Nervos Nation

EP: 4 Nervos Nation: Guest Ben Waters Head of Operations

August 05, 2020 Madcapslaugh Season 1 Episode 4
Nervos Nation
EP: 4 Nervos Nation: Guest Ben Waters Head of Operations
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Nervos Nation
EP: 4 Nervos Nation: Guest Ben Waters Head of Operations
Aug 05, 2020 Season 1 Episode 4
Madcapslaugh

In this episode, we interview Ben Waters, Head of Operations

We discuss the upcoming roadmap, grants, what does the foundation work on, and how large is the community. 

Show Notes Transcript

In this episode, we interview Ben Waters, Head of Operations

We discuss the upcoming roadmap, grants, what does the foundation work on, and how large is the community. 

Jonathan caras :

You're listening to nervous nation. I'm Jonathan caras. And I have with me, Gabriel Haynes. And our guest today is Ben waters. Ben, why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself?

Ben Waters :

I, Jonathan, thanks for having me on. Yeah, so my name is Ben. I'm head of operations for for Noah's foundation. A little bit about me. I'm originally from England, I studied at University of Manchester studied engineering and earth science. I actually moved into finance very quickly after that I was a stock market trade on the London Stock Exchange, starting in 2007. After a few years in the financial markets after the crash of 2007 and 2008, he moved away and moved into the kind of startup scene. Work with a very successful e commerce project. Then move towards digital marketing. And through that process I actually started working with with several different cryptocurrency and blockchain projects in early 2017. And then I moved full time into this space in mid 2017, working with a project called iosd. And then after a couple years ago those guys I joined No boss.

Jonathan caras :

Very cool. How did you find out about the project?

Ben Waters :

Yeah, so, obviously, being in the space already, you know, I do a lot of research on lots of different projects. And, you know, when I first learned about nervous I was really, really excited about it. In many ways, you know, I'm a bit of a kind of purist and and very kind of focused on on the kind of very pure permissionless and decentralized aspects of Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies and Novus really kind of fit that with me, you know, and I really appreciate it. Their approach and and and basically the way that they've structured and built the network to to very much kind of iterate and emulate what Bitcoin had achieved. So I thought

Jonathan caras :

that that makes a lot of sense. And what you you mentioned that your role. So can you tell us a little bit more about exactly what that entails, you know, running operations for a foundation like this?

Ben Waters :

Yeah, so I would say my role is quite broad and has definitely evolved over time. So I do quite a lot of work on what we kind of call the community operations. So that's a lot of the kind of grassroots initiatives, community building, and a lot of the kind of operational processes and initiatives coming out of the foundation, things like the grants program and other sort of similar kind of grassroots initiatives like that. I also So I'm involved in in kind of internal operations and all those different things. So, you know, working in a startup, especially a such a fast moving one, like none of us, you know, of course, we wear many hats and cover many different roles.

Jonathan caras :

How many? Can you give us a sense as to how large the organization is? How many people are, are either part of the foundation and then also part of the broader community? Do you have a clearer understanding of what those numbers look like today?

Ben Waters :

Yeah, this is a great question. If you start from the kind of core team, we have a very large development team working full time on the project. So there's a I think there's just over 50 plus engineers working full time on the project. They are sectioned into several different teams, working on different areas. We then have The Foundation and the foundation is kind of separated from from the development team. The foundation is about 20 plus people currently. And we have few separate teams that cover kind of business development, marketing, community operations, and developer relations as well. And then of course, we have the, you could call it maybe the kind of core community that surrounds the project that includes a lot of the developer teams, the community developers, obviously, that includes a lot of the Grand project teams that are building on nervous I would say you've got about 50 to 100 people in that type of group. And then in that wider group, you've got you know, the general community, okay, so guys that are, you know, interested and passionate about the project like to contribute in many different ways, obviously, you know, follow the social channels and that type of thing. And, you know, an estimate for that could be anywhere from you know, 20 To 30 40,000 people, depending on how you want to kind of qualify those metrics, but um, but yeah, that's it. That's a rough estimate.

Jonathan caras :

And geographically, where is most of this this action happening?

Ben Waters :

Yeah, so um, you know, the the project itself has very strong roots based out of China. And a lot of the development team is based out of China. The kind of grassroot movement behind the project definitely started in that area. And in terms of the community size, I would say, that's our strongest and biggest market. I think since kind of late last year, we definitely ramped up, you know, trying to move the project to more of a global focus. And we seem pretty, pretty strong increase in terms of community size and also collaboration from more international developers since then.

Jonathan caras :

That's great. I mean, it's a there's a lot of exciting stuff. That's That's happening. I'm curious what your thoughts are, if you look from where we are today, which is roughly eight months, if I'm not mistaken after the main net launch. And now we've, we've grown leaps and bounds, there's been there's been a number of grants that have been issued, there's been a number of software releases, whether it's wallets or developer environments and things like that. We're where do you see the project a year from now and what what areas? are you most excited to see growth in?

Ben Waters :

Yeah, I think that's a great question. You know, the, the main net, as you mentioned, launched about eight months ago, and that main net, you know, was essentially the the layer one of nervous right, the nervous common knowledge base. And that layer one, which, which was launched, of course, is actually only part of the vision that the whole Network, right. So, you know, the the real fundamental vision behind the project is that, you know, we build this layer one which is highly permissionless secure and decentralized. And the way we achieve or solve the kind of scalability trilemma, which is facing all these projects in the space is by utilizing layer two technology and building on top of that layer one to allow, you know, this high throughput and scalability of the network. So, you know, the, the layer one is highly functional and is operating extremely well. And, you know, the all credit to the development team for delivering that, you know, in such a reasonably short timeline, as well. But really the the focus since main net launch has shifted towards layer two. And so I would say, you know, the, the layer one is only 21 20% of the vision here, and now really, we're focusing on that, that 80% and there's a lot of work going on behind the scenes around this. kind of stuff. So there's a bit I could talk about this for a long time, obviously. But you know, there's many different components to this. One of the things obviously, that's super important for nervous being this open source project is collaboration and community developers coming into the project, to allow that to allow and set the foundation to allow these guys to come in and build out and experiment with these layer two solutions. You know, a lot of work needs to be done around the developer tooling and documentation and all these different areas to allow very easy onboarding of community developers and contributors. So that's a big, big focus and something that we have dedicated a dedicated team for within the development team. And that's going to continue we've had some some great progress over the last six months there were some very really cool, very interesting tools that have just been released and you know that we'll keep moving forward. The second part of that, of course, is the layer two So, you know, yes, we want to bring in community developers to come in and experiment and build out layer two, but also the the core team is also working on on layer two solutions. So there's a lot of stuff going on there as well, especially around kind of payment channels and many different kind of interesting things. There's kind of the Muta framework, which is a very interesting project, I recommend your listeners check out as well. And I think what we're gonna see probably over the next six to 12 months, is a lot of this stuff kind of start to go out and get released and a lot of these new interesting things also being explored and developed. So you know, if you ask me, where where we'll be, will we be in 12 months, I think a year we're gonna be in a totally different place than we are now. I think we're going to have some really, really cool and interesting layer two products coming out. And also a lot of the work coming from the ground teams should be pretty much completed, especially even some of the the big elements In projects, so yeah, so I feel like I mean, in summary, I probably say that today, it just seems like there's the layer one. And I think 12 months from now, we'll probably see that people aren't even really thinking about a layer one, right. And actually, all they're really seeing and interacting with is all the layer two that's been built on top of that.

Jonathan caras :

That's a great answer. You spoke at the beginning of a few minutes ago about the scalability trilemma. So this, I believe, was a vitalik that coined this phrase, I don't remember where I say no, it goes back, I think to 2017, and maybe even before that, but if anybody's not familiar with that. It's the concept that you it's almost like you create an equilateral triangle. And then at one corner, you put security, one corner, you put scalability, one corner you put decentralization, and then each project in the blockchain space has to kind of pick where they want to lie on that map. Obviously, making sacrifices or compromises on one of those three, either security, scalability or decentralization, while emphasizing the other two that they're closer to. It's obviously a little bit challenging to explain that in a podcast. It's a because it's a specifically a visual element. But I'd love if you could talk a little bit more about what exactly is what's nervous is solution in that in solving that scalability trilemma, it's a the regarding the multiple layer two approaches.

Unknown Speaker :

Sure, yeah, I'll take a stab at it.

Ben Waters :

You know, if we look at other projects first right, so if we look at perhaps Bitcoin, which is obviously the the most successful kind of blockchain and cryptocurrency out there at the moment, the real success of Bitcoin and you know why, why it's done so well. Really is that fundamental properties of security and decentralization of the network. And really the fact that anyone anywhere around the world can essentially run a node, you know, they can do that totally permissionless. They can send transactions, they can do anything and interact with the network in any way, in a permissionless way. And that permissionless is the result of the decentralization of the network. And also, you know, of course, Bitcoin has essentially never been hacked, and never had any play or fatal flaws, and its security is extremely high. Now, probably anyone who's critical of Bitcoin, I'm probably going to be criticizing you on that scalability aspect of the network. So, yes, the the network essentially doesn't scale, right. The more nodes you add into the network, the more computer power hash rate you have on the network, that doesn't increase the scalability. It doesn't you know, it doesn't solve that issue per se. And yeah, it's exactly right. And also bandwidth and all that type of stuff. So the if you then look at, you know, the iterative projects that came off the Bitcoin, a lot of that focus was about how do we kind of solve that that part of Bitcoin, right? How do we solve this scalability issue? And how do we increase you know, transactions per second and allow to have, you know, usable applications such as, you know, decentralized exchanges, and all these things that require extremely high transactions per second to operate effectively, right. So what you saw generally, with these projects that came in trying to solve this challenge was that that they would compromise on the permissionless and the decentralized aspects of the network in order to achieve scalability. So a good example of this is something like EOS or a similar type of network that implemented a different consensus algorithm like proof of stake or delegated proof of stake. And what they basically did was saying like, let's reduce the number With nodes that can be on the network, and let's put requirements on those nodes, which will allow us to have high transactions and basically achieve more scalability to the network. But of course, the challenge there is that by doing that you're losing this decentralization aspect of the network, right? If you on a network that has a restriction for who can be a node, and what are the requirements to be a node in terms of the the power of that node and computing power, etc, and all those types of aspects. Already, you've created a non permissionless network, right? So it's now permissioned to a degree, and no one can come in and run that node to validate transactions, etc, etc. So you've kind of compromised on on what fundamentally makes Bitcoin and cryptocurrency so attractive in the first place. And really, that is the kind of foundation of what the scalability trilemma is that you can't really achieve all three you have to compromise in certain areas. So Come to nervous we very much see you know, these this this high decentralization high security of Bitcoin as an as a, you know, a fundamental requirement of a network. So really when we think about how do we solve the scale, the scale scale scalability challenges here, what we do is we say, Okay, well, we need to have this fundamental, highly decentralized, highly secure layer one network. And what we'll do is we'll create these layer two solutions that essentially sit on top of this, this layer one, and can can interact with that layer one, but on this layer two, you can start to make compromises about decentralization to allow that that scalability to happen. So a good example of this and something that they're doing with Bitcoin is the lightning network. So essentially on the lightning network, it allows you to basically peg Bitcoin out of the the fundamental layer one network and allow you to transact Bitcoin, pretty much at an unlimited speed. You know, with people that you're connected to, but you're compromising a little bit there on the decentralization aspect of that, and you do need to somewhat rely on, you know, potentially centralized parties in some aspects, for example, with regards to watchtowers and all that sort of stuff. So, um, so yeah, so notice takes a very simple approach. And what we're trying to do is, is essentially create scalability on the layer two above that layer one, and we will, we're doing that in many different ways, including payment channels, and several other different kind of avenues that we're exploring. We have things like that I briefly mentioned, the Muta framework, which is a essentially a blockchain platform, a blockchain network, which you can deploy, anyone can deploy and you can use a customized consensus algorithm like proof of stake like delegated proof of stake, but ultimately, you can peg that back into the layer one right into that highly decentralized layer one of nervous, which basically means that you can have, you know, as a highly scalable network as scalable as you want. You can compromise a little bit there on decentralization, but ultimately, any user of that network when they want and require that high decentralization and high security aspects, they can essentially just peg it back onto the layer one. So it basically gives you that flexibility. And you can you can apply, which kind of aspects you need in which sort of situations.

Jonathan caras :

Got it? And are there, it seems, from following the project, that there's multiple layer twos that are currently in development, is that correct?

Ben Waters :

That's correct. I mean, our approach here is that, you know, we don't say or assume that we know the perfect answer for for what should be on the layer two and what needs to be developed. So we take a very broad approach where we want to Explore anything and everything. This comes a bit back to the kind of community aspect where we very much encourage all community developers to come in experiment, try different things out. And the core dev team is also doing the same thing. So, yes, there may be some overlap there. But I think, you know, we want to be very, very comprehensive and exploring all the all the possibilities for layer two.

Jonathan caras :

Yeah, the you know, before we started recording this podcast, when we were just chatting, I asked you the question about where, where does competition with a theorem fit into this, this whole narrative because there's many in the crypto community that are entirely focused on a theorem and they see that that's where all the action is happening. And you actually had a great response, which I'd love to get into a little bit more now, which was that a theorem hasn't been able to as much success as its head. It has not been able to create a service that, that I don't even remember the language that you use, but it was spot on is that a theorem essentially has been able to create products to cater to a theorem developers, or it's a very insular community. I'd love to hear your thoughts about kind of where the vision is here what your thoughts are about the current state of smart contract blockchains in the you know, the current landscape, and then really, how nervous is differentiating itself in terms of where the goalpost is, it's are we trying to build for these you know, like you mentioned earlier in the in the call these a few thousand or update it 10,000 20,000 crypto native people or are we trying to build something else?

Ben Waters :

Yeah, um, you know, I don't want to be too critical on aetherium But I do think it's a little bit false to, you know, assume that a theorem has essentially won won the battle here, right for smart contract platforms. I would say outside of Bitcoin there isn't really any network that's been very successful in terms of getting real user adoption. You know, we can look at a theorem today. And I mean, just over the last few months, I suppose there's been this big, big kind of hype generated around a lot of the defy stuff going on, right. I mean, the first thing I'd say is that since then, I think we spent at least three or four serious hacks happen on the Ethereum network and people, in some cases losing funds from that. We're also seeing I think, as is happening right now, today, you know, transaction fees on a theorem are pretty much, you know, sky high and almost unworkable and unusable. I was just seeing someone complaining about too hundred dollar therapies. So I think to assume that kind of a theorems one race, I think is a bit short sighted. We're yet to see any real kind of end user mass adoption for any product there. I would say that's true for the space in general outside of Bitcoin, which, which you could argue has that kind of store value and use case. So yeah, I mean, I mean, coming to the nervous,

Unknown Speaker :

you know,

Ben Waters :

I think people kind of tend to basket a lot of these projects, these smart contract platforms in the same basket, where I would actually say that nervous is much more similar to Bitcoin, then a theorem in many, many respects. And that's going to be even more true in the future with a theorem moving to proof of stake and all the plans they have for a theorem as well. So So, a cerium you know, coming up the Bitcoin had this idea to essentially create this world computer, right? Where where, you know, code could be executed on all these nodes, and basically have this kind of, you know, this world computer working together. So, so nervous takes a different approach. And actually, we follow much more on the side of Bitcoin where it's all about verification. Okay, so the Nova ckp, the layer one is all about verification of code being executed. So it's not about all of the nodes on the network running the same piece of code together and making sure they come to an output, right? It's more that as long as the code is executed, and the inputs and the outputs are correct, then you know that that transaction, that piece of code can be added to the blockchain and extended. So there's many different aspects we could go into about that and the differences between Novus and aetherium. And essentially, you know why nervous is much more suited for these kind of end user applications. I mean, we touched a couple on on a few already. But I think we're starting to see some of the limitations and the challenges on a theorem. And, you know, I speak to developers almost every day. And you know, there are a lot of frustrations in terms of those types of aspects. So

Jonathan caras :

degrade,

Ben Waters :

don't know if that kind of answers to that yet.

Jonathan caras :

Absolutely. And, and to be clear, I'm a huge fan of that theory. Um, I've been a user now for for three years. The current state of gas prices does definitely bummed me out. But one of the things that I, you know, I think that you described it very well is that we haven't we, as a crypto community haven't really been able to create something that that's really ready for primetime. We're ready for for people that are not crypto nerds. So Gabriel, I know that you've put a lot of thoughts into this and about, I know that you have some questions about about community and growth. So passing the microphone over to.

Unknown Speaker :

Thanks. Yeah. So I mean, I think you were kind of just touching on it. But, you know, Jonathan asked, what, where do you see nervos in a year from now, I want to ask, you know, even bigger picture like 510 years, what is like a dream scenario? What, what are people doing with nervos? How are they using it? What type of applications are they using? You know, if everything goes goes? Well?

Ben Waters :

Yeah, I think that's, it's a very valid question, but it's quite a difficult question as well. Partly because, you know, as the nervous Foundation, we don't want to be kind of directing or coercing the direction of the network. We actually feel that of course as an open source project. It should be free to kind of evolve and develop in many different Ways to edit and in any way possible. I think if you talk to people who were involved in Bitcoin, you know, very early on, they would have never kind of been able to predict necessarily where it is now. And I think that there's a positive there, right? Because the the network needs to be able to adapt and evolve over time and respond to, you know, outside influences. And, and, and that type of thing. Having said that, you know, of course, you know, we very much want to see none of us have high adoption. First, we see that starting off with developers, so you know, we really want to see a very large developer community, continue to grow around nervous and really, a lot of that evolution in terms of its long term direction will come from that right from that community developers what they decide, is relevant to build what they think is going to get user adoption and traction. So I feel that it will evolve in that kind of, you know, organic sort of kind of somewhat chaotic way perhaps. But yeah, I mean, you know, this is my personal opinion on this but I kind of see a future where you have you know, Bitcoin being this this very strong store of value, you have nervous being essentially the the multi asset kind of token which is used for getting stable coins interacting with that and all those sorts of things. And, you know, in a perfect world, then that's essentially what you have, you know, at the end of the day, but really, I mean, it comes down to adoption, use cases, real world applications of the technology that's being built on top of nervous and just the growth of the community as a whole.

Unknown Speaker :

Okay, yeah, that that definitely makes sense. So, you know, on on the topic of community growth, like what are you doing to attract, you know, maybe end users or developers right now, what are the strategies that you're looking to employ? Like, what is the vision or marketing the nervos? product?

Ben Waters :

Yeah, so you know, there's this. It's a bit of a chicken and egg challenge you have in the blockchain space where, you know, you want to bring in developers, okay, because you need these developers to build out the kind of end user applications. But developers, they want to come and build where you have a lot of users, right. And the users, they want to come in, where there's a lot of stuff being built. So you kind of have a chicken and egg situation. And the strategy that we use at Novartis is to focus first on the developers. So what we want to do is we want to bring in really high quality, motivated developers to build on top of no loss and to create those kind of use cases to create those proof of concepts and really show off You know, the uniqueness and the power and the flexibility of what you can do on nervous that you can't do on any other platform. And through that will then be able to create, you know, these cool products, these awesome examples and really showcase the power of nervous, which is much easier to show to a normal non technical user than it is to try and explain, you know, the ins and outs of the tech and and why it's superior to other platforms. Right. So So, you know, the short term strategy here is to focus very much on the developer community. And we have several initiatives, you know, to to achieve that one I think I've already mentioned is our extensive grant program. So our infrastructure grants, launched about six months ago now I think, and since then, we've awarded over 1,000,001 and a half million dollars of ground prizes. So we've got some really, really interesting projects being built. Currently, there are several different types of projects included in that including even some kind of developer tools and things like that, to further increase the onboarding of new developers. We recently launched our incubator program called ck labs. So that's a, it's similar in some ways to the grants program. But it's very much focused on end user applications and building that fit that that business model on top of no loss. So there's some really exciting projects that I think is going to be announced very shortly in that program as well. We're working on our hackathon plan and we actually see, you know, putting on these these large hackathons bringing in developer communities and incentivizing people to get involved and bring them to build on nervous is also a great strategy here. And we're hoping to kind of roll these out, indefinitely going forward and is a great way to bring People in getting them on boarded up to speed with with no loss and what you can do and then you know, maybe some of these guys or these projects or ideas will then move into, you know, the grants program or the ck labs or something similar.

Jonathan caras :

Can you talk a little bit more about the hackathon? What would be the prerequisites? If some, if somebody was interested, first of all, how do they find out more information or how to apply? And then also, what are the what's the skills, backgrounds? experience that you'd like to see for your ideal candidate for the hackathon?

Ben Waters :

Yeah, so there's quite a lot of work going on about planning for some hackathons. Currently, we're actually just about to run a bit of a trial hackathon. And that's going to just have a small number of teams and will almost be like that, that first round that that kind of practice from the first thing I'd say is that, you know, I think hackathons in terms of scope can be very broad and they don't even have to be like purely technical, right? So I think you can have, depending on, you know, the type of project, the team that you want to build, you can have very diverse skill sets within the teams, right? You could have designers and all these different things. So I think there's a lot of cool kind of opportunities for people with all different skill sets to collaborate in these public large scale hackathons that we're hopefully planning for the future. But, you know, one of the biggest challenges and one of the reasons why you know, we're we're still waiting to ramp up this initiative is because it is quite difficult for people to come in and build on nervous currently. So you know, there's still a lot of work going on around documentation and tutorials and all this sort of stuff, which is just keep going and going and growing over time. But I would say, you know, for for any potential people interested in joining the hackathon, I would just say come and get involved in the community. You know, start reading up on the documentation, you know, run a node, play around with the code, come in and chat with the devs and just go As much as you want, and you know, I think that should get you kind of set up. And one of the one of the key parts that we're actually talking about at the moment is that kind of onboarding course, for potential people that want to join the hackathon. So not only will we have the hackathon, but we will have workshops, code jams, office hours, as well as kind of open discussion and support calls as well to really help that onboarding process to get people set up and ready to join the hackathon. So I would say if you've got experience and understanding of blockchain, generally, and you have some development skills and are interested in learning, then you can definitely be part of the hackathon. You just probably have to go through a bit of the onboarding process prior to it.

Jonathan caras :

That's great. Gabriel, you have other questions you want to ask?

Unknown Speaker :

Yeah, you spoke a lot about, you know, I mean, you kind of touched on this earlier, but you're it seems like there's a lot of focus on that. The developer side. Is there any anything else that you are doing for the end users? You know, I know it's kind of a chicken and egg. But is there any projects that you think could help attract them or that you're working on or that you're planning, planning to work on?

Ben Waters :

Yeah, so I touched on the ground probe program, and actually the the current grants that aren't going to these infrastructure grants, which are just a subsection of the grants program. So the next subsection of the grants program to launch the community and marketing grounds. So we have a there's one project already ongoing. And you know, we're looking to kind of expand this, which basically allows anyone who wants to contribute to the community and marketing side for the project, to come in, pitch their idea and potentially receive funding to go out and execute those ideas. So that's one way to try and you know, engage the community and help them contribute to the growth of the network. We have many kind of, I guess initiatives and and, and awareness building kind of drives, including, you know, collaboration and partnerships with other projects and ama's, and interviews and all these sorts of things. But ultimately, if we're talking about end users, right, then then really, you know, the, we're still we still need to be developing out those end user applications, right to then start the the drive for the user acquisition. And really, at the moment, it's kind of the, let's say, the kind of like hardcore community fans who support the project and contribute to the community and make it such a, you know, an awesome community to be part of. Those are the guys that you know, here until we start to have the big rollout for the end user dry.

Jonathan caras :

That's great. So we're almost at a time now. I'm curious. There's there was a 200 other announcements that happened recently one about the the BSN if you could talk about that. And then two was a collaboration with the green team

Ben Waters :

yes so the the the BSN announcement that came out recently is something obviously we're we're super excited about BSN is a very very interesting project, which essentially is lowering the barrier for blockchain development. So essentially anyone is going to be able to access the these nodes that BSN construct and and it's going to reduce fees for developers who want to come in and build into play apps and all these sort of things. So we see it as a super exciting project to be part of, and we really think it's going to help us you know, get that advantage in terms of developer adoption and general adoption going forward as well. For the the the green announcement, again, something we're super excited about, in fact, the the very, very interesting thing about green is is of course the the member wimble protocol, right, and basically how they achieve the the privacy technology on green. And that's something that, you know, of course, we were super interested about, and how we can bring privacy solutions on the nervous. So what we did is we've made a donation to the green community to essentially further their, their research and development on that side of things. And I think the long term kind of plan here is to kind of explore not only how we can collaborate more with the with the grid project and the developer community that have there, but also the potential of potentially taking some of that learning and research and development and seeing how it can apply to us as well.

Jonathan caras :

Yeah, super exciting. I think that the having a private centric state coin with a decentralized exchange to be able to send in the to be able to trade back and forth between ck B and some type of pegged whether it's pegged to the US dollar or peg to the one that with the level of privacy opens up real payment, like real world payment. For use cases where a business a business might not be interested in having all of their financials just publicly available. So I think that there's there's a lot of really interesting stuff happening there.

Ben Waters :

Yeah, I totally agree. I think privacy of course, is is really a fundamental aspect of all this sort of stuff, right. I don't think anyone would be happy having their, you know, personal bank accounts, open and public, for anyone to come in and look at And I think, you know, that's something obviously, Bitcoin is is very focused on and very aware of. And I do think privacy is a super important part that really hasn't been implemented to successfully yet. I think when you when you then start to look at stable coins and privacy of stable coins, I think that's when things get super exciting. We talked about a theorem briefly earlier, right. And of course, you know, the biggest use case for a theorem currently is for stable coins. But I think you'll find anyone who has used stable coins on a theorem. They know that because of the account model, you basically have zero privacy when you're using stable coins, and they all go to the same address and you have this fundamental issue of address reuse on the Ethereum network. You also have another challenge on a theorem where you can't use stable coins in theory without holding it theorem itself. What you'll see on nervous is the potential to pay for transaction fees using the the native, the actual stable coin, which will allow you to have this, you know, extremely effective and fluid and easy to use system, just like you would be using your credit card today without the requirements to, you know, buy another token to cover the fees, and then have these issues of address reuse and lack of privacy and etc. And all these sort of issues.

Jonathan caras :

Yeah, that's a lot of great stuff. So we're, we're, we're just about at a time now. So I want to thank you, Ben, for taking the time to chat with us. And we'll include some of the links that you mentioned, attached to the podcast here. And we would love to, you know, you and I actually talk on a regular basis, but I'd love to have an opportunity in a few months from now to bring you back on the show. And we can just do a catch up on how Some of these projects that we've spoken about today, what they're Look what they look like when they actually come to market.

Ben Waters :

Sounds great. Thanks for having me, Jonathan.

Jonathan caras :

All right. Have a good one. Take care. Cheers.