Hello and welcome to the Speak Life Podcast. Thomas Thorgood again here. You might be getting bored of my voice for these podcast intros, but well, there's nothing I can do about my voice, I'm afraid. Sorry. Um but on Wednesday we were thrilled to have James Carey for breakfast in the Speak Life building. James is a comedy writer. He has written for people like Miranda Hart and Milton Jones. He has written his own plays and radio shows, alongside many books including The Sacred Art of Joking and The Gospel According to a Sitcom Writer. During our breakfast, Glenn and the team picked his brains about story and comedy and being a Christian in that world. And you are about to hear this very conversation. If you enjoy this kind of thing, you know, storytelling and being creative for Christ, then you will absolutely love our new training opportunities. So to find out more, go to speaklifefoundry.com and we'd love to welcome you here. We're really excited to be joined by Sam Albery next week, and he will be discussing what God has to say about our bodies. So these are the sorts of fascinating discussions, theology, storytelling, etc., that go on at Speak Life. Without further ado, I will hand over to Glenn Scrivner and James Carey.
SPEAKER_03So James Carey, you are a Christian and a creative. Tell us how you first came to love both Jesus and sitcoms and see if you can weave those stories together.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I think they are in they are linked more now than ever. I became a Christian through going to what I normally call a ludicrously Christian school. So I was brought up in a Christianish house home. My parents would go to church a bit to the Church of England. But they sent me to a school where I I kind of caught the gospel. And probably around about the age of 10, 11, maybe 11, 12, I thought, ah, this is objectively true, whether I believe it or not. So what?
SPEAKER_03What was making you think it was?
SPEAKER_02It's just it just it made sense of everything. Um and I think and then over the course of the next five, six, seven, eight years, the people that impressed me most were Christians. Um I could kind of see uh what Christianity looked like in people, what the difference that the gospel made. So that was kind of a part of the process, really. And then, yeah, so in a way, my conversion to me is the least interesting thing about my story. Uh, but you know, feel free to ask a question about that if you like. But for me, the great passion was always comedy growing up, watching comedy. I'm the youngest of four, so my parents had stopped trying to regulate how much TV I watched. Uh they'd sort of given up by that point.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, you do stop caring at some point.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah, you do. So that's why I only have two kids, so I can monitor how much television and screen time they get. Um so yeah, and to me, the the only two things that the the the television existed for the broadcast of comedy and cricket, and I didn't really see the point of anything else.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Um so if something wasn't funny, it was like, oh, why is why why is this on? Um it's the news. Oh, okay. Uh even so, they could you know, they could do some jokes. So um yeah, so and I've always wanted to understand it, I've always wanted to understand comedy. What's happening when when jokes happen? And so it's always been that curiosity about jokes rather than writing or performing. So, although I am doing a shtick at lunchtime at some conference, um, and I have done stuff promoting books partly as well, where I can sort of like or conf, you know, like Keswick or Spring Harvest, I can sort of make a room of 200 Christians, 800 Christians laugh for between eight minutes and 90 minutes. I've sort of done that. Yeah, you know, I've done some gigs that have been gone on quite a long time, and people seem fairly happy even at the end. Um, but in a way, that's something that I can do, so I do it, and but I don't, but you know, and you um you may have talked about stand-up comedy, and I think we've talked about how there are probably the majority of stand-ups, they need the approval of an audience. Right. So and they and they they're nervous beforehand because they don't know how it's gonna go, yeah, and afterwards they've just got this amazing rush. They like me. Oh yeah.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And I'm I'm not nervous beforehand. Yeah. And at the end of it, if it's gone well, I'm like, oh, that went well. Yeah. And if it's gone terribly? Uh it tends not to go terribly. Okay. But when it does go terribly, it's like, ah, oh, okay. I mean, the room was weird, it's the wrong time of day. There's usually a fairly obvious reason as to why it goes terribly.
SPEAKER_04Yes.
SPEAKER_02Um, but yeah, I I I in a way I sort of come off, as it were, just thinking, uh, that went that went okay. Um, and of course it went okay, because it's funny. The joke's funny, it works. And I know that it works. Right. So if an audience don't laugh at a joke, as it were, that you that they've laughed at 15 different times beforehand in different situations, you go, huh, I wonder why they didn't laugh at that. Huh.
SPEAKER_03Um But your tendency is then to go under the bonnet to look at the engine and to figure out the mechanics.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. So in a way, hearing an audience, so that's why, you know, um I'm not interested in the edit, I'm not interested in um so with with with I write Milton Jones' show with him, um, and I sit in the audience when we're recording it and just think, oh yeah, they laughed at that. Oh, they laughed at that. Oh, they didn't laugh at that. Oh, that's interesting. Oh, they laughed at that. Oh, they like that. Oh, that was good, they like that. Oh, don't know why they laughed at that. Um, but normally you sort of keep score and you hit you, you know, on a good night you'll hit 85%. Oh, they kind of, you know, and then you a few jokes come up, yeah, one one or two jokes just go, absolutely, you know, it's just like a woof from the audience. You're like, oh, okay, I didn't think it was that funny. And there are other things you just think, oh cut, you know, you sort of want to stand up and go to the audience, oh come on! That's funny, yeah, objectively. That is objectively, you know. You laughed at the one, you know, you laughed at that one, but you didn't that doesn't make any sense, people.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_02But you know, you you're recording it once in front of one audience. In a way, that kind of maybe that's why I like sitcom rather than anything else, is because you're recording it and then it's done, and then it goes out. I don't even listen to it go out because I've heard it. I heard it in front of an audience, I don't need to listen to the edit.
SPEAKER_03Um and when you figure out, so they they laughed at this, they didn't laugh at that.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Um, do you go back to the drawing board? Do you do you go to a big chalkboard and you figure out the equation?
SPEAKER_02Um, no, you kind of note it. I mean, there's no way in which you don't really need to do much of a pulse motor post-mortem on jokes, because you just know that there's just a little bit of black magic to it, and they laugh at this, they didn't laugh at that. Um once or twice you just get a real clunker, uh, which is just like, oh, they didn't there's one episode we still talk about that you can't tell from the recording about Formula One, where Milton ends up doing uh there's like a London Grand Prix, and it's it was it was funny, and the audience were like, huh. It's like you do know Cars? Yeah, and you do know Milton's the funny guy, and you you didn't know that he was this is like his this is like series five, and so occasionally you just get an outlier like that, but there's no point in agonizing over it because it's like because it's gone, and next time it's like so I'm just trying to emad at a comedian and say, Don't you know who I am? Well, yeah, yeah. I mean that's why I mean and that's why they obsess over that one guy who isn't laughing. There are 800 people who are having a great time, and then there's this one guy, right? And clearly his partner, his wife, his spouse, whoever, just thinks this comedian is hilarious, and he's not buying it. Yeah, and that and so he you know, which of you would uh you know seek the laughter of the 99? They would go after the one, wouldn't they? Um, the parable of the lost comedian. Um and I think yeah, that's just kind of human nature, really.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. So, Christian at school, you go into university to study.
SPEAKER_02Theology.
SPEAKER_03Wow.
SPEAKER_02Uh, because I was interested and I thought it would be easier because I was aware that my academic career was probably not my future, and therefore I wanted a subject I could do whilst I did other things. So the plan was to study theology at Cambridge. Uh, Cambridge didn't like that plan. Okay. Um, so I applied the first year to do history because I really like history, I still do. And then I thought, oh, maybe it'll be easier to get in if I do theology. Uh, and it wasn't uh Trinity College said uh no, thank you. Um and other colleges also said uh no. So they're loss, they're loss. I mean, uh it's still it's still kind of annoying because in a way, but if I'd been there, I'll probably I would have been there with like Mitchell and Webb and those sorts of folks, um, and that might have scared me off. I don't know, probably wouldn't have done. But in the end, I got to basically go to Durham, like most people who fail to get into Cambridge, and uh I sort of ran the show for for two years. So I was in the review, the University of Comedy Review, um, in um in my first year, and then they all left, they were all third years, so I then took over. So I I ran it for two years, I produced Edinburgh shows and um kind of managed that really. So, in that sense, uh that kind of set me up for comedy writing, producing, directing.
SPEAKER_03How does one break into comedy then?
SPEAKER_02Well, the the the one way then which is still viable now is to sort of work your way up through the kind of sketch show comedy world. Uh I did an Edinburgh, I did some Edinburgh festival shows, uh, got nominated for an award. Um, and yeah, there was a radio show called Weekending, which was uh about as funny as it sounds. Uh every sketch had a weekending. Um and uh there's a new show which is actually I think has just packed up called Newsjack, which is like if you if you know anyone can write for the show, you just send material in the form, you know, listen to the show, get the format, and then send in stuff. So I did a bit of that um and I got stuff on.
SPEAKER_03And um can you remember that like the first thing that got like taken and broadcast?
SPEAKER_02It was it was easily the least funny thing I submitted that week, and I don't quite remember what it was. It might have been you know vaguely satirical, but not yeah, I actually I genuinely I can't remember. Um I can't remember. I do remember getting a joke on Rory Bremner um about Angel Harriet, which would probably not be allowed now, actually, because he's a white guy pretending to be Angley Harriet. You don't get you don't get to do that. Right, yeah, yeah. Um you certainly don't get to black up. On the radio, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, that's a TV show. Okay. Um so I got some credits to my name. I then ended up being a temp at a literary agent, and then they actually offered to represent me because my CV was just about strong enough, and my and a new agent was kind of looking for clients and stuff. So that helped a bit, but agents don't really, in my line of work, at least get you work. You sort of I kind of tell my agent what oh, you're gonna get an email from a producer about a thing. Um sorry I should have mentioned you know you were doing your own scouting for your own work. Well, but you do, yeah. That's kind of how that's that that's how it works. So, you know, she also managed, she might be able to set me up a meeting or two, but unless that there's an organic link there, those things tend not to go anywhere, really. So sorry, we've jumped to age. Yeah, there have been about 15 breaks really. Um yeah, so uh nominated for Perio Best Newcomer at the Emerg Festival, got a sketch on weekending on Radio 4, had a sitcom commissioned by Radio 4, first episode, one was nominated for a Sony. Um we lost to a special episode of I'm sorry, I haven't the clue. It's just like okay, well, we're not if you know that's not really a level playing field. But I did at least get to sit next to Barry Cry during the dinner. Um who prefixed most sentences with when you get to my age, you dot dot dot. It's basically when you get to my age, you get to do exactly whatever the heck you want. Um, and he did, and it was marvelous. Um I got I actually weirdly, through church, I got to know uh Sally Phillips, who had some had some mutual friends, and we wrote some sketches for a TV sketch show called Smack the Pony. So I got some sketches on that. Um that was quite helpful. And then, yeah, I think the sitcom, the radio sitcom, Think the Unthinkable, getting commissioned, and then actually not being terrible was probably the main thing that set me on a I did that, and then I was mentored by someone doing that by like a Paul Mayhew Archer, who co-wrote half the episodes, at least to the Vicar of Dibley. And then um doing that, that kind of like set me on a path of I did a radio sitcom, and then I ended up working on uh My Hero, which is a BBC One show about a superhero thing, and then I went back to the radio and I also did an episode in My Family, and then I wrote another radio sitcom called Hut 33, and as a result of that, I ended up working on Miranda's radio show, which um was already commissioned for a TV show, so I worked on the TV show, that went quite well. I then pitched a TV show with my then writing partner who I merged through Miranda called Richard Hurst, and we did Bluestone 42 for BBC 3, uh, which you know just about did okay. Um, and yeah, and that kind of took me up to about 2015, and since then I've been doing sort of all kinds of bits and pieces. I was also I did the C BBC show, I script edited that, I did some CBB stuff, um, wrote some books, uh, do a podcast about sitcom writing. Um so yeah, but I think that Thing the Unthinkable sitcom was probably the the the one biggest thing that kind of led, began a chain of events. Yeah. Uh that chain appears to have been broken. Uh but uh you know it was fun while it lasted.
SPEAKER_03And um Christians along the way, as they've seen you pursue this career, um have they been overwhelmingly supportive or questioning? What's the reaction?
SPEAKER_02Overwhelmingly but cluelessly supportive.
SPEAKER_03Okay.
SPEAKER_02So I think um fundamentally Christians today know that they need Christians involved in culture, media, BBC. That must be good, right? They don't know why that's good, and they have no idea what to say to someone like me or how to equip me, how to build me up, how to mentor me, anything like that. So it's just like, yeah, you're gonna kind of have to figure that one out for yourself. Uh, which I was very happy to do. Um so in a way, I've never had any kind of pushback or oh, we think you're wasting your life, or why don't you become a vicar, or anything like that. There was no I have thought about that, you know, a couple of times. Um so yeah, I think we're at the stage now where we're realizing there's a culture war and we should probably do something about it. Um but we sort of now don't know what to do.
SPEAKER_03Um so what should they say? So we know we want James Kerry at the BBC, but why for now? For now, why why should we want Christians everywhere?
SPEAKER_02So um if you don't like the politics, uh then uh then you've got to change culture because it might have been Breitbart or Steve Bannon or somebody who said that politics is downstream from culture. Yeah, so anything that the politicians do or say is only thinkable because it's within a cultural framework which has been put there by 2,000 years of culture and art. Um so if you want if you want gay marriage, then write Will and Grace.
SPEAKER_04Right.
SPEAKER_02Uh because how could you possibly be against this wonderful celebration of of people who love each other and they're so funny? What what what could possibly be if you like divorce, then write there's an American show which we didn't get over here called Murphy Brown, where she was a divorced woman. And hey, she can do it. So divorce is fine, isn't it, everyone? Divorce is fine, it's fine. Your kids will stop crying eventually, it's fine. Yeah, it's the single most damaging thing you can ever do to a child, but it's fine, it's not only legal, we're going to make it easier. It's fine. Because the sitcom. Yeah, yeah. No, there's a sitcom, they're all divorced and they're fine. Um, so it kind of creates its own reality field where everyone then legislates because life is some kind of a sitcom, which it is, uh, but it just isn't the show they think it is. Um, so yeah, it's kind of politics is downstream from culture. So if we're trying to build the kingdom of God in some way or another, um, and we want to engage with uh politics, which we don't have to, I think it's a good case for just saying I just forget it. You know, that the Benedict option is an option, you know. I think that's I don't think that's a terrible idea. But the problem is they sort of know the people who really don't like the gospel, they do kind of know that you can't just let people retreat and get stronger and come back. They are gonna sort of come after you. Um there is a long heritage of um kill them, kill them all. Uh so I don't know how that's gonna play out in my lifetime, but I think it probably will in some way or another.
SPEAKER_03Um so against that, you're you're saying don't just pick it um Murphy Brown, don't just don't just pick it Jerry Springer the opera.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Um what's the what's the positive alternative?
SPEAKER_02Uh write stuff, make stuff, do stuff, make loads of it because 90% of it will be bad.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Um 90% of secular art and culture is bad, yeah, and the 10% kind of survives. I think that's one of the problems is Christians now know we probably need to do something about it, but we want to kind of short circuit the creative process. Can we just commission stuff that's good? Oh, yeah. I haven't thought of that. That's a really good idea. Yeah, because we were making loads of bad thank goodness you're here. Yeah, yeah. I was hoping to commission a good film. Oh uh, we've written a bad one. We were hoping to we were hoping to make nine of those first. Um I think that so in a way, I think it's when when somebody asked me on Facebook the other day, and I think I sort of on the edge group sort of was my my I'm just gonna bang that drum continually, really, because I'm not terribly interested in anything else people are talking about. But it's like, look at what the Church of Wales have done, same-sex marriage, blah blah blah. And I just said we've lost this because we we lost the culture war a hundred years ago, uh possibly six hundred years ago. Um or at least in Reformation, um, you know, that's when we basically stopped fighting the culture war. Um, so uh this is all downstream from that. So if you don't like these decisions and these results, then we're gonna have to do something about it. Well, what should we do? Do we need a Christian production company? It's like, yeah, we probably need about 40. Um, we need hundreds of millions of pounds. We don't just need well, someone made a thing. There was a YouTube video, wasn't there, about Christianity, which was quite good. Yeah, yeah. It's like, yeah, we kind of need an absolute ton of that stuff.
SPEAKER_03A ton of channels.
SPEAKER_02Ton of channels, because loads of it will be fine, some will be bad, some will be good. The stuff that initially looks awful turns out to be absolute genius. Yeah, the stuff that someone makes now. Which may it seems to be weird and incoherent will be rediscovered in eight years, and people will go, This person was ahead of their time. And you know. So I I think that's kind of so the the import I so I think people get the importance of it, and I think all of the usual suspects know this, but they just can't bring themselves to it's just always cheaper to fund evangelism because you kind of know what it's doing. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03Um it's like uh So the stuff that you want to produce is not just someone uh talking to camera and saying easy divorce is a mistake.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah, no one no one no one's persuaded by that.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. So instead, what kind of stuff do we need to produce?
SPEAKER_02We just need to produce stuff about everything, but with a Christian worldview kind of sort of baked into it, but at least part of the discussion, part of the character, part of the mix.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Um, you know, you don't you know I'm not advocating faith films, which is a thing in America, we don't get them over here where fundamentally people become Christians in the movie.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. We are led through a prayer of commitment by act three.
SPEAKER_02I don't think I've ever seen one, but I feel like I have.
SPEAKER_03So what kind of what kind of content?
SPEAKER_02Well, I think there are two two things here, but they're the they're the same piece, and I think that's something that I keep saying. So I teach people how to write sitcoms, I've got a video course, I have a podcast, I sort of I kind of leverage and monetize that a bit. Um I think the thing that people have a hard time getting their heads around is how unbelievably wasteful the creative process is. And so, and this applies on a I'm trying to write something level, and also I'm trying to change the culture on a micro level when you're trying to write something, it's it's a wasteful process, but then also if you're trying to change a culture, you need to commission just so much more stuff than you think you need to, and I think that's kind of like the next big battle that we're gonna have to, you know, because at the moment you've got a few people investing large amounts of money, although in the grand scheme of things, small amounts of money, expecting particular outcomes and results. That's kind of not how the culture war works.
SPEAKER_03Um, so but you're talking about the culture war, yeah. So, how do how do you wage a culture war Christianly?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, that's a good question. I think you have confidence in in a Christian worldview because, in a way, I mean, I some people sort of talk about is there such a thing as Christian art and being perverse and Chestitonian. I'm just gonna flip that and say, no, no, no, all art is Christian because the world is Christian, right? It's just some people don't know it.
SPEAKER_04Right.
SPEAKER_02And so the reason that Christian themes work artistically is because that's that's kind of part of our firmware, yeah. You know, that is going with the grain of the universe. So I think you've got a hard time doing anything other than something that's Christian.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Although people are having a pretty good go. But in a way, I think that there's been this really interesting shift, because I used to say, and I think I oh I don't need to say I still say it, you can't have a nihilistic sitcom. Because a sitcom, a nihilistic sitcom inherently, so a sitcom inherently has a morality baked into it. And if somebody, if if you have a liar on scene one, their lie will be exposed. If you have a proud person, they will be humbled. Right. If you have, you know, that that's how it works. People in sitcoms don't get away with it. They spend 20 minutes trying to get away with it and making it worse and making it worse and making it worse until eventually all hope is lost. They have to get on their knees, they have to say something, they have to do the one thing, they have to apologize to the one person they didn't what they've been avoiding for the last 19 minutes of screen time. Um, you know, these are all really. I mean, if I did write another book, it would probably be the theology of sitcom because they're like, this is how all sitcoms work.
SPEAKER_03Yes.
SPEAKER_02But then you get this kind of desire for existentialism, and you've got this huge, you've now got a generation, two generations, now three generations potentially, of people who've had religion eviscerated from their education, so they don't have a coherent worldview of any kind, so they don't really see why in a sitcom one event needs to lead to another.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_02So why can't we just have a nihilistic sitcom? Because no one will watch it, because no one will like it. They won't know why they don't like it. Um, but then you get but but what you can do is you can fudge it. So now you can have a box set where you have a whole load of things that's kind of meaningless, strange, this appears to be going the wrong way, and then you land it in the very, very final finale. You you do tie it all up.
SPEAKER_04Right.
SPEAKER_02So even something as it's not Game of Thrones isn't nihilistic, but it's it's pretty um uh power, it's pretty Nietzschean, isn't it? It's power, power, power, power. Everything's power. Wow, talk about a Christian ending uh where everything kind of ties up fairly neatly and the crippled boy is king. What? And people were kind of you know, people were really angry about the last series of Game of Thrones. Um and I just watched the ending and just thought, yeah, that's all seems about right. Yeah, uh, and I don't think you could have had any other ending really.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Uh any other ending would have basically opened itself to another series because it hasn't been resolved.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah. So we're we're all very close to modern until our favourite show ends. Yeah. Then we know how it should have ended.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_03It says who?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. So um, although the problem with sitcoms particularly is, and this is why the last ever sitcom, look, the last ever episode of a sitcom is normally a complete disaster, is because you're trying to tie up something that's been set up to be untie-upable.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_02So, you know, despite being a massive Seinfeld fan, the last episode of Seinfeld is just a disaster.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Um, it's just it's really bad.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, because the whole premise was no hugs, no learning. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, kind of.
SPEAKER_03How do you end without hugs and learning?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. So it's so yeah, that's kind of the and that's why movies based on sitcoms also don't work, because a movie has a beginning and a middle and an end. Whereas a sitcom is what I call a permanent act two. Yes. So every story is a store is a story within this, you know, and and Sisyphus pushing the rubber.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, pretty much. I mean, act and then you've got to do it again.
SPEAKER_02Act one is your opening title sequence. Yeah, you know, Veep is just like, hey, she's running for president. Oh no, she's not, she's gonna be the vice president and the show begins. Yeah, it's like here is a person doing a kind of meaningless job that isn't, you know, that is kind of meaningless and not, and it's just, you know. So act one is, huh? You know, she is like, but but we know act one because it's in the opening title sequence. Act three, we don't need because she's just she's stuck there for four years, and we all have I've not I trust I don't watch Veep because I find it quite confusing. Um it's just it just moves really fast, and it's also quite mean. I don't I don't particularly like it, but I mean I admire it, but I just don't particularly want to watch it. Um so yeah, so in a way that what and that's what I like about sitcoms is that is the actual that is the world we live in.
SPEAKER_04Right.
SPEAKER_02So we don't really see act one and act three in our own lives, particularly. We just live in a permanent act two where every other character walks into your life and pretty much says what you thought they were gonna say. Yeah, you know, your mum phones at a particular time of day, and you're like, oh okay, I know what she I know I know what this is about.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02And then you know, she says what she says, and you go, Yep.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_02We're having the same conversation again.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_02It's like that's a sitcom.
SPEAKER_03Which is life under the sun in Ecclesiastes language. Okay. You know, the the the seasons turn, you know, Ecclesiastes three, there's a time for everything, but it it returns you back to its course. And the sun runs its course and comes back, sun runs its course.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Tell me the difference with a film.
SPEAKER_02So a film is somebody starts in one place thinking one thing, and they are changed by their adventure, by their story, so that by act three, they are a different person in some way. Unless presumably it's a superhero movie, uh, where they don't change and it's basically one grand drama.
SPEAKER_03Yes. Because they're setting you up for the seat.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, exactly. Yeah, the whole thing is is for that. And yeah. I'm fine with that.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Hello, it's me again for the middle part of the episode. Hope you're enjoying the podcast. It was really great to meet with James Carey and hear his insights. Just a quick reminder that if you would like to join us for these sorts of discussions about theology and creativity, as well as hands-on filmmaking skills, just go to speaklifefoundry.com. You can find out more there, and also book a place. Back to James and Glenn.
SPEAKER_02Um, but a movie classically is you know shouldn't have a sequel because it has an ending.
SPEAKER_04Right.
SPEAKER_02Um, so and so either the you know, then there are all these different frameworks of what a story is, and I'm not that persuaded by that. I just tried to read the seven basic plots book.
SPEAKER_03Christopher Brooker.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, didn't buy it really. Um it's like they're they're all basically a quest. And so when he says, Oh, there's this story and there's this story, I'm just thinking, yeah, that is that story.
SPEAKER_03Can we remember the seven? Is there's like Voyager Return, yeah, the quest, yeah. There's comedy, tragedy, romance, rags to riches. Yeah. Two forces, good and evil, colliding, I think.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I don't know. There's one with a dog. Have you said overcoming the monster? There's one with a slightly bigger dog. Overcoming the monster, yeah. Overcoming the monster. I mean, they're all quests. Yeah. Overcome the monster. Yeah. Go from rags to riches. It's just like I don't I I literally I don't I don't think that survives any serious scrutiny from someone whose job it is to come up with stories for a living.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Um that that would be my take.
SPEAKER_03But there is a great there is a grain to the universe. Oh, yeah, yeah, sure.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, no, but it's but it's more that these themes are all quests and subsets of the grand quest. Kind of, yeah. I think it is, yeah. Yes.
SPEAKER_03The hero has a thousand masks, but yeah, I think so.
SPEAKER_02So, in a way, I so they're all different kinds of story, but I don't think they're fundamentally different from each other in any way.
SPEAKER_04Yes.
SPEAKER_02Because the character is trying to achieve an outcome. They have a quest, what is their quest? How do they go about it?
SPEAKER_03Sometimes they succeed, we'll call it a comedy, sometimes they fail, we'll call it a tragedy.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, kind of, yeah. I mean that that yeah, but I would say that that's that's a difference in sort of outcome and tone rather than this is a different type of story. It's like, oh I don't think it is.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Um But maybe we have identified one difference. In in the there's the sitcom genre, which I guess feels a lot more Eastern in its telling of history, that it's cyclical, and you you sort of you descend from the golden age down to the iron age, and then you you know cycle back and cycle back and cycle back.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I don't I don't I don't particularly want to dignify Eastern philosophy with that because I think it's Christian, I don't think it's Eastern. Um because I mean I do this thing, I so I do this talk, evangelistic talk, uh based on is your life a movie or a sitcom? And it's about the rich young uh ruler, man, in Mark 7. I can't remember. 10 probably goes up to Jesus and says, you know, what must I do uh to inherit eternal life? Keep the commandments, you know the commandments, um, you know, and then he says, You know, go and give everything you have to the poor. This his face fell, he went away sad because he had great wealth. Uh so it's he's a sitcom character because he is standing in front of the incarnate God, the supreme being, and he's like, Oh, okay, I can't do that, I'm not doing that, I'm not going to change. Sitcom characters do not change, and people don't change. Um, in order to change, you need miraculous work of the spirit to change, and even then, we don't change that much that fast. We would all like to change further and faster.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Um, is your life a movie? Is your life a sitcom? And I'm basically, you know, my my appeal is uh much as I love sitcoms, don't be a sitcom character because you you are the joke.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Be in a movie, yeah. You know, and I always choose short short shank redemption just because it's so wildly popular that there's a good chance that 85% of the audience have actually seen it. Um, because it's on TV about every two and a half months. Um and that movie looks like it's about one person, and actually it's about the other person, it's about Red, um, who is changed by his experience of meeting Andy.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Um, so Andy gets out of prison, he's not fundamentally changed by his experience because he was innocent to begin with, he escapes.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Uh okay, cool. Is that the end of the movie? No, there's actually there's 45 minutes to go.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_02So the movie's not about him.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_02It's about Red.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Uh my favourite bit on that is always, I always enjoy saying how it's based on the Stephen King story. And Red is uh a red-head Irishman. And at some point in the casting process, some casting director goes, Okay, go with me on this. For the red-headed Irish guy, I'm thinking Morgan Freeman.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, well.
SPEAKER_02And they they booked him.
SPEAKER_03How do you say no to Morgan Freeman?
SPEAKER_02But the line is still in the movie.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Why do they call you Red? Because I'm Irish, he says. That is awesome. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03So that's kind of a little bit of Dufrey is the pioneer who works his way out of the prison, but it's red that it gets changed by.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. I mean, Andy's I guess Andy's kind of Jesus in that movie. Uh he gives Red hope to survive, and then it's you know, and then because because the previous um he he's because he's on a trajectory to be Brooks. Right.
SPEAKER_03Who hangs himself.
SPEAKER_02Who hangs himself, who basically he's been institutionalized his whole life, he's let he's let out, and he's got nothing to live for, and he kills himself. And so that's that is Red's destiny is suicide.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And uh Andy gives him something to live for.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. But we we we spoke last night about, for instance, The Office, at the very end of the final series of The Office, you can give David Brent better than he deserves.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_03But you can't do that at the end of every episode. At the end of a normal sitcom episode, yeah. David Brent needs to be humble, you know, the the proudest film. Um whereas at the end of a film, we're given better than what we deserve. I I wonder if that's a like a lore and gospel kind of a thing. Oh that you you get your just desserts in a sitcom you might get better than what you deserve if it's a certain shape to a lot of things.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Yeah, there's something in that. Um part, I mean again that comes partly down to tone, I guess. I think the thing that I don't know, I I think the thing that works so well in the office at the end is that thing that I mentioned last night, is self-awareness. Yeah. So the daylight is let in, and there's a moment at which it turns out that David Brent doesn't care what Finchie thinks. That's kind of a really key moment where he you know he actually he gets the unmerited attention of a good woman.
SPEAKER_04Right.
SPEAKER_02He is offered some kind of unconditional love and it changes him.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And at that moment, the daylight's been let in.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_02You know, and it's just like going back to the old. I guess that comes from developing negatives for you know, the moment the daylight is let in, it's like, oh, the show's over, it's just all it's all overexposed, it's all so in a way you you can't go back.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Really.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. It's a great story, but it's killed the series.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah, yeah, which is like the classiest way of ending, yeah, I think. Yeah. Um, so um yeah.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, so get getting back to the the culture of war idea. We are not combatants with conventional weapons. Yeah, how how do we how do we be Christian and not just lining up on either side of left versus right or Republican versus Democrat or how are we distinctively Christian and all that?
SPEAKER_02I think I mean the honest answer is I don't know. But also I I think I think everyone I I I increasingly see to go with the war analogy, which I think is helpful, and it's all over the scripture, so I'm not gonna apologize for it. Uh we are all playing different parts in the war. Um, and I think, you know, if only the Bible had some imagery about us all being part of a body and having different parts, I mean that would be really helpful, wouldn't it?
SPEAKER_03If you could maybe insert it.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's what I think that's what they would have said if they'd known what they were doing. Um the it feels like there are just there are a whole load of different ways of fighting the culture war, and we're all called to play different parts in that culture war. And for some people it is proclamation, and it's kind of getting out, it's it's being either satirical, it's being subversive, it's being challenging, it's you know, um, it's just being overt. Um and that works for some people, um, and it's sort of it's it's eminently worth doing. There are other people who want to tell stories from history, there are other people who want to do really oblique things, there are people who want to work in the abstract, um, there are people who want to arrange financing for these things, even though they don't take particularly strong views on which are is better than the other. Um there are other people who train, there are other, you know what I mean? So we're all, you know, and I'm I'm being an over-educated 40-something male, I'm obsessed with World War II. So you just kind of continually realize that the guys who land on Normandy are like the the tiniest, tiniest tip of this absolutely colossal spear, and everything is kind of behind them. Um, and in order to make that work, then that's sort of two years of preparation with you know kind of 30, 40, 50 million people involved in producing landing craft and making mulberries and taking aerial relate aerial reconnaissance photographs, uh, and you know, equipping the navy and training them to do X, Y, and Z. To it's just like there are all these jobs, and that they they're all necessary. So, in a way, I think it's there's always this temptation to think as an artist, as a writer, I want to do what I think is most effective, and actually, I don't think you should, I think you should do what you think you will do well, or maybe what you've been called to do. And so, and as an example of that, I've I have recently had another idea for an actual proper BBC one kind of sitcom about a married couple. I mentioned it last night, and it's kind of Brave New World, and it's been partly inspired, it's not, it's set now, it's a normal thing, it just all looks kind of normal, but and it was prompted partly by being I read it at school, and obviously it's wasted on me then. Uh, but listening to Rod Dreyer talk about his new book, and he talks about Brave New World, and how essentially we're moving to this point where everyone has to feel good about everything all the time, and we're having our choices sort of taken away from us, you know, and all this stuff. I mean, he didn't mention it, but you know, the the great reset and billionaire saying, in the future you won't own anything and you'll be happy about it. It's like okay, you can get lost right now. You know, I'm not having a billionaire tell me that I'll be happy about having nothing. You'll still be a billionaire, right? You know, you can get lost. Um, so I'm really interested in how in control and human agency and how that works. And so, you know, the character is basically fighting for the right to be unhappy. Okay, because he wants he wants to step out of the system, right? And there's the savage character as well, and they say, Yes, but if you're outside the system, then you'll you'll be unhappy. And he says, I claim that right.
SPEAKER_04Right.
SPEAKER_02I want the right to be unhappy. Because if I if I can't be unhappy, then what I do doesn't matter. So I'm really interested in basically human agency. So characters, one of whom is like he's all about you get the information, you make a choice, and you live with it. You know, he's a pro freedom kind of person. And then you've got somebody else who's just all about give me the information so I can take complete control, so I can predict every single outcome. And if that person is a newly pregnant woman, she's really then that's the most extreme version of that kind of character. Um so if they're a young couple and their attitude to risk and control is sort of different, that's a show. Is that I mean, is that a Christian show? Yeah. Because we believe in human agency, we are responsible for our sin. We also believe in predestination. Uh I'm not about to put those two together right now. Um, but that's kind of part of it, isn't it? I mean, that that's the you know, do do the things that we do matter, should they matter? Should you shield people from the consequences of their own idiotic life choices? Um, and some say you should, some say you shouldn't, some say depends on what you mean, and all that kind of stuff. So that's I think that's time well spent. And if that get if I I'm gonna write a script of that, hopefully by Christmas, I would like it to be commissioned. I don't know if it will be. Um I've got some people I can take it to, but it feels like that's eminently uh a good use of my time, gift, skills, and abilities. That's a story that I would be proud to tell, hopefully, 70 or 80 times over for money.
SPEAKER_03Take us through that creative process, though. I mean, Stephen King talks about how you know the creative process is less like architecture and more like archaeology. You discover a fossil and there's a tiny little bit of it, and then the rest of it is kind of brushing away the detritus and like is this a good example of an idea? Like, like what does it look like to come across this idea?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I think I mean it depends on how you come up with ideas, and again, you're not required to have any particular way, it's just by the time you're you're you're taking this idea out and you're doing something with it, you do need to have thought of all of the different situations. So, in in in terms of sitcom, which is what I'm most used to talking about in this case, is you need a situation and you need characters, but overall the show needs to be about something. What's it actually about?
SPEAKER_03Or is it Seinfeld?
SPEAKER_02In which case it's oh, it's not about nothing. There's no way that show they've done a very clever trick of persuading people that that show is about nothing, it's not about nothing. Um, so but there has to be some kind of philosophical core DNA to it, and it's sometimes you you can get quite a long way with an idea without knowing what it is, even though you know there is one. So, you know, on a stupid example, my podcast with Barry Cooper, we still don't really know what it is, so we're having a very hard time promoting it because we don't actually know how to promote it, because we don't know what we've got, even though we've now done 115, 18, 20 episodes. What is it? I don't know. Um, but with a sitcom, you you so you need characters, and some people think, oh, there's just this amazing character that I want to write about. Great, write about that character. Wouldn't it be cool to set a sitcom uh in Afghanistan whilst the war's going on? Correct, yes, it would be cool. Uh, what would be the best way of showing that? Uh well, four squaddies, you know, in a section, they have a similar worldview, look, outlook on life, that might be a bit boring. Uh, what's a multidisciplinary team? Oh, a bomb disposal unit, because that has skills from different areas, they're from different parts of the army, they're whammed together to do this life-threatening thing. And there's an overall shape or narrative arc to what they do because we've in the UK at least, because of the situation in Northern Ireland, we now know what a long walk is, and we've known that before the before the hurt locker came out. That's a thing. It's just like bomb this bomb down there, guy does the long walk. Let's hope the bomb doesn't detonate. Bombs don't go off, cheese goes off, bombs detonate or function, as our military advisor used to constantly tell us. Because we would say to say, when you know, so at what point does the bomb go off? You go, what do you mean? The bomb goes off, no, cheese goes off. No, milk goes off. So when would the bomb detonate? I will now answer your question. Um so we thought, but what's the show really about? And actually, the the it wasn't just wouldn't it be cool to set it in Afghanistan? The thing that was particularly struck us is why do soldiers like being soldiers? And why did soldiers want to deploy to Afghanistan? When all of the narrative we were getting in the media at that point was these soldiers are victims in a pointless war. Look at them, look at them, they're so young, look at them. You know, that one's dead now. Yeah. You know, they they you know, despite the fact that in this documentary they seem to be pretty happy about this overall arrangement that they're basically in a foreign country with a gun. Sorry, weapon or rifle, guns are artillery. Um, sorry. So, at what point would you would you have your gun with you at all time? What do you mean by gun? Do you mean weapon or rifle? Yes.
SPEAKER_03He's haunting you, yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02He's a great guy, still we're still kind of we're still friends. Occasionally I consult him on uh on WhatsApp. Um but um but you but that that was our that was our DNA was why do soldiers like being soldiers? What is it about that camaraderie? Um and okay, so who are the characters? So, and then we came up with the characters and we kind of got the right blend, I think, and then so it doesn't matter whether you thought of what about a bomb disposal guy who thinks that because he's so brave, any woman will sleep with him. Um that's funny. I mean that's that's Sam Malone and Cheers, you know. We we nicked Cheers and MASH, the two most successful sitcoms of all time, and put them together in a show. Um, but so so in a way, it's like it doesn't matter what you come up with, it's just that by the time you've written a script, you do need to have answered all of the other questions. So, and I've I've worked out that I tend to think of either situations, Hut 33 set in Bletchee Park during World War II. Um, I'm now more interested in ideas. What is the actual sitcom about? It's about control, it's about the great algorithm, it's about the fact that our choices are being kind of removed or second-guessed by by data people and all that kind of stuff. Okay, so where would that start? Where would that be set? And some kind of agency office type place where they actually work for Amazon in some way? Oh, yeah, there's a guy there who basically wants to break free from all of that. Uh and what so uh and then it's like, oh, is he married? Oh, if his wife is breaking a baby, she'll feel very differently about this. Okay, so the narrative arc in series one is they're gonna have a baby, and then you know. Uh so I now realize the show is mostly set at home rather than about 50. It's not that there aren't eight people in the office, there are three people. There are probably more, but I'm only interested in three of them. And then there's the home life, and that's so I've I think I've kind of got to where I need to get to it. And halfway along the line, I've realized, oh, it's Brave New World. Oh, okay, great. Oh, so he's called Bernard then, great, and she's called Lena. Great, okay, that's cool. Oh, his boss will be called Mustafa because of Mustafa in the book. You know what I mean? It's like you know, this stuff writes itself, especially if someone else has written it before you.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah. But it doesn't write itself, it's it's hard graph. Yeah, yeah, isn't it?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03Like, how how long is this process like getting you to this point?
SPEAKER_02This has happened fairly quickly, but I've been mulling it subconsciously, probably for five years. And also I now know how to kind of I've got a bit of a catalyst kind of way of supercharging stuff because I teach this stuff, I now know what I need to do. Uh, so I've got a bit of a head start on that score. Um, but yeah, so it's like, what is the show? You're writing documents, sometimes with bits of paper, writing myself little notes, uh, go for a walk, have a think, write it down. So, who is this character? What's the situation? What are the kind of plots? What sort of things could happen every week? Um, oh okay, so you've got a whole load of build up to having a baby, you know, and that that has its own narrative. But what about him? What's he trying to do? He's he loves sport because sport is unpredictable. Um, so you know, uh, that's kind of, you know, he's a stats guy, so he's a numbers stats guy, really. Uh, so there's this, and then she's got a mum who is probably religious in some way, so she thinks that everything's predetermined. Um she's maybe she's sort of fatalistic rather than a Calvinist, I don't know. It's like it's not I haven't got that yet. Um, but yeah, and then I'm sort of thinking, well, what's the first episode? Because what I I read a lot of scripts, firstly, they don't actually know what the show is about. This sitcom is basically some form of fan fiction. They love sitcom, they thought, oh, I'll set a sitcom in my own workplace, and they've written something that has the shape and form and appearance of a sitcom, but it's fundamentally just people talking. And then uh yeah, so you sorry, I can't remember how I got onto that.
SPEAKER_03So the pilots are.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, the pilot, yeah, yeah. So what the other thing I when I read a script is I go, oh, they've come up with an idea for a sitcom, and the plot of the first episode is the premise, and once they've established the plot and the premise at the same time, I now don't know what the sitcom actually is. Um actually I think they've I think they want to write a movie because they're more interested in the story than the characters.
SPEAKER_03Right.
SPEAKER_02So in a sitcom, it's all of stories are things you need for the characters to be funny.
SPEAKER_05Right.
SPEAKER_02So the moment people start going, oh yeah, he does this and then he goes on this journey and then he does this and does this, okay, okay, that that's that's a box set. You know, so breaking bad is a 90-hour movie, isn't it? Um, which is fine, great, that that's cool, but it's anything which has that kind of structure and arc is going to be less funny because the story is the king, not the characters. Right. Whereas every sitcom outline you've seen of like, oh, there's an episode of Brooklyn 99 coming up, and it tells you what's going to happen. And it's just like, I don't care. Yeah, you're not looking at it just going, oh, that'll be funny.
SPEAKER_03Right, right.
SPEAKER_02You're looking at to see whether you've seen it before.
SPEAKER_03Yes.
SPEAKER_02Um, and then you just assume that it's going to be funny because the characters in Brooklyn 9-9 are funny.
SPEAKER_05Yes.
SPEAKER_02So when they go, oh, there's a there's a there's a a contest over um Terry's yogurts, you know, Terry's yogurts go missing, and you go, yeah, Terry loves yogurts, and I wonder how his missing yogurts is going to be funny. Yeah, yeah. Um, but you're not just thinking, oh, this is gonna be so funny. Yeah, yeah, yoghurts going missing, that's funny. It's like no, it's not funny, Terry's funny. Terry's funny. Um, and his daughters Cagney and Lacey. Um, so so yeah, so you you you you're you're making sure that you've actually got it. Is this a sitcom? Is this actually a sitcom, or is this a movie, is this a novel, uh, is this something else?
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Uh and quite often it is.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And that's fine, write write, write a novel.
SPEAKER_03Yes. Which again, I think it might be why sitcoms are more lore and films are more gospel. In that if it's it's about the flesh, it's about the the persons.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Rather than a story into which the persons fit.
SPEAKER_02Okay, you've sold me on that. I I like that. Yeah, lore and gospel.
SPEAKER_01Hi. Um, I was wondering if you ever suggested the day that they tell you how maybe like it's a Christian or to physical or something, and then they just say technical.
SPEAKER_02And then how do you um it's a good question? I sort of know what they're going to say before they've said it, so in a way I've already moderated it. I mean, it's just pitching anything that does have strongly Judeo-Christian themes is going to be an uphill battle to the point where I've sort of not bothered going into that world. Um, so I think it needs to be about something else. What's interesting, my Bluestone 4.2 show, the most normal and realistic character in some ways is the Padre. Um, because she she is more like a civilian than anybody else, whereas uh the other characters in it behave like soldiers, and soldiers are trained to be weird. You know, they run in the opposite direction from where everybody else is running, like firemen, you know. How I mean the other thing is the other sort of framing of it, weirdly, I did have this idea a few years ago, which I realized would have to be set in a black community. Uh, I had this idea for a young guy, a sort of 17-year-old guy who could sort of go in in any direction in life. His dad's a pastor, he thinks his dad's a loser, he doesn't want to be part of the church, but the problem is he can see demons and angels. And so he's basically running from this kind of cosmic reality that he can see unfolding in front of him, but he just basically wants to go and hang out with his friends. Okay, and he thinks he doesn't want to it's basically this way leads to being like your dad, and he thinks his dad's a loser.
SPEAKER_04Okay.
SPEAKER_02And you just think, could you do that show set in a white community in England? No, that's that's a South London charismatic church Pentecostal spin-off Caribbean show. Um and also, oh okay, I don't get to write that show because identity politics has kind of reached the stage where I'm not allowed to write a show about a black community, uh, so which I think is nonsense and idiotic, although I understand it. Um it's sort of, you know. Um so in a way, yeah, and there's another show I I told you about last night where I just said this show could only exist or be funded in America because it's just it's just too Christian. Um there'd be a market for it in the States, but there wouldn't over here. So yeah, it is a concern, but these are secular gatekeepers with all the money. So if you want the money, you've got to play the game. And if you don't want to play the game, that's cool, but get the money somewhere else or find a zero budget solution.
SPEAKER_04That's alright.
SPEAKER_00I was wondering if I could ask about uh happy endings. Yeah. Um, because you mentioned Shawshank Redemption. I don't you probably know this, but apparently um Frank Darabont's original cut ended with the bus going into the distance and red saying, I wonder if I'll see my friend again. Okay. And then the studio were like, now we have to show the the reunion on the beach. Yeah. But yeah, which which ending do you prefer? Because I know the happy end ever after is a very Christian thing, but we haven't yet reached it, so is it more powerful to show kind of the hope, but not actually.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I couldn't, I probably couldn't dig in on one way or the other. I think the fact that he has hope and the fact that he has hope and that he's changed, you've pretty much done all the heavy lifting. It's just like how much do you want this spelled out? Yeah, uh, you know, and in one sense, it's like if you're a glass half-empty person, you might think, oh, he won't find Andy. He'll never find Andy, but at least he's got hope. And if you're a positive person, you go, yeah, sure, he'll go and find him. And I don't know, you can insert your own ending, that's okay. Um, you know, there is an awedness to endings about what should and shouldn't happen, and sometimes it's interesting to subvert the ending and just go, you know, the fact that this hasn't ended in a way that you wanted it to bothers you, and that's good. Um and I feel like uh uh Jarvis um from uh Newman and Badil, uh, who was basically a wrong and the fact that I said and I disappointed you turns me on. Do you remember that character? That was his running, yeah, yeah. Back in, you know, when I was probably your age or slightly younger, Robert Newman and David Badil were like rock stars of comedy. Right.
SPEAKER_03And uh like the first-to-do stadiums, weren't they?
SPEAKER_02They did the Wembley Arena. I think somebody else has said, actually, I think you'll find Roy Chelby Brown did Wembley Arena first, or some really traditional, uh slightly more dubious comedian. Um, but they were absolutely huge. Uh unfortunately they couldn't stand each other. Um but um but uh yeah, that's uh history today. Yes. Good evening, and welcome to History Today. Uh all from the sketch tradition, yeah, and they were absolutely smoking hot, good at it, because they'd made all the mistakes at Cambridge. Yeah, um, but yeah, endings are um I was weirdly talking to Glenn about last night about teaching people how to end a sitcom episode rather than the last ever episode. The endings are really important, and yet somehow they also don't matter. They shouldn't be bad. They need to be um how did I describe it? They need to they need to be surprising and retrospectively inevitable. So you they need to be like, oh, oh that's cool. But then when you think about it, you just think, well, I don't see how it could have ended any other way. Of course that would happen, but it was still a surprise that that was the ending of that episode. So, you know, there's there's it's usually it was there all along, you know, and we see that obviously in the crucifixion, the resurrection.
SPEAKER_04It's like you know, yeah, huh.
SPEAKER_02After the resurrection, there he is in a garden uh with a woman. Uh, where have I seen a man and a woman in a garden before? Uh, you know, all that kind of stuff. It's like, ah, you know, and so there was just resonance, it's just like it's just clanging bells absolutely everywhere.
SPEAKER_03It had to be, but you didn't detect it.
SPEAKER_02Of course, you know, it's that kind of thing. Uh, and that's that that that's a lot of uh that's a lot of waste paper and screaming trying to find that ending. But um, but yeah, quite often you you think of something that oh that'll work, that'll do, and then in the writing of it, you think, oh, wouldn't it be better if? And which the answer is normally yes, it would be better. Your old ending would have probably been fine, but this is better. But there is a but you know, I'm also fine with the Count of Monte Cristo, where we learn that revenge is not justice, and he goes around and basically kills everybody that wronged him. And do you know what? He's not satisfied by that experience.
SPEAKER_04The end.
SPEAKER_02The end. Yeah, I'm fine with that, you know. So it kind of depends uh on the story.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah. And and you don't have to turn to camera and give the moral at the end of the yeah, because that ending from that novel does that for you. Yeah, if you credit your audience with any kind of intelligence.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. I've only seen the movie, I've not actually read.
SPEAKER_03Um this is why we ended this one. Yeah. Yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah, yeah. Totally.
SPEAKER_03Um brilliant. Well, I think uh Nate and I need to um hop into another meeting. Um, but James, thank you so much.
SPEAKER_02Pleasure.
SPEAKER_03Absolutely awesome. Um, and yes, yeah.
SPEAKER_02I love the sound of canned applause. If we can can some laughter as well for later, so I can sprinkle that over my sitcoms, that'll be good.
SPEAKER_03And if people want to keep up with your prodigious online outputs, what should they do?
SPEAKER_02Um so I talk about sitcom writing on a podcast called Sitcom Geeks. There are 170 episodes, uh, so I wouldn't start from the first one. Um and then I find a comedian you like because you you might well have reviewed. Possibly, yeah. We don't interview loads of people, but we have interviewed various people. We've interviewed Graham Linnahan, we've interviewed Stephen Moffat, we've interviewed um the guy who wrote Rising Damp. Um uh what's his name? Chapel. Uh Eric Chappell. And um and I do a Christian podcast with Barry Cooper called Cooper and Carrie Have Words. And there are a hundred and something episodes of that.
SPEAKER_03Yep. And you do another podcast with some guy. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Some guy.
SPEAKER_02We do a sporadic podcast about stories where frankly Nate does all the talking, and I just ask him three questions over the course of half an hour and then edit out the ums, and then we're good to go.
SPEAKER_03You're just the pretty face.
SPEAKER_02Pretty much. I'm just the eye candy.
SPEAKER_03Popcorn parenting, so that's another thing.
SPEAKER_02Popcorn parenting is what that one is called. Yeah. Where we talk about. Yeah, I have a substack as well. Yeah, so I try to write in the mornings and do everything else in the afternoons.
SPEAKER_03Awesome. Unless I'm doing this. Thank you for doing this in the morning.
SPEAKER_00Plaza. Well, there you have it. Hope you enjoyed today's installment of the Speak Life podcast. And uh watch this space. Soon we'll be starting a live show on Monday evenings on our YouTube channel. And there's plenty going on. Our prayer is that these resources will bless the church and inspire people to share the love of Jesus and use their gifts and their creativity for Jesus. Do subscribe on your podcatcher of choice so you don't miss an episode. And I'm gonna say it one more time, I'm afraid. You can sign up to our training opportunities at speaklifefoundry.com. But thank you so much for listening. Goodbye and God bless.