Hello and welcome to the Speak Life Podcast. My name is Thomas Thurrogood and I work here at Speak Life and I'm joined by Mr.
SPEAKER_07Paul Feasy, and I rarely work here at Speak Life.
SPEAKER_04Well you're in Mondays and Tuesdays.
SPEAKER_07I know, but I don't really do much when I'm here, that's what I'm saying.
SPEAKER_04You're an integral member of the team, Paul.
SPEAKER_07That's worrying, isn't it?
SPEAKER_04Well so what is the subject of uh today's podcast?
SPEAKER_07Well we thought we'd keep it light this week, you know, nothing too uh controversial. So we're talking about vaccines. There's a lot of there was a bit of division in the comments going on. We don't mention hugely what was going on in the comments while it was live, but uh there was quite a bit going on. Unfortunately, I mean I think really we were part of the thing we're talking about uh in in this is that we might be on different sides, but hopefully there's a there's a middle way for us. Yeah. Um I think that didn't necessarily come out in the comments as people did. Made it clear which side they were on.
SPEAKER_04Right.
SPEAKER_07Um so you know, as you listen, probably you are on one side or the other, and you know, despite what you might take perhaps from some of the bits that get said, we're not trying to be on one side or the other on this issue, really. We are hopefully trying to find what what is a Christian way through it when actually the natural thing is for people to divide up into sides. Yeah. Um and hopefully there is a way, and hopefully you'll find that helpful because it is it is quite a divisive one at the moment, isn't it?
SPEAKER_04But yeah, we'll catch you in the middle of the show for our rambles.
SPEAKER_07See you soon. And tonight I'm joined by Glenn Scriveno. How are you doing, Glenn?
SPEAKER_01I'm very well, thank you. Yeah, looking forward to tonight.
SPEAKER_07Yep, goods, had a nice week.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, had a great week. Uh went swimming with the kids on the weekends and uh yep, dunked them in the pool many times and uh they didn't hate it by the end. So that was a that was a win. That's good.
SPEAKER_07That's a good positive, good nice, nice. And we haven't got Nate with us tonight. Um not because he's gonna turn up halfway through like Glenn did last week. Um he's actually not here uh because he's actually having some time off with the family. So um if you are tuning into the Speakeasy um because you just love to hear Nate's wacky conspiracy theories, um I'm afraid you'll be out of luck this week. There'll be no Nadal, Cabal. No. Was there another one last week? That's where there was another one that came up, something slightly different. Yeah. It was it was world building. These conspiracy things are just going out and out. Yes. Aren't they? So it all started there.
SPEAKER_01But um So whatever crazy stuff we come up with tonight, we can just pin it on Nate. I think Nate was whispering earlier. Yeah. Yep, yeah.
SPEAKER_07Well we're gonna we are gonna we are you know we are gonna keep talking about controversial things, though we're not ones to shy away from controversy here on the Speak Easy. Um and we're uh kind of happy to jump in and stir the pot on things. And uh at least one of tonight's topics is potentially a little bit controversial. A little bit.
SPEAKER_01A little bit. Yeah.
SPEAKER_07I suppose over the last few weeks when we've talked about um Novak Djokovic and all the things there to do vaccines, a couple of things that came up a number of times was to do with um vilification of the unvaccinated. Right. And people kind of said, you know, oh, we we need to hear some more about this, don't drop the ball on this guy's. Um and we still don't really know what exactly Which ball and in which direction where we're supposed to be dropping it or not.
SPEAKER_01Um advancing the ball.
SPEAKER_07But a lot of the what we're talking about tonight kind of came off the back of a tweet that you put out.
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SPEAKER_07Uh it wasn't this week, was it?
SPEAKER_01It was within the last seven days or so.
SPEAKER_07Yes. Do you want me to put the tweet up? Oh, and do we have it? Okay. So this is this is the tweet Glenn put up.
SPEAKER_01Okay, read it carefully. Yeah. Some people did not read the tweet carefully.
SPEAKER_07So Glenn just said the Christian position is to be anti-vax. What did he say that? No. No, he didn't say that. He said the Christian position, as it says on the screen, is to be anti-vexed.
SPEAKER_01And that's not just me trying out a New Zealand accent.
SPEAKER_07No, so what what are you What are you banging on about? When uh it's a pun for a start. Okay, good. Um thanks for letting us know.
SPEAKER_01Based on the idea that let's not be vexatious about this, let's not be ourselves overly vexed by the issue, overly um worried, fretful about the situation, and um overly contentious in the ways that we want to set up um the the different camps. But of course, that is what the whole issue of of vaccines has become. I think it is the most fractious um issue in the world at the moment. Yeah, currently, I would say that's probably and and it's it's redrawing the map on other global divides that we've had. So there are other kind of culture war issues that have been bouncing around for quite some time now. Um and it's just interesting that that vaccines has now revealed fault lines between people in in perhaps a surprising way or perhaps not a surprising way. Um but it it it has tended to be um there's there's the um uh Australian pastor and writer um Mark Sayers um who kind of goads his more conservative American listenership by saying, you know, Australia, um, you know, being more pro-lockdown and um and uh more pro-vax, uh Australia tends to be the more pro-life position. Whereas American conservatives, says Mark Sayers, they're more pro pro-choice. Right. Which is an extremely um he's quite an ireneic kind of guy, usually, but that that's that's quite a dynamite way of of putting the situation. And there's all sorts of differences in the two issues between abortion and vaccines, all sorts of issues. Um but in terms of the highest values that people hold, what we're finding is in the vaccine resistance a huge um value placed on individual liberty and civil liberties and what really the government's gonna tell me what I put into my arm? Really? And so bodily integrity sometimes completely becomes like this this massive issue and my body, my choice. Yep, right? Sure becomes um a really um a really dear value that the vaccine resistance kind of hold on to. Whereas on the other side, um there are those saying, hey, we're all in this together, and for the preservation of life, then you limit your freedoms, don't you? And you have a sense of community and and that sort of thing. And so there's there's something to that provocative comment by Mark Sayers, um, that that actually we've had a pro-choice, pro-life divide that has fallen along quite different lines. And so it's yeah, it's revealing real fault lines. I mean, have you seen it even at like the local level in terms of um I mean I've seen well, it's clearly divisive.
SPEAKER_07Yeah. I mean, and and I know so actually just uh I think I've said to you before, outside our church on a Sunday morning on the on the green, there's a group that meets with a big kind of banner that says like say no to medical apartheid and stuff like that, honk if you're concerned and things. And they I mean they've grown from about you know two people to probably twenty or so, and they've got a piano and everything now. But they have songs.
SPEAKER_01I don't know what they're singing like but um yeah, certainly in the comments, what should they sing?
SPEAKER_07What do you mean? What would you sing? Anti-vax anthem. Yeah. What would it be? Yeah.
SPEAKER_01But well do they say they're anti-vax or are they just against medical apartheid? I know that's an interesting discussion. Well, this is the thing.
SPEAKER_07So that that that's interesting. So most people's reactions seeing that, and because people will talk about it on Facebook, is to be very just negative about that group of people, and to say, well, like clearly these people are idiots, basically, for one of a better word, you know. Um and they're the problem, you know, they're the problem. This is you know, if if people were just going out and getting their vaccines, we'd all be sorted. Um and so it's not a gracious conversation. And I'm not talking about I'm not talking about Christians here, I'm just talking about all kinds of things going on on Facebook. Um so it's not a gracious thing. And but you see on Facebook or Twitter in in any thread about this, don't you, that there are people who are just chiming in and are very very aggressive on both sides, actually, towards uh each other. Um But I mean, do we do we want to because you you actually wrote a bit more on your tweets, didn't you, there? Do we want to kind of go down a little bit and just see what you said about surprisingly about some of this?
SPEAKER_01So um Yeah, let's hear what I said.
SPEAKER_07Let's hear more from Ken, you know. Um so uh that was our initial tweet. There was Christian positions to be anti-VEX. Yeah. Um and then you said I've seen some pro vax slash pro-mandate people, not all, calling for the unvaccinated, which you say is a horrible designation, to be left out on the street by the NHS if they get ill. Two years ago they'd be horrified by the idea of the NHS leaving anyone out. Often the same people who hate to divide the deserving from the undeserving poor have begun to do precisely that when it comes to vaccine status and to do it with wide-eyed, self-justified zeal, provax and provex at the same time.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And I've definitely seen that. And I've definitely seen people who two years ago, if you'd said to the very same person and you say, All right, the NHS should not treat the morbidly obese. Because they've made their choice, right? And they've become more medically vulnerable, and why should they take up a bed when they develop whatever you know diseases that are you know associated with morbid obesity, right? They they were told by their GP what kind of diets would lead to high cholesterol, and they did it anyway. It's their choice, and why should they take up a bed when a hell a deserving person gets ill, right? There's a certain sort of person who would absolutely hate that argument, right? Who are so pro they clap the NHS like all through the night and just they just they just love they're just so you know, they're so bought into free at the point of access and and we're all in it together, and you know, isn't the NHS the you know the the the great bastion of of you know social care around the world and they'd say all that kind of stuff. And two years later, that very same person finds themselves saying, if you're unvaccinated, you go to the back of the queue, and if you die, you die, beard on your own head. And I've seen people with real zeal arrive at that latter position, which I think is extraordinary. Like I I do. Like like I'm I'm triple jabbed, right? But I I I can't stand the people who put that in their bio as th as those shook. You know? It's like your your kind of vaccine righteousness. Profile pictures, you know. Yeah, the three the three syringes. You know who you are. I too have three syringes, but you don't hear me going on about uh except tonight. But like uh you know, I I I say that to give my credentials so that I can then go on to say um I think it's a really dystopian vision for a society where we even have like the unvaccinated with a capital T, capital U. And there was a protest just this weekend where um NHS staff um protested about there's gonna be a mandate currently, I believe, where if you're not fully vaccinated by the first of April, you cannot work in the NHS anymore. No jab, no job. I I'm I'm uncomfortable with that. I'm very I'm very comfortable with saying if you move out of this country into another country, you've got to make sure you got your jabs. You know, Nate was getting ready to go to West Africa, you need to have your jabs. We're all we're all used to when we travel, get your vaccinations. I'm quite used. What I'm not what I'm very um uncomfortable with is people finding themselves in their own country, in their own place, doing their own job, um, being clapped by everybody in the NHS, and then suddenly they find that they've they've got to, you know, they've got to receive this thing from outside themselves that they are uncomfortable with. Um So I'm very uncomfortable with vaccine mandates within your own borders and for people who are already trying to help.
SPEAKER_07That's a helpful distinction because actually actually, as we talked about this a little bit earlier, we said I think we we sometimes find it hard to dis to distinguish that, don't we? That we think if you are anti a mandate, you must be anti-vax. Yeah. But those two things don't necessarily go together. They might do.
SPEAKER_01They don't but things get so blurry because at that same protest where there were NHS workers saying, hey, we're in it together, we're trying to battle COVID together, um, you know, they in some senses join forces with, and in other ways, anti-vaxxers kind of were part of that protest as well. And so they form a coalition, they form an alliance. And so it just becomes really difficult, as it does in every culture war. There come these surprising alliances. Aaron Ross Powell, Jr.
SPEAKER_07And so then what does it mean to be not necessarily anti-vax, but anti-vex? What's that all about?
SPEAKER_01I think I think it's being able to see things from the other side. Um Amanda Kay uh had a great um line. She says uh there is no correct position, only a correct position of the heart. Humility, mercy, and love towards those the culture war would have us view as enemies. So I think I think that's absolutely right. I I I think I think it's incumbent on me as someone who is thankful to God for vaccines and can see the huge benefit that that there is, not only for for COVID, but for you know, measles and polio and all sorts of things. Um our life expectancy wouldn't would not be what it is today. Our lives would not be what they are today without the blessing that God has ultimately brought through, you know, advances in science of vaccines. But it's incumbent on me to put myself in the shoes of someone who says, you know what, it's a kind of it's a disturbing world where the government requires you to take something into your body that you don't you don't understand and even very, very clever people don't quite understand. And if you do not, you're out on the street. It's uh that does have the the ring of a science fiction dystopian novel to it. On the other hand, I I think if if you are very vaccine hesitant, um I think it's incumbent on you to to read the science from sources that are beyond the echo chamber. And and I know many will will listen to this and they'll say, look, you know, I do, I do read the science, and what you don't understand is this, this, and this. But I I think we all need to we all need to realize that we get siloed off into our our little you know echo chambers on social media. And if you find yourself that if you find that YouTube keeps sending you the same kinds of videos by the same kinds of people, you will you will end up going in the same kind of direction. You gotta you gotta actively fight against that and actively look at the the best evidence that's out there. And I do I do think the best evidence that's out there is that vaccines not only help you to survive COVID better, but help you not to transmit it to others. Um and people will probably be really angry at me saying that, you know. But but um okay. But my my my plea is read beyond the echo chamber and and recognize that we do live in a very complex world where probably even even to be watching our Speakeasy tonight, um in your internet history, you would have had to have clicked the anyway button, uh the the the um the whatever button a hundred times. The whatever button is the things that the terms and services, the terms and conditions. Oh yeah. You know, in in order to have your browser, in order to get onto lots of different websites, um you've y you know, you live in a complex world in which you just have to you have to accept stuff. You have to take stuff on faith. And uh we're living in a in a world in which you kind of have to take a lot on faith, including, I think, uh medical treatments, actually. And we are not experts ourselves and we can't be the epidemiologists, we can't be the scientists that that you know understand these these things. And I understand that there's been a breakdown of trust and a lack of trust in all sorts of experts. Um but if we're gonna have a society at all, we really do need um at some level a trust in medical experts and uh and a submission to the greater good of the society. Now that grates against all the individualist libertarian kind of uh values that the vaccine resistant hold to. But the Christian position is not to be an individualist and the Christian position is not is not to say I distrust the government. Um Well, actually I think a more Christian position is we are in this together, and there is such a thing as society. Okay, don't label it as the government or the state, but at least think about it in terms of society and we are woven together, there's a moral fabric that we exist in in bonds of love with one another. Um and it can't just be me and my individual choice. And usually the people in the Christian community who are most vaccine resistant understand that when it comes to the pro-life abortion issue. We recognize that there's a higher value than just my body, my choice. We recognize that there are there are higher values to to hold on to. Um now that's so I've I've done enough to anger that side of things. But can we can we demonstrate that we understand the other side's arguments and and and show a bit of grace across the across the aisle?
SPEAKER_07Yeah, and I th I mean I think obviously in the time we've got, which is you know, kind of ticking away already, we there you don't have the time to go into the different all the nuances of these things on on both sides. Um but I think the obvious thing, I mean the thing that seems clear to me is that regardless where you come down on it, if you're pro or anti, um it divides people into these two groups, or uh people seem to be dividing themselves down these lines anyway. And it is the case, uh as has classically been the case in the sort of cultural wars of the last few years. If you're on the other side from me, I shall consider you to be worse than Hitler, and vice versa. Um you know and whatever your view is, as Christians, surely we ought to model something different. So you may well be a Christian on the who's who's anti-vax or vaccine hesitant, whatever you want to call it, and is not vaccinated. You may be someone who is completely behind the vaccines and thinks everybody should get it, and maybe thinks that people who aren't getting it are doing absolutely the wrong thing. But there has to be something in the way we treat one another as Christians. And not what not just as Christians, uh other the way we treat other Christians but also non-Christians, yeah. That we don't just kind of do this sort of both sides have this propensity, don't they, to be self-righteous about it. No, we're the we're the we're we're the knowledgeable few who really know, not like those fools over there. Thank goodness I'm not like them over there. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Exactly. Like this this meme that I put on Twitter the other day, um taken from American Psycho, which which is not a uh film that I uh it's not a particularly Christian film, let's put it that way. Um Christian Bale's character is a murderous psychopath. Um but uh for those just listening, um he's giving this kind of smirky, smommy smile. And uh the caption uh on the top half of the meme says, This is this is what the vaccinated waiting for the unvaccinated to die looks like. And there he is just smiling, waiting for the unvaccinated to die. Uh but then the bottom half of the meme is exactly the opposite. It's the unvaccinated waiting for the vaccinated to die. And it's it's this very unpleasant idea of um so deriding the other side and so thinking that you have the secret knowledge. So like the unvaccinated have the secret knowledge to know that the vaccines are doing more harm than good. And then the vaccinated, you know, knowing that they have the truth and that those, you know, those poor Rubes, the unvaccinated, and then wishing the other side um harm. And and people are wishing the other side harm. Uh man, we gotta watch that. But chur church is a place where I I think um the two sides can actually coexist. Um and this is what's been so hard for pastors for the last two years is because they've got people with really, really diametrically opposed views on lockdown or not, vaccine or not, mandate or not, living together as family. And that's hugely difficult for pastors, but it's also really suggestive of um hope. Like, can can we build communities where you know last Sunday the within the the two people I spoke to back to back, one of them like spoke at me with with you know with a with a mask about I cannot understand why people walk through the shopping centre without masks. It's like it's biological warfare and what you know, what are they thinking? And then the very next person is choked. Totally anti-Marks uh an anti mask and um and these people are sitting side by side in church. That's really difficult, but it's also really hopeful. Can we can we be a place where we build a community where we reach out across the aisle and you know, let's just take communion together, eat and drink together, and maybe we can discover that the other side is not the enemy.
SPEAKER_07Yep, absolutely. Well, let us know. I mean, people are already commenting on uh on the this there and uh the situation. So we'll we'll come back to some of those comments in a moment. If you've got any thoughts to kind of add, um I don't where's the camera? I can't even see where the camera is. Look at over there. Um if you've got any thoughts to add on that, do throw them in uh in the next few minutes because we're gonna come back to your comments in a moment. But before we do that, Glenn, um today you I think it was today, you did an interview, didn't you, with was it just with Andrew Sanch?
SPEAKER_01Andrew Satch, um, who has co-written a book with Jonathan Gemmel called Are You 100% sure you want to be an agnostic? Clever. Dunno. Which is the right answer. Um very clever, very funny title, and it's a clever, funny, quirky book, and uh I really enjoyed chatting to Andrew Satch, and we've got a little clip of one of the questions that I ask. Let's have a look at that and uh we'll tell you where you can catch up with the rest of it. I just wondered, um, Andrew, as you get towards the end of the book, where do you think, in a best case scenario, you bring people to?
SPEAKER_00So you mentioned a a questionnaire. We have a questionnaire at the beginning and the same questionnaire at the end, and we we call it the agnostic diagnostic, which we were incredibly pleased with. Um but I can I can say this because it's actually this is John, my co-author's humour, so I think it's brilliant. But um strongly agree. I've started on a journey that's already beginning to change my life. Strongly disagree. I've already set fire to a corner of this book, and the warm glow I now experience from its pages is the first tangible benefit it's brought me. So that's the introduction to John's humour. But um, yeah, I it it what we'd love for people to do is um to not be so sure that they're not sure, you know, to be a bit more agnostic about the agnosticism and to realize the safe of the fence is not as safe as they thought or as comfortable as they thought, and that there might be something really beautiful on the Christian side of the fence. As in it's it's Jesus is worth getting off the fence for because what he's offering is I mean, it's true, it's rational, you don't have to throw your brain away, but it's also really good. Um, he wants forgiveness and life and joy. And why would you hide from it? I mean, mate, there's been a lot of fake news about the gospel, I think, and people think I need to keep it at arm's length because um it would be, you know, we talk about we had a book launched last week and we served Schlur deliberately because there's a Jake in the book about Christian parties, Schlur is Christian champagne, and so we serve that. But that's you know, that's people's stereotype of it's just a religion of don't and it's just you know, your favorite Netflix show has to suddenly be songs of praise back to back, and um where it's actually Jesus is a lot more exciting than that.
SPEAKER_01So uh Andrew Satch uh is uh a really thoughtful, um, really clever uh and a really funny guy, and together with Jonathan Gemmel uh they've written this book, and uh so we we kind of go through it. Um we'll be releasing that video, that interview uh on Friday evening. So um, yeah, do catch up with that and catch up with the book. Well, we're back in the middle. How's how are you doing?
SPEAKER_07Yep, good. You know, we're half halfway through now, so no, we're all good so far. Hopefully you found what we've said so far to be useful and thought-provoking. Um but as always, we're gonna dive into our own mailbag. Because we've started to say, haven't we, wouldn't it be nice to have a bit of feedback on the podcast itself from people? So that you, good listener, um, and we've said a good place to give that feedback is at the uh email address info at speaklife.org.uk. Um and uh we'd love to hear what you think about the podcast because it's always evolving, or it can be evolving. Yeah. But we need to know what to evolve into. That's it. How will this help? So um now I don't think anyone has emailed in yet.
SPEAKER_04No. Um I think people are they're workshopping their emails, you know, they're they're honing them. Planning them out.
SPEAKER_07Yes, yes. But it's okay, you can send us unpolished emails, you know, you don't have to, you know, run them through a hundred spell checkers or and yeah, and even though you might listen to us and think, surely, these guys are so polished in what they do, as I as these segments obviously show, yeah. You might be intimidated in some ways to to send in your just brief thoughts off the top of your head. But feel free, because we we will take anything. But we have had some comments this week. We did have a message in, not specifically about the podcast, but we did have a message to the Facebook page from uh Rasheed, and Rasheed simply said hi. That was it. He just said hi. Rasheed said hi. So hi Rasheed, if you're watching. I don't I I've got a feeling Rasheed might be a bot and might not be a genuine listener or supportive of Speak Life.
SPEAKER_04So But even so we're really grateful for the for the input and um we hope you keep enjoying engaging with and and connecting with our our content.
SPEAKER_07We value even the artificial intelligences that speak to us via the medium of the internet.
SPEAKER_04All are welcome. Yeah. Yeah, and and and do do um we sound desperate now.
SPEAKER_07No, we've got nothing, people. We've got nothing. This is it, right? You've got to start sending things, alright. We're not we're not just doing this for fun when we're asking for feedback. We need something, alright, or we're just gonna have to keep talking. Right?
SPEAKER_04But but the thing is, I I know I know quite a few people do listen to this podcast, and I've um God bless you. Yeah, no, so so so do get in touch. Um I know you I know the feeling because I listen to a lot of podcasts, and I kind of think, oh, someone else will write in. But if everyone has that attitude, then no one will write in. So that's very true. Honestly, um, yeah, if you have have some reflections or or think uh yeah, you just want to say hi, have some thoughts about the podcast, don't be ashamed, you know. We're all friends here.
SPEAKER_07Absolutely, you know. We anything more than the word hi is is a step up from where we're at right now. So even hi guys can be better. Well, let's not get ahead of ourselves. Um can you imagine the giddy heights of those kind of responses?
SPEAKER_04We can dream, Paul.
SPEAKER_07We can but dream. Anyway. It's the final section. It's the final section of the podcast now. Where we're about to go and talk about a film, and uh we'll hand you back to myself and Glenn. So one of the things you said, Glenn, was that you know someone might say on one side, well, my body, my choice. Yes. Um, and Christoph said, We recognise that the body of the baby is a different body. You know, so my body, my choice may be an argument for suicide, but not for abortion. A baby is another body.
SPEAKER_01Yes. Yeah. That's absolutely right. And and so you can take a l sort of a libertarian position that is pro-life, uh, because you're saying, well, you do not have the right to um uh to invade the bodily integrity of the baby um ins inside the woman. And so you consistently are pro-life on a libertarian footing, and you're consistently kind of vaccine hesitant on a libertarian footing. I th I think I think that's true and and that works. I would just say that in addition to freedom, um th there are other values to to be considered, you know, when it when it comes to living well, living ethic ethically in the world. And I'm sure um Christoph kind of agrees that liberty is not um is not the supreme value uh in all these things. Um and that we live together in in bonds of love where actually giving up my rights for the sake of others is important. So Paul does that really fascinating thing in 1 Corinthians and elsewhere of maintaining he has certain rights precisely in order to give them up. You know? And Christoph also sort of talks about you know, what about the science about mask wearing? It seems to flip-flop, and you know, can you show me good reasons why I should wear a mask outside? I really can't show you any good reasons why you should wear a mask outside. Um and and there has been a lot of nonsense spoken during this pandemic. A heck of a lot of nonsense.
SPEAKER_07Has anyone said to wear them outside?
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Like um there were there were mandates. So when when Pete and I were in Rome, they were just about to bring in mandates where you had to wear masks outdoors.
SPEAKER_07Um when I see people wearing them in their cars by themselves. That does make me chuckle a little bit. I do feel a little bit self-righteous at that point there, if I'm honest. Thank you, I'm not like them.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right. But and then and at that but at that stage, can we both chuckle and say, Oh, for goodness sakes, I'll wear the mask. And like and the way Paul like like he lays out his rights, he lays out what the strong Christian feels about Sabbath and about eating the right sorts of food and all that kind of stuff. And then but then at the end of it, he says, although I'm free not to do any of this stuff, I'll keep kosher for the rest of my life if it helps preach the gospel. And I think we should do I think we should have that kind of mentality as well.
SPEAKER_07Yeah, Carol Donaldson just said sacrificially giving up one's rights is such a foreign concept in our narcissistic society. And you know, that's obviously absolutely true, isn't it? And I mean I think we you know if you're talking about Paul there saying about laying down right I have rights, I lay them down, but you know, I uh and I always think of you know Jesus is the one ultimately, isn't he? Um you know, he's the one who is prepared to lay down his rights for the sake of others. Um now what we think that might all look like, yeah, you know, yeah, there's discussion to be had there, but of course I think right at the heart of the Christian message there is that, isn't there?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and Jackie Null says yes in Spain too. I take it Jackie's referring to masks outdoors. Um it's just it's just interesting so temperamentally how different countries have have handled this, and and some people some people just like, yeah, okay, the government tells me what to do, whatever. Um and and one one word that I would say is that like like I've I've been pretty um like like I I have kind of smirked and smiled and kind of shrugged my shoulders at so much of what governments have said over the last two years and so much of what scientists have said and thought I don't think this is really, is this really? Um But there's a way there's a way of like saying government is overreacting!
SPEAKER_02Government is totally overreacting.
SPEAKER_01Where you're the one who's overreacting. Right.
unknownYou know?
SPEAKER_02Like there are some people who are just like, Oh, we've locked down far too hard, and you know, all these different you know, rules and regulations, we've gone far too hard on the rules and regulations, they're overreacting! They're over they're hysterical, they're hysterical.
SPEAKER_01I think you're hysterical at that point.
SPEAKER_02You know?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, absolutely. And I do think historically you look at governments that overreact to stuff, and and I think the Church of Jesus Christ down through the ages has just kind of gone, yeah, yeah, yeah. Government governments tend to do that. And the church gets on and preaches Jesus. And and maybe if we just have more of a sense of, you know what, this COVID thing, it might take ten years, right? It it might it might be like a massive factor in our lives for the next ten years. And all sorts of people will do all sorts of nonsense things, and governments might might make all sorts of ridiculous things. Um can we can we take a much longer view than just you know it's apocalyptic? You're like, well maybe maybe it's not apocalyptic. Maybe this is not the apocalypse. You know? May may maybe we've been here before. Like again and again and again. The Church of Jesus Christ has faced pandemics and it's it's been the making of the church so many times. But not when we lose our heads. Sure.
SPEAKER_07Cool. Well, um lots of thoughts on that, guys. Do um let us keep knowing your thoughts. If you're watching this after the live uh thing itself, do put your comments down uh below and we'll try and chat about them hopefully next week because we do try and go back into the mailbag. We didn't actually get a lot of comments on last week's video because we had a few issues with sound um last week, so we apologise for that. Um but we did get a lot of comments because last week we showed um the new Foundry video, which was also put out as a separate video, and a lot of people have been enjoying that. Um, from Thomas Thoroughgood, who's been uh who made that for us. Um nice comments about that. John O'Miles said great work, speak lifers. I enjoyed the humorous take on it all. Highly recommend uh the foundry for any Christian Christian creatives. Uh Andrew Moore also enjoyed Thomas's video. He said, Brilliant video, guys, love the humorous nature of it. And Finley Beauchamp said, Thomas Thoroughgood, this is iconic. So we're we're happy to big up Thomas for the amazing job he did. If you've not seen it, maybe one of the guys who's working the computers might be able to drop a link for it in the chat um so that you can uh head on over and see that if you've not and you can find out a bit more about the Foundry that way. Um one of the comments we did have last week, though, was about the film that we discussed, because we're trying to discuss a film every week, um, and it has to be a link to the previous week, has to be over ten years old. We've already talked about the Green Mile. Um and last week we looked at the Road to Perdition. Um and Josh Lucas was kind of hoping he said the Green Mile and the Road to Perdition also share the composer Thomas Newman. This could be a great link to finding Nemo next week. So of course, today we're talking about The Talented Mr. Ripple. The talented Mr. Ripple, obviously. We're not talking about finding Nemo much as we would love to. Yep. Yep. But Glenn, you have decided, because it was kind of your choice this week. Yes.
SPEAKER_01Pick a film. Although Nate foreknew what I was going to choose. So was it really free?
SPEAKER_07Yeah, that's true. Nate.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I'm not saying Nate's omniscient, but he was able to yes. I so wanted to fox him because I I thought I could go. So Jude Law, I could go to Gattaca. I thought it was.
SPEAKER_07Yeah, I wonder if you might do Gattaca.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, interesting about um sort of a dystopian future about uh genetic engineering. Um or I could have gone with Sam Mendez's first film, which is also his Oscar winner, American Beauty, but instead I went for the talented wrist Mr. Ripley. Um which uh we watched again this afternoon. You watched it for the first time?
SPEAKER_07Yeah, not seen it until this afternoon.
SPEAKER_01So did you what did you make of it?
SPEAKER_07Uh yeah, I enjoy I enjoyed it. Um I mean it's not like a it's not like an enjoyable film in the sense of you know it's it's a kind of movie blockbuster type thing like that. But um yeah, it was interesting. There's lots of lot going on in there. I mean, do you want to sum up for people a kind of rough idea of what the film's about?
SPEAKER_01So uh Matt Damon plays Tom Ripley. Matt Damon who has to go and um like like right from the very first scene, we see Matt Damon is uh an impersonator. Matt Damon is he's a piano tuner who has um designs on being a pianist, um uh but he's very good at mimicking people. He's very good at um copying their accents, copying their signatures, and that sort of thing. And somehow he wangles the job of going to Italy to track down the Playboy son of a a big um shipping magnate. Yeah. Um uh and the the son is played by Jude Law, and so that's the link back to the yeah. And uh and Jude Law is there with his girlfriend Gwynneth Poultrow, and they are living the life of Riley. They are they are, you know, um out on the sailboat, down on the beach, spending their money. Yes, just and very, very happy with being filthy rich. And and what we see in Matt Damon's character, Tom Ripley, is a guy who is just infatuated with Jude Law and infatuated with being a Jude Law kind of person who's just comfortable in his own skin and just play living the Playboy lifestyle. But increasingly Matt Damon has to lie in order to gain the confidence of Matt Damon, uh confidence of Jude Law, and in order to live this this kind of new life. But the lies snowball, and in order to sort of wear the mask, he kind of has to become the mask and lose himself, and in order to protect lie after lie after lie after lie, it eventually leads to murder, which then he has to cover up. And then we have lie after lie after lie after lie, and then there's another murder, lie after lie after lie after lie, and it finishes with a final murder that really is tragic because the last person he murders actually loves him. Yeah. And uh kind of offers him a way out. Um so should we should we watch probably the most famous scene from The Talented Mr. Ripley where Matt Damon having murdered two people is on the cusp of maybe admitting to the man he loves, Peter, um, his darkest secrets. Um will he, won't he, will will the talented Mr. Ripley finally drop the mask and allow love to come in? Well, let's have a look at this clip.
SPEAKER_06You believe it believes that must be kidding me.
SPEAKER_05Whatever you do, however terrible, however hurtful makes sense in your head. You never meet anybody who thinks they're a bad person. Don't you just take the past and put it in a room in the basement and lock the door and never go in there? That's what I do. And then you meet someone special and all you want to do is toss them the key. Say, open up, step inside, but you can't. Because it's dark demons.
SPEAKER_06I keep going into fling the door open. Just let the light in clean everything out. If I could take a giant eraser and remote everything, starting with myself. The thing is, Peter, if you're kidding.
SPEAKER_01So there we have it. Um Matt Damon wants to toss the key to Peter, someone who he's starting to love and who he thinks loves him. And because that's what he does with the past. And don't you just take the past and put it in a box in the basement and lock the door and never go in there. That's what I do, and then you meet someone special, and all you want to do is toss them the key, say, step inside, but you can't because it's dark and there are demons, and if anyone saw how ugly it is. Um It's it preaches, doesn't it? That's like like what would you what would you what would you use this as an illustration of?
SPEAKER_07Um Well, it made me think of the verses in John 3 about um everyone who does evil hates the light and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed, and whoever lives by the truth comes into light so that it may be plain seen plainly what they've done in the sight of God. Um But yeah, I mean you can see this this thing, isn't there? There's this sense of there's an awareness there of the evil within that he has the evils he's committed. Um but yet there's that inability to to let it actually be shown. So he wears this mask the whole time. You know, he wears various masks throughout the whole film, doesn't he? Tom Ripley is a mask, really, as well. You know, even his own self is the mask, let alone when he's pretending to be Dickie Greenleaf or whatever. Yeah. Um and of course, you know, we all wear these masks, don't we? We're all hypocrites, you know, even even when we're being kind of ourselves, none of us is really putting on display everything about us for the world to see because we fear if people really knew what we were like on the inside, well, would anybody actually want anything to do with us? Yeah. Um but what it made me think of as well was there's that big In the liturgy, isn't it, where it says Almighty God to whom all hearts are open, all desires known, from from whom no secrets are hidden. You know, that actually all those things that we might hide away from the world, of course, God sees. Yeah. Um and yet, whilst we were still sinners, Christ died for us. You know, it's interesting as well, like the what you were saying about when you get to the tragedy of the film is that there is the one who loves him and he kills the one who loves him, who could possibly in some sense maybe set him free. Right. Um which like I'm swear that might tie into something.
SPEAKER_01But it's it's the fo it's the photo negative of the gospel because literally, as the person who loves him is telling him all the things he loves about Tom Ripley, Tom Ripley is crushing him to death.
SPEAKER_07Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Right, you know, he's he says, you know, Tom is talented, Tom is tender, Tom is beautiful, Tom is a mystery. Tom is not a nobody, Tom has secrets. And the the genius of the film is that we don't see this, we we only hear um this murder scene. Um but what Peter doesn't realise is that Tom is actually crushing the life out of him, even as Peter is giving him grace. And so like Peter is this kind of Christ figure who could see him all the way to the bottom and still love him to the stars. He could be the light that is the best disinfectant for all the evil that's in the basement, and Tom will snuff out the saviour. Like like it's it's so hopeless. It is very bleak. Um But what's fascinating about all these kind of um kind of crime novels um is how the hero is the anti-hero, but you're still rooting for him. Like it it it kind of always happens. You've got this anti-hero who's trying to get away with murder, and you find yourself wanting him to be able to outsmart the police.
SPEAKER_07Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And there's a there's a massive part of you that's like, oh, don't turn that way, Tom, you'll get caught. Go this way. Oh, am I on? Whose side am I on? And actually it draws you into the point where you're not on the side of justice, actually. You find yourself drawn to this selfish narcissist liar who doesn't know who he is. Why am I why am I drawn to Tom Ripley? You know? Because I am Tom Ripley. Yeah, yeah. And I need the true Peter, you know.
SPEAKER_07I thought what was what really shocked me as well was there was a line, I think it was in one of the almost in the final scene where he's kind of saying he said it's better to be a fake somebody than a real nobody. Um and this film I think yeah, I think it was 1999. And I was thinking that oh it's so that it seems like such a relevant thing for the social media generation. Particularly like I in my mind I'm thinking a lot of Instagram, but it's there on everything, isn't it? It's that people are determined to project this image in order to be something that you can you know, you hear, don't you, about these people who are doing Instagram who look like they have these amazing lives. They are something, they are somebody. And look at these sponsorships they've got and look at the places they're visiting and the uh the places they're staying. But then you scratch beneath the surface and you realise actually there's uh there's nothing there, you know, it's all a kind of it's a act, it's an act, it's a sham. But better to be a fake somebody than a real nobody. And actually, as I was reading, you know, beforehand, um just I I was reading a bit about the film and someone said about the scene when when he's out on the boat with uh Jude Law's character and when that first kind of kind of scene comes that bit kind of comes to a head what happens is that Jude Law's character refers to him as boring, you know. But it's it's it's not just like oh you're quite boring. It's a really kind of just cruel like you are nobody, you're nothing kind of thing. And the person who's written on this thing they said the utter derision of lore and those borings seem to express an ultimate horror that as a human being we might be neither loved nor hated, but simply deemed unworthy of attention. Right. And I was like, Well last like can you imag that that's a social media age right there, isn't it? Can you imagine if like people don't like or dislike you, but that people can like or dislike you, that's okay. Yeah. But if you're just nothing, yeah, like that's the worst thing. Yeah, you know, um and so you know the idea, you know, here's a guy who wants to be something, and so he goes for all this thing, and it is just such a picture, isn't it, of what our lives can be like. In all you know, we want this acceptance in some way, and we will look for it in all kinds of different places. But yeah, of course, the only place we're ever gonna really find that true acceptance is with the one who sees us as we truly are and loves us all the same.
SPEAKER_01But that encounter will not be like a warm bubble bath. Sure. And he's like, I just want to toss some of the key and say, Step inside, you know, but it's not step inside. There are the dead bodies. It's like, how do you like me now? How do you like me? How do you like me? And not so much now, um, but it's it's a really ugly thing. And and you know, John 3 says it, you know, we we don't want to step into the light because our deeds are evil. John four gives a brilliant example of it. Jesus is getting nowhere with the woman of Samaria. The woman, by the well, you know, like all all his gospel kind of bullets are bouncing off her chest like she's Superman, and and and like nothing's getting in until he says, Bring your husband here. It's like, uh I haven't got a husband. Yeah, no, you haven't. You got had five husbands, the man you're with is not your husband. Like, um the that actually the path to feeling loved might run through a heck of a lot of painful self-knowledge. You know, and it's it's not gonna feel like a bubble bath to actually come into the light. It's gonna it's gonna be an exposure because we all come as uh as Tom Ripley's with masks. And the reason why we've worn the masks is we're quite aware that there's ugliness underneath. Um and so we we want to short circuit that. We we we just want the affirmation and we don't want the truth. And Jesus came, John chapter one, verse twelve, you know, verse fourteen, sorry, full of grace and truth. And it's kind of a it's kind of a a package deal. And I think the talent of Mr. Ripley shows you that. Um if you want to be known and loved, you've got to drop the act, you've gotta come clean.
SPEAKER_07Yeah. Had a couple of comments. Christoph Keating says the truth is kept secret, it's swept under the rug. If you've never known truth, you've never known love. The words of the black eyed peace. Where's the love?
SPEAKER_01Where is the love?
SPEAKER_07Yeah, no very true though, isn't it? There. And uh Zachadee, by chance, says saw it today.
SPEAKER_01No.
SPEAKER_07Same as me. So we all saw it today. Oh yeah. Interesting, but I'm generally not fancy. I know who Zachadie is now. Not a fan of stories where the bad guy gets away with it. I mean, yeah, he suffers for his crimes and is alone, but justice isn't done.
SPEAKER_01Well, isn't that interesting? 'Cause like, okay, he doesn't go to jail, but there it there is this sense of like he's cast adrift into his own kind of narcissism and like like he now can't love. He's now like he's now by he's now on his own. And I it's it's not justice in terms of a judge's gavel does not fall at the end of this and he's sentenced for his crimes. But in a sense, he doesn't get away with any of it. Because it all catches up with him. Be sure your sins will find you out, and they find him out in in a kind of a he's handed over to the the the results of his narcissism and his deceit and you know. Um so yeah, he he kind of he does get his just desserts, but j but not in in terms of kind of earthly justice. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_07Yeah, no, I kind of felt that at the end of the film. There was a there was a sense where I was a bit like, well, is this kind of the bad guy the bad guy, you know, if if you can be as black and white as that, getting away with it. But like you say, there is that sense of actually he ends up killing the one he loves.
SPEAKER_01And the best thing that could have happened to him would have been the police catching up with him much earlier, right? And the truth yeah setting him free. Right. Right. Yes. And it's uh and so this is this is the gospel, isn't it? It's either life is either excruciating or it's hell. There's either a cross, which is a r a real kind of revelation of love and wrath together. Here's grace, grace and truth coming together, it's an intervention and it's not pleasant. But if you don't have that intervention, y you continue on in the self-deceit and and it's hell. Um so yeah, there's not there's not an intervention earlier, but in some ways that's that's even worse for Tom Ripley. Because you can just there might be hope for Tom Ripley if he goes to jail. And if he's because throughout the film there's there's mirrors all the time. Always mirrors, and he's always looking away from the mirror, always looking away from the mirror, always dodging the reflection. So in in a sense, the most hellish thing that could happen to him is for consequences not to come into his life and for him to be left with himself. Which is what it's just it's just such a hopeless ending.
SPEAKER_07Well, enjoyed is a strange term for it, but you know, I I did kind of enjoy watching it and the comments like who should we go next? Um last week you announced what you're doing, but obviously Nate's not here, so you can't tell us what we want to go to. Next week we talk about sliding doors like who knows. Yeah, so uh but uh hopefully we'll we'll have a good one for next week as well. Um do let us uh some of you guys are already commenting down there, do let us know if you've seen it, let us know some thoughts on Tanti Mr. Ripley, let us know some other films, uh, because I'm sure Nate wouldn't mind some suggestions as well. Uh remember it's gotta be linked to this film in some way so it can have the same actor. Um, or it doesn't have to be an actor, it could be the same director. Uh it has to be more than ten years old. But and also it can't be another Jude Law film though now, can it? Because we've done two in a row, so it can't have the same link twice. Phew. So it has to be Yeah, what are we gonna get next? The holiday. Please another hellish movie. Um great guys, thank you so much for joining us, and thank you for all your comments as well. Um, just uh uh reminder as well that of course everything we do here is entirely reliant on you and uh your support. So we're incredibly grateful for the support you give us, um, particularly the support in prayer. We know that lots of you do keep up with the things we're doing and are praying for us on a regular basis and all the projects. That's really helpful for us um and really good to know and really encouragement. Um but we're also thankful for those of you who give. Um and if you are interested in supporting speaklife, you can head to speaklife.org.uk forward slash give. And there are a couple of different ways to give on there. Um it's all kind of laid out for you. And if you do that, uh what's the perks, Glenn?
SPEAKER_01Well, you get onto the Discord server, which is like a Facebook group, but like really kind. Less abusive. Far less abusive. And um yeah, you get access to the team and can ask questions and all that kind of stuff.
SPEAKER_07There's behind there's a few kind of um exclusive content. There is exclusive content. So it's kind of a growing community, so we'd love you to join us there. Um so yeah, if you if you are able to give, we would uh yeah, be incredibly grateful for that.
SPEAKER_01Glenn, anything else to add? I think you've done a tremendous job, Paul Feasy.
SPEAKER_07So do I. Great. Cheers. Well done, you lovely. Uh no, thanks Glenn for all your thoughts, and uh, hopefully we will not go away feeling vexed. No. We will be anti-vex on all of this. Great. Guys, thank you so much for joining us. We will catch you next week.
SPEAKER_04God bless, bye-bye. Well, thanks so much for that chat pool, which I haven't yet listened to, but um I'm sure it's great. I I do normally listen to these episodes before doing these fillers.
SPEAKER_07But uh sometimes you're even there in the room at the time, so it's easier if you were there at the time. Obviously, so it's just another job for you, otherwise, to listen to it before this, having not been there.
SPEAKER_04But I'm sure that what you said was helpful. Fine, you know.
SPEAKER_07Yeah, yeah, well, hopefully. And I mean honestly, I'm enjoying the film sections, even though it's a bit sort of like what we're gonna watch this week, you know, now we've got to watch it, we've got to think of something like to actually serve the back of it. Um, I find it I find it quite good fun actually, thinking about those. And uh I think it's it's something you could do with any show though, isn't it? Like anything you watch has a message in it. Like, I mean, I suppose there's stuff which isn't particularly deep, but any film you watch, any TV series, has a kind of world with values and you know the things that the world thinks is right and wrong within that framework of their universe, you know, whether it's the Marvel comic book universe or you know, whether it's some chick flick or whatever, it could be anything, an action movie. There's always something in there, isn't there, that's like what what is the kind of where's where's the gospel stuff in this? Where's the stuff that's a distortion of the gospel? Um, you know, because they never I mean, even in a uh an explicitly Christian film, you might not get a particularly good portrayal of an explicitly Christian message, I suppose. So you're never going to find a kind of perfect film that makes you go, oh, this is a perfect picture of Christianity. But hopefully we've seen by looking at the last three films that there are echoes of Christianity all through films, whether in good ways or distorted ways.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_07Um, and you can get a lot out of it. Um, and I think that's really interesting. And so actually, you know, I I think often Christians have a tendency to be a bit anti-popular culture and to think about culture um as kind of a thing we need to protect ourselves against. And I think actually engaging with the culture via things like this is quite good. And I I mean I'd have to double check it, but I think I heard so people often say, Oh, you know, you shouldn't watch this or you shouldn't watch that because you know what it says in is it Philippians, you know, whatever is good and whatever is lovely and all those things, you know, think on these things, etc. And people say, Oh, and if you watch this or you watch that, then you're not doing that. Um, you shouldn't be thinking about those kind of popular things. But apparently, when Paul says that, he's actually using a quote from the culture, so it's like me saying, No, I am your father. You know that that is from popular culture from Star Wars. That's kind of what Paul is pulling that phrase from. So Paul himself is engaging with their culture with those phrases. So, you know, I think it's legitimate to do that. I think you can get a lot of stuff out of it. You can probably go a bit too far with it sometimes and go a bit crazy as to what you can pull out, but um, I think in anything there are you know, even if you watch a film and you come away, as I have on occasion, feeling like, oh, that that was the antithesis of of of gospel goodness in there. Yeah, the very fact I can see that is a kind of here's a picture of what brokenness looks like, you know. This movie illustrates that in a great way. What happens when you don't forgive? What happens when, you know, etc. etc., you know, insert thing here.
SPEAKER_04But that's so helpful. Because yeah, because if something is is distorted, you can't help but think of what it what it should be, or yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_07It's the C.S. Lewis crooked line, isn't it? You know, you only know your line is crooked because you know what a straight line is, and so you can watch a film and you can say, ah, that's a bit crooked there. Or as as is often the case with films, actually, there are lots of points where there's straight lines, and then you can see the bits where it diverges and goes off, and you can say, hey, look, there are bits where this is like the Christian story, isn't it? There are good things in here, but we can see where it gets distorted and stuff. So what's good and what's bad? I think it's great to do that with films, with TV, with songs, you know, all kinds of stuff. I think there's a lot of rich stuff in there.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, absolutely. And we we're big Doctor Who fans, aren't we? So uh oh, don't worry, Glenn.
SPEAKER_07Uh people just walking in the middle of our recording.
SPEAKER_04No, no, it's chill. But yeah, we're both big uh Huvians, Doctor Who fans. And and the uh again, you can do this with TV shows, and the Doctor in many ways is a very Christ-like figure. Um, in that there's death and resurrection, often laying down um the doctor lays down his or her life.
SPEAKER_07Stephen Moffat, who was one of the writers for a while, he did Sherlock and Jekyll and Hyde as well as Doctor Who. I think he wrote the Tintin movie as well for Steven Spielberg. Oh yeah, yeah. Um with Joe Cornish as well, I think. Oh right. Right, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, he said something like, you know, what they want you look at what the doctor they gave they wanted a hero and they didn't give him a gun, they didn't give him all these things, they gave him a screwdriver, you know. All these things. Here you have this character who eschews violence. Turning swords into plough shares and kind of thing. There you go. So yeah, I mean, and that that's a good example of of yeah, things you can pull stuff out of. But there were lots of, you know, any show you watch, you're gonna be able to find echoes of the gospel for good and uh for ill.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, and to simply dismiss these shows entirely and and not even engage with them, I think, is to miss the the little gems of God's grace that you can see in them, that even though they're often made by non-Christians, they they can't help but reflect Christ in certain ways.
SPEAKER_07Absolutely, and I mean we've we know about kind of common grace, don't we, that even the non-Christian will will bring out things which are can be godly. Um but also we've talked loads in the last year or year and a half, haven't we, about the sort of Tom Holland stuff with we live in this Christian Christian world where you know the air we breathe is Christian, so it's so unsurprising that we see these things coming out. Why do we think it's you know the the most why do we think it's such a good thing when we see these characters sacrifice themselves for a greater good in a film? It's because it's so in our culture, and that's so in our culture because of Jesus that the powerful would lay themselves down for um those who are weak.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, it wouldn't have been seen as an obvious good thing in the Persian or Assyrian or Greek or Roman empires, Babylonian empires. It wouldn't have been seen as obvious for the strongest to the strongest should lay down life for the for the weakest. Like that would not be seen as a virtue to be kind of upheld, the strong just got stronger and the weak got weaker. It was Christ who taught us that very counter-cultural way and and normalized it in our in in the West today, for sure.
SPEAKER_07Absolutely. So yeah, lots of good stuff there, and I you know, I'll think it as well when I'm listening to songs. Sometimes I'll I'll think about the lyrics. I mean, I a lot of the time I'm not even aware of some of the lyrics and songs I listen to because I'm I'm more approaching it from a musical point of view. But oh we have a we have a musician in here, but you know, sometimes you when you listen to the words, someone you know, someone will say to me, like, oh, the the problem with this song is it's so you know, it's it's not it's not very Christian, they might say. Um and sometimes I and I think, yeah, sometimes it's not Christian, but the point is I can listen to it and I can see it's not Christian. Yeah. I can say, what is the problem with this message in this song? Now it doesn't mean that you know just because the message isn't right, I should never listen to this song. It actually helps it it it helps me see the crooked line in some ways. Um, you know, and there are there are obviously levels of this, you know, there are things that some people are gonna want to listen to or not listen to, and things that'll be helpful for one person and unhelpful for another, and I think that's absolutely fine. You know, some people will not want to touch a particular TV show, and others will be okay with it. And and I think that's just something we have to accept that we have different um, some of us are more sensitive to certain things, we're more triggered by certain things. I mean, a good example would be um my wife and I have really enjoyed the series Suits on Netflix, I think it was. Um, that's the one with Meghan Markle. It is, yeah, yeah, forgotten she was in it. Um but we love that series, you know, we really enjoyed it. Um but one of my other friends, who's a Christian, said, I just can't watch that because he he feels himself drawn into that world of where you know everyone in that world wants to be the big dog. Right. And like they'll they'll betray each other, you know, because they can get the better job and the more money, or all this that. And he says he can feel himself getting pulled into that and being enticed by it, and it just in his headspace doesn't put him in a particularly good space, so he doesn't want to watch it. Whereas for my me, it never crossed my mind that kind of thing, you know, it doesn't it doesn't make me feel think that way at all. So, you know, we obviously have a slightly different approach to it, yeah. Um, but I think that's fine, you know.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, that's fascinating, isn't it? And and often we go to sort of horror films as being we're like, oh, that's the kind of ultimate depraved entertainment. But I'm I'm a bit of a horror fan, obviously, good horror films, not the kind of indulgent depraved ones. Um but I have to say, some of uh I have seen rom-coms with a more toxic message than certain horror films, yeah. And you know, kind of glorifying having an affair and and it kind of dresses it up as the right thing. That's the festival. And you're like that's much more insidious because it's presented as oh, this is really nice and sweet and and good. Oh wait, but it's it's actually a really horrible message that's uh being put across there.
SPEAKER_07Yeah, and and that's a classic thing, and that's been the case in music for a long time, hasn't it? That there was this sort of thing, I guess it was more so maybe during the 70s and 80s, there was this kind of in some circles, there was this very anti-heavy metal type thing, you know, that all heavy metal music is demonic and stuff like that. Um, and of course, there is a lot of that imagery around it, um, but not not every band by uh by a long way, and a lot of what bands were singing about wasn't necessarily anything to do with that. But then you you would listen if you were to go back and listen to something that was in the top ten at the time, it was or or even now, it might sound very kind of harmless candy pop, you know, uh whatever, but the messages within it are all pretty anti-Christian in terms of the way they approach relationships, going out and partying and drinking and you know, all that kind of stuff materialism. Um but it sounds fun, it's got a nice beat, and whereas some people were just like, Oh, but look at those guys with long hair who are growling a bit, you know, that it's evil. Yeah. Um, whereas actually, I think, like you say, sometimes it's the it's the things that get under the radar a bit more that we take, you know, we we just think, oh, this is harmless. Um but also to say like it again, some people's reaction would be like, well, it's all terrible then, we shouldn't have it listened to anything. And I think that's a I don't think that's the right approach. I think we do want to engage with what people are listening to, you know. I mean, why why are certain songs number one? Why is it that this song is listened to so much? What is the message in it? You know, is it just a it's a TikTok thing that's taken off and people like it because of that? Um or or is there something more to it? You know, what are what is it that the kids are listening to, you know, my children are listening to, what are the messages they're consuming through that? You know, that we all did, and I'm sure many of us as adults have gone back and listened to things as we listen to as kids and gone, can't believe my parents let me listen to that because there's stuff in there that as a child you don't realise what is being talked about. Yeah, but as an adult you do. Um but I think it's healthy for us as Christians to actually engage with those things, sift them, weigh them, um, and people will come down, like I say, at different points on it. Um but I I I think there's a lot we can take from those things, and I think it helps us engage with people as well.
SPEAKER_04You know, I think that's the first serious conversation we've had on this.
SPEAKER_07It's a bit worrying, isn't it? We're gonna get complaints now.
SPEAKER_04We should probably wrap it up. But that really helpful, Paul, and I I think it's helpful for people to kind of see some of the the tools that you guys are using when you're talking about films on the Speakeasy, so that you can then go and do this yourself. Do do film theology yourself with your friends after watching a film in the cinema with your non-Christian friends talk about well, why was that moment so powerful? And and this can lead to conversations about faith. So um thanks, Paul. And uh thanks, Tom. We'll see you guys next week. Yeah, take care. You'll hear us. Absolutely. And do write in. Yes. God bless. Bye. Bye.