Hello and welcome to the Speak Life Podcast. Thomas Thoroughgood again here doing the intro, the middle bit, and the end bit as well. I'm really sorry. Um you're probably fed up of my voice, but yeah, sorry. Um today we have a very special discussion for you. Glenn Scrivener and Dan Strange talking about Dan's new book, Making Faith Magnetic. Five Hidden Themes Our Culture Can't Stop Talking About and How to Connect Them to Christ. The premise is that we're all deeply religious in a in a sense, and um how how can this lead to some good conversations? So I'm really looking forward to this discussion. I hope you enjoy it and I'll catch you in the middle bit.
SPEAKER_02Today I am joined by Dr. Dan Strange. He is the director of Crosslands Forum. Uh no, is that right? Crosslands.
SPEAKER_01Correct, that is correct.
SPEAKER_02Crosslands Forum. Tell me, tell me what this is.
SPEAKER_01So uh Crosslands Forum is a brand new center for uh cultural engagement. So we're looking at how do we do uh research in the area of um cultural engagement to support churches? How do we do how do we take that research and make it into resources that uh the church can use? And then how do we build relationships? How can we collaborate together as Bible-believing Christians in this huge area of how do we engage the culture? So I've been at Oak Hill for a number of years. So this is a new kind of uh venture, it's part of Crossland's training. Very excited. We had our launch event uh yesterday, and uh so yeah, we're just getting going.
SPEAKER_02So is this part of your journey? So you were vice principal at uh Oak Hill Theological College, and is this part of kind of bringing the academy to be you know really at the interface of churches and really helping them to think theological?
SPEAKER_01I think, yeah. So I mean I've been I was kind of lecturer at Oak Hill, then vice principal, then director. And and I think it's always I my big um passion has always been uh how do we proclaim the Lordship of Christ in every area of life for all Christians to understand what that means. I think for the last 16 years, and for good reason, strategically, I've thought the way to do that is through training pastors. Um, but uh I think uh this is a new venture and it gives me more opportunity to teach all kinds of different people in all kinds of different vocations about what thinking with and living with a Christian worldview looks like. And so uh, yeah, we've we've started this new venture. We've moved from London up to uh Gateshead. Uh um we're five minutes from the Angel of the North, if people know uh where that is. Uh very excited to be working with Jen Chartres, who's the exec director of Crosslands. So that they do their own training, and this is a kind of a kind of a new division where I'm going to be doing research, providing training resources and uh uh building relationships because we need to be doing this stuff together.
SPEAKER_02Right, yeah. And so you have been thinking, let's resource the pastors, and you still want to resource pastors, but this is this is going to everyday Christians, equipping them to live out their discipleship.
SPEAKER_01And yeah, yeah, so I think I think there's a kind of a you might think it's a bit naphthane, but you know, we want to kind of um disciple theologians and theologize disciples. There you go.
SPEAKER_02Theologize disciples, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01That's the bit that's the bit that doesn't quite work.
SPEAKER_02It kind of works. It kind of works, yeah. Well, let's let's redeem the word theology because it gets it gets a bad press. I think I I think with Christians we think of the academy when we when we think of theology, and you're very much a champion of saying no, we are all theologians, even non-Christians are theologians, right?
SPEAKER_01Yes, I yes, that that that that's the point. And I think um uh you know the stuff that we're going to talk about, it's recognizing that everyone has a theological worldview, they wouldn't say it like that. So all the issues that we all all the issues, for example, to do with I don't know what's the Christian view of the problem of suffering, all of those non-Christians have the same issues they need to deal with as well, that they're dealing with in their own theological way. It's not kind of a million miles away. And yeah, just passionate about um, I mean, I I often say Jesus being Lord is not um, we're not we can't dilute that lordship and we can't delimit it. It is uh it is everywhere. And uh, how do we um take every thought captive for Christ? How do we whether you eat or drink or whatever you do to do it to the glory of God? So that big kind of picture of the lordship of Christ in every area of life and wanting Christians to be engaging with that and thinking critically about that, and not just again, I think I'm increasingly it's not simply about cultural consumption or critique, although that's really important, it's about cultural creation. And that's why, you know, I'm really excited about the stuff that you do, Glenn, in terms of, you know, innovation, the arts, how do we kind of do stuff? It's not simply about um cultural discernment, although that's important, but that can be quite passive. It's how do we then, how do we go forward? How do we create things that are going to be attractive that people say, hey, there is something to this worldview that is called Christianity, and hey, there's this amazing, there's an amazing guy called Jesus Christ who's at the center of it. So uh anything to do with that uh area, um, I'm passionate about.
SPEAKER_02That's fascinating because I think plugged in was was a great book of yours that's kind of helping us to read culture and helping us to read art and and figure out how it is preaching to us. But you're saying you you've got a real heart for or how do we get all the gospel into us so that we get cultural?
SPEAKER_01I mean, frankly, if we're not forming culture, we're being deformed by it. And um, we this is where, as you will know, and we've talked about this before, I still think we're massively on the back foot in terms of all levels of society as thinking as Christians, what does this mean for all areas? Um, and not simply the arts in a kind of a high arts thing, but what does it mean for popular culture? You know, a mutual friend of ours, Ted Turnow, is really interested in how we engage pop culture. What does it mean for our theology of sport? You know, the Christians and sport guys are starting to think that through a lot more at a higher level. And then what does it mean just for our normal everyday lives where people might say, well, what's this got to do with my faith? It's got everything to do with it.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um, so it is about discipleship. And then as we are, as we are um falling in love with Jesus more, as we are trying to follow his word more, uh, then that naturally brings us evangelistic apologetic opportunities.
SPEAKER_02Do you think we've ghettoized ourselves a little bit in our little corner of the Christian world in which the whole sort of process of ministry is about identifying pastoral ministers and training them in full-time ministry, and and we we kind of siphon off uh the people who we're interested in and sort of plug them into full-time pastoral ministry when you can you can minister to Christ and minister to the world in every kind of walk of life. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Is there a problem? Oh no, I I think there is, and I think I think you think approach it from the other angle. I I used to do this course at college called um Public Theology, which was uh Oak Hill, which was about how do we engage with society. And I think people at Oak Hill were very nervous about are you gonna be telling me that I'm not gonna be doing what I should be doing? I thought I was here to be a minister. And I was saying to these people, look, I'm the the need for uh pastors, teachers, evangelists, all of those things is absolutely essential. You are the officers of the church. What I'm teaching you is how are you going to disciple your people well? You have a particular role. And the the um the illustration that I've been using is imagine the church is this kind of army medical field tent in the middle of battle, and every week the people stream in and they're tired, they're hungry, they're wounded, they're they're demo demotivated. What we do in the gathering is we feed them by God's word, we we exhort them and we send them back out again to fulfill their callings. Now, you need medics, you need field medics to do that. That's what the pastors are doing. But also the whole point is one of the points is is that you're getting people out there to uh to uh build them up and send them out so that they can be that light in what is often a very dark world.
SPEAKER_02Yes, and a good doctor is not someone who keeps hold of their patients, you know, someone who lets them go. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And of course, you know, I mean, it it's the one-anothering that I think, you know, the the the the pastor is helping the body to self-grow. Um I was struck um in one Peter, I've been thinking this through a little bit. Uh it talks about um each one of you should use the gift that you've been given uh as good stewards to administer the many gifts of God in its various forms. But the word for the various forms of God's grace, the word various is exactly the same word at the beginning of the letter when Paul talks about the various trials that the Christians are facing. And I like to think that there's a symmetry there. Everyone has to use the gift in the church that they've been given, and that matches the various trials. If people aren't using those various gifts, then there'll be a trial that can't be matched. And there's a wonderful symmetry there of every member gifting, but not just narrowly seeing that in in the church, but seeing in in the world, how do we as a Christian community help each other and support each other? What's my particular place? What's the vocation that God's given me? And uh, yeah, I it it frustrates me when I think we have kind of evacuated certain areas of public and cultural life, and then we moan that it's all going downhill because we haven't strategically said, you know, it's really important to have Christian artists and Christian politicians and Christians in in every area of of life. And um, I think where some of it is that we're kind of reaping the whirlwind of that now.
SPEAKER_02Really, I think so. And I've been haunted by what Stephen McAlpine said in his book, Being the Bad Guys. Um uh where he says so many pastors prepare their congregations for the kind of Monday morning the pastor is about to have, and not the kind of Monday morning that that their flock is about to have. I mean, exactly. Yeah, this might be.
SPEAKER_01And again, it's not it's never, it's not an either or, it's never kind of do church do work, do evangelism, or do get involved in society and be a Christian in society. It's always a both and the more that we are engaged Christianly in our discipleship, in the vocations God has given us, the more that will give us opportunities to say something about the Lord Jesus Christ, because you know that it's affecting everything that we do. Right. And um, I think as you know, as we were talking just before, not compartmentalizing that I am doing evangelism now, that how am I a disciple, how am I loving Jesus more, that will mean I want to talk about him more and it will affect everything that I'm doing and saying in my life.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. So you've mentioned that from the book. You've you've got a new book out, uh, Making Faith Magnetic. Do you have a copy of it? Are you about to do it? There it is. In all its glory. Um and what you're really trying to do there, as as you as you've mentioned, is bring evangelism and apologetics, these sort of these two um seeming kind of side hustles that a certain brand of Christian can have, and saying, no, it's an outflow from the Christian life of discipleship. And and your your verse, it's it's you know, our verse at Speak Life is Matthew 12, 34. And you you you quote the Lucan version, out of the out of the overflow of the heart, the mouth speaks. And so, really, for me, it's it's it's kind of a book that's wanting to fill our heart with a Christ-centered all of life view of the world. And then whatever evangelism kind of bubbles out of that is is uh is all for the for the good. But you're you're really trying to theologize disciples there.
SPEAKER_01Yes, yeah. I mean, don't join I mean, maybe it'll help to give the kind of the basic premise of the book if that's helpful. Do you think I talk about this illustration? I don't know whether if you've seen this film Free Solo that I've been obsessed about. So Alex Honauld, the free climber who goes and climbs El Capitan in Yosemite Park. It's incredible. But one of the things that um there's a part of that climb where it looks as if he's climbing like sheer rock face, and you think, how can he get traction here? And then when the camera closes in, you see there's these little indentations and nubs that he has to kind of creatively contort himself, but he he's able to stick. And the point I make in the book is that I do think sometimes we're struggling as Christians to get traction. People, but we're just slipping off. People are not interested in what we want to say. There doesn't seem to be anything to hold on to, there's no point of contact. And the book is trying to encourage people to say that what from what the Bible says about human beings, yes, we may have to be creative, we may have to kind of uh work hard, but there will always be these traction points, but we can't get the traction, and then this is where the the illustration breaks down because I don't think free climbing is a very safe thing to do. And if we're not tethered, if there isn't a tethering to Christ, if there's not a tethering to his word. So the kind of the book is saying, how can we be tethered and have traction at the same time? We know lots of Christians who are very tethered very well, but they're not going to be able to climb anything because they're they're kind of, you know, they can't they can't get any kind of purchase. Or other people who want to get the traction but have kind of abandoned biblical teaching a long time ago. So this is a book about how do we get traction? And actually, the Bible gives us the the um the doctrine of humanity uh to be able to say there will always be a point of contact in any kind of culture. Of course, they're going to be varied depending on which culture it is, but there's these universal, what I call them, um, itches that people have to scratch. And what we need to do is uh think about what they are and then say, how does Christ relate to these? Um so that's what the book's about.
SPEAKER_02So, and and you develop that analogy of the scratching, um, quite interestingly, that when you scratch them in the wrong way, when you scratch them without Christ, they start to bleed. They, you know, they it only gets worse.
SPEAKER_01It's yeah, it's it's not it's not good for us. Um, certainly not good for us in this life, and certainly not good in the life to come. And I think that's the other aspect of um, you know, we're talking about eternal uh realities here. So the so the the um the framework, I mean it's called making faith magnetic, and the magnetic bit is this phrase called the magnetic point. So my um I'm sit I'm sitting on the shoulders of this uh uh this great Christian pastor who was a uh a Bible teacher and also a mission lecturer, a guy called J. H. Bavink. He uh was a missionary in what was then called Java, Indonesia now in the kind of 40s and 50s. He ended up teaching in Holland and he he looked at lots of different religions and he said, Look, they're saying completely different things about the meaning of life and all of these things, but there are these magnetic points, they're these questions that human beings always come back to. They're answered in completely different ways. Now, Babink's context was doing that in terms of Islam and Hinduism and Buddhism, what you might call global world religions, although I'm not very happy with that title, but you know what I mean. Um, what I'm trying to do in making faith magnetic is say these same questions apply in our kind of post-Christian secular context. So the book is laying out the framework and then giving lots of examples, many of which are not my own, they're from my students, about how we see these points manifest in our everyday lives. And then the second half of the book is okay, how does Jesus confront and connect these magnetic points? So there's a kind of a framework, and then we talk about um, yeah, how the gospel applies.
SPEAKER_02So we'll we'll think about these uh magnetic points uh in a second, but you um you say early on in the book that there are natural connections that can resonate and penetrate deeply rather than naf ones that simply bounce off the surface. Um have you known certain uh forms of evangelism to be naf and to bounce off the surface? What does that look like?
SPEAKER_01Well uh yeah, or what I call kind of kind of gear gear gear crunching, you know, um my my team scored a goal at the weekend, oh Jesus scored a goal for all of us. You know, I know that's a that's a very that's a very I know you may think.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, Jesus for the devil any day.
SPEAKER_01Uh and and even just I think even at a very kind of superficial level, we can. I mean, even you know, I know, I know it's it's funny, I've been doing some stuff recently, and people want me to talk about like Marvel, especially, and how you know the Christ figures in Marvel, and that's great. I'm sure there are connections there. And I I kind of I like Marvel as much as the next person. I'm not particularly obsessed by it.
SPEAKER_02And uh, as I'm getting older, I think strange is not obsessed with it.
SPEAKER_01No, exactly. You know what? As I get older, I find it a bit too crash bang-y. I don't I want a bit more, I want a bit more plot character-driven stuff. Anyway, but um, but yeah, I I think it it's that there can be some quite superficial ways because I think sometimes we're worried. There's a there's a guy who I really like reading, a guy called Chris Watkin, who's written writing a lot in this area, and he talks about the difference between looking, um reading, looking at the Bible and looking through the Bible. Right. When we look through the Bible, there are deep patterns that that can help us in understanding issues that the Bible doesn't explicitly deal with. I mean, the Bible doesn't talk about artificial intelligence, it doesn't talk about some of the identity issues that we're facing today. But the patterns of the Bible, the way that the Bible sets up what flourishing um humanity and uh our relationship to creation looks like, those patterns are there. And then when we know those patterns, we can do all kinds of amazing creative stuff that gives a that breaks through the kind of the false ways the world things through together. But that it's that distinction. Now, of course, we do need to look at the Bible, I'm not denying that. But this looking through the Bible means we need to go deep. It's about these deep patterns, and that's I think increasingly what I think as Christians we need to be doing at a very fundamental level.
SPEAKER_02Well, I mean, Calvin said that the scriptures are like spectacles that you you look through to see the world, and it's completely out of focus without the spectacles, but with the spectacles, things come into focus. And I've I think I've gone on on a bit of a journey with this. And part of it was actually I was I was set a talk title by our conference, and they they wanted me to talk about um seeing all things through Christ. And and that just sort of set me a jo on a journey of and and it was sort of part of my um developing of 321 is you know it's the story of God, the world, and you. Well, why do we why do we talk about the threeness of God and the two-ness of the world and the oneness of you? It's because we're seeing through Christ as through a lens. And through Christ, what kind of God do you have? Ah, the triune God. Through Christ, what kind of world do you have? Ah, one that's sort of damned in Adam and raised in Christ. Through Christ, who are you? And I yeah, I I think I've been guilty of simply looking at Christ rather than you know looking along the beam, as C. S. Lewis would talk about.
SPEAKER_01And I mean, all these and all these amazing patterns, like you would, I mean, I've heard you speak on this before, Glenn, but you know, if you were if if you worship oneness, if you worship Allah, a monad, and the the biblical theory is you become like the god that you worship, then oneness, unity will will over will kind of be overstressed as opposed to diversity. So we worship a triune God, unity and diversity, which is why the society that a consistent Muslim would want to build for themselves looks very different from a society that worships the triune God. So, what does the pattern of unity and diversity mean for all kinds of relationships that we have in society? What does it mean? Um, what's the relationship between beauty and function? Sometimes we think it's an either-or, um, or fact and value, or artistic work versus manual labour. All of these are deep themes and that are there always under under the surface. And the Bible, the Bible's got something to say about that. Christian Revela God has got something to say about that. So it's always trying to be more um going deeper than just kind of superficial, um, fake kind of connections. Uh, there are these deep patterns that that we need to be thinking about. And to be fair, I'm not sure that we have been thinking about them because I think we've we've assumed so much.
SPEAKER_02Um yeah, I mean, my my um my kind of derogatory kind of go-to example on that is you remember when fidget spinners came out and you had the the threefold fidget spinner, right? And there were literally YouTube videos coming out with just like the Trinity, Dan.
unknownJust like the Trinity.
SPEAKER_02It looks like three, but when you spin it, it looks like it's one. And and so that that's that's the very superficial. That's that's like what you're saying, you know, they don't penetrate deeply. They're they're NAF ones that simply bounce off the surface. But what would it mean to think of why are we so agitated? Why are we, like Blaise Pascal says, why is our great problem that we cannot sit quietly in our own room by ourselves? Because of our, you know, thinking of mortality, and we must distract ourselves, distract ourselves, distracting ourselves to death. And as soon as you're on that track, you you you've got a really rich presentation of the gospel, but you shortcut it and it's just nonsense.
SPEAKER_00Well, there we go, it's the middle bit. We're halfway through. Hope you're enjoying this discussion. As always, any comments or questions can be emailed to infospeaklife.org.uk. You can also join the discussion on our YouTube channel or our Facebook page. Both can be accessed by searching for Speak Life UK. Enjoy the second part of the discussion, and I will catch you at the end of the show.
SPEAKER_01And even when those themes aren't there, I mean, one of the one of the magnetic points that I develop is this idea of deliverance. And people might say, well, not everyone has this idea of deliverance, but sometimes we want to be delivered from thinking about deliverance. So the example I give in the book is a pastor friend of mine who's who's discipling these two guys who are just addicted to this mobile phone game, Clash of Clans, just because they don't they want deliverance from having to think about their lives. And so it's that the it's these innate kind of human what it means to be made in the image of God. I mean, really, that's what the books are. It's saying, yeah, we believe we believe we're made in the image of God. When you unpack that, and when we know that we've um suppressed the truth and substituted it for idols, there's still an image of godness, but it's now twisted and distorted in all kinds of different ways. But there's still a structure, we still ask the same kinds of questions simply because we're human. And the book tries to explore what those particular questions are.
SPEAKER_02So can you take us through the five magnetic points?
SPEAKER_01Yes, I'm going to try and do this without just by looking to the camera. Um, so yeah, so the first one is called totality. Is there a way to connect? It's it's the idea that um we want to be connected to something or someone. Uh, and there's always that sense of how do we get that connection? It part of it is that one is to do with we struggle at the same time with thinking that we're insignificant as human beings. Um, who are we? We're just a speck in the universe, we're nothing. But also when we connect with something or someone, something bigger, something greater, it could be uh um a particular cause, it could be my national identity, it could be an LGBTQ rally, it could be a Comic-Con convention. Um, when we have that sense of connection, then we suddenly realize that we're significant. So there's this, we have this tension. Sometimes we think we're insignificant, sometimes we think they're significant. It's always this way to connect. How do we connect? And in the book, I give lots of examples from you know, um uh uh going on the London tube and seeing all the dating websites for to find the one, the one connection that will make me me, or family trees, or when Facebook had its billionth user in 2012, it was all about connection. So this idea of connection, I think, is very important. That's totality. There's um the norm. Um, is there a way, uh, is there a way to live? We all have standards, we all have rules, um, even though they might not be Christian rules, but there's a norm from which we can fall. And I mean, I think cancel culture is a great example uh of that. Um, and uh I give lots of examples. Even even the cult, even subcultures that try to say there isn't a norm, they still have their own rules. So the example I give is of goth culture, where everyone has to be different in the same way, and they're and their particular rules about being a goth. I mean, this is the this this was a student who told me that apparently if you're uh an experienced goth, you can wear baby pink. But if you're new to the goth world and you wear baby pink, you'll be seen to be outside. So we've all got these norms.
SPEAKER_02We all have You've got to know the rules to break the rules. Yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_01Um the third one is deliverance. Uh, is there a way out? Um, we all the we all think that the there's something wrong with the world, but the reason we think it's wrong and how we're delivered if we can be is completely different. Um there's a sense of you know deliverance in terms of um being delivered from something, but also there's a kind of a yearning for a world that maybe we thought was was there. I mean, I always find it fascinating that the romantics in the 18th and 19th century they used to build ruins because it was that kind of sense of, you know, oh, that the Arthurian legends, or this was a golden age. So we're always looking for a golden age, or always looking forward to something, and what's the problem and how can we be delivered from it? And and of course, supremely, we still think about how do we how can we be delivered from death? How are we going to be delivered from death? Is there deliverance from death? Um, the fourth point is uh is um is I call it destiny. Um is there a way we control? This is my favorite one. It's this interplay that we often have, isn't it, between um uh feeling as if we are kind of puppets or feeling that we have freedom. Babbing has this great line, he says, we both lead and undergo our lives. Wow. And and we can't, and again, even as Christians, I think, uh um, we we kind of struggle with that, don't we? And uh and and the things that we're told, we're told Monday, Wednesday, Friday, you can be who you want to be, you're a free person. Tuesday, Thursday, Saturday, we're thinking I've got no control, I'm the I'm the result of my my DNA, I'm the result of my education system, I'm the result of my ethnicity, that I'm kind of I'm determined, there's nothing that I can do. And we just struggle between those two things. And in the book, I talk a lot about superstition and lots of superstitions people have, even in a very secular society. Uh, the one being this the one I focus on most is this idea that you can't say in an office or in a in an emergency in an accident and emergency, it's quiet tonight. You have to use the letter Q, because if you say quiet, it will make things busy. And lots of experience of anecdotes of people taking this very seriously, even though they've got no time to no time for God. And then the final, then the final magnetic point is the kind of the super magnetic point. Is there a way beyond? Where do these other magnetic points, you know, who who is the one who connects? Who's the one who gives us the norm? Who or it? Who's the one who's going to give deliverance? Um, who's the one who is in control? And it's this question about transcendence. And um, there I talk about what you might call secularized religious experiences. So I recognize the influence that Christianity has had, but realize that that's been secularized in some way. So it's people wanting to, you know, a friend of mine's dad who went who's an atheist but went to Jerusalem and felt something when he went to the Holy Sepulchre. Or the example that I give is this idea of champing where um people are uh camping in derelict churches because they want a sense of waking up to light streaming through the stained glass window and it kind of wakes the ghost. And there's all kinds of examples, and you know, lots of uh writers have talked about this, you know, Alan de Botton and Religion for Atheists, it's that kind of idea. And the question is always is there a way beyond? Is it is there, is John Lennon right that above us is only sky, or is there something else? So these magnetic points, of course, they they differ in different cultures, and we need to understand. But I'm arguing that they're these universal questions, you know, a way to connect, um, a way to live, a way out, a way we control, a way beyond, are universal questions that human beings have. And the books try to just bring that up to date, looking at our particular Western context, especially.
SPEAKER_02That's very good. That's very good. You've got the you've got the elevator pitch down. This is the author knows his book. Um so but but tell me how are we meant to use these? So this this is the the irreducibly, inescapably sort of religious nature of the world that we happen to live in, whether you're a secular or not, we're bumping up against all these magnetic points. Necessarily so. Now, is the is the point that the Christian ought to be aware of these so that in conversation when you're talking about oh, it's a bit quiet tonight, you can you can say, are you undergoing or are you leading your life? Um like how how are we meant to use these magnetic points?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so the so the first thing is as I said, it's meant to be an encouragement that if we believe, I mean, it's it is a it is a living by faith, it's believing that this analysis, because in in in the book I try and show using various um uh kind of portions of of scripture or themes in the Bible, that these magnet, these magnetic points aren't falsely imposed. I think they naturally come out of the text, especially Romans chapter one, and you can read how that that works in in the book. But it's meant to give encouragement for people who think, wow, my non-Christian friends have, you know, there seems to be nothing in common for me to get any kind of purchase or traction. But as you start talking to them as you're in a relationship with them, I I think, and I hope, and we may have to dig a very hard, these these points will naturally kind of uh come out, but they won't come out in a kind of an abstract philosophical way. People are just living their lives. I I recognize that. But as we start talking about, you know, what do people think about um, do they think they're free? Do they think they're the victim of circumstances? Do they think that they need deliverance? What do they think about death? Uh, how are they connect? How do they want connection with their family? These are all very religious themes that then we have an opportunity, one, to ask them about that, but two, to pray that they will ask us, well, what do you think about what's your identity uh in? Um what why aren't you worried about dying? Uh, why is it that you don't think that there's a kind of a there's fate, but um, you know, you can talk about a loving heaven, heavenly father. Uh, all of those are connections that that we can make. And so um it's just meant to be a framework, not that it's explicit because it's not, because as I said, that that in plugged in, I talk about that great verse in Isaiah where the idolaters, you know, made their supper and then they've used the the wood they use to cook their tea to worship. And Isaiah says, you know, no one stops to think, and you know, people aren't thinking about these things, but what we have to do is gently to get people to stop and think, and these magnetic points are meant to be um kind of uh uh indicators or direction signals that might help us make those connections that sometimes we struggle to find.
SPEAKER_02So let's zero in on an example. Let's let's say you're in a conversation and you start talking about have you ever felt like um life was meant to be, that the stars were meant to align, that you are meant to be in this circumstance at this time for a reason, and that you are undergoing your life, not leading your life. And your friend says, absolutely, and they tell you a story of that, where do you go next?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so I'd I'd I'd want to explore if if people believe in in impersonal force, um, then um really an impersonal force doesn't care what you do, it's impersonal. So there's a whole question of um, yeah, what where does that kind of understanding uh come from? Actually, we know, don't we, that we like to believe in impersonal forces because we can do what we want to, and impersonal forces don't care. So there's an idea of responsibility then. What what what are we responsible for? And I I would I still want to say that deep down we feel as human beings that we are accountable or responsible to something. But if it's an impersonal force, where does that accountability come from? So I'd want to be kind of uh probing that. And and then again, what um what where where do we get our kind of meaning from in those particular uh situations? So it's always trying to just give a compare and contrast. What would we say? We believe in a loving Heavenly Father, we believe that God has got a plan, but we are still responsible because we're made in in God's image. What does uh another view that just says we're just kind of um yeah, we don't have responsibility, we're just determined. What does that mean for our freedom and our responsibility? Why do we feel locked in? Um, so again, it's just trying to kind of uh tease out from people that underneath their everyday lives are these bigger questions that seem to be going on underneath.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. And then in the second half of the book, um, you speak about how Jesus fulfills these kind of magnetic points. Um, why did you make that move in the book? I mean, was it was was the did the book ever exist as a as those first five magnetic points? Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01So so bat so in his work, this guy Bavink, who I've kind of based the book on, at the end he teases you a little bit, he gives you a little bit by saying, well, Jesus is kind of the answer. Um, but what I wanted to do is fill that out more. And really, this is where this idea that we've talked about before on um in Podcast Glenn is this idea of subversive fulfillment, which is really the idea that Jesus both confronts and connects um every culture. He confronts because um we preach foolishness, Christ crucified is a foolish message to the world, it's the radical contradiction of what the world thinks about all kinds of things. But it kind of contradicts in a particular way according to the culture that you're in. And again, I always come back to 1 Corinthians 1. You know, Jews look for power, Greeks look for wisdom, we preach Christ crucified, but then Paul isn't, Paul says it's uh what Jews and Greeks are looking for. Christ is completely the opposite, but in a way that can still say Christ is the power of God and the wisdom of God. Um, and so it it this idea of subversive fulfillment is showing that the and again the magnetic points help here because it's saying we are built for these questions to be answered. We're built for connection, we're built for norms, we're built for deliverance, we're built for um the fact that we're dependent upon something or someone, we're built for a relationship with a higher power, and it's showing how Jesus, therefore, in all of these magnetic points, he kind of contradicts the way that people are looking for those things, yeah, yeah, uh, but he also fulfills them as well. But it will be in precisely the opposite way that people expect. Uh, and again, it's not it's to recognize it's not the answer, it's not simply the answer is Jesus, but it's also in, for example, what I tried to do in the book is to show, let's take that idea of totality. It's the idea that we are built for communion, we're built for connection. I mean, that's what Adam means. Adam means from the earth. So, of course, we want connection, but why do we want connection with this world that's perishing? Um, and we want communion, but it's not just talking about communion with God, it's wanting to talk about the church, it's wanting to talk about community as well. That's where we find connection in maybe the most tangible way. Um, so what we're trying to do is to show it's that idea that you said, we've got this itch and we're scratching it, and we're not gonna the way we're trying to answer that question will not be answered. It will just be it'll just expose futility, really. Whereas we've got this amazing fountain of living water, the Lord Jesus Christ. And that means that it means repentance of faith. It means that to have connection, I have to die to myself and be re-reborn, but then I find my identity in Christ. Um, and all of those, so we try and work through each of the magnetic points to say how does Jesus both come from and connect?
SPEAKER_02Yes, yeah. And that that seems that subversive fulfillment idea seems a kind of a beautiful reflection of law and gospel, cross and resurrection, repentance and faith. And you're not saying um you have some kind of a sense of a higher power, and here he is, and let me just slightly you know pump that higher power up on step.
SPEAKER_01Oh, yeah, no, no, and that's I mean, that's crucial. I mean, again, if it helps, this this idea of subversive fulfillment is is um I've kind of utilized it, but it comes from a a famous guy, a famous mission guy called um Hendrik Kramer, and he was working at a time when people were starting to say, well, maybe Hinduism and Buddhism are stepping stones to Jesus, and uh there's the kind of what you might call fulfillment theology, and Kramer kind of slams his fist on the table and says, No, look, Jesus is completely other. There has to be, Jesus is radically different. But if you want to talk about fulfillment, talk about subversive fulfillment. And again, I don't um this idea, um, you know, put put, I mean, we talked about this before, you know, Paul in Athens, he is provoked, he has a paroxysm, he's like nearly violently ill because he sees idolatry, and at the end of that, he calls people to repentance. So please don't tell me that he's getting all very, you know, he's very commending of the Athenians. He what he has contact with them, he's in a very kind of in a very ordered way, he does what he always does, he's he looks around their objects of worship, but that whole act 17 is bookended by him being ill by idolatry and calling people to turn around radically. Yeah, so I think it's important that in this idea of subversive fulfillment, it's not just simply there's a God-shaped hole and Jesus fills it, it's saying you need to turn around from these futile ways that you've been kind of looking to answer. You know, your your the itch is the itch is bleeding, and that's a problem. But here we have this fountain of living water. Yeah, um, and it's just showing how there needs to be a kind of exposure or to show that the idols that people worship have feet of play, uh, but that we have a wonderful savior who actually does answer these questions. Jesus is the way we connect, he is the way He He is the He's He's not just He doesn't have, as I say in the book, he doesn't just have the law wrapped up under his arm in a scroll. He is He is the fulfillment.
SPEAKER_02He is the law. Judge Dredd is not the law, Jesus is the law, yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um and and wonderfully, Jesus isn't only the standard, he's the savior as well. I mean, this is the issue we're dealing with at the moment, isn't it? Well a few commentators have pointed out. Um, this guy Charles Taylor has this argument where he says, look, the problem, and I think he's he's making sense here, he says, the problem with humanism is that they thought they were doing us a favor by doing away with the doctrine of sin and total depravity. But what we've done is we've set such a high bar that when we don't meet that bar, we just get angry and we expect people to be able to do it, and when they can't, they're cancelled. This is where the doctrine of sin is actually quite a good thing because it realizes there is forgiveness, there is, there can be restoration. And so Jesus is both the savior and the standard as well. And that's a wonderful Christian truth that I think at the moment, especially, we're really struggling with. And even secular commentators, you know, we'll have read like Douglas Murray and others, they recognize there's a problem here. Unfortunately, I don't think they have the solution, they don't see it. But um, I think it's it's there, it's in part of the kind of the in the in the DNA of the gospel there.
SPEAKER_02Yes. Uh you've mentioned Charles Murray, um, a secular age, so big fat book, Canadian Catholic philosopher um who works with the whole premise that look, 500 years ago it was pretty pretty impossible to be an atheist. Now it seems pretty impossible to be a Christian. Now it now it seems like the natural thing not to be a Christian, whereas 500 years ago that was uh exactly the the opposite. And he tells the story of of how we got to where we are, and he he kind of talks about us being in in incredibly disenchanted in this age. It's a secular age, we live it as these buffered selves. Um like is that I mean certainly that is a perspective on modern life. Yes. And it explains much. But where where where do you come to? Is that uh are we living in a secular age?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I mean, I I try and tee this up a little bit. So I I actually I do think the idea that we are um that the secular is not simply about what we believe, it's about believability. So it's not what we believe, it's how we hold beliefs. I do think that that is an issue. And Taylor, the Taylor has this idea of us being cross-pressured, and you will know that when people come to faith at the moment, because there's so many options, their faith can be very fragile because there's so many different possibilities. So I I kind of recognize that that's quite helpful. Um, I mean, the one of the issues that I have with Charles Taylor is that he's not a great fan of the Reformation, and I I am a as we are, we're both Protestant Christians, and that's a big thing, and that's an important thing. And actually, I'm quite glad that we're disenchanted in some ways. You if you go to countries that haven't been through a reformation, there's far more kind of superstition that I think we should be kind of worried about as as Christians. I mean, that's that's a sidebar really, but I think that that's important to note. But yeah, I I think um I think Taylor says some good stuff. I do think though that as we look at the what the Bible says about human beings, we are incurably religious. That's the that's the phrase that that Paul uses. And that it's not, as I say in the book, I know it's a little naff, we're not disenchanted, we're definitely differently enchanted, and we'll believe all kinds of things. And maybe there is a kind of a de-institutionalized understanding um of religion or spirituality, however you want to call it. But um, yeah, I I think it's um I I like to think I don't like the word religion because I think it gives the idea that there's religion and there's the secular. Whereas I think biblically speaking, all human beings are religious, all people have desires and ultimate commitments, and that's a much more healthy way of understanding, and also then gives a level playing field for us to be able to talk about differences of worldview that that that people have. So I think, you know, two two cheers for Charles Taylor. Um, I mean, I I kind of parroted, I kind of oppose him with this other guy you may have um come across, this historian Rodden Stark, who uh he looks at a lot of quality quantitative research to say that you know, 45% of Americans believe in guardian angels. And I kind of I kind of believe that. And we're living in that complexity, aren't we, where some of our friends are kind of those kind of Dawkins, Stephen Fry hard scientists, but they're still human beings. And I think if you push people, um, we're kind of we are built for worship, and that has to come out somewhere. And what I'm I I just think we need to have confidence in in making those connections, even though, yeah, there might be a top level, as we've seen, you know, with a certain view of science, especially during corona, in terms of what the science is. But again, if you push hard enough, there are big faith commitments that are going on there.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and there's all sorts of people that think, oh, this is all because of 5G as well. And and you know, and the conspiracy theories, and yeah. And I think so much of our kind of evangelism and apologetics is aimed at the Richard Dawkins types, yeah. When I think a far greater proportion of society would believe in guardian angels than you know. I mean, how many atheists fall over themselves to tell you I'm an atheist, but I'm not like Richard Dawkins?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah, yeah. Or I don't I'd like to believe in Guardian angels. I mean, in again, in plugged in, I talk about that Julian Barnes book, Nothing to Be Scared of, where he starts the book, you know, I don't believe in God, but I miss him. And I think that that is much more where I think people might be than kind of the hard, you know, naturalist who just believes that nature is all that there is. I think we do struggle with that John Lennon idea that above us is enemy sky. I think we're always trying, and what what Magnetic's trying to do is to say, yeah, there's all kinds of ways that this comes out, and it can come out in very weird ways, and and sometimes you you have To dig deep, but they'll always be there because at the end of the day, this is how the Bible tells us that we're made.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. And I I I picked this up from an American charismatic guy, but he he will, in his evangelism, always ask people, have you ever had a religious experience? And of course, in our corner of the Christian world, like we don't believe in religion, and we certainly don't believe in experience. That's a total no-no. And yet, but I'm not trying to evangelize my little tribe. I'm I'm trying to talk to people, and people know what you're talking about when you talk about a religious experience. And even the most Dawkinsite naturalist will say, well, you know, there are explanations for this, but when I held my firstborn, dot dot dot, or whatever, whatever that religious experience is. And I I I just think we we are so primed in our evangelism to a secular age to try to defeat naturalism. Yeah. When actually there's a there's a far greater openness to supernaturalism out there.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and and I think especially, I mean, with um, I mean, again, I'm not living in in London now, but um that in London it's very much the case, you know, invariably when I used to get a taxi, you know, that it'll be it would be a Muslim driver with an evil eye, the kind of a thing that's coming down, and again, you know, that there's a very there's an openness. I think that's it's interesting. I think that's probably the difference between when Bavick was writing, where I think the higher power was almost the first thing you came to, and then you looked at the other points. I think in our context, maybe the higher power, you have to dig a bit more and you have to go from the other points in, but you kind of get to the same point about this issue of transcendence and is there a is is there something beyond? And then as soon as you start saying that, then there's opportunities to talk about what that thing person is, and then uh and then yeah, obviously to be able to get to talk about Christ, that's where we have to get to. Yeah, um, that's key.
SPEAKER_02So, Dan, final question. What what do you hope for the book?
SPEAKER_01So, um, well, obviously, I hope people are going to read it, but I I hope people are gonna read it in community to be able to kind of say, okay, let's get together, let's look at this framework and say, how could it apply, how could we apply it, how could I apply it to my life, my own kind of um walk with Jesus? How might that then affect my relationships, but also then communally, um, let's get together. I mean, I'm on a bit of a kind of collaboration drive at the moment. How, how, as Christians in the UK at the moment, are we going to collaborate together uh to be able to kind of uh help each other out? And I think we need to do that in in our local communities as well as more generally as well. So that's my my my hope and prayer for the book. And that people will feel encouraged if they feel as if they've been kind of trying to get traction and they're just kind of slipping down, that that that there's always this point of contact. And at the end of the day, you know, we need to be praying, we need to pray that the Lord gives us those opportunities. It's only the Lord that makes a dead heart alive, and so you know, I don't feel the burden of responsibility, even though I do have the responsibility to give that reason for a hope in the most effective and plausible way that I can. Um, so that that's some of my prayers for the book.
SPEAKER_02Wonderful. And people can catch up with you where, Dan?
SPEAKER_01Uh so yeah, please uh go to uh the Crosslands uh uh website. You'll if you Google it, it'll come up very quickly. I I'm I'm the director of Crosslands Forum. If you want to get the book, obviously it's available at uh uh uh the usual places. Um if you go to the Good Book Company website, there's all kinds of videos, some better than others. The animated ones are good, the ones where me I kind of cringe at, but you can look at all of them where I'm talking about the book. There's some great graphics, infographics, some cartoons where they've done a really great job in trying to illustrate the the uh these magnetic points. So please uh go there and uh yeah, read the book.
SPEAKER_02That sounds great. Yes, everybody should read the book. It's called Making Faith Magnetic. It's by Dr. Daniel Strange.
SPEAKER_00Well, there we go. Hope you enjoyed that. We didn't have a speakeasy this week uh with uh Glenn and Nate uh for various reasons, partly because of the building work that's going on in Speak Life, which we're very excited about, making the building spick and span for all the training we're doing and all the other things we do. Do subscribe to the Speat Life Podcast on your podcatcher of choice, and we will catch you next time. God bless. Goodbye.