Poker Lessons, Pasta Vision, And Patient Growth : Andrew Macleod of Emilia’s Crafted Pasta

We explore how poker shaped Andrew Macleod's thinking and how those mental models helped him build Emilia’s Crafted Pasta into a debt-free, multi-site brand. From scouting Italy to opening under budget and growing slow, we show how to balance soul with margins.

• Poker as a mirror of risk and behaviour
• Bootstrapping events and earning trust without capital
• Finding the pasta gap and validating with travel and craft
• Raising seed from relationships built on delivery and discipline
• Securing a first site through persistence and landlord alignment
• Opening lean, surviving the quiet months, building word of mouth
• Frameworks for skill acquisition and early career risk-taking
• Balancing hospitality warmth with unit economics
• Cross-functional accountability and consequence visibility
• Choosing independence, optionality, and long-term brand depth

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Chapters

• 0:00 Opening And Guest Intro
• 0:45 Poker Origins And Early Hustles
• 3:30 Risk, Personality, And Poker Mental Models
• 6:30 From Hosting Games To High-Net-Worth Coaching
• 9:50 Bootstrapping Events With No Money
• 12:20 Spotting The Pasta Gap In The Market
• 15:30 Researching Italy And Craft
• 18:30 Raising Seed Capital Through Trust
• 21:00 Skill Acquisition And Early Risk-Taking
• 25:00 Finding The First Site At St Katharine Docks
• 30:00 Opening Under Budget And The Brutal First Months
• 34:30 Turning Skepticism Into Opportunity
• 38:00 Balancing Soul With Unit Economics

Transcript

Andrew Macleod: 0:00

Three, two, one, four, and let's start. Let's start.

Jay Greenwood: 0:09

Hello, and welcome to another episode of Director Greeners. I'm here to check in with an old podcast that's been 200 and some of the best food drink brands in the KTLs for their business. Today's guest is Andrew McLeod, founder of Emilia's Crafted Pasta, a London-based restaurant group known for serving 100% fresh handmade pasta inspired by Italy's Amelia Romana Region, a former math student and poker entrepreneur, and who launched Emilia in 2016 and has grown into a multi-site, debt-free operation built on craft, discipline, and long-term thinking. And welcome to the podcast.

Andrew Macleod: 0:42

Thank you, Jay. That was a lovely introduction.

Jay Greenwood: 0:45

So uh I want to begin uh sort of maybe a younger part of your journey about uh poker and events. And I know that poker's made a big part of your life, but I'm curious around any specific mental models or behaviors from poker that has maybe helped you uh thinking about frameworks and decision makings.

Andrew Macleod: 1:07

Yeah, I mean it's a good question. Maybe I'll take you back um a tiny bit before I answer that question, just to um introduce sort of where poker came from in my life. But when I was about 15 or 16, I was like many students um at the time, um, not sure what to spend my summer holidays on. And that was sort of when the internet was just you know in full swing. And because I love maths, I was quite good at maths and numbers, um, I bumped into it online and I started playing with a fake ID, um, which my friend photoshopped for me. And that's how I used to spend my my summers when I was 15, 16, 17. Um, and then sort of around that time, this big poker boom happened where there was a an accountant in um from Tennessee in the US who won the biggest poker tournament um in the world. And I think it was about five to ten million dollars in cash he won from just a $30 investment or something like that. Um, and and so when that happened, I a lot of my friends started saying, Oh, let's do private poker games, let's do poker events, stuff like that. And that was when I had my first sort of business idea, and I launched it when I was 17 years old, and it was to run private, um, corporate, and high-stakes poker games in and around London. Um, so we'd bring all the equipment, we'd bring the staffing. Um, I also learned to train as a croupier through YouTube, so I became a uh professional croupier as well. And so I used to host these poker events where I met these incredible people, um whom some of whom later ended up actually backing um Emilia's in its very early stages. Um and and so yeah, that's how I how I got into poker. And what I learned from poker over those years um was that poker is um for me, it refle how you play poker reflects how you live your life. Um now, what does that mean? I'd say you may notice your friends, let's say somebody is slightly risk-averse, somebody takes more calculated risks, or somebody is more emotional and takes very um, let's say, irrational risks, or or very, let's say, gambling type risks. And I'd say how somebody lives, what I learned over the years was how somebody lived their life was often like a hundred percent reflective of how they played poker when they play with their friends or family or in a casino. Um, and and that that was really fascinating to me. I was like a game that almost reflects your soul was was very, very interesting. So I I started, um, like I said, I continued playing. I became um semi-professional when I was um at university um and I did fairly well. I paid most of my university off with poker. Um and uh yeah, I used to host these these uh these private poker games, um, which was very fascinating. And and then later on, I also used to be a poker coach uh for many high net worths, um, and funnily enough, um for some of their children, um, because you know that there were certain individuals who were very successful, and I had one in particular who was, I won't name him, but he was a very well-known fund manager in the city. Um, and he actually hired me to teach his kids, who I believe were 12 and 13 at the time, because he wanted them to understand risk and money management. Um, and they actually had a poker game with their classmates, and he's like, I need my kids to win this game. And so they used to have prizes where only the person who won the game would get, I don't know, like I was never involved in them, but I think he mentioned it was something like a either a toy or a bike or something. So he wanted to create amongst his children this understanding of money management, risk management, um, and also I think probably incentive-driven behaviors.

Jay Greenwood: 5:07

Um digging into that, I want to sort of like because I didn't realize it was a high-stakes poker, the sort of the games you set up. So some of them, yeah, some of them are. So I'm thinking creating a poker sort of game is one thing. We can all sort of get some friends together to do it, but to create an environment, a situation to bring people of that caliber into one place to want to play and trust you as the organizer, how did you create an event like that? How did you create the situation to get these people interested in coming to play these games? And what what's how did you approach basically getting those customers to you?

Andrew Macleod: 5:40

Yeah, so fortunately or unfortunately, I actually had no money at the time. So I think I had a couple of hundred quid to my name, um, but I had a a real sort of strong work ethic from what I remember. I was prepared to from the minute I woke up to the minute I went to sleep to work, whether that was learning poker, whether that was doing math stuff, playing chess, or doing other bits and pieces. And I I remember um precisely how I set it up. It was I took, I remember, I learned how to do basic programming, and they and they used to have similar sites like Wix, um, where you could sort of have guides for creating websites. So they weren't as developed back then. You still needed some basic programming knowledge. And I I believe, I think it was about under 100 pounds. I created a website where I was just like, you know, just you know, if you want a poker dealer for hire, if you want a corporate poker event, if you want to play poker with your friends at home, um, please get in touch with us. Um it was a couple of page website. Um and and and yeah, and I think that was one of my early sort of lessons was that you can do anything with not much. You've just got to have the persistence and and you know the willingness and and the and the the grit and the work ethic. And within a couple of weeks, we had a couple of inquiries. Um and one of them was actually uh an office game um in in Green Park, um, just around the corner from the Brits Hotel. Um and yeah, so and so we used to host, they used to have an event where they wanted their clients to come and socialize after work. And so, yeah, so that that's how we started. We did small events like that, um, where we would host um usually between sort of 10 and 50 people, um, with some of the groups we'd teach them to play poker, with other groups we'd more just manage it. And we it was always run as an event management company. We never wanted to take rake or get into that world of licensing.

Jay Greenwood: 7:40

And uh I think people listening to this who maybe maybe if they hadn't heard the introduction and knew nothing about you, they'd be thinking, where's this story going next? And then we're going to go on to Pasta. And let's how did that sort of from this sort of previous stories we were talking about lead to Pasta and basically get to the point where you thought, maybe a pasta restaurant is what I want to do?

Andrew Macleod: 8:06

Yeah. Yeah, so so I had this thing throughout university where you you know I kind of knew this was a great side hustle and I loved doing it, but I kind of knew it wasn't going to be what I do for the rest of my life. Um, and yeah, so as I was in my last couple of years of uni, I started working on other ideas that I was that I thought could be interesting. And pasta it was something that I'd loved throughout my whole life, was always very particular about. And as we went through uni, I was um we used to eat a lot of pasta because I used to live in halls. And I also used to remember that we used to, when we used to go out, um, and back then it was sort of you go as a student to Turtle Bay or to Ask or to Zizy's. Um, I used to remember sort of going into the Italian ones and thinking, why is this so crap? You know, it costs not that cheap. I mean, it's not expensive, but why does this not represent what I have when I've been to Italy? Um, and and that's where it started. And then I started researching it. I traveled to Italy a lot. I would speak to anybody who would share their knowledge or you know, their wisdom on pasta suppliers, Italian food, Italian culture. And I couch surfed my way around Italy, staying with locals, most of whom who didn't speak any English, and I don't speak Italian. Um, and I learned so much. And what those travels sort of showed me by the end of it was that um actually I felt that I could create really good fresh pasta, simply done with natural ingredients, the same way they do it in Italy, in London, at a much better price point and a much better quality than was being done. And so that was a year of sort of you know, notepads, notes, traveling, you know, putting my thoughts together. And it was just one thing led to another. Um, and and and then at that stage I was like, okay, I I think I think I want to do this. Uh you know, how do I go about it? And obviously, I've got no experience in hospitality or restaurants. Um so I went to some of my poker clients and I told them about this sort of sort of idea or plan that I had. And I was like, you know, like I've been doing events for you guys for, you know, some of them were seven years, some of them was two years, some of them were three years. And I said, This is what I want to do. Do you you know, do you have any interest to talk to me or to, you know, and I was surprised a lot of people were really interested to talk to me. Um, and and that obviously looking back, some of them were extremely successful people, and um I guess I was very fortunate um that they did want to talk to me, but um the the the one thing they all said to me was that you know the the level and quality of how your events were run were far better than anybody else we've ever hired. And so they're like, we don't care if you're 17 or 18, you know, and and I think I built a lot of trust with them in that you know, I I cannot remember a single event over seven years where I turned up late. Cannot remember a single event where we had a problem with a member of staff. Um, you know, so you know, uh try to kind of make up for the fact that I was young and didn't have money with what I did have, which was energy and a brain and um hard work. Um and I think that paid off a bit because we had a a f a handful of them, of a few of them who um said, yeah, we'll we'll give you about a hundred K between them. I put in 25k everything I'd saved from poker events and playing poker after paying paying for a lot of uni stuff. Um and and that was it, you know. As they say in poker, I was all in. Um and and so yeah, and uh and so I you know from that I had a couple of people who were quite experienced in business who decided to um also mentor me and guide me in the early days, and I think that was that was critical. Without that, we would never be where we are today. I think that initial, you know, whether it's once a month for an hour, that initial guidance or soundboard, um, I guess it's the equivalent to like having a non-exec on your board of directors, but that looking back was absolutely critical. Just to get one or two people who really just kind of care, kind of want to go on this crazy journey, but also know a lot of what you don't know about the world, you know.

Jay Greenwood: 12:28

Um one point I want to go touch on now is skill acquisition because you mentioned a few things, and the consistent theme is no experience, didn't know what to do. And still to have the confidence to go, well, I think I can still do it well, it's quite a big thing. So, what frameworks do you have for skill acquisition and how have you done it effectively well to kind of what you said there, to go from someone who didn't have any experience to actually doing things very well above expectations of other people, basically?

Andrew Macleod: 12:59

Yeah. So yeah, it's it's a very good question, and I'll I'll give you a couple of perspectives on it. I think number one, um, because I spent a lot of time with successful people when I was running their poker events, I got a bit of an insight into how they thought about the world. Um, and the number one thing that became sort of apparent over many years was that everybody was telling me that you can only really take a risk risk-free when you don't have responsibility. Um, and there were quite a few other guys who were very successful in different groups who maybe hadn't achieved maybe what they wanted to achieve, but had friends who had. And they were very clear with me that if you do want to take risks, try and start earlier rather than later, because once you've got a family and mortgage, um, it becomes it becomes a whole lot harder. Um, but the way I saw it was quite simple. Um, and I saw it as, you know, I grew up, you know, my mum, she she lived by herself with me and my brother. You know, she worked plus brought us up as two boys. Um, and she was just extraordinarily hardworking, um, but also with very good morals and values. Um, and and I think with that came the fact that I realized I'm not actually risking anything. I've gotten nothing, I've got everything to gain, right? And so looking back at the poker analogy, I saw it as you know, the upside is let's say 100, the downside is minus one. So it's like this this just feels like a sure bet. It feels like I have to do this. It's not like if I win, I get 50, if I lose, I lose 50, you know. So I was like, I don't have much, so I don't really have much to lose, but I've got so much to gain. Um, so I think that's what gave me subconsciously that confidence just to not even look left or right and just do it.

Jay Greenwood: 14:52

Um absolutely incredible. And yeah, I completely agree. It's um I was thinking as well, if you do something and even if you lose, you still gain way more than you thought because of this the other stuff outside of it. So I completely agree.

Andrew Macleod: 15:04

And I and I was like, I'm not I'm not losing anything. I mean, I I think that's the the the thing is that how risk is assessed. I think a lot of people do it incorrectly or do it in the wrong way. Um you know, I think what I always knew is that I had a mum and a dad, although they were separate, who loved me and my brother to bits, and whatever happened, we'd still be able to fall back on them, not maybe financially, not maybe in other ways, but you know, morally, emotionally, and as as a family. And so I thought, what do I have to lose? You know, if I lose my savings, well, so be it. You know, it's not like I was spending them on anything important anyway, you know. Um and and so I think for me it does come down also to I I I think it's not to say that you can't do very well if you don't have that incentive, but I think you know, when when your incentive is as I've described, I I think it becomes quite um uh you know, I think it becomes a lot easier um because you're less worried about what do I have to lose.

Jay Greenwood: 16:07

Nice. And now I want to talk onto that first site. You go to St. Catherine's Dock, you find a place, and you go, right, this is the past restaurant, I'm gonna create this. How did you go from you know, finding this spot to opening? And also what was the cr contradictory advice you got along the way that you maybe looked into and maybe saw an alternative route based on what maybe the norm was about protest and going from idea to opening a restaurant?

Andrew Macleod: 16:37

Yeah, yeah. So there were two significant things that I remember. Number one was that everybody said no one's gonna go out to eat pasta. Pasta you eat at home and it's a food for home. That's why nobody is doing pasta properly in restaurants. Um, so that was the first thing that a lot of older people, not necessarily business people, but whether it's you know your parents, friends, some older people you know, everyone was like, you're crazy. You know, there's a reason no one's doing this, basically. And the second thing was to do with money, was that everybody was like, you know what, Andrew, we you know, before obviously we had the people who who signed up, everyone was like, Andrew, this sounds great. We love you, we believe in you, but I think you just don't have a bloody clue what you're doing. Um and you think you're gonna do this in X, I think you're just gonna burn the house down, basically. Um, so so those were the two sort of biggest um things that I guess obstacles. Um, and so I actually turned them around into kind of opportunities and thought, okay, well, that means if we can make pasta good enough for someone to eat in a restaurant, they should come to the restaurant. But it has to be good enough. If it's just a bit better than what you can eat at home, they're not gonna come to us. Um so so I kind of flipped it around. I kind of flipped that problem into a more into a more opportunity um, you know, uh let's say perspective. And same with the money, I was like, okay, I hear you, but I don't want to burn the house down and half a million quid along with it. So actually, I don't want a million quid. Let's try and do it in far less than that. And and that's when, you know, one of our investors who became my my mentor um in the business, he was like, You either do it in this money or you don't do it. All right. And and I think when you've got those options, you then have to decide, do you do it or do you not do it? And for me, that 125k, every single person I'd ever spoken to has said, you're not gonna do it in this. And so then my mindset just became more about how can we do it for 125k? So do we maybe go for a smaller space? Do we maybe go for a less prime spot? What do we do, right? How can I sort of tweak the constraints of what I've got to make it work? Because I didn't have any other option. And so I was looking at numerous sites around London, and I I remember, you know, when you're a sort of 23-year-old, I think it was at the time, and you're sort of talking to big sharky real estate agents, nobody wants to talk to you because A, they know you can't pay the rents they're pitching, and B, they're never going to put you in front of their client and say, here's who you should rent the site to. And so I started figuring out quite early on that actually we need quite a unique site, one where someone really wants to give someone a shot, and where again there's some you know upside potential for them. And so what I started doing was I started not just talking to agents, I started just walking up certain high streets where I thought we could do well and talking to the people who ran the shops to say, hey, you know, is things going okay? And obviously I knew which ones were doing a bit better, which ones were busier. Um and and just started the conversation. And you know, some of them were like, actually, you know what, we're not doing that well. And you know, and uh then my next thing would be was oh, do you want to get out? And a lot of them would say yes, but you need to pay me X or you need to pay me a premium of 200k, and then you just walk away from that and realize that's not for you. But you know, and it just taught me more about you've got to find the opportunity, you know, nothing is impossible to find. And I just kept looking and looking, and then I was still running my poker events as I was doing this, and um, I actually had a poker game which had a lot of property agents in them, and they all knew I was looking for a site, but I think they were all very skeptical. They probably thought, oh, he's just another one who's pretending or he's trying. And one of them mentioned that in St. Catherine Docks, Blackstone, who was one of the biggest real estate investors in the world, had just bought the docks, and they were very likely looking to put some new tenants in. Um, and so I actually visited there on New Year's Eve because um I think it was my brother or a friend of mine was doing a small New Year's Eve dinner around the area. I visited it, I was like, wow, this place looks amazing, even though it was quite run down back then compared to what it is today. Um and yeah, I just started calling an email Blackstone to say I'm interested, like there's no brochure or anything. And it happened to be they were just they were pre-marketing, and there was this tiny little site um which they'd earmarked potentially for a coffee shop or a small grab and go. And when I presented the concept, that was exactly what they wanted. They're like, we're looking to put innovative F and B into here, that's part of our strategy, and so it just happened to be that what we were offering, they were looking for. Um, and and they decided to give us a shot. We presented to you know a very corporate Blackstone uh you know asset managers who are managing that sort of hundred million acquisition that they'd done, um, talking about, gave them a bit of food to try of a pasta, and they all loved it. And they're like, you know what? In the grand scheme of things, it was a tiny site, and they probably just thought if it doesn't work, it's gonna be another coffee shop, so you know why not do it? But that's where how we started, and we actually opened all in in under 100k. Um I actually had spare spare money at the end of it, yeah. Um, because that the landlord agreed to do some of the fit out because they I think they really loved the concept and they thought it could be good. Um, and then fast forward a f a few years from then, um, you know, when we opened, had a miserable two, three months. I was working in the restaurant every day, washing dishes in the kitchen, front of house, doing the marketing, doing the accounting, doing everything you could imagine, and struggling to get people in, but I would stand outside the restaurant and talk to people and say, if you come in and you don't like it, I'll give it to you for free. Um, and we started getting a lot of people like that. And then it just built up and it built up and it built up, and following on from three months of pain and and seeing sort of 10 people a day come in, which obviously are burning a ton of cash, to to getting to a stage a couple of years later where we were turning away a hundred people a day, um, and people were just absolutely loving it. Um and and so, yeah, that that sort of that two years are maybe skipped over it quite a bit, but that was um that was testing because when you're there and you've got a restaurant where you're paying rent and you've got fixed costs and you've got a few members of staff, but you're only bringing in 10 customers a day, um, it's miserable because you're there and you see how it didn't help that it was the middle of winter as well, and in London the winter is very windy and wet and everything else. Um, but that's what I said to myself. I said, I'm not gonna sit here and moan about it. Sure, there were days where I was probably close to tears and thinking, what on earth have I done wrong? But then the next morning I just get up and say, Well, the only way you can build this is one customer at a time. And we, you know, social media, press, we tried everything, you know, and then slowly we just started building up attention, and suddenly pasta was a thing. And you know, we had Padella who opened at a similar time to us, which was probably actually a great thing for the pasta category that there were two of us who were both sort of believing and thinking in the same direction um about what we felt pasta should be. Um, and that unfortunately they had a lot of restaurant experience, which I think put a bit of a spotlight on pasta, um, which then helped to propel everybody in the pasta space.

Jay Greenwood: 24:23

Um such a lovely, uh lovely journey. I I just love listening to it. And I relate so much that experience of looking around and seeing not many people coming in and struggling, reminding myself not to take it personally, that it's uh other things going on.

Andrew Macleod: 24:37

But uh But it but it is personal, right? That's the thing. That's what I've realized that it is personal in restaurants, in hospitality, when you build something, it is personal, right? You have put your heart and soul, whether it's the chairs, the tables, the materials. So although you try not to take it personally, you cannot not take it personally. You know, you have to take it personally because it's the market or the world telling you that this is either good enough or it's not good enough.

Jay Greenwood: 25:06

And that brings me perfectly on to my next point I want to talk about because hospitality is the most magical sex in the world. And one thing that's fundamental with a lot of hospitality operators, and sometimes they forget, is the operational uh financial side of it about understanding the economics of it. But they're very much good on the personal experience side of stuff. How have you balanced the sort of process focused, you know, making sure the margins are there with also the creative um personal hospitality structures that people love?

Andrew Macleod: 25:35

Yeah, okay. So so you you mean more sort of how how how do we balance everything basically?

Jay Greenwood: 25:40

Well, I guess more, I guess from your framework side of stuff, you know, I'm thinking maybe, you know, there's a there's a framework where you go, right, we need to make sure operationally XYZ is there, but at the same time, you've also then got to make sure you know you're building those personal elements in that it's not all functional, it's like that personal brand touches that come in. But basically how that brand then sort of creeps into the whole experience around sort of the efficiency of the restaurant.

Andrew Macleod: 26:02

Yeah, yeah. I think it's a really good question, um, because I think this is sort of the make or break point for restaurants um as a whole, and I think it's partly the reason why you see all of all sort of the the corpses of the huge brands that overexpanded lost their soul, um, and and then sort of a slowly disappearing um you know f you know from the high street. I I think for me it comes down to sort of who we are as people, right? Um the w what I've noticed over the years at Amelia's is Emilias is kind of a reflection of the the personality and the individuals who run it, right? And so at Emilias, that's myself and our operations director. And I think you know, our values, hearts, souls, I think are in Emilias, right? And that gets reflected on um, you know, on the teams, on the customers, on everybody. Um, one thing we've had from day one, which is again as a result of not having any money, um, was that we always had to do things carefully and meticulously. Um, that was our only way. We couldn't buy our way out of anything, right? And I think um that's one thing that I think whenever I have you know other founders or potential founders approach me in terms of whether it's to invest or to you know be a sounding board for them or or to support them. Um, you know, one thing I always say is I think a lack of money is a great thing um because it really forces you to be creative, it really forces you to dig deep also to question yourself why are we doing XYZ? You know, are we doing it just for money? Are we doing it because we truly believe this is a great thing for the brand? Are we doing it because our people will become happier from this? Are we doing this because our customers will become happier? I mean, what what is why are we doing and what are we doing, right? Um, and so what I try and say is that because we've grown organically, um, we have naturally been able to deepen the brand rather than dilute it as it grows. And I think that's a critical thing, is that if you think about even you know, an individual or a country or a group of people is they have a set of values, right? And when you grow too fast, the the biggest risk is that you lose those values or that you dilute them. And so I think at Emilias, what we've had, which was not by choice, but we were forced into was the fact that everything had to be done for a reason, right? And we had to all love that reason because we weren't paying anybody to look the other way, you know. We weren't paying a corporate CEO big bucks to deliver results but ignore half the stuff. We knew that we were living and breathing every decision we had. So if we made a decision that, for example, made our team's life worse, right, but made us more money, we would feel the consequences of that every day. You know? And so I think that's what creates good balance in a business. It's when you are in there hands-on, day in and day out, you know, you have uh to be creative and you feel the consequences of everything. Because I think it's very easy to make decisions when you don't feel the consequences. So if if you look at a more corporate company and you make a decision on a board level, you probably don't see, hear, or feel what the results are of your actions, right? Whilst we felt that, both myself and Ashak, our operations director, we would feel every decision. We'd have pressure from our shareholders in terms of we want to make X, Y, Z. Zed more money, but then we'd realize actually if we screw this up and we, you know, squeeze too hard that actually we're ruining the culture and the team. You know, and I so I think that balance was gained through trial and error, through making some mistakes, but it was also, I'd say, through the lens that myself and Ashik, we always try and make decisions through the lens of customers and our team. Those are probably the two primary lenses that we look at. Um, I would say shareholders, investors is probably after that. Um, the primary thing is we need to preserve and enhance this brand, and we need to inspire and you know make our teams happier than they were a year ago, right? Um, and and so I think if you look at it through that lens and you make decisions through that lens, um you will have longevity, you will have um a more longer-term business, you know, and and we've we've always seen emilias as a longer-term thing. We've we've never, there's a lot of people who start a food business or restaurant business. I want to launch it, then I want to sell it in two years or or X years, whatever it is. We've always seen it as we're building something special, whether it's a special team, a special brand, a special product. Um, and I think that's what guides us, not short-term results or short-term profits.

Jay Greenwood: 31:26

Love that. And I love your point around constraints. And it makes me want to chat about the next part about basically your long-term vision around sort of muties, because there must be that well, there's the industry where you have the norm, which is raise money, pump multiple sites a year, grow it, and then basically try to look for an exit or something. Yeah, you've kind of gone from the other approach of, like you say, slowly uh um concentrating those values, refining them and perfecting them basically. Yeah. So what was the I guess the like the constraint, the sorry, the push and pull around those decisions? Did you ever have any? Or was it always just really simple and obvious to you that what everyone else was doing was probably wrong and what you were doing was probably the right.

Andrew Macleod: 32:09

Yeah, so for me, it was all about us remaining independent and being in control of our own destiny. Yeah. What I learned very quickly is if you run out of money, you have to raise more money, and thus, you know, you'll need to give control away of the business. Um, the reason we've taken the path with Cating is we want to have a very strong foundation for the brand. You know, a very strong first five, ten years. I think it's not to say we won't raise capital in the future and grow the business, of course. You know, I th I think sometimes in order to realize the full potential of the brand, you do need experienced people, experienced investors, you know, people who've done it before to realize the potential. But I think the difference between maybe ourselves and some others is we're in control of that now. We're not desperate to raise money just to survive. So when I have conversations today with investors who have approached us, you know, the conversation is one of a partnership, not one of you guys are going to dictate how this is going to run and essentially potentially run it into the ground, but one of balance, one where we understand you have your financial goals to achieve, and we also have our brand goals. So how can we marry those up together? And so I think it's all about if we have a strong brand and company, there is, you know, we have a stronger position in terms of that partnership. Um, and I think it's also mutually beneficial when people see how well a company or a brand is built, um, that they don't want to ruin that either, you know, um, and they want to preserve and enhance and deepen what has been built to date. Um, so I think proving that you can make things work your own way without, you know, top industry CEOs or CFOs or board members actually builds a lot of trust in people. Um, that we do actually balance well the finances with the people, with the culture, with the customers.

Jay Greenwood: 34:15

Incredible. Um, I'm gonna finish up on one final question where it seems like you have a um, you know, a good I guess, framework or also habit to constantly think about things in the right way. Is there any daily habits or processes you put in place to make sure you're checking in and sort of making sure, I guess, the analogy that things all going in the right direction and not slightly veering off by a couple percent here or there?

Andrew Macleod: 34:39

Yeah, so so so I mean, do you so do you mean professionally or personally or both?

Jay Greenwood: 34:44

Both in in any format you want. I'm just thinking, is there anything in particular that you do or a daily process or in in general? It could be focused on the business, or it could be for you personally, that just put a putting all together.

Andrew Macleod: 34:56

Yeah, so there are actually, I'll start with the business and then I'll go on to personal. Um, one thing I like to do at Amelia's is actually ensure that our managers see, hear, and feel the consequence of their decisions across different divisions. So, to give you an example, if something goes wrong, if marketing make a decision and that affects the operations negatively, I want them to see, feel, and hear that. I don't want to tell them that you guys have messed up. I want them to feel it and see it. Because I think that's so important to for people owning what they do, is that they need to see that actually when you make one small decision, let's say in food and drink, even if it's to change a supplier or a recipe, and that affects the customers, the operations, the brand, the reviews that go online, when you actually see the full breadth of you know the potential consequence, I think that makes people a lot more uh thoughtful and responsible. I think what what what I've learned over the years is that it's not that I think when people care and they're good people, it's not that they don't want to see all those elements I've mentioned. It's just if you've let's say grown up in marketing and all you've worked in is marketing, you can't expect that person to understand the intricacies of finance or operations or other areas of the business, right? And so for me, it's part of that multidisciplinary approach of that's what I've done with myself is when I make a decision and a division doesn't like it, I want them to tell me directly, I want to hear it, I want to feel it. I may not agree with it, but I want to hear it, you know, to understand what they're going through and why they think the way they think. Um, and so I'd say that what what I see often in either friends who work in different organizations and some of the complaints they have is that often they'll say something like, Oh, this other division made this decision and it's screwed us over and nobody cares, you know. And that's what I want to avoid. I want people to actually at Amelia's and especially our managers and senior managers to know that you know your your consequence, even let's say I'll give you on a build of a new site, right? Whether you put the kitchen counter 20 or 30 centimeters further forward, left or right, can seem like a very little decision. But then when you go and realize that actually that site is gonna be there for at least 15 years in that layout, and that there is potentially one or two individuals, chefs, let's say, if it's that area we're talking about, who are going to be working in that area and are going to experience the negative effects of that decision. I think when you actually see it in person, it makes you not rush over that decision any longer. Um, and and so that's what again, another example in projects. That's what we have. When we're building new sites, we spend a lot of time to consult different teams. Um, because the people working in the sites can guide us um on how these sites should be better built. Um and yeah, it's never we can never create a perfect site, but I think it's that multidisciplinary approach of, well, let's hear what finance has to say, let's hear what ops have to say. And I think for a lot of people that can be quite stressful because having different opinions that don't agree with your own one is stressful to manage. Um, but what I I think that's the beauty of building something great is that you have to kind of learn how to see different perspectives. Um absolutely love that.

Jay Greenwood: 38:41

Well, I think that's um a perfect place to uh wrap up this interview. And honestly, thanks so much for coming on. It's been such an honor to like do all the research, like I say, I loved it. And to hear you like articulate like it all, it's just so much value to the audience and to myself who learned so much. So um genuinely mean it, D Dannett. Thank you so much for coming on and showing it because I've enjoyed it very, very much. So thank you.

Andrew Macleod: 39:02

Yeah, well, thank you for having me and have enjoyed sharing a bit of our sort of business values and philosophy um that we have at Emilia.

Jay Greenwood: 39:12

As always, guys, thank you so much for listening. Really appreciate the support. And if you guys like it and you're enjoying what you're listening to, please like and subscribe. And prior review, we'd really appreciate it. Um, again, we'll be back doing this weekly. And yeah, if you want to know more about starting a food business, head to www.jgreenwood.com. But guys, as always, thank you. It'd be great.