Imagine trading a predictable career in finance for the unpredictable world of entrepreneurship in the middle of a pandemic. That's exactly what our guest, Kevin Tang, the go-getter behind the organic iced tea brand, Kaytea , did. An unforeseen visa complication coupled with the global lockdown propelled him to chase his dream, resulting in a thrilling journey from brewing tea in his kitchen to creating a website to test the market waters. Kevin's story is a testament to the power of resilience and perseverance.
Tune in as Kevin takes us along the road less travelled, narrating the realities of launching a product. The process was far from easy - from the intricacies of recipe development, the gruelling task of tracking website clicks, to the relentless search for manufacturing partners. However, every challenge faced was a lesson learned, and every hurdle crossed further deepened his wisdom. Particularly interesting is his emphasis on testing consumer interest, the challenges and rewards in sourcing raw materials, and the experience with contract packers.
The final part of our conversation with Kevin revolves around the complex facets of product distribution, branding, sales strategies, and staffing in a growing business. He stresses on the importance of understanding the buyer's language, the power of a well-chosen product name, and the art of finding product-market fit. Moreover, he candidly shares his trials with hiring and the books that helped him navigate the entrepreneurial landscape. Prepare to be inspired and informed by Kevin's fascinating journey and entrepreneurial acumen.
HOW BRANDS GROW - BYRON SHARP
LEAN START-UP - Eric Reiss
Imagine trading a predictable career in finance for the unpredictable world of entrepreneurship in the middle of a pandemic. That's exactly what our guest, Kevin Tang, the go-getter behind the organic iced tea brand, Kaytea , did. An unforeseen visa complication coupled with the global lockdown propelled him to chase his dream, resulting in a thrilling journey from brewing tea in his kitchen to creating a website to test the market waters. Kevin's story is a testament to the power of resilience and perseverance.
Tune in as Kevin takes us along the road less travelled, narrating the realities of launching a product. The process was far from easy - from the intricacies of recipe development, the gruelling task of tracking website clicks, to the relentless search for manufacturing partners. However, every challenge faced was a lesson learned, and every hurdle crossed further deepened his wisdom. Particularly interesting is his emphasis on testing consumer interest, the challenges and rewards in sourcing raw materials, and the experience with contract packers.
The final part of our conversation with Kevin revolves around the complex facets of product distribution, branding, sales strategies, and staffing in a growing business. He stresses on the importance of understanding the buyer's language, the power of a well-chosen product name, and the art of finding product-market fit. Moreover, he candidly shares his trials with hiring and the books that helped him navigate the entrepreneurial landscape. Prepare to be inspired and informed by Kevin's fascinating journey and entrepreneurial acumen.
HOW BRANDS GROW - BYRON SHARP
LEAN START-UP - Eric Reiss
3, 2, 1, 0, ever. And lift off, lift off, lift off. Welcome to the recipe for greatness podcast. There we have Kevin Tang, founder of KT, the organic ice scene brand, creating cold brew, ice tea, loose leaf and matcha blends. Kevin's previous background was in finance before leaving his job in launching KT in June 2020, right at the start of the pandemic. Kevin, welcome to the podcast. Thank you so much for having me, jake. I wanted to jump and go back to the early years of Kevin and understand where the idea of entrepreneurship started to come in. Was it something in your childhood or was it your time at university? When did you start to think maybe the long term career path wasn't for you and entrepreneurship was that path?
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely. I think the kind of idea of entrepreneurship really came to be in by high school years in Canada actually. So I was kind of like you know, in my school specifically that we had a lot of different kind of electives. We called it back to Canada. So we have, for example, woodworking, automobiles, photography, even like cooking, for example.
Speaker 1:So the idea is that you already have to go through the traditional kind of university and kind of go into trade and a bunch of other stuff as well. And so I've always kind of had like bringing an idea into fruition and slowly nurturing and kind of expanding it. It's almost like having your own kind of little child or baby and then grow with it right. So that's something I've always been interested in doing, just having something of my own. And when I was in, I guess, high school I took a few courses. Not that the courses helped at all, but I think just the idea of kind of like being able to create something out of an idea, it really really inspired me. And I've been kind of doing side hustles here and there throughout my high school and university careers and one day I was just delighted to kind of kick off my own thing.
Speaker 2:So yeah, you did go to university, though, and you did then get a job in finance. So what point was it during that time where because I mean, you were doing quite a successful career in finance as well so what did you decide? Right now is time to maybe take that step. How did you think about them? How did sort of the idea sort of start bubbling in the background?
Speaker 1:Yeah. So the real answer is it actually didn't really come from a huge need or anything. So I did finance because I needed a visa to stay in the country. So at the time I made a lot of friends through uni. I really wanted to stay in the country and finance jobs were only one of the few jobs that I sponsored a visa for Canadians and international students. So I decided to do that just to stay in the country realized it wasn't really for me. I was actually about to jump into a career in also finance, but in kind of the investment side, on the growth equity side, to work with more interesting startups and scaling businesses.
Speaker 1:But COVID hit again. The visa didn't work out and there was an opportunity to kind of like some of my own things. So I've always had an idea for kind of like tea right, that's kind of brewing the background part in the fund and it's something that I've always wanted to do. And when I guess, like COVID hit, I actually didn't have anything to do. So I decided to explore that idea a bit more further a lot of sort of desktop research and stuff like that. So, and during the first few months I actually just built a website and try to see if there's a demand, and I launched a business with just a website that I designed over the weekend, so that was when we launched theoretically, but actually the business didn't really launch until 2021.
Speaker 2:So that's incredible. So I thought you had this idea sort of that was being like percolating for long term prior to COVID, but it was actually because you were forced to that break. You then thought, right, well, I'm just not going to sit here, I'm going to now explore an opportunity. So I think how long did it take you to just sort of have the initial idea and lock down and then actually start putting the motions into? Maybe just get a website open, or how did you first like test the idea to see if there was actually something there?
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely so. It's about six months so when I think it was January, when, like you know, stuff was happening in in other parts of the world it wasn't really like to massively the UK yet right. So in January, about six months, that's when I started exploring the idea. I didn't I wasn't actually sure I was going to start a business, but I was exploring the idea and prior to that I've always had had kind of like you know, I always joked about starting it but I wasn't actually sure if I wanted to do.
Speaker 1:I knew I knew I wanted to do something eventually, but I just wasn't really sure if that was the right time. And also I wasn't really sure if a consumer consumer goods or food and vegetables the right kind of industry for me to go into. But because I kind of grew up drinking tea and iced tea and I really, really loved what I was building and I guess a part of that was because a lot of my friends and colleagues at the time really loved what I was brewing and that's when I decided, okay, maybe I could explore this a bit further and see, see if there's an opportunity here. So that's kind of how we started, really, yeah.
Speaker 2:So I'm going to sort of go off the schedule a bit and jump really far forward. So obviously now we have where Katie is now and I guess the pandemic obviously was a horrible thing, that happened to everyone. But it kind of forced you into a position where you had to make a choice. Now, looking back in hindsight, are you really glad that it happened. You actually went on that journey. Or you've been like, oh, I could have been doing this in finance, or how do you think about that sort of time?
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely no regret whatsoever. I really I mean, to be honest, the timing could have been a little bit better, but you know, but it is a little bit of a blessing and disguise, I believe, because because of you know, the lockdown and everything, I had a lot of chance to kind of reflect and think about the business and was able to make a lot of like big and small mistakes at a small scale. And they're big mistakes but because we're so small at time that it didn't really impact the business, whereas if I started the business today and had made those mistakes when the stakes are higher or when because we're going as the market kind of, you know, if we could go kind of boom, you know, if I had made those mistakes today, then you know it could be quite detrimental. So it was a blessing, disguise, because I had a lot of time to learn and dab and get a good understanding of the industry, while I didn't really have much going on in the background.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and how did you go about launching the product? So do we just like making this a home and just getting a little jazz and giving it to people Like what was the process you took?
Speaker 1:Was it straight to like a manufacturing or yeah, absolutely so before I had the idea of the business I was brewing the, brewing my own blends like for fun, just for because I guess you know, in North America and Asia iced tea and other sort of like tea, latte stuff are quite common and I just really couldn't find out alternatives when I, when I moved to London about 10 years ago and I really just wanted to create something for myself, right, and so the whole kind of recipe development process kind of created just in my own kitchen really, and that was just throughout the years I lived in London, it wasn't really nothing to do with business and and as this got more serious and then I kind of like started networking. I think my first bread and jam event was like literally the only one camera. It was quite a while ago. Is this like event for networking for food and food and beverage entrepreneurs? And I started asking people how they've done it.
Speaker 1:And then I kind of ended up going to kind of food scientists to kind of refine the recipe to make it shelf stable, commercially viable and all that stuff. So it took quite a bit of time to just get the products ready and I guess I guess, yeah, three to six months, and a lot of that was pretty much back and forth through posts because we couldn't meet them in person, right. So so so yeah, that was that was the initial stage, and then actually finding the manufacturing partners and kind of building the brand took a little bit even longer. So when we launched the website it was just pretty much bare-bone, just like kind of like non-branded products, just to see if there's any demand for it, and then slowly we kind of moved the brand after we actually launched the website. So yeah, it was kind of an interesting journey.
Speaker 2:So were people able to buy the products on the website? Or was it more just testing, to see if people were actually going there clicking buy and you sort of saying oh sorry, we're out of stock or something, or yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 1:So the first part was actually exactly that. So I just wanted to see if, like I was just tracking the clicks to see if you know people were, you know interested in this stuff at all.
Speaker 1:And that was a kind of a hack I learned from white combinator, so a lot of my friends who weren't type business. That was a quick, really interesting hack Before you even develop a product, just build the site and see if it works. And people would actually click on the product pages and buy. And that's what I did. And actually, you know, I was able to kind of get some really, really not like it wasn't really commercially viable samples, which is like kind of like handmade products from finding bashers or like basically like production samples made and then it was wasn't really branded, which is kind of like you know, stuff of a label on it and then just to see if people would buy it. And then, yeah, we're selling those at one point as well. But then, slowly as they might actually kind of went a bit higher, we actually did decide to go contract manufacturing, so just like to go through a proper contract packers to do it for us.
Speaker 2:That's super interesting. Yeah, it's such like it's something that's well known but not many people do sell out. You know I want to sell a product but you can literally create a website for a fraction of the cost rather than having other products and everything. So I want to dig into the manufacturing journey because that's something a lot of people struggle with and I know well. Maybe there are a few lessons that you had along your journey and finding a manufacturing partner and you can talk us through some of the lessons, maybe the do's and don'ts that you kind of got from your journey.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely so. It's probably the hardest part of the journey in the beginning and the funny thing about so we're not in cans, right, but we had quite a lot of formats when we first started. But you know we will have it worked with six or seven partners in the last two and a half years, one which we, one which we now use pretty regularly. But there is a lot of kind of small players in the UK and a lot of big players. There's nothing in the middle, right. So it was really hard for us to find someone who can work with us on a decent scale. And the big guys, you know, they work with the likes of multinational companies, so they're quite busy as well and we don't have nearly enough the production volume to meet their demand, meet their production minimum, minimum order quantity, they call it. So we had to work with a lot of small suppliers and don't want to scare anyone off, but we first started there were two or three companies that were kind of like cowboy outfits, so if you know what I mean. So they really just take the money and, kind of like, run off. I'm not even kidding.
Speaker 1:One of them, I believe, were, I think, sued and went into administration. Apparently one of the directors bought a Ferrari and just left the companies of all. That it's really really scary. I actually I can't say that that's for true. I just heard a rumor. But when they did happen to us, unfortunately, where money was paid and production was not made, so they took the money and didn't actually produce the products.
Speaker 1:So huge learning curves there. And the manufacturing contract does protect you to some extent but you still have to go to the legal process of actually pursuing that. So at the time it didn't really worth it. It didn't look like it was going to worth it for us. And but there was one partner who who actually you know did I don't think they were intentionally lost our sort of raw materials which we did have to kind of pursue legal action.
Speaker 1:So there's been a lot of learning curves. I, you know. I don't think you know I figured out completely just yet. I think that it's a learning curve, but I think the best way to do it is you got to trust people with your gut when you have the first conversation. If they feel like you know they care about your business and they feel like they're, they're good people, then you know that gives you an indication. I should have trust in my gut when I first met those smaller manufacturers and my gut was telling me no, but I was just kind of keen to move this forward. I decided to go through it and I had actually lost quite a few tens of thousands of pounds actually in manufacturing. So I had a pretty bad experience in that part, I have to say, and hopefully other people will kind of have better experiences when they start.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's definitely one of those examples where everyone's keen to go fast, fast, but you know, sometimes slower, better relationships is the way to go. So I guess you mentioned there just trust in your gut. Is there anything else you'd recommend for people who may be having conversations with manufacturers, anything they can test with them first without having to put up. So you know, because you mentioned there are quite a common story is like, well, yeah, we can do something, that you have to send us thousands of pounds and then we'll consider it, sort of thing. Is there anything you'd recommend a different approach or how you can feel out these manufacturers?
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely. I think the first thing that I should have done was to speak to more people in the industry. I think I could avoid it that much, I think, by speaking to people, which is what I do now with any new supply. I try to find out who they work with and try to speak with them. Obviously there's a bit of conflict of interest if you know you're all producing the same product or similar type of products. But I think once you be nice enough to a lot of people, they will tell you, I guess, their experiences.
Speaker 1:And then, secondly, I think you know you can kind of like try to do site visits right. So you know I did go to some of them and some of them, you know, just did not look like they was very well run. So I think by doing site visits it really helps to kind of give you a good idea of whether they're kind of like good at their jobs or not and just the whole communication process. So actually don't be fooled by communication. Some people have a really good at pulling you in the beginning stage, but once you put the money in they're not right. And try your best to kind of do kind of deposits and perform us but not perform my invoices as possible. It's a little bit hard if you're small because they want to protect them from credit risk themselves. But I think if you could try to do like a 50% upfront or 20% deposit and then the rest a cash on delivery, things like that, at least for the first one, so you have a little bit of protection on kind of like you know the situation.
Speaker 2:And I'll move on now to branding. I'm curious about how you approach your branding process, because we spoke to Camilla from Root Health the other week and she sort of said the start she thought her product could just speak for itself, but then she realized that they needed to make people feel something can have the drive to wanting to use their product. So what was your branding process like and what kind of thought process did you go through?
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely so I think. I think I'm probably not the best person to talk about branding. It's something that I've kind of struggled with to understand the whole kind of creative process. I think my brain is more geared towards kind of the analytics and, you know, the commercial side of the thing I really enjoy kind of learning about it. I guess from my limited experience I can't really comment much, but I think I do have now the advisors who are kind of like ex-diagio and really really big brand directors of like you know, really big brands and they kind of help me try to develop identity.
Speaker 1:So in the beginning it was really just my ex-flatmate who developed the whole branding. She's a university of Arts London graduate and have been doing a lot of freelance work illustration, branding and so forth so she actually did the whole brand and there was a few iterations but I think actually she did the branding up to today. We're doing kind of a refresh in the next couple of months but the whole idea was the kind of like just basically we thought about who my customers be and just kind of the brand and the way we want to portray yourself, and that's the kind of the whole process really was very, very simple. I do think that in the initial stages, like it's super important to have a good brand, but you know it's for me it's an evolving piece, so don't have to spend, like you know, 20k on branding agency just to just before you had a product right. So I think it's good to have a kind of a minimal viable product and then kind of see how it goes and maybe slowly devolve your brand.
Speaker 2:But you know, branding experts might say otherwise, so yeah, yeah, I was just about to say as well, so many. Because every business I've started, I've always like come across an agency and I've loved their work and I've gone, I love to work with you. Like I was like, oh, we start about 20,000 pounds and then you suddenly find someone like how lucky is your flatmate is a freelancer and produced an incredible brand, like that brand is great work and it's really incredible. And I've similarly find sometimes you just can go for the less refined option and it produces just as good a result. So, yeah, it's definitely something to think about. So I want to now move on to the sales part. And for you, what sort of in the past sort of, I guess, two, three years, if you could look back what's been the biggest turning point for driving sales? Is there a moment you can look on and think, oh, that was when we really started to. You know, get that growth, growth start.
Speaker 1:So for us it's a slight different because we launched a almost like a food to go product. During the time, one food to go didn't exist, so the macro economic environment really did affect our kind of growth for a bit. So I think we really started properly growing, probably last year, in 2022. So, but before that we had a bunch of different products that we were trying and actually now no longer exists, right. So I'm a huge fan of the kind of the lean startup kind of like, kind of like mentality of like just trying to get something out of it, lean and see if it works and fail fast. And that's exactly what we've done.
Speaker 1:And I think getting product market fit last year with the cans, the ice teas in a more convenient and more mainstream flavor profile really helped us.
Speaker 1:I think, you know, not only were we getting approached by kind of international importers, exporters, importers and just do kind of like seeing us on the website or trade press, but also the local kind of buyers were also more open to the idea of organic over ice tea.
Speaker 1:So it was a lot of knocking on doors in the beginning and a lot of kind of like, you know, just trying to present our products in any way we can. We sponsored quite a lot of like consumer events, even parties, you know, with the creatives. You know when the creative class have a like a party, we try to sponsor those events. We did stuff for like fashion week and so getting that visibility I think really helped us to kind of get some even both trade price, trade, trade buyers and also consumers to know about a brand. And I think once we launched the product market fit and then as we kind of got our first anchor listing first, first anchor listing was a band co actually, so they're like online grocery and once we've successfully used that as a case study, more and more retailers and buyers were keen to kind of explore as a listing. And of course, once you get someone like W Smith and things get a little bit more serious, so yeah, and you mentioned that, the when you moved to cans.
Speaker 2:I remember in your story where you start off in glass, but then the change to cans was also a bit of a change. Why is that so important? Just being kind of terms of actually what you're, I guess, packing in.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so I think a lot of people were worried about glass to some extent and that is heavy, this breakage, and expensive as well, and it's very environmental on friendly in the terms of the carbon footprint that it costs because so heavy, right, and it's not as recyclable as cans.
Speaker 1:And but that's not really the main reason. That main reason was actually we changed the flavor, so they were completely new flavors that were launched in the cans, so our first flavor profiles were just a little bit too niche. It really worked well in very small demographics, but they just didn't really appeal to kind of like a lot of the mass consumers, right, so we're a food to go product, so people really don't have a much time to think about the purchase decision. Make split two seconds, right, so we're even left. So having kind of really weird names like herbal passion or paradise green, which doesn't tell you anything about the flavors of the products, was really hard to, was really hard. So we decided to launch kind of flavors and also change the names of the products to something a bit more easier to understand, to appeal a broader base, and that's really helped us to gain the attention of both consumers and buyers.
Speaker 2:So yeah, that's super interesting. So I found your product in saints breeze. How did, how did the whole thing interesting happen? Because I've found it really interesting that you know, everyone sort of goes out to saints breeze like I want to go in and maybe, if they don't get that listing or whatever, they try something else. But there was, you know, you squad the unique opportunity to go sort of within saints breeze. How did that conversation evolve and how did it come around?
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely. So. We actually it was quite all around. So we met a different category buyer from St Spurys who then was who was advocate of the product, so that kind of like got talked about about, talked about a bit within the buying team, not necessarily my category, but like it's kind of got. You know, someone mentioned it and then kind of spread the word a little bit.
Speaker 1:And then I actually met the sort of the distributors who supply into St Spurys at a trade show and then they were quite keen. There was an opportunity kind of within the, the, I guess, the sushi deli areas, right. So that kind of that conversation kind of sparked a little bit further. And then, and then one day they just like, like we're looking for something a bit different. And and then, yes, we launched, we pretty much the conversation was pretty it kind of went from all over the place, but you know, there was opportunity and I guess we were the right fit for for the products of that time and then we just seized the opportunity. So it was a, yeah, very fortunate I guess.
Speaker 2:How's your experience been with talking to buyers? I was reading a piece for you talking about your journey, saying at the very start you know it's very hard to not get knocked by the sort of responses saying no, but you just got to keep going, keep going. So I guess what was that time like for you? And then what have you learned about creating successful approach and pitch to these buyers to, you know, get them more welcoming to sort of your pitch, I guess yeah, yeah, I think I think you got.
Speaker 1:I think there's a difference between speaking to kind of like independent buyers, you know, like Dali's and kind of coffee shops, versus a, a supermarket buyer, right, I think the language is different. Right, the independent they care about provenance and kind of your flavor and your branding and you know that stuff and that's really really different. So I started off kind of like just going to, you know, and you know we had nothing to do during during lockdown, so I was kind of going around you know stores as a key key worker, right, so I was supplying, I was delivering stuff myself. Basically I was delivering, like delivering all the drinks myself across London. They're probably transport, bear in mind, because I don't have a car, so so. So so you know, I got to speak to a lot of kind of buyers in that way and then you know you get to kind of learn how to speak to different types of independent buyers. And then the corporate buyer is I think it's a little bit different because they got to speak the language and they care about kind of whatever they care about, right, so, whether that's margins, promotions, what side of the category is how you're going to build the category? What is the incrementality of the category? How do you build you know, all that stuff.
Speaker 1:So I think when we, when I started to learn about this through, you know, just events and networking and also like workshops from BeyondFoodies, brennan Jam and all these guys, I started to kind of speak the language, and all my pitch decks are kind of, like you know, presented in a way that's you know, very extent and also desirable for, for, for, for their, for them, right. So, and then that's when we started getting conversations and as we kind of grow, as we get, build case studies across different retailers, and then now the conversation is, now we actually get replies, right. So before it was just a matter of like, no replies, right, they just wouldn't respond to, like ridiculous emails. But and but now, though you know we're speaking the language and also, you know, presenting in a different way with case studies, I think they're more open to at least having a conversation or at least saying no. So, yeah, that's, I guess that's a long way the way of saying how I've done it.
Speaker 2:That is super interesting. Like you say, it's just it's a ratio and just revolving the process and you keep going and I wanted to jump on now. So you mentioned sort of when you changing the name to the products to make the most mainstream. And I was looking on Amazon and some of the products are sort of phrase, like sleeping beauty, and I was curious about those. Are intentional name changes to drive sales, to sort of get people attracted to you know, see those and get actually attracted to exploring and purchasing?
Speaker 1:Yeah, for that product specifically, I think you know having a creative name like that, you know you're essentially kind of seeing those people that say sleeping teeth, right.
Speaker 1:So that ideal that was to kind of like bring, exactly like you said, drive eyeballs to the product. But actually the whole product range we're kind of slowly phasing out. So we found that, you know, as we're getting bigger and bigger with the ice, some of the initial products that we launched are no longer relevant to the brand and as we're doing the next phase of branding more of a refresh or update we're looking at, we're looking at the winning skews and really rationalizing the ones that aren't really being well with the brand and also the ones that are actually driving much of the volume to justify the production. So it's been a strategic work done at the moment currently actually to basically making our brand a little bit more consistent across different categories, and it's a big piece of work that I've been trying to do for the last couple months and it's kind of got a chance to. So hopefully we'll be completed by next year.
Speaker 2:That's super interesting. I guess it's like the products they got you to where you needed to go on. Always the products are going to take you to that next phase. And one thing I found really interesting about your journey, and something I've experienced as well, was that staffing was one of the biggest issues you found in your process of sort of growing the business. What were some of the biggest mistakes you made in hiring? And I guess if you had your time again, what would you do differently in that process?
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's almost the old adage. I like hire slow, fire fast. So it's a really interesting one. I think I'm still learning in that respect.
Speaker 1:So I spoke to a lot of other founders who always talk about team is the most important thing you got to have. Like you know, you got to hire people that are smarter than you. You know, like you know, very, very good advice. But I think, depending on, like, how you're funded as a business, right. So if you're a bootstrap business or a or VC backed business, right, you have very different options, right. So we're not necessarily bootstrapped, but we didn't receive, like you know, hundreds of 1000 pounds of funding, so we're slightly kind of like a, I guess I think you can kind of say it. We're kind of a bootstrap company, right, so we can just go out to the market and try to hire the best you know, the account managers or marketing directors, right, and so I think, and the thing is, as a sole founder, whereas as founder to a business in the new industry, you don't necessarily have the expertise to teach whoever you hire the skillset that they actually need to do the job.
Speaker 1:So if you hire a graduate, sometimes they might be asking questions that you don't know what to do right. So sometimes you're kind of at a deadlock. So that was the problem that I had. I hired a lot of young graduates who were really hungry but just didn't have the experience and I wasn't able to provide them the experience to do their jobs, so it just didn't really feel like it was a right fit for the business at the time. So that was kind of the biggest learning course I had.
Speaker 1:But then we're really at a stage to sort of hire kind of very experienced people who have industry experience right. So the solution I found was to work with kind of contractors and freelancers and potentially even agencies to fill that gap in the meantime until you reach that stage where you're able to hire a really, really great team. And we've been following that for the last couple months and it's been working quite well. I know a lot of other businesses who use service, like YoungFoodies, and heard how to get feedback. So it's something that we can do explore, ask we grow as well and hopefully one day we can build a great team and we kind of expand as a brand.
Speaker 2:I want to move on now to a quick fire round, and I was wondering if there's any books that you'd recommend to any founders in this space, or anything that you've read that stand out or something that you find referencing often to people about potential things to read or look at.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So. I think this is a book by a guy named Yen Sharp, maybe how brands grow. I think it's something with I feel like it's name-athlete, I think it's Sharp, but how brands grow. And it's a book about basically how consumer goods businesses grow and it's based on kind of like actual studies. I've heard different sort of opinions of the book, but personally I found a really interesting read, at least for someone who's coming to the industry fresh.
Speaker 1:And then there's another book called Getting Things Done. I think it's basically a book about productivity. I kind of follow a lot of the kind of the tactics like inbox zero and like you know all that stuff. I found that really, really helpful. And there's another book about kind of the startup I think it might be called the startup actually. So I read it quite a while ago just out of interest before I started the business. But I kind of follow that kind of ideology for a while. Basically, you know, fail fast and try to learn as quickly as possible and move on, and yeah. So these are some of the three books that I really enjoyed.
Speaker 2:And I've got Howl Brands Grow. Is it by Byron Sharp?
Speaker 1:Sorry, Byron Sharp, that's correct, Byron Sharp. That's good.
Speaker 2:that's good, I'll have things for those who are going to shine on it. So one final question is right now. You know, looking at the industry, looking at your business, what do you see as the biggest potential risks to your business overall?
Speaker 1:I think I mean, obviously there's so many back-to-back factors, right, but I think the biggest risk is probably I guess it's still quite macro, right. So there's so many sort of factors that you can control in terms of supply chain and I think, with everything that's happening, you know we see a lot of movement, so much moving the last two years, just on the supply chain of things, and I think you know, I think being able to have a good relationship with our suppliers is really really key and thankfully, we found someone who is really really helpful in the last year and they've been able to meet our demand and also grow the business with us. So I think you know that definitely is integral to a manufacturing business and I think you know, having a very, very good relationship where you can just pick up the phone and call them on a Thursday night, it's super, super, super important. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Well, that seems perfect place to wrap it into, and I wanna Jeff one where can people find AC? Yes, they were looking to buy it wherever they go.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So we're in across 160 Sainsbury's across, I think, all the way from the South to Aberdeen and Wales. We're in the sushi counter sections and also a few ones in London in M&S. Also we're on Averton Co. We're on Zafi Rapid Illuminat platform we're just launching to WS Smith Airports across London and Manchester, and also Rachel at Spinney's in the UAE, if you ever are in Dubai.
Speaker 2:So Amazing, awesome. Well, thanks so much for coming on and showing your joint. It's been super interesting, especially to hear that sort of the UK been locked down and where you've grown to now, so it's really impressive. So thanks so much for coming on and I really appreciate your time.
Speaker 1:Thank you, Jay. Thanks for having me Appreciate it.
Speaker 2:As always, guys, thank you so much for listening, really appreciate the support and if you guys like it and you're enjoying what you're listening to, please like and subscribe, and Friar Review would really appreciate it Again. We'll be back doing this weekly and, yeah, if you want to know more about starting a food business, head to wwwjaygreenwoodcom. But, guys, as always, thank you and be great.