The Simply Equality podcast
An open, honest and on occasions humourous exploration of the lived realities of disabled and LGBT+ people. In each episode I will talk to someone who is both disabled and LGBT+ and discuss the challenges they face and how they seek to live their best life.
The Simply Equality podcast
New year, new season! Jennie Williams
A new year, the perfect time to launch season 2 of my podcast!! I know it's been some time coming but hopefully you'll agree it's worth the wait!!
For the first episode of this new season I speak to Jennie Williams, the CEO of a UK based disability led organisation called EnhancetheUK.
I first met Jennie when we were on a panel together last year and what can I say, we hit it off immediately!!! Join me as I talk with her about the work of EnhancetheUK and her own experiences of having multiple disabilities as well as exploring her sexuality. jenny's particular passion is breaking down the taboos around disability and sex and so do be aware that we do talk about issues around access to sexual expression for disabled people particularly those in care homes as well as the subject of dating whilst disabled!!
Hello, and welcome to the Simply Equality Podcast, the podcast that seeks to foreground the lived experiences of disabled and LGBT people. My name is Sarah, and I'm your host, and I'm really, really glad that you stuck with me. I know that it's been a while since I released some episodes. Thank you to those of you that have reached out on social media and said when when are we getting some more? Well, thanks for the wait. And I hope the wait will be worth it. For those of you that are new, this is a podcast that seeks to foreground the lived experiences of disabled and LGBT people. In a moment, we'll get on with the first guest of this new season. But I just wanted to say if you did want to contact me, you can do so via info@simplyequality.com. I'm on Instagram at simply equality UK on Twitter @SarahSHequality. So as as I tend to say, enough of the preamble, and let's get on with our first guest. Welcome to another episode of The simply equality podcast. I am really, really, really pleased today to have with me a very special guest in this wonderful world of COVID. Somebody that I haven't met yet, but I've had quite a few discussions with I feel like I already know her quite well. Jenny, welcome, introduce yourself.
Jenny Williams:Hello. I feel like we're friends, now. I know, it's cool. Well actually only we've only actually chatted on Zoom for me three times. But those chats have been very long. And very personal and great. And that's how I like to talk to people. And say thank you for having me on. Yes, I am Jenny Williams, and I am CEO of the charity Enhance The UK.
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:So for those that don't know, do you want to tell us a little bit, we'll start with the formal stuff, tell us a bit about Enhance The UK.
Jenny Williams:Okay, I'll try and be as formal as I can be Sarah. I don't do very well with it. Okay, so Enhance The UK is a user charity, which means that all of us have impairments ourselves. And I actually founded and set the charity up myself 12 years ago, 13 years ago, the idea kind of came probably longer than longer than that more like 15-16. And really, that was through working in social care. I've always worked in social care since I was 17, working as a carer, and it was really apparent to me when I was working on people's care plans. And I was talking to people that who just were still grownups, you know, adults working with adults at work were in single beds, nothing in people's care plans were, it was in no information about relationship status, sexuality, sexual orientation, nothing. And that was really, really a big thing for me, because I've always been somebody who has been quite open about sex, open about my sexuality. And not only that, just I like feeling being in a loving relationship. I like intimacy. And I was thinking hang on a minute, these things are important to me, these things surely have to be important to other people we know they are suddenly just because you have a disability and you're in a care home or care setting, so just isn't important anymore. So it was a hard sale. I was working for large disability, charity at the time. I won't name them but it was a hard sell. I- and every time I spoke about this, I tried to set up Ann Summer's parties, It was- it just got shut down. And to the point actually, it was a memo was sent round and emails around saying do not speak to Jenny Williams, to the managers about this. Oh my gosh. And and at that point, I there was kind of going through redundancy and I thought you know what I'm going to, I'd already set Enhance up in my spare time and I'd already been working on it in my spare time, and evenings and weekends and redundancy came up and I thought you know what, I'm going to take that redundancy and jump in with both feet. There's very little funding out there, any about around sex and disability. So I kind of set the charity up like a social enterprise. And so what we do is which is equally as important is that we run training, which is more corporate training around disability awareness and that is very much looking at how to best communicate with somebody who's got a disability. And that is so important that the two run parallel. So the campaign side of things, the sex and disability side of things called undressing disability. And I really believe that the two have to run parallel, because there is no point empowering disabled people, yes, you know, go out there and start dating and meeting people. And, you know, and doing all this buying the sex toys and doing whatever it is you want to do. And then they try and do that and people get, I can't actually get in, and I can't access this building. Or if I can access- access it, nobody can communicate effectively with me, or this information isn't, or I can't open this box of a sex toy, or whatever it is. So non disabled people have to be educated. And then I think that disability is seen as a very understandably, very dry, boring stuff. And when I set it up, hopefully I'm not that dry and boring. It depends on who's speaking to, I probably can be, but I just thought I want people to learn the way I enjoyed learning. And that isn't by having statistics shoved down my throat around disability doesn't help me, what helps me as a disabled woman, is that people can communicate with me effectively and know how to do that. Because no, PowerPoint is allowed in any of our training. It's very interactive. And people have fun that, you know, it's informative, but ultimately, hopefully, for people, and that's what the feedback we've had for the years is, it's fun, and we have a laugh while we're learning.
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:Wow, I mean, already, you've met, you've mentioned that two words that aren't normally associated with disabilities, sex, and fun. I mean, my gosh,
Jenny Williams:Hey, we dare to think it Sarah,
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:Disabled people having sex and having fun. Honestly, the world will stop spinning.
Jenny Williams:It stopped plenty of times when we enter a room, I'll tell you that.
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:And I love the fact you say no PowerPoint because-
Jenny Williams:I just think that I know, for me, I know PowerPoint has its place. Absolutely. But, and as I said, Absolutely, absolute- well now it's it's, it's, it's a certain, you know, if you're working in HR or something, you're putting something out statistics are important. I'm not saying that they're not. But they're not important. If you've got, for example, a person with severe communication impairment that's coming into visit your building, what's important is you know, how to effectively, with confidence, communicate with that person. And if you can't communicate, have the confidence to say, I'm really struggling to be able to communicate with you, I need to look at alternative things and work out and that's what we do in our training. We, we try and get rid of the ego that people have. And I say egos, like it's a really negative thing. But people are led by their ego because they're trying to do the right thing a lot of the time and they don't want to be back. They don't embarrass someone, they don't want to make someone feel uncomfortable. So ego leads us in everything that we do, including communicating. fantastic organisation, I've had a very little bit of experience, but I love the work you do and go can check out the organisation people. So that's, that's, that's professionally, Jenny. But what about you? So this, this, this podcast is all about people in the foreground and the lived experiences of people who are both disabled and LGBT. So since you've already mentioned the fact you're a disabled woman, do you want to just talk a bit about you know, however you identify in terms of your disability? Yes, I would like to show off by got multiple things. I've got well, I've got a- I've got degenerative hereditary hearing loss, which means I started wearing hearing aids when I was eight. So I wear hearing aids in both ears. They're quite powerful hearing aids. I'm pretty good lip reader. And so I rely heavily on that. People often ask again, like how, what percentage of you've got a hearing? I don't even know that so why, I don't why that would help you. All I need to hear, and you need to know is you need to look at me when you're speaking to me and stop mumbling. And it's so yes. So I've also got a heart condition called Long QT which is also very sexy name of sudden death syndrome. Gosh. I know, it's good, isn't it? Which actually, I don't actually have many effects from that. But it's there is the serious one. And my whole family pretty much have that and sadly my grandmother died giving birth to my mum, of Long QT. And my daughter has it and it runs through our family. And I also have a An autoimmune disease called Lichen Sclerosus. Not many people have heard of that. Lots of people should hear about that because they say it affects 1 in 70 women. And I think that's 1 of 70 women that actually speak about it. It's probably a lot more than that. And it affects my vagina, it affects my vulva. And it's probably out everything. It's the thing that affects my life the most, in much as the pain that it can cause me and how I live and how I live my life.
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:Wow. So yeah, quite a combination.
Jenny Williams:Yeah, like I said, I'm a show off. I probably got more, you know, out of everything actually, it's probably my bunions that bother me the most. I don't know if anyone's listening, but I am hot. I am one sexy mama.
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:So So obviously, you know, as as we're talking now, and as I've got to speak to you, you're fairly confident about your disability, you're fairly open about talking about it. But I'm guessing that's been a bit of a journey for you through life.
Jenny Williams:I know it's interesting, isn't it? It's like my Lichen Sclerosus diagnosis was only in this last year. And I have had a real journey with that. And I'm still going through that. I'm kind of grieving. Grieving my body. It's just not how it used to be, grieving the fact that I can't easily have penetrative sex anymore. And I so I set this charity up years ago for my future self. Which is, which is strange. Going- growing up again, with my with- what I forgot to leave out as well, it's probably thing that affected me the most when I was younger, is I'm dyslexic, and I was diag-. And people say dyslexic very easily nowadays, when they can't spell a word or something. So I'm dyslexic. But my dyslexia hugely impacted me from from a very young age, really struggled a school academically. And it really affects my memory, and it affects processing things. But that was in the, you know, early 80s, when it wasn't really understood or spoken about very much. So I if I was a school now 100%, I would have got the support that I needed. Definitely. I just didn't get it then. So actually, I turned to what I knew best, and that was socialising, flirting, you know, being sociable, to kind of overcome and overcompensate really, for what I felt was my lack of intelligence. I always put that on myself, I'm not very, very, very bright. Coming from teacher, you know, I my parents both are teachers who were very supportive. But- and always trying to change that my way of thinking, but I, you know, I'm 42 now, and I probably still got that pretty, pretty strong feeling about myself, interestingly,
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:isn't that really, excuse me, it's not really interesting that when you hear the word disability, you know, regardless of whether or not you have any sort of disability, that that that does affect your education, people don't think of disabled people as being intelligent or academic or, or bright or clever.
Jenny Williams:Yeah, and I think that when I was growing up, it was easier to hang everything on my hearing loss, because it was like, Okay, I wear hearing aids, even though I didn't really like wearing my hearing aids, whereas with dyslexia, I, like I said, I didn't get the help and support I needed. And so I was just made to believe, really, you know, in the school system, let me down that I was, you know, I was a bit silly. And so, you know, and even the extra support that I had at school, you know, it was very much Oh, you know, Jenny Williams got hearing loss. She's, you know, hearing aid user rather than Jenny Williams, has got dyslexia, AND she's got a hearing loss. So these two things combined, she needs that extra support. And I think, oh, you know what I could have, so I just switched off at quite early age and said, I can't do that. I know that I can't do that. So therefore, I'm not going to really bother. And I really limit- limited myself and I probably still do as an adult because I didn't have the skills. I've got a very, very brilliant team that work around me and know me really well. And if there's a big report that needs to be written, I don't do that. No, I bring people in to do that. You know.
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:Wow, I think that's really interesting, isn't it that here you are now 42 And you've still got that legacy of that that view of yourself that was reinforced, you know, here you are, CEO of a of a charity, you've got staff you do all this great stuff. And yet still within yourself think you're a bit a bit, a bit silly and not clever.
Jenny Williams:Definitely 100% Sarah, I think that about myself all the time and, you know, coming to actually sit down again, reports a really good example, to sit down and write a report is my idea of hell. I just can't do it, I struggle so much or working out things mathematically, I really struggle, it's awful. Put me on a stage to, you know, to present something in front of 3000 people, sure I'm going to be nervous, but I'm okay. You know, I've been on, you know, a few TV shows and do radio and you know, things like that again, of course, you know, the arrogance that I wasn't nervous. Absolutely. But I'm okay. Because I know my subject quite well. And hopefully, I'm a good teacher. And I can do that. So I think it's like academia, equates and equals to intelligence. Certainly not from my parents as I said, but certainly that was the world in which I grew up and the school system that embedded that in me, and I think there are a lot of people certainly my age that still- still think like that and have imposter syndrome, for sure.
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:I mean, God Yeah, I mean, come on. I work at the University of Oxford. I'm like, How the hell did I end up there? My gosh
Jenny Williams:Imposter Syndrome is real
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:Honestly, it's absolutely real and I think as disabled people, you know, if you do get to any level of perceived influence, importance, or anything, then you think, should I be here? Should I be doing this? Should someone else? Am I qualified? Yeah, absolutely. It's like, no, God. Yeah, we are. Okay, so that's the sort of snapshot of your identity as a disabled woman. Obviously, the Olivet- other element, this podcast is about people who are LGBTQ plus, how how, how would you describe, define yourself if you have to in terms of your sexual orientation, sexual identity?
Jenny Williams:Again, do you know what- it I think it's a fascinating thing, because at 42, still now, I've never necessarily identified as anything particularly other than straight, even though my first- and it was only very recently that we will have I've done lots of lots of talks and LGBTQ plus panels, well not straight. That's not entirely totally true. But I'm not really known quite how to identify myself, so not really ever put a label on myself. But it wasn't until recently I thought, actually, my first, and I always thought this is when I lost my virginity. And I thought back and forth, actually, my first sexual experience was with a girl at school. And it was only recently I thought, well, that's really my first sexual experience. So that really was kind of when I lost my virginity if you like, but we still very much again, I don't think it's, I think the generations below us don't think of it in the same way, but certainly a child of the 80s/90s it was penetrative sex means lose virginity, and boy and girl. So that's why, so that that's what I always had in my head. But from a very young age, I knew that that was something I wanted to do. And then had a few sexual experiences with women throughout all girls then because obviously, you know, young, but primarily, primarily with guys, and I just didn't really ever have anyone to speak to about that. And I just remember when I was about 17-18 my biggest thing was I don't want my friends to think that I fancy them. Really? That was my Yeah, I don't want my friends to think that I fancy them because they're gonna feel really uncomfortable around me. And I didn't fancy them, they were my mates. You know? Absolutely didn't um, you know, and so and then I'm I met this girl that I was working with a care home so I think I was about 17-18 then and then started seeing seeing her a little bit. But again, there was this kind of sh- a lot around it. Absolutely. Yeah, there's a lot of secrecy around it and shame on my part, like, not ashamed of that it was doing it but more kind of, I didn't know what this meant. I didn't know what this meant for me. I know and I was definitely- and it's interesting speaking to you because I it's normally the other way around. I normally interview people on podcasts and I now we're having this conversation. I'm like, really spoken about this? Yeah, I'm like this but um, yeah, and I think a big thing of not wanting my mum and dad to find out. My dad a great, you know, I think that a lot of people would find it hard to get their heads around. And I think parents now, so I live in Brighton. So it's a given, you know that she probably won't be straight. And you can say be whoever you want to be, you know, just want you to be happy. That's all they care about. Of course, they'd be like that, but these conversations We didn't have fluid conversations, we didn't have open conversations about my gender identity, or how we identify, or which pronouns we want to use like that, that didn't exist. So, so yeah, so I think that kind of like through my 20s I had sexual experiences with women, but never "do you want to come home and meet my parents?" It was never, you know, it was never that it was like that always happened with with the boys. And that's okay, because I think that I would probably now have had to put a label on myself. But actually, I say that the lovely girl that I was seeing up until I met my current partner, I now say to her who's very, you know, very loud and proud and gay and she will [indistinct]
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:your what? Sorry, you're pan, you will okay. Yeah, yeah.[indistinct] What am I?! You're pan, you're pan
Jenny Williams:Okay, yeah I'm pan. Um, but I've never really, I've never really thought to have to put a label on myself, you know, as such, bisexual never really fitted well with me because I've never been one to- I can look at women and think I find I see you're very attractive. I find you attractive visually to look at I think I wish I could have your legs or your clothes or whatever it is but I've never thought oh no I really fancy you, in the way I do with with men, with women it's always been somebody that I've connected with,
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:So on an emotional- on that emotional
Jenny Williams:Emotional and sexual, definitely sexually as well. The women that I- in my life that I have been in a relationship, or you know, something's happened between us. They've always been gay. And so I don't know if there's, that's a coincidence, or I've never really thought about it before I'm speaking to you about it. But they've always, they've always been gay and I'm currently with with a man, I've got two children. But I would never like to say now. I guess- I'm straight. I'm living in a straight relationship. Let's face it, most of us. If we could have a magical pass and we could go around sleeping with other people and not have to worry about feelings. Yeah, absolutely. I would take that pass, you know? And so I don't know, I guess I'm, I guess, like, if I had to label myself, I'm pansexual.
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:Yeah. How does that how does that feel?
Jenny Williams:Saying it and putting a label on it? Yeah. Okay, because I guess I've been thinking about it more recently. Um, but it's almost like, Oh, now I want to go out and explore it more.
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:That's between you and your partner. Exactly.
Jenny Williams:I think I don't think Greg will be that happy about that. No, no, no, I'm joking. But I'm quite, I'm quite comf- Yeah, I'm quite comfortable with that, I don't think I've ever been uncomfortable. And most of my friends and my family, not not my family. Actually, my friends and my colleagues know that. It is actually my family that I haven't necessarily ever had that conversation with because it's because I think it would be harder for them, and more a case of like, do I really need to sit and discuss that with my parents, unless it's something that they need? Unless it was sort of, you know, I was in a relationship, and I met someone that I knew I was going to be really serious with. And other than that, I mean, it I have to have that conversation with them.
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:Isn't it interesting, I suppose. There is a question of why do labels matter? And in some ways, okay, if you had to label yourself, you'd probably go pansexual. Does that matter? And I don't know, I have mixed views on those. I think sometimes in the world of disability and LGBT labels can be helpful, but not, not if they sort of have a straight jacket, that sort of pin us in to one particular element.
Jenny Williams:I think I think the same I think for some people, it's great to have a label because it means that you can go you can find your peoples you know, and go yes, that's that's it as me, that's how I feel, that describes me. And that's brilliant because lots of people need that and I know certainly when you know, for example, my diagnosis of Lichen Schelosus, I was just like, oh my god, oh my god, you know, and then found a forum, as depressing as it was, you know, I found my peoples, you know? And I was like, yes. Okay, I can relate to that. And so not just not comparing Lichen Schelosus to sexuality. But you know, it's about finding like minded people that you can have that conversation with. So I understand that labels can be really important for some people. For me, in my instance, I don't really think it's that important. I haven't felt the need to identify as anything. I'm Jen. If I like someone, you know, if I'm single, and I like someone and I fancy them, then let's explore that.
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:I suppose the flip of that is? Now the assumption would be you're Jen, you're the guy you have children, therefore, you're straight. Absolutely. And obviously, that's very raising to people who are pansexual, bisexual. But that that's just the sort of assumption that's made. Oh, well, man plus woman, children equals heterosexual.
Jenny Williams:Definitely. And that's what people would definitely think about me. And the thing is, I'm sounding really nonchalant about it. But actually, I'm not because there's definitely that, that embedded thing about, you know, we spoke before about dyslexia and how that's kind of embedded in me, I still think that there's that that kind of embedded thing in me about the kind of shame that comes with that about people understanding me that- that kind of 80s feeling of the 80s child, you know? That you were, you were gay, you were straight, or you were straight, you were gay, or you were bisexual, at a push and that's being greedy. There were your three options, you know, like, you didn't have a lot more than that. And I just remember thinking, Well, I know, we're not completely straight. I know, I'm not gay. And I know, I'm not bisexual, but by definition, you fancy both. And as I said, I don't particularly feel like that, so yeah I suppose that is when labels are handy, because I just like well I don't know what I am, I just if I like someone and make a connection, sex is great, then that's what I do. So...
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:So as, as, as somebody obviously, you know, in your professional world, you, as you said, you know, part of the work of Enhance The UK is looking at disabled people experiencing and expressing their sexual and gender identity? How much- How much do you feel that you know that that in itself is a barrier, but then getting into the realms of the LGBTQ plus world as another barrier on top of that?
Jenny Williams:I think can be a huge barrier for lots of different reasons. I think one of them is that especially disabled people that have had to have support with their parents primarily. There's this feeling, well, we, you know, we get a lot of people writing into us via the love lounge, which is somewhere that people can write in with their problems, problem page. And we spend a lot of time really thinking about how we write back and advise people. And we have a team of people working and one of them, you know, quite often reoccurring thing that people are in, it's like, I don't know how to come out on my, my parents, because I feel like it's another thing that I've got to put on them. So I think there's an element of that. A lot of parents like infantilize their grown up disabled children to very much keep them as young, you know, young children that they wouldn't possibly be interested in sex, let alone sex with the same, you know, the same sex, you know, so, um, so that's another thing that it's just not ever thought about. If people aren't having, if people have been opted out by their parents of inclusive sex education, if they're in especially school, a lot of young people aren't even getting that information and so on. So I think that there are, and then also, you've got physical access issues. Places just aren't for people particularly they've got physical disabilities, they're not as accessible. So there's things like speed dating events and things like that. Most of the time, they're not really that accessible. They're kind of quirky little venues or the lighting is really bad if you've got a visual impairment or the acoustics are terrible if you've got a hearing impairment, and you- so just think just Just a no from me, like that's just not gonna happen. I remember I went on a date actually with somebody on ti- I met my partner on Tinder, and went on a date with somebody on Tinder and we he arranged it in a pub but I didn't know and I thought "Oh, God. It's gonna be dark, bloody hell" And there was a there was a candle and I was moving this candle around when he was speaking. And he goes "What are you doing?" and I told him that I'm actually a hearing aid user and I didn't put it on my profile. Yeah, actually hearing aid user so I really need to like see your lips to be able to hear.
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:How did he respond to that?
Jenny Williams:Well you could see him going read my lips to hear? What? You know, I just literally, and I said I lipread so I need to be able to see. I need to see to be able to hear you too, you know, so I can and he kind of got it but he was he was a bit of a Wally anyway, so that wasn't gonna go anywhere. But but it was like it was that I let him make, you know, arrange the date is actually normally I would be saying let's go here because I know it's light, the acoustics are good. Yep. And I could communicate better or let's go. I arrange stupidly wants to go on a dog walk with someone because I thought that would be a really good idea, and in the light, It was a first date. Actually, that wasn't good. Because we were walking side by side.
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:Yeah I was just gonna say- Yeah, a bit.
Jenny Williams:Yeah, exactly what a stupid thing to do. But I was like, that's cool. We'll be in close proximity. He was a he was a mumbler, Sarah, he was a mumbler. Honestly, yeah, these mumblers with a beard as well. So it's things like that. I think it's about so you've got kind of all those issues as well, you know, and
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:I mean, how many- how much- Sorry to interrupt, I mean, how much do you think that sort of LGBTQ plus identities and issues are recognised, acknowledged within the world of disability anyway?
Jenny Williams:Oh, I don't think- I don't think they are greatly. I don't think sex. And though I kind of went off on a bit of a tangent with that bit it's like, because I think that sex and dating quite often isn't any way. And then so to add the layer, as you said, to the LGBTQ plus community, I think, you know, that that is unfathomable. So for some, for some people, some, you know, some use it again, let's think of the care home setting. Somebody in that needs need support. So I think you know, you've got your basics, sex, disability, dating, masturbating, sex toys, anything like that. Is barely thought about recorded, spoken about, if you need care, if you need care, then to add on your sexual orientation, sexuality on top of that is really, really difficult, you know, to have any extra support for people who don't need care because obviously not everybody does. I think it's, again, about how easily accessible this information is for people, again, how easily accessible venues are for people. And a lot of the male gay community can be quite famously known for being quite, very visual and quite vain at times. And a lot of, you know, a lot of people we know, say, I just don't ever get, you know, men just aren't interested in me, because I don't look the way that I should look, you know, I'm all beefed up or whatever it is, so we have a lot of people saying that there's a real visual, whereas, this is a real generalisation here, but we tend to hear that a lot of women say, actually, that's not so much an issue for us, women, because women will quite often say, oh I can be laughed into bed. And so a lot of women that we know, or people who identify as women particularly say, actually, you know, that's not so much of an issue for us. That's it, that's a bit, not easier, that's not the word. But that's not as much of an issue. So. But again, I'm really generalising here. And that's just from what people you know, the, over the years, the examples that we've had people write in to us and talk about through the love lounge or wanting advice or whatever. But I think dating and anything like that, to do with that is hard, anyway, can be- can be hard. When you add on a layer of disability, it can be harder, when you add on another layer of LGBTQ plus it can be really hard. I mean, we could we- it doesn't happen.
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:We could have a whole other podcast episode on that. Which perhaps we will do one day, but yeah, it's it's just interesting, isn't it? Again, it's about assumptions and attitudes about, you know, why- why can't disabled people have their sexual needs met? And why can't that be with the same sex or, you know, those sort of different genders? It's just, again, assumptions.
Jenny Williams:Well, I really, it's really interesting. So let- go not too much detail. We've just recently written some training, and it's been accredited, and it's the only training in the country that is specifically around teaching care staff around sexuality. And, and we're really excited about it. I ran this training. So I taught and I trained some of the trainers, which we don't normally do, but it was pandemic so we can't get into the care home. And some of the trainers said- these are managers, said we've got a little list of questions. We need to get back to you and ask. I said absolutely, send them over to me. First question that was sent over to me is, what if a service user wants to date someone of the same sex? That was the first question that there was a problem? And so really, obviously is like, what would happen if somebody wants you to date somebody that wasn't the same? What's the difference here? But I think that tells you everything, answers everything, really, of just how problematic that is- can be seen. Especially if you are in a setting where you need support.
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:I mean, it's great that obviously, you've got that that training programme, but isn't it- Isn't it just indicative that, you know, here you are, you've done it, but you're the first that we know of, you know, the only accredited training? And there should be so much more of it?
Jenny Williams:Well, it should be so much more of it. And it's got to be implemented? Now, you know, and there's no, there's no one really pushing that. The CQC say very nicely, the care, you know, Care Commission say, right, yes, this, this is what people should be doing, care home should be doing, etc. And no-one's really pushing and making that happen. And I think there's something that we that we need to touch on as well is, is the loneliness. There's so many people that can that can come with that, especially if you are- I'm sure there's lots of people who identify as LGBTQ plus, that feel lonely, can feel lonely at times. And then again, layer on top of that, if you've got an impairment that stops you, and inhibits you to be able to go out and meet people and, and even, even when there are people in care home, I know we keep coming back to care homes, but I think this is I feel really passionate about this, because I know that so many people are trapped. And I'd love it that if people were able to listen to a podcast, because it's only care homes, and all the care homes that we're working with, actually, they have got a file on, so people can't on the internet can't watch porn, can't go on a lot of the websites because it's blocked. So it's basically got children- child blocks on them. Yeah. And my conversation has been to do these care home guys. Why? Why is this happening? And every single time the answer is- I'm going to ask you, Sarah, what do you think the answer might be?
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:I guess they're saying because there's some vulnerable adults, and we need to protect them from harm.
Jenny Williams:Do you know what, that's exactly what I thought. No, the answer has been because just in case staff watch porn- really? On their break. What you think- Well, if that's if that's what you're worried about, you should seriously think about who you're employing,
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:I was gonna say, that's a staff issue, not- not, not the residents issue.
Jenny Williams:But then it's infringing, you know, massively on people's basic human rights, and this is a human right. And so again, this is a huge, it's a huge subject, which could go on and on. But they need to have the right to- right to have this information, right to be able to be who they want to be.
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:I mean, it is it is fascinating, because obviously, as as you know, I am a disabled, blind, trans woman, that whole thing of dating and obviously, you know, physical dating is, is tricky. I met my wife online, and although online is provisionally better, again, there's issues there about uploading photos, and can you see the photos of other people? Do you disclose? You know, if even on a well, I, I claire-, my wife Claire and I met on a lesbian dating website, but do you put in there that you're disabled? Do you not? I did, because I just have to- Oh I thought I can't, I can't be dealing with getting so far down this discussion and these sort of, you know, finding out about somebody, and then you tell them you're disabled and they don't want to know, I thought I've had enough of this. So I did start putting it on there. But again, you know, even thinking the world of online would be easier, which it is. But even that has its inherent barriers and sort of things you have to think about.
Jenny Williams:Absolutely. And you know what it sounds like I'm being quite negative, you know, saying all these problems and problems, you know, there are, but equally, you know, lots and lots and lots of people that I know, are in happy relationships. And I know lots of lots of people that are in unhappy relationships, but in relationships nonetheless. But you know, it's not to say that people can't be, and not everybody wants to be in a relationship either, some people just want to go around and have fun. It can happen and I think that it's- disclosing is a really big question. And again, we get asked about, it's got to be a personal- it's got to be a personal choice, there isn't a right or wrong answer. A lot of people with physical disabilities say more you know what I feel like I need to disclose from the get go because it's really fair, somebody then arranges a date and I can't get in or whatever. I didn't disclose because the reason I didn't disclose is because people find hearing loss really confusing. A bit like sight loss, you're blind or you can see. You're deaf, or you can hear, you know, that in in, like, straight or you're gay and that middle ground, and I say I'm like, like bisexual, the deaf world, you know, like, oh, yeah, in the middle. But it's like, you know, people got really confused. And I, I'm quite- you Google me, Jenny Williams, and I come up pretty much instantly. And, you know, and it's sexy. And there's one photo of somebody shouting into my ear with a megaphone with me with my hearing aids, you know, just ignoring it. A bit of a tongue in cheek photo. And I was talking to a guy I spoke to for about four years ago before I met Greg, and I was talking to some guy chat chat chat, and he said, What do you do any he obviously Googled me, and saw that, saw hearing aid, and then ghosted me completely. And I was like, you know, we call it, I don't know, if I get away with saying this, but we call it the tosser filter? We do, you know? Because it's like, well there you go, not for me. Yeah. That's fine. And I think that it's got to be a very, it's got to be a personal choice, whether you choose to disclose and how comfortable you feel. But at the same time, it's not- it- you do at some point, you know, owe it to that person that you're speaking to, to have an honest conversation, I believe. Because, you know, if your impairment will impact in your life, and that other person's life, they have a right to know that as well. If they're worth their salt, they want to meet you. And if they don't like you, it's because they just don't like you know, that you're not about your impairment, you know,
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:Absolutely, absolutely. Gosh, we could, we could talk for hours, but but don't worry listeners, we won't. So just, just generally then from your, from your perspective, personally, professionally, do you have any sort of sense of what you think the disability and LGBTQ plus community can learn from each other respectively?
Jenny Williams:That's a good, that's a good question. I just think that talking more is important, you know, thinking about, you know, if you're putting on an LGBTQ plus event, thinking about access, and not just taking a- taking a book, actually understanding what that access means. Is your website accessible? Is the information you're putting out- is that accessible? You know, have you got if you've got your information interpreted into BSL, for example, I understand not everyone's got money, I do understand that. But Sarah, when you and I met, we talked to on a panel, that charity had very little money. And they were so accessible, I was so impressed by everything that they did. And I think that was one of- that was a rare, a rare occurrence. So I think that learning about how to make your platforms or whatever you do, your information more accessible, and your venues, your events, whatever. And you're going to get a lot more people disabled people getting involved and being there and and talking to you, and you get customers instantly. If you're a pub or whatever. So communication is the key.
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:Absolutely. And I would just echo Yeah, that event where we met, that panel, it was fantastic. And for those that say it's about money, yeah, that that was a small charity. I was really impressed by... so when we did the sort of background setup, the interpreters came on. And they were like, you know, my name is x. And I look like this. And I'm wearing this. And just for me, that little thing of describing how somebody looks and what they're wearing. Might seem quite trivial. And you know, I'm not going to make any assumptions based on that. But it's just there's just good to know, so again, just little things that so yeah, thanks Jenny. So if people want to find out more about what I was gonna say you but perhaps more about the work that you do-
Jenny Williams:Yeah I'm boring, don't find out about me.
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:She's not boring, honestly! Where can people find out more and things like you've mentioned the love lounge? Where can people find out more?
Jenny Williams:Yeah if you want to go on to our website, it's at enhancetheuk.org. I'd really encourage people just sign up to our undressing disability hub. We call it the sexy little sibling to LinkedIn. So you can fill out your profile. There's loads of information on there about sex and disability, it's free, we really encourage you able to share information with each other, share resources. If you have any events you can advertise. It's really set up so people can connect working and talk to each other. So, and the love lounge also that we've mentioned, we're on Twitter. It depends if it's around just sex and disability@undressingdisability. If you go onto our website, all our information is all there.
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:Jenny, thank you. Thank you for your honesty, your humour, and just just just keep doing the great stuff you do.
Jenny Williams:Oh, thank you so much for having me on.