SPEAKER_00

Hello and welcome to the Speak Life Podcast. My name is Glenn Scrivener, so glad to have your company. Today we've got Dr. Diane Langberg, the author of many books, including Redeeming Pamela. She was uh perhaps the first person I thought of to speak to after the Rabbi Zacharias scandals broke. She has been working uh for 50 years really as a psychiatrist in the realm of church and abuse, and uh her story is one that we really need to hear, and her wisdom is wisdom we we really need to heed. Um can I just ask you to do uh what podcasters are always asking you to do? Can you please uh share our little podcast? Can you please uh subscribe to us on your favourite podcatcher? And uh would you even be prepared to give us a rating and a review? A five-star review really helps us get seen by many more people. Um we've got some great podcasts coming up for you. We've got Lee Fernie, uh, who was a victim of Jonathan Fletcher's abuse for uh many years, and uh he is uh speaking out, um showing us some of the dynamics of abuse and also some of the dynamics of cover-ups that happen. His story really needs to be heard. We've got him on the podcast next week. But uh without further ado, here is my interview with Dr. Diane Langberg. Hello, I'm Glenn Scrivener, and today I'm joined by Dr. Diane Langberg, and she joins me on the line from Pennsylvania. Is that right, Dr. Dr. Langberg?

SPEAKER_04

Yes, it is.

SPEAKER_00

Brilliant. And uh thank you for being so understanding. I I got the times wrong. You you guys have sprung forwards uh in advance of the UK, so thank you for uh thank you for being understanding. Um now you are one of the first people I thought of when um the uh Revisacharias scandals were breaking and people were wanting to know how do we how do we respond rightly to abuse? How do we um how do we make the Church of Christ a place of um healing and hope rather than rather than uh a cover for predators? And um you have been on a very long journey uh on this issue, um almost half a century. Can you can you uh let us know some of your journey uh towards the position that you find yourself in today helping victims of abuse in the context of church?

SPEAKER_04

Yes, I think it's important for because the word trauma and and abuse and things are so prevalent today, people don't realize how young they are. Um when I started out after I finished my master's degree, so it was about 23 years old, I started working with clients and was working on my doctorate at the same time. And it was also a time in the field when there were very few females. So I would often get uh people who asked to see me because of my gender, not because of my experience, obviously at 23. And I began working with um college girls and also with women, and uh it was also at a time when the Vietnam vets were coming home and I worked with vets. And one of the things that struck me somewhere along the way is that there's more than one kind of war zone, that you can go to Vietnam and be in a war zone, or you could go home and be in a war zone. And the latter one I was totally unfamiliar with. I had no war zone in my home growing up. Um, and women used to say things to me um that were they would be very sparse with their words, testing the ground to see if I would listen or believe them or whatever. Um and I think one of the first times I ever encountered uh sexual abuse incest was early on when a college student who had long hair, she pushed her hair over her face, and she said, My father used to do weird things to me. And I had no idea what she was talking about. I didn't know what that meant. Um, and I went to a supervisor who told me women tell hysterical stories sometime, and my job was not to believe them, or I would be basically tainted by their lies. Um, but then as I began to hear things uh from other females, both about sexual abuse but also about domestic abuse, I quit discussing those cases with the supervisor and decided to believe the women. Uh because, in my opinion, they were wildly credible and terrified and wanted help, but there was no, you know, I mean, I worked with deceptive people, but they don't look like these women to. And so I began to learn about those things and how crushing they are to human beings, and how nobody's talking about them or anything. I mean, that the very well-known diagnosis the diagnosis of post-traumatic stress disorder didn't exist until 1980, and I started out in 73. So there wasn't even anything in my field that I could use to discuss what I was seeing. It was quite limited. And so it's obviously changed dramatically since those years.

SPEAKER_00

Right. And you you started to piece together the the women that you were seeing in those situations and some more of the literature on trauma that was was developing. And and am I right in saying that um some of the of the Holocaust victims um and some of their descriptions of the trauma they had been to started to to ring some bells in terms of the people that that you were um counseling?

SPEAKER_04

That was my first teacher. I I um uh and somebody recommended it to me when I was talking to them, uh they were asking me about my work. And again, I was in my 20s, and I said, you know, I'm hearing these things and I don't know what to do because nobody can tell me because nobody talks about it. And she said to me, You need to read Ellie Biesel. And so I did, and I started reading Ellie Bisel and many other writers about the Holocaust, you know, who had been in Auschwitz and places like that. But also uh over time I began reading uh biographical information about Hitler and the system that he built, and how the church toddled along after him and all of those things. So the Holocaust literature has taught me a tremendous amount about trauma and deceit and systems and the church, and how she often steps out of the place that she's been called to live and follows after whoever's promised her bread or whatever it is she thinks she needs.

SPEAKER_00

Right, right. And the next sort of um trauma victims you you were um involved with were were were often sort of church leaders, um in in terms of um that they had experienced burnout and and and worse, and they were coming to you in in the capacity of uh that they were victims of some some pretty wounded, yes, yeah. Right.

SPEAKER_04

Well, uh ministry is a very difficult place, and it it can be a very lonely place. I mean, the life of Jesus shows us that as well. They wanted to kill him, they didn't like him, they wanted him to shut up, there's all kinds of things, and he never did anything wrong. So, you know, you take human leaders or pastors or whatever, and they're they're often very isolated. And the other thing I think is that contributes is the fact that seminaries and other schools that train leaders and pastors don't have them examine themselves. That's not part of the courses. You know, they're taught knowledge, and they're taught to use that knowledge to teach people, which is good, but it's not sufficient. So you you end up with say, let's say, a man who grew up in a home with a father who was terribly verbally abusive and shaming and calling him names and everything else, and he goes to college and he ends up coming to Christ and he wants to serve and he goes to seminary and he's got a pulpit. He he's got all that stuff in him he's never looked at, and it makes him fearful and it makes him feel small, and then he makes a mistake, or somebody thinks he does, maybe he didn't even make one, and he gets berated, and it feels familiar, and uh so it ministry can be quite crushing to people, yeah, and they're not prepared for that part, and they're not prepared to look at themselves because when the when the wounding comes is often when we act things uh in ways that are just reactive as opposed to thought is nobody wants to be wounded, so we strike back or we uh use other people to make ourselves feel better.

SPEAKER_00

Right, right. I was very struck reading um Acts 20, just yesterday, in fact, um, where the apostle Paul says says, keep watch over yourselves and over the flock which God brought with his own blood. Um and we don't do that first bit, don't keep watch over ourselves. Right.

SPEAKER_04

Not only do we not do it, we don't do it first. There's an order in the verse.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, yeah. And then the verse also goes on to talk about how wolves will arise from among our own number. And he he warns us quite clearly about this. Yes. And I guess kind of biographically in your own story, um, you were starting not just to counsel pastors who were victims of abuse, but themselves perpetrators, is that right?

SPEAKER_04

Yes, um, and mostly began hearing that from their victims. So um I had women coming to me who would talk about what had happened in the pastor's office or wherever. Um there was a pretty big train wreck in my head at that point.

SPEAKER_00

Um describe the train wreck.

SPEAKER_04

Well, I was working with many women who are abuse victims later in life, have been vulnerable all of their lives because of mistreatment, not necessarily sexual abuse, but often that. So we have vulnerable sheep going to their earthly shepherd who turns out he wants to feed off of them. And obviously he's wounded, but he's in a great position of power and he has God's name stamped on him. And he may feel not powerful at all, but that doesn't mean you don't have it. You know, there are days with little children where we feel as parents utterly powerless, but we can do terrible damage to our children in those moments because we have power, just by size alone, let alone knowledge and everything else. And so I began hearing about these things in churches, and then also began hearing every once in a while in the beginning, somebody would think it was right or had the courage to go forward, say to a board of elders or something like that. And of course, they weren't believed. Number one, we need this person, you know, our church is growing, all these good things. Number two, you're discredited because you're female often. Um we know this person, we you know, he's so gifted, whatever. And so whole systems were protecting the wolf and not the sheep.

SPEAKER_00

Right, right. And I'd love to dig into the the the playbook, really, um, not only of um the abuser and how the abuse happens, but also in terms of the cover-up and how people end up in systems protecting the the predator rather than protecting um the victims. But but let's let's start off with uh a typical story of how how is it that you've seen in your experience um those in Christian leadership exploiting their power. Um how how do those sick dynamics develop?

SPEAKER_04

Well, they're usually there before somebody ends up in leadership. Uh they have their roots probably going way back. So, for example, you could have somebody who was uh pretty much a bully. Maybe he learned that from the fact that he had a father who was a bully, or maybe that was how he tried to find his way through adolescence or whatever. Um, or you have uh leaders who um lived in the pornography world for years or whatever. So that they've been feeding on things that are not okay, according to God, for a long time. And then it breaks into another area, and all of that happens by way of deceit. You know, one more picture on the computer and I'll feel better. You know, that person hurt my feelings, they have no right to do that, so I'm a bully with them, whatever. We talk to ourselves deceitfully to make okay what God calls wrong, and you can't keep doing that and not get better at it. I mean, anything we practice, we get better at. And so it becomes more automatic. You know, if you first start playing the piano and you learn the C scale, whatever, you have to look at your fingers, you have to go slowly and all this. If you keep doing it, you can do it in your sleep. And so then you add fancier things, and so we end up with the smaller things, maybe the bullying not satisfying or whatever, and we move on to exploitation in another way, and it continues to build. And it when it's covered up, we are contributing to damnable things because the longer you deceive yourself, the easier it is to deceive yourself. And the smaller things don't give you what you wanted in terms of feeding you in some way, and so you end up with darker things and bigger things. So eventually we hear about people in Christian leadership who have abused many, many women or boys. And there were signs, or it was brought up, or something else, and it was covered up, and the deceit in that person grows, uh with just hideous results.

SPEAKER_00

We'll talk about um the positives of the body of Christ and the and the positives of Christian community um as as we draw things to a close. But what is it about the Christian community that can often contribute to sick systems and sick dynamics in in these situations?

SPEAKER_04

Well, part of it is that we we are creatures who are made for God, and we are made for good. But now we live in this really broken world, and he God often seems far away, and or we don't know him very well, or we don't understand him very much, whatever, and we're vulnerable sheep, and so we we in church we expect it to be good, we expect to be fed, we expect people to care for us, and sometimes when we think like that, we don't look, we assume, and then we see something or something happens to us, and typically we talk ourselves out of it. You know, that that touch wasn't meant to be sexual, it just you know, whatever. We we do things like that, so we begin deceiving ourselves as well. But sheep in a church are vulnerable, they're there because they're vulnerable. You know, they need a fenced-in pasture, that's what they're looking for. And we make the assumption there will be no wolves there. It's the way to it's the place we go to get away from the wolves in the world, which is a great place for a wolf who looks like a sheep.

SPEAKER_00

Yes. Yes. And I I I saw a statistic that uh Rachel Den Hollander um tweeted out just last week that uh 90% of sexual predators um claim to be religious. Um and and I and I wonder whether part of that is, well, it's it's a great, it's a great place if you're looking for for vulnerable people, isn't it?

SPEAKER_04

Yes, it is. It is. I mean, you you have to look like a sheep. I mean, obviously there are people on the far end of the scale who are violent and all kinds of things who abuse, but that they're a smaller number than the ones who, by way of deception, have told themselves that they need something and it'll really be okay, and they didn't mean anything bad by it, and all that kind of stuff. And they're with vulnerable sheep who are easy to exploit.

SPEAKER_00

And what are the dynamics, um, the the negative dynamics within a church that make us blind to abuse?

SPEAKER_04

Well, one of the general ways that I think about that is that we often, as Christians, have fallen in love with the externals rather than Christ. So we want the the better church, we want the special church, we want the biggest church, we want the one with the best choir, we want the one that people say, oh, you go there, kind of thing. And I'm not even saying those are actually deliberate things we pursue, but it if you go someplace and it starts growing and people start coming, or that you know they already are, and the music's wonderful and and the the pastor's gifted, all of those externals tell us this is a good place that's safe. Only they don't. They're not the fruit of the spirit, they don't tell you anything about character. What they could be telling you is that there are some wonderful people behind all of this who have solid character and want this place to grow and be safe for people. What they could tell you is this is a hiding place for wolves, and you don't know, which is why sheep have to pay attention in the place they don't want to pay attention.

SPEAKER_02

Right. Right, right.

SPEAKER_04

You know, it's sort of like the way we feel about home. I just want to go home and be okay. I need to get out of here. This is the crazy place I'm in today at work or whatever. I want to go home. Well, sometimes home is a wolves then.

SPEAKER_00

Which which is what makes home so wonderful when it works well and and so d demonic when it doesn't.

SPEAKER_04

Yes, yes, and it was meant to work well. It was all God's intention.

SPEAKER_00

Yes. And I do wonder whether we're we're kind of blind to the idea that the sh the the shepherd's job is to make sure the sheep don't go astray. Um it was interesting, some somebody sort of asked me a question just yesterday. Um they they said, why is it why is it insufficient to look at the abuse of a Christian leader like a Ravi Zacharias and and say, um, there but for the grace of God go I. Um and you know, what what is what is an insufficient what is insufficient about that as a response? And and and my my answer at the time was to say, um, I I think it's to buy into the paradigm that the only thing a shepherd needs to look out for is whether sheep are going astray. And and Ravi Zacharias, you know, kind of went astray, as opposed to seeing that actually a chief obligation of the shepherd is to protect sheep from the wolves and to to look after predators, to look out for predators. But we we we're not we're not so attuned to that. Why why are we not attuned to that?

SPEAKER_04

Because we don't want them to exist. We don't want them to exist. I mean, how many sermons have you heard about that?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04

So uh we we want and it's meant to be, we want church to be a refuge. We want to be fed, we want to feel better, we want to feel cared for. There's nothing wrong with any of those things. But if it makes us cease to be vigilant, which our God has called us to be. I mean, he certainly knows there's wolves around. They got him. So uh but we don't we don't want to live with that knowledge. It doesn't feel good. And you're right, it doesn't.

SPEAKER_00

No, no. How do we stop othering the wolf in in in an in a negative sense? Because because at that stage we're saying they're a totally different species. There are there are sheep and there are wolves, and and obviously there's there's all the biblical warrant in the world for that. Um is is there also a danger of saying that um that that that people are purely monsters when when they act out in these ways? Um or or I mean scripture seems content to say there are sheep and there are wolves, but but could there be a danger of of othering the the predator in our midst?

SPEAKER_04

Well, uh yes. I mean there are also wolves dressed as sheep.

SPEAKER_01

Yes.

SPEAKER_04

You know, there are sheep and there are wolves, but some of them don't look like wolves.

SPEAKER_01

Right.

SPEAKER_04

In at first glance. Um but you know, the comment of, you know, we all sin, we do, but we don't all build an ousfish. And we don't all exterminate a certain group of people because they have a religion that we don't think they should have. So I may hurt people with my words, but it is not the same as building an ousfish. So to to equalize them in terms of their impact and the practiced evil that has to occur for those events to happen. I mean, you don't just wake up one morning and and start abusing children. It doesn't work like that. We get there little by little, deceit by deceit, and uh success by deceit over time. And then we get braver, so to speak, in the in the thing that we're doing. But it's not like we all have to run around thinking there, but for the grace of God, go I. So I might wake up tomorrow and run around the globe and abuse a whole lot of women. No, that isn't going to happen. And when you look at that particular case in terms of Ravi, you go back to the fact that he said, I got this degree.

SPEAKER_03

And I didn't.

SPEAKER_04

I I'm head of a department in a school that had no departments. That's where I mean, I don't know where the deceit started. It started before that. But that was the smaller deceit.

SPEAKER_01

Yes.

SPEAKER_04

And because it was not exposed, and with with the force of this is the light, you have to look at this, which everybody thinks will be harmful to the ministry, but not doing it will be harmful to the soul.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

And so we we push it aside and say it's well, it's really not a big deal. And then it grows. It always grows if it's not dealt with.

SPEAKER_00

Right. So how how should leaders build that into how they keep watch over themselves and over the flock? What what are some practices that Christian leaders need to need to really emphasize?

SPEAKER_04

Well, they they need to um they need to have people in their lives who don't depend on them. So they need people in their lives besides family and besides church. They need people who aren't afraid to say something because they're gonna lose something if they do it. I think that's partly how I ended up with pastors in my office for, you know, they needed a place that was safe for them, but you know, my life wasn't gonna change if they blew theirs up. But if if I'm a sheep in your church and you go, that's gonna change. If I'm an elder, it's gonna fall back on me. So there are people are invested in it not being true. So you need people in your life who are not invested in that. You also need to ask the people who know you where do you have difficulty with me? When is it hard to talk to me? You know, how do I handle criticism? You need you need to ask those questions from the people who are close to you and who you know you are more likely to treat badly. You mean even if you're not a wolf, you know, the people close to you are gonna get bumped by you more than others. And so, and I I think it's important for sheep to know that that one of the ways you you recognize that something's not right is when you can never tell somebody something is wrong.

SPEAKER_00

And if you're a leader um who is not aware of the power that you have, then you you kind of inoculate yourself to that because pe people don't push back against you. So, I mean, the the wise leader at that point thinks I'm making it difficult for people to disagree with me. The naive leader thinks I'm unimpeachable or I'm infallible.

SPEAKER_04

Well, and I'm doing everything right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

Only not.

SPEAKER_00

Yes.

SPEAKER_04

Yes.

SPEAKER_00

Because I remember hearing you at a at a conference in Poland many, many years ago saying that you know that the first thing Christian leaders need to realize about power is that they have it.

SPEAKER_04

Yes.

SPEAKER_00

And that that was news to me.

SPEAKER_04

Well, all humans have power. That's part of our image of God. He's the God of all power. We were created in his image. We have teeny bits compared to him, but we have it. And we were meant to use it to help humans flourish and his earth flourish. That was the purpose of that power. I mean, Adam and Eve didn't sit around sunbathing all day. They were working in the garden and doing all kinds of things. So we're meant to bless with our power. And now we often use it to feed ourselves, to feel bigger, to feel better, to feel more certain.

SPEAKER_00

And when we're in a position of authority, um, we we carry um power with us into a room that we might not be aware of. And I I I I think I I think perhaps speaking from uh an Australian context and then now living in the in the UK, I think um the there there is a kind of a lack of formality that there aren't the same platforms, there's not the same glitz as there might be um in an American megachurch, let's say. Um but simply having the office of pastor um give gives your words a weight and means that what you say is taken far more seriously, and people people consider um resisting you um as as something far more significant um than if you're just a member of the congregation. Um how how does that skew the relationship between the pastor and the and and the flock?

SPEAKER_04

Well, the other piece of it is you're the person who knows more about God than I do. And you're the person who speaks for him. So if I disagree with you, I'm probably wrong. Now, obviously, many churches have people in them who think they're always right about things, even when the pastor says something different, whatever. There's always some of those, but that's not the majority of the sheep. And so you're up there saying something about God or about his word or what his word means, or somebody comes to say something to you that's negative, and you use the name of pastor and you use the word of God and you use the name of God behind your answer, it's hard to come up against that.

SPEAKER_02

Right, right.

SPEAKER_04

And so uh you know, one of the questions I I often will ask and pastors, for example, is you know, how do you select what to preach about? And what have you never preached about? Why not? Sometimes, of course, it never occurred to somebody. I mean, that's certainly a possibility, but the fact is there are many things that we don't, I mean, we don't preach about power, not very much. We don't preach about deception, because things are all through the scriptures.

SPEAKER_01

Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_04

We don't think we don't preach about wolves and sheep, or if we do, the wolves are all outside the church, they're never in it. So that there's power in selecting God's word.

SPEAKER_00

Hey, here's something you might not know. Speak Life is really active on YouTube. In fact, most of our podcasts have video versions on our YouTube channel, as well as many more resources, like our groundbreaking reset series. Reset engages the meaning crisis and speaks with as a mediator. Or you might go to YouTube to find our response videos interacting with prominent YouTubers like Russell Brand, Jordan Peterson, and Alex O'Connor. Go to youtube.com slash speaklifemedia and subscribe to our channel there at youtube.com slash speaklifemedia. Thanks, and back to the show. Um we've just uh today in the UK had the release of uh a review into uh Jonathan Fletcher, who was uh the vicar at Emmanuel Church Wimbledon uh for about 30 years. And um interestingly, in in the review that came out today, um the word fear is used over 30 times um with uh various people um fearing, making even anonymous disclosures um to a board and and um being reassured again and again um this will go no further, you'll be entirely anonymized in this in this uh review. Um the the review said it's it was just palpable the uh the amount of fear that there was just about speaking against the great leader. Isn't is that something that you've seen in your work?

SPEAKER_04

Oh, absolutely, absolutely. Uh, because what you're doing is threatening something huge. You know, it's not a person with another person. That's not what it is when there's abuse. Particularly, you mean again, you go back to the fact that this is somebody not in just in power, but in power in the church, in the name of God, and all of those things. People are highly invested in this person being okay and highly invested in him being okay and you being not okay, no matter whether you say what you say is true or not. You know, you're gonna be the you're gonna be the punching bag for disrupting this wonderful person and this wonderful work. And even, I mean, even once something is proven, like this particular case you're talking about, also like Ravi and some others, there's still people who say it can't be true.

unknown

Right.

SPEAKER_04

And they still are verbally and otherwise after the people who turned on the light. That can go on for decades.

SPEAKER_00

One of the um aspects that the review brought out was uh it was a new phrase to me, they called it the the myth of homogeneity. Um and as they unpacked that, they said it's it's the idea that somebody can be incredibly gifted in one area, and it makes people give a pass to everything else that goes on. And uh I've I've often heard that called. That's the z the halo effect. You know, if someone is just an incredible singer, then you must think that their their home life is brilliant. But you know, that's just the halo effect. And um there's there's no reason why their home life should be as as awesome as their singing ability, and there's no reason why uh a leader's um personal life should be incredible just because their preaching is incredible, and yet we do this all the time, don't we?

SPEAKER_04

Yes. Yes, we do. We assume that that giftedness uh carries over into every area of their lives. But what we we don't understand is that the giftedness could be covering up hideous things. So you could have somebody with incredible preaching skills, teaching skills, brilliant mind, all of those things. But it's a front because the character behind it is abusive or nasty or bullying or raping or whatever. But as long as that stays in front and it's something people want and like, they don't want it to stop being true. And if you've got a gifted speaker and they're accused of abuse, they use their gift of speaking to deny it.

SPEAKER_01

Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_04

Then they're much more pervasive much more persuasive than a victim who's terrified, hurt, stumbling over their words.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, and you you you you brought uh a statistic to the unbelievable program that uh I was on with you last last month that I've been sort of ruminating on since then. But um you you you said anywhere between sort of I think it was like three and five percent um of of allegations of sexual assault. Um you you'll have to fill in the details before I sort perjure myself.

SPEAKER_04

I think it's three and nine percent.

SPEAKER_00

Okay.

SPEAKER_04

Yes. But what that means is 90% of the ones you hear are true.

SPEAKER_00

Yes. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

And we want it reversed.

SPEAKER_00

We act as though it's reversed, don't we?

SPEAKER_04

Well, we do. And we also, you look again at a highly verbal, brilliant leader of a church or organization, and a terrified, confused, stuttering over words, victim of sexual abuse, it's really not too hard to say he's telling the truth and she's not.

SPEAKER_00

What should we tell ourselves in in that moment as as she's stumbling over her words? I guess I guess we need to bring to mind the the percentages, but I guess we've also got to bring to mind what are all the hurdles that she would have had to have surmounted in order to even make make the allegation.

SPEAKER_04

Oh, that courage is unspeakably hard. It's just, I mean, they're very courageous, the victims. I have great respect for them.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

They are turning on a light that risks them being trampled. And they've already been trampled, so they're very clear about what that's like.

SPEAKER_00

And one of the things that gets thrown at um victims in in certainly by the perpetrator, is um uh don't disclose this because it will discredit the gospel. Um this is another thing that was sort of made known during uh the review of of Jonathan Fletcher that uh again and again people did not want to make disclosures because they feared that it would bring the name of Jesus into disrepute, it would discredit the gospel, he was doing a good work. Um is that again a dynamic that you see far and wide?

SPEAKER_04

Oh, absolutely. First of all, it's not a good work, not from God's perspective, maybe a successful work, but it's not good. Those are not the same thing.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

But uh will such things hurt the gospel or the name of Christ? They sure might. That's a good reason to expose them and stop them. And we we worship a God of truth and light, which means he is an exposing God, not a hiding God. He himself is a refuge. But he doesn't hide the truth. And he certainly didn't hide the truth about the Pharisees.

SPEAKER_02

Right, right.

SPEAKER_04

He didn't hide the truth about Rome. You know, he he made those things clear for the sake of the name of God, so that people are not confused that God actually sanctions this behavior.

SPEAKER_00

It occurs to me that our concept of what the light is like. Um I think we we we kid ourselves that the light is uh a warm, effusive kind of glow.

SPEAKER_03

I don't think so.

SPEAKER_00

No, no, it's a spotlight from heaven and it exposes all the light. Okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_04

But the light is exposure. I had grandparents who lived in West Virginia, which is full of the hills and all this stuff, and one of them lived out in the hills. And she had my grandmother had a saying if you turn on the lights, the rats will run. It's exposure, it's not nice.

unknown

Right.

SPEAKER_04

You know, if you uh you know you hear people just say ordinary things, you know, like they went out to dinner with somebody and it's so lovely, and la la la la la, and all this dim lighting, and it was beautiful and everything else. And then there's the stark light. Oh. You know, nobody wants to be seen in stark light. But what we've also lost is the fact that anytime God or his people turn on the light and the rats run, it is God's invitation to the people and to the rats to come to him.

SPEAKER_01

Yes.

SPEAKER_04

There's an invitation in it. It's not it, it's not, it's a condemnation if they refuse to do that. But that's their choice. God is inviting them into the light so that he can help them learn truth, heal them, and give them his love. That's the purpose of the light, not to make things pretty and hide them.

SPEAKER_00

So let's bring that into conversation with um our duty of care, if we're perhaps a part of a church or part of an organization in which um there is bullying behavior, let's say, or there is spiritual abuse going on. And at at some point there's there's some part of you waking up and going, hang on, this this isn't right. Um in in the review just today, um, they they said the evidence from the interviews showed that spiritual abuse um was happening in plain sight, in front of people, it was it was happening in prayer meetings. There was there was bullying that was happening in staff meetings, it was it was kind of on show, and yet people would look at each other askance and do nothing. Um what uh what does it what does doing the right thing call from us? What what what should we do in order to to do the right thing if perhaps we're in an organization or a church in which bullying or spiritual abuse is happening?

SPEAKER_04

We need to call things by their right name. I mean part of our job as humans is to name things. It was there from the beginning. And uh but the naming has to be truth, it has to be right. So uh and it it doesn't have to be a big and loud and messy thing or but suppose somebody's really rude in a staff meeting. I mean, what if you said that didn't feel good? You know, the way that you talked to him or her seemed rude and untroubled by it. Did it in public, you can say it in public. What you might get is more and harsher bullying, which will tell you something very clearly.

SPEAKER_00

Yes. Let me let me bring to you a a few kind of terms that I think are really helpful in these conversations. Um, but um those who are kind of looking through their Bibles, they might not see them, you know, if they look up in their concordance for a a a phrase like spiritual spiritual abuse, for instance. Um there there won't be a section on, you know, Philippians chapter seven, you know, there is so can you can you help us with a sort of a biblical category for what what is spiritual abuse?

SPEAKER_04

Well, it is using spiritual things, which could be position, it could be a scripture, it could be a theological premise, it could be something from a sermon, it could be all kinds of things. But using something spiritual, which is always to be used for good. I mean, that strikes the heart of God when it isn't, but but it's always to be used for good. But using those things to minimize, cover up, deny, uh be deceitful, shut somebody up, those kinds of things that are the purpose of that are never good. I mean, God is a God of truth and light. You know, you that's never good. And he will not have his name used in vain, which is what's happening with spiritual abuse. It's being used in a wrong way to accomplish something that is not like him.

SPEAKER_00

Right. It's the religious whitewash that that enables the darkness underneath. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04

Yes, yeah, and it and it um diminishes people and makes them afraid. Confuses them.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

You know, who am I to go against this person in this position of power who said God said this?

SPEAKER_01

Yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_04

Not only that, they have a degree about what God said. I don't have a degree about what God said.

SPEAKER_00

Yes. Yeah, I keep coming back to Matthew 23. It's just it's just fascinating how rich that chapter is of Jesus exposing the hypocrisy. He he starts by saying, you know, those who sit on Moses' seats, you know, obey them because they sit on Moses' seat and to the degree that they say what Moses says, do what do what they say, but you know, but they don't practice what they preach. And then he talks about the whitewashed tombs and the brood of vipers. And I think he holds together two fascinating things that there is such a thing as spiritual authority that ought to be wielded for our health and benefit, but can be twisted. And and I guess that's what spiritual use is. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

Yes, easily twisted. But yes, I mean spiritual authority is not good if it doesn't look like Jesus Christ.

unknown

Yes.

SPEAKER_04

You know, it doesn't have his his character. You know, he's the word made flesh. He's Moses made Moses' words made flesh. They were not.

SPEAKER_00

Right. Let me bring another word to the to the table. Um grooming. Um and and but in particular, um grooming when there is what what would ordinarily be called an affair between someone perhaps in spiritual authority and someone who is meant to be un under their care. They engage in something. And I I think um without without a proper understanding, we're we're liable to say, uh, the the pastor had an affair with the congregant. But there's something there's something else going on there, isn't there?

SPEAKER_04

Yes. Yes. I mean it's it's a way of sort of normalizing it. You know, well, he's human. First of all, no humans are supposed to have affairs. That seems to be a missing point. But yes, he has a a place of power and authority. He represents God in a way, you know, because of his position. And things like that as knowledge of God, supposedly, whatever. And so to exploit any other human being for any reason is against God. Whether it's financially, emotionally, verbally, sexually, whatever. Any feeding off of another human. That's not where our food is.

SPEAKER_00

And therefore, it's it is insufficient to look at at let's let's say they're involved in a sexual relationship. It is insufficient to look at that as um a relationship of of equals. Um, but that there has been grooming going on. There has been um coercion on some level.

SPEAKER_04

Yes, yes, and it's usually um uh duplicitous that the the it's not just going after somebody, it's little by little, again, words, whatever. I mean, if you think about grooming a dog, you're doing things bit by bit to make the dog look better. So that's what grooming is with humans. It's somebody doing things bit by bit to make what they're about to do look better. To make evil look good.

SPEAKER_00

Let's um think about one one other word. And uh another word, trauma, is when I look at um some pastoral situations around me, and I when I look at historical abuses of trauma, such as Holocaust survivors, it makes all the sense in the world that there is this category for called trauma. Um but you with some with your um psychological hat on as well as your scriptural hat on, help us help us to see this category of of trauma through a biblical lens.

SPEAKER_04

Well, the word means wound. So technically, any wound that we inflict on another is a trauma in terms of its basic meaning. In my world as a psychologist, something is not called trauma unless you have things like post-traumatic stress disorder. You mean you have to meet certain clinical guidelines. Now there's a thing called complex trauma, which is um different. You know, if you have a 19-year-old guy who goes to another country to fight in a war who grew up in a great family and was supported and all those things, he can come home very traumatized, but it's a different level if you are a girl or a boy living in a home where you've been sexually assaulted and trafficked and everything else from the age of three. You have a forming, malleable child marinating in evil and trauma. And so you end up with a different presentation than our soldier. So when I use the word trauma, somebody meets those criteria somewhere along the way. Now it means much something much broader with people, and in terms of its actual meaning of wound, I don't have a problem with that. But that's what we're talking about. So if you talk about something with um uh somebody who who's really hurt you and say, you know, that people say that's a trauma. What that means is what they did really wounded you. But again, if you you think of the situation with Robbie, you think of the Bible's, you think of this case that just came out in England and all of those things, but those were prolonged woundings. And it it's much more shaping and frightening and everything else, as opposed to an incident. And I do not mean to do anything to minimize an incident. You've been raped once, you're traumatized. Yeah, but it's that marinating thing that goes on, so it means different things depending on who's using it and how. Um, but if somebody says I was traumatized, that means they were wounded. What you need to find out is tell me about that wounding.

SPEAKER_00

Yes.

SPEAKER_04

How has it wounded you? What has that been like for you? How has that hurt you? How has it changed you?

SPEAKER_00

And you will get resistance from some pastors who will say, Ah, but you're a new creation in Christ and the old is gone and the new has come. And and the Apostle Paul said, forgetting what is behind, I press on towards what is ahead, and we just draw a line under it and we and we keep going, don't we, Dr. Langberg? No.

SPEAKER_04

I wouldn't have had a job my whole life if that were true. That makes absolutely no sense. I mean, if you look at it on the physical level, you know, I'm walking down the sidewalk, a car hits me, I lose a leg. Well, all things are not made new. I have one leg.

unknown

Right.

SPEAKER_04

And I'm gonna have one leg until they put me in the ground.

SPEAKER_01

Yes.

SPEAKER_04

And so that those physical things are also pictures of internal things. It's not like it only happens in the physical.

SPEAKER_01

Yes. Yes.

SPEAKER_04

You know, you you can't beat a child and traffic them over and over and over again and have them love Jesus and be fine. They'll never be who they would have been if that didn't happen.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

Which doesn't mean God can't use them and they aren't blessed and they don't do wonderful things. But the fact is, whoever they would have been, they won't.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I I think we we fail to have a proper doctrine of the flesh, um that is that is not just, you know, the the leg that can you know get broken in the car accident. But um but but that whole complex, the biological reality of me that I've inherited from Adam, let's say, to use that, you know, that that biblical category, that that is with me until I see Jesus face to face. Um and and that that is a reality for me, um, come come what may. And yes, there can be the renewing of the mind, and yes, I have Christ's spirit, but I still have Adam's flesh, and and failing, failing to see that there's there's that kind of um interaction going on um would will will lead to some very trite counseling, I would imagine.

SPEAKER_04

Oh my goodness. Wounding, speaking of, very wounding, because part of what those responses say to people who have been abused or whatever is I don't want to hear it. I want you to get better right away. Hear the words that will make you better right away. And if you don't get better right away, I'm not gonna like it, and I'm gonna accuse you of not having good enough faith or any faith. It's a distancing way. And what I part of one of the things which I feel very passionately about that that I think the church has lost in some ways or something, is the idea that the person that we love and worship, Jesus Christ, was the word of God, the voice of God, the thoughts of God made flesh. That's how I think about my work. I mean, I have people who've been so abused that if I quoted a scripture, they'd never come back and I wouldn't blame them. It's only been used as a weapon. What they need is for me to be those things to demonstrate safety and refuge and love and patience and kindness and respect and all of those things for an image-bearer of God. And it is that experience in the relationship with somebody who's been suffering and is suffering now that will eventually lead them to the written word in ways that make sense. But that's long, hard work, and I can tell you for sure God's working both sides. I am not whoever I would have been had I not done this work.

SPEAKER_02

Right.

SPEAKER_04

For which I'm I'm grateful for that. And so he's not just transforming the person you're walking with, but he's transforming you.

SPEAKER_00

Tell me about that as we as we finish. Tell me about um how do you keep your faith when you have been privy to um incredible trauma done in the name of Jesus? Um you you have stared at the face of evil, you've you've you've studied the Holocaust, you've gone to Rwanda, you've studied genocides, you've looked at incredibly traumatic abuse that's that's been done in Jesus' name. Um can you finish off by by telling us two things? F first of all, how can you and how can we continue to trust Jesus in the midst of all this? And then I'd love you to talk about how we can trust the body of Christ. Is is there a healthy expression of the body of try body of Christ that we can that we can trust? But first of all, how do you how do you trust Jesus in the midst of all this evil?

SPEAKER_04

Well, um, I would preface that by saying I tried to quit twice. Um you know, just at some point the first time just was overwhelmed with what I was working with women who'd been trafficked by their fathers and just unspeakable things. And driving home, banging on the steering wheel, screaming at God, saying, I quit, I'm done, I don't want any more. You know, obviously that was not successful. But what I I I have learned in those instances and certainly along the way many times, is I have a choice, and that is in walking through this evil and this suffering, and these human beings who are frantically remarkable. It's been an honor to know them. Um but that means wading into the evil because that's their experience. And there are many things about God I don't understand and won't until I see him, and maybe then he'll come in pieces, I don't know. But what I eventually had to choose to do is to really study and begin to think about and understand more deeply the cross because that's where all this suffering landed. I mean, talk about trauma, and not just his, mine, yours, everybody's. He bore the whole thing, and so he he's done something with what I'm hearing that's not finished. He's very clear about that. But I have made the choice in those instances, and in fact, probably on a daily basis, to be with him, knowing he is not represented by any of these things, knowing that when I weep, he weeps, and there are times he weeps and I don't because I haven't even figured it out yet. That he weeps, that he hates it, that he's angry, and that he loves. So it has driven me to the person of Jesus Christ and who he is and who he was in the flesh. Um so I I hold him separate. I hold him separate. Now, in terms of the body, I talk in in a little bit in the new book, in Suffering in the Heart of God, I talk about my father's illness. He was a colonel in the Air Force, he was in World War II, he dropped paratroopers over Normandy. Um, but he became sick and they couldn't figure it out, and eventually it was a neurological thing. So he had to retire from his beloved service, which he was straight at. And I watched him, he was a brilliant man, he was a gentleman. Uh his influence and my mother's as she took care of him and everything else on my life. I don't know how to measure that. But what I watched was a brilliant man who was a superb athlete and all those things. He couldn't tie his shoes, he couldn't walk down the hall. He'd pick up something and he'd drop it. And I realized that when a body doesn't follow its head, it's a very sick body. His head knew how to tie a shoe or pick up something or whatever else, play tennis, but his body couldn't do it, wouldn't do it, because it was broken. And when we do these things and allow them to sit or be covered up or whatever we do in what we call the church, it is not the body of Christ because it is not following its head. And so, number one, there are wolves among the sheep, and they don't look like wolves to some of us, but they are there anyway. But number two, the way we respond to these things, this suffering, the victims of Jonathan Fletcher or of Ravi, or of the people in my church who say somebody's abused them or whatever, the way we respond to them will demonstrate before a watching world whether we follow our head or not. And they will think about our head by what they see in us. And we will either teach them a lie or we will teach them the truth.

SPEAKER_00

And there are yet true, healthy expressions of the body of Christ, though, wouldn't you say?

SPEAKER_04

Yes, uh I have been in the same church for 42 years.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

Small. I think I'm on my third pastor. Anyway, it's been a precious place for me, and our sons grew up there, or whatever. Um I've been and and I'm an Air Force kid, so we were we were whatever denomination the chaplain was for years. So this was really my first uh experience of a church um where I became a member and all those things. So, you know, but it's been a very precious place for me. Um so yes, I I know that such things exist and um and last even, you know. I mean, 42 years is a good amount of time.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, and I also have colleagues that are part of the body of Christ with me who love him and work for him and get down in the trenches like I do, and you know, we share the wounds and we share the sadness and we share the anger and the frustration, and uh we share him. So I I've been both in with colleagues and with my church very blessed.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

So I know they exist.

SPEAKER_01

Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_04

They're often small.

SPEAKER_00

And they exist where and when we share him, as you say.

SPEAKER_04

Yes, yes, and look like him.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04

Well, you go back to Jesus, you know. I always do what pleases the Father. That's the body of Christ.

SPEAKER_00

Which is to go the way of the cross, to use our power and our authority to pour it out and to bless those without.

SPEAKER_04

Yes. Yeah. And within.

SPEAKER_00

Yes, yes. Well, I I hope that um people get your book, Redeeming Power, um, whether they're in church leadership or or um in in any kind of um Christian service, because as you say, we're we're all we've all got power in one way or another. Um, but uh you really help us to uh identify it and you really show us a biblical theology of a way of the cross, really, um a way of using authority in order to bless and to serve, and and uh it gives us a really rich sense of the gospel, I think. And uh I I I thank you for it, and I think it'll bless many people. So uh Dr. Diane Langberg, thank you so much.

SPEAKER_04

You're welcome. Thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_00

Well, that'll do us on the Speak Life podcast for this week. I hope you've enjoyed that episode. And if you have any questions or comments or feedback, please email us at infospeaklife.org.uk. We would love to interact with you and do join the lively conversation on Facebook. That is facebook.com slash speaklifeuk. That is our speaker on Facebook at Speak Life UK. Give us a like and a follow, and we'd love to interact with you there. We really hope that you've been helped by our ministry at Speak Life. All that we do is supported by the generosity of listeners like you. So if you have been blessed by us, uh please, if you could financially support us, we would be absolutely thrilled. There are ways of doing that either as a one-off or on a monthly basis, just by heading over to speaklife.org.uk slash give. We are so grateful to those who have already given to our ministry and to those who pray for us. You can find out our prayer needs by signing up to our emails at speaklife.org.uk slash sign up. But as I say, if you're able to partner with us financially at whatever level, we would be so grateful. You can head over now to speaklife.org.uk slash give. Well, that'll do us for this episode. See you next time on the Speak Life Podcast.