When East Meets West
East coast psychologist Peter Economou, Ph.D. and West coast psychologist Nikki Rubin, Psy.D. discuss the relationship between ancient Eastern spiritual practices and modern Western behavioral science with practical takeaways for everyone. Learn more at www.wheneastmeetswest.com
When East Meets West
S4E25 Understanding Memory: Strengths, Failures, and Resilience
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We explore the fascinating complexities of memory, discussing how it functions, the different types, and the factors affecting recall. Listeners gain insights into the fragility of memory, including false memories, the nature of repressed memories, and the impact of memory disorders like dementia.
• The distinctions between long-term and short-term memory
• The influence of sensory input on memory recall
• The phenomenon and implications of false memories
• Understanding repressed memories and their controversies
• Exploring memory disorders like dementia and their emotional toll
• Practical tips for enhancing memory retention
I don't remember what year we met, oh actually, no, I know you would. Yeah, cause 2010. Yes, I only know, because I finished 2011. So that's actually I have a landmark.
Speaker 2Yes, I was going to say that's why I was like you got to know your memory is far superior to mine.
Speaker 2I know I have an. I have like an exceptional, insane memory. It's true I I don't to be obviously we're talking about memory today, guys, in case you didn't, in case you didn't know, but, um, I will toot my own horn and that I I do have like a crazy long-term memory. I don't have. I I can forget a lot of like short-term stuff, like, yeah, everybody, but I I have. My first memory is from when I was like about a year old, like I have a visual memory of like being in my crib that I've described to my parents that I never saw a photo I've never talked about and they have a sensory memory of my mom like brushing my lips, like touching them. I mean, I've got this old guy. You might not I'm touching my brain, I'm in my noggin.
Speaker 1Your noggin is superior for sure, and so mine is not, and so that's why we are balancing each other out. Memory is something We've talked a lot on. One Piece Meets West about word findings, and so in talking about that we thought let's talk more globally about memory, because maybe then we could have a neurologist or neuropsychologist come on and talk about word finding in a more intellectual way than we might be able to. So different types of memory, so all right first, before we get into that.
Speaker 1We know you've got or at least I've just described that you have a very superior memory.
Speaker 2Well, I also did. I tooted my own horn, as I said.
Speaker 1I also bragged extensively about my exceptional as well, you should see that's empowerment I want you to like that's you gotta okay, yeah, all right, yeah, it's definitely a part of your superpower what my memory yeah oh, that's cool.
Speaker 2I think it's just like a fun party trick.
Speaker 1But no, it's your superpower, it does help with my job.
Speaker 2It does help with my job it does patients are like how do you remember that? And I'm like well, this is true too. If any patients are listening, they're going to be familiar with me saying this I always say the things that I tell everybody, like if I'm talking about radical acceptance or values, I'll like forget who I said it to but, the individual details of each person. I will remember forever. I will not, you know cause they're unique and different.
Speaker 1So what makes you so good at memory, would you say?
Speaker 2I think it's biological. I'm serious, I think it's. I think I've always been that way, like I'm always honestly like flabbergasted when people tell me they can't remember parts of their childhood. I'm like, oh, from age three on I remember everything. I have a lot of memories from age two. I have like the one memory from age one. People are like that can't be possible, I just always have. And then I rehearse them, I think about them, not obsessively, but in a way like I like to remember them. So I think I reinforce it, but I do think it's just how I'm wired.
Speaker 1Yeah, I think it probably is that way too, and so we'll talk about some of the different types of memory. So I mean you've already mentioned so long-term versus short-term.
Speaker 2Yes.
Speaker 1And so short-term memory is usually like working memory.
Speaker 2Working memory.
Speaker 1And so maybe you could talk a little bit about so you think your working memory is not great, or like not as great as your long-term.
Speaker 2No, I think it's just, I think it's, it's probably it's. I think it's just, I think it's, it's probably it's. I think it's pretty good, probably, Like. I don't know, if I was given like a cognitive exam, I would. It would be like average and up, Like I don't think I have exceptional maybe, but I'm saying it's not, I don't think it's exceptional.
Speaker 1I don't like average. It's high average, I'm sure it's high average Like what about?
Speaker 2what about you? Your working memory?
Speaker 1working memories. My working memory is probably stronger than my long-term memory interesting, okay, yeah, and I think, uh, I'm able like.
False Memories and Memory Disorders
Speaker 1So working memory for listeners would be things like phone numbers or like a string that's given to you, uh, that you have to just recall, like within a couple minutes or so, um, whereas long term it can be encoded, and so one of the things you look at with the memory is whether or not we can encode and retreat. A lot of times, encoding of memories occur when there's other senses that are also stimulated. Yes, so you already brought that in, so you brought in a little bit of the tactile memory.
Speaker 2Yes, except that's not one like. It doesn't get activated for me, like if I touch my own lips. It's not that I have, it's's a sensory memory, but I think what you're talking about pete is like especially, I think scent is the one that tends to so olfactory, like when we smell something it can remember, or also sound. I know like a lot of times music, things like that will put us back in a certain state, or or we remember certain um memories more clearly yeah, and so those are episodic memories, know, so we sort of remember a moment, and I'm sure every listener like smells a perfume and like it reminds them of their grandmother or you know, a house that they once visited, or like for me like chlorine.
Speaker 1You know the smell of chlorine.
Speaker 2Me too, all me too. Same Also yeah.
Speaker 1Creates lots of memories. Go ahead.
Speaker 2Oh, I was just going to say yeah, it's like. These different types of memories I think are important, because people always say, oh, we misremember details, right, and like that's like there's a lot of research on this, like it's like they'll say it's kind of bananas that are a main facet of our justice system is eyewitness testimony, since eyewitness testimony has been shown to be like really inaccurate a lot of times yeah, I'm gonna look up some data on that, but those are false memories, or there's a better word for those? No, it's like.
Speaker 2I mean, obviously, memory is not my um one of my main areas of expertise, but, um, it's, people can misremember details, like they can be sure that they saw somebody or something and it actually wasn't there, and and so what we don't understand as humans is that we're like I was talking about, like I rehearsed memory.
Speaker 2So my memories, like, even though I say I have very good memory and I can check with people that were there that might say that's right, they're also being shaped in real time. Like every time I go through them, it's going to be influenced by what age I am when I'm remembering, like, how am I feeling, and so they're, they're malleable. Um, there's we should also mention and this is a really important one, cause there's a lot of misconception about this to this day that repressed memories don't exist. So, if you know, like there unfortunately have been um therapeutic approaches that claim to unearth quote unquote repressed memories, and and I'm not suggesting that people can't later remember something like sometimes you can't pull it out, so to speak, like you know, you don't have access to it, but I always tell people like you, nothing can force a memory to the surface, like if it's hazy, it's hazy, and if one day it comes into focus, it comes into focus, but we can't unearth them.
Speaker 1Yeah, well, that was definitely in the same chapter when we were in school. Yes, right, yeah, totally yes, you know you learn about it, because to your point it's that, there's, this has all been sensationalized like on TV.
Speaker 2Yes.
Speaker 1And what the issue with it. From the research is that the suggestibility, you know, misattribution, that people are very suggestible and that's why say, for example, when you have jurors that they're not allowed to like read the news. Or kind of hear other things that are, you know, because there's emotional influence, because you feel a certain way about the case and that's what lawyers are trained to do.
Speaker 1You know if they're there, they uh the questions they ask and sort of the stuff that they bring there. So yeah, you know, but false memories are common, you know. So there's a lot of uh research that has showed, and I I don't know the stats of it, but you started to say that that it's you know. People will misattribute or have the suggestible memories that are just false.
Speaker 2You know they yeah, yeah it didn't happen right and so and I also share that to let you, you know, people know when, if you're seeking clinical support and somebody is claiming to say to you like I can unearth repressed memories, like that's actually. The research shows that that's not possible. So when I've worked with patients in the past where they've, they've shared with me that they remembered something that they previously didn't, or they weren't sure something was fuzzy. We, we approach it very mindfully. We just say then it's fuzzy, right, or we don't know. Sometimes people say like I'm not sure if this happened, and then we go, okay, then we're not sure, right, like, then we don't know that we work with whatever shows up. So anyway, I, I, I just think that's an important piece here right, like it's not, it's not a, it's. You know, the brain is not a, it's not like a steel trap. Actually, it doesn't actually like have neat compartments where it's housing, perfectly, you know, crystallized memories of something that occurred.
Speaker 1If only it did. I think that that might be getting blurry with some of the psychedelic research, because, you know, people can contact memories. You know through psychedelics, but that's what you're what you're saying is they're there, it's not that the brain can just put them away, correct, you know? And so there might be these other things that that come up, and so these would really probably be like implicit memories then too, because that's the thing we have implicit and explicit memories yes yeah yeah, and actually to that point.
Speaker 2You know, one thing I think about it's not weird that I think about this a lot, but I do is like, as soon as I think about like if I've, if, like on TV or something, there's a, an episode of a television show that I haven't seen in, say, 20 years, and it's and I and I watch it and I go, oh, do I?
Speaker 2No, no, but I know that I have and I'm like I watched that one time, a 30 minute episode 20 years ago, and my brain, when I'm encountering it, remembers that it's familiar.
Speaker 1Did you listen to our opening segment? Of course, your brain.
Speaker 2But most people will. But I think that's the truth for most people They'll be like oh yeah, I've heard that song before.
Speaker 1No, no no, no, no, no, no no.
Speaker 2That's just you?
Speaker 1No, I don't know, nikki. I do that Like I'll watch something last week and then I'll be like I haven't seen that, and then I turn it on and I'm like, oh wait, no, I did see that.
Speaker 2Like I told, see it that there's something in there that's familiar. So like I bet you there's things like a movie you haven't seen in, like you know, I don't say it's like 20 or 25 years, and then it's like there's certain scenes that you're gonna be like oh whoa, I do like that.
Speaker 1That's so that when you say implicit memory, I think it's like how much stuff is getting encoded outside of our conscious awareness right, yes, so that also comes from the research around, like commercials, you know where there's a lot of these like um subliminal messages, like colors store all all that type of stuff.
Speaker 2Yeah yeah, totally I was gonna say I feel like well, yeah, I know you did yeah, I was like well, because I was just thinking we can't finish this episode also without talking about memory disorders, like things like dementia different types of dementia which are not specialties of either Peter or I, but we both did train in graduate school and our neuropsychology rotations around this, psychology rotations around this.
Speaker 2But you know, what's so painful about those illnesses is that people start to lose not just their short-term but sometimes their long-term memories, right, and it's very confusing for those folks, very painful for the people that are around them and there's not a. You know, most of these illnesses don't have treatment that is effective.
Speaker 1I'm going to say all of them don't have treatment that's effective.
Speaker 2Yeah, all of them, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1You know, I mean, I think we're trying to be nice about it, but the truth is it's there. Some of the new research or interventions might delay the degeneration but nonetheless the outcome is the outcome and so things like it starts with mild cognitive impairment or MCI and then dementia and just like a silly little fact that's like a party fact is that you can't actually technically diagnose Alzheimer's until someone has had it.
Speaker 1I think it's just like important to say because people don't realize that and obviously it presents like, and so we might say like dementia with an Alzheimer's presentation, and there's different types of dementia that are out there as well.
Speaker 2Yes, and can you explain to folks listening why you can't confirm that diagnosis until someone has passed?
Speaker 1Got to see the brain Because you have to actually cut the brain open to see the neurofibrillary, which are the tangles of the neurons in the brain. You'll see the darkness, the plaque don't they call it yeah. Not until you can do a dissection of the brain could you actually make the Alzheimer's diagnosis?
Speaker 2We should definitely do another episode on this. We should have Heejin Kim. My best friend is a brilliant neuropsychologist at the VA. Hey Heejin.
Speaker 1Heejin, will you come on please?
Speaker 2Yes, she specializes in geriatrics, so she would be a great person to.
Speaker 1She would be a great person about that. I also wanted to just do some things around like explicit memories or things that you actually were you good at that, Like, say, like history class, like you know, just trying to like remember things for tests or or, or that.
Procedural Memory and Cognitive Functioning
Speaker 2I was good at that. I wouldn't say, though, like yeah again, for me it's more of the episodic memory. Long-term is probably more of my strength, but yeah, I could. I mean yeah, yeah, but, but, um, but I could, but it's not. I'm not like a. You and I are both not like jeopardy. People like those are the people that can remember, like the factoids, people that are in jeopardy. It's amazing. I'm like I don't, I can't do that. It's wild.
Speaker 1There's also procedural memory and I think that's important, maybe to link up with what we just talked about, with the uh disorders of of memory, because, uh, sometimes somebody with dementia or mild cognitive impairment might forget how to make and this is the example we always do in class like a peanut butter and jelly sandwich. You know, because a peanut butter and jelly sandwich requires steps, you know requires remembering the order of things.
Speaker 2Yeah exactly, yeah and there's something linked. It's more behavioral, right procedural memory. If I'm it's like, it's it's kind of um this, what we would talk about, like learning like you never forget how to ride a bike, kind of thing. Right, it's like, is that it's like, it's it's kind of this is what we would talk about, like learning like you never forget how to ride a bike, kind of thing. Right, it's like, is that it's a little bit? We colloquially people say like muscle memory, but I guess it would be procedural yeah exactly Yep Action skills yeah.
Speaker 1So that's and that's why sometimes, and so as we're ending and wrapping up, you know we I mentioned encoding and retrieval, so we'll, we'll, we'll touch that on another episode one day, where so encoding is just people have strategies, so as behaviors, we might work with strategies for people to help them remember. So we had a principal at our high school who knew everybody's name, you know, and even their family, and like we remember all the brothers names and so even their family, and like we remember all the brothers names, and so one of the things he would do is he had like a q word for everybody and ours was like the greeks.
Speaker 1There's always something, so if you can relate it with something you know, uh, whether it's about some other fact you know. So that kind of pairing helps people retrieve and these are different parts of the brain and so that's why with, you know, disorders of memory, that's why people kind of some people also their personality changes or they just forget who people are, long-term, short-term. So depending on where in the brain the plaques are forming is where their cognitive functioning might be changing.
Speaker 1So we will come back to this in an upcoming episode, but until then, just notice where your feet are, because you're not sure where they're going to be next. Dr Justin Marchegiani.
