When East Meets West
East coast psychologist Peter Economou, Ph.D. and West coast psychologist Nikki Rubin, Psy.D. discuss the relationship between ancient Eastern spiritual practices and modern Western behavioral science with practical takeaways for everyone. Learn more at www.wheneastmeetswest.com
When East Meets West
REWIND Sex, Connection, and the Human Experience
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Dr. Pete and Dr. Nikki explore the complex relationship between sex and human connection, examining how sexual behavior can foster intimacy with others and oneself beyond simplistic cultural narratives.
• Sex and intimacy are distinct concepts—intimacy can be as simple as holding hands or sharing a meaningful glance
• America's puritanical roots have created unnecessary shame and rigid boundaries around sexual expression
• Sexual fluidity exists on a spectrum, and passing thoughts don't necessarily define one's identity
• Mental health professionals have historically pathologized normal aspects of human sexuality
• Clinical statistics show 50% of sexual encounters in relationships are "unsuccessful" by traditional standards
• Connection through sexual behavior goes beyond physical climax to emotional intimacy
• Healthy sexuality involves clear communication, mutual respect, and individualized definitions of connection
Stay tuned for part two of our discussion on sex and connection in season two of When East Meets West.
Introducing the Sex Conversation
Speaker 1I'm Dr Pete Economo, the East Coast psychologist.
Speaker 2And I'm Dr Nikki Rubin, the West Coast psychologist.
Speaker 1And this is when.
Speaker 2East Meets West.
Speaker 1If we had our producers and our engineers here, we would start this episode with TLC's let's Talk About Sex Baby from the 90s Really good song.
Speaker 2You know, early or not, just early 90s, 90s hip-hop is my most favorite musical genre, as you know. It makes me feel so good, me too.
Speaker 1I don't listen to the radio that often. But if I do, I might put on once in a while like a 90s early hip-hop Spotify. I might put on once in a while like a 90s like early hip hop, Spotify.
Speaker 2Yeah, we have K-Day in LA 93.5, which is the greatest radio station of all time.
Speaker 1So just so they might want to be a sponsor for.
Speaker 2Wendy's Peace West. They might, let's contact.
Speaker 1So, yeah, let's look at and discuss sex today, you know, and sex is one of those things that's like taboo, right, like I do. You remember like as a kid you'd like sneak. You'd see like a boob on TV, or like you'd like have to sneak like one of like the prime show. Oh God, I can't believe. I'm saying that Cause we're sounding so old, cause these days you would just like click on something and then there would be, but we couldn't do that.
Speaker 2No, it's very well. And then it's different across cultures, right? So, like in american culture, that's it's.
Speaker 1It's a lot different than like if you go to france, so stupid about that, I'm sorry I'm sorry, that's a judgment, I'm not I'm owning that yes, you're owning, yeah, it's um.
Speaker 2Yeah, it's a different.
Speaker 1Well, there's, you know, strengths and limitations of every I remember going to france for the first time and feeling like some of the commercials were like yes they would be considered like porn here.
Speaker 2They would, yeah, they would Well, and so you know, I think it's important to say you know, pete and I are not sex therapists Like we're not. And yet, as psychologists who our job is to invite in all of the aspects of human experience, sexual, uh, anything related to sexuality, sexual behavior, sexual identity, you know, sexual thoughts, feelings, emotions, right, connection, all of these aspects are, all you know, major, like, honestly, like hardwired biological parts of our experience, even, I should say, on the other side as well, even like asexuality, right, this is like a part of our species.
Speaker 1So just want to make sure we clarify that Well we're going to, and I'm going to get a little defensive and a little righteous in that, because it may I.
Speaker 2Oh sure.
Speaker 1We will describe there. There's the association of sexuality educators and therapists, asec Great organization. Certainly on my clinical team we've had people that were certified. It's another certification Sure sure. There's really good cognitive behavioral therapists who don't have certifications and they do amazing CBT Agreed.
Speaker 2I just more mean. It's not like if you were looking for somebody who's primary, primary focus, for example, was like substance dependence, like I'm not obsessed.
Speaker 1You would have come to us.
Speaker 2And yet I see lots of people that struggle with substance use.
Speaker 1So what you're saying is that you and I are not like who was it? Barbra Streisand, and Meet the Fockers when she's like the?
Speaker 2wife.
Speaker 1I think she's a sex therapist.
Speaker 2I think she's a sex therapist or if anybody's seen a great. Have you seen the show sex?
Speaker 1education on Netflix. Oh my God.
Speaker 2So good, oh, jillian Anderson, and that is just so, so good. Yes, I highly recommend.
Speaker 1I'm going to. I'm going to put that.
Speaker 2I'll put that in our description that's a great that's a really I've done sex therapy.
Sex vs. Intimacy and Connection
Speaker 1Same same and I actually I have done sex therapy with couples. So you know, in our practice our clinical director that's her specialty is working with couples. So I have worked with couples, you know, especially in coordination with her, and we have to talk about things. And you know, in many couples sex becomes a thing and so we'll talk. That's what today is about. So I'll say that sex is easy. That's often what I say to clients or couples, that the sex is the easy part. The connection is what becomes challenging. And I'll also say this, which I don't know what the research says about this, but, um, you know, sex isn't what keeps a relationship together, you know, and totally sure.
Speaker 2Well, sex, sex, sex is again I'm going to be like really again me and operationalizing. Here I mean there's sexual behavior, there's the experience of sex as a, as a behavioral practice, very, very literally, um, as a behavioral practice, very, very literally, um. What that behavior means for an individual is going to vary. It can be a mean to connect with somebody emotionally, it can be just a physiological release. It can be avoided, right? The function of the behavior varies, and that's what you know in in third wave cognitive behavioral therapies and I've mentioned this before there's functional contextualism, which means we're constantly asking, from a curious standpoint what does this behavior mean? What is its function, its purpose? In this context and sex is no different, right? There's many functions to it.
Speaker 1Well, and so what you're I think many listeners are probably thinking about, like intimacy versus sex? Yes, right, because that's a big thing, and intimacy doesn't mean sex. You, know intimacy can be sitting on a couch holding a hand. It can be just that. Look where you just kind of like. You know just what's that called. Oh, wink, like wink, thank you. What's that called? I'm having a. You know you operationalize so well. I just feel like I don't need to. So just that part of my brain just shuts down when we talk.
Speaker 2What's that called? Right wink that was. That was like a very little mermaid moment like well, what is? This called.
Speaker 1What is it fork, right, that was like yeah, that was you or I was just listening to this other podcast where apparently paris hilton created this like airhead, uh character yes, uh you know for for things, but that we should do an episode but anyway so love language is another thing that I was thinking when you talked.
Speaker 1So, gary Chapman, and physical touch is one love language. There's acts of service, words of affirmation, gifts, so there's different ways that we. So love is different than sex. What we're talking about today is the sexual behavior and how that may or may not foster connection between people and I'm not going to say couples, no, between people, between people.
Speaker 2Well, can I say this is important to clarify? Yeah, and with oneself.
Speaker 1With oneself.
Speaker 2yes, Because connection? Because again, if we frame I think that's often missed.
Speaker 1See, I was thinking groups, so no, but that's right.
Speaker 2That's like it could be with people one person, many people.
Speaker 1And self.
Speaker 2And self Love, that I think that's something that I always end up like coming like up against. I think a lot of times with patients where, when they're talking about like, if the topic is wanting to experience connection via sexual behavior right and again. I'm saying it that way because I want to clarify that doesn't have to be that right Saying it beautifully.
Speaker 2Yes, thank you. You know that I think a lot of people don't start with this recognition of you know sexuality and then therefore like sensuality right, connecting with that. It does start with oneself and internally. And if there's no vulnerability with oneself in that way to explore those emotions and even, like you know, physiological sensations, that it's going to be very difficult to then translate that to to another, with another person.
Speaker 1Why are we so uncomfortable around sex? I mean, I think that that was what my statement was about. Like that, I think America sucks when it comes to this stuff, cause I do feel like our um another word I can't find right now. I have a word finding difficulties Um, what, what's that called? Called when tvs like censorship. Thank you, it's lucky you're a psychic connection that we're so the censorship, I think, does you know, fosters this uh, discomfort and and creates like a level of shame it, you know it does.
Sexual Fluidity and Identity
Speaker 2Well, it's so interesting and this is, of course, like such, this is important in terms of talking about dialectics in the middle path that I think that that comes from obviously. I mean this is sort of obviously say we're, we're a puritanical society, and I don't mean that as a judgment. I mean that very literally, like you know of, you know who, the uh, who, who colonized um, you know where we was now the United States, right, puritans. So you know this, those cultural themes run deep, you know. I think number one and it's also, I think, sometimes confusing for people, because there's a balance of also what is, what is um too rigid? What's a judgment? What causes shame and what is a? What are boundaries a judgment, what causes shame and what are boundaries? Because it can go the other way too. Where then there's a belief of like everything's open, we should talk about everything, it's like, well, that's not effective either.
Speaker 1Like the 70s, like sex, drugs and rock and roll.
Speaker 2Well, sure? Or sometimes there's questions of how do you talk to kids about sex?
Speaker 1Right.
Speaker 2Like how do you, how are you clear about that without without inducing shame, without being inappropriate?
Speaker 1Right, and so there's, I'm thinking, culture and values with there. Yeah, because there's going to be, you know, like this, this spectrum, that people I mean I've certainly seen kids where their parents are like so open about all things in an appropriate way.
Speaker 2Sure yeah.
Speaker 1Which still leads to, like the other kid, whose parents are the opposite, coming home from school being like what's that?
Speaker 2Yeah, yeah, so I don't know. So that's what I think. I think it's like I don't know if you agree with that. It's like I think that most of that, at least in American culture, is just driven from. You know, just, I honestly the, the puritanical framework that you know sort of you know is, is systemic and our how we talk about these things.
Speaker 1Totally. And the other piece I wanted to add was, like the fluidity of sexuality, which is another thing that I think again shame. You know, it's like it's so cool for females to be sexually fluid and to like make out with a girl once in a while.
Speaker 1And the same does not hold true for males, you know, and everything in between, and so I think that that's another piece of this that people really struggle with. So you want to take a stab at like just at least maybe operationalizing sexual fluidity, or talk about that for a moment, and then I'll.
Speaker 2Yeah, sure, I mean I. I guess I would say that you know again, as um, coming from a mindful lens, that I'm always encouraging people to just be curious about, like what shows up for them, and so sexuality is no different than that. So it's like what are if they have sexual thoughts or images about anything or anyone, it's like what, what are those Right, so? So if it's, if it's a man who, for example, identifies as heterosexual and then is sharing that on occasion they've had, you know, sexual um, maybe just random thoughts, sometimes fantasies about, about men, it's like okay, just allowing that right and so and saying that doesn't, that doesn't have to, doesn't mean have to mean anything. It's just like that's just what's showing up, and so Just another thought, yeah.
Speaker 2Yeah, and then I would say and then whether that translates into behavior that's up to somebody to determine for themselves of like what, what matches with with how they identify what they're actually interested in in in in the external world, I don't know. Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1And also we. This has been studied from. Oh God, this is where our preparation comes in. The fifties was um, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1I should know this. This is like all my original research, uh, but so the key, yeah, so we know that about like 10% of the general population represents some like, say, lgbtq identity, and that the fluidity of sexuality and so I think the other way I would describe it to people is like, if there's straight and then gay, fluidity means that there's a pendulum in which sexuality swings. Yes, sexuality swings, which means that you know I might be entirely straight and then you know if it swings a little bit like I might look at somebody in the locker room or you know some other type of behavior, and I like that you differentiated that, because I think that that's really key and none of it has to do with identity necessarily.
Speaker 2No, no, it's just like observing, it's just observing what it is.
Speaker 1So I think you know these are all things that are really difficult for people to talk about and I'll bring in a little bit of, you know, eastern spiritual practice, where the teachings are interesting, related to sex, because they don't talk explicitly around it per se, per se, other than the fact of like, as long as there's like cordial sort of commitment to the behavior from all parties involved.
Speaker 2That would be right action, as as in terms of like, um, let me make sure I'm understanding accurately it's uh, it I'm kind of hearing it as as long as there's like respect around it, Exactly, Exactly, Exactly yeah.
Speaker 1Well, I liked that. You said that I mean certainly like respect, you know. So, like um, you know there's no place for any kind of like sexual perpetration, obviously Right. And so those are against, that's against the law.
Speaker 2Yes, and what sounds like in from that framework too, it's also saying like there's it's, it's against, it's not moral.
Speaker 1It's immoral. Yeah, it's immoral yeah exactly and and and that that, I think, helps some folks that are exploring sexual identity. So that's different, right? So like so, sexual identity, we could talk about that. There's heterosexual, which is the vast, the majority of the population, um, and then there's, you know, homosexual, there's pansexual, there's asexual we have bisexual um's bisexual. There's others that we're going to miss, so we're not trying to name all of them.
Sex in Society and Mental Health
Speaker 1That's right, but just identifying that there's other groups and certainly like they become more and more nuanced over time because people find terms that kind of help fit the identity that they have for their behaviors. Yes yes, and we could maybe talk a bit about the DSM, the Diagnostic Statistical Manual, that we use here in the US. So here's another shit on US, in a way about sex, because there's a whole section about sexual fetishes, you know, which are seen as pathologizing in a way, and I'm like that's not cool, you know.
Speaker 2I mean, I think what do you think about that? Well, yeah, no, and I mean I think it's important to say and, um, you know, up until is I? I think the year is night, it's either 1972 or 1973, right, smart, yeah. Well, that always sticks.
Speaker 1Well, 72 was when the APA was in 73 is when it was removed.
Speaker 2Okay, okay, so I got a, I got a good, I got a good memory, yeah you do. She's so smart, thank you. Thank you, so is Pete. Up until that time, homosexuality was classified as a mental disorder, which is so horrifying, and actually and this is I'm going to miss I think it was even up to DSM-IV, which was 94, it was called instead of it was like gender dysphoria was the term for like right, wasn't that right?
Speaker 1Oh, I have it. I actually have a DSM-3 in my faculty office.
Speaker 2Okay, so that's and I'm. And obviously gender, gender identity, is different than sexuality. You know I don't want to. I'm just trying to give the example of like we. There's a history in our field of pathologizing these very normative aspects of human experience.
Speaker 1Yeah, and it pisses us off is what we're also saying.
Speaker 2Though I can also say but so again on the other end of it, right Like just to clarify the boundaries though, pedophilia for example right, oh, exactly so perversion, perversion, right, so that also like that goes in there as absolutely that would perpetrate that hurts people.
Speaker 1It would probably be limitations that you and I would not treat that we talked about right, because we're not equipped to certainly so. The DSM-5 came out in 2013. And what I'll say about that is I feel like what happened in 72, 73 was homosexuality being removed from the DSM. In 2013, the conversation was around transgender, essentially gender identity disorder, and so what a lot of the literature was making links between these two movements, because in 72 and three people are like well, how do you take it out? And you know that's the same thing about transgender, because we're not pathologizing gender identity, but we're not talking about gender identity today, but that we're recognizing that the reason we connect to this is because sex is always linked with gender and they both present on a spectrum. And that is the thing that's really hard for people to understand, you know, because our brain is so good at putting things into discrete little boxes.
Speaker 2That's, that's right. That's right. And, and you know, and I want to kind of circle back to something you said in the very beginning, because I think this is a. I know this is something you wanted to really make sure we highlight today, which is so how can sexual behavior be a part of connection with other humans or with oneself? Like, how, like, how do you work with that, pete?
Connection Through Sexual Behavior
Speaker 1Yeah, it's, it's. It's one piece of the value. So I think the love languages that I mentioned earlier are a big piece of it, because inevitably so. The other thing that's important is 50% of sexual encounters within relationships are unsuccessful, you know, and I think Define unsuccessful I think ASEC has. The way that they would define some of that research is that there was one partner doesn't climax.
Speaker 2I see Okay.
Speaker 1Right, and that, on average, monogamous relationships have sex 54 times a year. So I like those data because I think that they help people sort of normalize, like it's not perfect, it's not perfect, right, it's not perfect, right, it's not perfect.
Speaker 2Well, and it's even so. I mean, I understand why they defined it this way. That's so interesting also to say, like, to use the term, it's like successful If someone climaxes, it's like that, so takes away from that like the whole experience, like the myriad of behaviors. Right, like you know, inter intercourse isn't what defines sexual behavior. Right, it's a behavior. Right, it's a sexual behavior.
Speaker 1Right, and it depends who you ask, like Bill Clinton, like no, that's what I mean it's like, it's like and it's like that's not, that's.
Speaker 2that can be a part of connection.
Speaker 1So, as you said, could like, uh, like, making eye contact right, like some of these millennials like it's, so it's important to ask, like, what it actually means because I had someone actually saying that the other day and I just assumed that's what it meant, but it meant something different.
Speaker 1So I think the connection, and so that's what we do clinically is help the couple define it. And so there's even, you know, heterosexual. You know literature on this. There's a book called Open. Which literature on this? There's a book called Open which is about a female author that wrote about how she and her husband entered into a non-monogamous relationship where they had sex outside of their marriage, which again seen as taboo. And yet there's space for it.
Speaker 2It worked for them.
Speaker 1It worked for them and so being able to help them define what it is so the connection piece for them, and so being able to help them define what it is so the connection piece. Again, it's one piece of that relationship but, you know, finding ways that they can connect to the sexual behavior is is is something that I think our society puts a lot of pressure on.
Speaker 2Well, the movie I mean the movies, right, think about it. It's like, as if it's like yeah, well, well, that well, that I would say isn't isn't putting pressure for connection and that's putting pressure for climax Right and and and for certain, you know, and obviously, like I'm not as familiar with the research around this, but I, you know, somewhat familiar with research, discussing, like the kind of pornography that that men and I'm, you know, I'm actually afraid like just cisgender men view probably, particularly maybe heterosexual cisgender men versus cisgender women.
Speaker 2Right and like and and how does that impact expectation? How does that impact actually like even um, you know, not just connection, but ability to feel physically connected, because if they're visually overstimulated, right Like just regular humans, aren't going to activate that level of arousal.
Speaker 1Yeah, well, yeah, and it creates the expectation that's just unrealistic, and one that actually is pathological and problematic for sure. And so, hey, this, okay, we're going to need a part two on this.
Speaker 2Yeah, I think we do.
Wrapping Up and Looking Forward
Speaker 1Yeah, we're going to need a part two. This was great, though I think you know, listeners, this was at least a first introduction to sex and connection, and we're really excited to be able to bring you some more of this in season two. So stay tuned. This has been when East Meets West. I'm Dr Petey Conomo.
Speaker 2And I'm Dr Nikki Rubin. Be present, be brave.
Speaker 1This has been when East Meets West. All material is based on opinion and educational training of Drs Petey Conomo and Nikki Rubin.
Speaker 2Content is for informational and educational training of Drs P DeConimo and Nikki Rubin. Content is for informational and educational purposes only.
