In this latest episode I talk to Natalyia Dell. I first met Natalyia in 2009 when working at the University of Birmingham and I’m lucky to have her as a friend. She talks candidly about her own experiences of being sensory, physically and neurologically impaired and the impact this has had on her education, career and everyday life. She has much to say on a range of issues including her experiences of disablism in the LGBT community when she first came out as well as the prevalence of biphobia within the LGBT community. She discusses what has driven her to be such a passionate and committed disability and LGBT activist and encourages us all to play our part no matter how large or small in the ongoing fight for true equality and justice for disabled and LGBT people. It was a true pleasure talking to her and I hope you enjoy listening as much as I did talking to her!
.
Please see below for links to some useful resources mentioned in the discussion:
Reasonable Access a charitable Deaf and Disabled People's organisation which seeks to educate and empower disabled people to assert and enforce our rights www.reasonableaccess.org.uk
BiCon www.bicon.org.uk
Care Work – Dreaming Disability Justice by Leah Lakshmi Piepzna-Samarasinha https://arsenalpulp.com/Books/C/Care-Work
In this latest episode I talk to Natalyia Dell. I first met Natalyia in 2009 when working at the University of Birmingham and I’m lucky to have her as a friend. She talks candidly about her own experiences of being sensory, physically and neurologically impaired and the impact this has had on her education, career and everyday life. She has much to say on a range of issues including her experiences of disablism in the LGBT community when she first came out as well as the prevalence of biphobia within the LGBT community. She discusses what has driven her to be such a passionate and committed disability and LGBT activist and encourages us all to play our part no matter how large or small in the ongoing fight for true equality and justice for disabled and LGBT people. It was a true pleasure talking to her and I hope you enjoy listening as much as I did talking to her!
.
Please see below for links to some useful resources mentioned in the discussion:
Reasonable Access a charitable Deaf and Disabled People's organisation which seeks to educate and empower disabled people to assert and enforce our rights www.reasonableaccess.org.uk
BiCon www.bicon.org.uk
Care Work – Dreaming Disability Justice by Leah Lakshmi Piepzna-Samarasinha https://arsenalpulp.com/Books/C/Care-Work
Hi, and welcome to the Simply Equality Podcast, the podcast that seeks to foreground the lived experiences of disabled and LGBT people. My name is Sarah Stephenson-Hunter. And I've got another fantastic episode lined up. I'll be speaking to Natalia Dell, who is a friend and former colleague of mine from my days of working at the University of Birmingham. Natalia really has been a great source of support and encouragement in my own particular journey over the past few years. And so it was really great to be able to speak to her. So as usual, I will stop my chitchat and we'll get on with the interview. So, on today's podcast, I've got a very, very special guest, somebody that I've known for coming... in fact it's over 10 years. I first knew her when I was working at the University of Birmingham. That person Natalia, Natalia Dell. Hello, how are you doing?
Natalia Dell:Hello, not bad thank you, and yourself?
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:Not too bad at all. I'm really pleased that you've agreed to do this podcast. I think without making you blush, Natalia, you've been quite instrumental in me thinking of doing this podcast. And we'll get on to this in a bit. But Natalia is one of those people that very much embodies what this podcast is about, that intersection of disability and LGBT identities. Oh, you're Natalia. You're currently living in Birmingham?
Natalia Dell:Yep.
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:And you have spent... well, you've done a variety of jobs in your life. Tell us tell us a bit more about that.
Natalia Dell:Um, yeah, so I was never one of these people who had a career, or knew what I wanted to do from when I was very young. I actually started doing a chemistry degree at university, and rapidly ran away screaming from the maths and the hexagons. The disability support wasn't ideal either. So I changed my degree somewhat rapidly to something called information management, which most people don't really know what it is, but it's kind of like librarianship crossed with computer science, with a bit of psychology. They don't usually offer it as an undergraduate. And in fact, they no longer offer it as an undergraduate where I studied. Um, so I left University in fact, right, okay, try and find a job then. And then I met the job centre. And I don't think you have to be too sarcastic about the job centre. People know how useless they are. And they literally didn't know what to do with me, because they told Deaf people to do manual jobs, and people with physical impairments to do call centre jobs, and they were like, but you have both, and we can't cope and our tiny little brains are going to explode now. And they literally said that to my face. And then they told me that I was unemployable at the age of 24, which was hilarious and painful at the same time. Um, so I mostly ignored them and applied for various jobs. But I had terrible trouble with employers sort of saying, oh, no, we can't do that, we have to treat everybody the same. And, you know, lots of stuff that I just didn't know was completely untrue. And keep your gob shut until you've got a contract and all that business. Um, I eventually managed to get a job in a library. But it ended up being only a couple of months, because they dicked me around waiting for Occupational Health for about four and a half months. So in the end a six month contract turned into three, and trying to get other jobs in the library service was definitely weird. You know, there were some people who clearly just didn't like me. And there were some other people who were great. But there were some people who just were very strange, and they wouldn't make adjustments. So there ended up being these really complicated, massive piles of faff, where somebody would go to stupid extremes to do something rather than give me a simple adjustment, or give me an email address, instead of making me phone, but whatever. Um, and then I had a couple of years of not so brilliant health, which I finally managed to wrangle, work out what was going on, put pieces together, get treated. And I actually got my first sort of proper job through hearing from a disabled friend. And it was a Scope, sort of graduate intern scheme. And it was based on the Bank of England's recruitment scheme. So the idea was that they creamed off the people that they thought were easy to integrate. And I think the original scheme idea was very good. They had a lot of really good ideas about giving disabled people the skills that we needed to survive in employment, with some employers that were willing to sort of mentor young disabled employees. And they used to put in a lot of time and effort, and by the time I came along, they tried to make money out of it. And you were never gonna make a lot of money out of a graduate intern scheme for disability. So I was placed with investment bank Lehman Brothers, which anyone who knows me will just boggle at, because I'm really not a corporate type. But you know, I did my seven months there. And although I felt like it was very exploitative, and I had a number of access issues, you know, they were very big about shouting about their ability to do access, but the actual walk wasn't there. And my management, particularly, were not brilliant. And so I got out of there, I got a new Scope mentor, who went, no, why are you in banking? That's ridiculous. That's totally not your thing. And then I went to work for Edexcel, the exam board, which I really enjoyed, much more up my street, much more, you know, it's about education, rather than making some guy money. And I have to say, you know, the Lehman Brothers, people on the whole were delightful. And, you know, they were very open minded to a very high number of things, just not my bag. And it was very obvious it wasn't my bag. Somebody approached me at a meeting once and said, you look like, you're a professor of Mediaeval Welsh, are you sure you're meant to be here? And it was totally a compliment, because that's what she looked like! So Edexcel was better, but I didn't have the energy to keep up with the workload, because it was a sort of place where you had to be full on all the time, and I just can't do that kind of full time work. And I eventually realised that London was breaking me so got the hell out of London, managed to get the job where you and I met.
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:Mmm.
Natalia Dell:And I actually applied for the job you went for, didn't get it.
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:Oh well!
Natalia Dell:Oh well, yeah, I didn't get it. That was all right. At least gave me preparation for the fact there'd be a million people on the interview panel, there's like four of them, or five of them. And it's like, whoa, too many people! And some of them were a little bit intimidating.
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:I don't know what you mean, Natalia.
Natalia Dell:No, not at all, not at all! So yes, I got the job. And I was very lucky to work with you. And I think what I found so good about working with you is you were someone who, like me, had been disabled for all or most of life, and had that experience of just living with other people's reactions to that. And you know, working out what I was doing, because there wasn't really any formal training in the junior disability advisor role. And the people who'd had my job before me had left a gap, for reasons beyond their control, but it meant I was trying to run around the university working out what's going on. And I remember following you a lot, and sort of sneaking into your consultations to steal ideas, which was extremely helpful.
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:You were a great colleague to work with.
Natalia Dell:Likewise, likewise.
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:We made a great team.
Natalia Dell:We did, we did. Um, you know, I was at Birmingham for eight years, so I was at Birmingham for longer than you were in the end. And, you know, they were such a good team to work with, and you know, things got a lot better than they had been to start with. You know, I left my job for Birmingham not entirely through my own choice, then the new building they moved us to wasn't accessible, it's this trend of building these modern buildings that win awards, but they're so solidly hideous. Just the visuals are a mess, the acoustics are a mess. There's no quiet spaces. And I'm noticing a lot of autistic people struggling similarly to me. But it wins awards, and it's eco.
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:Yeah, yeah.
Natalia Dell:That's what you get for cutting corners on building design as well.
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:Absolutely. So, obviously you've touched on your disabilities, your impairments there.
Natalia Dell:Yep.
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:For people listening to this, obviously, you have a hearing impairment. And you have some muscular skeletal issues and some neurological issues.
Natalia Dell:Oh yeah, I have them all.
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:Well, perhaps you could just tell us as much or as little as you want to about those and the impact it has on your day to day.
Natalia Dell:I think for me, I mean, my impairments are a result of an extremely rare syndrome. And I, being me, have the awkward presentation of it. So all the doctors go, are you sure you actually have that syndrome. It's like, we're not having this argument. I gave up having this argument 30 years ago, it's either the syndrome or it's not, I don't actually care. But it means that I have impairments that affect various different bits of my body. And each one on its own, could be seen as relatively insignificant, but the combination of different impairments... so I have balanced difficulties, but I also have an eye movement disorder that combines with balance difficulty to make my vision a bit of a mess. So my vision acuity is perfect, but what I actually see, I have learned in my 30s, it's not what you lot see, or at least most of the wealthy you're not the good example I wanted.
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:No, I'm not, no, nevermind.
Natalia Dell:For example, most sighted people, when they turn their head from side to side, they see a stable image, because there's balance systems in the brain that stabilise that, and I don't have that, which means for me to actually make sense of what I'm seeing, I have to kind of really concentrate, and it's kind of like a camera stabilisation system. So I actually see like a video camera. And it doesn't sound like a big deal, but actually that's very tiring for the brain, and I'm kind of bodging it a lot. I'm also getting to that point where I'm in my 40s, and if your bones and your joints aren't quite right, you start to get wear and tear problems. And I've been very lucky, my GP is brilliant. And there's a local Orthopaedic Hospital, but I've made a lot of them run away screaming[laughter]. Which, you know, is at least useful to know that I'm doing absolutely everything I can, because to some extent, living as a disabled person is a bit like playing a game. So I got moved from Disability Living Allowance to Personal Independence Payment about three years ago. And when they said they were making that change, I thought, yeah, they're gonna start dismissing people's evidence. And the more evidence you have, the better. And although it's very medical model, and it's not the game I want to play, I'd rather focus on making the world better. The reality is that if you've got the privilege of being able to get doctors to write stuff down, then do it, and that's what I did. So when it came to PIP time, I just battered them with evidence, which is my general approach to any of these systems. When I applied for DSA and disabled students allowance in 2015, I submitted eight separate pieces of evidence to prove it. Each one of my impairments was Equality Act compliant by duration and timeliness?
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:Wow.
Natalia Dell:Beacuse.... Oh, yeah. And, you know, I got everything I needed covered, because I wasn't messing about. And I had had that difficulty. I had to do something else with proving my disability, and I was dealing with a lawyer, and they were like, oh, and if you've got anything that proves you have - and I went, and the last letter, and she's just like, you're really good. I'm like, I know I'm good. But you know, it tells you something, that it's all about proving it and whose word is valid.
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:Hmm.
Natalia Dell:You know, I mean, my doctors are wonderful, but they are medical practitioners primarily. And medical practitioners have their own biases, you know, it's about what they can treat, and what they can help people manage. And surgeons, for example, if they can't cut it open and fix it, they're simply often not interested, because they're not trained to deal with the psychological impact on themselves, of not being able to make that person better. You know, I believe they've got good intentions, they want to make people's lives better. But if they can't cut you up and make it better, than they're like, uhhhh, I dunno what to do now. And you can literally watch them sort of get uuuuuh. And whereas, say, like physiotherapists and occupational therapists can be much more, okay, we can't fix it. But we might be able to make things better, we might be able to help you manage your lifestyle a lot better. And I think that kind of links in with my work with disability support, with disabled students, is, I can't necessarily change the impairment or condition. In fact, I have no control over their impairment or condition. But I can give them a perspective and say, this is the body you've got, we don't get to change that. And that's hard and grieve that if you need to, realistically think about how you can manage the world, and if you keep overdoing it, you're just going to burn out. If you keep, you know, doing things that you know, you have to control that because no other bugger's going to do it for you know.
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:No.
Natalia Dell:Whereas if you learn to say no, these are my boundaries, and my boundaries are here for a reason. Those boundaries about, you know, how much nonsense you will, won't put up with, how much flexibility you can give, it's about looking after yourself. And when I say self care, I don't mean you know, aromatherapy and hot baths. Great, if you like, but for me, self care is about looking after yourself and knowing or learning your own boundaries, identifying when you're struggling and going, okay, what do I need to do to fix this?
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:I mean, you're very confident woman, you're obviously speaking very confidently about that. But how hard a lesson has that been to learn throughout your life?
Natalia Dell:Been to learn? I think I'm still learning it.
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:Well, okay.
Natalia Dell:And I think it's a constant lesson. And I think that kind of links in with some of my activism. So a year and a half ago, two friends and I got together and set up a disability organisation, a charitable incorporated organisation, so it's a charitable company type thing. And our intent was to educate and empower disabled people to understand, assert, and enforce our legal rights. It's kind of our catchline. But part of that is about knowing your boundaries, because my two co trustees are wheelchair users. And every time they want to go into a shop with a step people are like, oh, can't we just push you up the step? And there's lots of reasons that's dangerous, it's a bad idea. And some wheelchair users will let people push them up steps. But I also know wheelchair users who've had spinal fractures when somebody has done that incompetently. So, you know, it's all about a balance of risks. But actually, I know one of my co trustees can get up some steps some of the time, on a good day. And it's a bit like okay, okay yeah. But it's about personal choices.
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:Mmm.
Natalia Dell:And one person's personal choice shouldn't be held against another person. You know, well my disabled friend can do it, why can't you?
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:Mmm.
Natalia Dell:And I think that applies across a lot of impairments, you know, you're compared to people who are in the public eye, you know, Tammy Grey Thompson does this why can't you? And actually in practice, she's fabulous. And you know, she's learned a lot in her old age, I think when she's realised that, you know, her experience wasn't universal. And if you're a young, fit, physically impaired person, that's a different state from being someone who has other issues. And you don't know what somebody's impairments are by looking at them. I mean, I have a mixture of visible and invisible impairments. And I find that my visible impairments are taken seriously. But my invisible ones aren't even though my invisible ones can be more disabling.
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:Mmm.
Natalia Dell:But it's also about convenience. So as soon as I say, well no, actually, I can't do that, they're like, well, why not? You know, I don't handwrite very well, the number of times I'm given a form, well can't you get someone's out with- no, actually. And so it's been learning the hard way. So you say about confidence and learning the lesson, some of it has been learning more about what my legal rights actually are. And the enforcement of the law is an absolute ass. The law is a mess. It's better than not having it. But it's very, very hard to enforce. And it's about teaching people the strategies of persistence, persistence, persistence, but also those social skills of how hard do you push. And that's an ongoing lesson. Because if you push, even though you might be legally in the right, if you annoy somebody you're gonna have a long term relationship with, you've got to live with that impact. But the downside is, if you don't fight for your rights, people don't think you have the access needs that you have. And they don't make the changes that are needed.
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:Mm hmm.
Natalia Dell:And I try to be one of those people who says, well, no, actually, if you want to include disabled people, that means taking us as we are. You know, that means making those changes.
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:Yeah. That's exhausting, though, isn't it?
Natalia Dell:Absolutely, utterly exhausting.
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:Yeah.
Natalia Dell:And it's endless. And if you talk to most people who you think of as being really assertive and good at this, all of us will have the fights we don't have. All of us will have, you know what, these are the cases I don't take, I don't take captioning cases, about videos, cinemas and DVDs and that, I just can't face it. It's just too annoying. I'drather not watch the film. I don't care enough about the film to watch it. If it isn't captioned, then stuff it.
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:Mm hmm.
Natalia Dell:Whereas I know people who will take you know, one kind of case and not another, and that you lose your privacy. You know, you have difficulty accessing, say, accessible toilets. Suddenly, everybody wants to know how you go to the toilet.
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:Mmm hmm.
Natalia Dell:Because obviously, if you need an accessible toilet, we're going to start going, why do you need an accessible toilet? We want to know all the really personal details on how you use the toilet, and then you lose your right of privacy as a disabled person, you're expected to tell people all sorts of stuff about your life that is quite frankly, none of their business. And one of the questions I wonder is, you know, talking to, you know, trans and gender non conforming people, is whether that's quite similar, you know, there's intrusive disability questions, and intrusive questions about your gender identity or what your body is or doesn't do, or...
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:Well, yeah, they are similar. Yeah, they are definitely similar. Definitely similar. So yeah. Um, how much would you say that you're, I mean, you mentioned before that, you know, you were working in a bank. Or, you know, corporate company and somebody said you look like, what was it, a Welsh professor?
Natalia Dell:Yeah, a professor of mediaeval Welsh. Wonderful. Very tweedy. This makes me think I should get somebody to describe to me how you look, Natalia. But nevermind, that's for another occasion. How was - I was actually wearing the proper suit type arrangement.
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:Wow.
Natalia Dell:But I wasn't wearing the classic female version of that, which is a small skirt and the big heels and the tight... you know, I was wearing a trouser suit. I was about as dressed down as I could get away with, and there was nothing wrong with the way I dress, that certainly wasn't a criticism.
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:No.
Natalia Dell:But I didn't look like I fitted into that very high business, formal....
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:Yeah, I would never see you as that high business formal setting.
Natalia Dell:But I've always worn a suit work. So when we worked together I used to wear, you know, smart black trousers and you know, a top and a jacket. I used to get commented on sometimes, you know, you dress very formally, and I went, yeah, but I look really young. And so when I started working at the place you and I worked together, well I was 28, but I frequently got mistaken for being in my very early 20s. Certain people would treat me like I was a child, and therefore if I was wearing a suit, it kind of added to that, and some of the scruffiness is my impairments, I think, because my arms are different lengths, I'm a bit wonky looking, I walk funny.
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:Yeah.
Natalia Dell:And some of that I think is just my natural personality. I blame my mother. She's as scruffy as I am[laughter]. And I think is that thing where your body doesn't conform to the society norms. How do you play that game?
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:Mm hmm.
Natalia Dell:And I certainly, I work as a DSA needs assessor now. And I still have the suit. I just don't wear the jacket. Because my view is that if I overdress, I put the students off.
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:Mm hmm. Mm hmm.
Natalia Dell:My own DSA needs assessor wore jeans and a checked suit, but she's an older woman who looks neat and tidy. And she's naturally one of those neat people. So I think she could get away with that. So she was dressing down to put people at ease.
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:Yep.
Natalia Dell:And it's always those messages that you're giving people and what they're reading into it.
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:Absolutely. I mean, how, how much... I mean, going back to your career and employment, how much do you think your disability, and in your experiences in that area have shaped your career progression?
Natalia Dell:Oh, hugely. You know, I've had to leave more than one job because it just wasn't accessible. Um, I struggle with getting employers to recognise less than full time working hours as valid or even possible. You know, I very clearly have experienced large amounts of disability discrimination in the recruitment process. I don't make sense if I don't disclose in my application and CV, you know, yes, I was mainstreamed. But you know, my experience of life is shaped by my impairment, I don't handwrite so I had a computer at school in the 80s. When no one had a computer, nobody knew how a computer worked. So I had to learn how it worked. I can sell that as a positive point in my assistive technology roles. You know, I've been reading this stuff since 30 odd years, you know, you learn how to tech support, you learn how to troubleshoot, you learn how to teach people how to do it. But that's also a negative at times, you know, that can be held against me. And, you know, it is one of those things where some of the time you've got a strong sense of proof, and some of the time, you don't have a sense of proof. You know, if they don't want to make adjustments, employers have several ways in which they can do that and still, you know... Or they'll be really blatant, because they know that most people don't know their rights and the law. So imagine their shock when somebody does actually know their rights and enforces it. Always hilarious.
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:Absolutely.
Natalia Dell:So yes, hugely shaped, and continues to be shaped, I think. You know, the pandemic is resulting in disabled people being disproportionately affected, and we're more likely to be in underemployed, we're more likely to be in precarious roles, you know, and I think that continues.
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:And, and the rates of unemployment with disabled people and underemployment are just immense aren't they?
Natalia Dell:It's staggering. And it's always astonishing, what adjustments upset employers and what don't, I mean, some surprised me by being very flexible and very open minded. And others, it's things like, oh, well, if you can't use a phone, you can't do this job at all, even though it's less than 20% of the job, and, you know, worked at the library service, and I was turned down for other library jobs because I couldn't use the phone. And yet, in my library, they were delighted because I knew how to use the computer. So they said, well if we use the phone, and you do extra computer work, everybody wins.
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:Mmmm.
Natalia Dell:And I was teaching other people how to use a computer. You know, come stand next to me while I troubleshoot this problem and so you can learn. Same at my Birmingham job, you know, I was the one that made I.T. services very happy, because I taught people how to use their computers, and write error messages down, and give sensible requests to I.T. services, so they weren't just my computer doesn't work flap flap flap. It was, I was doing this, this is the message I got, this is you know what I did to fix it. Um, so you know, I think it's recognising those other skills.
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:Quite an activist, that's how I know you. How do you self - how do you keep yourself going with that activism that we've mentioned before, how frustrating and tiring is, how do you keep going?
Natalia Dell:It's hard to say. I mean, I think some of it is, I've always been the type of person to do things. And I kind of blame my parents for that. Because my parents were, when I was growing up, quite serious Christians. And although I'm not religious at all, my parents were the people who are always last to leave after church with the teas and coffees, because they were tidying up. My dad did washing up because then he didn't have to talk to people. But you know, they made things happen. This thing needs doing, well, let's make it get done. So I grew up in the mentality of if you want change, you have to be the change that you want to see. And you know, my my dad's mom, very similarly, she did a lot of homelessness activism in the 70s. She did Greenham Common in the 80s, I'm so jealous...
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:Wow.
Natalia Dell:I know, she was a cracker of a woman.
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:Excellent.
Natalia Dell:And so my activism was often just seeing things that needed doing, and that kind of crosses over my disability and LGBT experience. So when I first came out and was exploring like, you know, the LGBT youth scene in those days, it was mostly LGB. We haven't really got to grips with T yet. We weren't quite ready to admit that you were fully part of our community, dammit [laughter]. And I found a lot of the lesbian and gay and bisexuals were, you know, going out and do a lot of hassle, still are to some extent. And I was treated really badly at lesbian and gay youth groups. You know, people would just blank me, people wouldn't talk to me.
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:Really....
Natalia Dell:I was made really, really unwelcome. And my friend who accompanied me the first time was horrified because he'd been there a few more times. And he said every time he'd gone on his own, they were fine. But when I went with him, and then I went with my then boyfriend, people were just nasty, and made no effort at all, and wouldn't speak clearly, wouldn't repeat themselves wouldn't look at me. And it was really obvious. And then I, we - there was a bi youth group that my ex and I went to, we went to our first BiCon in 1999, in Edinburgh. And we travelled a very long way. And there was a complete cluster around our bookings. But you know, BiCon solved it, and there was visible disabled people, that was the thing that really struck me, I saw people wearing hearing aids or saw people using mobility aids, wheelchair sticks. And being disabled was just normal and ordinary, and people treated you like a person, and you weren't treated like this sort of outcast with crip cooties [laughter]. And that was a real eye opener for me. So you know, the bi community that I came across just happened to be very disability friendly, very neurodiversity friendly, just by default of the people that got involved with it. So my first workshop, you know, I went to a BSL workshop, and met my friend, Hessie, and she also learned sign language, she's partially Deaf. And we have quite a similar experience of being partially Deaf, although our deafness are quite different. And so meeting people I could relate to was really important. But I haven't found that in what I would consider the mainstream or the funded LGBT scene.
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:Mmmm.
Natalia Dell:Um, so my activism sort of started out at things like university, I didn't like the way that there were certain access issues. So I went around asking people questions and shaking hands with people and saying, you know, what's going on? How do you do it? What do you do? Got myself elected as a disabled students officer, because I discovered our Union's constitution allowed for such, I was on the LGB committee, and I learned a lot about union policymaking on the LGB committee, and therefore I was able to translate that across. And, you know, you saw that some people were just quietly getting on with making things accessible. So the students shop would let the blind people know when there was going to be a change of layout and say, let us know, and we'll show you around when we've done it, or we'll show you around when it's closed. And they did little things like that, but they never told anybody. You know, why wasn't that advertised? I want to advertise for everybody, rather than just the people that got recognised as being blind, if you know what I mean. And so I did things like that. And then I joined my first BiCon team in 2004. And part of that was I did access, because I had knowledge from personal experience and what I've done at university, and I very quickly identified that our venue hire wasn't going to be appropriate. It basically segregated wheelchair users at the back of the room and I went nah. That's not - No. That's not okay. Just no. And my team leader just went, yep, I agree. And we said to the venue, nah, and the venue went, oh, okay. And they agreed to let us have slightly more expensive venue space for the same price that the original venue space would have cost, which I now know was more or less the legal requirement. But they did it very quickly, once we'd flagged the issue. So I learned very quickly that if you tell people, some people will just go oh, okay. And then I learned a lot about event organising from that, and I did several years of running BiCons, and organising BiCons. And I guess it's, you know, finding your community, as much as things that need doing, you know, it's as much the people you meet, and that - people you learn from, and that you don't need permission. Don't sit and wait to be asked. Say, I think this thing needs doing, and I'd like to do it. Does anybody want to help me?
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:Mmm.
Natalia Dell:You know, I mean, I did a piece of activism a
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:Mmm.
Natalia Dell:And I was like, I don't have any funding. I've got couple of years ago, where the Information Commissioner was talking nonsense about text relay phone calls and data protection. And their reply to me was nonsense. And I was like, no, that's not good enough, not having that. So I emailed 25 Deaf organisations, and just went, did you know the Information Commissioner is doing this? This is a problem for these reasons, that's going to affect you for these reasons. Do you fancy joining me and going OI? And I got replies from some of them going cool, yep, here's my friend at OfCom, they will kick at the DW- at the ICO, sorry. And, you know, very quickly let the ICO know that Deaf people have contacts, they admitted that their initial reply to me was inadequate. And they very quickly came up with some guidance that was better. B t I also got some D af organisations going, oh, w don't have the funding to do hat. a computer, an internet connection, and I'm bolshie. But I think that we have to remember that everybody has the option to do something. And it doesn't have to be serious. It could be, I dunno, drawing pictures or sharing memes, or linking people up with each other. Or, you know, when somebody has a really bad time, just going, I'm really sorry, that sounds rubbish, you know, thinking of you, just letting people know that you're standing by them. You know, solidarity doesn't cost a lot. But having, you know, not asking permission. You said about energy, I do struggle, and I do less than I used to. And sometimes I don't get as much done as I'd like, you know, physical access is a little bit quiet at the moment for that reason, and we're hoping to pick it up again, a bit more. But it's - there's a wonderful book called Disability Justice and Care Work Disability Justice. It's written by a non binary woman of colour in the US, about how we don't have to organise on everyone else's terms. But you know, things take longer than you want them to take. Because being disabled, takes your life away. You know, you don't always have the money, you don't always have the mental health and wellbeing, and sometimes you have to take two weeks longer to do a thing. But that's okay. Just do the thing.
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:Yeah, it's so hard, isn't it? Because often, I think as disabled people, in particular, and sometimes LGBT people, you sort of feel like there's that extra pressure on you to prove yourself against the sort of heteronormative, non disabled standards.
Natalia Dell:I don't know if I do. It's an interesting question, I just want to think whether I have to prove myself. I don't feel it's so much about proving myself, it's more about being so cross that the work needs doing, I pretty much run on rage, I think. This thing needs doing, it's not good enough, therefore, I will make it get done. And sometimes recognising that there are gaps in things. And, you know, a lot of the things I do are not necessarily official, but you know, talking to younger people, and just a couple of DMs in the right place, you know, go on, keep with it, hang in there, you know, I'll back,you, come on I'll help you write the words, and trying to empower people to feel like they can stand up for themselves. Because it's a great feeling when you see somebody who's experienced the same barriers over and over and over again, and they learn a little bit, and next time they finally get the barrier not to be put in their way and they go, no, I'm not standing for that. Hopefully, they can start being more confident, more assertive, because the more of us that are confident and assert our rights, the less the norm will be that a disabled person just slinks off or the queer person just slinks
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:Mmmm. Mmmm. How much do you find that off. even people within those communities think ah, that's just Natalia being bolshie and sort of think no, no, what you should do is you gotta, you gotta work more positively with people.
Natalia Dell:I'm fortunate that by Bi community standards, the Bi community I'm part of, I'm probably one of the more tactful humans. Things used to be quite flamey. And I think we've worked really hard in recent years to be less shouty and more constructive. And so I'm lucky that in the Bi community that I'm part of that's less of an issue. I certainly had the why can't you be nicer from other places. And that's almost always from people who don't like what I have to say. And it's a really common deflection tactic. I can't remember whether we put it in the reasonable access thing, though. But I made a complaining crippled bingo, on Google Sites, of all the reactions that you get to asking for access, or complaining about poor access. And then I did a lot of work to turn that into a useful tool. So we turned it into a toolkit on reasonable access websites, where we've taken common reactions, and then tried to sort of link back to resources and suggestions for how people can challenge those reactions. So that, you know, if somebody says an adjustment's too expensive, well, okay, can we have your accounts, please? Oh, look, you earn 285 million pounds a year and you won't spend 100 quid? Not a chance mate.
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:Yeah.
Natalia Dell:And I think some of it is just knowing those little things to ask, and knowing that, yes, affordability is a legal excuse. But actually, you've got to be pretty poor before affordability kicks in, and lots of adjustments cost nothing. You know, I'm supporting someone at the moment who keeps being sent documents in completely inaccessible formats. And it's almost like this organisation, the people who work for it can see what they think it should look like visually, and they don't understand that the screen reader just can't read like that. And it's really obvious that it's not the frontline people's fault, but it's causing this massive barrier. And understandably, you know, this is why a lot of blind people just end up going, oh, I'll get my mate or my family to help me. But if you don't have friends and family that you trust with your personal information that's much more challenging. Um, a dear activist friend of mine, he lives alone. He's partially sighted and he doesn't have somebody. So just go and get someone to help isn't a good answer. I'm the same with the phone. I don't have anyone that hears well enough to use. So I'm really really cranky about it. But each of us picks our battles. And sometimes you just give in, because you've just fought me battles this week.
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:Absolutely.
Natalia Dell:But one of the nice things about some of the disability communities I'm part of, and I wouldn't say community singular, but multiple communities, is people are helping each other out. And quite often somebody will say, oh actually, you know what, it's five minute job for me to fix that thing. You let me fix that thing, and I'll help you out with your thing. And I've actually seen some really good, sort of, I'll fix that document for me, you phone that idiot for me, and it's not as good as access being provided, but it's disabled people doing that support for one another.
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:So obviously, we've touched a lot on the disability element. You already mentioned the fact that, you know, you were part of the, well, you are part of the LGBT community. And, I mean, you mentioned your experiences at that first youth group, but how have you found it over the years, you know, your - not so much acceptance, your experience of being both LGBT and disabled.
Natalia Dell:Um, I think I've been quite selective about which LGB spaces I go into. And some of that is because I find things like Prides and crowds incredibly difficult. I tried to go to a Birmingham pride, and Birmingham Pride is notoriously crowded, it used to be held in the city centre, which is very confined. I ended up falling, landing on my arse, because it was just too crowded, I couldn't stay upright. And I just thought, I'm not doing that again. And I haven't done it again since, you know, support the local Bi group, I'll be enthusiastic, but I'm like, I just can't do the day, it just isn't accessible. And I can't fight that fight right now. Um, so I'm quite picky. If it's not accessible to me, then there's a limit to how much effort I'm going to make to be involved with it. Um, and I think by acquiring social power in the BiCon organising community, we've be able to do that our own way. So you know, I've organised conventions and events with people where we did it all by email, text chat, and then the occasional, you know, phone call with people I can hear or whatever. And it might be, you know, I can't do phone today. I'm just too dead. So we do text, IM. But we've tried to work inclusively. And that's been really positive, because there's a lot of bi disabled people in that community, we've actually worked for people who said they've never had their access needs considered and net before. And they've realised they are capable of functioning, but perhaps not on other people's terms. So we work with someone who wasn't so great prior to the event, just wasn't able to stay engaged and focused, but actually, at the event itself, was amazing. And we were like, that's your skill set, you need a defined task. And they had some self reflection, we reflected, and they were like, yeah, this is what I know I can offer, and this is what I know I can't do. And now they know, their strengths and not-strengths. And they stick to it. And they're able to feel like they're a useful contributor to the community. And I think that's always really important, is, you don't have to be doing the big things. You know, the person that goes and buys a pot of coffee when you run out, or picks up some litter off the floor when it's in the way, is just as important. So I haven't had too much difficulty with disablism in the queer community, because I've just avoided parts of the queer community that aren't disability friendly. And most, I would say most of my queer friends are also disabled. But it doesn't always start that way. You know, like yourself, you know, I'm friends with quite a few people who are disabled, who we didn't necessarily know were queer for quite some time. And that never surprises me either these days. Does it not? No, you're never gonna surprise me. You really wanted me to be surprised when you came out to me, and I was just like, all right, right you are [laughter].
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:Yeah, for the listeners benefit, um, Natalia was one of the first people that I disclosed and discussed my issues around my gender identity. I think like lots of people Natalia, you probably thought I was going to say I was gay.
Natalia Dell:I had you down as I either thought you were LGBT or suicidal, were the two things I was worried and, and I was...
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:Oh, my gosh.
Natalia Dell:... you weren't suicidal. Or, you know, you were gonna tell me you had a terminal illness or something. But you know. So in a way, it was the good news.
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:Absolutely. But isn't that so interesting? Because obviously, you know, I've had - I have been disabled all my life with my own particular issues. I didn't realise I was trans until much later in life. And yet, the more I've intersected both these communities, the more people I've got to know, it's actually very more common than you think, for disabled people and queer people and vice versa to be, you know, within similar communities.
Natalia Dell:Yeah, and I don't know what that's about. I don't know whether that's, we see the people who've crossed those spaces. Or whether, you know, you're already kind of aware of differences, and fitting in or not fitting in. I mean, you know, some research would be really, really interesting, a lot of it to be honest. And I think part of it is I don't really care. And you know, the Bi community I come from is, tell us what your name is tell us what pronouns you want, the rest of it is up to you. And it's very laid back. Because it's none of our business, and we're not gonna try and convert anybody to be what they're not. And we don't believe we can. But we're also very happy to say, okay, you're experimenting with this name and pronoun, and that might be different next time. And that is also okay. You know, all of those are valid things. I think sometimes if you've got disability stuff, you can get very kind of caught up in trying to deal with the disability stuff, and the queer stuff, perhaps doesn't get a look in, I don't know. Um, and you know, there's generational things in there. There's class upbringing, there's exposure to you know, what is and isn't okay. But I mean I know your blog posts have been very, very helpful to a friend of mine in a very similar position to yourself. And I did actually point them at your posts when they came out to me.
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:Thank you.
Natalia Dell:And so you know, the differences that you make in other people's lives, you never know.
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:Mmmm. Mmm. Um, obviously, you're - you're sitting within a perspective of having, well, not carved out, but you know, of sitting within those respective communities quite reasonably well. Um, do you still think it's a big issue out there, though, in the wider communities?
Natalia Dell:Oh, absolutely. Um, you know, biphobia is still massive. Um, I don't hang around in those kind of spaces, because quite frankly, I can't be bothered with it. But I'm seeing people saying no, no, you know, compulsory heterosexuality means that we suddenly called bi women straight passing lesbians, and there's all sorts of really annoying, nasty debates that I just can't be bothered with, because it's just like oh, biphobia, right, screw you. And sometimes, sadly, biphobia is worse from the lesbian and gay community than it is from the straight community. And the mainstream media doesn't help. But there is a lot of toxic negativity about bi people, toxic messages, calling us breeders at Pride, and we still get a lot of abuse at Prides in a way that I think is completely unacceptable. Um, and I think there is still significant disablism within certainly mainstream LGBT community spaces, you know, a lot of venues aren't acessible, there's a lot of bad attitudes, you know, you'll hear the horror stories from people where, you know, the mobility aids are taken off them, or, you know, they're not allowed into a space, because they don't look cool enough. So, you know, I think it is still a significant issue. And I think sometimes those of us that do intersect both can sort of hideaway and not necessarily fight it, but I think there's also different ways to fight against. So I know Equality network in Scotland was going to do some project work on that before lockdown, obviously, things have changed a little bit, but there was conversations about, you know, evaluating LGBT mainstream spaces and seeing how accessible they are, looking at whether they can be changed or improved, encouraging people who have inaccessible venues to get funding for more accessible venues, and framing that as their public sector duties, and being more accessible to a wider range of people. Because quite often, when you complain about lack of disability access, they say, well, we've never had disabled people trying to come there. And it's like, yeah, you don't see the people that aren't in the room, because they're not in the room. And I think the same applies to some of the, you know, the racism stuff, is that a lot of people of colour, don't feel welcome in certain spaces, because they're othered, and they're both hyper-visible and invisible at the same time. And why would you go back when you're made to feel unwelcome? And you know, I don't think any community is innocent of that. And I think we've all got work that we can do. You know, it's like the disabilitytoowhite hashtag. I think you can also have, you know, LGBTtoowhite.
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:Mmm. I mean, here we are 2020. How do you feel about the state of that element of equality generally? Are you optimistic? Are you positive, or you just don't care, I'm just getting on with it?
Natalia Dell:I think that we have to be careful that we don't lose gains. I'm concerned about the transphobia out there. I'm well aware and have been for some time that, you know, trans people are the weakest link that could be attacked to attack all of us. And we're already seeing an increase in homophobic attacks on the back of the transphobic attacks. And it starts being used as part of a wider challenge. So I am quite concerned about that, because rights that are given can also be taken away. And I think [Ree Kunt?] summed that up very, very well and we should never be complacent. And we should also maintain an awareness of what's going on in the rest of the world. You know, think places like Poland, Hungary, you know, even the USA, you know, the USA got formally put on lists as being unfriendly, and I must admit I wouldn't go to USA. I may be cis, but I'm not keen on the whole place
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:No, me neither. Um, so I think we have to keep actively fighting fo our rights. And I think we ha e to try and be intersectional hile we do so, because w thout everybody in the room, no ody's in the room really. And I think we have to examine ourselv s for the people that we're m ssing. And we have to, you know, create space for people. Um, yo know, mentor young people of olour, young people who are dis dvantaged, and, you know, keep p oviding that spot. I think thing are better. But I don't think e can assume that they're oing to Yeah, that's fantastic. Just finally, I mean, we've said how much hard work this is. What do you do, Natalia, to sustain yourself?
Natalia Dell:I'm not sure I do[laughter].
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:Apart from ots of tea...
Natalia Dell:Large amounts of tea very, very large amounts of tea.
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:Yep.
Natalia Dell:I think for me, it seemed that the young people do stuff. And the lessons that were really hard learned for us because we had to pick them up as we carried on, the young people have picked up a lot of that by osmosis, because it's normal, ordinary for them. And so I think rather than criticising young people for being ungrateful, or not understanding how hard we had it, yada yada, yada, actually, really focusing on supporting young people. Um, Christine Burns is an activist I see do this really well. She's wonderful to the next generation of young trans activists, very kind, very non judgmental, you know, she's not afraid to say this is the work I did. And this is the legwork I did. But she's also very quick to boost other people, and she says, you know, here's the step up, you need to take this forward, I can't keep doing all the work. You know, she's still there, she's still doing stuff. But she will just as often when asked to talk, say no, you don't want to speak to me, you want to speak to someone of the next generation, and start naming new generation names. And I think that's really important. And I'm really impressed by some of the younger disabled people. Um, it's a shame that some of the things that were rubbish when I was a school kid are still rubbish. But I think we need to support our successes. And we need to create communities where we're not divided, don't let them divide us. And you know, take time out, take rest, work out what nourishes you, have your friends, have people that understand that if you pick a fight, that fight might cost you, and that they know that when you're picking the fight, it's because you don't feel you've got any alternative, but also recognise that it's rubbish. And have you mates go, ohhh, these people such idiots.
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:Oh, Natalia, as ever, it's been a pleasure, an education. Um, it's uplifting. There's always so much more I could talk to you about, um, maybe I'll have to get you back another time. But for now, thank you, and just keep fighting. Yeah, absolutely. Likewise. So there you go. That's Natalia. As I'm sure you can appreciate, it was really great working with her. And I'm just really thankful to her for the time she spent on the podcast. I hope you've enjoyed, and I hope you'll be back for the next episode. Thank you and goodbye.