Changemaker Mark Robinson, Author, Black on Madison Avenue

What does it take to truly see the people and stories that have too often gone unnoticed?

In this episode of Agency for Change, Lyn Wineman welcomes Mark Robinson, marketing leader and author of Black on Madison Avenue, for an honest and thought-provoking conversation about power, opportunity, and identity in the advertising industry.

Drawing on more than four decades of experience at some of the world’s most influential agencies, Mark shares how his career began, the barriers he encountered, and why diversity efforts in advertising have historically fallen short. He explores the idea of invisibility in the workplace, the innovation born out of necessity in multicultural marketing, and what real progress requires from today’s leaders.

You'll hear powerful stories from Mark’s journey, insights on how organizations can move beyond comfort and familiarity, and a reminder that meaningful change starts with curiosity, courage, and a willingness to do things differently.

Connect with Mark at: 

·       Mark’s Writing Website – https://markrobinson-writing.com/

·       Mark’s Business Website – https://www.marksrobinson.com/

·       Purchase Mark’s books – https://markrobinson-writing.com/books

Chapters

• 0:00 Welcome And Episode Focus
• 0:38 Introducing Mark Robinson And Book
• 2:30 Early Career And First Breakthrough
• 4:35 Internships, AI, And Access
• 5:08 Diversity Framed As Charity
• 7:12 Has Progress Really Happened
• 8:12 Why Write The Book
• 9:31 Two Core Themes Of The Book
• 11:25 Innovations Born From Constraint
• 12:06 Career Stories: Barriers And Breakthroughs
• 15:28 New Product Launches And Impact
• 16:52 Bias From Both Sides
• 18:35 State Of Diversity: Gut Check
• 19:43 Advice For Leaders And Hiring
• 22:15 Rethinking Requirements And Talent
• 24:05 Culture, Risk, And Standing Out
• 26:12 What’s Next: Archiving Black Ads
• 28:00 Where To Find The Book

Transcript

Connect with Mark at: 

·       Mark’s Writing Website – https://markrobinson-writing.com/

·       Mark’s Business Website – https://www.marksrobinson.com/

·       Purchase Mark’s books – https://markrobinson-writing.com/books

Mark Robinson: 0:01

Feel the fear and do it anyway.

Announcer: 0:06

Welcome to Agency for Change, a podcast from KidGlov that brings you the stories of change makers who are actively working to improve our community. In every episode, we'll meet with people who are making a lasting impact in the places we call home.

Lyn Wineman: 0:30

Hey everyone, welcome back to the Agency for Change podcast. This is Lyn Wineman, president and chief strategist of KidGlov. Today's episode is centered on a book that pulls back the curtain on an industry many of us think we know. And that's because I know many of our listeners are in the marketing and advertising industry. Black on Madison Avenue isn't just a memoir, it's a firsthand account of what it's been like to navigate power, opportunity, and identity in the advertising world. So my guest is Mark Robinson. He's the author of the book and also a marketing leader who spent more than four decades inside some of the most influential advertising agencies in the biz. And in this conversation, we're going to dig into the stories behind the book, talk about what's changed and quite frankly, what hasn't, and give some advice to leaders who need to understand what it's going to take to make their organizations more inclusive. Mark, welcome to the podcast. 

Mark Robinson: 1:44

Thank you, Lyn. Thank you for inviting me onto the program.

Lyn Wineman: 1:49

Absolutely. So I'd love to have you start by telling us, Mark, a bit about your background and your journey through the world of advertising because it is an interesting field to journey through, I would say, for anyone, but I think you have a special story.

Mark Robinson: 2:08

Well, my advertising seduction began in college when an alum came back to the campus to talk about what he did for a living. And it was advertising legend Jim Jordan. Oh, yeah. He talked about uh the advertising business, and I just fell in love right then and there and said, this is what I want to do. And I I've always been fascinated by what influences people and what motivates people's behavior, you know, whether it's positive influences or negative influences, what are the triggers that makes people do what they do? And uh turns out that marketing is a good path for pursuing that curiosity and that skill set.

Lyn Wineman: 2:54

I love the way you put that because I can relate your seduction into the field of advertising, right? I I thought I wanted to be an actor and then decided I didn't want to be a starving actor. And I write, and I thought I wanted to be a writer, and then I couldn't quite see myself writing all day. And somebody brought up to me the idea of advertising, which just seemed like the perfect combination between creativity and business and psychology. And I'd have to say it has stuck with me for an entire career as well. So I'd love to hear, Mark, what was it like stepping into the industry at the time that you did? Because things have changed. And what stands out to you about your experience?

Mark Robinson: 3:50

Well, it was back in the summer of 1977, uh, which was the summer between my junior and senior year in school, and the uh the MATE program, which is the minority advertising internship program that was uh sponsored by the Four A's, the American Association of Advertising Agencies. And I was invited to be an intern in the program that summer. And it is not hyperbole to say that that internship was the magic key that opened the door to the advertising business for me. I mean, literally everything that I've been able to accomplish in my career is a direct result of having that opportunity at that moment.

Lyn Wineman: 4:35

You know, I'm so glad that you said that, Mark, because one thing that we're seeing in the industry right now is that the combination of AI and VAs, as well as a lot of advertising and marketing people working remotely has really cut back on the number of internships, right? And if we're gonna build that bench strength, keeping those internship opportunities available is important. But that's a topic for another day. So from your perspective, because I know your book is on being black in Madison Avenue and some of the stories that you face, some of the obstacles that you faced. I'm really curious what has shaped the conversation about diversity in advertising over the years?

Mark Robinson: 5:30

Well, historically, the conversation around diversity and advertising has always been anchored in the perspective that the industry is doing a good deed by being open to diversity. They were doing a favor for minorities by creating certain programs and handing a handful of candidates an opportunity to come into the business. There was never any consideration whatsoever that perhaps having people of color working in advertising was actually a good thing for the business, that it was a good thing for the agency. You know, the concept simply never occurred to anybody. And because of that, pretty much all of the diversity initiatives that you see in the business are focused on entry-level opportunity, bringing people in at the start, and never any consideration of why aren't we diversifying senior management positions? You know, um, if diversity is a good thing, then it should be at every level within the organization.

Lyn Wineman: 6:38

Wow. That's a that's a great point, uh, Mark. And as you look at like where we are today compared to when you started in the summer of 72, I think you said it almost started.

Mark Robinson: 6:53

77.

Lyn Wineman: 6:53

77. It almost sounded like you were starting a rock song there when you uh were telling that story. But um where are we today? Like, have we made progress? Are I'm sure there's areas, I hope there's areas where we've progressed, but I I also know there's areas that we haven't.

Mark Robinson: 7:14

I've had colleagues that have gotten very angry with me because they insist the ad industry has solved its diversity problems. Um that, yeah, sure, it used to be very bad, but everything is much better now. And, you know, of course, that's not really true. You know, black representation in ad agencies is modestly better than it was 50 years ago. It'd be almost impossible for it not to be better. Right. But at the same time, it still lags significantly behind representation in the overall population, representation in the overall adult workforce. You know, if African Americans, for example, are 13% of the total population, but they're only 5% of the advertising workforce.

Lyn Wineman: 8:01

Yeah, that's a big issue, right? But I'm even curious. So, I mean, it's one thing to recognize an issue is happening, another thing to write the book about it. What like was the jumping off point where you were like, I've got to let more people know what's going on?

Mark Robinson: 8:20

Well, Black on Madison Avenue, my my book, you know, it's it started out kind of as a handful of anecdotes of my own experiences in advertising. Uh, you know, a collection of interesting stories that I had about my life and my career. But as I started to build it as a book, yeah, I began to see that it was really, you know, more of a jumping-off point for telling a larger story that was, you know, based on broader issues than just anecdotes about my career. And so I started looking at creating a conversation around issues that are bigger than just me and my own experiences. And that's what the book tries to accomplish is use me as a jumping-off point for larger, broader, more relatable stories and issues about people, um, you know, minority professionals in general.

Lyn Wineman: 9:17

Yeah. So, Mark, you sent me an advanced manuscript, which I'm really finding to be extremely interesting. As people buy the book, read the book, what are some of the key takeaways they're going to find?

Mark Robinson: 9:31

Well, I think there are there are two key themes in the book. Uh the first is that people of color who work in advertising are invisible. People don't see us at all. We're either a complete non-entity unless our presence is thrust upon others. Uh and even then, people don't really see us. They see their expectation of us. They see what they, you know, have their own, you know, internally created perceptions of of us. And uh they don't see us when we're not there. They don't uh they don't register the absence of us when we're not there. You know, when there isn't one single minority in the room, there's nobody saying, well, how come there are no minorities here? Right.

And then this the second theme is that necessity is the mother of invention. And that that becomes a a real operating premise in multicultural marketing because minority agencies they don't get the budgets that mainstream agencies get. They don't get the tools and the resources that mainstream agencies have. So a lot of the marketing tactics that we deploy are do-it-yourself. Yeah. And, you know, what can we create to replace those expensive tools and resources and budgets that we're never going to have? Right. And what you'll find is that minority agencies and multicultural marketing have been the inventor of a lot of very innovative marketing practices that the mainstream eventually adopts, you know, sometime after we've been doing it for a while.

Lyn Wineman: 11:18

Right. And claims it as their own idea, I imagine. Of course. Can you give me some examples of that, Mark?

Mark Robinson: 11:25

Experiential marketing. Yeah. That's that's something that has been uh a mainstay of multicultural marketing for a long, long time. Influencer marketing is something that that we have leveraged with gatekeepers in communities of color.

Lyn Wineman: 11:46

Yeah. Mark, under the heading of seeing somebody, I'd actually like to talk a little bit about your career. I know that, you know, summer of 77, that was a minute ago. Tell us a bit more, you know, what what your experiences were growing up in the industry.

Mark Robinson: 12:08

I'll start with the very first job interview I had at after graduating college. And the very first job I won't name the agency, but uh I met with the director of personnel. And you know, I was looking to get a job in account management.

And she said to me, I'm sorry, but we don't hire Negroes in account management.

Lyn Wineman: 12:36

Wow, somebody actually said that out loud. I guess it was the 70s, right? But hard to imagine.

Mark Robinson: 12:43

You said I'd be happy to set up an interview for you in some other department, but account management are the people that interface directly with our clients, and we don't have that. And you know, for some reason I said, well, thank you very much. But if there isn't going to be an opportunity to interview in account management, I'm just gonna have to look elsewhere.

It took a minute, but I did finally find an agency that you know recognized the opportunity and the potential and made it all happen.

Lyn Wineman: 13:14

Yeah, I know you worked for some big agencies over the years, Mark.

Mark Robinson: 13:18

Oh, yeah. I worked for for Lintos, for Gray Advertising. Yeah, um, you know, I worked with BBDO.

Lyn Wineman: 13:25

The legends, those are the big legends, right? That we all hear about. Yeah.

Mark Robinson: 13:31

And in the early part of my career, I was fortunate to uh sort of focus on new product development, um, which is a real interesting aspect of marketing, is to take something that is simply the spark of of a you know someone's imagination or or or their strategic analysis of the marketplace and see that all the way through the process until there's an actual product on the shelf. And I I I was able to be part of the development and launch of seven successful new products in my career, all of which have been leaders in their categories, some of which really transformed their categories. Products like fancy feast cat food.

Lyn Wineman: 14:16

Oh, I yeah, that's a big one. We all know it, right? We all know it. Yeah.

Mark Robinson: 14:21

So I I was very fortunate to uh have the opportunity to see the way the the whole marketing spectrum works in new product development.

Lyn Wineman: 14:31

That's great. Mark, you shared some anecdotes, but I'd love to hear are there any particular stories in the book that you'd like to share that really kind of give us a feel for what you went through?

Mark Robinson: 14:46

Well, there are so many different stories, you know. I have to sort of edit in my head what would be a fun one to share. But ironically, when I made the decision to sort of transition my career from the mainstream agencies to multicultural marketing, I interviewed at a minority-owned agency with the president of the agency, and I was really excited about coming to work there and making that big change in my career. And he interviewed me and said, Frankly, I don't think you'd be right here. I don't think you're black enough.

Lyn Wineman: 15:24

Oh my goodness.

Mark Robinson: 15:25

I almost did a spit take in the interview. I said, Are you kidding me? I never imagined that I would face the kind of prejudice that I confronted at the beginning of my career, now in this context. Um, but he said, Well, you've spent too many years at mainstream Madison Avenue agencies. We don't know how to get you to unlearn that stuff.

Lyn Wineman: 15:54

Oh, wow. Who would have thought, right? Yes. Did they end up hiring you or did you end up looking at the next opportunity?

Mark Robinson: 16:03

I walked away from the interview, and a year went by with me just sort of stewing over this thing. And after a year passed, I wrote him a letter saying, I think that you're wrong, and I want to come in for another conversation and convince you why you're wrong. And I got a phone call back from the executive assistant to the CEO, and she said, the CEO would like you to come in to talk to him. So I came in, met with the CEO, and he told me about that he was aware, he got my letter, he was aware of the whole situation that had happened a year before. He said, and that's why I fired him. Oh, wow. He said, I can't have people in my organization who think like that. He said, I need the very best people. I don't care about any of those other considerations. I just want the very best people. And so we sat and that interview actually lasted three hours.

Lyn Wineman: 17:07

That's a long interview.

Mark Robinson: 17:09

Yes. Um, we just talked about everything, and at the end of the interview, he offered me a job.

Lyn Wineman: 17:15

Wow, that's a great story. That's a on so many different levels. So, Mark, earlier in our conversation, you mentioned that you get angry because you have people telling you right now that the diversity issue in advertising is fixed. And we all know that isn't true, but what's a gut check for us on the state of diversity in the advertising industry today?

Mark Robinson: 17:40

Well, things are, in terms of the statistics, things are modestly better. Okay. Um, there's a a quote from Whitney Young, who was the executive director of the uh National Urban League, that was in a Time magazine interview in the in 1969. And his line was, things were bad, they're better now, they need to get better. And that simple line to me is the essential truth of the matter. They were bad, they're better now, they still need to get better.

Lyn Wineman: 18:14

Yeah. So, Mark, what insights or advice would you have for agencies and leaders, maybe leaders like myself at Kid Glove, that want to build a workplace where diversity truly thrives?

Mark Robinson: 18:31

Well, doing things that have worked before, doing things that have been successful, those habits they make us feel safe. They make us feel comfortable. But we're not in the business of feeling safe and comfortable. We're not going to stand out from our competition by being just like them. We're not going to be winners.

Lyn Wineman: 18:54

Wow, Mark, how many times do we say that to our clients, but then turn around and be guilty of the same thing? Wow. And I'm sorry I cut you off there, but it's like I I can think of today, even I had the conversation with a client about standing out, being different, doing things differently, taking a risk, you know, not just getting stuck in the same rut. But yet when it comes to our hiring practices in our own workplaces, our own culture, our own policies, what are we doing? Yeah.

Mark Robinson: 19:30

Yeah. I mean, it's an old cliche that an advertising agency's only true asset is people.

And so we have to ask ourselves, are the people that I have capable of taking me places I've never been before? Wow. And if they're not capable of taking you someplace you've never been before, then you need to bring in some different people.

Lyn Wineman: 19:54

Yeah, yeah. Mark, I'm gonna say, moment of vulnerability, which I do often, you know, I can think of times in the past when Kid Glove has been guilty of that. There was, you know, as a startup agency, there was a time that when I decided I needed to hire someone, I generally knew someone that would fit the position. So instead of going through the time and trouble of posting the position, accepting resumes, interviewing candidates, I would make a phone call and say, Hey, person, you and I have worked together in the past in a different area. I'm building something pretty special over here. I've got this open role. Why don't you come on over? And when that is your hiring practice, you certainly are not opening the doors. I think we also found maybe maybe about five years ago, you know, in our quest to have a more equitable workplace, we were complaining about the fact that we weren't getting candidates from diverse backgrounds. Yet we were requiring three years of agency experience for all of our open positions. So if there's not diversity in the field, and that's the field that we are recruiting from, what are we gonna get? Right. Like I think, I think once again, of so many times I've said to clients, if you do what you've always done, you're gonna get what you've always got, right? And it's a simple quote, but that's the truth. Like, I think there's little hidden things all over the place that maybe you don't realize are holding you back.

Mark Robinson: 21:35

Yeah. Now I'll take that example that you just gave of having to have agency experience for hiring um and tell you you know, one of the most famous commercials in advertising history is the Coca-Cola Hilltop commercial.

But did you know that the song I'd like to buy the world of Coke was written by By their senior VP of music at McCann, and he was hired with zero agency experience. He was a music producer at Motown Records.

Lyn Wineman: 22:12

I did not know that. I thought Don Draper in Mad Men came up with that one. I'm just kidding, just kidding. Actually, I'm gonna tell you this. I have never watched a full episode of Mad Men because for me, it's infuriating to see the way women were treated in that particular series because it was too close to the truth of what happened when I started in the industry, right? And so, yeah, but I do know, I do know that that that particular commercial did come up in an episode of Mad Men.

Mark Robinson: 22:51

So there's a line in one of the episodes of Mad Men where the president of the agency says to Don Draper, Did you know that BBDO just hired their first Negro? And Don Draper's response was, Well, I didn't know that, but I wouldn't want to be that Negro.

Lyn Wineman: 23:07

Oof. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. I don't even know how to respond to that. You rendered me speechless, Mark, and that does not happen very often. So um, all right, I'm gonna move us along here. What I want to ask you next is what's on the horizon for you? I know you've got a couple of books under your belt. You're doing some consulting. What's next?

Mark Robinson: 23:32

Well, the book that I'm working on now for my next book is actually gonna be a coffee table book, a picture book of the best black ads of the last 50 years. Wow. And there's you know, there is no archive, there is no collection of minority advertising that anybody can go search and find, whatever. That kind of a collection doesn't exist. And so I I I felt I had to do this book. And, you know, I also add my own curation for the ads and and sort of give a historical narrative of what was happening in the world and what was happening in the business when these ads came out. Yeah.

Lyn Wineman: 24:15

I respect you if you say no, but I'm curious, can you give us a sampling of some of the ads we might see in the book?

Mark Robinson: 24:22

Well, it evolves over time. In the earliest years, the earliest adopters of advertising to minority consumers were the sin marketers, alcohol and tobacco.

Lyn Wineman: 24:36

Oh, yeah, okay. The sin marketers, gotcha.

Mark Robinson: 24:39

The the wholesome marketers were afraid of backlash and boycotts from southern consumers. But alcohol and tobacco, they didn't care.

Lyn Wineman: 24:48

Yeah, they were going for it. All right. Well, I'm gonna keep an eye out for that book. You'll have to let us know, maybe come back when it's out, because I imagine that it will be beautiful and educational both. So, Mark, for the people who would like to get a hold of a copy of Black on Madison Avenue, where can they find the book? Where can they find more information about you?

Mark Robinson: 25:15

Well, they can find the book pretty much anywhere where you buy books. It's available on Amazon or BarnesandNoble.com. You can go to your local bookstore, and they probably don't have it on the shelf, but they can order it. Nice. Or you can go to my website. Now I've got two websites. One is for my writing, which is markrobinson-writing.com. And the other is my business side, which is marksrobinson.com.

Lyn Wineman: 25:45

Okay. Mark, we'll get links to both of those in the show notes on the KidGlov website as well, for anybody who might be driving or walking or doing all the things we do when we listen to podcasts. Um, Mark, I'm gonna ask you next my favorite question. I've asked it on every episode of Agency for Change. Our listeners know I am inspired by motivational quotes. And having a couple books under your belt, I know you've got something up your sleeve. Could you give us a Mark Robinson original to inspire our listeners?

Mark Robinson: 26:19

Okay. Well, I've got two. Okay. I tell these to people all the time. And the first one is turn left and see what's there.

Lyn Wineman: 26:29

I love it. Turn left and see what's there. I love it.

Mark Robinson: 26:33

Yeah. You know, it just be curious about everything that you pursue there. You know. And and the second quote is feel the fear and do it anyway.

Lyn Wineman: 26:44

Oh, yeah. Yeah, that's a that is a really good one, right? I I often like to say, if it makes you nervous, it's probably the right thing to do. Absolutely.

Particularly in an industry where you want to stand out from the crowd. Mark, I have really loved diving into this conversation with you. I am looking forward to finishing the book. I'd like to just ask you one final question as we wrap up our time together today. What is the most important thing about your work that you would like people to remember?

Mark Robinson: 27:26

Gosh, the most important thing. I think it it creates an opportunity to see people that are often considered invisible. I love that.

Lyn Wineman: 27:39

That's great. Mark, I'm gonna say I fully believe the world needs more people like you, more books like Black on Madison Avenue. I really appreciate you taking time out of your busy schedule to share with us today.

Mark Robinson: 27:54

Oh, it's a pleasure. Thank you for having me on the program.

Announcer: 28:00

We hope you enjoyed today's Agency for Change podcast. To hear all our interviews with those who are making a positive change in our communities, or to nominate a change maker you'd love to hear from, visit kidglov.com at kidglov.com to get in touch. As always, if you like what you've heard today, be sure to rate, review, subscribe, and share. Thanks for listening, and we'll see you next time.