker relationship is not consensual because of the power dynamic. Um so my my husband assumed that I had an affair, which was just wrong, catastrophically wrong, but he he believed that narrative for a long time, and nothing I could say would make any difference. Um so we had a lot of sleepless nights. Um and and he is he's somebody who loves me very much, I mean, and I love him very much. And so I have a great deal of tolerance for people who don't understand and don't get it, because the person I love the most didn't understand and didn't get it for a really long period of time. So when you ask how do we survive, like we almost didn't. Um we took turns uh struggling with suicidality, and uh and it took a long time to become safe and stable. In some cases, you know, it was a minute at a time, and then in other cases, you know, like okay, I can do this hour or this afternoon, or oh, we got through this day without it being traumatic. And then eventually, you know, those days collected together to be a week where we could eat, sleep, move, be in the same room. Um many times it was one step forward and three steps back, and it was an incredibly painful time. Eventually we we kept the ground that we gained, and slowly, ever so slowly, it took about a year and a half, um, we were able to move forward. Uh, but it was it was a catastrophic period of time. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And then what what is what is it like when the tide starts to turn and there start to be um more and more allegations coming forward, and then September happens, and then um Miller and Martin say around Christmas time this is much more serious than that, even, and then in February out out comes the report. Well um yeah, how how how is it to be feeling like a a voice crying in the wilderness um to to suddenly realizing you're you're part of a chorus of of many others?
SPEAKER_02Well, in a very short period of time I realized that when this first happened to me that that there was no way I was the only one. So statistically speaking, that would not have been possible. But when I searched online, I you know, I didn't know anybody in in Zacharias's circles, so I couldn't ask anybody uh had had that this happened to anybody else. But online there was no information about him. So so far as I understood, I was the only one. And that's a pretty lonely place to be. Uh, it wasn't until after he he died that I found out that there was at least one other victim who had disclosed to Steve Boffman. Steve Boffman um sent me a message and said, Oh, I I I heard of this victim, it had to do with massage parlors. You know, I think he thought it was just false. And and I said, uh, no, I don't think so. I mean, I I couldn't know for sure, but there's no reason for somebody to fabricate that information. And overwhelmingly, people don't fabricate this information. So I urged him to believe her, and then you know, he kind of ran run with that. I still haven't been in contact with with those victims. Um it may surprise you that uh, you know, I was I would it doesn't won't this won't surprise you. I was born into a home of a sex offender who repeatedly raped my siblings um and sexually offended until he died. He served nine months in prison um his whole life. So I mean he was one of the sort of top three percent who ever get to prison. So there is no justice or very little justice in these situations. So so I'm kind of used to not getting justice. And when um when Zacharias died, I mean, I was grieved for for his family, and also grieved that that he wouldn't able ever answer to to these allegations. Um but in some ways I had closed up that chapter. I had just finished my degree, uh, my my master's degree, and and I thought, okay, well, this is this is just, and I'm going to take an unjust situation, and I'm just going to be what I wish I had gotten. I will listen to people, I will be just, I will promote peace, I will be shalom, I will imbibe Christ as I understand him, and that's just gonna have to be enough because there isn't going to be anything else. Uh, so when all of this exploded, I was as bewildered as everybody else. Um, how has it been? It's been really overwhelming. Um it's been it's been really overwhelming. I one thing I'm deeply grateful for is that these other women who have disclosed their stories didn't have to go through what I went through. Um, so there is there is some degree of uh okay, these women are protected, you know, their marriages are intact, their you know, their identities are intact, they can enjoy an anonymity that I can't. And um, as somebody who's really maternal and protective by nature, um that means a lot to me.
SPEAKER_00Hello, me again. Uh, just letting you know about our Facebook page, which has nearly 20,000 likes. If you're on Facebook, why not join our happy band and you'll get resources that you can't get any other way. Resources like reading between the lines, our daily video devotionals that take you through the Bible phrase by phrase. Get those and many more pieces of exclusive content by going to Facebook.com slash speaklifeuk. That's facebook.com slash speaklifeuk. Uh you've mentioned Steve Boffman there. Uh, we're gonna have him on the channel soon as well. One of one of the things that's very striking about what he has said is um he bears no animosity to the Christian community, but he is constantly saying, you know, how can you be as tolerant of leaders who, you know, inflate their credentials and and lie and deceive? Um how can you be as tolerant of of sort of toxic structures as as you are? And I I think that there's a degree to which that that shoe fits the Christian community. Um tell tell me about obviously um you know Christendom does not have the mon uh the the monopoly on sexual predators, but there are features of the Christian community that mean um sexual predators can hide perhaps a bit better. What what are some of the features of the Christian community that makes it difficult to spot such abuse and respond well to it?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, Boffman has a good critique, but he makes it um he one of my many beefs with Boffman, who has endeared himself to me. Uh but one of my beefs with him is that he has a tendency to make he picks out the incongruence between our our praxis and our and our the and our actual practice. And um and he's right to do that, uh except that it's not unique to Christendom. So, you know, uh there are some basic assumptions that create uh a predatory play field for people who choose to do that kind of thing. Um, one is that we are naive about about predation as a whole, uh, that we assign our we assign our own moral compass uh to other individuals. So, you know, you would never try to coerce somebody into uh illicit sexual activity and abuse your office to do so. So therefore you can't imagine why anybody else would do that. Uh, we have this sense of naive trust in that the the body of Christ used to be a family, right? We talk about it as a family, the um there's father God, and we are brother and sister, and so there's this sense in which if you are part of our community, there's an automatic cultural and naivety in that you know we share the same, uh we we operate off the same scripture, we share this share the same set of values, and that engenders trust whereas trust should not be. It just should not be. Um, another thing is that we uh Christendom has done a really bad job of um elucidating the difference between sexual abuse and sexual sin, and they are categorically not the same thing. To be sure, sexual abuse is sexual sin, but it is so much more than sexual sin, it's it's it's cat it's quite catastrophic. And so one of the things that's outraged me the most is watching people go, oh well, you know, I've I've struggled with pornography, and you know, maybe I had an affair. I mean, you you see men, you know, these these clerics saying I could be, you know, the next fallen individual. So in this case it was Zacharias. And that's terrifying. That's actually terrifying that that cleric, that that's cleric's response to to this situation, that they that they could be the next, because uh th that shows a gross misunderstanding of sexual predation and sexual abuse, and it conflates it with sexual sin where the two just don't equate to each other.
SPEAKER_00Can you tease out some of that difference between you know sexual sin? Because it it's just so much in the water, isn't it? That's you know, sin is sin and we're all just a heartbeat away from this and you know which which as you say is is ridiculous when you come to you know everyone's just a heartbeat away from you know purchasing a massage parlor and trafficking women for sex, you know. But but the fact that such things can be said just goes to show that that that that that belief goes very, very deep in the Christian community. Help help us with that. What why why is this sexual predation so different?
SPEAKER_02I am not a theologian, but I I have studied abuse extensively at an academic level, and and unfortunately at a at a personal level. So I can tell you what I think, and a theologian might say something else. So I would say that um a sexual predator uh will target individuals. So they might say, I really like, for instance, uh a certain type or a certain age category. And um they will target that individual and they will seek out weaknesses, they'll they'll look for a vulnerability, they'll test the waters, they may lure and groom with gifts, um invitations, uh special uh types of opportunities. Um they they will orchestrate, literally, they will orchestrate uh an arena where they can get the the victim alone and where they can uh engender trust with the victim, where they can ingratiate themselves to the victim. And here's the difference between uh sexual predation and sexual sin. The victim has no idea. They have no idea, and it's a power differential. So in an affair type situation, uh two parties are aware that they're collaborating together to uh culminate an extramarital or an ek uh an outside of premarital arrangement, okay? And it's a power equal relationship. In an abuse, it's not a power-equal relationship, and the victim has no bloody idea what's going on. And so they're two radically, I mean, radically different things. You you think uh the the victim has the whole reason that it's abuse is because it's a trust high trust relationship, and one that isn't is is sexualized and that's traumatic. In an affair, people are not they're they're equal partnered and they're moving in the same direction. Does that make sense?
SPEAKER_00It makes a lot of sense. It makes a lot of sense. Thank you for that. I think I think that's a a very helpful sidebar just just because um yeah, these these kind of ideas are just in the water. What else is it about um the church and and Christian beliefs that's um that can make it more difficult to spot a predator and and to respond correctly?
SPEAKER_02Well, we we are woefully uh we were woefully misinformed or uninformed or underinformed about the nature of predation. Um so the vast majority of men are not sexual predators. You know, many men and many women may engage in sexual sin, but overwhelmingly they're they're not sexual predators, serial sexual predators, in that they're using their power to prey upon more vulnerable people. Um and so we need to have a robust understanding that predators are everywhere. Uh, you know, Anna Salter says in some of her books, she's a psychologist who studies sex offenders, that there's one for the US, there's one predator for sexual predator per square mile.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that's a stupid way of putting it, isn't it? Yeah.
SPEAKER_02It is. And so and and the sexual predator needs to have people to prey on. So in general, they're you know, in in Christendom, they will be the the individual who warms and cozies up to either women or in some cases adult men, um, and and children of either gender, and just tries to seek to establish relationship with them, um, tries to get them alone. And in many cases, they prey on people who need relationship and for whom, say for a special trip or an uh invitation to a ministry event or uh a sleepover at the cleric's house or a drive home in the cleric's car. And when I say cleric, I'm not speaking exclusively about pastors, I'm speaking about religious professionals. Um, you know, and there's a naivety that the people are just so glad that the cleric is is paying attention to somebody who needs being paid attention to, right?
unknownRight.
SPEAKER_02That somebody honorable, invariable invariably victims feel dishonored in some way, shape, or form. And so somebody honorable is paying you honor, it's and all the while with nefarious intent.
SPEAKER_00Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And I've heard you say as well that the you know we're we're a sucker for a redemption story as well. Yes. So that when a when a predator is caught, um a a few tears and oh, there's there's repentance and yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Uh Christians yeah, we believe in the doctrine of like of forgiveness of sin and and redemption, and all things being made new, and the old is passed away, and we're a new creation in Christ. And and all of those are used against us. And and that shows right, right.
SPEAKER_00So paint paint a different picture now. Is uh how can churches be places of um safety and places of of healing?
SPEAKER_02Boy, we have some work to do. Um abuse happens in hierarchical churches like the Catholic Church, and it happens in churches that are independent and don't have anybody accountability to anybody. In fact, you know, there's it's it's across the spectrum. So, you know, in order for the body of Christ to become a safe space, uh pastors actually need to be pastors and not uh, you know, entertainers. They need to be shepherds and caring for their sheep. Uh, I really strongly believe that they need to preach on wolves instead of being wolves. The vast majority of shepherds are not wolves, but neither do they they pay any mind to teaching about wolves. There's a lot of division in the church, so you know, there's not nearly enough collaboration in the body of Christ to communicate on these issues. There's so much shame around sex and sexuality in Christendom that needs to be elucidated as well, um, because that's one of the things that creates a fodder for sexual abuse. Um, you know, I've I've seen online people say, oh, well, ministers are so burnt out and we need to be caring for our clerics. Uh, you know, it a burnt-out minister is is not a minister who's going to go pray on his flock, but a burnt-out minister is not being, you know, not being cared for. Um and I think that that, you know, in scripture it says that our people perish for lack of knowledge. And that is just so accurate that we need to be doing these sorts of things. This is a this is a way of disseminating knowledge and pulling uh pulling in experts to share with us how do we how do we protect ourselves? Some people don't even know that they need to protect themselves. I certainly did not uh understand that self-protection was required. Um and then ultimately I think that you know what is the point of the local church? Can you tell me that?
SPEAKER_00To be the body of Christ, that is to be united in Jesus as family. Um to worship Jesus, to to love as Christ loved, and to shine with his light into the world. I don't know.
SPEAKER_02Right. So so then I would submit that an awful lot of churches are actually not doing that. That when sexual abuse disclosures come, that they they foist out the vulnerable, half-beaten, half-eaten, slaughtered sheep to the side, and then they protect the institution and and the wolf. That needs to be tossed out on its head. And some churches are doing a s a brilliant job of that. They really are. Um and that they're understanding that the the goodness that is in them is what makes them blind, not the wickedness. Um so I I think we have a ways to go, but this is part of it.
SPEAKER_00I noticed in your in your victim impact um statement, you you used the word Christendom, and you've used it you know in this in this interview as well. Um you said, you know, I trusted Christendom. That trust is irreparably and catastrophically shattered. I yet believe Christ, and then you go on um about him. Um is is there a difference in your mind between Christendom and the body of Christ?
SPEAKER_02Um my circle of trust is really small now, as you can well imagine. Uh and uh the concept of family is really, really important to me. I I'm a mother in a family and I savagely protect my children, probably a little too much. Um and so I have been deeply wounded in the by the body of Christ. Uh and more recently, since the spa allegations and the Miller and Martin report have come out, I've uh people who have reached out to me have been and been part of the body of Christ have been. Really healing for me. So I do hope that there will be a time when I can return to the body of Christ and it will feel safe, and actually not just feel safe, but be safe. Christendom, I think one of the problems for me, and I think many people would identify with this, is that I came from a pagan family, a non-Christian family, and I just presumed, and I presumed so wrongly, that predation was something that was outside of the church. And so I just I presumed if you if you profess the name of somebody so beautiful as Christ, that you must be beautiful too. And I was just really wrong about that. Um dead wrong almost. And so uh I'm wiser now, and I would be much more careful and conscientious in the future.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. So we've got we've got sort of Christendom, the sort of the military industrial complex, um and they, you know, make that go to the wall. Um we've got but the yeah. But can we yet distinguish that between that and the body of Christ? And can we yet distinguish between that and Christ Himself? Um who who is Jesus to you and who who has he been to you through this whole process?
SPEAKER_02When people are abused by a religious professional, a cleric of any sort, there are many wounds financial, sexual, physical, um, social, cultural. But by far the worst wound is the spiritual wound, and there's all manner of evidence that you know that I could quote for that, but also that just personally, when great evil is perpetrated in the name of great good, it conflates the two. So uh at one point I saw a trauma-informed therapist for a really long time, and in fact, still do about once a month, and she said, make a list of what what is Satan and what is Christ, and then compare that to some of the abusers that you've known in your life. And uh it was a really important exercise for me because when you grow up like I did without a personhood, you sort of watch what everybody else does. Uh, and they they digest the word of God for you, they you know, you look at fashion, uh, well, what did that person forgive for a career? I mean, you kind of you're looking for mirrors, and so in my relationship with Christ, I was always it was always sort of second-hand smoke, you know, secondhand religion. Um, and so I don't do that anymore. Um one of the things that saved my faith is actually seeing Christ as a sexual abuse victim. When I was even when I was a wee girl, evil scared me, and um, you know, I was drawn to the body of Christ. My neighbor took me to an Anglican church, and I just loved going to church. You wore a skirt, and um, you know, the people sang and they said beautiful things, and words have always been important to me, and you know, I had a lot of shame, and and forgiveness of sh sin and shame was freely offered, and I had no identity, and Christ said he would bestow an identity. I had hardly any family, and here was a family willing to have me, and not only have me, celebrate me, and give me important things to do, even if they were small, it felt important to me. And you know, after all of this, I really sort of presumed that the body of Christ and its head had been sort of severed. Uh, but actually, uh, through all of this, in more recent events, I have met the most delightful and beautiful people who um, you know, maybe don't have the biggest platform but have but do have the biggest hearts, and it has really restored um their love and their apology, not only their love, their apology, but their action, um has been a deeply faith-restoring process for me.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And I I think your example has deeply fed Christians as well to see to see somebody speak the truth and get crucified for it. And in so many instances turn the other cheek um and and to forgive, you know, those who have um uh have have sought your your your forgiveness. Um and to know somebody like yourself, Loriane, who has plumbed depths that we haven't ourselves experienced, but have come through with a kind of a a calm dignity and a and a and a faith and a a hope. Is there? Is is there is there hope, Loriane? Are you are you a hopeful person?
SPEAKER_02Gosh, y you can't survive without hope. You know, somebody says, and I don't even know where it says it, that hope beats eternal. When hope dies, you die. Um after all of this, um at some point you either have to go deeper into darkness. So you either have to accept the darkness and cover yourself up or up with it like a blanket. Like, like this is who I am. I'm I'm I'm going to be used as a trash compactor the rest of my life, or maybe just maybe I'm not trash. Um so I said early in this conversation that some of the books that have meant the most to me have been people who have survived incredible atrocities. And and instead of, you know, they were used as trash containers, but they chose to fill themselves with light. And um abuse steals your choice, it steals your voice, it steals your agency. It just ravishes your personhood. And I didn't have much of a personhood to start with. So, you know, when everything blew up in 2016, 2017, and I mean it was like we were on the ground falling apart. You know, actually over the course of the last couple of years, Brad and I have really worked really hard to um establish an identity, uh, boundaries. Um, I just purposed to become somebody that I could respect and that my kids could respect. And in the in the face of such catastrophic lack of dignity, I could be dignified.
SPEAKER_00Right. Well, I think Lauriane, you you yourself have been a beacon of light, and because you have you know, the the Second Corinthians chapter one, isn't there, where it talks about um in our suffering drawing on a comfort with which we can comfort others in their suffering, and I I see that dynamic working out in you in in very profound ways. And um yeah, you you are becoming the justice, you're becoming the shalom, and and you're becoming a source of hope for people who are walking that dark path. So um yeah, I thank God for that. Um c can I just ask you about um this question of trust, we keep coming back to this question of trust, and um we're we're built for it, and yet when it goes wrong and when we're betrayed, um everything is catastrophic and and falls apart. How how do you learn to trust again when trust has been so betrayed?
SPEAKER_02When you look at our little children, you know, my children trust me in ways that I have trusted nobody. Um, and I'm worthy of that trust. Uh, that's not to say that I have never, you know, not done what I said I was going to do or been short or cross, but you know, they they profound me, they trust me profoundly with their bodies, their souls, and their spirits, and they should. And that that level of trust is required in order for children to grow. And uh and I don't abuse my power with my my children. However, there is a naivety that we'll have to they'll have to shed as they move from childhood into adulthood. It's like a skin that needs to come off where uh I help them to protect themselves and I inform them so that they can make good wise decisions, but they're going to go out into a world where they're going to have to learn to protect themselves, and that's of course a process. And you know, you had said earlier uh in a conversation we were having that you know, as Christians we're called to unconditional love, but we're not called to unconditional trust. And I really had that backwards. I I mean I I unc I do unconditionally love, and I did, and I still do, but I don't anymore unconditionally trust anybody. In in Canada, we have a sex offender registry. I know we're in the US, I'm not, I think in the UK as well, there's a sex offender registry. And a very, very few people who actually are sex offenders are on the sex offender registry. So uh in Canada only the the uh like the the police have those names. In the US, they're publicly shared. I'm not sure what it is in the UK. But but you should treat everybody like not like everybody could be a sex offender, but that your child could be a victim. And so, uh and that you could be victimized. And vulnerability doesn't go away as we age. Look at all the elder abuse that happens and the financial malfeasance and you know, people who take people for gazillions of dollars, and they do that why? Because seniors want to belong. So if vulnerability and age had anything to do with each other, you know, we would have more protected seniors. Uh so trust is a really tricky thing because trust once broken is not easily restored. And even the Lord that we claim to follow said that he didn't try he didn't give himself over to men. Why? Because he knew what they were capable of, and we would be, he's and in that same sort of context, he said, you know, you're supposed to be wise as serpents. He says he's he literally says, I am sending you out like sheep among wolves.
unknownRight.
SPEAKER_02You know, be wise as a serpent and innocent and as a dove. And I think in scripture we go, oh, we're innocent, we're innocent, and we forget we are called to be wise as serpents. And so part of wisdom is knowledge, wisdom is just knowledge applied. So again, that knowledge and then applying it to your daily life is really, really, really important. And being vigilant around whatever your sphere of protection is, even if it's just yourself and your cat, you know, whoever is in your your fences, care for them and in and shepherd them, even if that's just yourself.
SPEAKER_00Right, right, yeah. Yeah, we trust what is trustworthy. Um, yeah, and we it it it is not spiritual maturity to trust that which is unworthy. Um actually that's called idolatry in the Bible. Um yeah. That's really helpful. Um can we can we think about I I think as people listen in on this conversation, there'll be many who feel um that they themselves are in a position of victimization, that they themselves are in uh positions of being abused, and I don't I don't know what is going through their minds right now, but they might be thinking, um, oh my goodness, look at um look at the path that Lorianne had to go through to be where she is. Um blowing the whistle or shining a light in this dark place couldn't possibly be worth it. What would you what would you say to them?
SPEAKER_02I felt the same way. Um and uh somebody who I really respect said to me, uh, because I I really pain, what will my children think, you know? And it agrees with me still, what my children think when they they find out what happened to me as an adult. And um, and that person that I trusted said, you know, I think your your children want a mom who lives in the light. And I couldn't argue with that, you know. And so uh however disorienting, however debilitating um the light uh brings, because it it does, it it really brings a spotlight into really difficult and painful places. I still wanted to be somebody who lived in the light, and I can say now, you know, this many years post-disclosure of this particular abuse circumstance that um that I really I wouldn't be in the same position had I not disclosed. Uh I when when I say the same position, everything's changed externally, but also everything's changed internally. And I uh I have developed the uh wisdom and knowledge and capacity to self-protect, and and I just think that's so important. And the other thing is just that if you choose to disclose, um you know, abuse abuse removes choice, voice, agency, personhood, it overwhelms, it it explodes your life. So when when you disclose, I would urge you to disclose to somebody outside of your system. Because as you've indicated in your Tamar video, that it takes a system, a nexus of evil to allow evil to occur. And so you may think you're disclosing to somebody who's safe, but actually the the safest people will be outside of that system. So find a a counselor, maybe not even a Christian counselor, maybe a secular counselor who can help you to elucidate what's going on with you. Um, go to a local sexual assault resource center. I mean, find a safe place, as somebody who has no interest in key in what you have to say not being false, right? And disclose to them and and start the process of taking back uh your life and placing the shame, you know, sexual abuse is the only crime that's committed where the shame of the offender is on the victim. You know, in every other circumstance, you know, so that it takes you the cross in Christ said that you know he carried a cross and he scorned the shame. We're not meant to just carry the cross. Right. Carry that shame. We're meant to also scorn the shame. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And if you are a friend uh to someone who is walking that path and they've disclosed um abuse, um how do how do we be good good friends at that moment?
SPEAKER_02It's a really good question. Um the disclosure of abuse, the reaction to the disclosure of abuse is sometimes more traumatic than the abuse proper. So, you know, the the correct thing would be, oh my gosh, I'm so sorry this happened to you. I believe you. What you know, what do you need now? And the person may or may not know, but even if it's just to stay close by or to help to get resources, etc., the worst thing to do is go and tell everybody else what happened to the victim. Um of course that that's different if it's a child or a minor that's being abused, and you you are mandated to report to authorities and and a catastrophic sick rule will occur in that instance, and it has to occur. But if it's an adult, then you really have to, as as the friend of the adult, you really have to help empower that person, make it safe for that person to make changes in their life, and and safety that just doesn't come easy and it doesn't come fast.
SPEAKER_00Very good. You've been you've been so generous with your time, Lauriane. Um how do you how do you feel about two more questions?
SPEAKER_01Sure.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. We've um we we asked on Twitter um what questions people might have for you, and um we we've covered so many of them uh along the way of our discussion. But uh one person, the prodigal poet, has asked uh how have you avoided bitterness and wanting revenge?
SPEAKER_02Boy, uh I think I had a lot of experience living with injustice uh prior to this circumstance happening. So um and then when I studied abuse academically, I saw that I wasn't certainly was by far not the only person to not receive justice, including through the legal system. And so uh so there's you can't control the abuse that happened to you, but you can control who you become post-traumatically. And so I was looking for anything to empower me. I mean, anything because I was so disempowered, and so the the way that I decided to become empowered was to become somebody, as I had indicated earlier, somebody that ma I could love and respect, and somebody that that that um you know I could go to sleep at night and and be what I wished I had gotten from other people. I had read the work of Paulo Ferrari uh through the course of my masters, and he talked extensively about not using oppressive tactics to liberate. And um, and and that was really stuck with me because I thought, gosh, you know, there's so many people who be become free, who are oppressed and become free, and then just turn around and oppress other people. And and that can't be. You know, when we look at the example of our Lord, he oppressed nobody. You know, he gave information, he he made invitation, but he didn't force anybody, and and that's um that's who I want to embody as well.
SPEAKER_00So I think you've very you've very tangibly done that in the way uh that you have handled um many public apologies to you. Um final question. You you've spoken about um the necessity of being a person of hope, um, but Lee Fernie asks, if you were to dream boldly, what would some of your hopes for the future be concretely?
SPEAKER_02My personal hopes or the broader community?
SPEAKER_00Lee? What's what yeah let's go for personal hopes. Well, no, no, yeah. One one personal hope and one one broader one.
SPEAKER_02Uh when I finished my my master's at the end of June of last year, I had to really look at, you know, my life had been completely bifurcated by this abuse. I was in a healthcare profession and and I did a master's in in abuse and child advocacy and policy. And so the question is, would I go and sort of throw my life back into my healthcare profession, or will I commit myself to a lifetime of dealing with, you know, the outcomes of sexual abuse and try to help other people? And um I made the decision that I would, for the sake of my own personal health and my children, I would go back into my healthcare profession and advocate, you know, sort of as a part-time hobby. Uh, so I'm starting a little business and uh and it's very small right now, it's just me and uh a little bit of equipment, and I I'm a bit of a body technician, so everybody has a body, everybody needs a little bit of care, and so that has to do with like the musculoskeletal system. So I'm I'm going back into that, and honestly, Glenn, I'm super excited about it. I can't wait to do something that has nothing to do with abuse. Um, in time, I hope I can do a PhD. I really would like that, but I want to commit what remains of my children's childhood back to them. So much has been taken from them. So it's important to me to be present. These things steal your presence on an ongoing basis. So enough's enough of that. In the broader church community, I have said it, I've said it probably hundreds of times on Twitter. Courage is the best contagion. So if I'm not leaving this world, I'm still going to be in it, I'm just not going to be in it as intensely. And to the degree that I have blown seeds of courage all over the globe, um, I hope that they find fertile ground.
SPEAKER_00You've certainly scattered uh many seeds, Lauriane, and I'm just uh so grateful to you um for the light that you've shone in those dark places. Um it has not been easy for you at all, but um you've you've lighted the way for uh many who will come after you. And uh we thank you very much. Uh Lauriane Thompson, thank you so much.
SPEAKER_02Thank you.
SPEAKER_00Well, that'll do us on the Speak Life Podcast for this week. I hope you've enjoyed that episode. And if you have any questions or comments or feedback, please email us at info at speaklife.org.uk. We would love to interact with you and do join the lively conversation on Facebook. That is facebook.com slash speaklifeuk. That is our Facebook on Facebook at speaklife.uk, give us a like and a follow, and we'd love to interact with you there. We really hope that you've been helped by our ministry at speaklife. All that we do is supported by the generosity of listeners like you. So if you have been blessed by us, uh please, if you could financially support us, we would be absolutely thrilled. There are ways of doing that either as a one-off or on a monthly basis, just by heading over to speaklife.org.uk slash give. We are so grateful to those who have already given to our ministry and to those who pray for us. You can find out our prayer needs by signing up to our emails at speaklife.org.uk slash sign up. But as I say, if you're able to partner with us financially at whatever level, we would be so grateful. You can head over now to speaklife.org.uk slash give. Well, that'll do us for this episode. See you next time on the Speak Life Podcast.