Quotes about change: "Wisdom: May it come through me and not from me"
Silvia Martini shares her journey through profound loss and change in her life. She suffered losses that affected her greatly but was able to find new beginnings by staying open and curious. Silvia believes that by staying true to our values, we can overcome difficult times and grow personally. Her way of becoming resilient involves being kind to oneself and embracing the liminal spaces where transformation and wisdom occur.
Reflecting on the good and the bad, Silvia emphasizes that our experiences and the knowledge shared by others can bring light into our lives. She encourages us to live with purpose, nurture our growth, and make every day count by contributing positively to the world. All while being grateful for the experiences that shape us.
Quotes about change: "Wisdom: May it come through me and not from me"
Silvia Martini shares her journey through profound loss and change in her life. She suffered losses that affected her greatly but was able to find new beginnings by staying open and curious. Silvia believes that by staying true to our values, we can overcome difficult times and grow personally. Her way of becoming resilient involves being kind to oneself and embracing the liminal spaces where transformation and wisdom occur.
Reflecting on the good and the bad, Silvia emphasizes that our experiences and the knowledge shared by others can bring light into our lives. She encourages us to live with purpose, nurture our growth, and make every day count by contributing positively to the world. All while being grateful for the experiences that shape us.
Welcome to. So you Want to Move to the Country and Raise Goats? This podcast features stories from people who have gone through change. We hope that their insights will help you better understand and deal with the changes in your life. I'm Peggy Kanick and, along with my co-host, Catherine Greiva, we chat with insightful people with interesting change stories. We hope you enjoy our podcast.
Speaker 1:Sylvia Martini wears many hats. She's well known for her expertise in strategy and governance, association leadership and her entrepreneurial endeavors. Besides her very extensive professional experience, Sylvia also has experience and a journey through grief and change. She shares her perspectives on suffering profound loss, grief and finding a healing path. We're very happy to welcome Sylvia Martini to the podcast. Sylvia is a longtime entrepreneur that I'm familiar with. I first met Sylvia on a board. Sylvia has real bench strength in board governance. But Sylvia also has a very rich life experience in change and I think I'm going to just drop you in there, Sylvia, and ask you to just start telling our listeners about some of the change you've experienced and how you found your way through some of the more difficult changes in your life.
Speaker 2:Well, thank you, Peggy and Catherine. I'm absolutely delighted to be with you today. I have such respect for both of you and when we talk about change, it was such an invitation to be with you today. Especially in the last number of years, for me change has become a point of great study how do I come through change with meaning and intentionality and wiser? So then that became part of an exploration of my life, and I've been keeping journals for 50 years and I found them all, and so I started to read through all the journals and in those journals I saw where those changes took place and some of those changes.
Speaker 2:And we had discussed very briefly that there are three areas of change. So the first one was the change that I chose to make, such as moving from Toronto and a vibrant career in Toronto when I was a young woman falling in love with a man from Saskatoon and within literally six, seven months, moving here, being married, moving here and now starting a whole new career and business and an entrepreneurial journey. That was a choice that I made and walking that, and there are things in those kinds of changes that we have U stress versus E stress. So the U stress is I'm walking towards something. It's a change and I'm out of my comfort zone but I'm embracing this opportunity and, yes, I recognize it's uncomfortable. And then E stress is distress. It's like, wow, I wasn't quite expecting that. I need to give myself a little more space. So that is a change, that and there are a number of those changes that I made.
Speaker 2:And the second type of change is a little bit more uncomfortable and that is a change that somebody else makes and it impacts you. You are in the storm of that change, Like they make a change, and you fall within that change. And that is sometimes unexpected and it asks of you. It asks you to go deeper and saying, oh my, you know, like it could have been from betrayal or it could have been from, you know it could have been. Somebody decided that they're going to quit a job, like your partner decides they're going to and go into entrepreneurship or whatever that. But all of a sudden you have to, you have to go with that wave of that change and you have to decide if you're going to accept that change or you're not.
Speaker 3:You know, sylvia, I was just going to ask you before you move to the third area. The first is choice, yes. And the second you said you have to decide, which means you have to choose what you're going to do. So, even though it was thrust upon you, was there a point in the second area of change where you decide? You felt, no, I do have some choice here, maybe not what triggered the change to happen, but perhaps how you responded to it or what you did after changes upon you.
Speaker 2:Oh, thank you for asking that Absolutely. And in a case like that it spun off a whole new career Because I had to decide. I mean, that was when you go back and you go into yourself and then you have to start to reflect. We talk about values, we talk about our principles of our life and you know, while we say in business and in strategy, you will be tested on your values, you will absolutely be tested. And that's where those, that is, where those choice, comes in.
Speaker 2:So it's not that it's not painful. On some of those scenarios they can be extremely painful, but they actually help to help you to define who you are and to test those values and say does this still, is this still meaningful for me? And in that particular example of my life and there were, you know, there are a number, I mean, that's just the way life is, but it actually opened up questions in my mind about, you know, what worked here and what didn't. And not to be defensive but to be open-minded, and I think that's really the important element is how do you be open-minded and curious and when that takes you and how that takes you down, that that path.
Speaker 1:So that to me, sylvia, sounds very intentional that when you're dealing with that kind of change, that you're actually Making yourself aware of what's happening around you and being open-minded and curious to actually see you what are all the elements of this particular change and do my values fit in, for example? But having that curiosity, I think it sounds like that's very intentional.
Speaker 2:Absolutely and being really careful that one is not also defensive, so and that becomes very protective, right. So Honoring and then all of these changes, really honoring and connecting with your feelings, so having the time for reflection. So what we hear oftentimes is we need to be resilient, just get back up and go at it. And I've learned something really important is that we it's how do we take those spaces and how do we become reflective in those spaces, to Honor what's happening but to ask deeper questions of ourselves.
Speaker 1:So not to get into the defensive, but to get into the curiosity and the openness and piggy to your point, absolutely, really intentional so, sylvia, there I sense that that there's a Foundation, that that you were able to stand on in order to grow in these areas around change I mean, you talk about values probably being a very important part of that foundation Are there. Are there other things in your life that you've thought about that was really the foundation? Because we do not, we don't get born and we're not just wise, right we. We have a foundation around us that supports us and we build on that. So what was your foundation.
Speaker 2:Such a deep question and a beautiful question. I really so appreciate that. I Feel really blessed that I have had the parents I've had the family had, and their life would not easy. So my dad was in concentration camp at Bergen-Balsen, as an example, at 17 years of age and Survived. Mom had bombs falling down, you know, at the end of the street World War two. They came to Canada as a young, a young couple from Italy, you know, built up. So you know, I would say that I learned some really important values from them.
Speaker 2:I think, mentally for me is I'm a, I'm very spiritual and I question. I Question a lot like things. So I remember when our daughter passed away and I Knew that it wasn't psychology I needed, I needed to delve into some really deep questions as why did this happen to this beautiful child into our family? You know, did I what? Where was, where was my creator? Where was, like? Did I not pray correctly? Did I do something wrong? Was I a bad person? Like, what, like, why? And what I remember was Saying God, I Know you're with me, I just can't talk to you right now because I don't know what to say. I Don't even know what to say so I, I Said but please just stand by me as I walk this.
Speaker 2:And I believe that there was a Greater depth of knowledge, that I needed to walk. I wasn't looking for Some justification, I Wasn't looking to have my pain torn away from me and taken away. What I was looking for was the journey of trying to understand so that I could go deeper, that I could become a better human being. That that there was Because I knew that. I knew that my daughter's Life had meaning, that there was purpose we all have, but the biggest, the biggest A lesson I learned was I walked with a beautiful who became a very dear, dear friend, a spiritual director, and she said to me something.
Speaker 2:She said you know, sylvia, faith is not About knowing for sure, faith is questioning, because you have to question. It's that, it is a process of questioning. So we cannot know, but we can question and we can go down the path of questioning, and I think that, to me, has been so incredibly valuable and my prayers have always been that I am, that I learn, and what am I to learn? And to go deeper and to have my roots of my Experiences deep in me, Become more, that there's a breath to my life and that there's a giving to my life, that coming from that change is value for others and understanding for myself. Does that answer your question, peggy?
Speaker 3:Yeah, it does Thank you, sylvia, that is just as you've described catastrophic change. And you know, mindfulness doesn't even to me quite describe. You know, in the depths of losing a daughter, you know to have that presence of mind, to think about how I need to be curious here, rather than allowing yourself you must have been angry, you must have had moments of anger and fear and all of that, but to somehow bring yourself back to the questions and the curiosity, that's a discipline, isn't it? You must have been very disciplined in your mind to not allow yourself to go down this black hole that could consume you.
Speaker 2:Oh, catherine, you know that's really powerful and I'm going to be honest with you. What I did permit myself to do is that when I was broken and I was totally broken when I lost our daughter every death is different because I've also lost my husband recently so there was, you know, we go through our elders and we go through this. I think of that. It comes into self-compassion. I think this is a really important message in regard to change. Without self-compassion, we say to each other oh, you know, you know, just resilience, we need resilience, we need to get back up and you know, just keep going.
Speaker 2:And the world is really uncomfortable oftentimes with that which is authentic. So when my husband passed away, when COVID hit, it also triggered once again the loss of my daughter and I went through it. And so we go through different stages, but there were times during that journey that was absolutely. It felt like I was walking a nightmare. It felt how I describe it is it felt like I fell off a cliff and I got run over by a truck. There was no painkillers and I'm in the hospital. I've survived it somehow, but I have no painkillers and I have in my total brokenness. I have to make sense of a new world. That was not in my purview of what I had planned and what I had hoped, what I had strived for. But how do we then come through that and look at with gratitude, with appreciation and knowing that these catastrophic changes are the time and you and I talked about this that liminal space for transformation. That's where transformation takes place. The invitation for transformation is in that space.
Speaker 3:So tell us about the liminal change. Tell us about that?
Speaker 2:Oh, you know, it was introduced to me by the famous virtual guru and leader, richard Rohr. But liminal actually is an architectural term about the transition, space transition, so a transition between spaces In the spiritual sense and how he used it is that it is and it's not necessarily, if I can say, getting comfortable in the discomfort, but it is recognizing that through this dark night of the soul there is an opportunity for being quiet, for reflection, for making the space, not to just push it away but to be in it, to understand it, to be aware of it and to allow that gestation of a new being to come forward, of a new change. So an example every seven years, as I understand, physiologically, we are totally different people. All of ourselves have changed over, they died off. We have 100% new cells, we are totally in a new body every seven years.
Speaker 2:So in that liminal space, it is about that period of understanding. It's messy, it's dark, it's really painful, but not to push it away. And if this isn't about depression, this is not about going into clinical depression. It is about understanding that this is a gestation period for you to grow and slowly it comes and it happens, it absolutely happens and you've emerged a totally different person, and so as part of that, then, that there's an understanding that this is not the end result, this is not the end of the journey, that you are going to emerge different and better.
Speaker 3:This is a hope and the courage to keep going that you're not staying here. This is the whole way to get you to where you're going to be.
Speaker 2:Absolutely so when we talk about change, and so, once again, my curiosity has taken me down different paths of learning about this liminal space and about change and transformation. So when we look at change, we realize that there's the psychological aspect of change. And how are we changing and making sense of it psychologically and going through the process of it? What do we need for support? That's where our beautiful inner circle comes in Our readings, our resources, our music to help us through that. There's the neurological change. There's absolutely there's a lot of trauma that can happen in these catastrophic changes that occur and our brain is actually changing, like during grief and catastrophic change or trauma. Our brain is actually changing. That's impacting physiologically how we're reacting. It's impacting psychologically how we're seeing the world. There's spiritual questions that are taking place.
Speaker 2:When we recognize the integrated nature of change, then we can see that it is a process and we are literally neurologically changing. When we respect that, there's gonna be parts of our brains and the trauma center that are actually over activated and our frontal lobes, our executive centers, aren't working that well at that point in time. How do we respect that? How do we recognize that in that particular space that's different from the other changes. Right, how do we respect that and how do we then know and start to slowly work through? So, when you go through that liminal space, what you're actually doing is you are reworking your brain as well, right? You're reading materials, you're listening to music, you're engaging with friends, you're speaking knowledge, you are being more compassionate, you're starting to see the world differently. You're literally changing your brain. That's the neuroplasticity of the brain. So that is more the physiological things that are taking place through change.
Speaker 1:So, sylvia, it sounds to me like this is a healing space. You know, when we think of healing, we think of quiet, resolve or healing, but actually healing can be pretty messy and it can go forward and it can go backward. But as it sounds to me like the liminal space is a healing space which ends up as a growth. You're growing as well, as you said earlier.
Speaker 2:You emerge as this whole new being in a way, absolutely how you see the world, how you engage in the world, what's important to you, the appreciation, the depth of appreciation. You know it's an interesting thing and I will say this, that a lot of people sometimes get uncomfortable with it. I'm not afraid of depth, I'm not afraid of it Because I know that I'm living my life fully. You know, I love the people, I love what I do. The work that I do is really meaningful. The people I serve is really meaningful. I do it with my entire being. The friends I have are connections, the choices I make.
Speaker 2:There's only I realize very clearly that in all of these changes, that in some cases, not the end, it's a beginning of new chapters that open up for us and we become more. And as we age and we have the opportunity to age, we have the opportunity to become more. And therein lies, you know, the one aspect I do. You know, that is extremely intentional, has been for a long time for me is always the quest for wisdom, and that is in and of itself as part of that transformation is how do we intentionally grow in wisdom from what we learn, so that we see change not as a threat, but we see change in a learning, the learning tools, and how we actually grow and become wiser in our lives.
Speaker 3:You know, sylvia, it just seems that when you describe change and transformation change, the way you've described it seems to be more of a an end result, whereas the transformation is more of a journey that you never really quite get there. You don't get to this end phase. Are you in and out of the liminal space? Is that always kind of a part of where you are? Or how do you view that now? Are you always?
Speaker 2:seeking wisdom. Well, I'm always seeking wisdom, you know, I'm always looking. So, as an example, I was at the Ramay Art Gallery yesterday and there's this amazing show right now about, you know, for an indigenous woman and her walk with her grandmothers and she's Metis and her walk in understanding her grandmothers and the pain and the growth and what they've learned and the wisdom that they've shared. When I go through that show as an example, I am connecting with her journey. I haven't walked her journey, but I am going deeper because of her journey. So the liminal space is not a space that you stay in. It is a space that you know that in these and it's very much so absolutely the opportunity is there in catastrophic scenarios, but also in changes, where somebody else has made a change, has decided on a change for you, and it might be shorter in that case and you're learning some things. And I've certainly been in that space. I didn't know that it was liminal at the time, but I took the time to go through it and that's where I then moved. It was a reflective space. I would say that that liminal space is often, in my experience, has come out of really more catastrophic scenario, but that doesn't mean you're not transforming all the time, You're always changing. You have that opportunity. And here's the thing that I want to say is change is constant. We're always changing. Every day that I wake up, I'm different than I was the day before. My cells have changed. I'm changing. Something's happened, the world is changing, so change is constant. So we don't, you know, when we try to secure ourselves, to say we need safety, I don't want anything to change. It's not possible. Try to change the ocean, Try to still the ocean. You know it's always changing. It's part of it of saying what, within that, will I intentionally contribute in a meaningful way to change in my own life, in the life of those that I love, what changes occurred? That is not positive, Because I have not been, you know, I have been unaware of it, but now it's come to me and I have an opportunity for change. It might have been my doing that has caused problem for someone else, right? So how am I going to change for that? So it's really about being reflective and intentional in your life, knowing that, like the ocean, we are always changing and the world around us is always changing. Are we a positive contributor to that or are we not. Are we going to be intentional about how that is going to work within our life or are we not At the end of it all? I remember I will just share this.
Speaker 2:I was probably about. You know, I was a deep child, like I did a lot of thought, but I'm really philosophical. But you know, I think I was in grade seven. I remember looking in the mirror one morning and there was some stuff had gone on at school as a young girl and all that. And I remember saying you know, Sylvia, every day you're going to look in the mirror and you're going to say you know, was this a good day? Did you make the most of this day? Do you like who you are? That was a big question. Do you like who you are? And if you don't, then you need to think about it and what are you going to change about that. So that was more on the intentional side.
Speaker 1:What are your thoughts about leveraging all that energy from liminal change to make change in a wider community? Is that even something that could happen?
Speaker 2:I don't know if you can like. There are times that things happen that are catastrophic and I don't know if the community can go through a liminal change. As an example. I think we go through change and it's forced upon us People. You know, oftentimes politically, people will want to see change at that point. It's almost too. It's very difficult to make change at that point because people like the security, and when it's when they're, they're seeing the discomfort that they're saying I want change. I don't know, peggy, if I'm understanding you correctly.
Speaker 2:If a community can go through liminal change, I think it is very personal. I remember at one point when my husband was still with me, I went through. It was a, it was a very difficult time and it was a big change that had taken place. And I remember saying to him and I didn't understand the liminal change, but I was going through it, I was entering it and I said to him you know, rick, he said are you okay? I said I don't know if I'm okay. I think I'm going to be okay, but I'm going to need to be quiet for a while. And I said I'm inviting you to knock on the door in about a month's time If you see that there's a problem and you can inquire and say, are you okay, do you need help? And I will let you know. I'm going to answer you honestly and in six months I'm still there. Then I'm inviting you that you can say Sylvia, you know we need to do something about it because I've gone down a rabbit hole but I can't get out right.
Speaker 2:So you know, I really respected Rick for honoring that and you know, month one was dark. I mean, it was not easy and I did what I, you know. But I'm really committed, absolutely committed, that I'm not going to do numbing activities, like that's another thing, because numbing activities do not. They do not promote transformation, they don't promote growth, they promote safety and hiding and burying and hoping that it'll go away and it doesn't go away. So you have to face that. You can't, you have to face it. So, but anyway, as it turned out in that particular instance you know he goes knock, knock, are you okay? Yep, I'm okay, it's happening.
Speaker 2:But I needed to reflect and you know, coming through that it was really amazing that they opened up more questions on things and then opened up new opportunities to see new ways of looking at things and starting to make change in community where I wanted to see change in community and on Ally's illness as an example, when she passed away I knew that I could not go out and do what was meant to be done in a change way because I was angry, because I was hurt, because I was confused.
Speaker 2:I couldn't but I had to honor that. Those are the feelings I was having and processing and then now I'm able to start to make change, but in a positive way and in a way that's meaningful, that does make a difference. That's asking the question strategically. So I think back to your question, peggy. I think that the change has to come from within with, from a good intention, from the questioning. It has to get around the tables when we're at boardroom tables in community and in decision-making roles, where we ask those really meaningful questions. And I'll be afraid of it to open up and be open-minded for the possibility of change.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because at the end of a liminal change process, as you say, we grow in wisdom, so that wisdom is something that can be shared or is something that you can bring into decision-making and into the community.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. I think change is a precursor to wisdom. It is. You cannot become wise without the process of the experience that you have, and how that happens is through change, right, so change is a catalyst. It's a catalyst, it's a great discussion.
Speaker 3:What are you curious about today, Sylvia? What burning questions do you have that you're searching for today?
Speaker 2:Well, I know that from the internal side, which is so it is so rewarding, is how what I've gone through, like the work that has gestated and the transformations that have taken place through the change, how that is now funneling in a meaningful way, and the opportunities that and when I say opportunities, every day there's opportunity, like our opportunity to chat today, those meaningful connections that we have. How do we enrich those meaningful connections that we, with the knowledge that I have today? The burning question is how do you take this forward now and not necessarily because I don't go with ego, like it's not an ego thing, it is how do you take this and create the space and the energy for thoughtful discussions to take place where people are open-minded? How do we encourage our young people? And when I think about today addictions and I think about mental health and the challenge, depression, the impact of social media on our young people, the burning question for me and change is how can I be a facilitator, a bridge, a thought provoker, a thought influencer for a more meaningful life for these beautiful young people who have not yet experienced their life?
Speaker 2:But I have a perspective, like my dad did and he shared with me quietly how do you become a thought influencer for young people that they can start to process, neurologically, spiritually, a courage, because it takes courage right. It takes courage to see the world with possibility. How do we do that? And that to me, is a really big one, because I think that's critically important. How do I help my grandchildren? How do I help my beautiful and amazing daughter and family? How do I help those see the world and think more critically and think more thoughtfully, but think with an open-mindedness? That's it.
Speaker 3:You know I was telling you earlier that I've always been amazed at how you're always put together and you're always happy or appear to be and really shining, and you know it just done the hard work so that it actually comes from within and it just exudes from you. It truly does. Every time I see you you are a beam of light and it's been the hard work that I can't even comprehend that you've gone through, but have today gotten just a small glimpse into how you've made that experience, that liminal transformation?
Speaker 2:Thank you, thank you, and each of us are treasures. Like each of us, our life is a treasure and you know, it's about honoring that. I think it's really about honoring that, and I go back to when I was in grade seven and I looked in the mirror. I don't want to look back on my life and say, you know, I want to know that when it's my time, I can say, okay, I've done my best.
Speaker 2:I may not have been perfect and, my gosh, it certainly was messy sometimes, but you know, I've embraced it and I've lived my life and I'm so grateful for the experiences that I've had and for what I've gone through, because I've learned so much. And may it come Now this is the big thing, if I'm going to leave you with this. May it come through me and not from me. And through me means may it come from the experiences and everything that I've learned and beyond, and the wisdom and the beautiful people who've contributed to my life, but also who are walking with me in life with their own experiences, and may it come through us to a greater good.
Speaker 1:If you've learned just one thing about change while listening to this podcast, please subscribe on Apple or Spotify and share with friend this episode recorded via Zoom Audio. Producers Peggy Keneck and Catherine Greiba. Executive producer. Keneck Leadership Advisory. Theme music La Pompée written by Chris Harrington, music publisher in Votto Market. For information on this podcast, please visit wwwgetyourgoatca.