Monica Snyder, the founder of Birdsong.co, is on a mission to help entrepreneurs systemize customer experiences that build relationships and generate revenue.
As an entrepreneur, Monica has a proven track record of growing businesses from 6-figure revenues to 7-figures using her unique combination of marketing strategy and systems design. She developed these skills through building software for Fortune 500 companies and then leaving corporate America to tackle the world of online entrepreneurship.
Once she’s escaped her computer, Monica loves spending time with her data geek husband and energetic children, baking, playing Zelda, and hiking. She also has an impeccable ability to choose fabulous restaurants, which has made her the go-to decision-maker when anyone is hungry.
Intro: Welcome to the Lucky Titan podcast, here you will learn how to fill your favorite platform with tons of your dream customers from some of the world's top entrepreneurs. I'm your host, Josh Tapp now let's get started.
Josh: All right, what is up everybody, Josh Tapp here again and welcome back to the lucky Titan and we're here with Monica Snyder, you guys remember her? I hope you do, I had a really awkward moment we first hopped in where I was like, Hey, are you in somebody, I can Costa Rica, awesome. She's like, No, totally, totally had two women who do something very similar, do you even look the same, which is kind of funny to me. Totally was like, I'll prep for that other lady and then I'm like, Oh my gosh, it's Monica. Why am I so dumb? Anyways, Monica, super excited to have you here. Especially after our conversation, Monica is the rock star when it comes to copywriting and especially when it comes to email marketing and I'm really excited to dive into what she does over at birdsong, she's such a great company, they do a fantastic job at email copywriting in particular. So, Monica, I'm excited to kind of dive into what's been happening for you over the past couple years is you're a part of this new series where we're following up and actually practicing what we preach so first off, say what’s up to everybody, we'll hop in.
Monica: Hello, everybody. So excited to be here, thanks for having me back and yeah, super excited to share the stories and give you guys the goods.
Josh: Well, and you know, if you come back, it's because you're one of my favorites. So that's why we why we bring you back in right. People love your last episode so I'm excited to dive into it today so Monica, when we were first starting our conversation, you were talking about a statistic, I want you to share a statistic, and then your story behind it, because I thought it was so intriguing.
Monica: Yes. So I just found out that 61% of people that do not open your emails, stay subscribed to your email list, because they expect to do some business with you in the future so they want your emails, they want them in your inbox, they're just not quite ready to open them and I was like blown away by that statistic because I was like, Is that really true because I didn't think it was true and then I started thinking I was like, well, I kind of do that with some certain people and I put it on my personal Facebook. Well, I wanted to get a mix of you know, the people that are in the industry that I work with, plus my hometown friends that are not marketers at all right and they all came back and said, Yes, I was floored, I think two people said no, I unsubscribe from everything but
Josh: Oh, you're sticking them but nobody wants to work with you anyways.
Monica: Exactly. Yeah but like over 50 people came and said, Yes and of course I couldn't leave it at that right. I had to find out why, I was like, Why? Why do you do this and I got back several answers one was just, you know, I am subscribed, and I'm waiting for the right timing to buy and I had another person though, that really, I didn't even expect this she told me she's from my hometown, not a marketer she said that her IT department trained her to not open emails, but instead to go to the website, because emails and phishing are such a problem that can't be controlled, to just not even open the email and go directly to the website and that blew my mind. I was like, Oh, I didn't realize that there were people out there training like these other people to like, not even op emails so I found that like mind blowing, so I wanted to share it.
Josh: I'm glad you did because this is and when you first mentioned, I'm like, I want to ask this and tell this to because I 100% believe that the ecosystem has changed and everybody attributes it to being Oh, it's because of COVID and whatnot, right? Which is the big, that's where we're not supposed to say so please don't take me off YouTube but if you look at it this way, it wasn't COVID it was the fact that there has been a shift in the market where social media companies and other marketers have done such a good job of spamming you to be quite honest with ads that you've become used to being advertised to people don't get offended by it anymore and like you said, I'm like, I keep a huge list of subscriptions, or whatever, people sending me emails, because you're right, one day, I'm like, maybe they're gonna have a product I'm interested in, right or sometimes I just like to spy on their copywriting, what are they doing? You know, and I'm just a marketer, but my wife does the same thing and she does not have anything to do with business, right but she has certain people she follows and she's like, I've never bought anything from them but I'm like, well, why do you keep females so maybe they'll have a good deal or something on something in the future right so I completely agree with that and I bet you the number will continue to grow to be a heavy percentage of people so the question then begs the question of, at what point do they decide to buy, right because if they're not opening the email, they're never gonna buy so how are you? How are you bridging that gap?
Monica: With subject lines? That was the number one answer was the subject line and actually, what was interesting is that the non-marketing people call it the headline so they used a different word for it right and I find that fascinating because words matter, especially in copywriting but the headline of the subject line is by far the number one thing and the second thing was the timing so right if you're getting something from your favorite retailer, and you know, it's not the time for you to buy new shoes, or whatever it is, then you're not going to open it but as soon as you are ready to buy new shoes, then that inbox is where people go and I thought that that was really interesting so work on curiosity driven subject lines, those are the best openers for me the best openers for my clients, and just adding that little touch of curiosity gets people to open, which I know was true for you too, right?
Josh: Oh, yeah, yeah and that's why I wanted to actually kind of go back and forth on this because, as most of you know, because you're on my email list, I'm the most inconsistent email because I actually don't outsource that I'm like, I'm gonna write this myself, I probably should outsource it and have somebody stay consistent with you guys but if I want you all to do this, open your email and search my email on it and look at the subject line, because nine out of the 10 emails in there will say quick question that subject line, you all open it, so I just keep doing it. Yes, I get an open rate the other thing, and so I'm in b2b, I'm in the b2b space, we work with businesses and what we found is that if I try to get like, here's like, three tips or whatever, or like, here's this, you know, when it's obvious that it has nothing to do with them personally, they're never going to open it so I always make it the headline more of a, hey, I was thinking about you, or like, Hey, I saw I'd like to connect with this person or something, those sorts of subject lines, they always get opened, because it's more personal, it's something that I would actually say to somebody instead of look at these 10 ways that podcasting will help you grow your business, like nobody cares, right? Maybe they care, they're not going to open it so I'm curious for you, like, do you find that that's the way that headlines work because if so, I'm gonna pat myself on the back like, wow, I just pulled that out of my butt so
Monica: well, it depends on your audience so if your audience is more sophisticated, then quick question and introductions are very, very helpful but if your audience is full of more people new to the space, then they still want those 10 tips, right because they don't know what they don't know and but the people who know what they know, they're like, Yeah, I don't care about what you know, because I already know what I know right, right and so I know more than you right? And so like, why are you in my inbox with this right and or they're just going to open it out of professional curiosity of like, what are you telling people and my telling people the same thing, are we different, right but if you took those 10 tips, and you said, you know, the surprising thing I wasn't sure about is inside, then you can tell your 10 tips with both of those audiences right and so I think it's really, you know, copywriting kind of one on one know who you're speaking to and if your email list is full of all kinds of people, then more Curiosity will get more opens.
Josh: Yeah. What I'm curious if it has to do with the way you build your list, too, because for me, my email list is built of people I have had a conversation with, or they I've spoken at an event so I've created some sort of memorable experience where they can they'll know who I am, even if I email them six months later, right because we had a personal connection or they'll be like, oh, yeah, Josh, I totally forgot about him because they'll Google me or something oh, yeah, I've had a conversation with this guy, where because like, people are constantly telling me, I should be emailing three times a week, right or daily or whatever, right and you might be in that same that same boat, and I'm just kind of curious, would that be overkill for an audience like mine, or that they prefer or they recognize you when I send an email?
Monica: Well, it depends on your goals with email marketing, right so your email marketing is working for you because whatever your goal is, right but if you're trying to get more people to listen or buy something, or that, then yes, the more frequently you email, the more money you will make, I've never not seen that be true so yeah, so it depends on your goals, if your goal is to get more listens, by the way, if you would just, you know, email every week, and then whatever that person wants to hear about, right, they're going to open that and listen to your podcast, because they're going to get the notification through email rather than whatever way, right? If they're subscribed or whatever, it you have people that are subscribed in one place, but not in another so it's just a nice blanket if you want more listeners, but if you want to drive more revenue, get in the inbox more
Josh: love that, write down an idea here, so I don't forget it okay, your spark and all kinds of good ideas here so I'm excited to keep this conversation rolling so I was like, brilliant ideas. I'm like, I've got to get this on paper okay, so I agree with you entirely, especially when it comes to the frequency and that's why I'm I know, I should be emailing more the cadence, I noticed the number one thing that people I don't want to annoy people, I'm not really concerned about annoying people, to be honest with you, my concern is if I email them so much, they're just gonna stop opening them and I'm not like actively growing my email list every day, which I should be doing again so I'm like, for somebody in the b2b space, who probably already has a decent sized list, right because most of our listeners do. Where would you recommend that they would be like, it's good cadence for them again, you know, it's it's good because it depends answers, I understand that but what would you say is like a good general rule for them?
Monica: minimum once a week that's what I recommend is at least one time and try to keep that one consistent because if your audience knows that, you're going to consistently show up in the same place, you know, every time they're going to learn to trust you more consistency equals trust.
Josh: love it, love it, and I would agree with that entirely, it's interesting because, like, in my space, right, I like to spend my space not my space, I have found that there's kind of the networkers right, the people who are gonna send you 15 Different things are gonna have tons of touch points with you and everything, I've never found that I've needed that to keep a relationship going, it's just like once a year, if I reach out to something really valuable, like, Hey, here's a guest for your show, or here's a show for you to go on, or I'm going to this event, you should totally come, we can meet each other, like those sorts of things hold, I guess they hold the value longer in the trust longer, I'm just curious what happened if I did start implementing, hey, I owe weekly touch or something with them, you know?
Monica: Well, you're so that's probably because that's what you like to do. We tend to market the way we want to be marketed to, instead of covering the basis of the different kinds of people who want to be marketed to, right so you are like a very direct to the point, like, you know, you've started the relationship, that's great. Like, let's just keep it right but there are other people who need tons and tons of stories to feel connected to you, there are other people who need like, every little detail, you know, every little question answered, right, like to get to know you better and there are some people who just, you know, they just need the consistency, they need to know you're going to be there over time so there's different kinds of people that need different things for marketing and what we tend to do is mail or market the way that we like to be marketed to so I like the way you like, in all honesty, I know that if I want to make more money and you know, hit my business goals, that I need to cater to more than just me, because I'm also very direct to the point, I mean, we can have a five-minute conversation and be good and like great for a whole yea and I don't need to talk to you again right,
Josh: right but and we meet up again, I get your name wrong, I get that you're not in Costa Rica, and we're still friends, it's just, it's crazy, right?
Monica: Like, that's how I like to function too and it's funny because I lived, I lived in Los Angeles for 10 years, then I moved to the south than to Tennessee and I forgot to give myself an extra 20 minutes every time I walk into a store because everyone here likes to chit chat, they like to have these little nice conversations and I am not a nice conversation kind of girl, I want to know your life history, I want to know your problems, I want to solve them. Like we're going deep, fast if you're having a real conversation with me, I don't care about the weather, it's going to do what it's going to do, right, I want to fix your life real fast so that's how I function but you know, a lot of people know they need that nicety they need that back and forth they, they know they're different kinds of people and so moving actually to Tennessee really helps me realize like, oh, yeah, I should do a little bit more of that friendly chit chat that get to know you with my audience so that they, you know, get to know me a little bit better and it's a little bit more southern friendly than Los Angeles like, ignoring you, like direct.
Josh: It's funny how many people are migrating to those states and they realize it ‘cuz like we're in Idaho, it's that same way people are just so talkative sometimes you're like, Oh, my goodness, I have to go. I'm from Idaho, and I sometimes eat that way so yeah, I love that so and I would agree with you when it comes to like knowing your audience coming in, that's that's just marketing 101, I just have found that there is this just general air of shift in marketing and I think people are starting to realize what actually works and I think it also has to do with what the type of product you sell, because like for us, my cheapest product is a $20,000 product, $21,000 product and by product, I mean service so it's like we don't really have a cheap service available and so it's not about the bulk, it's about the relationships and so we do a lot of one to one interactions in our sales team, their entire job is to like be their friend, go golf with them, do whatever you want to do to be their friend and provide them real value and then we can ask for the sale, right or ask for the upsell or whatever, where if you're selling, you know, like a $300 program or something you need volken you need quick, fast, punchy emails, things like that and so and you know, Monica, you've been on both sides of the coin at this point, you've done the done for you've done the coaching course side, has your marketing had to shift pretty dramatically for the way you're offering your service?
Monica: Yes, done for you. My done for you agency is very referral relationship right, this one on one conversations, like I make money by going into high level masterminds going to the conferences, right, if I see you face to face, you know, that is gold for me, right, whereas my $37 Email Marketing Course, right like it needs bulk, it needs affiliates that are talking about me, it needs that because I'm a relationship person at heart to so affiliates are great for me and you know, that's why I'm starting a YouTube channel, right like, it's like the mass marketing and then it's also a very different audience, right, the conversation has to be longer, they have to understand more, you know, they don't really get email marketing the way the million dollar businesses do, right and so are they, you know, even $10 million businesses or, you know, multi-million dollar businesses, it's just a very different conversation and I find that the people who want to spend less money, honestly take a different kind of and longer amount of work to do.
Josh: So yeah, I would agree with that, we were having this conversation before, it's just it's so interesting to see the way you have to market to people, because I used to think that the only way to get in the door with hyper successful people was to, you know, show up to their place and ask them if we go to coffee, and I don't even drink coffee so it's weird so it just that whole thing. It's to me was like, I just don't know if I can work with that group because you just kind of have this perception of who they are but when I started interviewing people on my show, I'm like, wait, how much do you make right some of these people are like, oh, yeah, I'm a billionaire. I'm like, what What? It was that easy to just invite you on my show and that's where like our whole strategy came from was I'm like, Well, that was way easier than having to get past your gatekeeper, right, if I say, Hey, you want to come on my show the gatekeepers, like on my team rah rah cheering like, Hey, I just got you a PR opportunity, I'm so cool, you know.
Monica: based on their status.
Josh: Yeah, exactly. Yeah, post the status button is what I like to say, but
Monica: Yes, it’s very powerful.
Josh: So it is, it's always curious to me because I think email marketing is 100% works for no matter what product service, anything at your offer, you need to have that in your, your marketing tool belt, but so interesting to see where it fits in each of the products and services, you know, so I think it's cool that you've been able to see the whole spectrum, let alone all the companies you've helped do this along your way so you know, we are coming up to the end of the interview here and I just want to kind of get a last couple good tips out of you, because you've given us some really good actionable advice but if you give them like one good tip there I can make sure that this is something you go do today to get a win, what would that be?
Monica: Today to get a win, probably just send an email, honestly go write an email and gets in.
Josh: I love that one and I would also pitch in there to make sure you do a good subject line leverage on the subject lines that we talked about today, I'm telling you, if you're in the b2b space try quick question you will get you will get at least 10% will open your email so love it. Well there Monica, when it comes to email marketing, you know, for a company who's doing a million dollars, they already kind of got a pretty decent strategy in place, how can they level up their game and email marketing?
Monica: Well, I think it depends again, on who your audience is. So if you're trying to build more relationships, then make it more one on one, like put somebody on your team that is responsible for building relationships through email, like do Google alerts for that person's name and have somebody email them congratulations, if they got published, or, Hey, I just listened to your latest podcast episode, it was really great and this is exactly what I loved, right, like keep stroking at somebody's ego, and like helping them feel loved, that is the strategy if you are going for, you know, the $20,000 The $30,000 clients, right, if you're going for mass market, right, you're trying to get tons of people, then up your game, right send more marketing messages with different angles and hooks this is where you're testing out different ideas and one of the angles that hooks that I like to use is just go up the awareness ladder, right so there's people who know about your product, know about your service, right and then there's the people who know that they want email marketing, but they don't know exactly how to do it, right and there's people that don't even know that email marketing really exists, I mean, I don't really know very many of those people don't know how it exists, but like how it could work for them, right and then that is where there's so much, so much to do, it's like, oh, well, you could do this, this, this or this and here are the different hooks and angles around that think of different audiences think of all the things and actually one of my, I have a lot of moms in my audience and so I like to use Disney movies as hooks and angles so like, Hey, here's what Mulan’s grandma can teach you about email marketing, and like that does really well for me.
Josh: Well, then, I mean, I've never asked this on my show, but who's your Disney princess because I was literally thinking about so I first started talking. I'm like, You look like this princess, but I'm curious who you think you look like?
Monica: Okay, you know what's so funny? Is that I I've worked for Disney three times.
Josh: Wow. Well, there you go.
Monica: Yeah and I was actually like, in college, I was a character I was the main guy was Mickey Mouse.
Josh: Ah wow nice.
Monica: I know right
Josh: so I guess not a princess.
Monica: I know but like, I guess the princess that is probably my most favorite is, oh gosh, I don't know, that's such a hard question, I like them all.
Josh: like we were talking marketing Josh.
Monica: I know.
Josh: like straight out from like, No, you would be a Snow White.
Monica: No, I'm not Snow White though, I'm not going to live in the forest with seven random men and
Josh: just like total aside danger, have you seen those? Those memes of like, the it's like the honest truth about Disney movies when they like tell it from the frame of like, what it actually is like, my mom was killed in front of me along with all of my siblings and then I got kidnapped and my dad traveled, it's Finding Nemo and saying it's Finding Nemo. Like that is horrible.
Josh: I digress but it's good marketing, it gets me every time. I'm like, I've got to read these because they make me laugh every time like that is awful and hilarious okay, anyways, back to marketing, I just want to ask you one final question just to kind of wrap this interview up, which is if you could give us one final parting piece of guidance, what would it be?
Monica: Email more, I know it sounds generic, but simply emailing more will get your results faster.
Outro: I hope you enjoyed this episode of The lucky Titan podcast. If you've learned anything from this or any other episode, make sure you rate it and share it with another entrepreneur could help. Thanks again and I'll catch you on the flip side.