Episode 2: Disabled Drag King Problems Artwork

The Simply Equality podcast

An open, honest and on occasions humourous exploration of the lived realities of disabled and LGBT+ people. In each episode I will talk to someone who is both disabled and LGBT+ and discuss the challenges they face and how they seek to live their best life.

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The Simply Equality podcast

Episode 2: Disabled Drag King Problems

August 29, 2025 • Simply Equality • Season 4 • Episode 2

In this episode we chat to LH Macbeth AKA Himish Macbeth about being a disabled drag king. We chat about struggles, successes and attitudes we’d prefer to encounter when talking about inaccessibility and end up talking about the power of joy. Whether you’re a queer, disabled person wanting to see if drag is for you or you’re a venue that wants to be more accessible – you won’t want to miss this episode.

For LH's socials:

Instagram: @LH_Macbeth or @Himish_Macbeth

Facebook: LH Macbeth or Himish Macbeth

Learn more about Simply Equality by visiting SimplyEquality.com

You can also download the show transcript.

Simply Equality Podcast Transcript

Episode 2 – Disabled Drag King Problems with LH Macbeth

[Simply Equality intro music plays]

SARAH STEPHENSON-HUNTER

Hi, and welcome to another episode of the Simply Equality podcast, the podcast that seeks to foreground the lived experiences of disabled and LGBTQ plus people. My name is Sarah Stephenson-Hunter. I'm one half of Simply Equality. I'm a trainer, speaker, obviously a podcaster. And before we get into the amazing guest we have today, PK, do you want to introduce yourself?

PK KULASEGRAM

Yeah, I am PK, pronouns they/them. I'm the other half of Simply Equality, coach, trainer, kind of jack-of-all-trades.

SARAH STEPHENSON-HUNTER

You’re much more than that, PK.

[Pk and Sarah both chuckle]

We have an amazing guest on today. We have LH. They are known as LH Macbeth. They are also a drag king known as Himish Macbeth.

LH MACBETH

It's a pun that nobody gets because it's because it’s a gender, because it's him-ish. Um you know based on the Hamish, but a lot of people, a lot of people don’t get it but

[LH laughs]

PK KULASEGRAM

Yeah, I do really enjoy it.

SARAH STEPHENSON-HUNTER

You are non-binary, neurodivergent and have a chronic pain condition, which means that you’re ambulatory wheelchair on and off for several years, and you live in Scotland with your wife, daughter, and you're also a fierce advocate of Pride in the disability scene and beyond. And you also work on accessibility as a consultant. So a lot of aspects there.

LH MACBETH

I do a lot of different things.

[LH chuckles]

SARAH STEPHENSON-HUNTER

Tell us a bit more about any of those things you want to to begin with, because it's a great combination of things, which is what we love on this podcast.

LH MACBETH

Yeah, absolutely. So as I said, in terms of just, you know, me, the individual: I'm non-binary, pansexual, only kind of fairly recently came out as non-binary. Yeah. I'm AFAB and have been in a queer relationship for 20 years. So, kind of queer elder, but but sort of trans youngling, if that [LH chuckles] if that's a thing.

SARAH STEPHENSON-HUNTER

Queer elder, trans youngling, I love that!

LH MACBETH

Yeah!

[LH laughs]

And sort of similar-ish with the disability and that. Obviously I've always been neurodivergent. I got an ADHD diagnosis about five years ago now, sort of during Covid, you know during lockdown. And then, my mobility difficulties have been more recent. But it’s sort of been about ten years now.

I have a condition called CRPS, which is Complex Regional Pain Syndrome. A lot of even doctors not always heard of it, but it causes just random pain, which mostly it's in my legs so it causes me some mobility difficulties. So I use a wheelchair. Or I use crutches. That’s sort of me, the person.

I am a performer. So I am an actor and I am a drag king. My Equity name is LH Macbeth, as you say, drag name is Himish Macbeth.

Performing is not the most, lucrative thing. Particularly when when you're disabled and you’re obviously having to - it costs you more to do it and then, you know, the chances are not as numerous.

I also freelance as a consultant doing web content and accessibility consultancy and testing and that kind of thing.

Yeah, I'm a little bit of everything at the moment, Pk.

[Pk and LH both chuckle briefly]

SARAH STEPHENSON-HUNTER

Wow. So many different aspects. I guess the most- not obvious- but the one I want to delve into because our listeners may not be familiar with it. Obviously, you know, in Pride season and there's a lot of talk about drag queens, but people might be less familiar about drag kings. And obviously, I'm really interested in your experience of being a drag king as somebody who's disabled. So I don’t know if you want to talk a bit more about that, LH.

LH MACBETH

Yeah. I mean, it's tricky. Yeah. Drag kings are not as well known. Not as well advertised as drag queens. But, you know, we're part of the drag scene, always have been. And it is quite an integrated drag scene – you know, you know, I will be on with kings and queens and - and things. Yeah. Drag monsters, drag, you know, you’ve got a lot of drag people that aren’t in - within the gender binary at all. I'm sort of non-binary that kind of masc leaning. So I, you know, I do do kind of the more masculine presentation stereotypically. I don’t even like using words like feminine and masculine

[Pk makes a noise of agreement]

because obviously it's all stereotype gender. Yeah. So I do that kind of thing.

And it, it is hard because drag obviously is traditionally been underground in every sense. But before I suppose you did, you've now got, you know, RuPaul's Drag Race in a little bit more mainstream drag. And then you obviously did have, you know, people like Lily Savage and went out and whatnot before that.

But generally speaking, it's kind of, it's underground in a social sense, but that does sadly tend to mean, it's often underground in a literal sense as well. It's mostly in basements.

And obviously at somebody with a mobility difficulty. That's tricky. I mostly, I perform mostly on my crutches. And so I, you know, I um I just, I am able to make that work because I'm am- I'm an ambulatory wheelchair user and I'm generally more comfortable, using a wheelchair, but obviously not everybody is, you know.

I do know, I do, you know, drag kings. A couple of great ones. One called XO in London and Crip Ladywood who is based in Birmingham, who are full time wheelchair users, and they don't have the privilege that I do of being able to go, well, I'll ,you know, I'll get out and I'll go in on my sticks.

I've been doing drag for three years and I've - I could maybe tell you four or five accessible venues that I've been in in that time. And, you know, even those… They’ll work, they’re okay. I can make it, you know, can make do.

So… In fact I’m going to go and see XO in a show in Museum of Comedy beginning of the month .And they kind of said, “well, it's obviously I'm performing so that it is but” you know, they're probably going to have to be on stage the entire time because getting on and offstage is so difficult and that kind of thing.

It's trying to find an a wheelchair accessible venue that is actually wheelchair accessible rather than, uhhh, can I, can I just close my eyes and hope for the best? Is, is hard. And yeah.

There are some amazing- I mean, I just, shout out to Shut Up and King up here in, in Scotland who do, a lot of work and their- they have a dealbreaker, it has to be accessible. So their shows have always been wheelchair accessible, there shows have been BSL interpreted whenever they could possibly get funding. I don't think I've seen any that haven't been BSL interpretated.

There are a few, a few places that are trying their best. A few places, trying, but just the availability of venues is just, you know, when you’re obviously also on a shoestring budget, trying to get, you know, any venue that will actually, you can make us some money, and it can break even and they'll let you in. And it's a safe place for queer people and all the rest of that. And it's trying to get accessibility on top of that is hard, so there’s people that try.

And then obviously you’ll get people who are just not trying at all. But we’re not focus on those people.

PK KULASEGRAM

I haven't done drag in a long time. Also drag king.

LH MACBETH

Oh, amazing!

PK KULASEGRAM

My drag name was Louche-ian Gaymark, which I thought was really funny, was a reference to Shadowhunters and well, kind of vibe. And he - also is a play on the word “louche”.

But like when we were looking at changing venues, I think because the other thing that struck me as you were talking about wheelchair accessible venues, is often what people don't think about is wheelchair accessibility for performers, not just attendees, because they kind of forget that actually wheelchair users are also performers.

So when we were looking at a new venue trying to find, like you said, that balance between: is this going to do a decent profit share that will actually enable us to make a profit while still making our ticket prices accessible to the people who come and watch us? Is this a queer friendly space? Is this a space and like - we had two potential venues that they were looking at and one that I on a personal level hate, with, with a fiery passion in Oxford.

And also it's just, wildly inaccessible. There isn't- the only changing space for performers is up a very, very narrow set of stairs in a tiny room. So it is a nightmare and we – it just would limit the amount of performers we could then invite to perform with us.

The other one would have- kind of put us little bit out, made it harder to make a profit. It wasn't impossible, but worked with an organization like that was more in the centre of town. So it's easier to get to for audience people, they have that kind of more reach. But their accessibility was really good for performers and attendees. So they actually have like a wheelchair lift to get you between the perf- the green rooms and the stage kind of thing.

There's enough space like, I don't know how perfect it is, but it is. It was like, cool well we could- we have a chance to be accessible, let's do it. I like maths, so I did the maths, and was like, actually, we wouldn't have to put up ticket prices that much. The venue itself let us do a tiered ticket offering, which was really cool. So you can be like pay less, middle of the range, pay extra.

LH MACBETH

Yeah, big fan of that - of tiered pricing like that because it's just- it's just honesty based and just. Yeah

PK KULASEGRAM

And it makes- and it makes it more accessible. So I think yeah that's that considering that. I guess as a disabled performer like integrating that into your art kind of, how's that been for you?

LH MACBETH

No, you’re absolutely right. And it’s - It is tricky. You know you do have to balance that stuff up. And yeah, as you say, just the oh, this venue's accessible. Oh, not the stage. You don’t actually want to get on the stage, do you? But I have seen a lot of people literally performing in front of the stage. But then yeah, you've got less space for people to sit.

It's tricky and or, you know, you've got to come up in a very slow lift or, you know, I've had to kind of get down into a performance area and sit and wait for an hour before because everyone else just runs down from the greenroom, but because I've got to go and get, you know, there was a kind of- for listeners that aren’t wheelchair users- there is- there is a kind of little tiny wheelchair lift that you get in public venues sometimes where it's just you just kind of go in and it just fits a wheelchair and it's sort of open air a lot of the time that's operated by key.

So the first thing you have to do is you have to find the person that has the key and, you know, are they on shift today?

[Pk makes noise of agreement]

And so it could take so long just to get down like what is two or three steps. I've had to wait, I've had to perform by the side of the stage. When I have been using my wheelchair, which I use it to host this kind of spoken word. I also, I've done Rocky Horror drag-a-longs a couple of times because- because the character of Doctor Scott, who’s a wheelchair user, and people are getting wise to the fact that you really should use a someone who's genuine, a wheelchair user.

[Sarah makes noise of agreement]

And it’s sort of something I get cast in every year because not a lot of wheelchair using drag kings up here. Been in a couple of different versions of that. But I have had to kind of still be by the stage.

What I find, generally speaking, is the biggest thing that makes the difference is the attitude and the communication around it. I was speaking to another friend of mine who is a, you know, that wheelchair using, drag king who was offered a gig and they said, “well, what's the access like?”

And they went, “well, I think there's a step” and they're like, “well, okay ,I can - maybe if I bring my partner, I can, you know, I can work out. And then..” But ultimately they didn't do it because the person was like, well, “I think there’s – it’ll be fine. I dunno.” Actually, you know, I'd rather someone said, “well, there's this big step here and that's a problem. I can send you photos. I can, you know, what can we do? How can we help?” Rather than people also sort of go, “oh, yeah, it's fine. It's accessible.”

This is my actually bugbear. Just generally just not with drag, just is the phrase “fully accessible”. People go “it’s fully accessible” because [Pk makes noise of agreement] fully accessible is not a concept that exists because fully accessible to to who? You know, it can be fully wheelchair accessible to a certain point. You have to have very wide doors because of some wheelchairs are very big. You have to have a changing rooms toilet to be fully wheelchair accessible. You everything just needs to be wheelchair accessible, but then you go, well, okay, so have you got Braille on things? Have you got, you know, accessible for people with visual impairments?

And then with neurodivergence and people getting overwhelmed and, you know, make sure that this person's visible, but then someone's like, oh, there's too much going on here. You know, so you can't have one single experience that is fully accessible. You've got to have universal design that gives different options for accessing something, because it's just so that's that's my kind of big red flag going “Oh yeah. We’re fully accessible.” Yeah. That's I know you’re not then. Yeah.

And toilets is the big thing as well you know, you go Oh, Yes but you can't use the toilet or the or places that you know go back to drag that will use, we're going to use the disabled toilets as a changing rooms cause it’s a nice big space. Yeah. Well what about-

Pk Kulasegram

- Disabled people?

LH Macbeth

Disabled people need the toilet! You know, and it's. Yeah.

And that's interesting thing with the intersection as well because obviously the disabled toilet is often by default the, the gender neutral toilet. It means I as a non-binary person, in a way it's a good thing cause I don't have to. I kind of feel not quite right using either set of gendered toilets. I tend to, you know, with a choice like that, use the ladies because it smells better and it's cleaner.

[Sarah chuckles and then Pk makes an mmm noise]

Yeah but often I’m using the disabled and like that’s the gender neutral. Then, you know, I've, other kind of people who are scared about being challenged in the ‘wrong’ inverted commas, as you will. Well, you know, the ‘wrong’ gender toilet, use the disabled. I think, you know, as a disabled person, yeah come and use my toilet, but it's not the solution. And it means that, you know, those toilets are even more oversubscribed, which is...

SARAH STEPHENSON-HUNTER

Yeah, I mean obviously that's a big hot topic at the minute isn't it? With-

LH MACBETH

-Yes.

SARAH STEPHENSON-HUNTER

And that is something as a result of the Supreme Court ruling and how people are interpreting about it. Oh yeah. Just use the disabled toilet. Well disabled people, we don’t mind. In some ways you want to be inclusive, but -

LH MACBETH

Yeah.

SARAH STEPHENSON-HUNTER

- the disabled toilets exist for a reason.

LH MACBETH

Absolutely. Whatever situation, if someone is not feeling safe, they can use my space if it feels safer for them, but you know, and something that doesn't get talked of a lot, disabled people struggle with incontinence and that kind of thing. And so, it’s you know, actually getting a toilet quickly can often be a really important thing. That's a horrible thing to struggle with when you are out in public. I don’t have a lot of experience of it, but I, you know, I do have a little.

But the other thing obviously with- about that from a different point of view is the whole third space issue of, oh, well, yeah, they can use, everyone can just, anyone who’s - doesn't present in an absolute binary way can just use the disabled toilets. And it's like, well, actually that's not that's not the answer to that social issue to create a third space, even if- even apart from the issue of that third space being oversubscribed, it's not- it's not a solution.

PK KULASEGRAM

On the issues of just like disabled toilets, almost by default, are non-gendered spaces, which reinforces this really odd idea of disabled people as not having a gender, which has been talked about from the other point of view. Right? Which is just like if that's your only non-gendered space, why is it disabled people don't get gender?

LH MACBETH

Yeah.

PK KULASEGRAM

And similarly, I know, when we do shows, we push for every toilet just gets labelled gender neutral.

LH MACBETH

Yeah.

PK KULASEGRAM

Which tends to work. Like the issue is if people- if there are urinals in place, then what happens is you have a default men’s because very few people want to go where the urinals are, but you have men using the sort of women’s and/or masculine people to use the, and that gets complicated. But I think it - it is an important. People just want to pee in peace, I think is the end of thing and like, wash their hands and I don't really.

LH MACBETH

Yeah.

PK KULASEGRAM

And it doesn't need to be any more complicated than that. Like if you want to create truly sort of equitable spaces, you could get rid of urinals because they're gross anyway. Like, I tend to use the gents and it's very fascinating.

LH MACBETH

Yeah.

PK KULASEGRAM

Because I get in women's, I get shouted at a lot, even pre facial hair and all that stuff like when I still had boobs that were quite large and like, the nice thing about gents is everyone's so, well, the weird thing is that everyone's so aggressively trying to not be seen as gay because, oh, God forbid!

LH MACBETH

Yeah!

PK KULASEGRAM

That they make really aggressive, non-eye contact and no one's looking at each other or like, chatting to each other. You're just kind of getting in, getting out.

And it's nice because then no one challenges my existence because they're so busy trying to not be perceived or perceive me. But it's also very bizarre. Where you are just like, imagine if we could just do the same thing that you do in like the women's toilets where you just like, have a chat.

LH MACBETH

Yeah.

PK KULASEGRAM

While you're waiting in line. And like, I forgot, the men don't do this once and did this to a random man, ‘cos I couldn't get the hair- hand dryer to work and the sort of look of fear on his face. And then the sort of softening going, this is how your hand works. And it was just like…

LH MACBETH

Yeah

PK KULASEGRAM

It was funny because it changed the whole vibe of the like room from this very like, fearful place to, oh, oh, this is okay, actually. And I'm not saying we should be friends with everyone in the loo but like…

LH MACBETH

Yeah.

SARAH STEPHENSON-HUNTER

Yeah, we've talked quite a bit about the practical logistics of being a performer. I think the interesting thing as well is obviously representation is important. You've mentioned a few drag kings who are full time wheelchair users. I guess it would be really great if you could just talk a bit about how you incorporate that obvious aspect to your disability, like mentioned crutches. Obviously, the audience will see those crutches, those that can, I wouldn't as a blind person. But in terms of be incorporating that into your act.

LH MACBETH

Yeah, that's- that's always been really, really important to me. You know, my- the mobility aids that I use are not there's me and there's, you know, whatever fabulous costumes and and then oh sorry, I'm you know of that I now got to use got to use my crutches. I see particularly a lot of my acts are on crutches and I can move around more with them, which is also good. But um. But they all have costumes.

So I was I was at Dundee Pride yesterday and I was doing one where both my crutches turned into umbrellas. It's actually version of- I think it's Tom Holland lip sync that does Singing in the Rain and then Umbrellas?

PK KULASEGRAM

Yeah

LH MACBETH

I use a cover version of it, but yeah, so it's kind of a drag version of that. And I made them into these big umbrellas.

I've got other ones. Where I kind of do crutch reveals. So I've got one that's got an outer thing on it. And then it's, it uses magnet tape and I pull the, pull the outer layer away, and then there’s kind of there’s something else underneath on the crutch. I tend to start when I'm trying to plan like an act or a costume of like or what like what will my crutches be? How will they come into it?

I did a look I had to do, Poseidon. Well that’s like, okay, well that's got a trident there that one of them is. Yeah, I originally I kind of had one was a cocktail umbrella. I had to do a cocktail look. So I always try and, you know, this is part of, you know, mobility aids, you know, should be regarded really as part of someone's body, which is why you shouldn't touch them and sit on them and that kind of thing without, without, consent.

[Sarah makes noise of agreement]

And so, you know, therefore they get costumes and they get better costumes than I do a lot of the time. But uh…

SARAH STEPHENSON-HUNTER

I'm sure that's not true, Lizzy.

LH MACBETH

I'm um just because I start thinking about that and then was like, oh, I need to wear something as well on my- on my sort of fleshy body. I’ve got another one that’s Dick Van Dyke where they're like- they’re chimney sweeps?

[Pk chuckles]

Wheelchairs are harder to dress up because of the amount of moving parts. And you got cushion covers and and the spoke things and, you know, it's absolutely. Yeah. Important to me. This is not like an additional apology and like, oh, if only I could just not have this this would be better wouldn't it? It's like, no, this is intrinsic.

I’m getting quite good at like balancing on my crutches and doing kind of, you know, almost acrobatic kind of things. And my only worry is that occasionally when people don't Realise that I do use them because I need them primarily.

SARAH STEPHENSON-HUNTER

Oh, they think they’re just a prop.

LH MACBETH

Yeah. And I've had them with the umbrellas like ,oh, so you've made so are those umbrellas and so I didn’t. Oh, then you also need those crutches. Yes!

And it's why, you know, the flip side of representation always sort of try and really encourage people to to please, please not use anything that is a mobility aid of some description as just a prop. Like people, occasionally have straight jackets in their acts and that kind of thing and that, actually that's something that, you know, not used now but has historically been used as genuinely and can have trauma associated with it.

Or, you know, someone with a cane or something. I go, “oh, that's nice. It's another disabled performer!” And go, “oh no, it's not they’re- they’re just using it for effect. So I do encourage people to not not do that because then the visibility you know that it's there because that's my- the biggest thing. Like I went into, I went into drag.

Sorry, I have ADHD. So I-I go on tangents.

PK KULASEGRAM

That’s okay, I understand.

LH MACBETH

I kind of went into drag, in a kind of like, oh, I'm going to have to okay, I'm on crutches but I'll see what I can learn. And that's not what it's about. I don’t want to be like a disabled performer. And now my bios do sort of describe me as a disabled performer, not because I think that's the most important thing about me, but because it's an intrinsic thing about me. Partly it's good to to highlight for casting so people kind of know you know, certainly as an actor. I’ve- occasionally I’ve like kind of showed up and they’ve gone, “oh yeah, you use a wheelchair. Yeah no but we've got steps here, I don’t know what to do about that.”

So it's partly because of that, but partly because of that visibility. When I get messages, when I get people coming up going I’m a wheelchair user, does that, does this mean that I could maybe do that? Seeing someone else that kind of uses crutches like that, actually just using them on stage and not just kind of going, well, I'll leave them. I'll see if I could do without them. But when I get messages like that, I screenshot all of them and I've got like a folder of like long nice messages that I've had. It's what really kind of keeps you going, particularly you know, when it has been a bit of a bad day for accessibility and inclusion and erm from that point of view, I love that.

And I think representation really is everything. And just doing it, I mean, I do end uptalking a lot about being disabled, but my acts aren't really about disbabilty- I’ve one that's like a Disability Pride act, but they’re not about that it’s just that they're about me and I'm using them, you know, in the same way that someone else's act isn't about their arm. They have their arm with them, and they're using their arm. But that's not what the act is about. So I don't generally - I know some people do. You know, they focus on doing quite disability focused acts and that's, you know, that's great. I love watching that as well.

But for me, generally, I just want to do something fun or silly or, you know, political from other points of view. And then the fact that I'm using mobility aids is like, oh, and it's just the visibility. It's just the, you know, it isn't in the separate category of disabled performing which is like a slightly different/inferior style. It's just performing. But that's just what I have. And what I use.

SARAH STEPHENSON-HUNTER

On a smaller scale. I'm the same when I'm doing talks. Or… Even when I was- was in music video about two years ago, a sort of metal band and part of that they did actually use a shot of me unfolding my white cane.

LH MACBETH

Yeah.

SARAH STEPHENSON-HUNTER

And actually I was really pleased that something for me, that's just an everyday I- I get my cane out, pop my cane away was in there. Also when I'm doing talks, part of me used to be like, “oh, should I not have my cane on stage?” And now I'm like, well, no, but the white cane isn't me, but it's part of me and what I use.

It was funny at my graduation years ago, though, when I had a long gown on and the white cane just got little reflective strips on. Apparently I looked a bit like Darth Vader, but hey.

LH MACBETH

Amazing.

SARAH STEPHENSON-HUNTER

There is no harm in that. Absolutely. Yeah.

[All laughing]

But I think you’re right, I think representation matters. But I think also having that seen as we’re disabled people, we’re queer people. But we also, are actors, parents.

LH MACBETH

Yes

SARAH STEPHENSON-HUNTER

Whatever we are, our disability and our queerness is just an aspect of who we are.

LH MACBETH

It’s that, it’s that difficult thing It's like it is an important aspect, but also it's not. If I'm doing a piece of web content, it's not gay web- , not I, you know, it's not.

[Pk and Sarah laughing]

It's just in terms of my yeah, my day job stuff. It's what I enjoy about working from home because people don't, I could- I could work with people who don't even know that I have mobility issues because they see my face on Zoom call and or they hear my voice online. So it's in that way, it's not visibility at all, but it's it's difficult.

You want that balance of having representation of visibility and going, “well, that's not all I am. That's not my entire identity.”

The- the more needs you get. Yeah talking about kind of lockdown and everything. I used to do an office-based job where I kept having these issues with mobility and pain and everything. And so I was working from home and that was- that was my adjustment because I had a long-term condition and I was working from home. And so I’d be I’d be at a meet- you know everyone would be around a conference table. And there would be the little laptop in the corner, which was me. And mostly they would remember I was there, but it was very difficult to really be part of that.

And then obviously after lockdown happened and working from home has been normalised, it's suddenly like, oh, that's not a weird thing anymore. Oh yeah, I just work from home and people are like, yeah, you know, my wife is mostly remote working and it's and it's normalized.

I think with anything it's like the more people do it, more people see it and it just tips, okay, that's normal thing to do. And then you just you feel- so it’s just all more inclusive because everyone's… You know, no one's going “oh that's weird isn't it? You, you're working from home and you're in that corner and that's weird. Well that's you’ve got a chair there have you shown me how that works?”

SARAH STEPHENSON-HUNTER

You know, pre-pandemic it was such a battle to get an agreement for somebody to work from home for part of the time. And it's not that- now many, many Covid was horrible. It’s had a lasting effect on the health, mental health, everything. But there were some parts of where it’s like, look, the world didn't collapse because we had to work from home!

LH MACBETH

Yeah, it could show that things could work in a way that you couldn't. Yeah, you wouldn't want to do that on purpose, because as you say, it was devastating in so many ways. But it did. Yeah. At least we can kind of go, “well, that's let's take that good thing at least from it, that we've- let’s take that learning from it.” You know, let’s learn as much as we can from the terrible thing of how we can continue just to make the world better on a continual basis, which is what I just think we should be doing.

[Sarah makes a noise of agreement]

It’s a controversial view, apparently, in this day and age.

SARAH STEPHENSON-HUNTER

Honestly, I mean, PK, don't we? That's a lot about what we talk in our training about people they just don't realise how every day inclusion just helps everybody.

Yeah.

LH MACBETH

Yeah. Because I do, you know, disability awareness training and that kind of thing as well. And one of the- one of the points is that a lot of things that are accessible, they’re there for accessibility also they’re for everyone.

You know, I was- something that I was watching that they kept posting video updates for something.

Okay, well, I'm going to have to work out how to listen to this because I'm in a loud environment. It’s like if they put subtitles, you know, which you think Oh, they're for deaf or hard of hearing people. Yeah. But they’re also for, they can also help so many people. And that's the case with a lot of disability adjustments.

[Sarah makes a noise of agreement]

LH MACBETH

Not that- again, Everything’s got a flip side hasn't it? Because you kind of go but that shouldn't be. It's like the business case for accesibi- I hate the business case for accessibility.

[Pk and Sarah chuckling]

And I have to make it sometimes. And I go, well do you know 20% of people, depending on what figures you look at are disabled, you can make more money if you make sure that your website is screen reader compatible, for example.

I hate it! That's not the point. Your website should be screen reader compatible because there are people who can't read it otherwise. You know, your stuff should be accessible because we live in a society!

[Sarah makes a noise of agreement]

But unfortunately, it doesn't always quite fly and I do sort of have to grit my teeth and go also economically.

[Sarah making noise of agreement]

PK KULASEGRAM

Yeah I think yeah, it's that hard thing of making the business case and being like it all boils down to- to your money and capitalist hellscape etc.etc.. And

LH MACBETH

yeah

PK KULASEGRAM

It's frustrating and always reminds me of that kind of adage of it shouldn't have to affect you for you to care about it, and that shouldn't be a radical statement-

LH MACBETH

Yeah.

PK KULASEGRAM

-To make.

LH MACBETH

It really, shouldn't.

Well, and you starting to see at a certain extent the business case for, what I thought was really interesting when, Wetherspoons said, “oh, no, our toilets, we're not going to police our toilets.” I had a dear friend come from abroad who is trans, who was like, “okay, so Wetherspoons is a safe place for me to go” and I- it's not something I normally associate with Wetherspoons is being a lovely, safe place for queer people like…

[Pk and Sarah making amused noises]

It’s not- it's- I just thought it's really interesting because that decision about their toilets was not made out of compassion or community, or; it was made because that's easier. And it's going to make them more money that way. And it, kind of almost in a way heartened me because I was like, well, maybe people’ll all Realise that- I don’t know if I’m allowed to swear. But, uh.

PK KULASEGRAM

You can swear.

LH MACBETH

Yeah, and people’ll realise being a total dick to trans people just isn't economically viable. And maybe that's why they'll stop doing it. And that's not really why I want them to stop doing it. But if it works.

SARAH STEPHENSON-HUNTER

I mean, it's really interesting because I, I hadn't been in the Wetherspoons for years just because I dunno. I get what they do, but I didn't like a lot of the politics of the guy.

LH MACBETH

Yeah.

SARAH STEPHENSON-HUNTER

But I have to say, in the past month or so I've actually been in quite a big Wetherspoons in Birmingham, visiting a friend. Actually, it was really weird because on the one hand, I felt safe to go to the toilet. I mean, I have another issue, but because I'm blind and my friend is blind and obviously there are some logistics with that but I felt safe in that context. And yet we end up getting chatting to somebody who turned out was quite a Trump supporter. It was a really interesting juxtaposition of-

LH MACBETH

-Yeah-

SARAH STEPHENSON-HUNTER

-everything.

LH MACBETH

Yeah, it is interesting. Yeah. ‘Cos as you say Wetherspoons, you know, I mean the- is it Tim Martin who’s, you know, big Brexiteer.

[Sarah makes noise of agreement]

It’s you know it's also, you know, politically not- not aligned. But I've been in them because they tend to be accessible because they're bigger and there. And it's- and I think that's the- maybe talking about that kind of whole intersection between disability and uh queer identities that obviously talked about with drag.

But a lot of queer venues tend to be smaller, more cramped, less funded, less accessible, and then you kind of end up having to go, well, I need to go. I can't go to that beautiful little queer café that's down in the basement in, you know, in the nice area of town. I will have to go to, like, a Wetherspoons or a, you know, whatever. I'm not singling out necessarily Wetherspoons in particular, but, you know.

[Sarah makes noise of agreement]

Somewhere that I'm not happy with the community in there, but I can- I can get to the toilet and I can order a drink, which is- you do need that. And, you know, products that, all kinds of things that you can get. But really that's the most accessible. But it's not. I think it's really difficult.

SARAH STEPHENSON-HUNTER

What's the example of you give, Pk, of everyday items?

PK KULASEGRAM

Well yeah, they're everyday items that people don't even think about that were accessibility things. So like sliced bread, your electric toothbrush.

LH MACBETH

Yeah.

PK KULASEGRAM

You know, all sorts of things that we just use, even in terms of like the kind of handles you have on different cooking utensils, there all sorts of things that we just, you know, realistically an accessibility items like an electric kettle.

LH MACBETH

Yeah.

PK KULASEGRAM

Right? Like that actually just means that a lot of disabled people can boil water in a safer way and we just take these as, “oh, they're just items of modern convenience.” And I think the thing to remember and as well, I- ‘cos people talk about funding and like, “oh, we've got limited funding and limited resources.” And it's like, yeah, we absolutely do. But often it costs more to try and retrofit accessibility. And to think about it after the fact.

And I think this is the nice thing that we're starting to see in smaller instances as sort of more LGBT spaces return to a kind of grassroots thing. And obviously it's- it's not universal, but there is that bigger discussion on accessibility. How do we make our spaces accessible?

[LH makes noise of agreement]

You know, for disabled queer people who want to come and be in our space, especially when we are working on a shoestring budget, and we can't necessarily be building our own venues.

And I think that is at least more of a conversation. And more people are starting to kind of go, “oh, is your venue accessible?” Like, I know-

LH MACBETH

-Yeah.

PK KULASEGRAM

There were massive issues when one of the only gay clubs in sort of Oxford moved to an inaccessible venue and people were like this is ridiculous. Your previous venue was accessible and it was great because of that. And now you're up a flight of stairs and you just have basically said to a whole section of the LGBT community, I don't care about you.

LH MACBETH

Moving from that accessible to to a non accessible… Is just like what? Not communicating why or? because there's a venue- I mean, I'm not going to name it but there’s a venue in London that had to do that and they had- they had a lot of criticism on the social media and they didn't… I ended up sort of speaking to them and they said, “well, the thing is” basically they were, basically thrown out of their venue. Like they had to move and they couldn't find one.

And they went in and they asked about accessibility. And they looked at, you know, well, we can we’ve got this. And then we've, you know, but they- they were having plans to kind of put in and they had thought about it. And they were talking about that, but they weren't, they weren’t telling anybody in the community about that because they didn't want to look bad by saying, “yes, we're inaccessible.”

So admitting- even though everyone was commenting, saying, “well, I mean you’re down a flight of stairs, it's not, you know, it's not hidden” you’re not like.

So just saying like, this is even if you do sort of try to have that conversation and, and involve people in and, you know, pay for consultancy where possible as well. I think it's- it's again,

[Pk chuckles]

One of the kind of double sided issues. It's just so many things. It's like, well, there’s this But on the other hand, because actually speaking to disabled people about what they need and what they, what works for them and, you know, testing with them and that kind of thing is, is really important.

But, you know, that doesn't mean just every time you have a question, just like email your local, you know, wheelchair user or your local blind person going “oh, what do you think about this?” Like, you've got to- you've got to respect their time as the same time as talking to them.

SARAH STEPHENSON-HUNTER

I mean, I remember having worked for quite a few large organisations in my time and as a JAWS user - that's a screen reader for the listeners’ sake- I think I was probably one of like two screen reader users, honestly!

LH MACBETH

Yeah.

SARAH STEPHENSON-HUNTER

You'd get emails about, can you just check this for the screen reader? And I don't mind, like a couple of page document, just give it a quick look and then you'd get, “oh, we’re, launching a new website, our new partner website.”

And I'm like, wait a minute, there's people out there like yourself, Lizzy who, that's their job. That's what they do professionally. But they're like, “oh, we don't have the budget.” It's like, well, sorry your budget is a choice.

LH MACBETH

Yeah. Your budgets wrong, like it needs to be in the budget. It just needs to. So often you'll have gone oh, you've got the budget for that really fancy logo or you've got the budget for, you know, a launch party. You've got the budg- you know, it's not always the case and particularly with grassroots events it's not. But when you do get into established businesses, you kind of go, you have got the budget. You're just choosing to use that budget for something else. And that's not the same as not having the budget.

SARAH STEPHENSON-HUNTER

Absolutely.

LH MACBETH

And often as you say, like having the budget at the beginning is so much cheaper [LH laughs] than trying to go… You know, particularly you obviously you know the kind of places that’re large enough to kind of get sued and that kind of thing. It's- it's a lot cheaper [LH laughing] to just pay someone for half a day of screen reader, user testing, or whatever the thing is that you need to be tested.

PK KULASEGRAM

Yeah. And it's easier to fix an earlier stage, right? If you've got a project and especially with tech and you’re- you've been developing it, and then you only sort of bring it in right at the end, sometimes that can be just massive amounts of code that you’re having to like rework because you just haven’t done it. And it’s like if you’d brought this in earlier, that would have been less of a problem.

It's kind of like if you have a leak in your roof and you just ignore it in the hope that maybe it will just magically solve itself, it's just going to end up with like hundreds of thousands of pounds worth of repair, rather than maybe a few hundred pounds, depending on the thing. You know, the sooner you act the better.

And I think also there is something that struck me as you were talking about that kind of communication piece, right? Because there is -ah- something to be said for managing the expectations. And I think often companies are afraid to say anything because they're like, “oh, no, like they’ll just think we are wildly inaccessible” and you can say, look, we know this is less than ideal. This is what we're doing about it.

And again, you can- if you're not sure how to communicate that message, hire someone who knows how to communicate that message because even if it seems like it's an expense, realistic, how much time are you wasting on social media not being able to communicate this well? How much time, how much money are you losing because people are writing you off as not for them?

So actually, if you think about the stuff that you're not seeing, spending that much money on a consultant, on someone who can help you with the comms messaging and going, “yep ,we are doing X. So we're moving this venue because we've been thrown out of our old venue. We're trying to look for an accessible venue, we’re struggling. This is what we've had to do in the meantime. We know it's not perfect ,but we're working on it.”

And I think that actually goes a long way to building trust and also say- signalling that, yeah, we do care about this, but also our hands are tied in a real way. And for sure you're still going to get some people who are like, that's not good enough. But the vast majority of people will appreciate you saying: this is the situation, this is what we're trying to do about it.

LH MACBETH

And the people saying, that's not good enough, can still see that it's not good enough. Like they can still- the wheelchair kind of example is just always a really easy example. But yeah, you can see that's there is a flight of stairs. Them saying I'm really sorry ,there is a flight of stairs it's not going to go, oh, I hadn't hadn't realised I was just going to try and just sort of levitate and see what happened. You know, it's you've got to.

[Pk Laughing]

PK KULASEGRAM

I’ll bring my magic carpet.

LH MACBETH

Yeah.

PK KULASEGRAM

You know?

LH MACBETH

It’s just, just the, the kind of. Yeah, unwillingness for anyone just can say this is not perfect. And it's fin- like things aren't perfect and things are a work in progress and things, you know? Yeah. I'd rather have something than nothing but it's. Yeah, the kind of trying to hide the fact that you’re inaccessible just makes things even more inaccessible.

SARAH STEPHENSON-HUNTER

I mean, it strikes me, you know, obviously, this podcast, in our work and Simply Equality is about the intersection of disability and- and LGBT identity and a lot of it, a lot of what we talked about, I'm going to use that horrible word “compromise.”

LH MACBETH

Yeah.

SARAH STEPHENSON-HUNTER

We have to live lives of compromise. I don't know how you found that, Lizzy ,in terms of tension, like in your drag work, you love drag. You obviously want to do more of it but you have to compromise where you do it.

LH MACBETH

Yeah, I think it's absolutely right. And I think the amount of times I'm sitting on, I'm so uncomfortable here and I'm so I have like 50 things around me like text my pals are going- about going fucks sake they don’t you know, they haven’t got this, and, not only have they got flight of stairs, but the bar downstairs isn't open, so I so I have to somehow go upstairs with crutches and then bring a drink back down. Or, you know, I’m like texting back. But, you know, I'm not complaining about every last thing.

But then I think what people see a lot is people complaining because they sort of almost don't see the disabled person until the disabled person making a complaint and then they're like, “oh, they're just always complaining. And they can never compromise.”

And it's like, do you know, I have come so far along compromising [Sarah makes noise of agreement] to eventually go, but can you not just please?

Like with the captions on the video that we’re saying about yesterday. A group of people had been saying, you know, but can you just put on auto captions? Even if you don't check the captions, if you don't write anything out, you know, it's it's not a good, but can you maybe just do that? And so can you -Can we maybe just have this one little? and then ugh you’re always complaining. It's like, no, I'm not. I have compromised on 50 things today.

And you know, it's just- it's a spoon thing as well as an it is the energy thing and it's the constant kind of just not sure not being sure and not and I think that's- sorry for another the tangent- but the whole thing about again, that intersection.

There’s is a quote from somebody who I meant to look up before this actually: it's that you’re only allowed one weird.

[Sarah makes a hmmph noise of agreement]

And if you're queer, you're sort of already weird. And or, if you're disabled, you’re already. And if you, you go, you can't bring in another one. That's almost like, that's greedy or whatever you can’t. Or, people will accept kind of one, you go okay, well, you can be gay, but you can you be normal gay?

[Sarah makes sound of amusement]

Or, you know, you can. Yes. Okay. You can be a wheelchair user, but you have to be straight. We have to - as soon as you kind of get these multiple intersecting thing, people think you're being difficult somehow. It’s like, I'm not actually doing any of this out of some kind of, you know, it's not a choice, it’s not a – you know- I've seen people I've also got, you know, people of colour or they're- it's society that has made these things the weird thing. Not me.

So I'm just being me. They pile on top of each other. It does become somewhat exponentially more difficult to the more weirds that you have, you know.

SARAH STEPHENSON-HUNTER

How weird can you be?

LH MACBETH

Yeah. And as- shout out to Weird Pride day, which is, by the way, on my birthday which is the 4th of March every year.

[Pk chuckles]

SARAH STEPHENSON-HUNTER

Well there is such a thing is Weird Pride?

LH MACBETH

Yeah-

SARAH STEPHENSON-HUNTER

-I did not know this!

LH MACBETH

Yeah, Weird Pride It's um it's quite a small movement, but it's. Yeah. Look it up. It’s on – as I say – it’s on the 4th of March. Which I just, I happen to know because it is my birthday, which I, I enjoy that.

[Pk makes an amused noise]

And, yeah, they just, I think they have little marches or and events and they just, you know, it's for, you know, neurodivergent people. You know anyone that’s sat in uh, you know just celebrate being weird. Fantastic.

PK KULASEGRAM

That’s pretty great.

LH MACBETH

Fantastic concept.

PK KULASEGRAM

Sometimes it does feel like no matter what you do, it's too much or too wrong. Just because it's what socie- society says. But I think there is also, as you said, there's always the flip side, right? Which is just and we talk about this in a lot of work that we do, which is if you're bothering to tell someone that they could do better, even if you're just saying, hey, could you just have an accessible entrance? Could you just put on the auto captions?

You’re not having a go at them. You're saying, look, I genuinely think you are capable of doing better, and I want you to be the best that you could be. And I think if as organisations and individuals, we can get into that frame of mind when someone is bothering to take the time to complain at us, and for sure, like people are more likely to complain than leave positive feedback, they're still using a limited resources to be like, come on, you can do better and I believe in you.

LH MACBETH

Yeah, I think that's such, such a good point. And I think we've kind of made it to queer venues as well of like, the reason that I have taken time and energy to come and raise this thing about access is because I like what you're doing. I want to come to your show. I want to engage with what you're doing. I, you know, I want I want to be part of it, and it's good, and I like it. And can you just make this little change so that I can get in the door or I can actually? I think that's so important.

Like, I'm not making complaints to gosh I think places I don't use or you know, I'm not you know, I wouldn't randomly complain to someone I'm never going to a place. I'm never going to go anyway. The complaint is even the wrong word. It's feedback, which is a wanky word, I know.

But it's, you know, I think to see it as a complaint, all the time. I mean. You know, it’s here’s some help that can make things easier for people. Here's the thing. If you do this, you won't get as many complaints is essentially what that is saying as well. But yeah, it is it's because I like you. It's because I want to, you know, I want to be part of it. And that's a good thing. Yeah.

SARAH STEPHENSON-HUNTER

Really, really good point. You've talked about your personal journey. You know, being queer, being disabled, being a journey of different stages. I'm just wondering if you had any words of wisdom or thoughts, observations , anybody listening to this that still on that journey of acceptance with, their queer and disability identity is whether you have any thoughts or only reflections on that, Lizzy.

LH MACBETH

Yeah. I mean, I think I dunno, I think I suspect so it's always a journey. I think in terms of the disability side of things, you know, I do I talk a lot about Disability Pride and the concept of Pride and what Pride really is and particularly the why isn’t there a Straight Pride kind of crowd. It's like pride is something that comes out of having had the flip side, which is shame, feeling either ashamed of yourself for being made to feel shameful. And so you have Pride there to counteract that shame.

And I think particularly Disability Pride, you're going to go, why are you proud? Do you not want to not need a wheelchair? And it's like, yeah, I would much rather I could go running and I could, you know, it's not that I'm proud that, you know, in that sense, but I'm proud of who I am, you know, in a way that kind of counteract that shame. So I think disability pride is important. Disability joy is really important.

But I suppose one of the things I would say to people is it's okay if you're not feeling that. It's okay if you're also feeling sad and overwhelmed and trying to deal with. In particularly like diagnoses or changes and that kind of thing. Like, don't- you know. I know I've spoken to people who are going to go, well, I know I should be feeling the pride and the joy. Like, you don't have to go straight to feeling pride and joy and being visible and marching on. You can- you've got to go through that.

You know- make it sound like it’s linear, but you've got to go through that journey as well. And you can and it's not linear. And you will always have days where it's like, I wish that this wasn't. And then other days where it's like, yeah, I'm going to, I'm going to I've got spoons today and I'm going to, I'm going to be proud.

And, and I think a similar thing with queer identities, obviously it's different because I wouldn't, you know, there's no part of would want to be different, in that sense. And it's obviously different, different from that point of view .But it's also still okay.

You know, I tend to sit on Trans Day visibility. I, you know, often post kind of going it's also okay to not be visible. Like okay if you're just not because there isn't a lot of chat, I think particularly with the kind of trans about and particularly for later life about kind of going through that journey your- yourself. And it's a lot about accepting other people and how to speak to your trans friends and that kind of thing.

But actually that side of going, well, am I this and is it that and at what point do I say this and what point can I you know? It is hard. And I think that, you know, I think it's one of the good things of the internet is that, you know, there’re people out there that can be, you can reach out to, and what not, and.

But I think the other thing is to hold on to the, the joy of it and the reason that, you know, like when I go out and I do drag and I’m I just, I just I come home smiling and I and that's partly from the performing. And partly from, I think that kind of inhabiting that very masculine, identity for the evening. And I just it brings me that joy.

And this is the big kind of thing, I like to call it weaponised joy, because joy is something that whatever they do that you can't legislate for and you can't go, I don't want you to be joyful. I don't want you to enjoy this thing. It's like, well, you can't actually, you can't do that. You can't.

There's actually a great quote that I talk about in a bit of spoken word that I do, which is when the 19, like the 1967 Sexual Offenses Act passed, which was the thing that sort of decriminalised, homosexuality, kind of. And there's a quote from the guy who, who sponsored the bill. Who was like trying to get it through, saying, “this is- this is not a cause for celebration or jubilation and any form of ostentatious behaviour would be utterly distasteful.”

And it's like, yes, you could okay- we're not going to sentence you to life imprisonment for having gay sex, but you don't be happy about it. You better not be happy about that. I think be ostentatious and joyful as much as possible, because that's not. You can even legislate what toilet you can use. You can legislate, but you can’t. And you can make it harder to feel joy obviously you know, it's particularly they really are doing that.

But I think experiencing and just grabbing those moments of joy and going, yes, this is a good thing. And this is something that somewhat nobody can actually stop that. They can fight it, but you can't legislate against joy. And I think that's that's a very important point as well.

SARAH STEPHENSON-HUNTER

What a perfect place to end. Before we do. Where can people find you, Lizzy ,if they want to find out more about your work?

LH MACBETH

So mostly I'm on Instagram. You can find me either Himish_Macbeth. H-I-M-I-S-H underscore M-A-C-B-E-T-H that's my drag account. Or you can find me at LH_Macbeth which is kind of more of my kind of normal acting. If you find either one of them, you know they’re- they're interlinked.

I am also on Facebook, as Himish Macbeth because I'm quite old, but, I don't know if people- anyone really uses Facebook anymore. I am on there if you're not an Instagram user.

SARAH STEPHENSON-HUNTER

Amazing. Well. Thank you so much, Lizzy. Its been an absolute pleasure.

LH MACBETH

Thank you so much for having me on. It's been amazing to speak to you both.

PK KULASEGRAM

Yeah. Thank you so much.

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