When East Meets West
East coast psychologist Peter Economou, Ph.D. and West coast psychologist Nikki Rubin, Psy.D. discuss the relationship between ancient Eastern spiritual practices and modern Western behavioral science with practical takeaways for everyone. Learn more at www.wheneastmeetswest.com
When East Meets West
S4E30 The Five-Year Evolution of a Friendship turned Podcast
Dr. Pete and Dr. Rubin celebrate five years since their first podcast collaboration, reflecting on how their journey began during the pandemic and evolved into a successful partnership despite initial reluctance.
• Pete convinced Nikki to start podcasting during the pandemic despite her private nature
• Nikki went from "kicking and screaming" to embracing the podcast after experiencing how fun it was
• Five years provides a meaningful timeframe for reflection on personal and professional growth
• Different approaches to reflection: Nikki uses "intentional remembering" while Pete incorporates gratitude practices
• Our brains evolved to remember negative experiences better than positive ones for survival
• The only healthy comparison is to your past self, not others or your imagined future self
• Difficult professional experiences can yield unexpected gifts, like Pete and Nikki's enduring friendship
• Mindful reflection differs from rumination by creating space for a complete picture of experiences
"The past is already gone. The future is not yet here. There's only one moment for you to live."
well, five years. And you're so good with timing, Nikki. I can't believe that it's been five years since we did our first podcast episode.
Speaker 2:I know Well, I was just chuckling, thinking about when you said I'm so good with timing because but I also have a problem with it's a blessing and a curse. I'll say it that way because I remember the timing too much and my brain can get kind of mathy about it. But in this case it's a lovely thing. I'm like wow, I can't believe you talked me into this five years ago which is really what happened.
Speaker 1:I know I hope you're okay with that still. I mean, I think you are.
Speaker 2:It doesn't seem like you hate me that much, I still do. Well, we're still doing this.
Speaker 1:So what you're saying is you're like my border collies because they Sorry to compare you to dogs, but if there's anyone I can compare to dogs, it's you.
Speaker 2:I actually find that to be an honor. Tell me how I'm like a border collie.
Speaker 1:They don't forget anything. So if there was a squirrel somewhere, they're like three years ago there was a squirrel here. I remember that. That's just like they're like really smart, obsessive brain. And so that's you, with dates and times.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's true, that's true, that's true, that's true. Yeah, well, I was.
Speaker 1:You know, it's just funny, because I think about like so five years ago when we it was actually not when he's me Swiss the first podcast.
Speaker 2:It was tell listeners what it was. Yeah, it was for. Uh, it was right at the start of the pandemic, and you know if listeners don't worry, you know, pete's a professor at Rutgers and they asked him to do a podcast, basically on mindfulness, and he said sure, but I'll only do it if you let my my friend do it with me. That's the only way they'll do it. They were like fine true story.
Speaker 1:Well, here's the thing. Who wants to just listen to me talk like I just don't.
Speaker 1:I don't really I like listening to you you're so biased uh, she's biased listeners, no, but I mean for real, like you know, I just felt, like you know, just having a conversation where someone's a mic and I I'm sure there's great podcasts out there that do that but I really appreciate you coming in because I was like it'd be a better conversation about mindfulness with you and I and I haven't listened to that since then, but maybe we should. We're like that was not accurate.
Speaker 2:No, I think we did a good job. We're accurate. That was not accurate.
Speaker 1:No, I think we did a good job. No, we're accurate. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Well, and the thing that I'll say is, you know, and I've talked about this on this podcast before that Pete really dragged me kicking and screaming, into doing this Really this is like not any of that Kicking and screaming. Y'all Kicking and screaming because I you know, because I'm a very private person yes, person and this is not. You know, as much as I love to like teach and share information, I don't it.
Speaker 1:Just this is kind of like not my jam, I know, but you're so good at it and so it's so funny because I, as I've been, some people are listening to my other podcasts and stuff like that I'm like no, no, but when east meets, west is better and I it is. I just keep pointing everyone there because I do think that you know our, our blend, and so I think you're you are private, I'm I'm private with boundaries, you are your boundary, yes, but but less, so you're less yeah, less you're, less I would say you're just less private than I am about I.
Speaker 2:I I'm very outgoing, but I'm, but I'm also very private as a person, and so this was a very like scary and vulnerable thing for me to do. And then so so I agreed, I said, fine, I'll, I'll do it. And it was also the start of the pandemic. So I'm like, what the hell else am I doing? And it was, and afterwards I was like, oh damn it, You're right, that was really fun.
Speaker 1:Kicking and screaming.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so you know. So, pete, pete worked on me for a bit to then convince me to do this, and I'm so glad because I think you know again, if, like, if we're talking about a five-year reflection, which I hope listeners too will maybe think about like a, you know, five years is kind of a nice time to reflect, because it's in some ways not a lot of time at all yeah right, like it's not.
Speaker 2:Like you know, 10 years, 15, 20 a lot happens. Five years in some ways seems like not as much time, and when you really pause and think about it you can start to notice like things do happen over the course of five years you know, and I think for probably a lot of people listening, maybe they've also had similar reflections, just because five years ago was the start of the pandemic and what's occurred in that time.
Speaker 1:So do you remember then, how long after did we start our first episode of when East Meets West?
Speaker 2:I think it was in the summer I want to say so. It was in April, I think, when we I'm like, I'm honestly like 90, 90. I'm going to say I'm 90% positive. It was April when we did the Wreckers podcast. And then you had to really work me over for a while.
Speaker 1:I needed a few months to say, look, this will be good yeah.
Speaker 2:And I was like I don't want to do it.
Speaker 1:And 100 episodes plus later. I know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so talk about exposure, just for everybody listening. It works, exposure works.
Speaker 1:What's exposure, Dr Rubin?
Speaker 2:Go, everybody listening, it works, exposure works. Um yeah, what's exposure, dr rubin, we gotta go to the exposure episode we don't have the time for that.
Speaker 1:We don't have the time for that today, um, but okay, let me ask you how do you, how do you reflect, like, how do you reflect in your life? Like, do you have any practice that you do that helps you reflect?
Speaker 2:that's a great question. Yeah, I do. I mean, I think that because I get a little mathy about dates like and I and I get a little like sticky about it, I should say like I can get a little bit too. Like you know, this isn't true for all people. I've talked to some friends that they're like yeah, my brain does not work like that. But yeah you know dates, anniversaries, those kinds of things.
Speaker 2:I really remember them and so you know I can get sticky. But I can also sort of transform that to say like it's just an anchor for me to say, okay, it's an opportunity for me to think about, just literally think back like what's shifted in whatever timeframe that is. Like you know what's changed, how have things evolved, right? How am I different?
Speaker 1:So do you do that just like while you're going to the bathroom, or do you sure I mean?
Speaker 2:yeah, I think it's just any times. I would say sometimes, yeah, I make like an intentional choice to reflect about it. Sometimes, um, honestly, sometimes, like you make of my meditating, like things will come up and I'll sort of allow my mind to you know, just be with what sort of images or thoughts come up. I think for a lot of people, some people like to I mean, I do love writing, but I don't, I don't write about it. I guess for me it's really like an intentional, like like active remembering.
Speaker 2:I think that's what. That's what I do. How about you?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think meditation is a big piece of it. I would say a little bit of gratitude practices where I am thankful. So recently my students in class were doing a presentation on burnout and I usually love that lecture because it's just an ethics class and they were talking about burnout and irritability and all this stuff and I was like, oh snap.
Speaker 2:I need to pause. I really am getting a lot out of this out of this class. On the receiving end Thank you students.
Speaker 1:I mean, on the other side of it, like talking about strategies, I was like check, check, check, like the strategies for, you know, preventing burnout and self care. So I think that was that's a big piece of it for my reflection where I think you do it and Buddhism teaches you this. So if I bring in a little bit of the East in that, where you're, you know, everything's constantly changing and so five years is created and you know, like the contract of time which we've talked about, and so, uh, in many ways time is the only equitable thing, which we've also talked a lot about. You know, like, no matter how rich you are, time is the one consistent right.
Speaker 2:Time is passing time isn't passing right. It's happening.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's happening so I like that you said about five years, 10 years, 15 years, but like we've done a lot in five years, you know, I think again because, especially thinking about you kicking and screaming, you know to where are now. I mean, I think if we weren't so successful and busy, we would be recording more too, you know like.
Speaker 2:Sure sure, I'm just like you know. I always talk about this podcast where I'm always like, oh, the narcissism of what I'll say, like we're so successful and busy.
Speaker 1:Well, I mean, you know I have to tell you this, so in class, the students in that same class yeah I have been. You know it's a late class. I haven't taught this late in a long time. You know, when you get a little bit more senior you kind of pick your class times and and so it's late and so I, what I'm doing is like bringing little snacks, like little you know, like like that's cute, I think so you know it's grad school.
Speaker 1:It's like fun and and so that one of the students was like Dr Pete, you're rich, you know?
Speaker 2:because I just kept like, I guess, the level of snacks my level of snacking was good, the level of snacks that you have available but my my response was, I said well, first of all, rich is subjective, I said.
Speaker 1:And second of all, you all have earning power, you know. And so even in mental health field, you have have earning power, and so tap into that, recognize that, and anyone could be whatever they want to be. You just can't hold yourself back, and that's so. What I'm saying is like we're doing a lot of entrepreneurial, innovative things. You know you have the private practice toolkit. You know your practice, you know you've got a lot of stuff going on, so celebrate that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, totally, it's a well. So, um, it sounds like one way that you reflect is actually trying to remember, like the things that, um, that, I don't mean to say the things that are good, you try to reflect on things that are good, and I think that's important to note because you know and maybe listeners have experience with this in their own lives like our brains are actually actually quite unskilled at reflecting on the things that go well.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And there's an evolutionary reason for that. I always explain patients like look, you know, our brains are. Our brains are evolved to keep us alive. So you know, 40,000 years ago, if you were, like, out looking for berries and you encountered a saber tooth tiger in a certain part of the forest, you better believe your brain stamped that memory right, don't go there Like my border collies. Yes, exactly, don't go to this part of the forest.
Speaker 2:There's danger there and so it's like why do we remember that? Because that kept us safe, like remembering where there was a beautiful flower didn't help keep you alive you know, and so it takes effort to reflect on on how things evolve and in a way where we're changing for the better. I actually also often say to patients like you know, if you're going to compare and we all compare that's the thing it's also like right. We all compare. I'm like there's only one person you can compare yourself to and it's you in the past.
Speaker 2:That's it, I'll say like future, you doesn't exist. I said, looking to the future, all it's going to be filled with is the what ifs and the negatives. I said comparing to other people doesn't give you data about yourself. But if you look back at your own life up until this very moment in time, you know what you're going to find is, even if there were hard things like, wow, I'm stronger, I learned something, these things have gone well and you know it, just I. So I appreciate you kind of reminding me about that right now. Right, it's like no, we, we have things also for Pete and I. You know, pete and I are, um, actually speaking of dates. This, this, uh, somewhere will be 15 years since we, since we, met. A lot has happened in 15 years.
Speaker 1:A lot has happened. Wow, I was telling so what you were just saying before celebrating the small victories. The mindfulness practice our meeting 15 years ago was not a small victory.
Speaker 1:That is a very large victory, yeah, a very important one, yes, and I was just telling one of our team members about that, because she was the person I was telling about how this podcast is better than the other one, and I was like it's because Nikki's on it. And then she was like, well, who, how'd you meet Nikki? And I was like, oh, you know, I told her about, you know, newark, newark and UMDNJ, and so I'm glad that we have that. That's where it all started.
Speaker 2:And at that time and we've talked about this before on the podcast it was a very, very difficult year for Pete and I. For me, it was maybe the most difficult professional year I've ever had.
Speaker 1:Yeah, not mine anymore.
Speaker 2:Not anymore, right, not anymore, but at the time, or so I would say, for me there's other things, like one of the most difficult professional years. No, yeah. Well, it was for me just to be be clear up until a year and a half ago sure, real fair, but um, but to that point it's like if we were just reflecting, if we're just like allowing ourselves to think about that year and what was hard, like we would miss that. You know, pete and I like an incredible, very deep, important friendship yes came from that experience.
Speaker 2:You know, and so you know the reflecting. It's interesting because it's like reflecting could unintentionally because brains are annoying, right, it can turn into rumination sometimes. Right, it's like chewing on something and going over. It's like reflection has a mindful quality to it right, there's an expansiveness and making room for like, well, what really happened, and it's like that year was not all bad Like we. You know we'd go eat grilled cheese sandwich those terrible grilled cheese sandwiches in the hospital cafeteria.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I went to the short Hills mall and all this, the one time I've been to the short Hills mall. That's it. That's it. You took me there. That's it. That was towards the end, too, that was the end.
Speaker 2:It was like a celebration.
Speaker 1:That was moms and we cut out early.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we did. That was hard for you see, I was like it was, I was like you're not gonna cut into our hours, it's fine.
Speaker 1:Well, nikki, uh, thank you so much, uh, and I'm so glad that ruckers asked me to do that mindfulness episode and maybe, if we remember, we'll put that in the show notes here where people can see where this all began. Uh, but you know, tune in for more to come on, when east meets, because we've got some new branding things happening and lots of cool stuff for people to check out. And I'll leave you all with this quote the past is already gone. The future is not yet here. There's only one moment for you to live.
