Welcome. You probably don't recognise my voice. My name's Thomas Thoroughgood. I have the great pleasure of being an intern at Speak Life, and next year I will be staying on as an assistant media producer. So I don't normally appear in the content itself, I'm normally behind camera. So if you have a problem with the visuals in, for example, our recent YouTube videos, might be my fault. This is the Speak Life podcast hosted by Glenn Scrivener and Paul Feesey. Usually Paul would be doing this introduction, but and this explains why we didn't release an episode last week. Just after they recorded the conversation that you're about to hear, Paul found out that his one-year-old daughter, Libby, is very unwell and she's still in the hospital. She's been through many tests and incredibly difficult time for the family. They still don't know what's wrong. So do pray for Libby. Do pray for the Feasies and do pray for the doctors. So this is the conversation that they recorded on Monday last week. Glen also recorded a podcast live cast today, and that will be released as a podcast on Thursday. Next week we'll probably return to the one episode a week format. Please subscribe to the Speak Life podcast on your podcatcher of choice, and a rating and a review really help us get seen and heard by more people. So without further ado, I will hand over to Glenn and Paul and the conversation they recorded last week about the culture wars. Should Christians weigh in on the culture wars? And if so, how? I will catch you on the other side.
SPEAKER_04Hey, welcome to the live cast. My name's Glenn Scrivener.
SPEAKER_02And my name's Paul Feasy.
SPEAKER_04And uh we're gonna think about culture wars uh today. Um Paul, why why are we thinking about culture wars?
SPEAKER_02Uh well, I mean, because some of the big things that have been going on, uh well, I say big things, there are things that have been going on. Yeah. Uh some of them in the news. So two things that have particularly been kind of brought head head to head with each other have been um uh an incident around uh a cricketer, Ollie Robinson, um, who has kind of been uh kind of has he been suspended from the team from the from international cricket, and then he himself has stepped back from all cricket. Yeah, basically for tweets he made sort of nine years ago eight, nine years ago, uh that have come to light, and so he has been kind of cancelled, so to speak. Um and that has kind of come up in the news at a similar time to um some articles around Shemaima Begum, um, who some of us might know as the um uh a teenager who uh when she was fifteen went to went off to Turkey and then ended up smuggled into Syria where she joined IS, she became a kind of child bride there. Um and there's been issues of there uh since then about her returning to the country, her citizenship has been taken away. Um and the real the real thing that's come up with these two has been well, sh do we forgive these people? Right. You know? Yeah, yeah. Do we forgive Oli? Do we forgive Shemima?
SPEAKER_04Yeah, and and the way that people answer those questions and the people towards whom they they kind of lean tends to sort of also um map onto people's political leanings a little bit. Yeah, sure. And so people more to the right tend to want to forgive Oli, and people more to the left tend to want to um forgive Shemima. Massive generalization, but yeah, of course, yeah. But there it is. We'll be talking about that kind of um uh culture war. But also, um, in the news, Maya Forestarter um was in the news uh because she won her appeal against a tribunal decision that's a couple of years old now that said that her view that uh sex is immutable and biologically based. Um back in 2019, they said that that was uh verboten and uh yeah Beyond the pale. Beyond the pale, and was not a was not a view that should be held in um modern society. And uh she has had her appeal to that claim upheld. And again, uh people's reactions to that tends to fall along some some fairly well-worn culture war kind of lines. Um and then also uh over the weekend there was a woke Christianity conference that um uh I did not I did not attend. Um, but Twitter was was a little bit bubbling with some of the things that were said on there, and I and I thought that one tweet in particular, one comment in particular, really revealed the dividing line um in so many of these culture wars. And uh I guess we're talking about the culture wars because I think Jesus is our way through the culture wars. Uh he was born into a culture war. When you think of you know the disciples that he had around him, you know, on the one hand, he's got tax collector Matthew, um, and he's got you know Simon the the zealot. Yep um like uh what one guy is stealing from his own people to get rich from Rome, the other guy is like you know, firebombing, you know, Romans. The the Romans, you know, um soldiers. And and that and and yet in Jesus' community, he's able to draw both. And and the the way in which Jesus handled that culture war was, you know, like it was to love his enemies. And here's a here's a radical way through the culture war. Is there a way through today in the 21st century? We we kind of um think so. Um but there was one other thing that happened in the news uh over the weekends that we think kind of cuts through the culture wars and cuts through the struggle between people. What was that on Saturday?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so Saturday, uh kind of late afternoon, early evening, uh as part of the Euro 2020s. Uh Denmark and Finland were playing, and about 40 minutes into the first half, uh the Danish player Christian Ericsson uh collapsed on the field having suffered from a cardiac arrest and had to be resuscitated. Um obviously he was taken to football, uh taken to football. He was at the football, he was taken to the hospital, um, and the match was suspended at that point.
SPEAKER_04Right, right. Should we have a look at uh what happens? Yeah, let's have a look.
SPEAKER_00And we're all training for him. Um it's quite stunning. It is you know, we're looking forward to the competition, and suddenly something much more important is at stake right now.
SPEAKER_04So uh absolutely sickening to see Christian Ericsson just sort of go down and and you know, he'd he'd been playing the game, it was it was about half time, just just nearly five minutes left to play, I think, of the first half. So he'd been he'd been playing absolutely fine for the first 40 minutes and then just like that.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, doesn't no warning. You know, I was saying to you earlier, like you some you know, occasionally we've seen this ha thing happen on the pitch before, and some players have appeared kind of unwell and then have kind of gone down. Um but as you can see on the clip there, I mean he's he's absolutely fine until moments before, and then just he's on the he's on the ground and seemingly, you know, at that moment he's he's you know he's stopped breathing and obviously they're there doing CPR and stuff very quickly.
SPEAKER_04And and these, you know, these incidents really draw people together. You know, you had the Danish fans and the Finnish fans saying, you know, one side was saying Christian, the other saying saying Ericsson, and sort of Yeah, and there's nothing more tribal really, is there, in our society than football.
SPEAKER_02And and the amazing thing is that uh in the midst of all that, like all that suddenly goes out the window as they see these people there, you know, as they s as you see someone on the ground who's literally, you know, fighting for his life. Right. And you know, you've you've got medics in there who are giving of themselves, you know, to try and revive this man. Right. Um it put things in pers perspective for people, doesn't it?
SPEAKER_04Yeah, yeah, as as one of the commentators said, everything else is meaningless, you know, like foot even football, you know. Yeah, even football. It is meaningless in the in the face of of death. And um, I mean th there were there was some criticism of the BBC for for showing this.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I mean there a lot of it, uh a lot of I mean Christian Erickson was trending on Twitter and the BBC was trending on Twitter, and people were saying it's absolutely disgusting that you know they've shown images of this man being resuscitated, you know, have you know wanna have a bit of respect for him and you know, a bit of dignity and his wife on the touchline there. I mean you saw in the the video there being consoled by the teammates. Um and some people were saying, you know, they clearly violated, you know, well, Ofcom and human decency is what they were saying. But but even as I kind of, you know, as even as I read those things, I in a moment we'll read a tweet that someone I saw that someone had posted about it. Even before I read this tweet though, I thought there was something there's something powerful about showing. Confronting, yeah, and and the reason people don't like seeing it is because it it it it puts something that's very real in front of our eyes that we don't see very often. And we've talked a number of times about, you know, when we did reset, we had John Bear on and he just says we don't really see death. You know, and obviously, you know, he Christian Owenson hasn't died, he's pulled through, he's seemingly gonna be okay, although they're saying he may not um play professionally again. Um but of course there is a moment there when they're you know when when they're giving him CPR, they use the defibrillator on him, uh defibrillator. Um at that point you are clinically dead, basically. Or I'm not sure clinically dead has a brain dead, I don't know but how it works, but your heart has stopped. Yeah, you know, you can't use the Paul is not a medical professional pick. Yeah, please don't take medical advice from me.
SPEAKER_04Um if you're collapsed, maybe maybe try everyone else in the room first.
SPEAKER_02You know, but for all intents and purposes, yeah, your heart has stopped. You have died on the pitch. Wow. Um and that's not something we see. Yeah, you know, we don't see death. Um but then I saw this tweet, which um you know, it just as I was just scanning down and it only had like one or two comments on it, didn't have any retweets or things, only about four likes and stuff. But uh someone said this. They said um much about TV coverage of Christian Erison's crisis, meaning there's much being posted about it. I've thought much about it. On balance, I think it was right to show the situation as it unfolded. Let me explain. One, we witnessed the fantastic medical team working hard to save his life. We saw the value of early DFIB and CPR. If you don't have any idea what to do, find out now. I need a refresher. Two, we saw the true face of footballers, ordinary humans with emotions, friendships, and feelings. So easy to overlook this amidst the Rasmataz. Three, we saw the value of teamwork both by the medics and the players sharing the situation, helping. We saw Mrs. Erickson being cared for by effectively his workmates. Four, so many people watch medical fiction on TV. They watch programs about heinous crimes or horror, yet when real life is presented they hide away or avert their eyes. An odd paradox. Five, many have claimed that the coverage should have stopped to project to protect Christians' dignity or sensibilities. But many of those suggesting this are probably those who are ca who would cowardly avoid helping others in distress, seeking to protect their own sensibilities. Six, we can all marvel at the good news that he's awake now, but we can all learn that when a fellow being is in need, it's up to us to do something about it if we're there. Learn first aid now. Best wishes, Christian Ericsson, the world's rooting for you. You know, and and I thought, you know, as I read that, you know, I thought actually I think there's a lot of truth in that, that actually it is good for us to be there's a lot of good that this person has pointed out what we've seen there in uh I mean I I'll be the first person to admit, you know, I think about I I don't really follow football. I watch international football, I don't care week by week about local teams. And I'll often think about footballers and just think, you know, here's a bunch of like overpaid pretty boys, you know, um maybe not that bright, you know, and and just uh you know unkickable, um you know, just kick it in that goal over there. Um in the jocks versus nerds debate, which side do you lean towards people? So um but you know, you can see those guys there, and they're a guy, you know, someone said, I don't know if it was if one of the commentators, or at least on one of the bits of which he said, you know, so and so there appears to be praying, you know, and those you know, you can see his teammates obviously very affected. Um and it's right, you do see them as people in those moments. Yeah, um, and of course, we did see all the the great work of the medical team doing stuff and coming together. We saw the consoling of someone, you know, his wife has kind of come down from the stands, yeah, um and clearly kind of in bits, and you know, you've got the uh the captain of the team, I think it was, and is it Casper Schmeichel? Is it Casper Schmichael? I'm not sure. The keeper was there as well consoling her.
SPEAKER_04Brad Hansen says the video put our fragile humanity on display. I don't think our world wants to acknowledge that.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and I think it's interesting that so many people were like, we i as this this tweet said, you know, you will you'll turn on the telly and we'll all watch medical dramas or just TV programmes with killing and death and all kinds of things in it without thinking about it. But and you know, as when we talked about this earlier, you said that's escapism, you know. Right. But what we don't want is to see the reality. Right. And of course the reality though is it was there on the pitch on Saturday and it was a reality for Christian Erickson. But what makes us comfortable is that we we kind of know it's the reality for us as well. Right. Like that that can happen, that life just can be taken away. I mean, we've kind of talked about that in the last year, haven't we, with the pandemic. But even then that's been it it never looks quite so dramatic, does it? You know, it's you don't just drop down right straight away. Right. Whereas that in a moment he's on the floor, yeah. Um and the whole thing turned around.
SPEAKER_04Um this this happened to me on the on the cricket pitch. So like my um my cricket captain, um he I think he was 40 years old, which at the at the time, like I thought this this this guy's the oldest man alive, you know. I must have been 22 at the time. And uh and he he bowled the ball and it was struck back at him and it hit him directly over the heart. And they they reckon it might have stopped his heart um momentarily. Wow. And he dropped to the floor and he stuck and his eyes eyelids sort of go back and he starts fluttering and and he didn't he didn't kind of kind of come to for another like three minutes or something. It was it was a really, really kind of hairy time. And um and then the next the next like week uh when I saw the ambulance came and he sort of you know came together and they they told him he was you know he was lucky to be alive and and um and afterwards um he said to me, you know, it really makes you rethink your priorities, and I've decided to divorce my wife and quit my job and travel around the world and act like an 18-year-old. Wow. And what was fascinating is is that like I I was identified as Charlie Church, you know, I I was the Christian on the team, and he took me took one side and it was he was like, Yeah, I've decided to re-evaluate my life. And I was like, I was about to invite him to church. Yeah, yeah, right. So I'm gonna divorce my wife.
SPEAKER_02Wait, what? Sorry, wait, what?
SPEAKER_04So, you know, these these incidents they they do make people think about life and their priorities, but um they they might not always make the decisions we wish to.
SPEAKER_02I did make me laugh though on the Twitter feed of of that that obviously here's that this great little tweet of you know saying, Isn't it great that we saw these people and so on? And there were two responses to that tweet. One said, This might be the best post I've ever read. Right. And the other one just said, Who asked for your opinion? Which I thought was that just sums up Twitter perfectly right there. Like we're back to the tribalism again.
SPEAKER_04Back to the tribalism. So what yeah, what what will cut through? Well, maybe maybe death will cut through, maybe our mortality will cut through, maybe it won't. Um and one thing I've been thinking about recently is Genesis chapter 14, which um I preached on a couple of weeks ago, and um I I think I'll preach on it again because um like a girl came forward at the at the end of um my my evening preach of it uh yeah, a couple of weeks ago and wanted to give her life to Jesus. Brilliant. Wow. Um and it's not the passage that you would ordinarily think of as your go-to evangelistic text. Not so much, no. Um and if Genesis 14 is not ringing any bells for you, uh we've uh created a little explainer video, and uh you can get the gist of Genesis 14 in a couple of minutes. So let's uh watch that. In Genesis 14 we learn how to engage the culture wars. Here we are in the ancient Near East, about 2000 BC. We've got the Mediterranean, the Red Sea, the Persian Gulf, and the Salt Sea, aka the Dead Sea. So we've got the Med, the Red, and the Dead. Up here would be modern-day Turkey, modern-day Iraq, modern-day Iran, the Arabian Peninsula, Egypt, and here is the land of Canaan, the promised land, the land promised to Abram. Now in Genesis 14, we have the first mention of kings, as well as the first mention of wars, that is no accidents. Kings make war. So there are the kings of Shina, Elassa, Elam, and Goyim. They form an alliance against the five kings, the kings of Sodom, Gomorrah, Adma, Zeboim, and Zoah. So it's four kings versus five kings. And this is not goodies versus baddies. We've learnt in Genesis 13 that the people of Sodom were sinning greatly. They are no better than the four kings. It's not goodies versus baddies, it's just power versus power. And to begin with, the four kings rule over the five kings, but then the five kings rebel. The four kings come down to fight, and there are a bunch of battles listed in Genesis 14. But the upshot is that the four kings win and capture the plunder and the people from these five cities, including Lot. Lot is Abram's relative who had gotten caught up with Sodom and caught up in the wars. Lot is very different to Abram. Lot was seduced by the city of Sodom. Abram is different. He's described as a Hebrew, which means uh one from beyond. Abram is not a king of a city, even though he had a large household. He lives by the promises of God alone. He lives in tents. In Genesis 12, we'd read about how he comes up out of Egypt with great plunder. In Genesis 13, we read about how he spies out the land. That's an eye there. Now in Genesis 14, he makes conquest of the land. That's a sword. And of course, Abram is prefiguring Israel, which would come up out of Egypt, spy out the land, and then make conquest, which in turn prefigures Christ's life, who came up out of his escape to Egypt, wandered the land, and made conquest through peacemaking atonement at the cross. So Abram's story is Israel's, is Christ's, and it's ours by faith in Christ. So we can now look at how Abram handled the wars of his day, because that will teach us about our own culture wars. So that's Genesis 14 and the culture wars. Um and I think the reason why that can apply to us is that you know the gen the Abram story is recapitulated. Big fancy. There's a there's a there's a two-dollar word. He's gone over again and strengthened by the Israel story, which takes up the you know, out of Egypt and spy out the land and make conquest. And then Christ himself fulfills that and he um comes up out of Egypt and wanders the land and makes peace through his death on the cross. And now we in Christ are now children of Abraham, and and therefore we are to live according to the same pattern. And what is the pattern of Abram? Abram is a weirdo because he is a Hebrew, he's from beyond, he doesn't engage in the culture wars, he's not interested in whether the five kings are more right than the four kings, actually. And the four kings um uh are the northern kingdom, the five kings of the southern kingdom, and the the one thing we know is from the previous chapter that the people of Sodom were sinning greatly, so it's not like they're the goodies, it's just power versus power. It's just because Lot happens to get caught up in Sodom that he even, you know, is drawn into this war. And I think lesson number one about how to deal with the culture wars is stay out of them. Like do the Abraham thing. He doesn't, he's not interested in building a city, he's not interested in being a king, even though he's got a massive household. Probably he probably has, you know, two, three thousand people in it if he can raise up an army of 318. So he but he's not interested in empire building, he's not interested in power, he stays out of the the culture wars and mainly focuses on building up the household of faith. And as we bring that into the 21st century and we we think about the culture wars, I think, you know, lesson number one, stay out of them. Yeah. If you can.
SPEAKER_02Just think about that idea of you know, you go back to some of the I don't want to keep harping on but about this because we talked about this in so many ways, like the the the bash stuff about uh getting your people into positions of power. Yes. And I just wonder whether how that puts that in perspective.
SPEAKER_04Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. If your strategy is basically to um to influence the king of Sodom so that he could be mm a more Abrahamic kind of a ruler, like not so much. And it's not and it's not yeah, it's not about trying to um it's not about trying to affect the four kings or the five kings, nor is it just Abram is gonna be an individual all by himself and just crying liberty and freedom. Um he he is gonna build a community, it's just that the community that he's building is a household of faith built on the promises of the Lord rather than a kind of an an earthly kingdom, a tower building exercise like Babel. And I think you know, so so much of um so much of uh why we get caught up in conflict is because first of all, we're seeking power and we're just and we're seeking influence and we're seeking a p uh a seat at the table. And uh what does Abram spend his time doing? He spends his time building up the household of faith because he's got a promise from the Lord that his community will be as many as the stars, you know, the stars in the sky and the sand on the seashore. And I just wonder, you know, what what's the lesson for the church if we're largely, you know, involved in the household of faith. There will come times when we're called to choose between the four kings and the five kings.
SPEAKER_06Yeah.
SPEAKER_04And and what Abram does is he kind of he does go to bat for the five kings against the four kings. But interestingly, at the very end of Genesis 14, he doesn't want to take any money from Sodom. He's like, you know, once the plunder comes in, he's like, I don't want a penny of it, I'm not interested. It's all going to Melchizedek anyway. Way, he says, you know, it's all going to the priest of God most high, Jesus basically. You know, and and and therefore, I I think you know, people are gonna sort of call me a quietist or you know the Benedict option or whatever it is, you know, retreat people, let's you know, yeah. Um but it's it's clear that Abram's long-term goal is to build a household of faith.
SPEAKER_02So how does that I mean so there I guess there are questions there, like like you say about there will be times when you're forced to choose between the four or the five. You know, there are I mean I think generally it seems like sound advice that we shouldn't be involved in the culture wars, or we we we ought to in some way transcend the discussion. Um but you know, I'm sh there may be times, it's knowing I suppose when there are times to step in forcefully. Yeah. And then you know, I just think back to we were talking about John Stott a few weeks ago, wasn't he? He was saying like if you look around a society and you think like our society's all gone to pot, like actually that it's the church's fault because we've not been salty enough, you know. Right, right. Um and I'm just wondering whether there's any like how does that tie up, like you know, what does it mean to build up the household of faith then? Yeah, you know, in like in today's context, what would that look like? I don't know.
SPEAKER_04I think that gels with Brad Hansen's question here. Interesting parallels uh regarding Abram. But to add one more variable, there's another king in the narrative, Melchizedek, where does he stand in this? Um, and yeah, Melchizedek at the end of Genesis 14, he is the king of Salem, which is short for Jerusalem. So hello, we got the king of Jerusalem. Salem also means peace, so he's the king of peace. His name means king of righteousness, he brings out bread and wine, hello. Uh, he calls himself priest of God most high, and he does all the blessing. So, you know, he's Jesus, right? And um the the great goal in all of this is to is to bring things back to Jesus, to bring lots, to rescue him, um, and you know, even to to say to Sodom, it's he says to the king of Sodom, look, you know, I'm not I don't want you to make me rich at all, I'm giving it all to Jesus, essentially. And I and I think a community of of faith that centers itself on Jesus, his way of peace, his way of cheek-turning love, his way of surprising strength through weakness. You know, he only goes in into battle with 318 men, that's a very surprising, counterintuitive kind of a victory. What does it mean? I I chatted to a guy at the end of um my sermon, and he was from Hong Kong, and he said, you know, this this is he said, I I had no idea that Genesis 14 would be so relevant to my experience of being in Hong Kong, caught between pro-democracy people on the one side and the Chinese Communist Party on the other side. And there is a very large Christian element to the pro-democracy fight. And you know, at times the in those protests they sing hymns and Christian hymns, and um, because the the church has taught them a a different way to be and and not simply to be dutiful citizens of the of the communist party. Actually, actually, because they've got a different lord called Jesus, it makes them think differently about politics. And at times, they want to stand against the Chinese Communist Party. Um, and and I think, yeah, there are defin there would definitely be points where you would side with the pro-democracy movement versus the CCP. Um, but as me and this this Hong Kong friend were were talking about, there is definitely a danger of being more pro-democracy than you are, Christian. Sure. Yeah. And and for that to simply be thought of as a different political persuasion rather than a spiritual conviction.
SPEAKER_02Um couple of good comments coming in here. Wendy Lomont says, is there a difference between getting involved in the culture war and just politics?
SPEAKER_04Mm-hmm. Just politics? Or just politics? Um simply politics. Yeah, there is. There is such a thing as justice, um, and it and it has a bearing on society, and we'll we'll we'll see that in one of our examples of of how people conceive of the culture wars. Is the justice that Jesus brings simply for the individual sinner, or is there a society-wide implication for the gospel? Um, and I would say, yeah, yeah, there is, and this is one more way that we transcend the culture wars. Um in a sense, the abolition of the transatlantic slave trade was a real watershed moment um in history, in which, you know, up until that moment, Christians had kind of seen slavery as an evil, but it was it was like poverty, you know, what are you gonna do? You know, absolute destitution is it's evil, it's terrible, uh, it's lamentable, but it'll be with us until Jesus returns. And let's just get on with the gospel, people, right? Right, yeah. And what you had, you know, with with Quakers and certain evangelicals and and others was this conviction that the freedom that Christ has won for us in the realm of the church needs to be extended to the society wide, and they fought for abolition, and it was it was a culture war, and they and they took a side, and they took the side of justice and and justice for the whole of society. But I think from that moment onwards, um you can never wholly be quietistic, I don't think. Because I I I think the Quakers and the Evangelicals at that stage, they kind of carried the day, and they were like, Well, justice ought to have real-world consequences, and it ought to get rid of slavery. And anytime someone might wants to make a quietistic argument, people say, Oh, then you would have been quiet during the transatlantic slave trade, wouldn't you? Um, so there's gotta be, there's gotta be a point where you enter into the fray, as Abram does. When you enter in and how you enter in is a matter of wisdom.
SPEAKER_02Well, Joy Turner said, I don't think you'd advocate the church or people of God holding a neutral position on sin in society, however. Forgive me if I hear this being misrepresent your position, very thought-brooking usually when she said having a state church makes it tricky not to be smack in the middle of cultural, sorry, of culture discussions.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. Um, yeah, yeah, we're and and we're not neutral on positions of sin um in society at all. And we should be able to call out the northern kingdoms, though those superpowers, and we should be able to call out the sins of Sodom as well. Um and I think but I think our first priority is to call out the sins of our own people. Like the first person you you point the finger at is Lot. Like, Lot, what are you doing? Right, being seduced by the power of Sodom. And then maybe you even like call out the sins of of Sodom, even though they're on the side that you fight for, and then you point the finger at the rest of the world. Um, but it yeah, this is not to condone the evils that go on in society, it's not it's not whether you engage them, it's how. And what's interesting is as Abram trains up 318 men, like they're clearly handy, you know. And Abraham, I don't know how you picture Abram, but I'm I'm always just picturing a very, very old man, like Yeah, bearded old man, right? Who could be like tossed like straw to the wind, probably, and yet like he is uh he's a force to be reckoned with. Yeah. And there ought to be ways in which the church is raising, you know, what my my prayer for our kids is that they will make their mark in society because the psalms talk about and proverbs talk about kids being like quivers, like arrow arrows in your quiver. And it's the idea that they're meant to be shot out into the world and make their mark, and but they may they they're meant to do it in a different kind of a way. 318 kind of evokes what happened in Judges, where Gideon took on the Midianites, and there were too many of them, and so they had to whittle it down to 300. And and so, yeah, the way in which you engage is meant to be um a strength and weakness kind of a way, a surprising Jesus-y kind of a thing. But when they do engage, we're meant to make our mark. Um, you know, these are all sort of vague and abstract um kind of notions, and and and one of the tricky things is how do you apply it? Um, and and especially how do you apply it when talking to my Hong Kong friends, um, one of them thinks you're being too much just politically pro-democracy and not enough Jesus-y, and the other person says, No, but you're you're the other person's just being too quietistic, and it's just me and Jesus, and I'm not. And the real problem is these are wisdom issues about when to fight and when not to fight, how to how to engage and and and and and not, and Christians get divided over them, which um which is a real complication, and it kind of brings us into the the the area of um this first example of how the culture wars are kind of like spoken of in the church. And um uh there was a conference held over the weekend um about woke Christianity and the gospel, and um it was just interesting that Daryl Harrison um made a comment on Twitter. Uh in fact, he made a comment on his um in his talk, which was then quoted on on Twitter. And and I think here is here is where some of the culture wars um where the rubber hits the road within Christian conversations. Daryl Harrison said Jesus Christ came into the world to save sinners, he did not come into the world to save society. So you got you've got different visions going on there. And um, and it made me it made me kind of draw up this little table. And if you're listening on the podcast and can't see, I've got a an image that's got left on the left and right on the right. And um, and uh basically, and if you're from America, you'll think, why is he put left in red and right in blue? Because Democrats are uh blue and Republicans are red. But well, in this country, um labor is red and and conservatives are right. But um uh on the left of this diagram, um basically the point is all of our culture wars are in Tom Holland's phrase phrase, uh sublimated Christianity. It's it's basically in English place, please. So it's it's basically um it's a Christian debate by another name. Sure. These are intra-Christian disputes, actually. Um but but where we've forgotten the Bible references. We're hurling Bible verses at each other, we've just forgotten the references. And on on the left, people are more into the grace part of Christianity, and on the right, people are more into the law side of Christianity. Jesus kind of holds both together. You walk away from Jesus, and there tends to be some lean more towards law, some lean more towards grace. Um, on the left, you tend to think about society more and the kind of society you want to see, and you and you think in terms of collective, and on the right, you think in terms of individual and bring things back to the rights of the individual. Um, and again, like in Jesus, those two things kind of are very much together. Walk away from Jesus and they and they get pulled apart. On the left, you tend to talk more about equality, and on the right, you tend to talk more about liberty, about your your sort of personal freedoms. And so that's that's kind of what's going on when um Daryl Harrison says Jesus Christ came into the world to save sinners, he did not come into the world to save society. Um which seems and and then that sort of set off a little Twitter war, as these things tend to do.
SPEAKER_02Hard to it's a strange dichotomy, isn't it, in some ways. I mean, because what is society if not made up of sinners? Yes, you know. Right. And it is when you begin to wonder how much people's theology is geared just around their politics. Yes. More than anything else.
SPEAKER_03Right. Right. Right.
SPEAKER_04Uh Mr. Green on the Top Chat has just said here in the US there's very little to none of grace on either side of that dichotomy. Yeah. Um, and what we'll what we'll see is that the grace of Jesus is very different to whatever grace you know is supposedly espoused by either side. Because every everyone is is everyone is lenient to their own side. If if someone's on your team, then you give them a free pass. And we tend to and we call that grace. Whereas what does Jesus do? He says, Love your enemies. Yeah. Love the person on the other side. And and this is the way through the culture war. You know, Jesus, Jesus navigated a way through a culture war and he just said, Love the enemy. So Christians should thrive. Paul Vanderclay is saying this all the time: Christians should thrive in a culture war because Jesus was born into a culture war and he showed us the way. Love your enemy. Um, which we don't we don't tend to do.
SPEAKER_02And but what could be more distinctive than that? Right. I mean Yeah. It came up a few weeks ago uh on something else we were talking about, didn't we? That that is the the key distinctive. Yeah, really. Yeah. So everybody loves the people who love them and people who are like them. Right. What reward is there in that? What what have you gained?
SPEAKER_04Yes. Um yeah, exactly. And this this is this is how you know that it's not from left or from right, but from above. Supernatural, transcendent forgiveness. Um, and so and so what what would it look like to both think that Jesus came to save sinners and he came to save the world? Because come on, the world is a system. Like, like John 3.16, Jesus came to, you know, God sent what's John 3.16? God so loved God so loved the world. Yeah, yeah, I do know it. It's in the New Testament section of your Bibles, and and God so loved the world, and the world is a system that's allied against God, and it yet God loves that system, right? So he's loving his enemy, but he's he's seeking to save the world, and he wants us to disciple the nations. It's so interesting. You know, Jesus doesn't say go into all nations and or make disciples from all individuals among the nations, he says, you know, disciple the nations. Yeah, there's definite, there's massive, massive corporate language in the Bible. Overwhelmingly, just think about Adam and Christ, you know, we're corporately in Adam or we're corporately in Christ. And it just seems to me that what's happened is um in Jesus there's this society that's called the church, and I find my individual specific giftingness in the context of the church. I'm a member of a body, right? And I might be a little toe, and you might be a left ear, and and we we find our particularity in the society that is called church. But you step away from church and you either go towards the state on the left, or you go towards the individual on the right. And like the society and the individual are both really, really important. Um, but I think they make sense in Christ and in his church. But um, yeah, Brandon John Kemeny says, I'm conservative, but struggle. Uh the ins the seemingly impossible road, the state taking responsibility for so much, to individuals taking responsibility that doesn't lead to a lot of pain in the interim. Now, it is so true that the state has grown to um a size that would be inconceivable maybe even a hundred years ago. Like, talk talk to someone a hundred years ago, and you tell them, like, here is all that the state does, and here's the budget, and here's your level of tax, and they'd be like, You're joking, aren't you? Um, and has there been a sense in the last hundred years of of we're like we're like kind of frogs in the pot just getting boiling and boiling and boiling, and and um there is ever more of the state. But so I think that's true, and I think that is an absolutely right analysis. And if you're looking with biblical goggles on, you know, the state in revelation language is not particularly positively kind of what kind of beastly, you know. But then what you get is on the other sides, um, you get the libertarians and the and the and the right wing saying, therefore, it's all about the individual, it's all about the individual, it's all about the individual. Which, again, with biblical goggles on, it's it's hard to get that straight out of the Bible.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_04I think you can see how Christianity invented the individual. Larry Sidentops written a brilliant book called Inventing the Individual, and he and he says, look, before the advent of Christianity, um, families were everything, and you're a cog in the wheel of your family, and the family is the unit. But suddenly with Christianity, um, you start, and it's a long process. Christianity worked its way into first the Roman Empire and then through Christendom. Um, we started to be less, you know, families, tribes, clans, empires, and we started to become an association of individuals with individual rights and liberties before the law. That's a really long process, but there are very few proof texts that you sort of go to in the Bible that says Paul isn't you know an atomistic individual. Yeah. Um all the impetus, well, a lot of the impetus now for individualism is coming from enlightenment kind of thinking that's developed absolutely out of the roots of of the Christian gospel, but it has at times gotten divorced from the scriptures, and so the individualism that comes out can be unhealthy, just as the statism can be can be unhealthy as well. Um let's just go back to these images. So you've got, you know, on the left and on the right, um, when you come away from Jesus, you you come away from the law and then grace dynamic, and those on the right tend to go towards law and order, and those on the left um tend to go towards um kindness, I guess. Um on the left you tend to think in terms of society, on the right you tend to think in terms of the individual, on the left you tend to tend to think in terms of equality, on the right you tend to think in terms of of liberty. Um, and that means as we come to our second um issue uh of the culture wars and things that have been happening in the last week, uh, there's been the Maya Four Starter tribunal decision. Uh where did Maya Four Starter first come onto your radar screen, Paul?
SPEAKER_02Well, I I think I'd heard about I think I think the initial kind of um controversy was about 2019, wasn't it? And I think I was aware of it then because particularly because was that was it at the same time that JK Rowling actually referenced her?
SPEAKER_04Because she was she was the person that I stand with Maya was the hashtag.
SPEAKER_02Right, yeah. So um, but I suppose I hadn't really thought about it for a long time because obviously here we are in 2021, we're kind of two years down the road. There's been a little bit going on in the last year as well. It's just taking my mind off things. Um so it's only really in the last week or so that this has come back into the to my, you know, into my uh onto my radar.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, yeah, yeah. So she um she had a contract that was not renewed because she'd made some um social media claims about men being men and women being women, women being women largely. Um and you know, she believes that sex is immutable and not to be conflated with gender identity. Um and at the initial tribunal, um uh the judge said that her approach was not worthy of respect in a democratic society, and therefore, of course, um she could be discriminated against because this this view is beyond the pale, uh, which is kind of scary to say that, you know.
SPEAKER_02I think a man might be a man, yeah. And a woman might be a woman, you know, that's hate speech. Yeah. That's yeah.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_02That is a bit crazy, isn't it?
SPEAKER_04Not worthy of respect in a democratic society. Um, and so at this original tribunal, um Mrs. Four Starter was uh described as an absolutist, and she caused an enormous amount of pain that can um but uh she fostered an enormous uh enormous pain that can be caused by misgendering. Um so this decision was um overruled in the last week, and uh and so plenty of people who um are making the case for individual rights and the freedom to be able to speak your mind and say what you think. It was a victory um for such people. And and I guess you know, those kinds of people kind of lean right. And um and at that stage, what's interesting is that at that stage um Maya Foresty, I don't think, is a Christian, um, but you know, for for her feminist convictions, and because she believes in the freedom of speech, and um she is celebrating that victory, and a lot of people are celebrating that victory, and a lot of Christians are celebrating that victory because of course in the Bible gender is a thing, it's kind of a big thing. Um and and so, but it's just it's just really interesting. I've got my Genesis 14 um goggles on, and I'm seeing, and I like Is is this the cause for us to you know get the 318 fighting men and engage the battle? And may maybe it is. And what's interesting is that you know some Christians will say, Yeah, this is this is the hill to die on, because it's reality. Like if people say men are women, it's like saying two plus two equals five, you know, and all of reality has gone out the door. And so some Christians are like, let's gather the 318 men, let's fight against the the kings of the north. And other other Christians are like, come on, guys, this is not a gospel issue, you know, this is this is about gender, it's not about Jesus. And so we get into fights about whether it's right. But what as as um uh Mr. Green has said on um YouTube, yeah, is there a freedom of conscience ultimately? Um and it is it is certainly very wise for Christians to be on the side of um wanting freedom of conscience because we we want to be able to say what we think about Jesus without being cancelled. Um but then at the end of the day, the apostles got cancelled, you know. Yeah. And and the epistles are not are not full of the Apostle Paul saying, you know, petition Nero to see if we can have freedom of speech on this issue.
SPEAKER_02Umrageous that we've been arrested for saying this, you know, like let's form a what we're gonna do is we're gonna get a petition going in Jerusalem. Yeah, that we can then get signed, take to the authorities. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You never see that, do you?
SPEAKER_04Instead, they they rejoice that they are counted worthy of suffering disgrace for the name. Um which is interesting. So I I don't think you should ever like poo-poo anyone who wants to go into bat for freedom of conscience issues and freedom of religion issues and freedom of speech issues. Um and we sh we mustn't divide over like people who think, oh, this is the issue on which we need to engage. Um but I but I do think if there are some Abrahamites who are just hanging around the trees of Mamre and building a force, um I I think they kind of show the way. I I do think they should they show the way. If they're if they're just underneath the oak trees in Mamre, just kind of with a bit of shade kicking back, enjoying a sangria or something, at that stage we're just like, oh no, you're cowards. Okay, you're cowards, I get it, I get it, you know. Um if they if they are fostering the family of faith and raising up a small army that can that can in the way of peace like take take on the superpowers of the day, um, then that is worthy of respect. But I I yeah, it is not always the right thing to go into the fray, because of course my a four starter is correct, because she is.
SPEAKER_02Well, I agree, yeah, I think she's correct, yeah. And I think you know what you said earlier is is that the the the difficulty with so many of these things is it is a wisdom thing. Yes, you know, this where do you draw the line? Yeah. And unfortunately because we do draw the line in different places, what it often becomes rather than being fruitful in many ways, it just becomes a a division between those in the church, which then just causes argument, you know, arguments in the church. Yes. You know, I mean you know, even just having a conference called woke Christianity. Yes. I mean basically what we're doing there is friendly fire, aren't you? Right. You know, I mean all you're doing is slinging mud at another group of Christians, surely. Right. I mean I I maybe I'm wrong. Yeah. I didn't go to the conference, I've not heard anything apart from what you've told me about, but yeah, it seems to very much just be pointing at those guys over there who are who call themselves Christians.
SPEAKER_03Right.
SPEAKER_02But we're the chosen remnant. Right. And it's not like that could ever go wrong, is it? It's not like we've seen that in recent weeks of things we've talked about.
SPEAKER_04And we said it before, you know, it it can happen in in a country in which maybe maybe 40% in your city go to church on a Sunday. And so, like the like in your vision, like the the the real bad guys are the church down the road. You know? Whereas, you know, if you've if you've got like two percent of your town going to church on a Sunday, which is true of so many like cities in in the UK, you're probably not gonna take on the church down the road with the with the same alacrity. Um let's get on to the third example of um culture war uh in the last couple of weeks. So there was an England bowler. Um, this is cricket people. Cricket, if you don't understand cricket, I'm very sorry for you. But um Ollie Robinson um made his debut for England at the age, I think, of 28. And um he had a very good match, took seven wickets and scored 40 odd runs, and and um and yet it was all overshadowed by people having dug up some old tweets of his that he tweeted out when he was 18. And uh they were definitely unsavory, um racist, Islamophobic, sexist, um, all that kind of stuff. And you know, he eventually had people like Boris Johnson, the Prime Minister, coming out to Bat Freeman and sort of saying, Well, it's been a long time in the past, and you know, he's he's learned his lessons, and it was eight or nine years ago. But what also happened is that in the same week that those old tweets had come up, and most but most people were making the it seems reasonable argument that um there might be a thing called redemption. Yeah, it might be you might not be sunk entirely by your misdeeds in the past. Perhaps there is such a thing as atonement. Um But in the news cycle, also Shamima Begum was being spoken about because there's a documentary out about her experience and the other two of her friends who went from East London to Syria to join ISIS. Um, and the UK government has said she they've revoked her citizenship, she can't come back to the UK, she's in Syria. All three of the children that she had over there have died in infant infancy. And there's uh um there is sympathy out there for Shamima Begum because she was a teenager. And so on Twitter, what do you get? You get, well, if Ollie Robinson is a teenager and he can be forgiven for his misdeeds when he was a teenager, then what about Shamima Begum? Yeah. Because she was a teenager and she made a mistake, and why don't we forgive her? It must be racism, it must be because she's a minority or or something like that. Yeah. Um what what do you make of the comparison?
SPEAKER_02I mean, I I mean we I I th I think you've got to recognise a difference of degree between what has been said, haven't you? You know, Ollie Robinson, um the things you said were offensive and they were wrong. Yeah. Um and he seemingly is there is a level of repentance. But even if there wasn't, you know, is is is it the same to say, you know, make some crude crash jokes on Twitter as joining a terrorist organization who have routinely been you know murdering people for murdering, raping, you know, in in often horrific ways. Um I think you'd find it hard to say that that's equivalent. I'm just you know, I'm treading carefully there.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_04Is it okay to say yeah, yeah, no, definitely, definitely. Um but but here's another issue in the culture war is is you know whether words and violence are the same. Um and again, our Christian inheritance has kind of said, no, that the only sword that is justified in the Christian realm is the sword of the spirit, i.e. the word of God, and we've got a very strong notion of the words are one thing and actions are a very different thing. I think walking away from Jesus, people are starting to say you know, words of violence. Yeah, sure. Which I think will not end well for society. But what about? I mean, um back in the in the chat, Christoph um Keating uh said, I tend to want to forgive both. Um, but some caution is needed with people who are involved in terrorist activities. And I think Christoph there is is he's taking the kind of uh the third way, yeah. And it's actual forgiveness. Because I think actually people on the right who want to say, Oh, Ollie, he's earned his way back into society and he's kept his nose clean, um, um they they kind of is that forgiveness or is that giving a free pass um to someone because they worked hard? And then on the on the left, if those um want to be merciful towards Shemima Begin, very often that's um not according to the law, but according to Grace in terms of, well, she is an ethnic minority. Um and and she's had a hard life, and she's a victim in so many different ways. And for that reason, we give her a free pass. So it's just interesting. On the you know, on the right, you get a free pass because you've worked hard and you've put it behind you because of your good deeds. Yep. On the left, you give someone a free pass because um they're a victim and they're a minority. Um, and and both ideas are quite Christian, like in general. Yeah, yeah. You know, and and the idea on the left is is is is quite Christian, but still that's not forgiveness. Um, because so so often what we do is we just try to find excuses for people's behavior and justifications for it, and we try and balance the scales, which is not forgiveness. You know, what true forgiveness would be is to say that is inexcusable, therefore I forgive you. Yeah, however. And and Christoph is saying, look, I I tend to want to forgive both. I I think that that is the Christian way, but as he notes, forgiveness does not mean um that there are not consequences in terms of national security and wisdom.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. There's there's wisdom to be you know, you probably probably, you know, now Ollie Robinson has has said what he said in response to it, you know, he's been very apologetic and things. You're probably not looking, you know, they're probably not looking at him at with great concern. Yes. You would if you came back on your cricket team, you probably wouldn't be. You might watch his twit to Twitter feed a little bit, maybe if you're you know, if you were still a bit uncertain, but you there's there's no need to think, well we should strip him of his citizenship or anything like that, you know. Yeah. You wouldn't go to that level. But you can see there is still wisdom even in uh in being cautious around you know, in in the same I don't know if I want to say in the same way, but there there are people in you can see there were there are people in church settings who who maybe have past convictions for all kinds of things. Oh yeah. And we would say, you know what, we want you to be part of our church. We believe Jesus loves you, we love you. Yeah. But it is still right for us to be cautious. Yeah. You know, if you've got someone who's not gonna run the Sunday school fraud and stealing, you might not get them counting the money, right? You know, doing being the treasurer, you know, that's just wisdom, you know, perhaps. And hopefully the person would say that's probably quite wise as well, like knowing like temptations or something.
SPEAKER_04But yeah, exactly. And and but I I I I think outside of Jesus, you people tend to go for either law or grace. And I think there is a third use of the law, you know, there there is there is a way that you can use the law even for a Christian, and yeah, there are all all sorts of regulations that you should abide by, even if you've forgiven someone entirely. Um Christoph Keating says, No, Twitter crimes are the worst crimes in the world. Which he does clarify, he says, if you believe Twitter mobs, at least. Yeah. But I I I I think one of the lessons for me is that Twitter is not real life. Um, and one of the only reasons why Shemaiba Begum and Ollie Robinson were being compared is because they were both in people's feeds, because the news cycle kind of threw up threw up both stories and they both happen to be trending topics. And then somebody goes, I know, they're exactly the same. And and this confirms everything I've always thought.
SPEAKER_02I can imagine Ollie Robinson just watching this unfold, thinking, like, how how on earth did it go from this to being compared to someone who joined a terrorist organization?
SPEAKER_04Yeah, yeah. And it's because people think Twitter is real life and Twitter is not real. Twitter not Twitter is definitely a realm in which you should probably sit under the tree the the oaks of memory. Yes, yes, and watch watch the four kings versus the five from a safe distance. I think I think, yeah, so way weighing in on Twitter spats um might not be the best use of your 318 trained men, just just saying. But um and Brad Hansen says, trust but verify. Um yeah, in yeah, in in terms of um reconciliation with people and bringing them back after sin. Trust but verify um sounds um sounds wise. And and you know, trust is unconditional. Oh, yeah, sorry, love is unconditional, trust is not unconditional, right? Love is unconditional. Um, trust is earned. Um, trust is earned, and you know, and and whether you trust a sex offender with the Sunday school, um, I I would say that's very unwise. Um and there are pathways to to reconciliation. But um, yeah, there it there it is. It's um as we promised you, it's Maya Four Starter Oli Robinson and Mel Kizedek, um, and bringing them all together. So let's not let's not go to war over um which culture battles we uh engage, uh, but let's let's always be aware that the big job, I think, is building the family of faith, founded on the promises of God and and and and raising a family of faith that can engage at times with society, but in engage in a very counter-cultural way. So, Paul, how can people keep in touch with us?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, follow us on social media, so Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, YouTube, TikTok as well. Um, and of course, you can always get our emails by going to speaklife.org.uk forward slash sign up, and we'll send you a nice little roundup of things that are going on.
SPEAKER_04Thanks so much for joining us on the live cast.
SPEAKER_02Always good to have you. Take care.
SPEAKER_01Well, there we go. Thank you so much for listening. Any comments or questions can be emailed to info at speaklife.org.uk, or you can join the lively debate either on our YouTube channel or our Facebook page. Both can be accessed by searching for Speak Life UK. A like or subscribe there would be much appreciated, as would any financial help with Speak Life. We are supported entirely by the generosity of people like you. A one-off donation, or even better, a monthly donation, is so much appreciated. You can do that at speaklife.org.uk forward slash give. Thanks so much for joining us today and keep speaking life.