In this latest episode it is my great pleasure to speak to Robin Edwards, a good friend of mine from Nottingham. Robin talks openly and honestly about his experiences of being diagnosed as autistic and how he feels this did / didn't impact on his life, love and transition. We also talk about the apparent prevalence of people who are both LGBT+ and neurodiverse and why this might be along with comments on the specific challenges of being a trans man in the current social and political context. I first met Robin through my involvement in the Notts Trans hub https://nottstranshub.wordpress.com and it was really great to be able to have this opportunity to talk to him in more detail.
In this latest episode it is my great pleasure to speak to Robin Edwards, a good friend of mine from Nottingham. Robin talks openly and honestly about his experiences of being diagnosed as autistic and how he feels this did / didn't impact on his life, love and transition. We also talk about the apparent prevalence of people who are both LGBT+ and neurodiverse and why this might be along with comments on the specific challenges of being a trans man in the current social and political context. I first met Robin through my involvement in the Notts Trans hub https://nottstranshub.wordpress.com and it was really great to be able to have this opportunity to talk to him in more detail.
Hi, and welcome to another episode of the Simply Equality Podcast, a podcast that seeks to foreground the lived experiences of disabled and LGBT people. In this latest episode, I'm really delighted to have been able to speak to a friend of mine, Robin Edwards. Robin is a trans man from Nottingham, he talks about his transition journey, and also his more recent diagnosis of having Asperger's and how he feels that has or hasn't played a part in his journey. It's, as usual, a really interesting episode with lots of interesting perspectives and some of the main themes that touch on being disabled and LGBT. But don't just take my word for it. Off we go in a minute with the interview, sit back, enjoy, and I will be back at the end. So I'm really delighted on this episode of the podcast to have a good friend of mine, Robin Edwards. Robin, welcome to the podcast.
Robin Edwards:Hello, thank you.
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:For those who won't be aware , Robin and I know each other from the days when I lived in Nottingham, Robin still lives in Nottingham. And we were involved in a trans community group, which I'll let Robin talk about in a minute. But Robin, do you just want to go ahead and introduce yourself in any in any way you want to, to begin with?
Robin Edwards:Okay, and yes, I wish I'd prepared this. But anyway, so, as Sarah says, yes, we met through the Notts Trans Hub, which is a group that myself and a bunch of other people set up about six years ago, I think six, seven years ago. And yeah, you came along and were one of our good friends from from that group. I'm also... I do a little bit of singer songwriting.
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:What sort of style of music do you do?
Robin Edwards:Well, it always ends up coming out a little bit folky.
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:Okay.
Robin Edwards:So the intention, intention was probably sort of, I don't know, indie. Yeah, indie pop type stuff, but it just comes out as sort of folk.
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:Okay.
Robin Edwards:So, yeah.
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:Do you find that helpful, that sort of creative outlet?
Robin Edwards:Yeah, I think it is a nice way of sort of getting ideas out there. And I'm not very, I'm not - in fact, interestingly, we're doing a spoken interview. And I haven't had any questions in advance or anything, I haven't asked you. So, you know, my bad if that all goes wrong. But usually my... because I can take a bit of time to process thoughts, it is really good for me to be able to write things down and you know, write a kind of block of thought down into a kind of poem and then put that to music. And I've just always, I come from a musical family, so...
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:Fantastic. So you, you've touched on it there. I mean, this podcast is very much about the intersection of disability and LGBT issues. And I'm very keen when talking about disability to look at disability in its broadest sense from physical and sensory impairments through to, I guess we'd call it more neurodiversity.
Robin Edwards:Yeah.
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:And I believe that's, that's an area that you'd sort of, if one had to label, Robin, fit into that. Do you want to tell us a bit more about that?
Robin Edwards:Well, from a disability point of view, I guess I've had anxiety and sort of depression on and off. Not the worst depression that some people get. But, you know, I've had that since I was a teenager. But what I didn't realise was that some of that is linked to neurodiversity in the form of autism. And I only really found out about that properly, I'm thinking maybe three years ago or something, I got a diagnosis. Really recently. Very recently. Because prior to that, I had just been following the advice of a book that my mum chucked my way when I was young, the book called Feel The Fear and Do It Anyway. And so I basically just live my life like that, just kind of felt stress and felt anxiety and just tried to, you know, jump through that and get on with life. So my neurodiversity, although it was always there, and when I look back, I think, oh, gosh, yeah, okay, that explains that, I didn't really fully understand it until more recently, when it was becoming more of a problem for me.
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:So what led you to seek that diagnosis? Because as you say, that's quite a big process, quite a prolonged process, quite a journey to go on. What what got you to that point?
Robin Edwards:Erm, I suppose that for me, it was more, it was a mixture of a few things colliding. So transition for me, because I started off life assumed female. And I am... as you can hear, I've been through transition to be, to look and be perceived, you know, the male me. And so there was that transition that I was going through. Work also went through a transition at the same time, the small company that I'd been working for, for five years, got taken over by a bigger, by a much bigger company. And that involved a whole change of management and everything. And a change of my job role and all that. And then my partner, being a counsellor, being aware of sort of people's, you know, differences, and certainly being aware of neurodiversity, kind of hinted -
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:Hmm, mmm
Robin Edwards:- that maybe I should look at this. And...
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:How did you feel about that?
Robin Edwards:Well, yeah, I mean, I just totally kind of denied it for quite some time.
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:Mm-hmm.
Robin Edwards:You know, I was I really did not want any kind of label at first. I sort of, once I started to look at it, and it wasn't just my partner, there was somebody else who knows a lot about it, who's a good friend who basically, you know, said, yeah, you know, you could consider that maybe this is right for you. And so yeah, when I- I just sort of every now and again, I'd just kind of look at an article or, you know, if I heard somebody talking about it, I'd kind of, I'd give - I'd sort of listen more than I might normally. And also I remember going on a walk once that I'd organised or that... yeah, with with a friend, who I ended up talking to a lot about, about things like sensory sort of, what would it be? So...
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:Sensory overload? I don't want to put words in your mouth.
Robin Edwards:Yeah, No it is, yeah, to move it along. Yeah, it was overload really. So... which was coming through for me in the office, for example, you know, increasing the open plan offices, which make it really impossible to focus and concentrate when you're, when you've got this sort of neurodiversity. And just, I think I forget if we were talking about me being able to hear too much or not enough. But anyway, I think that we were talking about hearing, and that sort of set me off the route of looking down, looking into misophonia, and what that is, and sort of seeing that a lot of neurodiverse people have that. And yeah, all these little bits just kind of fitted together.
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:Yeah, I mean, it's really interesting, in some in the work I do in my day job supporting disabled staff, I hear - I have contact with a lot of staff who are neurodivergent, for whom this whole trend, growing trend, for big open plan offices are just a nightmare.
Robin Edwards:Yeah, absolutely.
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:They just really don't work. So it's really interesting, you know, with the whole shift to home working, remote working that COVID's brought about, whilst it's not great for everybody for everything, I think it's certainly removed some of those areas for people.
Robin Edwards:It has got some massive advantages for disabled people. Because you know, you're at home in your environment that you set up for yourself and your needs. And suddenly you can actually focus and concentrate when you're not worried about COVID.
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:Well, yeah, absolutely.
Robin Edwards:So yeah, I think, yeah, I mean, certainly one of the reasons that I ended up getting a diagnosis was because I had suggested to my managers that I might be experiencing some issues with focus and concentration because of all the change. And also because I was struggling to focus in that environment. And they were being... they weren't being quite as... you know, they were asking questions about that. Oh, have you got a diagnosis, and of course, you know - and the trouble is, of course, in England and in Nottinghamshire in particular where I am, it's really hard to get a diagnosis when you're an adult. They kind of assume, well, you know, you only need a diagnosis if you need it. And I guess what had happened is, I came to the point where I needed it in order to prove why I was having issues.
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:Yes.
Robin Edwards:You know, because, yeah, it was getting in the way of my performance at work. And that was a real problem.
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:Sadly, that's not just the case in Nottinghamshire. We have the same issues here in Oxford, and I know other people across the country that do. So for the benefit of those people listening that don't know much about the sort of diagnostic process. How did that pan out for you?
Robin Edwards:Well, I'm afraid I went private.
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:Okay. No, don't - no need to be afraid, I think that's understandable.
Robin Edwards:I mean, bearing in mind that, at the time, I was hearing that the Nottinghamshire County was not good at diagnosing adults at all. And that I would need to go to Nottingham City, I think. And unfortunately, I had no route into that other than going to county first saying that that was rubbish and I didn't believe them, and that I wanted a referral, so it would have taken ages, and I didn't have ages. And so I decided to spend out, you know, a reasonable sum of money to, to contact somebody who was able to give me a diagnosis. I'm not sure that I want to give out their name, because....
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:No no, that's fine, you don't need to, you don't need to.
Robin Edwards:Yeah.
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:So I mean, how long did that process take privately?
Robin Edwards:Privately? maybe a month?
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:Okay
Robin Edwards:From me deciding to us arranging appointments to then getting the diagnosis, something like that. But it probably would have been more like a year if I'd done it on the NHS.
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:If not more, Robin.
Robin Edwards:Probably more now.
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.
Robin Edwards:I mean now, it's impossible. Because, yeah, it's all shuffling round. And, and COVID, you know.
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:Yes, yes. Absolutely. And, and in terms of getting that diagnosis, I mean, how did you... how did you feel when you had that report that gave that diagnosis?
Robin Edwards:Well, I mean, I was a bit naughty, actually, in that I received the diagnosis. And I read it, and I was very thankful that I had the diagnosis. And, you know, and relieved, to some extent, because I - you know, at that moment, I did need to demonstrate that I needed it. But at the same time, I, at the very end, I sort of turn around to the doctor and said, what if you're wrong?
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:Really, really?
Robin Edwards:I know, whenever I think that, having said that, I feel mortified, you know, why would you go to a specialist, and ask them that. And then... yeah, because there's always this level of denial, you know, that's what it is. It's just... yeah. But I do believe, you know, my, behaviours, some of the things that have happened over the years, you know, the way that I was, or not, at school, you know, with young people like my, sort of, my inability to kind of fit in with anyone that wasn't different in their own way, kind of demonstrates to me that it is the correct diagnosis, it's just hard sometimes to accept that you need a label after all these years.
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:Labels are funny things, aren't they? Because on the one hand, I think, you know, being disabled, being LGBT, it's a world full of labels, and they have their uses, but they only have their uses because we live in a world that seems to want to label something.
Robin Edwards:Yeah.
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:Whereas obviously really, it'd be much better if that wasn't the case, if we just accepted everyone was different and unique. And I know that sounds idealistic, but that's the way I see the world.
Robin Edwards:Yeah, I mean, the world is like that, isn't it? You know, we're not actually, you know, we're not... there are very few binaries, if any, we are all very different and it's just that some of us are slightly more off the side than the others. Yeah.
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:Yeah. I mean, there is a stereotype about autism, Aspergers, what that means, what the symptoms, behaviours are. How do you feel about that whole attitude of neurodivergence, autism?
Robin Edwards:Well, I... for people like myself, who don't have a learning disability as well, so to speak, so the actual just, just the pure autism side of it, the fact that I think much more logically I kind of like... I remember having lots of counselling sessions at one point. And the counsellor just kept bringing me back to stop trying to logic through this, you know, what are your emotions telling you? I'm like, what your emotions now? You know. Yeah, but so what? What I think, autist- the autistic people that I know have a slightly kind of off view of the world, which which is very matter of fact, well this therefore that, you know, look at that happening over there. And we're not blinkered by social convention. So we can see through things, I think we can see truth more quickly than, than a lot of other people who are being sort of, that are following a crowd, or listening to general opinion and things like that. So I think- and also this kind of the sensory stuff of, you know, hearing more than other people or seeing more detail or kind of, I notice tiny insects moving in the grass, you know, that other people don't spot. I'm very good at, you know, the whole mushroom hunting and kind of like looking, you know, looking for my special interest, just kind of, you know, finding things that other people - including in computer code, because I'm the traditional autistic computer programmer, or I was for a while, and yeah, spotting tiny details that your non neuro - your neurotypical people might miss. And being able to drill down into the level of detail without getting bored, you know, just being fascinated by going into fine detail and then finding things that other people just couldn't find.
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:Mm, mmm.
Robin Edwards:So I think I think being neuro atypical is great. I think, I think that if you welcome neuro atypical people into your communities, you get great gain from it. I don't...
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:Absolutely.
Robin Edwards:I don't see it as a problem at all.
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:No, no. So obviously, you've mentioned earlier that you transitioned, you are a trans guy. Yeah. Looking back, I mean obviously, that was, that was a big process. How much do you think your being autistic affected, impacted, played into that whole process, that journey of self discovery?
Robin Edwards:That's an interesting question. I think the only... well, the only way I sometimes think through like, why do there appear to be quite a lot of autistic people within the trans community? And one thing that I think of is what I just said about we don't tend to be swayed by public opinion. So public opinion says trans is bad, we're just going to ignore that. And go, well, actually, I seem to fit with that. Therefore, it's not bad, because it's just me, you know. So there's that side, which helped me to be able to see through certain things. I also, I kind of, like, from a transition point of view, like, I feel quite non binary in my head. However, for some, like, I kind of need a bit of a black and white version of myself. So I am actually identifying as a trans man, even though I kind of feel quite non binary, but that's because I feel the need to present myself to the world in a way that they will understand.
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:Okay, that's interesting.
Robin Edwards:I mean, that may sound a bit controversial, maybe, but like, because I know that there are some people who are like, ooh, you're only doing, you're only becoming trans because of, you know... people saying various things like, you know, for instance, oh, you're scared of being gay? Or, like I was gay for 30 years, I wasn't scared of it. I just...
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:No.
Robin Edwards:I just passed through it, you know?
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:Yep. Yeah.
Robin Edwards:Like it nearly fitted but not quite.
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:But not quite.
Robin Edwards:It didn't take account of my body. And
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:Yeah, yeah.
Robin Edwards:And the fact that I needed certain features of my body to be different. But yeah, so the autism kind of fed into how I approach transition, I think, but it wasn't being autistic that made me trans. Or, you know, yeah. What were you thinking? I mean.
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:Well...
Robin Edwards:If you have any thoughts in mind.
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:It is really interesting because obviously, being trans myself, doing the work I do, I do come into contact with quite a few people who are autistic, and as you say, there then seems to be quite a few of them who are also trans or gender questioning. And I know if you dig deeper into research and all sorts of stuff, there's all sorts of theories and everything posited, but I do think that from what I've encountered myself from other people, I think it's, as you say, there is that lack of concern about - well, on the one hand, there's lack of concern, what will people say, in terms of, you know, fitting the sort of the gender norms, gendered expectations, attitudes towards being trans. But I think I equally can see the other side, because often there are issues around, you know, anxiety, mental health issues that come with being neurodivergent, that I think it can be that sort of that contrast, that... what's the word.... push and pull between on the one hand, you know, you're not held back by what society might think. But then on the other hand, you've got those whole anxieties about how will you be perceived, and the fact you're different? And how do you feel about being different? But that's just my perspective.
Robin Edwards:Yeah, it's quite, I think it's quite... it's really complex. Because what I've just - I mean, in my head, I'm just thinking, hang on a minute, if I think this through, so there's.... it's interesting how.... So, like I said, you know, when I was trying to consider, so I knew that I definitely wanted top surgery, for example, like once, once I got my head around the fact that I didn't agree with surgeries, per se, like, I didn't agree with cosmetic surgeries at all, prior to fully accepting that I was transgender. And I think, I think that that was part of what pushed me away from being transgender in the first place, because, because a number of times throughout my life, I've read articles talking, you know, prior to the, prior to the visual internet, we would just read documents and things. And I remember reading documents that basically talked about what trans people were, and it would get to the point where they started talking about surgeries. And I'd be like, oh, no, no, no, no, no, that's not me. No, I'm not, no, for me, it's just in my mind, you know, I'm just boyish, you know. But actually, as I then, when I then came across YouTube videos of people and watching them transition, and watching the hormonal changes, to kind of change these people into who they sort of felt themselves to be. When I watched it, I - it completely made sense. And once I watched guys who'd had their top surgery, showing their chests and going look, what about... you know, I was amazed at how good that that could look or how similar to... I just never imagined that it could be so...so - I almost want to say real, but that's a horrible thing to say. But of course, it's real. But -
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:Yeah, yeah.
Robin Edwards:You know what I mean? Like, it's not something you- it's something
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:I do, yeah. that's very hard to, to kind of imagine as possible. Because it's relative, well it's not, it's not that new, but to me, it's relatively new. And once I kind of got into the mindset of wow, this is really possible to transition, then I could properly start thinking about it for myself. And considering well, which parts of this would I like to have for myself? And yeah, and I got to the top surgery bit and thought, yes, I.. that I definitely, definit ly have not wanted, you know, my chest as it is. And then.... ut - and I'd never, I hadn't r ally had as much lower dysphori as some people have. But this is where the, I think the autis came in, of needing and wan ing to be binary. Even though i my head, I'm kind of non b nary, but physically, I wa ted to be binary. So I needed verything to align. If I was goi g to have top surgery, I then wanted to have low surger Mm hmm. That's a really interesting perspective.
Robin Edwards:Yeah. And I hadn't really thought too hard about the lower surgery prior to that, whereas I know a lot of trans people who really were almost the other way round.
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:Yeah, I mean, I mean, we'll, we'll get on to that sort of wider question of sort of disability within the LGBT community. But before we get there, so you mentioned that, you know, you were, you were passing through being gay for 30 years.
Robin Edwards:Yep [laughter]. Well, let's face it. I had a whole lifetime of being gay though, didn't I?
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:Absolutely.
Robin Edwards:Yeah.
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:You'll be well aware of those sort of lazy tropes that are out there about you know, trans men and you know, the pressure that's on lesbians and everything to become trans and all of that side of things? What, what's your take, what's your response to that?
Robin Edwards:Well, I mean, I think it's quite funny really. I think it's quite funny in a sad kind of way, you know, that people would preoccupy themselves with... like... I am so... I have so many lesbian friends, I mean, a lot less than I used to have, because, unfortunately, you tend to kind of get a bit ostracised when you transition, from the community, not necessarily deliberately, but just because a lesbian community can be quite closed in, and there aren't - they, you know, even though they may have brothers and fathers and you know, that they quite like, they do tend to keep away from a lot of guys. And so if you're transitioning, you tend to have to leave that community and leave a lot of your friends behind. Which is a real shame. And I really wish that communities weren't so isolating like that. But... sorry, and I'm going to lose the track of what we were talking about.
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:It's okay.
Robin Edwards:What do I think of, yes, those people who might say that, you know, that we're kind of forcing women to... gay women to transition. I think it's a complete nonsense. You know, the reason that I transitioned was because, despite being perfectly happy within the women's community, I- and pretty openly gay, at work and anywhere else - my body just needed, I needed my body to.... my body was - basically what was happening was that as I was getting older, my face was looking more and more feminine. And it was becoming harder for me to... you know, that trope of looking at yourself in the mirror. I mean, I wasn't looking in the mirror and seeing a man, I was looking in the mirror and seeing a woman who I didn't... didn't seem to be supposed to be there if.... if, you know, I just kind of look and go, I'm really uncomfortable about this. And I really, I really cannot, I do not, I do not see myself turning into an older woman, that just doesn't make any kind of sense. And when I was younger, because I'm reasonably tall, and I've always - well, I used to be pretty slim. And - and apart from my chest, the rest of me looked very masculine, very boyish. So I could always pass as, like, often pass as a young man. So as I got older, that was getting harder and harder, to pass as this young man, and, yeah, and I think that that's what gradually changed my brains to go you know what, no, I really need to look more masculine. I need to continue to look this, you know, masculine.
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:Yeah.
Robin Edwards:And, yeah. And that's where, that's where the switch happened.
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:I mean, people often talk about, you know, not not knowing what trans was at an early stage not having role models. I think I'm right, Robin, I think we have a similar age. If not, you're slightly older.
Robin Edwards:I've turned 50 recently.
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:Oh, well, I'm not quite 50 yet. Oh yes you have, I should have known that. My apologies! That's okay. So yes, you're just a couple of years ahead of me.
Robin Edwards:I mean, yeah. And I started transitioning six years ago, I think.
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:Okay. Okay. So pretty old. Well, yeah. And a fairly recent transition similar to myself. Yeah. I mean, when you were growing up, when you were in that lesbian community, do you think you were aware of the whole trans....?
Robin Edwards:Yes, absolutely.
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:Okay.
Robin Edwards:I brought it up in a counselling session when I was about 24. I remember specifically saying, I think I might be a guy, you know, I... there's ways.... and I was sitting in the office, I'd arrived on my motorbike. I was in my leathers, you know? Yeah. And I was just basically saying it, there's something so masculine about me, I can't quite put a finger on it, I said. And, you know, I have - and I must have known about trans... I definitely had a trans friend round about that time when - and I met, I'd met one young trans woman in a club years, sort of a few years prior, and spoke with her about it. So I sort of said this, and the counsellor basically said, okay, all right, let's explore this then. And she went on to say, well, how would you feel if you were in a bar, you know, with with your male friends and sort of talking about football and stuff and, and of course, this sent me on completely the wrong track. I bet. Because I'm not into football, and I don't tend to hang out... well, I did used to go to pubs, actually, but....
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:Yeah, yeah.
Robin Edwards:I don't, I don't find bloke talk really necessarily that interesting.
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:Nope.
Robin Edwards:I'm more of a deep thinker.
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:Yeah,
Robin Edwards:No, no offence to the deep thinker guys out there. But I think you know, what I mean that kind of banter, the lad banter I just can't really... I've struggled to do that. So this counsellor, unfortunately, he was really good at a lot of other things, just totally sent me down the wrong road with that. And that was the end of that. I didn't talk. The next time I spoke about it was with somebody, not like, within a year or two of that I was sat opposite a lesbian at a restaurant. And I happen to say to this, this young woman, oh, yeah, you know, sometimes I think that I want... I wish I was called Claude, I think the name was. And because it's a more masculine name, and her face just dropped. Really? As if to say, either I know about that, and I don't want to hear it, or why would you say such a thing? You know, it was such a negative reaction that I completely shut up. And, again, didn't talk about it again, for years. So, you know, I've been shut down a number of times, either by myself or by other people...
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:Mm hmm.
Robin Edwards:...along the way.
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:And... what got you to that point where you thought no, the time is now?
Robin Edwards:Oh, just because I like... there was that programme on television where they put a bunch of trans people in a house together for a few weekends. And I watched that programme out of interest. And it was really, quite, I thought it was quite a good programme at the time, and then a year later, I went on the internet and thought, ooh, how are they getting on now? Because some of them were partway through transition. So how are they getting on? And I went off onto YouTube, found them, found that they were doing a whole load of other videos now, that they were happier with them the television programme.
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:Yeah.
Robin Edwards:And, and the videos just sent me off on that journey that I spoke of, you know, where I finally understood what transition journey could be like, and what it properly entailed. And once I saw that clearly, I realised that that was me.
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:Yeah. Fantastic. And how was your family with that?
Robin Edwards:Oh, I'm very lucky. I've got a - well, most of my family is pretty, you know, really, as like, as accepting as you can expect a lot of people to be. I've had the occasional small hiccup with them. I did have one family member who took a bit longer than the others to kind of adjust to it. But no, I mean, my, I think my mom's reaction, I don't think she'd mind me saying was when I said to her the next day, I wasn't 100% sure how you kind of took it. Could you, are you able to just tell me exactly how that came across to you? And she turned around and said, well, you know, I list- I heard you saying it. And, and I thought to myself, well, we've been through the gay thing. And that turned out all right[laughter]. So this is probably going to be fine, too.
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:Excellent. Yeah.
Robin Edwards:And my dad, like about sort of six months into transition or something I - medical transition - I think I said, you know, so how are things going in your mind in relation to this? And he said, he said something along the lines of oh, yeah, it feels absolutely fine to me. You're just my son now. Isn't that... or... So that is brilliant. Absolutely brilliant.
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:And I'm, you know, I'm well aware of all the people that might listen to this, and they've not had that positive experience, which is really sad. I mean, I myself, my dad wasn't around anymore. He actually died the year before I began the process. But my mom was fantastic. So I class myself was really fortunate. Yeah. But yeah, I guess we both know, plenty of stories don't we
Robin Edwards:Yeah
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:Of friends, and people we've come across where that has just not been the case?
Robin Edwards:Yeah. I mean, there are some parents who... I don't know why, they can't get their head around it. I don't know if it's because of all the things they've read in the newspapers, which are complete nonsense.
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:Mm-hmm.
Robin Edwards:Or, you know, whether they're just afraid. I remember something my grandfather said to me years ago, when I came out as gay to him, and he said, oh, I thought you'd murdered somebody, he said, after he'd prised out why I was so depressed.
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:Oh gosh.
Robin Edwards:And I said, no, no, I'm just gay. Yeah. And.... but he basically reacted in - he said, well, you know, that's fine with me, you know, I've, I've sort of, there's no problem with me. However, just be careful with the neighbours, you know, it was that sense that- cause I, and I think a lot of people think that way. I think a lot of people think that everybody else has got a problem with it, when actually most people haven't got a problem with it. Not really, you know, it doesn't affect people, if they think about it.
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:No.
Robin Edwards:It doesn't affect you, the parents, other than worrying about what other people might think.. Absolutely....or worrying about whether you'll be happy, you know whether people are going to treat you right. And if everybody chills out and goes, oh, actually, it's not a problem, then there wouldn't be a problem for us in society.
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:No, I completely agree.
Robin Edwards:Mmm.
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:So how how have things been, through the transition? You've already mentioned that obviously, you lost a few friends from the lesbian community?
Robin Edwards:Yeah that's been sad.
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:Yeah. Yeah. I mean how.. was there else from that transition that surprised you?
Robin Edwards:Erm, I mean, well, the one thing that I thought about partway through medical, like when I was considering whether I'd go for lower surgery or not, or even when I was considering whether I'd go for hormones or not, I remember thinking, oh, if a World War kicked out, kicked up, and there were no hormones, then if I went through the hormonal process of sort of getting my own internals removed, as it were, and having hormone replacement treatment, I thought, you know, I might not have my treatment for a number of years, and how might that impact me? And, you know, that nearly put me off hormonal treatment. And then I realised, well, what about all of the women who are on replacement therapies who no longer have hormones in their system, you know, and, like, surely I'm just in the same boat as them. So you know, when you, when you think it through logically, you can stop worrying about it. However, like, so I'm partway through my lower surgeries, and I'm part - I should have been finished long time ago, but I had some complications. And so I'm still going through that. And so with COVID, I am on hold at the moment. I'm on hold, like, halfway through my process. And that is quite distressing.
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:Mmmm.
Robin Edwards:But just yesterday, I was watching a television programme, I think it was called Me, My Brother and Our Balls, which is about two young men who are experiencing testicular problems, two different types, and they're within the same family. And it's affecting their reproductive capabilities. And they decided to go on television to talk about it, to help other young men, you know, get in touch with their own bodies quicker......and learn about their fertility and stuff
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:Excellent. Yeah.
Robin Edwards:You know, there are loads and loads of children earlier. And, you know, one of them is is highly likely to not be able to have children, which is, you know, in his mid 20s, out there who would love a family, you know? Switch your which is very similar to a lot of trans people, and which is one of the things that the anti trans lobby will say about us is, you're going to make yourselves infertile. Guess what, there are loads of children who would love to be adopted. thinking, stop thinking that your genes are the most important thing in the world, and look to love. Absolutely. You know, look to love and sharing.
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:Absolutely. So obviously within the whole discussion about being trans, there's a lot of focus on, particularly on trans women.
Robin Edwards:Yeah.
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:How do you feel as somebody who, you know, classes himself as more transmasculine? How do you feel about the way trans guys, transmasculinity is... is represented or not within that discussion?
Robin Edwards:I think it's very convenient for them to forget about us. You know, like, oh, let's stop trans women from going into the women's toilets. Okay, so we're gonna stop trans men from going into the men's toilets. And so, so then you're going to have men in the women's toilets, are you? [laughter]
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:Yeah.
Robin Edwards:You're trying to get what you think of as men, who are who are in fact, women, you're trying to classify as man, you're trying to get them out of the toilet. In which case, you'll end up with actual men looking like -
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:Yeah.
Robin Edwards:You know, I have a beard. I have a bald head, you know?
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:Yeah.
Robin Edwards:Nobody's gonna think that I'm a woman.
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:No.
Robin Edwards:So you know, it's very convenient for them to forget about trans man. Yeah.
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:Do you feel sort of like there are specific issues for trans men that aren't being addressed or talked about?
Robin Edwards:Er, yes, but... gosh, I mean, the main issues at the moment are about trans women. So that's where my main thinking has been. You know, get in the camp of protecting trans women, because they're the ones who are being massively attacked.
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:Mm hmm.
Robin Edwards:Are there issues for trans men? Well, yeah, I mean, there's still the issues, which are the same for all trans people, along the lines of... so things like we still don't have trans rights. And that's the same for men and women. Is there anything specific to trans men? I mean, maybe, maybe in trans healthcare, like, you know, men needing to access gynaecology services. So people who are men having to go into what is essentially 99% women's space, or, you know, in hospitals and being stuck on female wards, when they're having treatments and... or being, yeah, being ref- being like, they can't stay on the men's ward, because there isn't the specialism there on the men's ward, to deal with if they're having issues with things which are traditionally seen as female, parts of their bodies that you know, that sort of fall under those categories?
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:Yep.
Robin Edwards:Yeah, I mean, so there's those things.
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:Fine. You don't have to, if you...
Robin Edwards:Yeah, I haven't. Yeah.
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:It's fine.
Robin Edwards:Like I say, I've been thinking more about trans women.
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:Well, and that's....
Robin Edwards:And non binary people.
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:Yeah. Yeah. Because they are certainly within the media, the main areas of...
Robin Edwards:Discussion
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:.....and fighting. Yes. Yeah. I think the one of the many byproducts is that when you say the word trans, most people sort of outside the community would think of trans women.
Robin Edwards:Yes, and when I mentioned that I'm trans, you know, people are probably going to think oh, do you wear dresses at home then? Yeah, no....
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:No, no, not worn a dress for how many years, if ever....
Robin Edwards:Last time mom got me in a dress, I was 10. So yeah, yeah, I think my manager did once manage to get me to go to a work function in dress. Really? By absolutely begging me. And I was probably about 23 at the time,
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:My gosh.
Robin Edwards:And I had very, very short hair and a tattoo on my shoulder. And it's this sleeveless dress and I walked into this swanky hotel, the toilet downstairs, where they were like mirrors all along the mirrors down the bottom, and I and I thought, oh, who's that rather strange looking woman at the end? And then realised it was in fact me.
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:Me. It's me.
Robin Edwards:Yeah, that was hilarious.
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:Gosh. So coming back to, obviously, the fact that you know, you, you have your diagnosis as being autistic?
Robin Edwards:Yep.
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:And we've already talked a bit about the fact that, you know, there does seem to be quite a proportion of people in the trans community who are also autistic. I mean, what's been your experience of intersecting both those communities? And the sort of positives and negatives, if you like, of that?
Robin Edwards:Yeah, I think that the, the only real negative that I see is that people are saying to us, oh, well, you're only trans because you're autistic, which, of course is complete nonsense. Or they're saying, oh, no, you can't transition because you're autistic, if it's an autistic person with learning difficulties as well, or learning differences. So they're really, I think the only negatives. In terms of positives, well, it's great to have a community where everybody understands what it's like to be autistic.
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:Yeah. Absolutely.
Robin Edwards:Not everybody, but you know, lots of people.
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:Yeah. Yeah.
Robin Edwards:So if there's a lot of camaraderie around that, you know.
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:Yeah. I mean, we talked earlier about trans space, not Trans Hope, where obviously we were both involved and you still are. And the one thing that I very much liked about that community was the way that there was that acceptance of, okay, we may not know everything about disability, but obviously, you know, there was that...
Robin Edwards:Want to accommodate.
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:Yes, yes.
Robin Edwards:Yeah, absolutely.
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:And hat was great. But is that something you've had to work hard on, do you think?
Robin Edwards:Yeah, oh definitely, I mean, I have to, you know, big up Sam Hope for that. As in being one of the, I mean, there were sort of maybe, there was a group of something like six to eight people. I can't remember the exact number. And now I'm not saying that Sam was the only one who, you know, was pushing for intersectionality, there were a number of us who totally agreed, and we were all in sync, like, we want this to be available to people of colour, we want this to be available to people of any sort of religious backgrounds, we want this to be available, yep, to people with disabilities, we want to, you know, Sam always pushes really hard for a venue to be accessible. So we put a lot of time into making sure that, that the venue was at least wheelchair accessible, not too bad on acoustics. And we, you know, we put on the website, like, make sure that you contact us, if you've got any other accessibility issues, we would, if need be, we would help with with a with a sign language interpreter if needed. But you know, we may need people to say what they need, but at least we're gonna listen and do our absolute best to accommodate.
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:Mmm.
Robin Edwards:And that's at the forefront of the thinking rather than oh, okay, yeah all right then, you know, which, which you quite often get from venues.
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:You do. And I have to say that that was definitely my experience, and in doing this podcast and talking to other people, sadly, it's not always that way.
Robin Edwards:Within different groups, you mean?
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:Yes.
Robin Edwards:Yeah.
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:Yeah. And I think lots of groups could learn from that approach of Notts Trans Hub, there may well be others out there, probably are. But I think there's a lot that could be learned from that intersectional approach.
Robin Edwards:Yeah, and unfortunately, like, you know, Nottingham is not the easiest places to find accommodation.... No....that is actually accessible, because we're sort of up and down hills. And so we've got, we've got lots of steps into shops and venues and - but there are things people can do, like, you know, don't store your beer kegs in the lifts.
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:Yeah.
Robin Edwards:You know, if there's, if there's only one service delivery lift, then don't fill it with stuff...
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:No
Robin Edwards:...and keep it clean. Don't have like sticky floors in there so that people, you know, feel ashamed of having to use those lifts and...things like that.
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:Don't use the accessible toilet as the cleaners cupboard.
Robin Edwards:Yeah. Or to stock your stock. Yeah.
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:Yeah, absolutely.
Robin Edwards:Because that just happened a lot. And you know, yeah, keep the pull cords down near the ground where they're supposed to be and don't tie them up high!
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:Oh, gosh. Absolutely Robin, absolutely.
Robin Edwards:The list goes on now. Yeah. It does. It does. It does. I mean, it's, it's really great to have had that experience. And I think it's definitely something I'm taking with me to, well, the work of this podcast, the work I'm doing in Oxford, and the work that I think needs to happen. Yeah, absolutely.
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:Because there's a lot of commonality between different equality groups.
Robin Edwards:Yeah. Yeah, there is, and lot of crossover. But yeah.
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:I mean, there are some distinct issues. But there is a lot of crossover. So as you sort of sit from where you are, Robin, you know, surveying the landscape, if you like, the metaphorical landscape, how do you feel about the world of sort of LGBT rights, disability issues, looking ahead?
Robin Edwards:Oh, I mean, at the moment, the world is pretty frightening. Just because things are going backwards at the moment, or seem to be, or certainly people are trying to get the world to go backwards. You know, for example, a detransitioner is trying to stop the only young people's gender clinic in London, from ministering... the only thing they do, which is puberty blockers. And I think they're also saying don't let young people... I mean, we tend not to be able to get hormones before 18 anyway. I'm not sure whether anybody in England legally can get them... maybe from 16 onwards, maybe.
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:Maybe, yeah.
Robin Edwards:I think Gillick competence is what they're talking about. So in theory, in theory, you could have.... so the hormone blockers, you could, in theory get those, the puberty blockers sorry. It's frightening that people are actually taking those things to court. What is good is that today, a whole bunch of children's charities actually wrote a letter together in opposition to that court case against young people being able to access puberty blockers, from the age of Gillick competence, which is what is potentially possible at the moment. What we have is, so we have people trying to stop that from happening. But yes, there will always be the occasional person who regrets what they've done in any in any area of life. However, you have to, you have to allow people to make their mistakes. And I think you know, social services know that this... trans people are no different. Some people are gon na make mistakes. Most people don't, most people are perfectly happy. And in the political landscape, at the moment, things are going quite conservative, things are kind of almost like a well, the edgy gone fascist, you know, that's the way that, that's the way people are talking now. And that is very, very frightening for the trans community, and other minority communities and disability communities as well. But there is also, there are also a lot of voices being raised in in support of us, and that is heartwarming.
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:Mmm, I would, I would completely agree.
Robin Edwards:And we need more of that, please, because...
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:Absolutely.
Robin Edwards:... there is not enough of that. But we need more of that, we need more of the positive, more of the reinforcement, we need more allies standing up and saying, yes, we support you.
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:We do.
Robin Edwards:We love you. You're fine.
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:We definitely do. And I guess one final element of that is, you know, we've talked about being trans is tough, it does have its impact on one's sort of life, positive and negative. You talked about your own experiences of anxiety and things. How do you keep yourself going, Robin? What do you do to sort of refuel your sort of emotional.....?
Robin Edwards:Yeah, I mean, it's interesting isn't it, because at the moment is a really challenging time. And, you know, like I said, at the beginning of this, that I'm a bit of a singer songwriter, and only on a very, very amateur level. But, you know, I have performed just a few - in a few folk clubs and little things like that. So I'm taking it reasonably seriously. But there was a period of about four months where I couldn't actually pick up the guitar or the flute. Now I could play the flute pretty easily. I'm about level four and a half, I reckon[laughter]. And the guitar, I can do ,you know, enough, enough chords to get up on the stage and sing a few things. But I absolutely could not pick the things up.
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:Really?
Robin Edwards:And it really worried me because the thought wow, you know, is that it? Am I gonna have to say no? Like, am I going to have to switch to other stuff that is more manageable, like drawing or something? Really? Yeah. But I love drawing, so wouldn't be a terrible thing. So my brain kind of went to okay, you're completely stopped in this area. That's really sad. And I'm really quite worried about it, but what can I do? What is working? And the things that work for me at times when my life feels like it's collapsing, is helping other people.
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:Mm hmm.
Robin Edwards:So I've done a lot of assisting other people with things they can't do. Mmm. And more recently, I sort of realised, you know, actually, for some reason, at the moment, I feel like I need to be known within.... so the, within the village where I live, for example, because I've always been sort of a bit kind of closed in, as a trans person in a village, but I did, so I decided to go and just help out at the local charity shop.
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:Mmm-hmm.
Robin Edwards:Just so that I got to know some local people and so they can see me as a human being and...
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:How's that been?
Robin Edwards:Well, I've not come out to them officially. Although, you know, I, I'm sure they would have seen my facebook profile.
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:Yeah. But it's not but it's not been an issue. It's not been...?
Robin Edwards:It's been absolutely fine. It's been fun.
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:Yeah. Good.
Robin Edwards:It's been fun and friendly. Aeally good decision. So how do I handle it? Yes. I, I try not to tell myself off when I can't do things. If I need if I need a day in bed, I have a day in bed. If I can go out for a walk, which is hard for me because of my anxiety, but if I can, then I congratulate myself just for having a walk that day. Yep. You know, I basically celebrate the small things at the moment.
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:Absolutely. I think that's a really great, really great message. I mean, just finally, was there anything else you wanted to say that we haven't touched on?
Robin Edwards:Yes, yes.
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:Go on.
Robin Edwards:Community. Okay. Yes. So, you know, I'm actually currently taking a bit of a break from Notts Trans Hub and TSN. Just because of my life becoming overwhelming, you know, not just COVID but prior to COVID. And so I needed to take a break and some of the people who've been with NTH and TSM from the beginning, because they've been going for about six years, I suppose, now, some of the other people have been sort of getting bit overwhelmed because we've been doing it ... we've been.... basically it became more popular than we expected.
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:Mmm-hmm.
Robin Edwards:And so it's been more work than we expected. And that's great, you know.
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:Yeah.
Robin Edwards:Like, you could not want for a better outcome. But of course with that, and with us running, like, on a very low budget, so, you know, we're not paid or anything, we did eventually take on one administrator to help with, with some of the stuff. But yeah, so we've become overwhelmed and - However, when it started out, it was the best thing in the world, you know, to basically create community where there was no... not a lot of support. I had somebody pick me up on that and say, well, there is support, you know, there's the gender clinic and all that. But yeah, but it takes three years, or two and a half to three years, to access the gender clinic.
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:It does, yep, it does.
Robin Edwards:You know, apart from the standard counselling from the doctors, there's nothing, nothing for people. So community, set up a community, if you live somewhere where there is no community for you, you know, find one person to do it with and set up a Facebook community, like, do not be afraid. Because wherever you are, if you need something, there's somebody else who needs it too, and might be less able than you to set it up. So be brave, you know, and if you can, just find one person to just help you to try that. And also, if you're completely unsure, contact other communities, say hi, say I'm thinking about setting up a community. What do I do? How do I go about it? They're more than likely to want to support you in figuring out how to do it in your area where you are. I've lent support to a number of people who've tried setting up communities, some communities which have been successful. So you know, go for it. Don't be on your own out there.
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:No, and I think that's a message that's more important than ever at the minute.
Robin Edwards:Yes. Yeah, definitely.
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:Absolutely. Well, Robin, it's been an absolute pleasure.
Robin Edwards:Thank you very much.
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:Thank you for your time, for your honesty, your openness.
Robin Edwards:You're welcome. It's been fun. It's been nice talking...
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:Good
Robin Edwards:... about these issues. Yes.
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:Good. Okay. Thank you.
Robin Edwards:Thank you.
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:That was a really, really interesting chat. I really am thankful to Robin for his time. As usual, if you want to get in touch with me to give any feedback about the podcast or anything you've heard, you can do so via email: info@simplyequality.com. You can find me on Twitter at Sarahlou172. And I'm also on Instagram under Simply Equality UK. Thanks for listening and I'll be back soon.