When East Meets West
East coast psychologist Peter Economou, Ph.D. and West coast psychologist Nikki Rubin, Psy.D. discuss the relationship between ancient Eastern spiritual practices and modern Western behavioral science with practical takeaways for everyone. Learn more at www.wheneastmeetswest.com
When East Meets West
S4E21 Midlife Crisis or Mindful Transformation: Understanding Change
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In this episode, we delve into the concept of the midlife crisis, exploring its validity and how personal narratives shape our experiences. We discuss the intersection of cultural expectations and individual identity while highlighting the potential for growth during significant life transitions.
• Defining and discussing the midlife crisis and its prevalence
• Personal stories reflecting various life stages' struggles
• The importance of distinguishing between crisis and transformative experiences
• Exploring the role of societal expectations in life choices
• Insights on post-traumatic growth and resilience
• Emphasizing the humor amid life's challenges
• Future research on age-specific transformations and their implications
Navigating Midlife Crisis and Self-Identity
Speaker 1Today's session is going to be a session for me, dr Rubin, is that okay?
Speaker 2I like that you called it a session. You know this is a podcast episode, but sure.
Speaker 1Oh, no, no, I need a session. I need a session I know.
Speaker 2That's why I'm laughing. Tell the listeners why you need a session and what this is about.
Speaker 1Because we're going to talk about midlife crisis and I have this big joke going that I'm in one right now and I will. We'll break it down a little bit, but certainly there's going to be listeners that have either been in a midlife crisis or in a midlife crisis or know someone in a midlife crisis.
Speaker 2Yes, sure, and also I'm laughing because I'm like I mean, look, it is a bit of like a made up thing, a midlife crisis, right, Like you can have a crisis at any time, and in fact, sometimes in midlife is when people don't have crises, Like I would say like it's a really stable time in my life. Actually, you know what I'm saying? It was more it's like it depends. It depends on the person. So I'm just saying that to to remind people. This isn't like a um, this isn't an official stage of development you know it's not a guarantee.
Speaker 1You know, hold on. Actually, wouldn't erickson say erickson has.
Speaker 2Yeah, but I don't.
Speaker 1I don't vibe with erickson, so oh hater, hater, yeah, yeah, well, because that's you know because it's not like it depends.
Speaker 2It depends on what's happened in someone's life and how things have unfolded, you know so for listeners, that was just a little cbt dig in cognitive behavioral therapy.
Speaker 1We don't always mess with some of the other, uh yeah, psychologists and their models, and eric erickson was a disrespect actually, he wasn't a student of freud, did I make that up?
Speaker 2no, he's.
Speaker 1He's too, I don't or they like work together.
Speaker 2Maybe they broke off, I don't think so I think he's too young for that. So we're gonna get some heat mail from this. All right, we're going in the wrong direction. Yeah, go back to midlife uh, so midlife.
Speaker 1There is some research that shows that there's like sort of that upside down, you know, um, you or or even just like the smiley face, uh, where there is a little more unhappiness in the middle of one's life, and that sometimes people are happier when they're younger and then they're happier when they're older.
Speaker 1So there's some research that kind of supports that I think you know. But there's also research that says only about 10 to 20 percent. 10 to 20 percent of people experience a midlife crisis. So let me start with you. You say that you could have a crisis at any point in your in your life.
Speaker 2Meaning, correct meaning meaning that, um, what stage of development you're in and what's happening is only like one factor, right, like so, if we think about, like you know, for me my 20s were really hard, there was a really hard time in my life, it was like mostly graduate school. So it's like when we think about like developmentally, that's that can be hard for a lot of people, like you're not like fully cooked yet, literally like your brain's still growing and yeah, um, and so you know it's your more. Your worldview is more like black and white, rigid Mine certainly was.
Speaker 2And um, I knew it was like a very tumultuous time for me. Um, but other people like so it was not. Some people are like oh, your twenties are the best time. I'm like no, not me, not.
Speaker 1I was not a fun time, but you met me. I did.
Speaker 2I did meet you at that time. I did meet you at that time. That's true.
Speaker 1That's true. I'm just kidding. This is not about me, no, but that's true.
Speaker 2But we no, but that's true. That's true, but well, but to that point. We've talked about this on the podcast, pete and.
Speaker 1I. It was like one of the worst years of each of our lives. We shared some of the struggles you know and I. I reflect on that a lot, especially when I have students in my office that are struggling, and I'm I'm thankful that that year was so difficult and that sounds ridiculous, but like no, no, but we would say well, a lot of growing happened and a lot of like how not to do things and meeting each other and all that you know so, but but yeah, so when you're saying so, like when I say a crisis can happen at any time, it's like it's gonna.
Speaker 2It's gonna depend on individual factors, and I think a lot of times this is, this is different for you. You know, without overanalyzing Pete here or disclosing about his personal life.
Speaker 1I asked you to go out to work.
Speaker 2That's true, you did ask for a session. I don't think this is why you're having what you're saying. You're having a midlife crisis, but I think a lot of times people struggle in midlife actually because they've been on a track of following the rules, quote, unquote. They've been doing things that they're supposed to do and without really thinking about if that's what they want.
Speaker 1And then when?
Speaker 2you get to a certain point. They get to their like you know their forties and fifties, and it's like what am I doing?
Speaker 1Like that's what.
Speaker 2I've seen, like people that I know or patients, when I see the quote unquote midlife crisis, it's usually a result of having made a lot of kind of blind choices that were about doing what was expected of a person based on cultural narratives.
Speaker 1So are you trying to say that I followed a lot of rules?
Speaker 2Well, that's what I'm saying. You don't fit that? That's why I preface it by saying that you, you know? I think you're just saying, you're joking, you're having a midlife crisis.
Speaker 1Well, sort of, I'm not really joking, can you? Tell me Well she just put her hand on her chin like a good therapist. Yeah, uh. I no, I joke but I'm also like there's a truth to it. So I think that there is this sort of shift happening and, to be clear, like I've never been a rule breaker, I just I'm a rule pusher Like I like to you're a little bit of a rule breaker. Can I just?
Speaker 2say, I've just told people that you're the. I mean, I've learned from you, you've helped me with this when you're always like. You were the first person that ever said to me um, I ask for forgiveness, not permission. Yeah.
Speaker 1And I was like what a concept mind blown and for listeners it was like last year. No, I'm just kidding.
Speaker 2Well, it was probably like five years ago, I know yeah that's how much of a rule follower Nikki is.
Navigating Personal Growth and Transformation
Speaker 1That's right, but I think, just in any kind of, especially when you do a lot of social justice work and marginalized identity work, you're always kind of pushed down, and so you have to find that resilience. And I think for me remember I was also what was I called? I was the assertive intern, oh you know, which was seen as like a negative thing, and I'm like wait, we should be empowering people to be assertive like those. That's healthy to have boundaries so. So my midlife crisis is I had we haven't done an episode on this yet but there was a real challenge in one of my professional jobs and it led me to say, like, what is life really about? And so even though.
Speaker 1I've done that for years. On the cushion, meditating it was, I had never felt so attacked and so unsafe that it led me to like. So I threw a a big party, you know um, which is not what everyone does when they feel uh sure it's very common.
Speaker 1Yeah, but it was one of these things where I was like you know, there's people I haven't seen in a while and like, get everyone together. And and then shoes, so that I've just been buying a lot like shoes has just been part of my midlife crisis, which, you know, I was just telling someone this morning. I'm'm like I have some nice shoes, but I'll wear them with, like a target t shirt, like it's so, like it's like.
Speaker 2I love that we've gone, gone to like how to do fashion high and low, which is which I love.
Speaker 1But yes, you do.
Speaker 2Yes, I really do. Okay, what's interesting? Okay, now that I'm hearing you talk through this part, because I'm thinking of, just, you know, my own experience in the past couple years and the pandemic which was hard for most of us. Totally it's funny. It's like I don't know if, what, if, if you were, if, if I was working with you clinically and you were telling this to me which we're not.
Speaker 2I would, which I'm not but, um, we're friends, but it's not loud, but uh, I don't. I don't think this is a midlife crisis, it's like what. But it's like, it's like a shakeup of things, it's a time to like shift gears, cause I, I had, um, I mean different environmental factors, different situations, but, like, I had a similar experience a couple of years ago where it was like what is like? What am I doing? And it was very, very painful for me, like one of the most painful things I've ever gone through, and it was really I wouldn't, I wouldn't call it a crisis.
Speaker 2It wasn't a crisis it was like it was. Yeah, it was a shake-up and it was yeah, and I, and I personally described it as like I felt like I was molting, you know, like yeah like I was, like I don't have a better way of describing it. You know, it was like a. It was like shedding some, some parts of myself so that my full self could come through.
Speaker 1Like snakes do Exactly. That's exactly right.
Speaker 2Yeah, I love that midlife crisis, which I would define, as I was saying before. What happens when people have been like following rules blindly without really connecting to what they want to be about?
Speaker 1Yeah.
Speaker 2And then it's like, and then there's like a, there's a crisis of like what the am I doing?
Speaker 1You know what I mean, like yeah, yeah. Well, I love that we're putting this out there too, cause you know one of the things you and I are pretty protected around a lot of that, and I think it's helpful because I will say, knowing you know me, it's important to like distinguish, because people could be going through both.
Speaker 2There's they're both things that can happen, and I think I would also want listeners to understand, like you know, look, if you're in a midlife crisis, it's it's worth getting curious around, like like how did I get here? Like, why is this happening? I get here, like why is this happening? What versus like as is what I'm going through kind of more akin to like what Pete and I went through, where it was like there's something more, um, it's like, it's funny. They're similar in ways, but like there's something more mindful about it. It's not like all of a sudden, you're being hit by a tidal wave and you're drowning, and like what's happening, which you know that there's nothing wrong with that and that can also result in in becoming the person that you're meant to be or want to be. But I think for us it was more of like an intentional, like walking into something painful.
Speaker 1Yeah, well, cause every listener has had this at some point where something really bad happened. And then there were like thank, like we said that, was that this episode about like being thankful for internships? That was this episode oh my god so was?
Speaker 2was that five minutes ago?
Embracing Change and Personal Growth
Speaker 1oh, it was yeah, wow, okay, I'm fine, I'm fine he's okay, everyone, I don't worry everybody.
Speaker 2Everything is okay, everything's okay but, you could be thankful for these things. Yeah, we'll do it.
Speaker 1Yeah, I'll have the cops at my door so, but it's also thinking about like, what is it that we're doing? And so, um, when, when you know the internship thing, we're thankful for that. You know, and this thing that I had going on at one of my professional worlds was like I'm there, was a piece of me that said I almost hope I get terminated.
Speaker 1Because, I feel like it's holding me back from something else. And you know and I think I only know that because I sit so much and because the work that we do where how many times have you heard a client talk about such a tragic thing or a crisis that on the other side of it, they arrived to something?
Speaker 2that was better. Yeah, I mean, you know, and it's interesting, it's like I'm always like I'm always so careful when I'm talking about this in the room with patients because I don't, I don't want to ever communicate like you're glad this awful tragedy happened or this terrible thing, and I'll say, yeah, nobody wants bad things to happen to them. Right, I don't want bad things to happen to anybody. I don't want that and bad things happen.
Speaker 1Correct.
Speaker 2So, oh, do we want to um allow that to become a part of us, right and like one?
Speaker 2one way to respond is to grow from it I mean there's even like some research for the students around and the skin that you know it doesn't mean anything if this doesn't happen for you, but around what they call like post-traumatic growth that there's. You know, like they kind of look at um when people go through traumas, like sometimes people actually end up becoming more resilient, um down the line as a result, um, and that's part of it. So, uh, you know it doesn't again, you don't have to go through a trauma though to um to have some pretty massive evolution personally, well and, to be clear, I didn't in the moment I wasn't like I am so glad this is happening to me.
Speaker 1It was quite the opposite, like so that's your point, like I like the clients, because I'm never like this is what I want, because no one would choose it.
Speaker 2I mean, no, no no one chooses suffering no, and it's like, and I think for myself and I you know I've said this a lot to like friends and stuff, like things that I've gone through that have been hard, I'm like, look, I'm actually very grateful things have unfolded in my life that the way that they have. But I'm like, honestly, but if I had to, if I could go back in time, I'm pretty sure I'd choose it the easier way.
Speaker 1Totally yes.
Speaker 2Not even knowing how it turned out, because some things were so hard. So it's like that. That's just being a human, frankly, you know. It's like, yeah, but when we do go through something that's really hard, like there's an opportunity to to molt.
Speaker 1Yeah, you know I am with you, nikki, and this is another topic that I think we could probably stay on for a long time, but this was helpful. I will just like, as we're wrapping up, I don't think there's really anything Buddhist about this episode, you know, per se, other than we embrace change in a way that I think other, especially Americans, and the human condition does not. You know, you really want to say like, for example, death, like death is revered and like, you know, not a negative thing in many sort of buddhist. You know cultures and beliefs. So there was I'll end with some. Maybe this will be like a little teaser for another episode, because there was research this past summer that came out of a stanford university study that found that there are these sort of molecular transformations that happen around age 44 and then again around age 60. So I'd be curious to kind of dive into that. So you're gonna have to tune in listeners to find out if nikki and I talk about that in 2025.
