With everything moving online, what does it take to make communication accessible for all? This season of Public Hearing is tackling all things Digital Equity - from small towns to national organizations - to better understand the obstacles and pathways to closing the digital divide.
In our first episode exploring a city outside of Massachusetts, Josh speaks with Katie Hearn, Director of The Detroit Community Technology Project (@detcommtech) about redistributing Gigabit Internet, addressing community need, and common ownership.
Public Hearing is a podcast from Action! by Design where we explore the unique challenges and opportunities facing Massachusetts' Gateway Cities as they work to create more equitable, liberated, and sustainable communities. Listen to all of our episodes at https://publichearing.buzzsprout.com/ and follow us on Twitter @PublicHearingMA to keep up to date on all things Public Hearing!
Prefer the radio? Tune in Wednesdays at 6pm on WICN 90.5FM, Worcester's only NPR affiliate station. Not in the Worcester area? No worries, you can listen live at WICN.org
With everything moving online, what does it take to make communication accessible for all? This season of Public Hearing is tackling all things Digital Equity - from small towns to national organizations - to better understand the obstacles and pathways to closing the digital divide.
In our first episode exploring a city outside of Massachusetts, Josh speaks with Katie Hearn, Director of The Detroit Community Technology Project (@detcommtech) about redistributing Gigabit Internet, addressing community need, and common ownership.
Public Hearing is a podcast from Action! by Design where we explore the unique challenges and opportunities facing Massachusetts' Gateway Cities as they work to create more equitable, liberated, and sustainable communities. Listen to all of our episodes at https://publichearing.buzzsprout.com/ and follow us on Twitter @PublicHearingMA to keep up to date on all things Public Hearing!
Prefer the radio? Tune in Wednesdays at 6pm on WICN 90.5FM, Worcester's only NPR affiliate station. Not in the Worcester area? No worries, you can listen live at WICN.org
Joshua Croke (00:00):
Hello, Worcester and the world. You are listening to Public Hearing on WICN 90.5FM, Worcester's only NPR affiliate station, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm your host Joshua Croke, and we have been talking all things digital equity, closing the digital divide, digital inclusion and accessibility this season. Public Hearing is Action! by Design’s podcast and radio show where we explore challenges and opportunities facing Massachusetts Gateway Cities as folks work to create more equitable, liberated and sustainable communities featuring the people and organizations doing the work to realize impactful change. You can learn more about how you can support our community centered show at publichearing.co. And this is the Public Hearing Podcast. Our guest today is Katie Hearn, the director of the Detroit Community Technology Project. Katie Hearn is a Detroiter, community technologist and staunch proponent of accountable community benefit. Upon leaving Central Michigan University with a marketing degree, compounding crises of municipal bankruptcy, water shut-offs, housing foreclosures, and unchecked corporate tax abatements helped direct their attention to community wireless as a means of supporting Detroiters facing further and faster displacement.
Joshua Croke (01:13):
Ultimately, Katie was led to the Detroit Digital Justice Coalition, a blueprint for the hundreds across the country today, where they were moved by the promise of alternative digital futures, including models for community controlled internet. As the director of DCTP, they engage local, state, and national stakeholder partnerships, help to resist surveillance capitalism in favor of consentful technologies, and support long-term sustainability for programs like the Equitable Internet Initiative, which leverages the digital stewardship curriculum to support residents in redistributing Gigabit Internet across Detroit's historically disinvested from and digitally redlined neighborhoods. Katie is a founding board member of the Detroit Kite Festival and previously served as a board member at the Detroit Community Wealth Fund and United Community Housing Coalition. Katie, I am obsessed with your bio and, um, welcome to Public Hearing. Thanks for being here. I always invite folks to add to, um, share more about their own self or experience, um, that you feel might help listeners as we go on our discussion journey today. So, Katie, welcome to Public Hearing.
Katie Hearn (02:24):
Thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited to be here. Um, and major props on getting through that bio. Um, what I might add is, you know, I am a neurodivergent mind, got a little ADHD going. Um, so we'll try to keep it tight and concise as we go through today. Um, but beyond that, um, maybe helpful to know, you know, I've, uh, growing up I've had experiences on both sides of the digital divide and it's really been an anchor point in terms of my own analysis as, uh, a Detroiter, but it's also just a digital citizen today. So happy to be here.
Joshua Croke (02:58):
Thank you. And you are bringing a far an out-of-state perspective to our conversations about things going on here in Massachusetts. We, our most recent conversation was with Gina D. Cooper Benjamin from the National Digital Inclusion Alliance, who talked about the importance of national networks and coalitions and connectivity. Uh, and we are talking all sorts of connectivity and what that means. And so I'm so excited to have you here on the show today. And so maybe we can start for our listeners with a little bit of the origin story of the Detroit Community Technology Project.
Katie Hearn (03:32):
Yes, absolutely. Um, so DCTP, our mission is to build and use technology that's rooted in community need. Um, so for us, that means a few things. Um, one is that, you know, we really are aiming to build the world we know is possible. Um, so an alternative vision for technology. Um, but for us it is imperative that those most impacted by a situation are at the forefront of generating solutions. So this analysis, um, is really an anchor point for us as we are born from the Detroit Digital Justice Coalition. Um, so in 2009, that group actually formed, uh, in order to really, uh, kind of galvanize some of the grassroots perspectives around how internet and communications technologies could be leveraged to support social justice movements. So, um, you know, we do believe that communication is a fundamental human right, and we hold that digital justice, digital equity, we'll talk about that framing a bit, um, is really rooted in racial equity and economic equity as well.
Joshua Croke (04:43):
And could I just pause you?
Katie Hearn (04:44):
So, yeah.
Joshua Croke (04:45):
Very briefly, because I just wanna share for listeners how much I love the framing of communication as a fundamental human right, and like the nuance and complexity that exists within what that means. So I just wanted to just highlight and underscore, uh, because I think that's incredible.
Katie Hearn (05:04):
Yeah, thank you for that. Thank you. Um, so yes, the DDJC was, uh, essentially a group of and is, uh, a group of welfare rights organizations, environmental justice organizations, educators, youth-led programs, um, really coming together to shape an analysis and apply for some of the broadband technology opportunity funds. Um, and really what we saw take shape as that coalition was forming was a participatory process to develop our digital justice principles. Um, so these principles, undergird DCTP’s activities to date, um, but have also really helped to shape, um, how coalitions and organizations are approaching digital equity and the, the broader questions of the digital divide. So, um, overall, the kind of four tenets of the Principles are access, participation, common ownership, and healthy communities. So these aren't meant to be, you know, an exhaustive list, but what we really understand to be true, um, is that really honoring those four tenets and some of the, um, really the the ways to get at the solutions.
Katie Hearn (06:19):
That's a good way to kind of sort through all of this. As you said, communication as a human right, that is a broad reach because we acknowledge that, um, we're meeting people where they're at and folks’ lived experience is expertise and should be leveraged as such. Yes. Um, so yes, the coalition now has, uh, been in existence for over 10 years. Um, but really that was a space where not only were we bringing the coalition perspective to digital justice and framing what that meant in the Detroit context. Um, simultaneously we were starting to see a collaboration, um, between one of the organizing, um, organizing members of the DDJC, Allied Media Projects and the Open Technology Institute. Um, so the beautiful, beautiful baby that came from this collaboration all these years ago, um, was a pilot in 2012 of our Digital Stewards curriculum.
Katie Hearn (07:15):
So that curriculum in itself, um, is 100% aimed at addressing, um, community solutions through a pop-ed pedagogy and a train the trainer process. So, uh, kind of zooming in a bit the Digital Stewards curriculum. Yes, it is tech, it encompasses some digital engineering skills, some basic construction, but it has a very heavy counterweight in terms of people and community organizing. So really tapping into the relationships that build our social fabric as a means of really shaping how technology is then brought into our communities versus what we are most accustomed to, right. It's kind of a top down deployment, very little input, let alone benefit. So, um, fast forward a bit to 2014 DCTP was formed to really continue grounding that work in Detroit's context, um, but also making available more of our resources. Um, so essentially we have a scenario where, um, again, Detroit perspective, we have a new kid on the block in terms of Gigabit speed connectivity in Detroit's really like business district downtown.
Katie Hearn (08:31):
Knowing that Detroit has historically in very well documented fashion been one of the least or worst connected cities in the country. Hmm. So we're already dealing with this type of disparity. We are already dealing with compounding crises generally as residents. That's a recipe for disaster in terms of exasperating the divide. So, um, DCTP partnered with a few anchor organizations, three to be exact, um, newcc, GIA, uh, I have links for all of these <laugh>, um, and BLVD Harambee Church of the Messiah. And these anchor organizations in partnering with DCTP, were actually able to help us scale the digital stewardship curriculum away from mesh networks, which is kind of the base level, um, community wireless configuration toward point points, which allows us to actually redistribute Gigabit speed wireless. Game changer. So in a sense, EII has been really, um, working to incubate neighborhood level ISPs that are rooted in community need, that have established relationships and understanding of not only what the barriers to accessing internet are, but also what the myriad intersections are when we're looking at all of the struggles facing Detroiters.
Katie Hearn (09:56):
So the other kind of side to our programming, um, as we launched was our data justice work, um, which was really launched by, um, Tawana “Honeycomb” Petty shout out to Tawana. Um, but Tawana was tasked with really understanding one, what is a national kind of perspective as far as our data bodies, I'll have a link for that as well, but understanding what are the risks once you are online? How do those risks kind of spill over and snowball into your life offline? How does that impact, uh, community development and real estate around you? How are you being tracked? So this is kind of, um, also the anchor point where we've been thinking also about what infrastructure does exist in the city. We're aware that there's a disparity, we're aware we’re missing infrastructure, but what infrastructure do we have? And as the city of Detroit began rolling out their Project Green Light, which is also being replicated in other places, this is a, um, business level subscription, uh, for a Comcast connection that powers real-time surveillance. So we've seen a massive investment in surveillance technologies, which as a reminder, Detroit is one of the only remaining majority Black cities in the country. And we're seeing a huge uptick in spending not only on, you know, technology that doesn't necessarily serve root cause or community need, but it's also exacerbate, exacerbating some of the issues in terms of biased algorithms and how that bleeds over into our everyday lives. That was a lot.
Joshua Croke (11:38):
It was, and it was, there was also, there's so much there that I want to talk about and, and unpack. And the thing that for me keeps coming forward, and I'm sure some listeners were like, what are some of those acronyms? What we talked a good amount in earlier in the season around some of the, um, the definitions around broadband and internet and internet service providers and what those relationships look like. And the thing that keeps coming forward for me is how much you and your partners have done and accomplished. And I, as someone who is a facilitator and loves to spend ti- deep time cultivating community space for effective collaboration, the principles I think keep coming forward for me is like, this is the mechanism that enabled a lot of that work to happen. And I think one of the challenges that we face in this work is the desire for speed and movement past some of these core foundational needs to really work together most effectively and impact impactfully and equitably.
Joshua Croke (12:46):
So I'd love to spend a little bit of time diving into those principles. Um, Public Hearing as a show, the name came out of the upset for really failed municipal processes around listening to the public, right? What public participation looks like. And as we were envisioning this show, we said, we need better mechanisms for participation that truly center the voices of those most impacted by the challenges that are being faced in our communities. And we need the systems that are and should be redistributing power to folks, you know, within our communities to truly go into the communities and have the communities be the decision making table. So I'd love to hear a little bit more about authentic participation and like the dedication of time and resources it requires to be truly effective and equitable.
Katie Hearn (13:45):
Mm-hmm. I love it. I love it. So, you know, one thing that is always quite present for me in this moment as we are preparing for kind of this federal funding blitz, right? Is that there have been, and likely always will be some really challenging power dynamics that are at play when we're talking about community engagement at a municipal level. If we're thinking about public private partnerships, or even in the case of forming coalition relationships, right? So, you know, kind of off top we're seeing, uh, or viewing access as, you know, can we actually get at infrastructure viewing participation at, we know everything's moving online, we know we want more input from people actually living this, but as we're kind of moving, I would say hurdling right towards this moment, thinking about participation for me raises a lot of questions about how we can fundamentally reframe the kind of, uh, I think it's move fast and break stuff kind of, uh, ethos that comes out of Silicon Valley.
Katie Hearn (15:04):
Um, and at the same time really intentionally and intensively address the notion that community members just don't know what's going on. They don't know how to, um, actually participate in ways that, you know, the corporate lobby might know how. So one thing I I wanted to be sure to raise today is, you know, yes, we're thinking about participation from the standpoint of design, whether that is, um, designing a question set to drive you towards your own set of principles being really, um, uh, intentional about how you are creating spaces that are truly accessible. I heard you mention that earlier. So are there ways for differently abled people to participate or folks that process differently to contribute? But in this moment, I'm also really curious about how we can prepare and invest in folks to participate at levels of governance, levels of ownership. Right? Because truth be told, we're extremely wary of creating the, a kind of a new flavor of the digital divide where we had a lot of money available and we're kind of resourcing some of the wrong folks, right?
Katie Hearn (16:23):
To check some community engagement boxes, say “we did it, nothing to be accountable to,” and lo and behold didn't actually resource community members adequately to participate in a meaningful way. So whether that means, um, helping folks at a fundamental level navigate Zoom, whether that means actually a, a training in being a board member or a commission member. Note taking, annotating, question, asking, cultivating spaces where we're not only focused on the infrastructure or extremely focused on building the skillset, whether it's soft, hard, however you wanna think about it. What are the new roles that community members can play? How do we elevate and amplify participation to the point that we actually start to see a benefit versus a corporate boon? Yeah. Participation <laugh>.
Joshua Croke (17:21):
Yeah. Uh, one thing that has guided a lot of my practice, and I'm interested in if this resonates with you, is using data as a tool to inform and not dictate, um, recognizing that communities who have been able or not included or, you know, the, the varying different relationships with how data is collected and shared and not shared. And, um, really we can learn a lot from data and it's really important, um, as practice and the, the process of collecting is, you know, very important in how we also are sharing that back to communities. But communities can choose to accept and utilize data as a mechanism for decision making or reject it entirely, regardless if it's right, wrong, indifferent, otherwise. Um, and so when we talk about participation, that's something that is, is coming forward for me, is like, how do we make these spaces again, more accessible? The other piece that connects to me is this common ownership principle. And I'd love to have you share more about common ownership and what that means and what that looks like for, for listeners who might not be familiar with that kind of concept.
Katie Hearn (18:41):
Yes, absolutely. So common ownership, uh, kind of on its head right, was really envisioned as the aspiration to literally control our technology. How can we ensure that we're not only like creating commodities, we're not only creating, um, data for market research and advertising. So common ownership really spans data, network building, all of it. And as, especially in this moment, right, thinking about what, what are the benefits that we could leverage and what are the harms that we haven't uncovered? So to your point about, you know, in inform and not dictate, I think is the way you said it, um, you know, we've had instances where in discussing the launch of our open data portal here in Detroit years ago, we had to really sit and share with the data practitioners. Actually, what we're seeing is folks are logging onto the portal from China and using it as a speculation tool in real estate, or people are utilizing our, um, I forget what it's called, but we have an app that's kind of connected to our data sets where you can report, you know, dumping, illegal dumping.
Katie Hearn (20:11):
That's been an issue. Detroit is sprawling. So without a community member's input and saying like, Hey, actually since this data set has been released, I'm actually seeing in uptick in dumping because folks now have an easier way to pinpoint where there isn’t attention in the community. Would never have made that kind of revelation just using data on its head. But the other thing that I think we're seeing, you know, kind of zooming or kind of fast forwarding to this moment, right? Is what data is available? Where and why. So the state of Michigan we're an example of, you know, I mean like many other states, right? The data has been spotty, they've been working hard to collect it, but the city of Detroit is such a challenge for a myriad of reasons. But the fact is, we are facing a scenario where data driven grant making is essentially informed or dictated, I'm not sure, <laugh> by incomplete data sets.
Katie Hearn (21:14):
So what is the role in community member's perspective, right? How can they one, be resourced to participate in this process instead of only sending in outsiders? But furthermore, what is the relationship between the policies that are laid out? Um, the transparency in terms of how the data that is collected will be used, handled, and for how long? What is the community member's role in actually being able to convey that message because they understand it and respect it. So ownership can mean a lot of things from owning a network that you've built and all of the components that go into it, even the fiber all the way through to what is the data that we're creating, and are we essentially exploiting ourselves by not having a clear understanding of what the implications are, not only of the data that is ultimately generated, but the means of collection.
Katie Hearn (22:14):
So we love to talk about privacy policies, consentful technology, um, I'll share some links on, uh, consent for tech as well. But, um, closest comparison, right, is the concept of informed consent. Yes. You, you generally in this digital age have to give up some information, but are you aware, and is it a standard practice for those collecting that data to tell you why they're collecting it, for how long, et cetera, how's it stored? Who are the stewards of that data? And can for once in our lifetimes, the community members be the ones to benefit in some way versus only being a product?
Joshua Croke (22:51):
Yes. I know someone who, um, started a company a few years back that was giving individuals the visibility into how their data's collected and shared and sold, and giving them ownership over where that information is sent and sold and benefiting from the profits that companies are making off of the sale of our personal data. So that's something I'm really in-interested in. And as someone who has been not completely a digital native, but you know, growing up in the dial up years,
Katie Hearn (23:26):
Oh yes.
Joshua Croke (23:27):
Uh, you know, uh, building an early relationship with some of this technology, I've been someone who's like, oh yeah, they have my information anyways. Right? Right. And so it's like, oh, whatever. Um, and then a handful of years ago, um, one of the things that really shocked me into like learning more deeply about these issues was, um, Joy Buolamwini's Coded Bias, uh, documentary, which
Katie Hearn (23:53):
Yes.
Joshua Croke (23:54):
Exposes the so many of the fears around the use of facial recognition and systemic racism that's built into the technologies that we're utilizing on a day-to-day basis.
Joshua Croke (24:07):
Um, in my work, which sits near, I say community and economic development, um, you talk about community-based economic development under your Healthy Communities Principle. Which I first love that healthy communities, is the principle and community-based economic development is nested underneath it. Um, because that is a mechanism for building greater access, health outcomes, et cetera. Um, when done appropriately and correctly, something I deal with a lot when doing that work, um, with municipalities, with institutions, with communities, with coalitions and groups, is folks that are over-planned and underinvested. And so the trust piece is so challenged and, uh, fractured that folks are like, stop asking me questions. Stop bringing me to community meetings. Stop bringing me into these spaces, and nothing happens. Right. Um, and so maybe, and we're getting close to time already. We have about three minutes left, um, which we're definitely gonna have to have you back on the show, but, um, I'll pause there and see if anything there resonates with you. And then also like, give you the space to say, this is what I wanna address in our, in our closing few minutes here.
Katie Hearn (25:37):
Wow. Okay. Um, first thing you know that comes to mind is the fact that organizations, uh, that are hosting digital stewards organizations that are literally dedicating their resources to building infrastructure of their own wireless or not, they're connected to a number of other issue areas. So whether we're thinking about how some of the digital stewards in Southwest are also part of a language translation cooperative because they have, um, a, a large population of non-native English speakers, um, they're able to actually operate a co-op. Um, our folks in the North End been really invested, um, in solar, so marrying wifi and solar beautiful. Be able to talk more about that later too. Um, but we're looking at tangible pathways of employing people where they live. Detroit is notorious for folks having to get on a bus travel outside of city limits just for a, you know, a minimum wage job or two or three. Um, so understanding that on the one hand, we can't really wait for anyone to build an in, uh, something that's inclusive for us. Um, we shouldn't have to travel far outside of it, outside of the city. Um, but also like, uh, well I kind of lost my train of thought on that. But overall, right, in order for us to really access mobility, we have to be, um, comprehensive and holistic in how we're connecting the issue areas. Um, but overall, I think I only have a minute or so left if
Joshua Croke (27:15):
That not even left. And actually, I was gonna say maybe, uh, if you have a few more minutes right now, we can wrap this episode and give a quick, like a little bonus episode for folks.
Katie Hearn (27:25):
Ok.
Joshua Croke (27:26):
Um, if that works. Um, just a few more because I want to talk about the Equitable Internet Initiative a little bit more. And so folks, you've been listening to Public Hearing, um, we are talking with Katie Hearn the director of the Detroit Community Technology Project. And if you are listening on the radio and you want to hear this extended, uh, bonus version of our conversation, please follow the show at publichearing.co and on Twitter and all of those fabulous places. So we're gonna pause and jump back in <laugh> to a conversation with, with Katie.