Hello everyone, you're listening to episode 360 of the Speak Life Podcast with me, Paul Feesey and my co-host Glenn Scrivener. Today we're talking about Missional Church and what that ought to look like. But before we dive into that, if you enjoy the podcast, you can really help us out by sharing it with others and giving us a subscribe on whichever podcatcher you use. And if you feel able to give us a nice view, all those things will really help our podcast get seen by a wider audience. And we'd be really grateful for that.
SPEAKER_05We have been in a series looking at sort of church two and looking at some of the abuse scandals. Last week we had a look at a letter from a Buddhist listener, which we thought raised some really fascinating issues about Christians and mission and evangelism. And our Buddhist friend said, Christians are preoccupied, perhaps even obsessed with bringing others to Jesus. The amount of time, money, ingenuity, effort, and sacrifices Christians spend to convert others is truly astonishing. You pray for it, you have conferences on how to do it, you celebrate it when it's successful, you vow to keep trying when it isn't, you donate donate money for it. Even the many admirable projects that Christians have to help the sick and marginalize off and have a conversion agenda behind them. And then here he says, could Christians suffer fewer scandals if they paid less attention to converting others and more to transforming themselves? And then he mentions about Fletcher and Zacharias, and he said they had no time to look at themselves, they were too busy planning how to save others. Like, ouch!
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_05Does the shoe fit?
SPEAKER_04Sure. Yeah, and I mean, uh, some people were a little bit kind of miffed, I guess, weren't they, that a Buddhist was saying this to us and that we were taking it with some seriousness. Right. Um, who's this person from outside the camp?
SPEAKER_05Right. We should listen to them. Which is fascinating because it kind of it it is the very mindset that he's critiquing.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, absolutely. But it strikes me, I mean, uh there are there are things, you know, in in the things you said where you think, okay, I think there are some not quite an understanding of certain parts of Christianity and why we're you know, and whatnot. But nevertheless, there were valid points in there that I think you know were worth addressing, and we shouldn't just throw them out because we, you know, feel like he doesn't get this or doesn't understand that. But it's interesting that uh we we've got this the uh a Buddhist looking in at the church and going, you've got some problems there, maybe if it's because of this thing. And then on the uh Ravi Zacharias thing, uh you interviewed him, didn't you? I can't remember the guy's name now. The guy who for years who'd been saying who's not a Christian, and he'd also been kind of going, hey guys, look at Ravi, look at all this stuff. And it was people outside the church who were able to kind of look in and say, there's some problems here, whilst most of us were either turning a blind eye or were completely oblivious. Right. Um that's just interesting, isn't it, that God is using people outside of the church to kind of critique the church and hopefully you know what do we do with that? Do we do we just push it away and go, nope, we don't need to listen to them because then they're not not one of us. They're undermining the mission. Yes. Or do we say, well, maybe God even God can God can work even through these people and and might bring a good thing to do.
SPEAKER_05I had a guy on Twitter say, Why are you listening to a Buddhist he doesn't have the gospel? And I'm like, well, he might not have the gospel, he does have eyes. Like he can see what's going on. And he grew up in the church, right? And he and he can spot things. Steve Boffman definitely and and sometimes the Steve Boffmanns and and the this Buddhist guy can spot things better than we can because we have what's called betrayal blindness, where we are very invested in being loyal to a certain person and therefore not seeing their faults. And someone else just looks at who knows a Ravi Zacharias and they're just like, that don't impress me much. Um is this is this really what what impresses you guys? And they they can actually sometimes see things that we that we miss. Yeah. And then through some biblical lenses, there there is the fact that the you know the the old testament saints were constantly like the songs that they sang about Israel was just like, ah, the nations are terrible, and we are the worst, we are the worst, we are the worst. That was like the chorus, you know, and the prophets were always the ones saying, No, we need to repent. We like there were oracles against the nations, but for every time they pointed the finger at you know the other nations, there were three fingers pointing back. And it was the false prophets who said, Ah, Nebuchadnezzar, you know, can't come and take us into exile. He never will. And of course, Nebuchadnezzar was doing the Lord's work. And those lying prophets were saying, No, our people are stellar. And it was the true prophets who are saying, no, we need to go with Nebuchadnezzar on this. Even if he's going to dismantle the house of God stone by stone, and it will be incredibly uncomfortable for us. You know, we need to we need to acknowledge the truth wherever it lies. Stephen Finch says, Common grace, people! Or is that the middle name to um Pulp's song? Common people. People always miss out. Middle name grace. Common grace people. Brandon says, All truth is God's truth. Yeah, right. And so it and so people are like, you know, why why are you agreeing with a Buddhist? You were like, well, it helps that he was right. It helps, it helps that he was speaking some some truth there. So we want to uh continue on in um in this vein. And we want to think together about the life of the church and the mission of God. Because what this letter was was pointing out was if we are not transformed people, then why are we going out into the world to say, come on in to Christianity, where the water is just full of sharks and scum, right? Like why like we need to we need to work on ourselves if we're going to have any kind of good news for the rest of the world. So um how do we how do we coordinate an inward look for the church to take care of the flock and an outward movement to the world where we seek after lost sheep? How do we do that? And so like I often think that like this this statement, um, both halves of this statement are are correct, but sometimes we put the emphasis on the first half and sometimes we put the emphasis on the second half. So that the statement is the life of the church is to be the mission of God. And so some people say the life of the church is to be the mission of God. So inward focus, get healthy, and you'll grow. But then others say, the life of the church is to be the mission of God. Yeah. And so the very purpose of any church gathering or activity or life at all is evangelism. Yeah, and out we go. And those those are those are two quite um different caricatures. Paint paint paint the picture of the caricatures, Paul.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, so I suppose if you say the life of the church is to be the mission of God, uh super uh super caricature would be to to not really have any focus on outward any any outward focus on evangelism or anything like that. It would really just be, well, let's do church, uh let's let's do the church thing, whatever that looks like, um, for believers in, you know, i i perhaps in the in the most indecipherable way possible. Yeah. So that someone who came in from the outside wouldn't be able to make head nor tail or any of it. Um and that itself, as the body of believers is built up through that. Oh, that is the mission of God coming to fulfilment. If you build it, they will come. Yes, exactly. If you build it, you'll come. And then if you flip it the other way, the life of the church is to be the mission of God. It's maybe this is something we're probably more familiar with in our circles, is that everything is focused on evangelism. So, like every application, doesn't matter what the passage is, somehow the application is there's three points. So found three points, they're all about evangelism. Evangelise, evangelise and evangelise. Yeah, you need to do evangelism. Um you have the conversations around the water cooler, you should be trying to get people into one-to-one Bible studies. That's what it is. Or your your sole purpose in working your job, you know, being an accountant, is really to meet other accountants and have Bible studies with them to make them Christians.
SPEAKER_05Because the one thing you can't do in a thousand years' time is evangelize. So that's that's the only that's the only reason specifically you're on planet Earth. We won't do accounting right now. May it come to an end. Um and so should we should we have a look at some of the caricatures? So let's let's let's first of all um have a look at the contemporant um caricature of so this is this is where evangelicalism kind of uh really goes for lowest common denominator, just seeker friendly, speaking the language of the kids, getting onto the tickety talk. I'd never do that. So let's let's have a look at contemporant worship. Wide open, revealing my tattoo so you know I have a past. Quirky transition to band.
SPEAKER_06Invite everyone to stand. Let's do it.
SPEAKER_05VT for the service, yeah, hypersaturated images.
SPEAKER_06I have all the answers.
SPEAKER_02A must have a puppy and of a baby from an impoverished third world nation speaking softly to draw you in, and then emphatically, driving home my point. Whispering repetition, still pausing, pain expression, prayer, so that the worship leader can get back on stage.
SPEAKER_06You will die. We call that Rotovation. Stunning.
SPEAKER_05What we missed there was um it it started out with um we're both contemporary and relevant, which makes us contemporate. Contemporate. So yes, Wendy says lol. Victor says me. Okay, Victor. It's not all about you, it's not all about you, Victor. Me. Teo says this rings so true. It rings so true for Paul that literally I know I just like what are the odds? Yeah, the worship leader. This is worship leader get up, isn't it? Yeah, reveal my tattoos from my back. You you get rid of robes and you end up just like having a different uniform. Exactly. But you always have a uniform. Get rid of liturgy, and you always have, hey guys! You know, suddenly. You've always got liturgy. Is this church in Texas? Yeah, that that's the thing. Like, if you've if you've got a population that is, you know, largely in church on a Sunday, you can get away with this shtick. You know.
SPEAKER_04I remember I remember seeing something like that. It was it was on um uh Chris Mores was talking about it on Radio 1. Yes. When where he said like over the weekend he'd seen a video of something a bit that looked a bit like that, where there was people being baptized as well and stuff, and he was saying, it was amazing. He was saying, I've been to gigs with less energy. Like these people were just loving it, and like he was quite, you know, they were actually quite gushing about it. Yeah, yeah. Um, yeah. And that's we love that. We always like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, play happy day again.
SPEAKER_05It's got that riff. Play play cold play and then just segue into sort of kind of Can I tell you about the time I went to the cathedral.
SPEAKER_04Tell it, tell it, I love this story. I was at uh I was at Coventry Cathedral, and I was it was a student service in the evening, and before the service, I was just there with my wife, and I heard this tune, and I'm thinking, I really recognise this. You know, like I recognise this tune. What is it though?
SPEAKER_03And then it got to the chorus, and the singer just started going, Lord, my heart is on fire! Yeah, and I was like, oh my word, oh my word, it's sex on fire by the Kings of Leon.
SPEAKER_05Sex on fire, no definition of contemplament. Oh dear. Because anyone who's a Kings of Leon fan would hear that and think, oh, I I must try out Jesus. This Lord is for me. But it's yeah, it's that lowest comes on the make the barrier to entry as low as possible.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, seeker sensitive. That's what it is. It's all about the outsider welcoming. You know, there's a lot of positives.
SPEAKER_05Get them in that, isn't there? Get them in. Um, but then on the other side, the um the caricature on the other side that doesn't care about any of that is well represented, we feel, by um the evil vicar, uh, as played by David Mitchell uh from the Mitchell and Webb show. Let's let's have a look at Evil Vicar together.
SPEAKER_00I think it's great the way churches have become more inclusive and open-minded these days.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I'm sure. I just don't think I'm really religious.
SPEAKER_00Oh, they're happy just to talk about stuff, and it's a great place to make friends.
SPEAKER_01Can I help you?
SPEAKER_00Hi. Um, we're new to the area. We've just bought three of the old arms houses. We're having them knock through, and we thought we'd just pop in and say hi.
SPEAKER_01Who the hell did you think you were going to say hi to? Because I'm not sure you've lived lives worthy of his attention.
SPEAKER_00Um, yeah, we're not particularly religious, I suppose, but I think we'd both say we were spiritual people, wouldn't we, Duncan? We're just interested to find out more.
SPEAKER_01Not particularly religious. Interested? Spiritual? Are you testing me, Satan?
SPEAKER_00With the colourful jumper I met last week.
SPEAKER_01She's gone, child. They've all gone, banished by the bishop. I know where they're going eventually. In the meantime, Davantry. Incredibly horrible and twisted people who are still unaccountably vicars. I saw you in here last week. I saw you reading the notices and talking about your views and eating other people's biscuits. We were all watching you from the vestry, and we all thought you were a much entitled. You're all entitled to Hammerfast musings on the divine. You've thought about eternity for 25 minutes and think you've come to some interesting conclusions. Well, let me tell you, I stand with two thousand years of dumbness and performant and hunger behind me. My mind of hummus in the full of a million peasants.
SPEAKER_00We all intimate the symbols of me.
SPEAKER_01That's a very recent amount of deal. Not one of them I think is going to be captured.
SPEAKER_04Big on. Big on your satanic anthouse conversion. So true that. I mean, uh Eleanor Bass has said exactly what pastors are thinking when people say spiritual. I think we should highlight though that uh that although this is we're caricaturing the other side, um, we're not suggesting that if if you are born that end, you are necessarily an evil vicar. No. It may just be very much all about the life of the church.
SPEAKER_05No. Not that if you're a Sika sensitive church, that you're as vapored as the other. No, no. But yes, and uh and what we respect about the um the evil vicar is he's he's not he's not cringy. He's not he's not a uh a quivering mass of availability, as uh Paul Vanderclay kind of characterizes you know most American pastors are quivering masses of availability, you know. Like me, like me. You know, I I want to I want to reel you in to my thing. And clearly David Mitchell doesn't care about reeling him into he's got his thing, he's stood on thousands of years, he's harvested the souls of a million peasants of a million peasants. Bafflement and hunger is his natural element, and that's um and what what I like about that is um there there is a sense of I know what we are about. Here is the church we've stood for thousands of years, you know, and we we have this thing, and if you want to come on in, um it's not gonna be it's not gonna be you know tea and cake.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. Don't be surprised if this thousands, you know, thousands of year old thing does not look like a gig at your local Starbucks or whatever it is, you know.
SPEAKER_05And praise God that it doesn't. You know. Um Tom James has only stood on two thousand years though he must have forgotten a testament. Yes. Many, many do, Tom. Many do. But um and you know and I I often think of like the Eastern Orthodox Church in in terms of a very slow-moving church that is just about trying to be um ancient. It's trying to be, it's not trying to be modern at all. It's going out of its way to be ancient, and even even if the language of the liturgy and the divine service is a language that has stopped being spoken by the natives, you know, a thousand years ago. Never mind. You know, this is this is how our ancestors did it. And and therefore, you know, when I when I spoke to Jonathan Peugeot uh a few weeks ago, I mean he's from the Eastern Orthodox tradition, and I kind of said, you know, we evangelicals we're so much like the person on the outside of the cathedral who says, you know, don't go into the cathedral, it's all really baffling. You're like, here, let me give you a little pl pamphlet with a thumbnail sketch of how the how the cathedral works. And that's the main thing, you know. And you know, so the the the evangelicals are outside the cathedral, in the tourist information booth, making everything you know understandable, explicable, right? Whereas in in the Eastern Orthodox Church, it's like, let me take you by the hand and yank you into this ancient building and you don't have any idea what's going on. And it's bewildered and you're awed by it. And you're awed by it. And it's the deep weird. And I sort of use this phrase on Jonathan Beijo, and I said, But you know, what I like about you, Jonathan, is you're very happy. You're deeply weird. He took it really well. He's such a sport. But he but then he he said, But it's not weird. And I was like, what do you mean it's not weird? Because like he he'll go into in his videos things about um, you know, don't wear um don't wear cloth that is of of linen and wool, you know, don't mix don't mix your fabrics. And he'll like dive straight in, or um, you know, why Jesus cursed the fig tree, or you know, and he'll go into like the cosmic mountain and talk about all this typology from the Bible, and it's all deeply weird, like from one point of view. And then he's like, but that's not weird, but that is the pattern of reality. And the Bible has given us these patterns of reality that are strange to us and incredibly strange to modern years. But if you give yourself to this and if you come on insides and make your home in the deep weird, suddenly you find it explaining reality to you. And you suddenly get changed by this ancient liturgy and the divine service and and all this kind of stuff. And and I think that's something we really miss. We we're just we're always on the outside with the pantomime. Uh the deep dive. Yeah, yeah. On the other hand, you know, you you meet a lot of people who um uh much more high church, certainly in an Anglican setting, and very often they'll say, you know, I I came to faith through the Christian Union at university, and it was evangelicals that converted me. And I I found something else, you know, in in terms of my my spiritual life now. And you s and you sort of think, well, would would they have found that something else if it weren't for the evangelicals? Sure getting out there.
SPEAKER_04The reason Do you think part of the reason behind that is that maybe as evangelicals because we tend to be more at the end where we say the mission, you know, the life of the church is to be the mission, you know, the mission is that we have such a focus on that that actually once people are in, we don't quite know what to do with them anymore. They go and do some more mission, you know. Like and so I think you know, when we talked last week about um you know, trend. Transforming ourselves, you know, um or ref self-reflection and things like that. Yeah, that's not something our circles are particularly good at. Yeah. You know, discipleship really just means go and go go and do more evangelism. Yeah.
SPEAKER_05Right, right. Whereas a pyramid scheme. Recruit some more people for the pyramid scheme.
SPEAKER_04So if you if you're into something, if you've gone into the church and you're thinking, oh great, and then you find yourself just in this shallow water, and you're thinking, man, I just want to take I want the deep water of something more, you can see why you might end up falling into the into like a high Anglican or you know, sorry, high church type thing, or you know, Eastern Orthodox or whatever, you know, because you could go, oh, there is something over there like that over here, it doesn't seem like we're getting anywhere near.
SPEAKER_05Yes. Um I mean a high church Anglican friend of mine on on Twitter, when I was talking about these sorts of things, just sort of said, Be careful what you wish for. Like if you if you think the grass is always greener on my side, he says, like, trying to get anyone to just name the name of Jesus. Sure. Yeah, of course. Beyond the Sunday is just is is difficult.
SPEAKER_04Um they say, like, if you the grass is green on the other side, it's probably because it's astroturf. That's what they say, isn't it? Yes.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And so I think there is, I think the the reason why we have these two polarities is that we're meant to hold these things together. We're meant to we're meant to hold the life of the church and the mission of God together. So I'm thinking of places like Matthew 5 from verse 13, Jesus says, You are the salt of the earth, but if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything except to be thrown out and trampled underfoot. So salt is different from the earth, but it's meant to be kind of distributed throughout the earth. So different and missionary. You know. And then you know, the next analogy is you're the light of the world. A town built on a hill cannot be hidden. Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl, instead, they put it on its stand and it gives light to everyone in the house. So again, light is different to the rest of the world, but it also spreads out into the darkness. You know, so it is it is both very distinctive and missional at the same time.
SPEAKER_04And that salty uh that idea of being more salty, like that we talked about that a few weeks ago with the John Stott thing, like his thing was very much about that. That if we maybe we don't put enough emphasis within our circles on being more salty. Um but if we were to be more salty, then of course that has that knock-on effect that we are salt in the society. And Stopp very much said, didn't he, if you if you look around at society and society's gone to pot, really it's the church's fault. Yes. Yes, it's because we've stopped being salty enough. Yes. So you know, if we want to bring people within you know into the church, being more like salt and light, yes, working on that within the life of the church, which then of course goes out into the world, has the effect of bringing people in anyway. Yes. Whereas if we just kind of think, well, we don't need to worry too much about saltiness, we just need to focus on doing some sales pitch Jesus stuff.
SPEAKER_05Right. Then our distinctiveness will be like completely gone, you know, and and we'll be trampled underfoot. Um and you know, in an Old Testament frame, if you think of Genesis 12, and you know, Abraham is blessed in order to be a blessing to the nations. And it's it's like the Abrahamites are not loved instead of the nations, they are loved differently to the nations, but they're not loved instead of the nations, they're loved for the sake of the nations. And I think it's that priestliness that we really need to wrap our heads around. You think of the Levites, and they were set apart from the other eleven tribes in the Old Testament, and so they were very different, and yet they could not become a commune by themselves. You know, hey, let's just be Levites together. And, you know, Bill, you can cook and it'll be fine, you know. That would not work, because in order to be priestly, they need to be representing the the other eleven tribes. And so it's this it's this distinction and missional, you know, character that's meant to go together, which is why Jesus then says, um, uh, in the same way, let your light shine before others, that they may see your plural, your plural good deeds, and glorify your father in heaven. So we're to be different because we're lights, but we're meant to be shining in our communal life on show before the world, so that they can glorify our Father in heaven. So our it is our life as church that is meant to be missional, but it's somehow we need to make that life on show somehow.
SPEAKER_07Yeah.
SPEAKER_05Um and so we've we've had a uh comment from uh Andy Stove who says, uh, any thoughts on mission through community, like in Total Church. Um yeah, well, I I I think um there might be some ways that some total church thinking can go wrong at times, but I I think it is what what they're always trying to put together is mission and community in those circles. And they they want the life of the body to be on show before people. I think one of the dangers of um some of the solo evangelism that happens in some circles is the idea is you go off and be an evangelist, and you go off and be an evangelist, you go off and be an evangelist, and uh we'll meet at meet up again on Sunday and refuel, and then you can go off on your Lone Ranger missions. Um you get that even with, you know, how are we gonna how are we gonna reach the cricket club for Christ? Well, let's let's make sure we've got one Christian in each team. You know, in the one Christian in the firsts, one Christian in the seconds, one Christian in the thirds. And I I always think, why not why not just have all three Christians in the thirds? Yeah. Because then you've got your light shining before others, then you've got the m the community on show.
SPEAKER_04And do you think that some of that is because we we just think in such individualistic terms in in the West that it's just quite hard for us to even imagine you know, to even think from a community point of view. Yeah. You know, evangelism is about me doing something or you doing something, it's not about us doing something. Right. Right. Um if you go as a group into a town to go and speak to people, we all go as a group, and then you go off over there, and I go off over there, and you come back and you say, Well, I had a good conversation, and you have a good conversation, and it's not actually a yes, it's not really a body thing going on there, right? It's just lots of individuals doing things and something else.
SPEAKER_05That's just rampant in the West, isn't it? You know, when I when I ask people, what have been your like standout moments of oneness with Jesus? And people will almost uniformly talk about I was sitting on the end of my bed praying and had this experience of Jesus. Or but even if they say I was at a Christian convention, it was always, I was just lost in the worship, just me and Jesus. You know, sure. You go to the New Testament and say, What is the paradigmatic experience of being in Christ? It's church, it's body life, you know, Ephesians 3, that we would know how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ, together with all the saints. And so we we're just not very good at the the together with all the saints stuff at all. But then you go to John 13, and Jesus says, A new commandment I give to you, love one another as I've loved you. By this all people will know that you are my disciples. If you have a gospel tract that you can hand out to a stranger on a train, you know. No, he doesn't say that. It's like, and but somehow our love for one another needs to be on show. So you can't be the Levites who go and form the commune and love one another by yourselves, because that's not priestly. Um that light is not shining before others. That city is not on a hill.
SPEAKER_04No.
SPEAKER_05Um, so you do so so what I do appreciate from the the total church kind of outlook is is this idea that you don't go and join the gym all by yourself. You know, you you you you you you figure out if if that's if that's why you want to join the gym, if you want to join the gym to be a missionary, um, then find at least one other person. You know, if that's if that's why you're doing it, then go on mission together. And we've kind of lost that really. Another um New Testament verse on how we hold together this this sort of priestliness, this missional activity, and the community. Uh, 1 Peter 2, you're a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, right? So this is all corporate. You're God's special possession, that you may declare the praises of Him who called you out of darkness and into His wonderful light. Once you were not a people, now you're the people of God. Once you had not received mercy, now you've received mercy. Dear friends, I urge you as foreigners and exiles to abstain from sinful desires, which wage war against your soul, so be distinctive. Live live such good lives among the pagans that though they accuse you of doing wrong, they may see your good deeds and glorify God on the day he visits us. And you know, sometimes we get twitchy, good deeds? Can't mime the gospel, man. Can't mime the gospel. Well, Peter will even say in 1 Peter 3, verse 1, that wives can win their husbands without a word through this Christ-like um behaviour that that they have.
SPEAKER_04So I yeah, I think the reason we get twitchy about it a little bit is because, you know, people will say, Oh, well, it's just if you're just doing kind of you know these deeds, or even the non-Christian does good deeds, you know, even the unbeliever does these things. Um but I wonder whether we have a deficient view of what it means to be you know doing those good deeds. Do we just think that doing good deeds is just being nice and doing things like that? Or what does it actually mean to live uh the Christian-shaped life, yeah, a cross-shaped life, yeah. Um, as a community together, is it more than just we're all quite nice to each other? Nothing too scandalous has happened, you know. In living memory. And I think that's probably why we get we do get stuck on the old deeds thing a bit. Because how many times I mean you've s we've all heard people say that, haven't we? The co the the thing about you can't just be nice because Mavis over there is not a Christian and she's nice.
SPEAKER_07Yeah.
SPEAKER_04You know, you need to talk about Jesus, and you kind of go, okay, yeah. Um but but does it should it look different? Should there be something different about the way we do things than even the non-believer does things? Yeah, more than just nice things.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, yeah. Keep your nose clean, stay out of trouble, you know, don't get don't get any trouble with the law. That's that's like that's setting a really low bar, and and like Christ is calling us to die, you know. Take up your cross and pour out your life.
SPEAKER_04I've been struck recently actually, so like um uh earlier in the year, someone in our community, um not a Christian, uh when I say community just in my local town, when uh she was a teacher at primary school, she just she passed away. And um lots of people kind of rallied round quite quickly, and you know, they raised lots of money for the family and um parcels, you know, and provision. And I'm thinking, I'm looking at that and I'm going, well they're not you know, the people the people are doing this are not Christians, yeah. And yet they're doing this amazing thing for this family. And just this last week, someone I knew passed away, and like already there's all kind of these things just giving stuff and you know, thousands and thousands of pounds uh given support for the family. Um and you kind of look at that and you go, well, what's these are people like these people as pagans, you know, and they're doing these amazing deeds of love for people. And I wonder whether part of it though is in my head was just going, but we're all doing this for people we knew and we loved.
SPEAKER_07Okay, yeah.
SPEAKER_04You know, whereas in the church, yeah, maybe one distinctive at least is we ought to do that for the people who hate us and have scorned us, you know, for our enemies, for want of a better word. Yeah.
SPEAKER_05Um don't even tax collectors, you know, love their own kinds. Don't even, you know. Um so where does Jesus say that? In Matthew chapter five, um uh you've heard that it was said, love your neighbor and hate your enemy, but I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be children of your father in heaven. He causes his son to rise on the evil and the good and send rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. If you love those who love you, what will what reward will you get? I uh are not even the tax collectors doing that. And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that to be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly father is perfect. Um that's one thing to say, is that yeah, how we are meant to be distinctive is to love even the unlovely and the unloving. Um I think the other thing to say is, you know, we we can just celebrate what people do when they show self-giving love like that, you know. And we we don't need to feel like competitive about that and kind of go, well, I can't compete on being nice. So at least I'll do the words thing. At least they'll be very distinctive in the words that I give. And you're like, well, just maybe don't compete with them, maybe just celebrate what they're doing and give to the same crowdfunder and and plod along doing the good deeds that you're doing in the church. And and hopefully those good deeds would be characterized by giving it to those who can't repay you. Um, and all those sorts of things. But yeah, we don't need to be threatened by um the common grace, the goodness, the the love that other people have. And I think I think part of it is like, yeah, we we feel like we can't compete with people being loving. So instead, we'll the the thing that will mark us out as distinctive is that we'll We've got preaching, yeah. We've got Bible preaching, angular words. The wordy people. Yeah, yeah. We'll be distinctive in our words because we can't outlove them.
SPEAKER_04We've said before the danger is, you know, when you swing so far that way, is it becomes we won't bother doing any nice things. We won't bother doing any good things at all, because we'll just do the word thing. Um so you almost discard any need to do anything and act, you know, live it out.
SPEAKER_05Yeah. Stephen Finch has asked a good question. He said, with the wife example in 1 Peter 3, the husband will know she is going to church. I think the criticism of not needing to speak is how will people know it's because you are Christian? Um and I think one of the answers to that is because you'll be drawing people into bonds of friendship and relationship, um, rather than at a distance just doing charity, you know. I I think I think what we're called to is acts of hospitality. And hospitality, again, is not um just having your friends over. Um literally the word for hospitality is love of stranger. So it should be those who can't repay you, it should be those um who are beyond you. And so um and and so therefore, how will people know it's because you're Christian? Well, I I think you will share the gospel of God and your lives with people along the way.
SPEAKER_04Um and let's and there should be, and and very much so that I know I think the criticism is that, isn't it? How will people know? But there should be something different. That's the point. Isn't that the point what we're saying? It shouldn't look just like being nice. Yes. There should be something more distinctive in the way we live. So that even if you had no words, yes, there should already be something people are looking at going, that's different to those guys who are not Christians. You know, they're they're there's something, and I think that's maybe what we struggle with. That we we we do just think it's where we just look the same. Yeah, that's the problem.
SPEAKER_05And I and we we therefore rely on cleverness, apologetics, um the quality of our church services and our coffee and our music as the bridge to sort of hook people into into the Christian world rather than love. Rather that, you know, we're we're if we don't invest in really counter-intuitive, counter-cultural, um, counter-conditional love, then that that's meant to be what hooks people into the Christian life. And so we go for substitutes. And so we have, oh, we're gonna have a series of talks about what Jesus would say about the European Union, or what you know, what Jesus would say about vaccines, or what Jesus would say about artificial intelligence, so that the you know, the man in the street will see the billboard that says, come and hear what Jesus would say to Bill Gates. And like um, and so we we we try to be contemporant, you know, and that's and and intellectual and show that you know, show that we can go toe-to-toe with the worldviews of our day. And that's what's going to hook people in, as opposed to, by this, all people will know that you are my disciples if you have a series of interesting lectures on artificial intelligence. Um I think going going back to the early church is is when are these actures happening?
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SPEAKER_05Um, it's fascinating. We've got we've got some slides um that we can go through, but um, we don't exactly know who wrote this. We think maybe it was Polycarp, who was a disciple of John, who himself discipled uh Irenaeus. So here is someone very early on in the second century um writing about how Christians are different from everybody else. And he says, For the Christians are distinguished from other men, neither by country nor language, nor the customs which they observe, for they neither inhabit cities of their own, nor employ a peculiar form of speech, nor lead a life which is marked out by any singularity. So um so again, it's quite diff different to um the Judaism that ended up rejecting the way of Jesus was was very much um you've got to keep kosher, obviously, right? And and and you've got to stick to the dietary laws and all this kind of stuff. Um whereas the Apostle Paul is like, okay, the kosher stuff is gone, and this is Israel going global. Um and so actually Christianity was really this incredibly universalistic faith that people just hadn't encountered before. Usually you were in your family, and the father in the family was the Patafamilius, and he was the priest of this little cult, and you just had your very domestic local parochial gods, and Christians are saying, We know we worship the God of the whole universe, and he's for everybody, and it doesn't matter about your diet, it doesn't matter about your dress, and this is absolutely you know baffling for everybody. No, like diet, diet is a massive deal for everybody on planet Earth, it has massive spiritual significance for everyone on planet earth except for Christians and the post-Christian West. Like um, but that was what was striking. So there was an element of um contextualization to the Christians. So if we keep going on that slide, uh the course of conduct which they follow has not been devised by any speculation or deliberation of inquisitive men, nor do they, like some, proclaim themselves the advocates of any merely human doctrines, but inhabiting Greek as well as barbarian cities, according as the lot of each of them has determined, and following the customs of the natives in respect of clothing, food, and the rest of their ordinary conduct, they display to us their wonderful and confessedly striking method of life. So on the next slide. Um this is this is very interesting about this distinctiveness of them as well as the um the missional character of them. They dwell in their own countries, but simply as sojourners. As citizens, they share in all things with others, and yet endure all things as if foreigners. Every foreign land is to them as their native country, and every land of their birth as a land of strangers. They marry, as do all, they beget children, but they do not cast away fetuses, they do not expose their infants, they are pro-life. They have a common table, but not a common bed. Such a great line, isn't it? It's like they're very generous with their money and their hospitality, they are very stingy with their sexuality. It's like a common table, but not a common bed. They are in the flesh, but they do not live after the flesh. They pass their days on earth, but they are citizens of heaven. They obey the prescribed laws and at the same time surpass the laws by their lives. They love all men and are persecuted by all. And there's one more one more slide as well, but I just I just love the the distinctiveness of it, but it's not a distinctiveness that is against the nations. It's a distinctiveness that is for the world. They are unknown and condemned, they are put to death and restored to life. They are poor, yet make many rich. They are in lack of all things and yet abound in all. They are dishonored, and yet in their very dishonor are glorified. They are evil spoken of and yet are justified. They are reviled and blessed. They are insulted and repay the insult with honour. They do good, yet are punished as evildoers. When punished, they rejoice as if quickened into life. They are assailed by the Jews as foreigners and are persecuted by the Greeks. Yet those who hate them are unable to assign any reason for their hatred. So it's such a compelling image, isn't it? Um, and obviously drawing very richly upon um the New Testament in terms of reviled, yet answering revilement with blessing and all that kind of. But yeah, what really marks them out is that countercultural, counter-conditional love, really. What would it look like to be a church like that today? I I think Tim Keller um points out things like that and says it's very interesting how the church of the first few centuries um would have been considered both more conservative and more progressive than our modern sensibilities. So, you know, so they they tick the box on on pro-life, they tick the tick the box on conservative sexuality, but they're also into racial reconciliation and redistribution, redistribution of wealth, and you know, so on the money and race issues, they sound like left-wingers. And on the sex and pro-life issues, they sound like right-wingers. And Tim Keller will be like, yeah, because they're from above. It's just sure. There's just no earthly. There's no earthly explanation for them. And what really strikes me about that is that the society itself is the apologetic. This new community that lives, that's like, how do you live? Like, how do you how do you escape the culture wars of left versus right? They're like, we found a way. We've we've found a way not to be entirely left-wing, entirely right wing. We found a way to be to be counter-cultural and to be different. And and then at that stage, you're like, well, if you want in on this, you can come on in. Um but it's a it's a it's a distinctiveness that is that is letting your light shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and and and God, and they will glorify God on the day He He visits us. I was preaching on um Philippians yesterday, and I was really struck by the Apostle Paul in Philippians 3, um verses 15 and following. He he talks about how the apostles and others um lived a cross-shaped life as models to others. And the word for the word for model is the word tupos, and it's it's the word for um an impression, a mark. And it's the very same word for in John chapter 20. Thomas says, I will believe only if I see the tupos, if I see the marks in the body of Christ. The marks where the cross of Jesus has impressed itself on the body of Jesus. And Paul says, Okay, you guys, you need to live cross-shaped lives, and that will be a model. And people will be able to look at the ways in which the cross has impressed itself on you.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_05And how does the world get to believe in God? Well, you've got to see Christ. Okay, how do you see Christ? Well, you see the body of Christ. And what should you see when you see the body of Christ? You should see Marx. Yeah, you should see the way of the cross impressing itself on the members of the body. And when Thomas saw that, he went from doubt to belief. What caused Thomas to say, My Lord and my God, when he saw the way of the cross impressed on the members of the body? That that's a mission strategy, isn't it? Yeah. Um and and at that point, when we care for one another and pastor one another and disciple one another in the way of the cross, that's not a distraction from the mission. It shouldn't be like, why am I wasting all my time, you know? And and when we deal with the bruised reeds and the smoldering wicks from Isaiah 42. Well, Christ, a bruised reed he will not break, and a smoldering wick he will not snuff out. And the care with which Jesus draws near to the brokenhearted and binds up the brokenhearted and the the wounded and takes care of the flock, um, that's not a distraction. And it's not like, you know, if you are pastoring wounded sheep, you shouldn't be thinking, oh, I need to get on just oh, come on, yeah. Checking your watch. Come on, I've got evangelism to do. The Titanic is sinking. You know? It's what we were talking about last week. You know, if if your one model of the Christian life is the Titanic is sinking and I need to get people to the life raft, then like, how much empathy are you gonna have with someone who's like, oh, I don't really, you know, I'm depressed. You're like, I don't care if you're depressed. And that would be the entirely right thing to do. If you're on the if you're on the Titanic and your friend is a bit, you know, down in the dumps. Yeah. Now is not the time. Now is not the time. You get the gun out and you say, Come with me. I don't care. You know, I've done that. Yes. Come with me if you want to admit. And that should be our mission. We should be, we should be the terminator, right? If that's our mission theology. But it's not. It's it's it's there is a body that is meant to be impressed with the way of Christ. And yeah, it's meant to be on show to the tour-watching world, distinctively shining out, but to care for our wounded is not a distraction from mission. And I I was just I remembered again today um what Mark Driscoll said back in in 2012, which um my goodness. Have a have a look at this. This this is really uh a point of view in which caring for the flock distracts you from the mission. Here's here's what Mark Driscoll said at an Acts 29 um boot camp. Boot camp, right? You know, army sense of what it's like, doesn't it? Yeah, here's the drill sergeant. He says, here's what I've learned. You cast vision for your mission, and if people don't sign up, you move on. You move on. There are people that are gonna die in the wilderness, and there are people that are gonna take the hill. That's just how it is. Just like he's got this mashup in mind of there's the Exodus walking through the wilderness, and then there are people who are gonna take the hill. And you're like, what are you saving Private Ryan? Or what's like suddenly it's become a war movie. And there are there are people that are gonna die in the wilderness, says Driscoll. And there are people that are gonna take the hill. And who is Mark Driscoll gonna pour himself into? Only the guys that are gonna take the hill. That's just how it is. Too many guys waste too much time trying to move stiff-necked, stubborn, obstinate people.
unknownRight?
SPEAKER_05If you can't take the hill, that's what you are. You're stiff-necked and obstinate. I'm all about blessed subtraction. There is a pile of dead bodies behind the Mars Hill bus, and by God's grace, it'll be a mountain by the time we're done. You either get on the bus or you get run over by the bus. Those are the options, but the bus ain't gonna stop. Wow. Wow. And that and that's and this is this is why when somebody mentioned Total Church, this is this is part of my reticence in jumping in with both feet to the Total Church thing. Um, co-written by Tim Chester and Steve Timmons, who went on to take over from Mark Driscoll at Acts 29, and had his own issues. Um and and I think and I think part of it is the life of the church is Um the mission of God. And every and everything is we're on the bus, and if you're not on the bus, you'll get run over by by the bus. Or we're gonna take the hill. And if you can't take the hill, then we leave you behind. Like whatever happened to never leave a brother behind. Like whatever happened. Yeah. Yeah. Brandon John Camony says, Oh, that the norm were not inviting people to church, but inviting people to meet the church. And to be the church. That church would be something people see, meet, uh, and want to be part of. That sounds pretty healthy to me. Yeah, I think so. But yeah, if if church is a living thing, and it is, it's because it's a body. Or it's a vine. You know, it's a it's a living organism. It's a it's a body, it's a vine. But if it's healthy, it will grow. And we, you know, this is this is mental health awareness week, you know, and you and you might think, oh, there'll there'll be some people who are quite, you know, into caring for those who struggle with their mental health. And then there'll be others who are more interested in the mission of the church. This different thing. And what what if we are the place where bruised reeds and smoldering wicks, you know, don't get crushed and snuffed out?
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_05Um might might that be what a modern-day lettered diagnetist might say, you know? They they had time for people who you know, you you go on Instagram and you're you're being told, you know, cut the toxic people out of your life, right? What if what if church was not the place that cut the toxic people out of their lives, but actually poured life into them and tried to be a place of healing? Yeah. Wouldn't that be an attractive mission? I think so. So, um, guys, great chat in the top chat, and uh do keep the comments coming in um in the comment section underneath on the YouTube video. But uh that should do us for today. We started 10 minutes late and we'll finish 10 minutes late. That'll do. That'll do. Um if you haven't joined us on the Tickety Talk, um, do subscribe to Speak Life UK there. What what what other social media can people uh be a part of?
SPEAKER_04Yep, Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, again, just search for Speak Life UK, you'll find us there. And uh you can always sign up for our emails as well. So uh speaklife.org.uk forward slash sign up, and you'll get a kind of roundup of all the kind of resources that uh we're putting out each week.
SPEAKER_05Brilliant. And uh this is also a podcast, so you can subscribe to the Speak Life Podcast on the podcatcher of your choice, and you can share that around as well. Oh, Feasy, thank you very much. Thank you very much, Clean Scrivener. And we'll see you again next week. God bless, bye bye. Take care.
SPEAKER_04Well, that's all for us. We hope you enjoyed this week's podcast. We'd love to hear your thoughts and feedback and comments on the things that we talk about on the show, so please do feel free to get in touch with us. Uh, you can do that by emailing info at speaklife.org.uk to let us know what you think, or do join us over on our Facebook page, facebook.com forward slash speaklifeuk, where there's always lively discussion. We hope to see you again next week, but until then, keep speaking life.