I get into a wide ranging discussion with self-described techbro, Pablo Peniche. We discuss:
Episode Page - https://www.simplewealthkc.com/post/bitcoin-monasteries-reclaiming-the-american-dream-pablo-peniche
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Andy Flattery is the Owner of Simple Wealth Planning, a Registered Investment Advisor. All opinions expressed by Andy and guests are solely their own opinions and do not reflect the opinions of Simple Wealth Planning. This podcast is for informational and entertainment purposes only and should not be relied upon as investment, tax, or legal advice. Clients of Simple Wealth Planning may maintain positions in bitcoin and the securities discussed in this podcast.
I get into a wide ranging discussion with self-described techbro, Pablo Peniche. We discuss:
Episode Page - https://www.simplewealthkc.com/post/bitcoin-monasteries-reclaiming-the-american-dream-pablo-peniche
Get the essential list of The Reformed Financial Advisor episodes
Follow Andy Flattery on Twitter
Send an email to andy@simplewealthkc.com
Andy Flattery is the Owner of Simple Wealth Planning, a Registered Investment Advisor. All opinions expressed by Andy and guests are solely their own opinions and do not reflect the opinions of Simple Wealth Planning. This podcast is for informational and entertainment purposes only and should not be relied upon as investment, tax, or legal advice. Clients of Simple Wealth Planning may maintain positions in bitcoin and the securities discussed in this podcast.
You know, nobody talks about the American dream anymore. if you talk about the American dream, you sound. Like a boomer. It sounds passe. It sounds wrote. And that's a shame. you know, we should, we should. Be aspiring to retake the American dream. And I, I remember hearing, something that struck a chord with me. And it was that. You always sound more intelligent. It always sounds cooler to be negative. Or to just crap on things. Particularly with regards to, uh, financial matters. It doesn't sound cool to be an optimist about, you know, a stock or a technology or something like that. It's much more agreeable to hear, you know, some British guy that is talking about gloom and doom. Um, and telling us to buy gold, buy guns and gold. If you will. But I like optimists. And I think I like people that put themselves out there behind a grand vision for the world. And, um, and have big ideas. And one of those people is a guy by the name of Pablo penny J. Who I was connected with by way of the great bit Steen after I did. An article and a podcast in 2022 with the Benedictans of Mary queen of the APOC apostles. And he's a really interesting guy. He's got really interesting ideas. He east turned me on to the Peter teal progress and decline thesis. Uh, which is quite interesting. And Pablo and I had a terrific conversation on. Uh, monasteries can adopt Bitcoin on the ideas of Peter teal and His thinking around who killed the american dream and how we can retake the frontier The bumper music i'm going to play later in this episode is from the band hollowed, which is at hollowed music music.com. you and I connected after you did a piece on Bitcoin monasteries, and I think you linked to an article that I did, which I was grateful for and, um, for, I mean, that piece was exactly for me. So I'm very grateful that I found somebody out there in the world that I was seeing eye to eye on, on the Bitcoin monastery idea. So, I'm glad, I'm glad to have a finally have a chance to chat with you.
Pablo Peniche:I am. I'm very excited. Uh, yeah, the article, your article was, uh, a friend of ours uh, introduced that article to me and I was sort of like very excited. Uh,'cause it was sort of, sort of around some ideas that have been thinking about for a while. Um, yeah, like that friend is, uh, you know, uh, Bitstein uh, he's, uh, very interesting this idea of like just Bitcoin in general and adoption in different institutions. Uh, and yeah, just found an article that was very well exciting that there were some nuns in the US that were taking Bitcoin, uh, seriously. And the article's not about sort of like just a nuns accepting Bitcoin, but rather sort of like process of building civilization,
Track 1:Yeah.
squadcaster-d1cb_1_08-25-2023_160448:um, which I think the serious Bitcoiners
Track 1:that's exactly what I want to get into you about. I, so since I read your article, I have been following you on Twitter. I have, um, had a chance to read a few of your other things and I'm really, I, I'm sort of liking the lane that you're in. And so that's kind of what I get, what I wanna get into. But I guess, you know, first and foremost, um, maybe just gimme a, a little bit of a background on, you know, who you are, where you, where you came from, how you went down the path to get into, you know, bitcoin, monasteries and, you know, futuristic tech optimism and, you know, uh, reclaiming the Renaissance. Um, maybe just gimme a little bit of, bit of your background.
Pablo Peniche:Yeah. Um, my background, I was born in a very small city called Merida in me, in south of Mexico. Um, I was born, I was raised sort of like, very much like, uh, my parents went to school in the us. My dad went to Harvard and sort of like, I was always raised sort of like with this sort of like different worldview to choose regular Mexican, I guess. Um, and I just got really involved. like as a kid, like in tech in general, just tinkering around with a bunch of toys. And that led me through all the sort of different paths. Uh, I discovered Bitcoin when I, uh, when I was in high school, 2013, if I'm not mistaken. Um, a high school teacher when I was living in Canada, uh, high, high high school teacher introduced Bitcoin to me and I was fascinated. I thought it was very cool. Although I remember very distinctly that I thought, well, uh, one Bitcoin for$600, that seems very expensive. uh, I didn't buy. And, uh, I still regret that, uh, Uh, but um, yeah, that's sort of like, it was one of those things that really marked my way through like. Uh, being interested in tech and trying to discover alternative ways of how do we go forward in civilization, I guess.'cause everything else seemed like so very stagnant. and that's what really drew me into the startup world. I was doing a double major in school, in Mexico City. computer science economics, which kind of fits the Bitcoin, uh, angle, I guess. and I dropped out to do a bunch of startups. I completely ran outta money. I went completely broke. And, then my parents like, kind of forced me back into, into, into school. Uh, I dropped out a second time to join another startup. Uh, left that late, like a couple months. Uh, so it didn't, didn't vibe with the company that much. And sort of like the third time I found a different company in New York that hired me through Twitter, which is the current company that I work at right now called Vienna Hypertext. we built sort of like tools for thought. Um, and yeah, that's when I went like formally dropped out of college for the third time and I, uh, got on, got a just a great gig in New York and I moved, moved over there. Uh, and I've been writing sort of like, about sort of like different thoughts about civilization in general.'cause I, I mean I saw it when I was living in Mexico, but now that I live sort of like in the heart of, of the empire, you definitely feel like very poignant decline in different ways. I'm just very interested in. like this topic of like how to do either revive that or like revise on vitalism or build from, like try to have a fresh start elsewhere, or, yeah. That's sort of like, it's been pretty much in
squadcaster-d1cb_1_08-25-2023_160448:mind.
Andy Flattery:of the things that you, you got me onto, Which I was sort of familiar with, but I hadn't, I hadn't really done the deep dive was the Peter, the Peter Thiel stuff. So the Peter Thiel, um, progress and decline thesis or however he defines it. And you got me onto that'cause you had been, um, I think reading through his, his like reading list and a syllabus and shared that with me. And I have since read, several of the pieces, on that list. But how would you sort of describe your view of where we're at and where you'd like to see us go?
Pablo Peniche:Yeah, so I Thiel's, uh, thesis have sort of like informed a lot of my thinking, regarding progress in general in our civilization. he has this thesis in which we're actually not progressing. we're in this stagnant moment in technology. and because you see all the time all this token head talking heads, referring to all these great progress that we're going through is just a sign of like propaganda. And then also he goes through all these different points of like, uh, we used to have Planes that would break the sound barrier. All that, all those are now decommissioned. we are not building nuclear plants. We're decommissioning nuclear plants. all the talk about energy is about how can we reduce, reduce, uh, consumption instead of like, how can we ramp up energy production? So like he goes through all these different, uh, evidence points. Uh, and like of, of course there's still debate like within people in tech, but people think like Peter is wrong and that we also like, we're living through like great progress. Uh, and like, I guess some people like to cherry pick different, different stats, but, uh, I, I generally think Peter is right in this point. Uh, for example, like, and you see it in other aspects, not only in technology, but rather, uh, so he's, he's a Christian. He, he sees sort of like this, this decline also in like church attendance or how many people are having kids, how many kids? Uh, and that's also sort of like a, a sign of, of decline in general. his thesis is that you can fix that if you trying to rekindle, optimism about the future. Not only of like, he calls it, um, sort of like indefinite optimism. Optimism, meaning, uh, you don't know how it's gonna play out. You just think it's gonna be good. This is sort of like characteristic of probably the boomers, uh, in the US after the Cold War. They didn't know how it was gonna be better. They just thought it was gonna be better. Uh, he def like he's, he sees like these quadrants of like the Future prospects, sort of like, there's a definite pessimism. You, you definitely know how things are gonna go bad. there's indefinite pessimism. You don't know how things are gonna go, but you know they're gonna go bad. Uh, there's indefinite, optimism. Uh, you're just like, sort of like naive thinking that, oh, like things are gonna improve. Uh, we don't know exactly how. Uh, and he refers to like the four quadrant that he, uh, says that's probably the best. That you're a definite optimist. You have a plan, you know how to act, and you just, uh, yeah. That sort of like gives clear view of how to improve the future rather than just, uh, be naive about how to improve it, uh, which is the counter of the indefinite, uh, optimist. So, yeah, I, I think he's like the recipe is trying to be a definite optimist, have his like strong plan, uh, how to act, and also He refers to other two things, like, uh, sort of like going back into the future, uh, um, and, and open up different, opening up the frontier. Those are like the mechanisms to try to rekindle sort of like some optimism in,
Track 1:Yeah, I mean, I, the, one of the easiest examples, I mean, as you point out a, a lot of technologists could argue about the specifics of what he is trying to put his finger on. Like I've heard, I think I heard Chamath or something say he's wrong about, uh, certain things.'cause biotech has made a lot of advances that Peter Thiel's not giving us credit for. But I think the, the part that makes a lot of sense to me is just the, um, This, there's a sense that technology is not moving us forward. And, um, the example of like sci-fi films, how there hasn't been like an optimistic sci-fi film in, in decades. I'm thinking about like that X Ana, which uh, was a really good movie, but it's like horrifying. That came out, I don't know, five or 10 years ago. And when I was growing up, I used to read those, um, Oh, like those, they're called Tom Swift. They're like pulp fiction for like little boys. And it was about like this, um, enterprising like space hero kid in like the 1950s or something like that. It was like very optimistic and we, we couldn't be, be farther from that. Um, now it's either like fantasy or like historical fiction. Um, everyone's sort of LARPing for like the past or for, um, some fantasy world or something like that. Um, and so that's, that's an example. I think everyone right away knows exactly what I'm talking about. Like there has not been an optimistic sci-fi moving long time. And that's, that's in the culture right now. It's in the air.
squadcaster-d1cb_1_08-25-2023_160448:Uh, there's, uh, there might be sort of like one off counter examples, like I. The movie Her is sort of optimistic. Um, but, uh, if you think about it, maybe like AI girlfriends is not
Track 1:I, I, I, I, saw that when it first came out, but I don't remember much about much about it other than it was
Pablo Peniche:Well, it's a guy who falls in love with his, with his ai, uh, that he like, his AI phone that he buys, uh, and like apparently has personality of her own or something. Um, but, uh, it has an, uh, it has an interesting aesthetic, I guess that is optimistic. But if you think about it, I don't know if like AI girlfriends is, is sort of like an optimistic future. The the counter, the, oh, the, the example of like, when did we, did we get any, uh, optimistic sci-fi was probably like Stars Trek, which I. I don't know if that's a great example because it was pretty communist There was no
Track 1:Yeah.
Pablo Peniche:in Star Trek, if
Track 1:I was never into it, but I've heard that critique of Star Trek, like the creators were Commies or something like that.
squadcaster-d1cb_1_08-25-2023_160448:yeah. So it's hard to, it's hard to like parse of like, oh, how do you, how can you, like, build a narrative for an optimistic future of technology? But I think, I think that might be changing. I think Bitcoin offers sort of like also interesting narratives
Track 1:Even within Bitcoin, um, there's still like suspicion of technology. there's that pie chart where it's like, you know, the Bitcoiners, the conservatives, the traditional Catholics, and I'm sort of right in that Venn diagram. So I understand a lot of this where a lot of folks are just getting suspicious about technology because I think there's this idea that technology is synonymous with like big tech or it's synonymous with like living in the metaverse. But I think your view is actually contrarian, even though it's optimistic. Um, and maybe even more American too, as you point out, and maybe we'll talk about here in a minute. Um, but I guess my question would be like, why, why embrace technology? Because I think there's this sense that technology is actually bad and you know, in the sense that it's big, big tech and the metaverse and all these things that we have a, have a negative connotation.
squadcaster-d1cb_1_08-25-2023_160448:Mm-hmm. Yeah, I think, um, there's probably sort of like a very simplistic argument that probably if you're a ludite you're probably gonna lose, like even in sort of like even basic stuff like military, uh, like if you don't, like, if you refuse to. Uh, build, um, firearm firearms, and you wanna stick with like spears, uh, and swords, you're probably gonna be in a lot of trouble. Um, so even, even the luddite, I argument, even if it's correct in like a moral sense, uh, it's probably a losing one. Um, so I would definitely advise, advise against being a ludite. Uh, although that is not to say that I'm not a, I'm not a panglossian that things that I, all technologies are gonna bring sort of like a heaven and earth or something like that. Uh, I do not think that, um, it's really about what we do with them, um, and also the nature of them. So, I. There's definitely some sense that, uh, Peter had this good point saying that in some way it feels like, crypto is libertarian and AI is communists. Um, I think he is, he has an interesting point there, but I have sort of like this counter divergent in which it feels like crypto is communist in the sense that it all becomes sort of like instruments with C B D C type things and Bitcoin is a libertarian. By the same token, also like AI from Google is probably sort of like communists, but when you have stuff like stable diffusion, which are uh, open source models, it does feel more even, uh, sort of like this Jeffersonian technology that anyone can have. Uh, running in their home and like create sort of like all these different beautiful things. Um, so there's sort of like this divergence. I, don't know if that
Track 1:I haven't started running my own servers or anything like that, but have you done this or have you. Interact with anyone that is like now hosting their own, um, AI servers and running these open source models on their own devices.
squadcaster-d1cb_1_08-25-2023_160448:Yeah. So, uh, open, uh, the, sorry. Uh, stable diffusion, uh, is actually not that sort of
Track 1:Hmm.
squadcaster-d1cb_1_08-25-2023_160448:expensive to run. Like you can run on like your laptop right now. Uh, I mean, I've played around with it. I, I've, I, I've run on my computer for like a week or two. it's probably not the most efficient, but like it is possible to run it on, on device. Um, Yeah, I mean, yeah, it's worth, it's worth playing around with these things. Um, and I think we should see the tip, tip of the iceberg with these things for entertainment, um, for creating narratives and grand stories. When we complain about Disney or like Hollywood of like, oh, I don't like, like all this woke, uh, stuff like being sort of like propagated through the movies and series. Like it doesn't have to be this way. Like we, if we can build the tools for like normal people to like some, like a group of five guys who are like very, have great ideas but don't have the money to fund sort of like a big movie production, if we are able to give them the tools to Build those movies like in a weekend on their own, choose typing prompts on their computer. That's very powerful. and of course it comes with sort of like all these different, uh, possibilities of like disruption that are like scary and like, I guess the Catholics. We have been, uh, over-indexed on those things since the printing press. Uh, uh, you have this new technology that creates a, these upheaval and then sort of like the world changes. And I guess what I've seen from many traditional Catholics that they, they don't like change. They, they, they, they wanna see themselves as sort of like usually as conservatives, I guess sort of. My point is that I I don't think there's much to conserve as of now. It's really, it's, you have to rebuild, you have to do construction rather than just repair,
Track 1:That's why I think the, um, the Middle Ages analogies are interesting because, um, you know, sometimes I think about like the Cistercians were in order. My understanding was they wanted to get out of the degenerate cities, so they were going out into the country, and so they literally needed technology to have sovereignty for their Their monasteries. So like the cistercians were one of the first that developed advanced Watermills and it, um, developed the advanced power of um, you know, like the 11 hundreds and the 12 hundreds. And, they were using technology out out of necessity in, uh, in a world that had, you know, I guess fallen, in, in some ways. And so I think that's interesting. But on the other hand, like, I don't want to, there's no way to go back, you know, like we can't go back to the Middle Ages. I don't wanna larp and just pretend that I can, you know, be some, um, you know, be some, uh, crusading middle, middle-aged LARPer. I admire it, but there's no way to go back. So how do you sort of admire the past in some ways, but also move, move culture forward, I guess is what?
Pablo Peniche:yeah. No, I, I totally agree. I definitely do not wanna larp, uh, do not larp. It's a very important, uh, sort of like mission statement, I guess. Uh, there's no way of going back, I think. But there's also sort of like something very noble about being, about being obsessed about the past. Uh, sort of like many great civilizations were obsessed about the Greeks. Uh, this were Rome. Renaissance, Italy, um, Germany, uh, Britain, the us like all of these have been like, like Spain also, um, have been obsessed about the Greeks and how to revive many things from them. I think we should be obsessed about sort of like different great illustrations from the past and how to learn from them rather, but not, not imitate them, like, like as a larp or pretending to be like them. Um, and I, I think that's where like my piece for Return magazine, uh, on Bitcoin monies sort of like fits into the conversation that, um, there's a lot of talk in like tech spaces about building, um, New, new cities or charter cities as they call them. Uh, vlog has this great book on like how to start new countries. Uh, in their thesis is, uh, in the past we were able to build new companies then online that we were able to build new online communities. And then we were able to build new currencies in sort of like the looming question that, uh, a logic proposes, can we build new countries? Um, I think that's a very interesting book. Uh, I don't know if we are there yet to build new countries, but definitely sort of like the space of new cities, new charter cities is very interesting and like new types of governance. So I sort of like, uh, really deep into that space. And I wrote this piece for Return Magazine, in which I like the story of how two different cities started. One is, uh, cities like Denver in the us which are, these were gold mining cities. People were there to, for like an economic purpose. People there were, were there for, to make money. There was an economy. And there's also this other city that are like a story, which is Prussia Prussia. Uh, it's founded by a bunch of, uh, Greek monks that move into the area of what is LA now, Latvia and Lithuania and like Northern Germany. Um, and well, these are warrior monks, uh, and they settle sort of like a small monastery in that area that monastery grew into, like sort of like agents in areas to like produce, uh, food agriculture. Uh, and like, like grow, grow livestock. That later grows into becoming sort of like a small university in which elites from Europe would send their kids to, uh, that university grows into a university town which grows from a university town to a city which becomes Prussia, which grows into becoming Germany. Uh, um, so the sort of like the question that I proposed in the article is that maybe there's a chance of building new settlements, uh, with sort of like, sort of like a Benedict option for people to go out into the field and like actually have, like not, when I say Bitcoin monasteries, I don't mean like, uh, people who worship Bitcoin. I do not mean that. I mean like actual either Catholic, it probably also works with Greek Orthodox, uh, uh, I probably with some Protestant variations too, but the, yeah, the, the point is like, these are Christians who move out into the field, and now because of the internet and Bitcoin, now they have an economic engine to keep those operations running. So what you would need is a, uh, energy source that is constrained somewhere very, uh, far away from a civilization. So this energy source would not, without Bitcoin, it could not be tapped into creating, like, into creating energy and then putting that to a grid. Because there's no grid, there's no, there's no group of people living there. Uh, but if you create a settlement in which you tap the Bitcoin miners, uh, on that energy source, then you can just, I. Use that energy to mine Bitcoin. And when you need money, you just send it around or sell it right away. Uh, or you just, yeah, it's sort of like that's the way you kickstart, uh, a settlement, uh, with an economic engine, uh, in this far away places. And the angle that I sort of like been discussing with other friends who work in, in Charter City startups things is that they try to recruit sort of like aristocrats really, uh, basically young people that are tech adjacent and like, like the idea of like building new cities. The problem with recruiting those people, I think, is that once you build the settlement, uh, even let's say it's beautiful, it's a great place to live. Uh, all the aristocrats you kinda recruited show up and I. They say, oh, this is great. This is a beautiful place. Uh, it's been like a couple months there. And then they say, oh, uh, this was great guys. I'm gonna head out to Central Fe. Uh, see, see you later. Uh, and they choose leave. They just bounce because that's what aristocrats do. Uh, in this day and age. And my point of the piece too, is that sort of like as, uh, how do you fix that? Well, you need people that won't leave. And my point, trying to convince, I guess sort of like secular readers that might be interested in investing in charter cities, my point was, well, you know, what type of guy doesn't leave a monk? A monk doesn't leave And, and so if you con can convince like a monastic order to say, well, we're, uh, We have this piece of land that has constrained energy. You guys get a free monastery, uh, if you like, basically promise to not leave and be sort of like the, the, the, the pillars of the community.
Andy Flattery:I was just looking at the Clear Creek Monastery website in Oklahoma this morning, and, brand new monastery that has been built in the last decade. And on the top of the website it says a monastery to last a thousand years, which is a amazing
squadcaster-d1cb_1_08-25-2023_160448:Mm-hmm.
Andy Flattery:grand vision. And, um, you know, in my interactions with the, um, the Benedictines up in Gower, Missouri, it is sort of a little bit of a Balaji community in a sense that they Attract women from all over the world that know about the Benedictine ethos that find their order online, and then that sort of online vibe becomes a real physical community. So that's kind of the Balaji idea of like a digital community then becomes a physical community. I've noticed that with like meeting with Twitter friends in real life, and all of a sudden the, the relationship is like rock solid because now you're turning that digital community into like a real thing. so I think there's something there. mean, the other thing that I think about with, um, the Bitcoin monasteries, and again, we're not saying Bitcoin is the religion. We're saying that these are Orthodox monks, but you know, Orthodox Catholic monks, you could say, but they're, you know, they're sort of adopting Bitcoin in the same way that monks adopted technology in the past.
Pablo Peniche:Well, many monks would have like economic activities like, making ale. My point is like, what about if they don't ale, they mine Bitcoin instead?
Track 1:You could think about it as like, um, the monks that run the nodes are like the keepers of the flame. So they're like, they're like the mug, the monks of the middle Ages that would, you know, uh, manuscripts by hand and keep like the traditional works of Western civilization around by, you know, copying those manuscripts. Like the Irish monks, you know, famously saved civilization as some might say. And so you could say then the people that are running the node that are running Bitcoin core on their computers, or maybe even have some hacking or coding skills and are able to like work on the open source projects. you can almost think of that as being a, a part of what these monks could do. Kind of like, um, do you ever, do you ever read that book Can for Lebowitz. It's like a Catholic 1960s sci-fi book about these monks in like post-apocalyptic America. It's kind, it's kind of a, a sci-fi classic, but it kind of reminds me of that. So anyway, I lo I love the idea.
Pablo Peniche:Well, the angle too is that, uh, I think it's sort of like a very powerful angle because what you're saying is like you're based Yeah, yeah. You're basically recruiting a bunch of like, middle son guys who are sort of like, have a strong religious impetus and are into computers. Uh, and I feel like that's probably like one of the most powerful weapons in the world. Sort of like, uh, European guys with weaponized autism. Uh,
Track 1:Yeah.
Pablo Peniche:it's
Track 1:That's become a meme for sure. The weaponized autistic, you know, always online guy that's super bright and brilliant and read everything. Um, So I, um, I, I also liked the piece. You did a piece, and I think you did a, a Twitter video on the American Dream, something like who, who killed the American Dream, but it wasn't just about who, who killed the American dream. It was also about, you know, how do we, how do we sort of reclaim that or how do we sort of get back? Um, how, how did you come to, like, where did you come to that idea and what, what's the background with that?
squadcaster-d1cb_1_08-25-2023_160448:Yeah. Um, a friend of mine that I worked with, Finn Brown, he introduced me to this, uh, essay, uh, I, I'm blanking on the name of the guy who wrote the essay that talks about Gatsby in this sort of like, reread of Gatsby of trying to, that he's not trying to get back to the past, but rather sort of like, watch the movie in reverse in what that means. Um, I, I connected that essay into thinking, well, who is Gatsby today? And who killed Gatsby? Um, so the angle of the video essay was that, um, Gatsby is sort of like the personification of the American dream. Um, and at the end of the novel, he gets killed. And sort of like, I'm, I wonder like who, well, who kills the American dream and who are these characters in today's world? Uh, so you have Wilson, who is the guy who works at the gas bump, who shoots Gatsby. Uh, he is technically the guy who kills Gatsby. I see him ask us sort of like a, he represents the proletariat today. Uh, sort of like the proletariat. Um, this is the question there. For one, it's like, it's a pro to blame for, for the American dream. I don't, I don't think so. He definitely is the one who pulls the trigger, but he's sort of like in total despair. After he kills Gatsby, he kills himself. Uh, it's not sort of like, not a guy really to blame. Uh, he, he kills Gatsby'cause he thinks that, well his wife, he, he just lost like the most precious thing he has in his life, which is his wife. Um, so I, I then I, we, we go through sort of like the second candidate, which is Myrtle, uh, in Gatsby. And well, she represents, I think, sort of like this feminist, uh, woman who's like very loud, very like goes, got got likes to go out in the city and it's promiscuous. Um, and. It's is, is she to blame also for, for the death of the American dream? I, I don't think she's to blame the feminist or not to blame, uh, for the death of the American dream, because Myrtle dies too. She, she gets killed. She's also someone that we should feel sorry for. Um, and then, well, if you look at the novel, well, who killed Myrtle? Uh, or Daisy, who's driving the car? Uh, Daisy is sort of like this, what Twitter people call an awful, uh, uh, affluent white female liberal. And there's all these parallels of like, there's, there's this tension between like intersexual dynamics between those classes, women, but It's definitely all, it seems like if you would ask Gaby, like Daisy's also not to blame, she's also sort of like a victim in this whole terrible scenario, uh, that they're all embroiled in. so you come to the last character in the novel, uh, of who is to blame for the death of Gatsby and is Tom Buchanan. The reason, the reason, um, the proletariat kills the American dream is because Tom Buchanan lied. and in this, in this reading, Tom Buchanan is the globalist. He's sort of like the old money elite who jumps around different places, doesn't care about, uh, the local populous, sort of like Buchanan and the novel. He like lives in London, creates trouble, leaves lives in Chicago, creates trouble, leaves uh, lives in New York, creates trouble, leaves. It's like it's a constant thing for Tom. Um, he. Um, and I'll, like, I draw all these parallels between him and sort of like the common, uh, global lead types of today. And I think sort of like a good, a good I way to frame it is like, well, you see now if you see Tom Bucha as sort of like the global elite, then you see that, well, the proletariat kills the American dream because the proletariat has been lied to by the, by the, by the global elite of the nature of his situation and why he lost his wife. Uh, he, why he lost everything that is dear to him. Uh, there's also a sense that why is Myrtle, why is the feminist sort of like being all promiscuous and like cheating on his, on his husband? Well, it's because she's being played also by Buchanan for the, uh, globalist elite. and also is he's doing the same thing with, with, with Daisy, uh, and trying to turn her into like terrible person that doesn't even show up to Gaby's funeral. And if you like frame it that way, then the question there is then, well, who is Gatsby today? And I think sort of like the closest thing to Gatsby today is the tech bro who's always fighting with the, with the New York Times type that is more of a Tom Buchanan and, uh, Gatsby, sort of like A B T C and the Buchanan is more the N Y T and, and sort of like, I think there's an interesting reading there of like tension between those two types. And, and what does Gatsby really want, uh, there's a sense of, like, you could say that there's something about wealth that Gatsby wants it. There's definitely a factor in the American dream of material wealth. There's definitely not the whole story, uh, Gatsby, you could say, that wants the girl. Uh, I think this is sort of like, uh, not a complete reading. And what Gatsby really actually wants is girl from the past in some way. He, he, he sees something in him like about himself in her that he's trying to revive, get back to the start, not, he doesn't wanna like go back to a point in time and then like play the movie again because like at again, like he dies at the end. We know how the movie ends in some way. He wants his life to always improve. He wants to watch again, sort of like the movie in reverse and to always be improving. Um, and. I, I, I just find sort of like that reading way more powerful of what the American, really American dream really is the second American dream, trying to revive something from the start. And then we can touch on like the first American dream, which is the Jeffersonian dream of the frontier and sort of like this religious, uh, impetus for settlement into the frontier. And there are different ways I think that we can maybe achieve that today. Uh, and it, it seems to me that, uh, most of them, not all of them, but most of them require a leaning in, into like technology. Uh, and that's, I guess sort of like that's my long pitch to people who want to believe in the old American dream and are sort of like religious
Track 1:just to, to kind of dwell on, on the Gadsby thing for a minute, Pablo, after I watched your video essay, I, I went and read the novel. It's very short. I hadn't read it since high school, hadn't read it in 20 years. And, um, it's actually, it's a really good read. My impression of the novel was, was it was more of a cynical view of the 1920s and the American dream. So I read it with the, the lens that you just laid out. And I think the thing that I, I like about what you're saying is there was this sense. Maybe that Gatsby represented a certain style of aristocrat that is somebody that we should aspire to be like. That is someone that, that it's someone that you're proud is in your community. You know, everyone's always talking about Gatsby. They're whispering about him. He has the most splendid mansion in the community. People drive by it and they're proud. his buddy is proud to live next door. He throws parties that everyone goes to every night. And so there's this sense that like, you have this sort of aristocrat that everyone wants to be like. He, uh, he had the rags to riches story that you didn't quite know where he came from, but you knew that he sort of had made, made well in life. And, um, that's something that we're all skeptical of now. I mean, we're skeptical of technology and we're skeptical of elites. Do you ever see Bug hall on Twitter? Bug Hall.
squadcaster-d1cb_1_08-25-2023_160448:uh, no, I
Track 1:this is, uh, this is kind of a deep cut. He, he did a movie in the 90 a kid's movie called The Little Rascals, and he was, uh, he was the lead kid with the kid with the spiky hair. Um, the, the name escapes me at the minute. So anyways, he's a child actor and now he's gone nuts and he's become like a trad homesteader on Twitter, but he's a pretty good follow. And, uh, he did this tweet and it was like, Elon Musk isn't going to save you from the elites. Donald Trump isn't going to save you from the politicians. Jordan Peterson isn't going to save you from yourself. Joe Rogan isn't going to save you from the ideologues. Nobody's going is coming to save you. You're on your own man up. And so I think that's, there's a sense that like, you know, it's sovereign individual is the only, is the only way out. And I think what you're saying is, Part of the American dream is like the gadsby, like we need, we need a gadsby or we, we could use a gadsby, someone that we could all admire and is going to sort of inspire us and have a grand vision. And that's kind of what I take out of your, of your gadsby idea.
squadcaster-d1cb_1_08-25-2023_160448:Yeah. Um, I have some, I I, I like this sort of like sovereign individual book. I think it was very much sort of like ahead of its time when it was written. The thing is that I don't, I don't know if that fully believe that in the sense that I. I don't know how to do everything. Uh, and I need other people around me to help me out like a bunch of stuff. And I don't think most people know how to do everything. Uh, you always need to rely on people around you. Um, logic had this good point of saying, uh, that instead of sovereign individual, we should have sovereign collectives of like groups of people. And, um, I guess my, my pushback on this guy's tweet was probably something along the lines of what a guy like Curtis Jarvin would say is like, it's not really about, uh, going Out and just being a homesteader, which I look, I respect that. I totally respect people who like, uh, wanna do the Benedict option and just go out into the countryside. Um, it just feels a little bit like a retreat, uh, like they're escaping someone, I think probably the way to win is to have better elites rather than just believe that, uh, you don't need any elites at all.
Track 1:Yeah. So I, um, I, I, I totally agree and, um, I, I have a love hate relationship with Elon because, He, he, he's perfectly rated because, um, there's so many things you could say about him, both good and bad, but I think just the idea of an Elon, someone that has a grand vision for the future, that's really important. And I, I, I certainly admire that aspect of him. So, um, I guess, who is the Catholic Elon? Is it Elon himself or, yeah,
squadcaster-d1cb_1_08-25-2023_160448:It should be Elon. I, I think it should be him. Uh, I, I have this bit that, uh, it was that, uh, he already has the perfect name for the company. It just, that has to add sort of like crusade at the end. So Space 10 Crusade, uh, SpaceX, I think it's actually sort of like a great narrative for people to like rally behind because, uh, settling the stars, it won't be easy. Uh, and I don't know, sort of like just secular, uh, worldview will be enough to rally people around to like, go out on a ship and like go to a different planet and settle there and might not come like Like knowing that they might not come back. Um, but I think, I think it's a different thing if you decide to get on a ship and think, I'm gonna go to Mars because I'm gonna go with my guys and build a cathedral in space. Uh, I think that's, I think that's more, has a more at traction in people's hearts rather than, oh, I'm gonna go to Mars and like do a research university there. Uh, I mean, it could be, I just don't think, uh, people have it in them to risk their lives for research
Track 1:Are you familiar with Robert Zin? Have you ever seen any of his talks? He, he's the, I think
squadcaster-d1cb_1_08-25-2023_160448:No.
Track 1:of the Mars Society, and he was one of the first people that.
squadcaster-d1cb_1_08-25-2023_160448:Oh,
Track 1:Got Elon into the Mars idea. And, um, I remember watching a lecture from him one time where he made the comparison to Christopher Columbus and, um, you know, Christopher Columbus, his ventures were the, uh, equivalent of going to Mars today, where it was totally a foreign land, not knowing what he's getting into. Took huge balls, took huge resources. And it was just at a time where like people thought big in that regard. And there, there was the, that adventuring spirit that people like Christopher Columbus, and of course all the explorers after him sort of had. And we need that. Like we need, we need someone to discover the next thing. And, uh, anyway, Robert Zeins idea is just, we gotta go straight to Mars. don't, don't screw around with stopping on the moon. There's a way to just go to Mars if you're open and not coming back And we need, we need to do that to inspire, to
squadcaster-d1cb_1_08-25-2023_160448:Yeah.
Track 1:everyone that it's possible. And that would be a huge, a huge thing. So with that, I, I totally agree.
squadcaster-d1cb_1_08-25-2023_160448:No, I, I, I agree. I agree. Have you seen the shekel ad?
Track 1:It's classic.
squadcaster-d1cb_1_08-25-2023_160448:I don't know if
Track 1:It's perfect.
squadcaster-d1cb_1_08-25-2023_160448:I, I love this ad, um, that says, uh, men wanted for hazardous journey, small wages, bitter cold, long months of complete darkness, constant danger, save, return, doubtful, honor and recognition in event of success.
Track 1:just pull that up or did you have that
squadcaster-d1cb_1_08-25-2023_160448:Yeah. Yeah.
Track 1:yeah. I mean, if you did, if you did, if you did the Mars version of that, people would sign the best would sign up.
squadcaster-d1cb_1_08-25-2023_160448:Yeah, yeah. No, totally. It is a grand vision. Uh, although I think there are other possibilities that are Feel possible in this planet for open up the frontier without, well, I think, I think colonizing Mars is probably the most pres prestigious way of open, opening up the frontier there. I think there are other possibilities, but logic talks about that of like, well, can you certain countries in, in, in this planet? it's, it's, it's, that is one, uh, seasteading is another one, I think. Um, but it doesn't have to be sort of like in the sovereignty space. Also, I think there's a possibility of like opening up the frontier with just beautiful art, uh, that's innovative, but like beautiful. Like in this essence it's beautiful.
Track 1:You said break sports
squadcaster-d1cb_1_08-25-2023_160448:other stuff
Track 1:That, uh, I grew up, I grew up, playing
squadcaster-d1cb_1_08-25-2023_160448:I was, yeah,
Track 1:with me.
squadcaster-d1cb_1_08-25-2023_160448:Well, you're doing something that no one has done before. So that's sort of like also why, that's why it's exciting. And I, well, even though I'm Catholic, I really like Nietzsche and he has this great point saying that, uh, high culture comes from the body and like everything else, uh, comes after that. And like he says, like fitness demeanor, uh, um, nutrition, all these things, uh, about the body are sort of like this, the, the cornerstone of high culture of, and that's where sort of like the fitness angle came to me like, if you're able to get more and more guys to break the limits of what people think are possible in fitness, then that's also a way to sort
Andy Flattery:W when you talk about opening the frontier, getting back to the start, is that what you're comparing to, like the, the what you were calling the first American dream or the, the sort of Jeffersonian American dream? I.
Pablo Peniche:Yeah, I, I, I guess so, but it, it also, not necessarily only that, uh, I guess what I've seen, what I've seen with other sort of like quote unquote right wingers, uh, which like, I, I, I dislike any sort of like political tags at all, or conservatives of some sorts. If you were at, like, if you were to ask him when would the, would we had it great, uh, then you would have different types of people having different types of answers. I guess sort of like the classical liberal would tell you, oh, like the Obama years were great, or like maybe some Republican would say, well, the Reagan years were great. Um, maybe some more conservative types would say that the foundation of the US was great. Um, but you would also see like other tra cats who would say no, actually before the Protestant revolution was great. Uh, and everything has been in decline since then. so I guess the angle there is not only to look back on the first American dream, but rather look back into great civilizations from the past and to learn from them. Yeah.
Track 1:I love it. Well, good man. Tell me a little bit about what you're doing and like, yeah, what, what are you working on right now to bring forth the next Renaissance?
Pablo Peniche:Um, I think it's sort of like twofold. Uh, I have a job in New York right now at a company called Vienna Hypertext that we're trying to build tools for people to create or play around with new ideas.'cause seems like the new ideas that we have in society in general kind of have stagnated and we have sort of like these thesis that it has to do with the mediums that we Used to create new ideas. So if we can make better mediums and better tools for creating ideas, then we can ramp up idea creation in, in society in general. Um, and the way you see, like the, yeah. Our, the motto for Vienna is, uh, for Digital Renaissance, and we have sort of like a first product, which is a canvas product. People use it for blogging, for note taking, for mood boarding, for all sort of different things. And it's sort of like a, you have a canvas in which put, you put text, audio, video, images, and all the sort of like blocks on your canvas can be connected to different other canvases. And you have all these sprawling connections of, of, of, throughout the network. That's one product. The second product we just launched is sort of like a transcription product that, uh, for, for turning audio nodes into text, uh, ba basically perfectly.
squadcaster-d1cb_1_08-25-2023_160448:Um, that's, yeah, that's my day job. Uh, and now I'm starting a second company. Oh, that, and, and at Vienna Hypertext, I'm, I'm an employee. It's a small startup, which is, uh, three guys now. And, uh, now I'm starting. Uh, a company with a friend of mine in El Salvador, uh, the country that made Bitcoin legal tender. And what we're doing is, uh, we're building a city in El Salvador, and the angle is that we're recruiting guys to move down there. Um, and it starts very simply. It starts with the gym. it starts with building a gym, uh, in a piece of land, at a beach in El Salvador. And so it's very simply people. We built a beautiful gym for people to, for guys to move out there and live there for four months, sort of like a short period of time. And the point is that guys between the ages of like 20 to 30 would move out there for four months to. well get huge, get like work out uh, work remote and learn the classics. The, the cla uh, the works of Homer or Virgil. That's how we're starting. And, um, it's sort of like very simple program, but the, the angle is that we're also connecting all those guys to different operations in El Salvador, both in the private sector and also in the government to try to help the country move forward in the sense that I, we think there's a, we have a chance of, uh, of building sort of like a, a small, uh, a Singapore in, in, in El Salvador.
Andy Flattery:Amazing. Amazing.
Track 1:I, I really wanna go down there. Have you been down there yet? Uhhuh.
squadcaster-d1cb_1_08-25-2023_160448:been, yeah, many, many times. It's a great, great country. Um, it's, uh, very nascent. Uh, there are definitely things lacking, but it's, uh, I think definitely land of opportunity. The, the, the, the government is very much favored by its people. They absolutely love the precedent. Uh, the approval rating that you see on Twitter that is like 90%
Track 1:It's legit.
squadcaster-d1cb_1_08-25-2023_160448:is totally true. The propaganda is totally true, uh, because people used to live in total fear of the gangs. And now like, I can walk down San Salvador, drunk out of my mind at 2:00 AM
Track 1:Now you really sound like bronzes. Age pervert.
squadcaster-d1cb_1_08-25-2023_160448:happen to me.
Track 1:That's where you're going with you. That was a Bab story.
squadcaster-d1cb_1_08-25-2023_160448:I do, I, I do, I do a little night walk here and there.
Track 1:Well, good man. So yeah, what's the best place for folks to follow you, um, and, and these projects you're working on?
squadcaster-d1cb_1_08-25-2023_160448:uh, I think Twitter As they call it now, x uh, on Twitter, Pablo Peniche, which is Pablo Peniche is spelled P E N I c h E.
Track 1:this has been so fascinating and uh, thanks for taking the time.
squadcaster-d1cb_1_08-25-2023_160448:Thank you, Andy.