When East Meets West
East coast psychologist Peter Economou, Ph.D. and West coast psychologist Nikki Rubin, Psy.D. discuss the relationship between ancient Eastern spiritual practices and modern Western behavioral science with practical takeaways for everyone. Learn more at www.wheneastmeetswest.com
When East Meets West
REWIND Worry vs. Rumination: The Covert Behaviors We All Do
I'm Dr Pete Economo, the East Coast psychologist.
Speaker 2:And I'm Dr Nikki Rubin, the West Coast psychologist.
Speaker 1:And this is when.
Speaker 2:East Meets West Pete. Today we're going to be talking about two covert behaviors that everybody does worry and rumination. Are you excited?
Speaker 1:Well, I mean you start right away with, like the behavioral definition, overt behaviors, yes, well these are covert.
Speaker 2:These are covert.
Speaker 1:What did I just say?
Speaker 2:You said overt.
Speaker 1:Oh my bad. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So yes, these covert behaviors of worry, rumination, because all of us do it we all do it.
Speaker 2:No, yeah, we all well if you're a human who doesn't no, because we all, um, we all have language and we all try to use that language to figure things out that can't be figured out. So that's that's really the problem here. And I know we've talked about worry and rumination in other episodes, like we talked about it, I believe, in our controller, control and behavior episode last season, and you know we talked about anxiety and uncertainty. We've talked about it. But I just really thought I think we got to dive in and really clarify what these are, because you know one, a lot of people I work with don't um, they don't know the difference between the two of them, um and two, if you don't know what they are, it's like it's harder to catch right Like cause, we can't see them. They're invisible behaviors.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and well, you know, I like my definitions. I know, yep, I do Okay, so quickly just quickly worry, uh, give way to anxiety or unease allows one's mind to dwell on difficulty or troubles.
Speaker 2:Oh, you know, I don't like that, I hate it, I know.
Speaker 1:I know you did already, and then rumination a deep or considered thought about something.
Speaker 2:Oh, so inaccurate.
Speaker 1:Break it down, dr Rubin.
Speaker 2:Who's that Webster who? Said that Oxford and Webster oh well, they need to consult with some psychologists. They sure do Try to do some definition, Okay. So let's start with just a brief review of overt versus covert behaviors. That's smart yeah. Right, let's, yeah, thank you. Thank you. So overt behaviors, if our listeners recall from previous episodes, are behaviors that basically other people can see you doing, so they're observable. So if you're walking, that's an overt behavior.
Speaker 1:Chewing Oreos.
Speaker 2:Chewing Oreos, eating them.
Speaker 1:I blended chewing gum with eating Oreos.
Speaker 2:I was imagining you just like sucking on an Oreo.
Speaker 1:I do savor an Oreo.
Speaker 2:You know Pete's savoring an Oreo overt behavior, that's right, you're welcome yeah. So so, basically, anything that you can see that's visible is an overt behavior.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:But what most of us are not accustomed to identifying are what we call, in behaviorism, covert behaviors, and covert behaviors or behaviors that you're doing inside of your body that no one can see you doing, and we do covert behaviors all the time. So thinking is a covert behavior, pushing a thought away is a covert behavior. Practicing being mindful is a covert behavior. Fantasizing or imagining are covert behaviors. Any other ones you'd throw in there before I get to worry and rumination.
Speaker 1:Well, there's just no. I mean I cause I was also thinking, like your heartbeat or you know, sometimes even breathing, like there's a lot of things that happen. Is what the point is there's a lot of things that happen that people don't know, because it's a really busy human experience.
Speaker 2:Yeah totally right and I think and some of those things like even like your heartbeat, we would call it like that, that is. I mean, it's something happening as a behavior, but it's an involuntary behavior right like we're not choosing it, and so the ones that we're talking about in behaviorism, um, in covert behaviors, are the ones that we, we are doing, we control, we have control over them I don't like that word.
Speaker 1:I don't like that word. You don't like that word. You like manage.
Speaker 2:You like the word manage.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:So how about choose, choose. Choose the ones that should behaviors you choose to do.
Speaker 1:Right, but I also don't think we can choose to think or not think I mean that's fair.
Speaker 2:Oh well, yes, well. Well, we can choose to interact with what our mind is doing. So there's there.
Speaker 1:So there's, there's a both right, it's always a both.
Speaker 2:Well, cause I? Actually we can even say that about the heartbeat right, like we don't choose what our heart does, but we can interact with it in a way that can slow the heart rate down or increase it.
Speaker 1:So you're welcome.
Speaker 2:Yeah, thank you, no, that is serve that to you. Yeah, sure, it is like that football. All right, so let's, so let's get in specifically to worry and behavior and the definitions.
Speaker 1:I this is an episode where we're talking about not liking things very much, that's okay, yeah it's okay, you know, I just well, you haven't said how much you don't like the brain yet, but you'll get there but you always correct me, I know no, I love it.
Speaker 2:I just what I don't like is that people put it on a pedestal. That's what I don't like. Right, like it just. It's just tissue in there, so anyway, okay. So worry behavior is is the type of behavior we do when we're trying to figure out what is going to happen in the future. That's what it is. I tell patients it's a better it should. It really should be named fake problem solving right Cause it is.
Speaker 2:So another way to identify it. And most people if they're going like huh, how do I know if it's a worry? If you start the sentence with what if?
Speaker 1:well, I think that should be a cognitive distortion.
Speaker 2:You know, I always add that to David Burns list. Well, I mean what if? Except, well, what if I mean yeah, I guess you could say it that way. I mean I would say it's also, it's a but what if thing like quite is is trying to figure something out, right?
Speaker 1:That's right. Yeah, so, david, david, if you're listening he's still he's not, he's not.
Speaker 2:Oh, no, he's around, but no, he's not listening. If you, if you are, I'm honored. Thank you for listening.
Speaker 1:And there should be 11 cognitive distortions, cause I do think what if thing should be on there, cause I do think what if thing should be on there, cause I honestly see that as one of the most common ones, and so, for our listeners, we'll break that down where the worry is about the future, like what if I don't make the team? Or what if I screw up this talk I'm about to give to people? Or what if I have a panic attack on my next flight.
Speaker 2:Totally so. It's like what, what I would say is the distortion would be what, the person, what the answer to that question is is like I'm going to have a panic attack.
Speaker 1:Right, well, yeah, the what if?
Speaker 2:is the? Is the you're trying to figure out if it will happen? Yeah.
Speaker 1:Well, the what if is the precursor to the distortion, to the distortion Like it's the movie film like. So when you say what if I, you know what if I mess up the speech, I'm already seeing myself like um well, which happens to me a lot of times, I see myself having a panic attack, like dan harrison leaving the stage in the middle of it all.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I literally always see that video which I use for exposure, because it and dan, thank you, I mean 10 happier like this is all really good tools and you know, I'd be curious, because my guess is Dan still feels nervous once in a while as he's presenting and on air.
Speaker 2:Of course. Well, he's a human being, right, and we, we all right, all right, I forgot that part. Right, right, we all do no, totally, so it's like so what, what if-ing? Worrying is what happens when our brains are trying to figure out what's what's going to happen. And the problem with that is that and this is really important for listeners to hear, it might sound obvious that is information. We never have access to. It's imaginary information, I say, like the future is a darkness, we don't know what it is. So you can? What if, till the cows come home? It's never. You can't reach your hand into the future and pull information and figure out what's going to happen.
Speaker 1:You're too young and hip to say something like that. You can. What if? Until the cows come home? I feel like my grandma used to say that, but all right.
Speaker 2:You're going to laugh because I'm also going to bring up cows when talking about rumination.
Speaker 1:All right, here we go, oh yeah oh yeah, yeah, rumination, here we go.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, oh yeah, yeah. But one more thing about worry is that to say that the more we cause, sometimes people will say to me well, I'm trying to think of all the possible outcomes.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Do people say that to you?
Speaker 1:all the time.
Speaker 2:Yeah, what do you say? What do you say to them?
Speaker 1:Well, so there's infinite amount of outcomes, which means that, even all the ones that you've thought of, there's another one that you haven't thought of.
Speaker 2:There it is. That's right. So it doesn't. It doesn't do anything. You're not. You're not like I said, it's fake problem solving. You're not figuring anything out, right. The only truth is that about the future is we don't know what it is, so but that's uncomfortable, as we talked about in our uncertainty.
Speaker 1:Someone said that to me today. We were talking about something, and he was like I don't know what the future holds for this person. I was like, well, none of us do so.
Speaker 2:I don't know what the next millisecond holds for me.
Speaker 1:I have no idea I might get into my next appointment that I have after we're done recording, but maybe not.
Speaker 2:Maybe not, who knows? Yeah, it's so. So knowing that and being able to label and recognize worry is helpful, because you you start to become attuned to this fact that your brain is trying to do a behavior that is it literally doesn't work, right, your brain is trying to do a behavior that is.
Speaker 1:It literally doesn't work, right, anything, anything you would add pete.
Speaker 2:No, let's go to the rumination and the cows.
Speaker 1:I just I want to hear more about cows you want to hear about cows?
Speaker 2:okay. So when I'm telling, teaching people what rumination is, so I say ruminate. That term actually comes from cows, cows yeah, it does yeah yeah, cows ruminate, which means to chew cud is what it means, and so it's yep and so I see it because, uh, I would, I wish, I, I wish, I uh found that out on my own.
Speaker 2:Someone taught me that once. Um so rumination is chewing cud, what it is is, while worries about the future, ruminations about the past. It's going over something in your mind. If you're watching our YouTube video, you're going to see me doing this little hand gesture.
Speaker 1:Circles and circles.
Speaker 2:Yeah, circles and circles where you go over something in your mind over and over again. Now, this is also fake problem solving, but in a different way, because oftentimes when people ruminate on things, it's like they're trying to figure out a different way it could have happened right, like they're trying to like mine for information. And the problem with rumination is number one. Past is gone, so just like the future is a darkness, the past. We know what it is, we have the information about what occurred, but we can't reach into the past and grab it right. It's already gone and the research is really, really, really clear that the more we ruminate, it intensifies emotion, dysregulation. In fact, the more someone ruminates, it's highly correlated with depressive symptoms. Nolan Hoeksema, who was no longer with us, but she was at Yale.
Speaker 2:That was her research, so that's important for people to digest Like.
Speaker 1:So think you know, cause, as we always joke around here in One East Meets West, that all roads lead to mindfulness, and that's exactly why we do that. So, because worry about the future or ruminating about the past takes us out of the present moment and, ultimately, what we're trying to do is just be as grounded as we can in this moment, which is, you know, the present moment, is not always great.
Speaker 2:No, and, and you know what it's. I'm really glad that you're you're bringing this up, and of course I knew I knew we would get to mindfulness, because that's really the, that's the, the, the, the antidote here for both worry behavior and rumination behavior, Um. But what I often find, though, is when I'm presenting that and I start to introduce people like okay, we want to come back to the present, They'll say to me well, what, I'm never supposed to plan ahead, or I'm never allowed to like, think about my past. Right, what do you say to patients when, when they they bring up that?
Speaker 1:Well, it happens all the time because, especially with high performers, they're like well, but I'm, you know, I want to get a gold medal or I want to win a world championship. It's like you, you, yes, you do in this moment. You know, you set that goal in this moment.
Speaker 2:Well, and then, how about if they say to you something along the lines of, yeah, but like I do need to think about future, or I need to think about, like the mistake that I met made. Excuse me, you know in the game.
Speaker 1:Yeah Well, you do that in this moment and then you let it go. I mean, you know you're allowed to learn from mistakes and you certainly want goals towards the future, but I'm not. I'm not answering the question the way that you want me to.
Speaker 2:No, no, no, oh, it's my face. No, no, no, I like what you're saying. No, it's funny. No, I'm actually just processing what you're saying. No, I like what. No, I like what you're saying. Um, I I'm just curious. I think about like cause, cause what I cause the part of it's happening? Well, I think, what, but? But they're talking about letting their minds wander away from it.
Speaker 1:Oh, gently bring it back.
Speaker 2:Gently bring it back, okay, yeah. So I guess, like what I find, or you know what I? What I'm thinking about is that because people it's like they, it's like they, I think sometimes want the answer for me to be like, how do I stay in the present moment all the time and I'll say like look we, we do have human brains, right. Like like I'm not saying don't plan or don't think about the future or don't reflect. In fact, that can be helpful right.
Speaker 2:It's just recognizing it doesn't exist, at the same time, like it's not happening. So you know, even in therapy, right, I say like look, we play Monday morning quarterback all the time.
Speaker 1:There's a sports metaphor for you Sports psychologist could play monday morning quarterback until the cows come home and you still won't know what to do with the present I'm just filled with trite phrases today.
Speaker 2:I don't know why, I don't know what's gotten into me, but um, so, yeah, so, but that's what we're doing in therapy a lot of times, right, like we're talking about things that happened and I'll say like there's benefit to that. But that's not the same thing as ruminating on it. Right, like reflecting is not rumination. Like reflecting is also recognizing it has happened. Right, planning for the future, like planning how I'm going to get to work, it doesn't mean I know what's going to happen. I might have a plan, and then there's like an accident and there's traffic or whatever you know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I just wanted to throw in before we end, like just thinking about, you know, buddhism in here, like that, really, the stuff like that suffering is is the natural order of, of, of of being, uh, and and in Buddhism they kind of think of worry or like rumination, about being restless, um, and it's like um, the fourth of five hindrances, because they the focus, like the goal within any kind of Buddhist meditative practice is the focus, uh, and so if I'm restless, I can't be focused, and so it's a hindrance that's really accepted as a, as a common suffering aspect, and so, really, like that's where you come back to like understanding, and one of the words that they use is like Kukuka, which is that that is worry.
Speaker 1:Oh, interesting oh interesting yeah, and so thinking about like ways in which and, again, I think, the way that they would teach them, because if you look up this stuff and any listeners or every article you read is gonna be like how do I get rid of worry or how do I get rid of elimination we're actually gonna say like don't, don't yeah, you can't you, just you focus, and you just focus on the present moment.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's of course, I always love when you bring in the, the Buddhist stuff here. Yeah, that's really lovely because basically, what you're saying is we have to start by accepting like this is what our brains do, right. Like this is like we're not. Like the, the work that we do as psychologists and and also the work the work that uh is is practice in Buddhism Isn't saying get a new brain, right, but you're right, like that's often how it's sold, like we're going to get rid of it. It's like, no, we're trying to interact with it in a different way and have the option to come back. Uh, so you know.
Speaker 1:Thank you for sharing that Well but can you get rid of my brain?
Speaker 2:I don't want to, I don't want to.
Speaker 1:I love your brain too.
Speaker 2:Oh, thank you, Thank you. I actually do love all brains. I just they, just they, just. You know we give them way too much credit.
Speaker 1:That's it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so you know for listeners. See if you can begin to observe and label when you're engaging in worry behavior about the future or when you're engaging in rumination behavior about the past, and see if you can pause and acknowledge it's fake problem solving it's not getting you anywhere and decide instead to mindfully come back to the moment that you're in. This has been when East Meets West. I'm Dr Nikki Rubin.
Speaker 1:And I'm Dr Pete Economo Be present, be brave. This has been when East Meets West. All material is based on opinion and educational training of Drs Pete Economo and Nikki.
Speaker 2:Rubin Content is for informational and educational purposes only.
