Why District Court? - Upstream S2E2

Many Arkansans in prison and/or with children in the child welfare system started their legal engagement with misdemeanor crimes like traffic tickets, driving with no insurance, or theft. Community Diversion in District Courts is a key move to prevent future incarceration and/or foster care. 

In this episode we talk with Judges who operate diversion programs. It is our hope to see the expansion of Community Diversion to all Arkansas District Courts. 

Transcript

00;00;05;12 - 00;00;25;18
Judge Sarah Capp
I think off hand of of a young man that recently was in my court, he owed thousands of dollars. He had accumulated about $10,000 in fines and cost at the beginning of May, taking the bench. He was constantly on my docket.

00;00;25;26 - 00;00;30;02
Charles Newsom
Judge Sarah Capp of the district court in Franklin and Johnson Counties.

00;00;30;19 - 00;00;49;00
Judge Sarah Capp
And I'd found him in contempt, I'd put him in jail, and he came before me and asked for a chance to do this program. And I told him that we were going to give him a chance, but if he blew it, he wasn't getting another one. And so he did what he was supposed to. He did the work.

00;00;49;09 - 00;01;16;20
Judge Sarah Capp
He participated in adult ed. He participated in counseling as well. He completed both components of that program. Whiped out his fines and costs. And when he graduated the program, he was all smiles and was high fiving everybody when he left the courtroom and was just so excited. And I believe he even shouted out at me when he left the courtroom that day and said he hoped he never saw me again.

00;01;16;25 - 00;01;33;06
Judge Sarah Capp
So but he was smiling and it was in jest. So we've had several stories like that where people, again, are just just happy that they've been able to accomplish something.

00;01;33;06 - 00;01;40;17
Charles Newsom
This is season two episode two of the Smart Justice Podcast. Why District Court?

00;01;42;22 - 00;01;49;06
Paul Chapman
Crime and punishment are hot topics? Are there solutions different than what we're hearing about at a national level?

00;01;49;10 - 00;01;56;21
Judge Amy Grimes
They're trying to stop that cycle so that we don't see their children. They don't see them in juvenile court, we don't see them headed to circuit court.

00;01;56;29 - 00;02;04;03
Chief Jamie Hammond
We give someone a traffic ticket and they're scared they can't pay that ticket. And what do they do, they don't show up for court. They think it's going to go away. Well, it doesn’t go away.

00;02;04;03 - 00;02;10;16
Judge Charles Baker
It's not about the court bringing in that money. It's about helping that person avoid this kind of problem in the future.

00;02;10;16 - 00;02;16;00
Paul Chapman
There is a different way to approach justice that has better return on investment.

00;02;16;00 - 00;02;23;06
Sheriff Phillip Miller
The bad people need to be in jail and stay there. Folks that are suffering from just social ills, they don’t need to be here.

00;02;23;06 - 00;02;31;12
Paul Chapman
that seems to strengthen both law enforcement and courts and tie that together with community resources.

00;02;31;17 - 00;02;39;29
Judge Amy Grimes
That's what makes it worthwhile that little bit of extra time you spend working on it. But if you can't do a little mercy when you're here, then it's not worth being here.

00;02;40;00 - 00;02;51;08
Paul Chapman
And then track the impact to communities and better outcomes. And we're calling this approach Smart Justice.

00;02;51;08 - 00;03;13;08
Ed Lowry
Smart Justice is a work of Restore Hope and partner organizations. Restore Hope is a software and services organization that helps communities achieve better outcomes for justice and child welfare efforts. Smart justice is focused on optimizing the system by improving the relationships among its parts.

00;03;13;08 - 00;03;40;24
Charles Newsom
In season two of Smart Justice, we're going upstream, hoping to prevent people from getting too deep into justice related issues like incarceration and foster care. And we're looking specifically at helping people in district court. But why are these courts the offramp for people sinking into the justice system? Paul Chairman spoke to several judges, beginning with Judge Charles Baker from District Court in Van Buren, Arkansas.

00;03;41;08 - 00;03;45;00
Paul Chapman
Judge, how many people do you typically see in a year, a month or a year?

00;03;46;04 - 00;04;16;08
Judge Charles Baker
Let me break it down by week. That's an easier calculation for me. I probably will have 500 people a week on my dockets. And then unfortunately, some of those one court appearance doesn't resolve their issue. And so they'll come back multiple times. But we really do try to get people into our help system to provide them with some educational opportunities or some resources that they're not accessing so that they don't have to keep going back to court.

00;04;16;13 - 00;04;19;18
Judge Charles Baker
I don't want them to have to come back repeatedly.

00;04;19;18 - 00;04;27;09
Paul Chapman
What laws have they broken when when they're coming... Have you group those as far as referrals out or does it span a wide spectrum.

00;04;27;09 - 00;04;28;23
Judge Charles Baker
It's a wide spectrum.

00;04;28;24 - 00;04;29;28
Charles Newsom
Judge Sarah Capp.

00;04;30;08 - 00;05;07;25
Judge Sarah Capp
With district court the difference is that more people walk in the doors of a district courtroom than any other court, more so than your circuit court, more so than your appellate courts, more so than your Supreme Court. So I have more direct contact with litigants than any other court system. This is their first impression of the judiciary. And so by giving individuals this first impression that there is positive outcomes that can occur and that everyone makes a mistake and you're given the chance to right that, I think that that's making a difference.

00;05;08;13 - 00;05;19;24
Charles Newsom
Judges like Baker and Capp have worked to create opportunity for people in their courts to find a positive outcome alternative to traditional sentencing like jail time or fines.

00;05;19;28 - 00;05;31;29
Judge Charles Baker
We initially got together with our county adult education program and we said we want to try to find some solutions so that people can position themselves better in the future so they don't end up back in court.

00;05;32;08 - 00;05;44;25
Paul Chapman
Tell me about how that actually happens. So when someone comes to court, you know, a certain population that you're looking at or situation that you would allow to participate in this.

00;05;45;02 - 00;06;05;05
Judge Charles Baker
I decided that the fairest way to assess what we needed to do was every single person that appears in front of me after I've talked to them about sentencing, I asked them, Do you have the ability to pay a fine? I ask every single person whether it's a $70 fine or whether they owe thousands of dollars in fines.

00;06;05;24 - 00;06;21;16
Judge Charles Baker
Ask them. And then when they answer, sometimes I'll do a little more digging. Sometimes I just have people that'll say, Yeah, I can pay that. And then I follow it up and I say, Well, are you employed? And they say, Well, no, I don't have a job, but I can come up with $200 if you'll give me a couple of weeks to do that.

00;06;22;01 - 00;06;54;23
Judge Charles Baker
That's not a solution to me. It's not about the court bringing in that money. It's about helping that person avoid this kind of problem in the future. And so when they say to me, I'm unemployed or I'm only working 20 hours a week or I've got a wife and four kids at home, then I say to them, okay, I'm going to direct you to our adult education people who do our initial assessment, and then we're going to provide you with some help so that you not only can address the fine or the sentence in this case, but that we can help you prevent this in the future.

00;06;54;27 - 00;07;25;03
Judge Sarah Capp
Judge Baker reached out to me before I took the bench and gave me an opportunity to come to his court and observe. And I saw what he does. And I'm a believer in that. As far as perspective, that always impacts where people stand. In my perspective, I was a public defender for 15 years and as a public defender, I spent my professional life representing indigent people.

00;07;25;03 - 00;07;48;12
Judge Sarah Capp
And from being exposed to that, I understand that there are individuals that financially that's a burden that many don't understand and understanding how that works with the court system, I knew that that was something I wanted to be able to offer from the judiciary aspect. Our approach has been, you know, we have, of course, you know, legal limitations.

00;07;48;17 - 00;08;16;06
Judge Sarah Capp
We can't just defer something in regards to a DWI or some type of a violent offense. Now, if they need to work off their fines and cost because of that, we can refer to the court referral program. But I won't judgment postpone or again not make a finding of guilt because that's important. A lot of these individuals, they want an opportunity to keep it off of their record and it legally I can do that,

00;08;16;13 - 00;08;30;02
Judge Sarah Capp
I want to give them that chance. And so by keeping it off their record and them having the ability to walk away without owing fines and cost and completion of programs or getting something in return. And so that's what we've utilized.

00;08;30;19 - 00;08;35;24
Paul Chapman
What are the biggest needs that you've seeing and the people that are in front of you are having?

00;08;36;16 - 00;09;09;25
Judge Sarah Capp
Unfortunately, I think with the court system, we've got a number of of needs. First and foremost, I think you have people that don't have the ability or the means to learn how to make the right decisions. So I think that if you provide them a roadmap of what they can do here forward and give them hope that, you know, there is light at the end of the tunnel that makes a difference with the needs that come in front of me financially,

00;09;09;25 - 00;09;30;09
Judge Sarah Capp
they just can't keep up. I mean, the fines continue to grow and with the fines continuing to grow, if they don't feel like there's ever going to be an end, they give up. So this type of a program again gives them a chance that they may be able to walk away and be straight with the court system. And so I tell them, you know, we're even.

00;09;30;09 - 00;09;35;02
Judge Sarah Capp
You don't owe the court system anything else. And and it's just a sigh of relief that they have.

00;09;36;01 - 00;09;51;02
Charles Newsom
Judge Wendy Sharman and Judge Amy Grimes preside over specialty courts in Fort Smith, Arkansas. They provide options other than jail time or fines Judge Sharum in a DWI court. Judge Grimes in a court for low risk, low need offenders called Rise Court.

00;09;51;02 - 00;10;00;18
Paul Chapman
You were talking about needs, high risk, high needs, low risk, low need. How do you do the assessment to determine what needs are?

00;10;01;12 - 00;10;03;22
Judge Wendy Sharum
First they go through a R.A.N.T. assessment.

00;10;03;23 - 00;10;04;04
Paul Chapman
Okay. R.A.N.T.

00;10;04;20 - 00;10;22;25
Judge Wendy Sharum
Yes. And once we find that they qualify under that, we can go down further paths, the person who's doing the assessment, to determine what other needs they might have. Okay. And to help determine not exactly the case plan, but how we need to treat that person.

00;10;23;12 - 00;10;43;04
Judge Amy Grimes
It also has components that will give us, for our purposes, case plan options. And so my group, my team can start putting together this is what this person needs as a whole. We are fortunate that we share most of the same team, our Adult Ed. is on the team, our director of Adult Ed is on our team, which is fabulous because she has lots of insight.

00;10;43;18 - 00;10;57;26
Judge Amy Grimes
We have someone I'm preparing for someone to come onto my team from Western Arkansas Counseling and Guidance and they're already on Judge Sharum’s. We have a mental health organization here in town called Bly Thomas. And then who else are we have? We have prosecutor, both our state and city prosecutors.

00;10;58;14 - 00;10;59;18
Paul Chapman
How do you keep the case plan.

00;11;00;04 - 00;11;05;17
Judge Wendy Sharum
The probation officer oversees it. The treatment providers actually come up with the case plan.

00;11;05;17 - 00;11;07;22
Paul Chapman
They kind of document, what the plan is, and.

00;11;07;22 - 00;11;13;11
Judge Wendy Sharum
Then the people on our treatment team, we have liaisons from each treatment provider that comes in and reports.

00;11;13;11 - 00;11;17;20
Judge Amy Grimes
And that's an ongoing process of sort of tweaking how we want that and how, you know, right.

00;11;17;20 - 00;11;38;11
Judge Wendy Sharum
We've tweaked our court a lot. We start out with a format and then we say, well, this doesn't work. We're going to change this. We're going to try change some of our phases. And we originally had people doing too many things at once because in that phase one, you really want them to start just stabilizing, getting used to coming to court and going to treatment.

00;11;38;11 - 00;11;45;03
Judge Wendy Sharum
Those are the most important things in phase one is to stay sober and to go to treatment and show up in court.

00;11;45;04 - 00;11;46;09
Paul Chapman
How often do they come to court?

00;11;46;19 - 00;11;55;11
Judge Wendy Sharum
And we have court twice a month on the second and fourth Fridays of the month. They have to report in to a probation officer. They have to call in daily for drug testing.

00;11;55;16 - 00;11;57;13
Paul Chapman
So you're checking status at that point?

00;11;57;13 - 00;11;58;13
Judge Wendy Sharum
Yes, that's correct.

00;11;59;09 - 00;12;02;08
Paul Chapman
Seeing if you need to modify any, give additional instruction.

00;12;02;11 - 00;12;21;08
Judge Wendy Sharum
And one of the things we changed early on, we had people going not only to group meetings, individual counseling, probation office meetings, checking in daily for your drug screens. And we had them doing NA as well two or three times a week. And it was just too much in phase one. So we moved that to a different phase.

00;12;21;24 - 00;12;36;22
Judge Amy Grimes
Which is the provided the learning process for me to say, okay, and because my people are low risk, low needs, they'll be less, there'll be fewer phases. We'll have three phases. But we also know my folks, a lot of them have jobs and they don't have the kind of jobs that are going to understand being gone all of the time.

00;12;36;22 - 00;12;52;09
Judge Amy Grimes
So we've tried to have some common sense and they're going to come to court on the first Friday, and then there's going to be they have to have another check in, whether it be court or however we're going to do that second check in, and then we're going to monitor the folks that our team says, “So-and-so is having a problem, we'll have our probation officer get in contact with them.”

00;12;52;09 - 00;13;11;19
Judge Amy Grimes
So we've developed kind of a way to keep you in the program, keep you working. But our goal in the new Rise Court is a six month window and try to get our folks through in six months back out without their charge back in life and provide a bit of everything that they say they need or want if they need assistance.

00;13;12;02 - 00;13;14;22
Paul Chapman
In general, the motivation is to get.

00;13;14;22 - 00;13;15;06
Judge Wendy Sharum
Is to get out of jail time.

00;13;15;06 - 00;13;20;11
Paul Chapman
To get out of jail time, and then Rise Court. It's the potential of not having a charge?

00;13;20;11 - 00;13;48;03
Judge Amy Grimes
Yes, In Rise Court it's you know, I'm here on a shoplifting charge, which is going to be shown as a theft of property conviction. And when somebody runs my background check to get a job as a cashier at McDonald's or at a clothing store here in town or any type of employment, they're going to say, what's this? And the minute that person has to say, well, you know, I did something stupid and I got a shoplifting charge, that employer is going to think I may hesitate.

00;13;48;03 - 00;14;05;23
Judge Amy Grimes
Here we see them, can't read a check, can't get somewhere on time. Don't think, Well, what difference does it make? I can't get a good job anyway because they don't have a GED or a certificate where they've got some specialized training. They think, Whatever. You know what? Just maybe I should just pay this fine and cost. And

00;14;06;04 - 00;14;27;19
Judge Amy Grimes
But there's some... In our city court there's some, depending on what's happened, there's restitution involved. How much did you shoplift? There's a community service involved that which sometimes causes some problems at work. And so then they begin to realize, hey, wait a minute, this is going to have some... I should probably take advantage of some help because this is going to have some long term ramifications.

00;14;27;19 - 00;14;47;08
Judge Amy Grimes
So those kind of things are what they begin to realize, oh, this is going to affect me. And they're a little bit hopeless because nobody's ever stopped to say, you know, there's a different path and a lot of folks will say, Wow, I didn't know that you all had all these things that you would offer to me. We've had several, even through the Hope court docket that have done really well.

00;14;47;08 - 00;15;05;22
Judge Amy Grimes
We have a young man who we have satisfied some of his fans and calls because he completed Hope court. He went on to get a good job. He started in on a... He was the pilot person in a program at Adult Ed and then they ended up switching him over to get his OSHA certificate to get that training so he can get a raise at work.

00;15;06;01 - 00;15;23;27
Judge Amy Grimes
And he's been... And when he came to help court initially, I didn't start out with him. I inherited him. But I know that the court staff was like, Oh, this poor guy's not going to make it. And he did and he's done well. And I'm his wife. He he encouraged his wife to go to Adult Ed, and she's now going to get further education.

00;15;23;27 - 00;15;35;13
Judge Amy Grimes
So he's a success story and and he'll tell you, I didn't know that. I didn't realize that I could do my life could change, that I could do something different than what the path I was on.

00;15;35;13 - 00;15;45;08
Charles Newsom
White County District Court Judge Mark Derrick has found he has new options for sentencing in his court through coordination with the 100 Families initiative.

00;15;46;12 - 00;16;08;24
Judge Mark Derrick
I had two options. Either I could dismiss charge, I find him guilty and maybe put him on probation. But the only alternative I had for some charges was just put someone on probation without sentence and put them out a year. But then they're sitting there, they've got no classes, they've got no help. All I'm doing is maybe put them on probation, no assistance.

00;16;09;11 - 00;16;27;13
Judge Mark Derrick
And it never worked. That never worked. You put them on probation on drug charge. I really never did it because I didn't think that it would work. Once 100 Families came in, then they were actually able to assist probation.

00;16;27;28 - 00;17;07;10
Jaimi Zeringue
I'm Jamie Zorrang. I'm a white county case manager in the district courts. Technically, I work for Restore Hope under 100 families, but I follow around Judge Derek in the courtrooms. So I go to all of his White County courtrooms and take his referrals. What we do with 100 families is we bring in all of our clients and do an assessment and identify their areas of need and then make a plan to help them stabilize their family life and connect them to resources in the area that can help them, along with providers that specialize in the areas of need that they have.

00;17;07;21 - 00;17;30;29
Jaimi Zeringue
When you add in the alternative sentencing component, there's an aspect of it too, where we're bridging the gap between them and the court system and helping them navigate the court system. Because court is really scary place. So we kind of advocate for them in the court system and help them understand what's going on, what processes are going on, and then we report back to the judge on their progress.

00;17;31;14 - 00;17;37;26
Jaimi Zeringue
And we'll also have them navigate probation and fines and fees and communicate with the clerks, things like that.

00;17;38;06 - 00;18;06;17
Judge Mark Derrick
And all of these people, they have all of these problems and these stories. You hear what the how, where they started, a lot of them is as kids and every hole that they've stepped in along the way, or maybe not everyone, but a bunch of them and a lot of them had no education and no guidance on how to pick themselves up to drag themselves out of a hole.

00;18;07;04 - 00;18;30;08
Judge Mark Derrick
I see one problem. I see a shoplifting charge. Well, yeah, we all know or we know that most of the time that a shoplifting charge isn't just a result of somebody wanting to to steal something. But, you know, there are a lot of underlying problems that need addressing.

00;18;30;08 - 00;18;59;19
Jaimi Zeringue
I think that the first thing that alternative sentencing offers initially is it's incentive. It's incentive for self-improvement. I have to reassure them a lot that it's possible for them to improve. They usually don't feel like they can. And and knowing that at the end of the day, if they just do what we tell them to do, there's some break out there for them.

00;18;59;19 - 00;19;20;00
Jaimi Zeringue
That's that's a pretty big incentive to get them to start thinking about, well, maybe I could use a little counseling or maybe I could use some education or maybe, yeah, I probably do have a drug problem, that I need some help with. So typically, once somebody is court involved, they have driver's license issues. They're on probation with probation fees.

00;19;20;00 - 00;19;49;12
Jaimi Zeringue
They've got to be passing drug tests. They've probably got to go to classes. Then they have their court dates and all while they're trying to put their lives back together. And it's a it's a whole lot to keep track of. And then communicating with the court clerks and their probation officers and kind of all of us partnering together to make sure they fully understand what their requirements are, that they have the resources that they need to meet those requirements and to really give them a chance at turning things around.

00;19;49;12 - 00;20;18;06
Jaimi Zeringue
When you've got someone with substance abuse and generational poverty and no education and no family support, they are not going to become assets to society unless we can interfere on a holistic level and give them love and community support and give them resources. There's there's no option for them. When you're trapped under thousands and thousands and thousands of dollars worth of fines.

00;20;18;06 - 00;20;30;08
Jaimi Zeringue
You have a criminal record and you have a drug habit and you're trying to keep your family afloat. What hope is there? And so of course, you want to use drugs because that's not a reality that anybody wants to live in.

00;20;30;08 - 00;20;51;01
Judge Mark Derrick
Because, you know, most of these people that I see aren't happy. They’re not happy. Their life is miserable. A lot of them don't know why, but they're miserable. But 100 Families gets to go through there and they get to find all of the broken parts and they get to find people that can fix them.

00;20;51;08 - 00;21;09;24
Judge Mark Derrick
That can fill in every missing spot. You know, it's kind of like a puzzle. Well, all right, this person is this puzzle. And as you can see, you can't even see what it is because so many pieces are missing and then they come up with people in the community. Oh, I can put this piece in. Oh, I can put that piece in or I can help you.

00;21;09;24 - 00;21;22;10
Judge Mark Derrick
Let me let me I think we can move these around and see if this doesn’t work. And then you all get through. And you've got this beautiful you've got this beautiful puzzle all put together and it's got a really pretty picture.

00;21;22;19 - 00;21;50;29
Jaimi Zeringue
So the cool thing about District Court is you are seeing a wide variety of charges and a wide variety of people. Typically you're you're able to interfere at a level before they get to charges that are life changing and debilitating that are just going to hold them back for the rest of their lives. And if you can interfere at the district court level, you are creating a turn around before they end up in prison.

00;21;51;21 - 00;22;12;01
Judge Mark Derrick
I live and I think most district court judges do, and probably not so much for circuit judges because they don't see the people so often. But I think most of the district court judges live for the good stories. And now with 100 Families, you know, I'm getting 50 times more good stories.

00;22;12;07 - 00;22;35;13
Jaimi Zeringue
One of the really cool parts of my job is seeing generation kill cycles of poverty and substance abuse ending. I've seen a lot of clients that they get recovery help and then their brother sees how well they're doing and they decide to get recovery help and they come to us and they're like, okay, now how do we get our dad on board?

00;22;35;13 - 00;22;52;01
Jaimi Zeringue
And then we start working with their dad, and pretty soon the grandma is like, Oh yeah, I need help as well. But now I know who to go to for help because my grandson got clean, you know, five years ago in this program. And so they know who to reach out to.

00;22;52;27 - 00;23;12;02
Judge Mark Derrick
It's amazing to see these people get their lives together because that that's all I think just about all the district court judges want. We want the people to get their act together, stay out of court, stay out of trouble, take care of their kids. You know that. I keep telling them, you know, you got to take care of your kids.

00;23;12;02 - 00;23;26;14
Judge Mark Derrick
These are their gift from God. And it's just... it's just awesome. It's awesome.

00;23;26;14 - 00;23;38;29
Charles Newsom
So the idea is to offer people in district court alternatives to a traditional fine or jail time. But how does that really work and how is it working for the judges and what are the outcomes for the community?

00;23;39;08 - 00;23;47;20
Paul Chapman
Why should maybe another court consider going through all the trouble that you've gone through and working it out and the community providers?

00;23;47;20 - 00;24;05;27
Judge Charles Baker
And because you can see the effect in the community, that's the end result that you see is the community is different as a result of the opportunities that we're providing people. You know, I've had some people ask me, they say, well, just generally, are you pretty easy on people or are you pretty easy going? And that is not me at all.

00;24;06;09 - 00;24;23;23
Judge Charles Baker
I think probably statistically I put more people in jail every year than any other district judge in the state. At least that's the way that it feels. But that's not ever my first choice. That's not what I want to do. You've got to force me to put you in jail. So I would say to judges that this is going to make your life easier.

00;24;24;08 - 00;24;38;09
Judge Charles Baker
Initially, it's going to be hard, but once you get all the hurdles out of the way, it's going to make your life easier. Your court is going to be an easier process for people. There are just so many positives to it that is certainly worthwhile.

00;24;38;10 - 00;25;01;14
Judge Sarah Capp
So we're at 18 months now and my observations have been that it's been a success with our stats, and I'm real big with statistics, we look at, you know, monthly, where are we at with our completion rates, where are we with the different components of the program And across the board, about 50% of the people that participate in the program completed.

00;25;01;21 - 00;25;31;22
Judge Sarah Capp
Sometimes it's higher depending on if it's adult ed or the community service. But astoundingly, people are completing it and we have some that come back and want to do a second phase of it and they are really provided relief. And I think a lot of gratitude. I have had people that thank me for giving them the chance. I've heard from the probation officers that people have been moved to tears behind closed door, they've given the chance to to do this.

00;25;31;22 - 00;25;36;07
Judge Sarah Capp
And it's just not something at a district court level that's been offered previously.

00;25;36;28 - 00;25;45;10
Paul Chapman
Do you have any stories about how you've kind of moved someone to an alternative rather than fees, fines, jail time and and it's worked out well.

00;25;45;16 - 00;26;02;21
Judge Charles Baker
We literally do that every day and sometimes we don't get feedback. So we don't know how it all worked out in the end. But my measure of success is that I don't see that person back in court again. My docket, one of the details that's listed on it is I see people's home address, but the vast majority of our people are local folks.

00;26;02;21 - 00;26;13;11
Judge Charles Baker
And so if they get in trouble again, I'm the only district judge. I'll be the guy there in front of the second time. And so it's a success to me that we don't see them again. That's that's my measure of success.

00;26;14;04 - 00;26;26;28
Paul Chapman
The way you you all do. Your courts, by choice, seems like it takes a lot more time and effort. What would you estimate? You know, extra time.

00;26;28;18 - 00;26;33;09
Judge Amy Grimes
DWI court takes longer, probably, as extra time as Rise I would think.

00;26;34;03 - 00;27;05;12
Judge Wendy Sharum
It does. But I wouldn't give it up. When we had originally taken the bench, we were going to switch off and do like I would do this year or six months and then she would come on. I can't imagine giving it my DWI court right now. I spend a lot of time praying about these people, worrying about these people. It it's different than my regular docket because you do you see them on this journey and you want them to get to the to the graduation.

00;27;05;12 - 00;27;36;20
Judge Wendy Sharum
So so, you know, I see them. They're invested in their sobriety and they're trying to better their lives. And it's it's I get it. I get emotionally involved. And I mean, I have to take... I sanction people when they need to be sanctioned. If they fail the program, I'm... They're sentenced, but I want everybody to succeed. And so I spend a lot of time. I check with the check in with the probation officer and the treatment team.

00;27;36;20 - 00;28;12;14
Judge Wendy Sharum
We email constantly about the status of people. If they mess up. We want to take care of it quickly so that they can still make it through the program. Why? There is a particular... It's just when I see somebody buy into the program, when they first get here, they usually look, their palor is gray, they're unhealthy. But about a month or two into the program, once they start getting those sober days, you can see a change.

00;28;12;14 - 00;28;34;06
Judge Wendy Sharum
And once somebody buys into the program, it's you know, after I've told a lot of people, it's just been my pleasure to see you get where you are right now. They're doing all the hard work. We're there to guide them. The treatment team. I'm there to to help, but they're doing that hard work and they see how their lives change.

00;28;34;11 - 00;28;41;08
Judge Wendy Sharum
And it's just such a pleasure to get to do that. That's it's the best part of my job.

00;28;41;29 - 00;28;57;20
Paul Chapman
You know, some cynics may say that you're spending a lot of time to help folks that you know are guilty of of some crimes and maybe we should just ratchet up some punishment and fix it.

00;28;57;20 - 00;28;58;25
Judge Wendy Sharum
What we can all.

00;28;58;25 - 00;29;01;00
Paul Chapman
Clearly, you don't think that.

00;29;01;02 - 00;29;24;17
Judge Wendy Sharum
We can always fill up the jails. I was a public defender for 26 years. I did juvenile court for 26 years. And I guess that's where my passion about alternative courts comes in, because I come from a perspective where I saw that a lot of the problems that people have come from trauma and things that happened in their family, it's a cycle.

00;29;24;20 - 00;29;45;08
Judge Wendy Sharum
We see it over and over again. I had been a public defender for so long that I was saying second and third generations by the time I left. And so if you can stop that, that's what we need to do. We don't need to be filling jails. And there are people that belong in jail. And I put people in jail all the time.

00;29;46;23 - 00;30;05;21
Judge Wendy Sharum
But if we can change people's lives and make them citizens, I have a lady right now. We were not going to allow her in DWI court because we thought she had cognitive issues. We thought we were setting her up to fail. She could not possibly get through the program. She couldn't even find the courthouse. She'd been here two or three times and she couldn't get to the courthouse.

00;30;06;28 - 00;30;31;13
Judge Wendy Sharum
So we had her evaluated in depth and they said, well, she can do it. So we put her in and what we found out was that she didn't have cognitive issues. She had been drinking every single day. And she was she was causing herself. It seemed like brain damage is what it seemed like. She wound up she couldn't get sober on her own.

00;30;31;13 - 00;31;05;18
Judge Wendy Sharum
So we sent her to inpatient treatment and she just soared from there, she she decided that she wanted to live, but now she just graduated on September 9th and she's doing very well. I was worried about her because her mother got sick and almost and she did pass away. But we were worried that this person was going to regress because of that emotional trauma and stress, but she she maintained her sobriety and she stepped up.

00;31;05;22 - 00;31;26;14
Judge Wendy Sharum
She did more than she was supposed to do in the program. She was guarding that sobriety. And she told us that she was so glad that for the last year of her mother's life, she was sober and got to spend quality time with her mother. She's now out in the community. She works with the Community Rescue Mission. She's on several boards here in the community.

00;31;26;25 - 00;31;57;19
Judge Wendy Sharum
So she's giving back. This is this is a ripple effect. People can repair relationships with her family, with their friends. I have another lady who graduated in the past three months and she has a relative who has issues with drugs and alcohol and she's helping her. And, you know, it's it helps our community.

00;31;57;19 - 00;32;12;20
Charles Newsom
Thanks for joining us for this look at the courts and alternative options to traditional sentencing. In the next episode of Smart Justice, we will flip the script to hear how the process works for the people coming to court. Be sure to join us.

00;32;14;16 - 00;32;40;16
Ed Lowry
Thanks to our guests, Judge Charles Baker, Judge Sarah Capp, Judge Wendy Sharman, Judge Amy Grimes, Jamie Zorrang and Judge Mark Derrick. Special thanks to Arkansas Churches for Life for Sponsoring. Musical credits include “The Simple Truth” by Dr. Delight, “Tangles” by Aaron Sprinkle, “In Love” by Moments, “Sigh of Relief” by Moments. Music is licensed through soundstripe.com. Smart Justice is a work of Restore Hope.

00;32;41;03 - 00;32;55;20
Ed Lowry
Please consider helping us produce more work like this by becoming a sponsor at www.smartjustice.com.