Well, hello and welcome to the Speak Life Podcast. My name is Paul Feasy. We're back again with another episode this week in which we speak to Pete Nicholas, Reverend of Inspire Sir James Clarkenwell. Pete is someone who's been on the inside of the Ewan camps, both as a camper and a leader, and he's worked within conservative evangelical settings in a number of roles. And therefore, in light of the recent scandals in these areas, Pete is well placed to comment on both the great good of some of those ministries, but also some of the things that are perhaps less helpful. Pete also recently gave a fantastic sermon around these issues of abuse. And we do make reference to that in today's podcast. I would highly encourage you to take a listen to that for yourself, as it is really powerful and challenging stuff that many of us in the church ought to hear. And you'll be able to find a link to that down in the description of today's podcast. For that though, if you uh if you enjoy this Meat Love podcast, uh you can really help us out by sharing it with other people and do give us a subscribe on whichever podcatcher you used. And if you feel you're able to give us a five-star review, all of those things are really helpful for getting the podcast seen by a wider audience, and we'd be incredibly grateful for that. But now let's get into this week's podcast, in which we begin by trying to find out exactly how sound Pete really is.
SPEAKER_00Pete Nicholas, uh, you must have many, many soundness points. Can you can you tell me uh how many how many soundness points do you have and how did you rack them up?
SPEAKER_02Thanks, Glenn. Good to be with you. Uh it's funny, like, yeah, when you were actually um well, prepping me before I you said how many soundness points, I always thought, well, I'm not as sound as some people, but I think that's the way that it works, isn't it? It's always elusive. Uh, I don't know, I'll run through it and it'll give you a uh give you a bit of a sense of who I am. So I came to Christ at Oxford University when I was studying my undergraduate there, relevantly for the current debates and things. It was actually um the mission that Rabbi Zachari spoke at in 2000. I was studying philosophy, politics, and economics, and his talks were quite important in helping me to think that there was an intellectual credibility to Christ. But I was kind of having a personal crisis in my life at that point and gave my life to Christ a few months later. Then I went and started going to Snebb's Church in Oxford. Um I uh led at Titus Trust Camps within Lymington Rushmore for a few years.
SPEAKER_00Well, you've you've broken three figures already.
SPEAKER_02Um I then went to work in the city after doing a postgrad at Oxford, and I went along St. Helens Bishopsgate, and I was part of their midweek Bible study, Read Mark, Learn. Um, and then I um did the associate scheme at St. Helens for a year and led their Read Mark Learn Romans Bible study evening, which I really enjoyed. Then I became a study assistant for David Jackman, who was the chairman of the proclamation trust at the time, whilst I was working for Christians in sport as an evangelist and senior staff member. Then I went to Wycliffe Hall to uh study for ordination. Then I got ordained in the Church of England. I don't know whether that gives you points or takes away from that. Um, and then I was a curate at all souls Langham Place um for a year before taking a church plant out from all souls um back in 2013. And that church plant then grew and became what is now inspired St. James Clark.
SPEAKER_00Gosh, that's a lot of points. That's so many points that now one of one of my points is I know Pete Nicholas.
SPEAKER_01You know, super sound now. Dear me. So um, Pete, lots of people we people who will be watching this, there'll be some people who will be very familiar with kind of the conservative circles, but there's also lots of people just for whom it'll be alien to them. They're from a completely different place, different kind of tribe, different outlook on things. Last week we talked a little bit about um the kind of blessings of this kind of tribe, but also the shadow side. Could you give us a sense of like how you would characterize some of the blessings and the shadows as well? And you know, I suppose by that we mean what what do you think they are and a bit about your experience of those, for good or for ill?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. Um, well, look, as you I I really enjoyed your little live cast last week because I think it did speak to my experience of a lot of the blessings. They do have this shadow side as well. And I think as I've grown, you know, and kind of I suppose as I've maybe grown up, but also matured in my faith, I've started to see those and see the good and the bad of it. And that's part of the challenge, I think, is holding those things intentional and trying to um see things that are good, but not throwing the baby out with a bath water, as it were. Um, look, some of the ones that I think about are I often say that I think um we kind of get one half of the verse of Galatians 2.20 and not the other half. So the verse is I've been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. And I think most concerted evangelicals stop there. Crucifixion, I'm dead, there's nothing good in me. And then he goes on in the second half, and this is probably the bit that we miss, which is but the life I live in the body, so I do have a life to live. It's about life, it's not about death ultimately, it's life through death. I live by faith in the Son of God who loved me and gave himself for me. It's this love. And I think therefore we have a strong theology and a real passion for Christ and Him crucified. But I my personal experience, I think we have a an anemic, a shortened view of what it really means to live the resurrection life this side of the new creation and for the fullness of the work of the spirit in our life now, the shedding abroad of God's love in our hearts, the empowering work of the presence of God in our lives, and it an experience of the truth of the gospel. So I yeah, I think we we sometimes there may be one way of framing the charismatic conservative divide, is actually Galatians 2.20. Conservatives got the first half, maybe got the second half, and maybe the reform tradition is longing that we get both halves at the same time. So that would be one way of thinking about a bit. Um, but for my experience, just to bring make that less abstract, more personal, I had a a profound crisis of faith when I was um doing the associate scheme at St. Hens Bishopsgate when one of my best friends at the time, um, a lady called Jenny Marsh, and Nay Jenny Tipp, who was married to a good friend of mine, I played rugby with an october called Nick Marsh, and she died um in their first six months of marriage. And Nick was one of my closest friends, and I needed to pastor myself through that and be a mate to him. And I just couldn't deal with my own emotions, I couldn't deal with the questions he was throwing up about God, and I just couldn't deal with my own heart. And I think I was a poor friend to him because I couldn't be a good friend to myself, and so I had this kind of crisis in my life of I I knew that Christ had died for me, but I didn't know what his presence in my life would was meaning and how that ministered to profound sorrow and and suffering. And yeah, I just didn't have a theology of the work of the spirit and the work of the resurrection at that time that really ministered to me in my grief, and therefore I couldn't minister to my friend. And it's one of my long-bone sources of pain that you know I just did a bad job at that time. So I think I I experienced that kind of um, yeah, that that conflict of those two halves right away. Then I thought I've got to do something about this at that point. So that's one area, for example.
SPEAKER_00Um yeah, I I I remember talking to a friend. I think the only thing that I outscore you on, actually, Pete, is uh I was at Oak Hill. Just just saying, just I just I just want you to know your your place as I as I say that to you. Um when when I was at Oak Hill, I had a very good friend who was talking to me about some horrendous suffering he'd gone through. And he said to me, and it's it's always stuck with me, he said, the only thing that gets you through at those times is sovereignty. And he he used it in the abstract. He he didn't say, he didn't even say God's sovereignty, but it was it was just the the doctrine of sovereignty. And I guess I've spent some of the last 15 years thinking about, well, everybody's got it some doctrine of sovereignty. Like everybody thinks something's in charge of this world, even if you think it's chaos or fate or Allah or whatever. Like, who is it who's actually sovereign? Who is it who's actually in charge of these things? And and for me, you know, that that phrase that's multiple times in Revelation, that the lamb at the center of the throne, that the lamb at the center of the throne, um, he is he is the one who actually knows how to shepherd you um through through all kinds of trauma. Um and it yeah, for for me, that that personal sense of of Jesus is is often is often missing. Perhaps perhaps that's a a caricature, but um that's that's certainly been my reflection anyway.
SPEAKER_02I like the I like that I mean that that idea of shepherding. I remember reading um a book by Eugene Peterson, um, working the angles, the shape of pasture integrity, and in it he talks about soul shepherding. And I've never come across that term before. I was suspicious of it when I first read it, but it again, I think it's what I try to now as possible. I believe to learn to let the Lord do in my life, which was actually shepherd me and lead me through the valley of the shadow of death. And the idea of like asking myself the question, you know, at the time, did I believe in the active work and the active presence of God as an experience in my life? And the honest answer was no. I thought God's sovereignty meant that he was back behind the scenes pulling the strings, but you wouldn't experience him in the day-to-day. Um, but then to actually like part of the only way that I got through that awful experience and kind of came out the other side still trusting Christ, I think, was because I started to realize God's active sovereign work in my life and in the life of my friends, um, and shepherding me and leading me, you know, that became a reality that I had not really heard talked about in those terms before.
SPEAKER_00So do you think part of it is is a deficiency in the the question of what now? Okay, so if I've trusted Christ and I'm saved, um what is there now for me in this life between between now and when I see Jesus face to face? Like what are some of the typical answers that are given to that question and and and why are they deficient?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, well, so there's a right emphasis. I mean, this is one of the other things that I had as you know, the kind of the good side and shadow side was like a passion for knowledge about Christ. But I think maybe a particular view, maybe a you know, beware of um Greeks bearing gifts type thing. So maybe a Greek view of knowledge, which is um, you know, kind of knowledge about in a more abstract sense rather than maybe like a more affectionate view of knowledge of an experience of it. Or a friend of mine, you know, his bright for me puts it in the terms of you know, you have knowledge and you have experience, and they're all pitted against each other. But Christianity is an experience of the knowledge of God, you know, experiencing a day-to-day reality. And yeah, I think um I think once you once you realize that to know Christ is to experience him in the days of day reality, and not be suspicious of that. I remember, you know, I'm sure you would have read it, but like Francis Schaefer's book, True Spirituality, when he he starts the introduction talking about this crisis he had where he's reading the experience of the saints in the New Testament, and he turns around to his wife Edith, and he says, I have no knowledge of this, like this is not part of my experience of the Christian life. And he says, I've been ministering, I've been speaking, I'm kind of famous internationally as a Christian apologist and and thinker, and yet I don't even have the baseline experience of the New Testament. And you can imagine that conversation, how that went with your wife, I hope, which is I'm gonna line and go away and try and think it through. But thanks be to God, he did, and then he wrote me a uh sorry, then he wrote some true spirituality on the back of it. And I think it was a similar thing for me. I I suddenly started reading the New Testament and thinking, where the way that Paul speaks about his experience of the knowledge of Christ is not something I can own, you know, joy, um, a profound sense of Christ in the midst of our sufferings, um, a tangible work of him and changing me in my in my life. I just thought I know about these things, but I don't know them, truly know them.
SPEAKER_00To what degree do you think that's uh a cultural issue that that is also common to British men in particular? Um, what one of the cultural elements that's coming out in these reviews, and there'll be some further reviews of of John Smythe and uh his impact on UN camps. And um I just wonder how much does public school culture in Britain um how how much has that overlapped with some of the church circles that we're talking about?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and it it might not be um, you know, I think you were pushing it this it might not just be um a culture of men, but I wonder if it's a it's a particular class of men as well. So I think you know, you get the Tom Brown school days, gentlemen don't show emotions, um, kind of line. And I think that was very much part of the ethos of public schools to a degree. And you know, there's a lot of public schools are good for some things and bad for other things as well. But you know, certainly I probably found it myself being a sports player and going along to a public school. I don't think I found a healthy environment there to express emotion. Um, and so you basically learn to be tough and to to hide your emotions, or you'll they get exploited. Um, and I and I think one of the problems with that is that kind of that middle class you know kind of emotion is just don't show it, just deal with it, push it down, focus on behavior. And there's definitely this kind of um normative aspect to the Christian life by which I mean know things and do things. Um, and we see that in Castelli Evangelical subculture very strongly. Interestingly, now in the context I minister, where like two-thirds of the area here, and I live on a council estate, so they're not middle class, it's the majority working class and kind of um you know, a lot of them unemployed. And actually, there's a much bigger um emphasis on emotion there. And arguably there's a divide in in class between you know knowledge and you know, don't show emotion, and then you know, more working class thinking on the football terraces, you know, stinging arms in the air showing emotion. And and maybe that's one of the reasons why charismatic movements like New Frontiers have been more fruitful amongst the work amongst people who are not middle class. Whereas conservative evangelicism has appealed in a way to those who are more middle class because it gives a safer forum for lack of emotion. Um for us where we minister in a mixed context, you we have to grasp that nettle, otherwise we won't be able to appeal to the people on the estates type thing.
SPEAKER_01I can definitely identify with that that sense of um almost this separation between head and heart type things. Um you know, I can I can remember really specifically quite early on in my kind of time in these circles, a guy coming to our church and preaching, and um and and it was kind of a a longer preach than we would have been nor uh you know used to. But I remember this guy was just in tears weeping, you know, and and just urging people to turn to Jesus and give their lives to him. And I remember the next meeting we had as a staff, someone said they thought he was emotionally manipulative off the back of that. And I just thought, like I'd just be nice. You know, and I think there there is that sense, isn't there, of um there's been I I certainly felt from others there was a real weary, or I was taught as well, I suppose, a wariness of emotion in people, you know, that um you know people's experience well, you know, it will never will never trump the head knowledge stuff. Right. Um but they were so distinct, there wasn't that overlap, like you said, of kind of the the yeah, the knowledge of experience, um the experience of the knowledge, um two separate things.
SPEAKER_00And the way people would do that is they would say, Oh, we're not so much into experience, we're into the word. But when they when they claim that as Trumps, they're really thinking of the word from an intellectual point of view, right? Because the I mean the scriptures are pretty emotional, you know. Affectionate, you know. And I know that that's played a big part in in your journey as well, Pete, in in terms of discovering the place of of the affections. Like how how how did you come across affectionate theology?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, well, it was actually it was at that time that I mentioned. So I was going through this crisis, and I just had well, stranger, I had nowhere to go theologically, really, unfortunately. And also I was very isolated in terms of um friends who I could talk this through with. So I started reading the psalms just because I knew that they were the most emotional place in the Bible. And I I just got stuck on Psalm 42 and just going around and just seeing how the psalmist was just um was speaking to himself and taking his emotions in hand, and he seemed, and his emotions seem to change over the course of Psalm 42 and Psalm 43, which kind of they've taken as a pair, you know. And he's got this why are you so downcast over my soul, why are you so turned within me, hoping God you yet shall praise him? He says it like three times, but he seems to change. And I thought, goodness, like the idea that you could you could take your emotions in hand in the context of scripture, in the power of the spirit, and actually change your emotions. Like I just thought emotions were just these things that were like the unruly sea, and you just had to like be at the whim of it. But then suddenly you realize, oh no, you can you can pass your heart. Um, and then someone put me on to Jonathan Edwards and said, not the triple jump book, but um the um but the theologian and said, read Jonathan Edwards, the religious affections. And as I read it, I thought it was like he was writing into the conservative charismatic debate when he talked about not only light, not only heat, but light and heat together. And um, and I thought, yeah, this is really something that I need to hear. And so that then started a long journey for me of really reading into that. And our second value I inspire is engaging the heart because we we want to engage what we think is not just the head, not just the emotions, but the heart, the loves, the desires, that fusion of um emotion and intellect together type thing.
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SPEAKER_00We've had some uh we've had some good comments from uh Brandon John Kemedy. He says, uh, yes, the uncomfortable, very true reality that we are the bride of Christ and that biblically to know one another is a pretty intimate metaphor within marriage. Um yeah, when we think of know, we think of head knowledge. Knowledge and yeah, right. But Adam knew Eve and conceived Cain. Yeah, like knowing in the biblical sense is is uh is to take something to yourself, and it's a it's a thoroughly relational thing. And Colin Miller in uh Top Chat has said a neglect of union with Christ in disciple making might be behind this. Jesus promised in John 14, verse 20, the Holy Spirit giving us the personal intimate knowledge uh of us in Christ and Christ in us. Um so yeah, so there's there's very very definitely that that sense that um I think in our circles we can be um very uh afraid of emotion, I think, and and afraid of the affections and the heart. And just pressing into that question though, um Pete, in term in terms of um the public school aspect to this constituency, can you can you give us a little history perhaps of um how uh how it has been that camps that are in particular focused on um very elite uh public schools in the UK, how have they come to have the the significance that they they've come to have in our little tribe?
SPEAKER_02Well, I'm no I'm no historian, so all this needs to be weighed and checked. And um my uh tutor at Wycliffe and Drew Um Atherston would be much better on this. But broadly speaking, so um the Titus Trust camps in modern form started, I suppose, all the way back when Eric Nash, with now in the the light of the abuse scanners, the very unfortunate nickname, but I think the Lord is maybe highlighting something. His nickname is Bash. Um he started in 1940, I think it was. So you've got to think that the you know, on the back of the First World War and coming out of the second world war, these camps started, and his focus was on the top 30 public schools, and explicitly so the top ones. And the idea was that well, A, they needed the gospel just as anyone does, and thanks be to God for that, but also that B, you would there was very much a sense coming out of Victorian England that the way to change culture and reach society was to reach the elite, and then you would, if you reach the elite, you reach the influencers and you'd reach society. And that was very explicitly part of it was under the waterline, but it was very explicitly part of his kind of strategy and vision. And and I want to give thanks to God and you know, kind of highlight how much that did. I mean, you know, liberalism started ravaging the church in the early to mid-20th century, and there was very little of evangelicalism in any kind of discernible form left. And it was really through the work of these camps and then through CUs that you get really important leaders like John Start and Michael Green and Dick Lucas who come through. And those CUs, particularly Oxford and Cambridge and Durham, kind of basically were the only places that were really holding to the evangelical, um, the evangelical faith at that time, really, and revived it. And so this this school and student movement then brought about, you know, a kind of a I guess a revival of um evangelicalism. So those leaders, you know, kind of came through that and the camps, you know, did a lot with that. Um, but then those camps um, you know, continued with that kind of focus, and they were taken on by the Titus Trust in 1995. They'd previously been under the you know, kind of running of Scripture Union. Um, and you know, they diversified a bit from there, but there was still a focus on the um, you know, on the top, you know, kind of public schools. They're not just UN now, there was Limiting Rushmore, so Glodith camps. Um, these are rather strange names related to the places where the camps are held. Um, and then yeah, and in in modern day, I suppose that Titus Trust, you know, would would say that they've moved away from the um from the explicit focus on reach the few to reach the many, reach the elite to reach the many, and they're more focused now on just reaching them because they need the gospel as much as anybody. Um, but there's still that legacy there, no doubt.
SPEAKER_01Can you tell us a little bit? Because you you've been to these camps, uh am I right in thinking you've you've very much been a part of them. Uh was that kind of leading and as a camper?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I started as an assistant leader. I think I only went for three I'm trying to wrap my brain. I think I only went for three summers, but then my brother was also involved as the general manager of the Titus Trust for a few years. And um and yeah, I took one year out from working in the city and worked at a public school and I set up a CU there and that was supported by the the Titus Trust as well. So I very much, you know, from within it, and therefore any, I suppose, critiques that I have to say is very much, you know, as a brother speaking to brothers and sisters and not as like someone lobbing stones in from the outside. So it's very much, you know, self-critique and looking in the mirror.
SPEAKER_01Well, as someone who has been on the inside, then what would you say are similar to as we said before with the the whole constituency? What are some of the really good things about those camps and what are the things that are perhaps a bit more uh less less good?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, well, one of the things is what they're trying to do in the first place. I mean, they're they're trying to reach people for Christ, and that's just a wonderful thing. And there's a real activism, a real focus on evangelism, a real focus on the gospel. Even the way that the camps are set up, it certainly used to be. I mean, I've not been for a few years, so I it might have changed, but it used to be that the the kind of there was a very well-run scheme of talks for the camps that would take you through the gospel basically as it's two ways to live. And the real focus was on, you know, on the talk, which was you know, three-quarters of the way through camp, um, which was you know, the real focus on a call to response on the back of taking through sin and the cross, and you know, and then you know, you need to decide the core, and it was kind of a real honor to get that talk, as it were. So, this focus on the gospel, focus on evangelism, focus on you know reaching people for Christ was wonderful. But arguably, I think one of the problems, you know, that then also the shadow side of that was it was almost as though that was all the gospel was. Um, you could reduce it to that scheme of talks. And so contemplation and real thinking and real study was issued. And partly, I wonder if there's a background there as well, because a lot of when a lot of these men who were shaping those camps were coming through theological education themselves, they were being taught by liberal educators, and very few had the theological ability of a John Stott to take them on. So most of them just opted out rather than sitting through liberal lectures and engaging their brains. I think they just opted out and got involved in camps. And so if you hear the testimony of many of these men who are now, you know, in senior positions, you you hear saying, Yeah, I didn't really study theology because there was no point because it was all liberal. So they didn't really cultivate that deep thinking because it wasn't part of their theological education. And I think that that's led to maybe a thinness, maybe actually even a suspicion of academia, um, and maybe in a shool of contemplation and study and depth over get things done and be active.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. That that that that certainly rings true in terms of a suspicion of theology and a and and and at times a kind of a hole where a kind of a rich theology kind of ought to be. And and so often the the activism comes in at that stage, or just get out there and evangelism kind of comes and and takes takes the place of that. Um, I I wonder if um you could think back to the scandals that have been breaking at the moment, and there's been um all sorts of issues around Steve Timmys and Acts 29, and there's been issues around Jonathan Fletcher, there's been Ravi Zacharias, there's John Smythe reviews that have come out and that will come out in the future. If you could obviously that takes in a a wide range of kinds of abuse, but could you put your finger perhaps on one or two elements that that are common to those scandals?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, well, one of the things, I mean, I I preached a sermon on Zechariah 13, and one of the things I named it there was around the whole theme of power, and I think this has been an ongoing issue for us within evangelicalism, which is activism, I think, tends to the idol of power. And maybe it's a great unchallenged idol for us. So we're very conscious of sex and money as being you know idols we really need to be very careful of. And so, uh, but the idol of power, I think, is often unchallenged. Um, and maybe even the ways that we think we we sometimes deal with it, I think we, you know, we're not really, you know, kind of dealing with it. So, for example, one of my experiences when I went to um Lympton Rushmore camp, I was an assistant leader, and the guy who was pastoring me at the time as a student worker, um, you know, when I arrived, uh, literally right there, he said, Great, you're here. There's been a toilet that's been blocked for two days. Um, here's a plunger, here's a bog brush, here's a bucket, go and unblock it. And I was like, What are you doing? I've come to serve a camp. And he was like, Well, Christ has died on the cross for you. Do you think this is easy? So I was like, okay, so off I went, and you know, as a kind of funny aside, the girl that I fancied at the time walked past as I'm like kind of on my knees in front of this stinking toilet, you know, stuff like that. But I think, but as I look back on that, initially I thought, what a great way of teaching me humility. But actually, it wasn't really any different to the public school fagging system. Now, for those who aren't, what that means is you basically you pay your dues. So you you serve humbly, but you'll be exalted later. Now that sounds like the gospel, but of course, the exalted later in the gospel is a lot later. Exalted later is in glory. Um, it's not pay your dues, and then you'll no longer be cleaning toilets, but someone will be cleaning toilets for you. It's no, no, as a as a minister in Christ, um, you're never beneath cleaning toilets. Um, you're always prepared to do that. And I think there was a sense of do it as an assistant leader, but then you become a leader. And you know, whether that was in conscious or not, that that sense of you know, pay your dues, and then you get, and of course, that doesn't really deal with pride, it just says wait and you get your kind of reward for pride later. Um, I wonder if that dynamic of power and stuff is a problem within evangelicalism across a lot of these these areas where abuse has happened.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, you mentioned that sermon that you preached on Zechariah. Um, we we watched it as a as a staff team today, and just that uh there was a real sense of I think righteous anger, would you would you say that there was a there was a real sense of of indignation at abuses of power? Did you did you feel that as you were preparing it? Did you feel that as you were giving it? And and yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02But for me, I mean like part of what we always say when we're preaching anyway is to try to inhabit the text, right? And you know, not just the truth of the text, but the emotion of the text as well. And if you ask yourself as you read Zechariah, what is his emotion, it's righteous anger on behalf of the Lord. Um, so I was trying to have that. But also, I've been on a journey for a year or 18 months or so. I think a little bit like you were referencing Glenn since maybe the thing came up about the EMA and the announcement about Jonathan Fletcher's abuse. And I just decided to really engage with that and really think about that, and then some personal circumstances that made me think in a very concrete way about it as well. So it wasn't all I'm saying is it it has ceased to become abstract for me. This idea of abuse was not an abstract distance notion. The more I got involved, and the more I started looking at that, the more I started listening to survivors, the more I started realizing how badly we've neglected the voice of survivors, and the more I realized what a struggle it's been for many survivors to bring these things to the light. And that there's layers, you know. They part of the way that abuse is perpetuated, as you know, I I know you know and you've spoken about is there's there's the deception of the abuser, he's self-deceived, normally he, right? He self-deceives. Um, and then that leads to deception of others, and in that context, it is how he coerces others. But if you've got those layers, that means that for a survivor to get through and for their story to be told, they have to push through those barriers in reverse. And it's almost impossible because they're vulnerable. That means there's a weakness there. So, how are they, you know, they're all the power dynamics are against them, and all of the truth, that is the lies that have been told, are all against them. Think of Lori Ann Thompson, as I know you you know, you you know from your experience. And you just think for her to bring that to light was years of trying, years of trying, just to get through those layers of coercion, deception, deception of self. And when you realize that, you think their experience isn't only that they've been abused, but then they've been traumatized and re-traumatized again and again and again by the fact that no one believes them, or they've been gaslit or Darvo, deny, accused, reverse victim offender. Um, and that's just made it far, that's that's compounded the pain. And I started asking the question what does the Lord see and feel when he sees that in his church? I mean, it just must be layers of anger for the Lord because he is near to the brokenhearted, right? And he he draws near to those who are vulnerable, he specifically identifies for those people, and shepherding is using power for the sense of the weak. And so when you invert that and become a wolf, I mean, what does the Lord think about that?
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02So yeah, I think that's where I was coming from in that sermon.
SPEAKER_00And then I I I certainly found when I uh when I got a bit angry, uh, and I preached from 2 Samuel 13, and it it really seemed to connect with a lot of wounded sheep. It really seemed to connect with people who've been survivors of abuse. And the thing that I was getting again and again from from people saying, Thank you, thank you for speaking like you spoke, is that actually the anger of a shepherd who's going to direct that anger at wolves makes the shepherd more trustworthy to the wounded sheep, not less. And that was very interesting because I uh a couple of people sort of say, Oh, Glenn, it's very, it's very dangerous to get angry. And that's absolutely right. You know, you know, anger is the devil's cocaine, and it's you know, you've got it it's got it's got to be used wisely, and so much anger is is self-righteous anger um rather than righteous anger. But what was really striking me was how many victims of abuse then started to see me as someone they could maybe entrust a little bit of their story to because somebody was appreciating the horrors of abuse and responding with some some kind of appropriate emotional response. And and actually, anger, um, when it's rightly directed, attracts the trust of wounded sheep. Is that is that something that you've found as you've spoken in this way?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, um, yeah, and I I well, I think you've just put it exactly as I said. I experienced probably two things. I think I experienced um a fair bit of pushback, um, though interestingly, within our concern evangelical constituency, very little of it was to my face. But I had a lot of friends phoning me and saying so-and-so's spoken to me. And I just kept saying, like, I'm 43 years old. This person's 40, get them to give me a call. If they're upset about something, give me a call. We'll talk about it as like brothers in Christ. So, but it very rarely came directly. But that was obviously painful when you hear about the kind of whisperings behind closed doors about you. But at the same token, it's almost as though, as you say, Glenn, the the maybe the kind of sense of you know, righteous indignation about this creates a cover, which then gives people an opportunity to kind of say, I think you might be, you know, a person who will use whatever position you've got to help me, and therefore I'm gonna test the water with you. So I've had a lot of people phoning me up saying, Can I tell you my story? And it's been a privilege, it's been an emotional burden as well, but it's been a privilege to hear and that and it's made me realize that these abuse scandals, tragically, awfully, they're they're not one-offs. There's there is a wider cultural problem here. And I think that's one of the things that a lot of people have asked me. They said, you know, we we don't we don't see the wider cultural problem. And it and it's difficult because some do see it and others don't. Um, the Emmanuel Church Wimbledon Review talked about it, but I think as you know, once you scratch the surface, it's as though, or maybe to use a different metaphor, once you I lift up the rock, a bunch of stuff crawls out and that's just been hidden from the light for too long. And some of that can be really restorative and some of that is very, very painful, but it kind of needs to come into the light, and that's certainly been my experience.
SPEAKER_01So you speak a little bit there, Pete, about the the wider cultural kind of issue. Um, and I think you know it's been helpful for me thinking about this in these last few weeks to see um that the way some of these things have permeated into the wider conservative evangelical culture. I've certainly been able to look at it and see things in my life, even though I've never been part of kind of the the UN or Lymington Rushmore type things. Um, and so it's definitely made me sit up and think, you know, what things in my own practice kind of may have been affected by this and would be negatives. Um and I think it's made others I know sit up a little bit and think about what part of our culture have we sort of imbibed without really thinking about it, what might be what might we be doing that isn't good or helpful. For you, where do you think, you know, where does the culture go from here? How do we actually bring a change in this culture?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, well, look, I mean, I wonder if stepping back a little bit, the the reviews give voice to the survivors and their advocates. So the advocates of the people who've been along with the survivors on the journey, trying to get their voice heard. And if you think of it in the like, and let's make it really simplistic, let's imagine that awfully I walked up to someone and I slapped them on the face a couple of times. That person would not respond in a calm manner to me. That person would not come to me and say, Pete, you know, I really want to speak to you about your godliness. I feel that you know you're using your power wrongly at the moment. They would not, they'd go, What on earth are you doing? Don't you dare hit me. It would come out with emotion, with force, and probably with some sin in there as well, because we're sinful human beings. But if I'm godly, the last thing I do is say, your tone of voice is outrageous. That's not the issue, right? The issue is I just smacked you in the face. And and when these reviews have come out, what I think what's what we need to be really careful of, but unfortunately, I think what we've seen is some of the people at whom some of the leaders, and may I put myself in that category, who are gonna now get some criticisms of the aspects of the culture they might have propagated, enabled, been involved with, turned a blind eye to, they're gonna get that anger. And that's because this has been hidden for decades, a lot of this stuff. And so the survivors are angry, and they're rightly angry. Um, and but in any situation, if our first default is to get defensive and say, what's your tone of voice, or I don't like the way you're speaking to me, or then that that's just not the issue. I mean, that's just a deflection from the issue. And leaders need to be secure enough in the gospel to avoid the familiar defensive responses of either aggression or either, you know, woe is me, you know, it's awful and my life is falling apart. Well, that's just making it about you again. It's not about you. If you're if either if you're a leader, then be a leader. And if you can't be a leader, in a nice possible way, step aside. So someone who's robust enough in the gospel can be a leader and say, I need to hear your experience. We need to hear it. It's been silenced for too long. So the first step needs to be like listening and getting your ego and the sinfulness of the ego out of the way to listen and really hear what's being said, because these are people who've been silenced for decades in some cases. So don't expect they're going to put it across to you in a super constructive, really gracious way. Deal with the anger. That's part of what you know we need to hear. And as Leeds, we need we we, in some sense, just have to let it come out. Um, and they'll probably need to say it a number of times. And again, listen and be patient and listen and hear, really hear. But I think the first step is avoided defensiveness, and then from really hearing, there needs to be this um movement to healing and redemption and proper apologies, you know, which really make an enormous difference and proper restitution and then a path to change. But at the moment, I don't even think we've gone, I think we've navigated this very first step really poorly. If you look at the range of responses, you can just smell the defensiveness all over them. And I'm thinking for a lot of leaders, there really needs to be some careful examination of their functional understanding of the gospel and how it ministers to their hearts in a time when people are angry at them and how they deal with that, because it's not it's not been shown up well at the moment.
SPEAKER_00Right. What about social media? It seems to me like we need a grown-up conversation about social media at the moment, because obviously it's a new technology and it's radically equalizing in terms of the power differentials and it gives a voice to people who otherwise don't have a platform. And if all that people have experienced from those who have the traditional platforms, if all they've experienced is power plays and cover-ups, um, then when they get the voice that a platform like Facebook or Twitter gives them, um, then they aren't going to use it and they will they will call out. And I it seems to me that at the moment what we have is the there are people who have the more traditional platforms and are not used to the new social media platforms. They also don't know how to how to handle that kind of thing. Now, obviously, we all know that there can be twitch fork mobs, and we we all know that that um there are dangers to social media, but I don't think as well, we properly appreciate the voice that sometimes social media gives to abusers and and uh to to victims and to their advocates at at this point. How how how can we navigate these waters around social media?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I I think you put your finger on it, which is you know, ask ourselves the question why are these things coming out now? When they've been, you know, they're dating back decades. And uh and it's it's related to the you know, Harvey Weinstein was arguably the most famous case of this where it broke, it was the social media technology that enabled the voice to be heard and enabled someone with considerable power in Hollywood not to suppress that voice. Um, suddenly social media and things going viral suddenly got a hold and brought it to attention where people can ignore it any longer. Same with the Rabbi Zakarai scandal. You know, for a for a while, Rabbi Zakarai's international ministries were able to suppress the voices of the victims and specifically Laurie Ann Thompson. But in the end, despite the NDA, there was enough out there in the public realm for it to come out on social media and force, I think there's no other way of reading it, force the hand of the ministry to deal with it. And similarly, you know, in this situation, I wonder, you know, again, with tragically with Jonathan Fletcher and also, you know, with um with John Smythe, the abuse was going on for years, decades. So why did it come out more recently? Again, it's social media means that it won't come out. So one needs to engage with you know, every human technology, because it's created by human beings or innovated by human beings, is going to be full of sin and also good as well. Um, you know, common grace and redemptive grace as well. They're gonna be mingled in. But you know, the kind of responses that are wiping all off are it's just the Twitter mob. It's basically a way of just, I think it's just because it's uncomfortable. And yeah, there will be ungodliness on Twitter, but you know what, the Lord's also gonna use it, as he's done in history, use technology to do his work. And I do believe that Twitter is really important and other social media platforms, but of course it's incumbent on those of us who are on it to try to inhabit a godly mode of engagement with that. But certainly the idea of trying to silence it, which I've heard some people, you know, it's let's ignore Twitter and let's not, you know, we'd be out of roof if we didn't have Twitter. I kind of want to say, Then do you think the abuse scandals would have come to light if it wasn't for Twitter? Right, right.
SPEAKER_00We've got a question in the top chat that is uh on this topic. Somebody says, uh, can you say a bit more about how you think these conversations should be happening? It seems like it should be in the local church, but you've been talking about conservative evangelicals. And I guess that's talking about sort of wider constituency points as opposed to local churches, and it might be talking about these online platforms as opposed to within congregations. So, how how do we keep these conversations going in a healthy way?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, look, I think it needs to be taking place definitely at the local church level, but not only at the local church level, because the problem isn't only at the local church level. Um, so you know, as a local church, we in Sparta Nation, we've done a month-long series looking at this, we've done seminars on it, we've prayed about it, we've we've tried to be engaging on this on a number of levels. We've offered lament resources and led an evening of lament about it. So we have been conducting a local church, you know, kind of response to this before the abuse, um before the reviews initially came out, actually. We wanted our church family prepared. But also, I'm passionate, I know you are as well, Glenn, about catalyzing a conversation that's broader than that. And I was involved in the um Emmanuel Church Wimbledon, you know, kind of review or at least calling for it to happen. And then and the call for it to happen was was also this needs to be part of a wider cultural analysis because a lot of the bullying behavior or enabling of abuse and Jonathan Fletcher's remit was beyond the the church alone. It wasn't just Emmanuel Church Wimbledon where it happened. And if you speak to the survivors, it was for a lot of them as they'd left Emmanuel Church Wimbledon, they still can get a job because Jonathan was rubbishing them to another church, and that's a wider cultural issue. Why did that church listen to him? Why did they not listen to the survivors? So those painful questions need to be explored at a broader level as well as at a local church level as well. It needs to be a both and on, either or I suggest.
SPEAKER_01Pete, um, what would you say? I mean, off the back of all these scandals, we've we read about lots of people who've said things like, oh, you know, I came to faith through Ravi Zacharias, or I was very much, you know, I was part of UN Camps or whatever it might be. And they're saying, now I just don't know what to think about my faith, you know, and that they're questioning their faith entirely off the back of these things. What would you say to someone who came to you and and maybe voiced that kind of thing?
SPEAKER_02Well, I mean, I say I understand because honestly speaking, humanly speaking, it was Ravi Zacharias's talks and books that made a big step for me in thinking that there was intellectual credibility to Christianity. And I even thanked him about eight years ago before I knew about any of these scandals when he came to Wycliffe Hall and I was able to see him and thank him and have a five-minute conversation. I regarded that until more recently, and I saw the scandals as a great privilege of my life. So I want to say it's not abstract for me. I kind of I have had to grapple with it and ask myself, what does that say about the Lord? That he would use someone like that in a profound way in my life when the abuse was actually happening. So it wasn't that maybe when he spoke in 2000, we now know he was he was committing abuse then. So I mean so he he spoke through him at a time when this man is spiritually like impaired, and I I can't think that he had a functional relationship with the Lord. How could he, when he's doing that and not repenting of it? I mean. Scripture's quite clear on that. So look, I mean, I on one level it it's the curious nature of God's sovereignty that He He can use anything or anyone to lead people to Christ. If he can speak through a donkey, he can speak through sinful human beings who are doing sinful things. Um, but it I want to say that in a non-simplistic way because it is uncomfortable and it has yeah affected me, and I've had to grieve that um as well. But equally, the amazing thing is that the Lord has still worked in my life as a result of that. One of the things the reports talk about is the myth of homogeneity, that because someone is doing something good in one area, that when something is raised about being bad in another area, we turn a blind eye to say, Oh, look at all this, you know, this ministry that they're doing, look at all this great fruit. But I think it works the other way as well. Um, you know, if they're doing something wicked in one area still doesn't mean that the Lord, in his sovereignty, he'll yeah, I don't think he'll bless that ministry and bless them through that ministry because I think his hand is against them. Um, but he might still use it um remarkably.
SPEAKER_00It's helpful. Tell me, Pete, uh, what are some ways forward from here? And let's let's think in terms of the the next steps that we need to take, and and let's also think down the track in terms of a um a vision. Like where where do we get to? We're we're on a crushing path at the moment. We want to get to a wide open space. What does the wide open space look like? But yeah, help help us with what what are our next steps and where do we want to get to as churches?
SPEAKER_02Uh um look, I think first of all, we've really got to listen, listen to one another, listen to the voice of survivors. I don't think we've done that yet, and and listen to what the Lord is saying through that. Um, and I don't mean that piously, I mean that authentically. There just needs to be a lot of listening. You know, when you when you've been embedded in thinking that something is so good, and yet then suddenly you start seeing there's such a dark side to it, you really have to take it slow and to listen. And it just requires a lot of self-examination. So, you know, getting the knee-jerk reactions of the heart of defensiveness out of the way, and then giving yourself time and space to reflect and listen. And I I think we've barely begun on that. It's been very kind of febrile, exaggerated response early on. Um, some of us were unfortunately were saying it was going to be like that and wanting people to be better prepared, but it they weren't, so there this is where we're at. But I think we just need to listen and really listen to the survivors to start off with. That's not trite, that's just because they're the ones who are able to tell us what we need to hear. And we also need to listen to reviews. It's a worrying dynamic if we start casting aspersions on independent reviews. They don't have they don't have you know vested interest to tear down concerned evangelicism. They're independent for a reason. They've worked hard on this, they're not getting loads of money for it, not making their mint out of this. You know, they've the lessons are painful because probably because they're true, not because they're biased. Um, and then I think once that's done, then I think we need to start to really explore what some of those themes are and start to see, you know, what does redemption look like in that? Redemption always looks like a working with the good and seeking to redeem that, but also a you know, a refinement of the bad. And that's just gonna take time and honest and open discussions. And I don't think we can have those. I think part of the difficulty is if there is a culture of fear in Kasseli Evangelicism, and sadly for me, the shoe fits in that I recognize that. If there is, then that stifles the discussion that needs to happen. So I think the cultural issue is the biggest issue right now. We need to create a culture where people can have open, honest discussions without fear of reprisal. Otherwise, we're never gonna get the thing that's in the darkness out into the light and it can't be healed. So the old thing of like sunlight is the best medicine, it needs to be brought in the sunlight, but people won't bring stuff into the sunlight if they're constantly fear of reprisals for them. So that needs to be addressed.
SPEAKER_00Uh let's start to draw things to a close, uh, Pete. I've often reflected on Matthew 23 in these regards, in that you've got a sense of a hierarchy and a good sense of what is expected of leaders. Um, there are those who sit on Moses' seat, and Jesus says there are Pharisees and teachers of the law, they sit on Moses' seat, and you should listen to them. Just don't do what they do because they don't practice what they preach. And then he goes and lambasts them for their hypocrisy and the whitewash. And it seems to me like you've got two things there in Matthew 23. You've you've got hierarchy, you've got leadership, you've got a correct use of authority that that is at least possible. And then you've got uh what often happens, which is that the the leadership is used in order to abuse those who do not have the power, and there's the whitewash. And it seems to me like if you just go for the hierarchy thing, then you just have a cover-up culture. Um, and it's all about whitewash and all the dead men's bones are underneath. But uh conversely, if you don't have any sense of leadership, if you don't have any sense of honoring those who sit on Moses' seats, then you just have call-out culture. And with every with every leader, you you simply mistrust them, and and simply there is a cynicism that is that is bred. And uh John Putts asked uh a great question. He said recent events feel like it has made it harder to trust others, especially fellow leaders. Mark Menel writes very helpfully about how cynicism can be so harmful. How can we rebuild trust? How do how do we how do we not just descend into entirely call out culture and how do we resist cover-up culture?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, really helpful. No, that's that's a really that's a really good question. Um I I mean no, partly is recognizing that we want within a culture, I think it's Wade Mullen who talks about the difference between a loyalty culture and a justice culture. And I think we we rather than un you know unswerving loyalty to the cause of conservative evangelicalism, we need unswerving loyalty to the Lord. And that's not trite, that means to his justice. Um, so partly the path of justice is the way there. And I think partly the path of justice is again is careful. I do think there needs to be a greater onus at the moment on transparency. I think it's unreasonable for leaders in a culture that has been so brutally exposed to cry out and say, trust me, trust me, trust me. I think leaders' trust needs to be earned, and where trust has been undermined, it needs to be rebuilt. And the way you rebuild it is by transparency. That's why reviews are so important, because it brings transparency. And therefore, I think leaders need to be prepared to say, not don't you ask questions, but where questions are asked, here's the answers, insofar as I can give them. And and you know, public sin requires a public answer. Um, I think the the kind of pattern of the correction in the New Testament is as public as it has to be, as private as it can be. Um so private to avoid shame, but public to restore trust. And so if there are public questions about safeguarding and things like that, then where appropriate, those need to be publicly answered. Um, and it's not reasonable for someone to say just trust me. But equally, you're right, Glenn, we need to avoid the kind of call-out or the cancel culture, which says everything's a cover-up, they're all complicit in it, you know, those kind of broad speech sweeping terms is not helpful. And recognizing that leaders are mixed as well, there will be some leaders awfully who you know who have been abusers and some of those who have been exposed. Then there will be some leaders who are um unhelpfully loyal to those leaders because and now feel compromised and uh are worried about that being brought into the light, and there'll be other leaders who just you know are struggling with the complexity of it all. There are really complex issues here of you know, um, consent and spiritual abuse and vulnerability um and adults and being a vulnerable adult and governance and safeguarding. And I've got to say, you know, that the general safeguarding training you get as a Church of England minister is really poor and really inadequate for the job. And I know the church of England is looking at right now. So therefore, there'll be a bunch of ministers who've tried their best and got it wrong, and they need to be prepared to hold their hands up as well and say, I did the best that I could, but I I just didn't handle this disclosure well. All of that needs to be brought into the light without fear of people being lambasted and the whole thing being swept aside. It's not, you know, we're not seeking, I think people are not after a kind of a revolution and everything being swept aside, otherwise, there'll be nothing left. But we're looking for redemption um and healing and renewal, and that requires more careful. But I do think that commitment to transparency right now is needed to restore trust.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. Your your sermon uh false shepherds and the true shepherd, uh, we've got a link to it in the description box, and I do recommend that people um check it out. Let me let me just I thought that was the last question was going to be my last question. This will be my last question. Um, what what have you learnt about the true shepherd as you've been processing these issues? What have what have you learned about the heart of Christ as you've been thinking about false shepherds?
SPEAKER_02Um I think I've learned that he is far more well, I've I think I've learned just the the tenderness of Christ and the gentleness of Christ and the way that he in an amazing way uses his strength. You know, real leadership, real, real shepherding is one who uses that strength to protect, you know, your rod and staff come for me, right? Rod and staff are quite intimidating, but not if they're there to protect the sheep, not if they're there to comfort, not if they're there to even say, I'll lay down my life for you. And so I think real leadership then is trusting Christ enough and following his example and his work in your life to say, you know, to point people to him as the as the the true shepherd, the one who uses his power to build up. And the more vulnerable someone is, the more tender he is, and the more you see his care that a bruised reed he wouldn't break and a smoldering wick he wouldn't snuff out. So I think the tenderness and the gentleness of Christ and the way that that is connected to his strength and his majesty and his glory. Yeah, I think going, yeah, I've never seen that and never has that been more precious to me personally than in the last year or so.
SPEAKER_00Well, in the in the top chat, John Putt's been saying this is so helpful, really helpful reflections. I've I've found that to be uh the same, Pete. Thank you so much. Um before we say uh final uh thank you and farewell, uh Paul, what are some of the ways that people can keep in touch with us?
SPEAKER_01Uh yes, well, I think some of them might pop up on the screen. Uh in a moment, there you go. You can follow us on all the major social media platforms Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, and even TikTok uh as of last week. Uh generally, if you look at speaklifeuk, you'll find us there. Obviously, if you're here on YouTube, do subscribe to the channel. That'd be great so that you can get informed about what's going on. And if you're not so much of a social media person, you can go to speaklife.org.uk forward slash sign up, where you can sign up to receive our weekly email, which will kind of keep you abreast of all the bits that we're doing.
SPEAKER_00Fantastic. Pete Nicholas, thank you so much for joining us on the live chat. Thanks for watching. Yeah, thank you. God bless. All right, see you guys.
SPEAKER_01Well, that's it all for us. We hope you enjoyed this week's podcast. We'd love to hear your thoughts and feedback and comments on the things that we talk about on the show. So please do feel free to get in touch with us. Uh, you can do that by emailing info at speaklife.org.uk to let us know what you think, or do join us over on our Facebook page, facebook.com forward slash speaklifeuk, where there's always lively discussion. We hope to see you again next week, but until then, keep speaking life.