The Law and the Lawyers - S2E4

Many Arkansans in prison and/or with children in the child welfare system started their legal engagement with misdemeanor crimes like traffic tickets, driving with no insurance, or theft. Community Diversion in District Courts is a key move to prevent future incarceration and/or foster care. 

In this episode we talk with law enforcement and prosecutors. It is our hope to see the expansion of Community Diversion to all Arkansas District Courts. 

Transcript

00;00;09;07 - 00;00;49;09
Sheriff Eric Higgins
If we're coming from a perspective of how do we create a safer community? Sometimes a safer community is having someone in jail. Sometimes a safer community is diverting someone so that they can go out and fulfill their their responsibilities. Being able to support themselves, being able to support their their responsibility to their families if they have a family. That's an outcome that because ultimately is it's a community where people are being responsible, they're being held accountable, and they're doing the things they're supposed to do to create a safer community.

00;00;50;24 - 00;00;58;24
Charles Newsom
This is season two, episode four of the Smart Justice Podcast. The Law and the Lawyers.

00;01;00;19 - 00;01;07;02
Paul Chapman
Crime and Punishment are hot topics. Are their solutions different than what we're hearing about at a national level?

00;01;07;06 - 00;01;14;18
Judge Amy Grimes
They're trying to stop that cycle so that we don't see their children. They don't see them in juvenile court. We don't see them headed to circuit court.

00;01;14;26 - 00;01;21;28
Chief Jamie Hammond
We give someone a traffic ticket and they're scared. They can't pay their ticket. And what they do is they don't show for court, I think is going to go away well it doesn’t go away.

00;01;21;28 - 00;01;28;09
Judge Charles Baker
It's not about the court bringing in that money. It's about helping that person avoid this kind of problem in the future.

00;01;28;09 - 00;01;33;23
Paul Chapman
There is a different way to approach justice that has a better return on investment.

00;01;33;24 - 00;01;40;22
Sheriff Phillip Miller
The bad people need to be in jail and stay there. Folks that are suffering from just social ills, they don’t need to be here.

00;01;41;00 - 00;01;49;06
Paul Chapman
That seems to strengthen both law enforcement and courts and tie that together with community resources.

00;01;49;11 - 00;01;57;23
Judge Amy Grimes
That's what makes it worthwhile. That little bit of extra time you spend working on it. But if you can't do a little mercy when you're here, then it's not worth being here.

00;01;57;23 - 00;02;06;20
Paul Chapman
And then track the impact to communities and better outcomes. And we're calling this approach Smart Justice.

00;02;09;03 - 00;02;28;28
Ed Lowry
Smart Justice is a work of Restore Hope and partner organizations. Restore Hope is a software and services organization that helps communities achieve better outcomes for justice and child welfare efforts. Smart Justice is focused on optimizing the system by improving the relationships among its parts.

00;02;31;05 - 00;02;58;14
Charles Newsom
We are going upstream this season of Smart Justice, discussing how to intersect with people seeking into the Justice system, helping them find a way out through community diversion and alternative sentencing in a district court. But how does that approach sync with police and attorneys dealing with these cases? Paul Chapman spoke with members of law enforcement and prosecutors about how this approach impacts public safety.

00;02;59;26 - 00;03;25;02
Paul Chapman
Welcome to this edition of Smart Justice. Today, we're going to talk about the importance of maintaining public safety as we engage in community diversion. We're here today with the Pulaski County Sheriff, Sheriff Eric Higgins, to talk about the importance of the law and the attorneys involvement in community diversion. Hey welcome, Sheriff. Thanks so much for sitting down with us to talk.

00;03;25;07 - 00;03;26;15
Sheriff Eric Higgins
I appreciate you. Appreciation you.

00;03;26;27 - 00;03;56;28
Paul Chapman
So, Sheriff, you know, as we're talking about diverting folks moving upstream and the district courts to divert individuals that are likely to become further entangled with the law at felony levels, maybe the children entering into foster care, the thing that we have to always think about is public safety. And so I'd just like to start with how long have you been in law enforcement and then how long have you been sheriff?

00;03;57;11 - 00;04;17;21
Sheriff Eric Higgins
So I've been in law enforcement, I guess, about 34 years. Well, maybe a little bit longer than that. I've been sheriff since 2019. Getting ready to start my second term as Pulaski County Sheriff. My original career was at Little Rock Police Department. I spent 30 years there, retired as assistant chief. Spent ten years as assistant chief there.

00;04;18;21 - 00;04;24;27
Paul Chapman
Can we just start with talking about your kind of vision or philosophy around policing?

00;04;25;18 - 00;04;48;24
Sheriff Eric Higgins
You know, as law enforcement, you know, we are to engage the community, try to ensure to prevent crime. You know, sometimes we'll we'll make a mistake in that, in law enforcement, we think all we're supposed to do is make arrests. And if we're making just the focus is making arrests, then we are missing the opportunity to prevent crime. And so we're going to make arrests.

00;04;48;24 - 00;05;12;29
Sheriff Eric Higgins
We want to get dangerous people off the street. We want to do those things, and we're required to do those things. But but in addition to that, I think is more important, is also trying to prevent crime. How can we engage in the community to prevent a person from getting involved in criminal activity? How can we partner with organizations to try to address the issues in the community that create an unsafe environment?

00;05;13;17 - 00;05;31;24
Sheriff Eric Higgins
How do we engage with people in the community to divert them, to have them see other opportunities? You know, when we look at crime, you know, sometimes we make a mistake and we think we look at crime as this obscure blob that's out there and we need to do something about this crime. Well, crime is committed by an individual.

00;05;32;19 - 00;06;08;07
Sheriff Eric Higgins
You know, it’s individual choices that people make, it's individual circumstances that lead people down the road that that maybe they can avoid if they had other opportunities or were educated about certain resources available to them. And so if we're going to deal with crime, we have to bring it down to a personal level, looking at individuals to keep them out of the criminal justice system or if they've entered into it for whether it's through a ticket or shoplifting or some misdemeanor offense.

00;06;08;20 - 00;06;35;27
Sheriff Eric Higgins
What's going on? How can we divert them from continuing on that road? Because if you have been in law enforcement for a while, you end up seeing some of the same people. You end up seeing charges, minor charges on the individual building to more serious charges. Sometimes people get trapped. Now, recognize that you have dangerous people out there. And we have to address those individuals who are a danger to society.

00;06;36;02 - 00;06;50;12
Paul Chapman
So, Sheriff, do you see a progression? I mean, 30 years plus in law enforcement, do you think that there's actually a progression of severity of of crime to folks kind of start down a path and it gets worse?

00;06;50;13 - 00;07;13;01
Sheriff Eric Higgins
There's two levels. It could get worse. More, more serious charges or just consistently the same charges. You know, consistently, maybe you have a shoplifting charge or you had, the possession charges. You have the failure to appear charges and you end up going to court on these minor things that you're not gonna spend 15 years in prison on. But but you have these minor charges and then you don't pay your fine.

00;07;13;01 - 00;07;41;21
Sheriff Eric Higgins
And there's a warrant for your arrest, and then you go to court on that. Maybe you do some time in the county jail on that or a community service and then you have a similar incident. And it's this continual cycle of something minor and you're staying stuck in that cycle, whether it's you're stuck because you're paying your fines and you can't ever get ahead because you're paying your fines or you you get your car towed for this traffic offense and and you don't have the money to get the car out.

00;07;41;21 - 00;07;59;15
Sheriff Eric Higgins
And because you can't get the car out, you can't go to go to work, you end up losing your job and then you can't pay your fine and you're scrambling, trying to regroup, you know, set your foundation again. So you have, I think, a significant number of people that are involved in that cycle. And then you have those who are who get more involved in more serious offenses.

00;07;59;15 - 00;08;20;09
Sheriff Eric Higgins
And it could be because of, you know, you lose you lose hope. I'm stuck in the system. And so I had to try something else to keep out of that system or I can't get a job because this is what is on my record and therefore I'm forced, or I think I'm forced into the avenue of of a more and more serious criminal activity or consistent criminal activity.

00;08;21;06 - 00;08;33;26
Charles Newsom
To gain additional perspective, Paul spoke to other members of law enforcement, including Phillip Miller, sheriff in Searcy County where community diversion methods are implemented in a district court.

00;08;34;03 - 00;09;02;11
Sheriff Phillip Miller
I've been asked that before. Well, are you soft on crime because you support these things? You... No. Bad people need to be in jail where bad people belong. People that have never learned any different have never seen any different, that want to do good. They don't need to be in my jail. People that are really suffering with mental health issues that this is a convenient place to get for them to get dropped.

00;09;03;00 - 00;09;33;00
Sheriff Phillip Miller
They don't need to be in my jail. You know, they need the resources like what's being provided. And that's what I see different. It's not I'm soft on crime. It's not, oh, you know, we... No. The bad people need to be in jail and stay there. It really shocks me to see people that are charged and convicted of sex crimes, sex assaults, child porn that get probation.

00;09;35;00 - 00;10;05;01
Sheriff Phillip Miller
Probation means you go home, you do what you want. You go see your probation officer once a month and don't. And you're good. I have a I have a hard time with that. You know, that's that's what I'm talking about. The sex crimes, the rapes, the assalts. That's violence against humanity. Or you get caught with with two grams of methamphetamine, like 25% of the population walking around out here.

00;10;05;01 - 00;10;51;29
Sheriff Phillip Miller
So, you know, you're going to. Yeah, you're going to go to jail for that. Why? Let's find out first time. Why? How can we divert that somewhere else then go from there. But but some of the some of the more violent crimes that that folks are out there committing and then they're either getting probation or they're spending a very small amount of their sentence in prison, and then they're back out. And when we talk about recidivism, most of the folks that are I mean, recidivism is just that, the same ones that just got let out are the same ones at the front door that have committed a new violent crime that are waiting to go back.

00;10;51;29 - 00;11;04;22
Sheriff Phillip Miller
Those are the folks that need to stay in prison. But folks that are suffering from from things like this, some just social ills that they've they've never seen a different way. They don't need to be here.

00;11;05;04 - 00;11;08;01
Charles Newsom
Van Buren Police Chief Jamie Hammond.

00;11;08;18 - 00;11;15;24
Paul Chapman
Chief, can you just talk to us a little bit about the programs that you're running here in the Van Buren Police Department?

00;11;15;29 - 00;11;41;01
Chief Jamie Hammond
We do, in cooperation with our district court, we have drug court. We have a drug court with them. We also have a DWI court. To start a mental health court, and then also a veterans court. And then our officers know about those just through a dialog that we have with them. And, and, and they let people know, defendants or I guess arrestees know that these options are available for them.

00;11;41;10 - 00;12;10;21
Chief Jamie Hammond
You know, there's times that we can use our discretion and maybe somebody needs to be arrested. Maybe they don't. A lot of times, as we all know, there are people that need to be arrested. People need to be in jail, that that's why we have jails. But many times that's not the case. And we our officers know that if they are involved in an incident where maybe someone needs to be arrested, but we can arrest them maybe at a later date, maybe with a warrant if we need be.

00;12;11;05 - 00;12;33;07
Chief Jamie Hammond
But in the meantime, defer them to one of these alternative courts or programs that we have to keep them from even being arrested. That's one of the things that we use. If they do have to be arrested, taken to jail. We're able to follow up with that person, with their attorney, just to make sure that they know that those options are available to them and that this isn't the end of the world for them.

00;12;33;21 - 00;12;50;27
Chief Jamie Hammond
You mentioned the traffic ticket example. We give someone a traffic ticket and they're scared they can't pay that ticket. And what do they do, they don't show up for court. They think it's going to go away. Well it doesn’t go away. Or maybe they forget, whatever the case may be. Our officers on their tickets, on the citations they... it's a rule.

00;12;51;03 - 00;13;05;26
Chief Jamie Hammond
It's a policy that we have that you have to put that person's phone number on the ticket so that we can follow up with them to say, hey, don't forget, Mr.. Mr. Chapman you have a court date on Friday. Show up. You’re not going to be thrown in jail for speeding. The judge is not going to make you write a check before you leave.

00;13;06;16 - 00;13;22;29
Chief Jamie Hammond
We can explain to them because it's scary. It's scary to go to court or to get a ticket or all those things. So we just we help ease their minds. And this is a very, very small example. But things like that is what we want to do to help prevent that, that from happening because if they don’t go to court,

00;13;22;29 - 00;13;36;01
Chief Jamie Hammond
you know what happens. They get a warrant. Next thing you know, they go to jail. They sit in jail for 30 days, maybe before they ever see the judge, because they don't take lightly to fail to secure warrants and then they're going to go to the court. Well in that 30 days, as you know, they're going to lose their job.

00;13;36;01 - 00;13;44;22
Chief Jamie Hammond
They're going to... Things happen to them just over a traffic ticket. So if we can help them help themselves with that ticket, then we're all ahead.

00;13;45;12 - 00;13;54;08
Paul Chapman
How would you want community diversion to be? What would be the right way to be able to preserve kind of public safety, but also provide with an opportunity.

00;13;54;08 - 00;14;23;11
Chief Jamie Hammond
I think I think there's a good amount of trust that you have to have with the community. For example, if if someone is responsible for a crime and the person say, the victim of that crime sees that person out on the streets, not not in jail or in prison, they want to know why. And when we tell them about diversion courts or alternative sentencing that we that we do, they have to be able to trust us when we tell them, hey, this is the best thing.

00;14;23;12 - 00;14;40;12
Chief Jamie Hammond
I promise you, this is better for that defendant and it's better for our community. And I think... So it starts with the trust, and as long as they trust us to know that that's the best decision, then I think I think that that that's that's where we start that conversation with

00;14;40;12 - 00;14;41;17
Charles Newsom
Sheriff Higgins.

00;14;41;28 - 00;15;03;24
Sheriff Eric Higgins
Oftentimes in law enforcement, you know, we’re involved, we make the arrest, we have probable cause to make the arrest. It's up to the courts to decide or the jury decide whether a conviction takes place. The prosecutor decides whether or not they going to move forward. Whether the charge is going to be reduced. They're involved in that aspect of it. Most of your law enforcement, we want the community to be safer.

00;15;05;16 - 00;15;23;11
Sheriff Eric Higgins
And I think it helps us to to be educated when we know we know that this person has been arrested, he's gone to jail or she's gone to jail. We know that part of it. But then we're kind of in the dark on the rest of it. We can look the person up and see that they went to prison or we go to court and they've spent 15 years in prison or whatever.

00;15;23;18 - 00;15;53;18
Sheriff Eric Higgins
We know that aspect of it. To help us keep from thinking it's is it's a prevention program over here, it's a diversion program. And is law enforcement trying to keep people safe or if we're involved in that and and we're educated about the successes of and how it moves forward, then we get a little bit more buy in because, you know, we want the community to be safe.

00;15;54;16 - 00;16;18;24
Sheriff Eric Higgins
You know, it's not that some people think all law enforcement put everybody in jail and that they're everybody's enemy. That's not the way most that's not way good law enforcement officers view the community. It's about safety and whether somebody spends 15 years in jail and never committed another crime or or they're diverted and don't commit a crime. Well, we want to know

00;16;18;24 - 00;16;46;22
Sheriff Eric Higgins
we have a safer community. That our system is is working. Our system is evaluating. It’s not just glad handing everybody and It's not hitting everybody, you know, heavy because we all know that, you know, it's it's not everybody needs to go to prison for the rest of their life. Some do, but not everybody. And so if we can get some buy in and that's what I see a system that's working to educate. The prosecutors involved.

00;16;46;22 - 00;17;09;02
Sheriff Eric Higgins
The public defenders are involved. And I think public defenders would appreciate the assistance. You know, they're trying to serve their client or... I’m leaning on public defenders, because most people you're talking about are going to be poor and they're not going to have the resources to hire an attorney and pay those fines and do all that. So they're going to be dependent on on the public defender's office.

00;17;09;15 - 00;17;53;09
Sheriff Eric Higgins
And we know that that that office, they have a large caseload and they're trying to process a lot of people. And most people don't go to trial. Most people that have charges against them settle that between their attorney and the prosecutor. And so there's a lot of decisions being made in district court, and I think if the public defender knew they had an advocate, that's going to be able to look at a situation a little more deeper than they can to to assist in their assessment.

00;17;53;09 - 00;18;06;16
Sheriff Eric Higgins
And if it's done right, then you have the buy in of the prosecutor that knows that this individual was not working for the defendant while they're trying to assist the defendant, they're trying to assess what's best for our community.

00;18;07;00 - 00;18;15;21
Charles Newsom
Which brings us to another perspective, the prosecutors. How do those prosecutors working in courts with diversion programs view the process?

00;18;16;13 - 00;18;37;07
Colton Pace
Uh, well, my name is Colton Pace. I’m a deputy prosecuting attorney. I've been in the position for about four and a half years now. One of my responsibilities and what's particularly about this institute and my involvement today is that I'm involved with the DWI court, one of the alternatives sentencing courts in Sebastian County. And I serve as the prosecutor in that position.

00;18;37;15 - 00;19;04;00
Colton Pace
One of my primary responsibilities is to filter folks in that have criminal charges, determine whether they're going to be suitable for the court, looking at, determining whether they're going to be able to get through that program, whether they have certain charges that are going to disqualify from the program. There are a few disqualifying factors. Obviously, violent criminals for the most part, we don't want to let let into those courts anything of a sexual nature.

00;19;05;03 - 00;19;25;01
Colton Pace
We're not in support of, generally from my office. Those are just kind of some some of the preliminary things. If if you're interested in the program, the biggest benefit is that you don't have to do jail time. And with most DWI ones, you only have one day of jail. So a lot of folks don't like to go through that process if they can

00;19;25;07 - 00;19;47;25
Colton Pace
do their one day of jail and not have to do the court. But if they feel like they have an issue with alcohol dependency or some sort of drug dependency, we can assist and send them to that court. Even if it is just a DWI one. The diversion program offers sobriety and the option not to have to do jail. So many folks that get DWIs are professionals or have family.

00;19;47;25 - 00;20;10;21
Colton Pace
They don't want to be taken away from that job or that family. They could potentially lose your job. And Sebastian County and I know most of the courts at the state for your second DWI, it's often 14 days in jail. For your third, it's 90 days in jail. That's devastating to a lot of folks in their jobs. And so this offers an opportunity to get sober, to enter into counseling.

00;20;10;21 - 00;20;36;17
Colton Pace
We offer multiple different counseling agencies they can go to. We drug testing. We test them for alcohol, give them that, hold them accountable through that program and give them the option to do that program. I think sobriety is the biggest carrot out of this program. I think a lot of folks don't realize that they have a problem. We have so many folks that come in just to avoid jail time.

00;20;36;17 - 00;20;47;21
Colton Pace
And at the end of the program, they realize they did have a real substance abuse issue. And that's very important to see. It's it's a great thing to see folks come around and recover by the end of it.

00;20;48;06 - 00;21;03;27
Donald Raney
I would say 70 to 80% of the people who come to the district court system are addicted to marijuana, meth, alcohol. And they need help and their families need help to survive.

00;21;04;25 - 00;21;15;04
Charles Newsom
Donald Rainey, prosecutor in White County where the organization 100 Families works in conjunction with this court to connect people with resources like addiction treatment.

00;21;15;22 - 00;21;25;03
Donald Raney
The district court system. Now we have 14 departments of District Court in White County, and I am the prosecuting attorney in seven of them.

00;21;25;28 - 00;21;28;09
Paul Chapman
And how long have you been prosecuting?

00;21;28;09 - 00;21;55;00
Donald Raney
Since since 2013, when the new district court system went into effect. Before Arkansas went to the district court system, which all counties have district courts and you have various departments within that district court system. We had a split system. It was called city court and municipal court. The larger cities or county seats had a a municipal court.

00;21;55;27 - 00;22;21;27
Donald Raney
Most of the smaller towns had a city court. And I was a city court judge for 34 and a half years. Had absolutely no support, no nothing like this. And we kept seeing the same people over and over again. Whether it was speeding, you know, didn't matter. It was tied to an addiction. And we just we didn't have anything.

00;22;22;15 - 00;22;34;29
Donald Raney
And I think now, man, what if I had been able to direct some of those people as a city court judge to these programs. May have made a big effect.

00;22;34;29 - 00;22;39;00
Paul Chapman
Thirty years as a judge. What tools? I mean, you had fines and jail, right?

00;22;39;00 - 00;22;49;02
Donald Raney
That's all we had. We didn't have a probation department. And should have said this. The district courts I'm working in.

00;22;49;02 - 00;23;12;16
Donald Raney
Nearly all of them have a probation department and that probation officer is willing to work with 100 Families, tandemly to do some classes, do some training, do some treatment and everything. I didn't have a probation department. I had a police officer or two and me.

00;23;12;16 - 00;23;16;20
Paul Chapman
If someone is not paying their fines, giving them more fines doesn’t nessessarily change the behavior.

00;23;17;01 - 00;23;53;13
Donald Raney
No, no. The you got to have something other than that to change someone's behavior. And again, that's why I'm tickled that the 100 families has a person in court that we can, before that person gets out of court because sometimes they just come to court and tell you anything they want to do to get out the door, but they can talk with someone and they that that caseworker may be able to catch them and get their attention. Because I see people getting help now that didn't have that chance.

00;23;53;25 - 00;24;23;18
Donald Raney
Now, with addiction to something like meth or alcohol, you've got to have a place to go. You've got to stay for a while. You've got to you've got to be willing to commit. And that takes some facilities and treatment options and everything. But it also takes some help for that defendant’s families to exist. And what I'm seeing is that they do go into these programs.

00;24;23;18 - 00;24;31;10
Donald Raney
They do get, you know, help. It's not 100%. But even if we save one, it's worth the effort.

00;24;31;28 - 00;24;32;22
Charles Newsom
Colton Pace.

00;24;33;09 - 00;24;48;11
Ed Lowry
You're a prosecutor. I think when most people watch a lawyer shows or whatever, they think of the prosecutor as the one out to get the person right, make sure justice is served. So what is it about alternative sentencing options that is attractive to you as a prosecutor?

00;24;49;03 - 00;25;15;07
Colton Pace
90% of my job is what you described. So this is this is an interesting spin on me. And I was not the first person to buy into this whatsoever. But I do genuinely enjoy getting an opportunity to help folks. I feel like this is a different way to hold them accountable. It doesn't waste as many resources as incarcerating them or housing them, and it gives them the opportunity to better themselves and better their community ultimately.

00;25;16;25 - 00;25;33;20
Colton Pace
And it's very rewarding to see those graduates at the end of the day, you know, return to their families, do their jobs and be productive members of society. This is a different, different way of doing it. So...

00;25;33;20 - 00;26;00;17
Paul Chapman
So what do you think about the idea of actually further engaging, providing more resource to district court judges? The idea is that we can find individuals that are getting in trouble in misdemeanor court and try to help them address their issues so that... so that they don't continue on the road, which is likely to lead to serious trouble.

00;26;01;07 - 00;26;23;07
Sheriff Eric Higgins
I think is absolutely needed. You know, if then I think if the courts have the resources... Because it takes time. If you had the resources where someone's coming before the judge to do spend a little time with them and do a little background information on them to see what the real issues are and try to assist them with with with those issues.

00;26;23;07 - 00;26;39;27
Sheriff Eric Higgins
Because a lot of times you go to court, even if you're given a fine and you have no way of paying the fine. Or as you mentioned, if my driver's license suspended and how do I get to work, but I have this fine, I've got to pay. And if I don't pay my fine, I've got a failure to appear. And and, you know, the judge will give me another chance, most likely.

00;26;39;27 - 00;26;58;29
Sheriff Eric Higgins
And so I've gone through the system. I maybe spent a night in jail or longer. And the judge says, okay, I'm going to put you on probation again. You got to pay this fine and maybe double what it was originally. Well, you get out, you still dont’ have your driver's license. How do you pay your fine? And so you get into this cycle.

00;27;00;25 - 00;27;30;23
Sheriff Eric Higgins
So we can... if you have the resources to have that conversation, to to identify their background and their needs and in try to make those connections. And, you know, maybe it involves also looking at that fine. Can be suspended in the fine after a period of time? If it if it's giving them something to do with this going to a program or financial literacy, something else, can we remove that?

00;27;30;23 - 00;27;52;16
Sheriff Eric Higgins
Fine. You know, a lot of times what the courts do, at least around here, will give community service and they've got to go somewhere and work. Well, they can go somewhere and work that means they are not working. And so, you know, here at the county jail here, Pulaski County, we have a lot of people don't show up for our their community service.

00;27;53;08 - 00;28;15;29
Sheriff Eric Higgins
I think not because they don't want to do community service. But community service is not going to, you know, pay your light bill. And so you have a choice we have to make. Do I work so I can and so I can keep my lights on and food on the table? Or do I do community service to help pay off a fine that, you know, is not going to help meet my tangible needs at the moment?

00;28;17;05 - 00;28;17;18
Charles Newsom
Sheriff Philip Miller.

00;28;17;18 - 00;28;44;19
Sheriff Phillip Miller
I think moving upstream, moving into the court system where we can find people before they end up in jail and say, hey, let's, let's help, let's work on this problem now so that you don't get behind on your fines, you don't violate your probation and then end up in jail and things just spiral downhill. And a lot of it is just... White County’s a big county.

00;28;45;07 - 00;29;20;16
Sheriff Phillip Miller
But we are a very rural county in many ways. And so, so much of what we see is just generational. People have, have... 24 years I'm dealing with grandkids of people that I dealt with when I started my career for the for the same things, because there's there's no knowledge or no way to break that cycle. And having this program here, having it embedded in the district court system to help break that cycle before they ever end up in jail. That that would be really beneficial

00;29;20;16 - 00;29;48;04
Sheriff Phillip Miller
to what we've got going on. It frees our jails up, you know, and the cost to the citizen is less of an impact. We're not having to use your tax dollars to to incarcerate these people that have, you know, they've just never seen a different way. So now we're spending your tax dollars to incarcerate them. And they're not learning a different way in jail either.

00;29;48;04 - 00;30;12;23
Sheriff Phillip Miller
They get trapped in that cycle that some of them will stay in for the rest of their life, unfortunately. But I think if we embed this in a district court setting where they can get the help immediately, that's a much better use of our tax dollars. 100 Families come in and honestly, I think we really underestimated just the sheer volume of people that needed the kind of help that 100 Families is providing.

00;30;13;11 - 00;30;45;22
Sheriff Phillip Miller
And so they came in and the folks that are that are being able to be serviced by 100 Families is helping to make a difference. We see those same folks that were coming to jail several times for misdemeanor offenses through no fault, sometimes of their own, other than just a system that's broken, that is that have now found the help that they really needed through 100 Families to make that change in their life and to become successful at something in their life.

00;30;46;09 - 00;31;18;27
Sheriff Phillip Miller
And and which leads to me being successful at not coming back through the criminal justice program. Probably 80% of the folks that are in our jail, felony or misdemeanor, it deals with drugs. It deals with generational drug use, generational abuse and a lot of times that drug abuse is is to cope with the mental health issue. And we didn't have a good mechanism in place to try to help deal with that.

00;31;18;28 - 00;31;43;17
Sheriff Phillip Miller
You know, from a law enforcement standpoint, our capability for mental health assistance is if somebody is suicidal or homicidal, well, we can get them some help then. Otherwise, there's not much help out there. Once again, 100 Families came in and there was a resource that brought things together that brought the ability to, hey, this is how we contact your probation officer.

00;31;43;17 - 00;32;07;00
Sheriff Phillip Miller
Let's get things lined out there. Then this is how we contact Workforce Services to help you find a job. And this is how we contact a place to help you find a place to live. And so they started building their life back and getting getting a hold of that and becoming successful. And once again, that means they're successfully out of the cycle of criminal justice.

00;32;08;00 - 00;32;13;09
Charles Newsom
Paul spoke with Sheriff Higgins about going even further upstream than District Court.

00;32;14;00 - 00;32;19;21
Paul Chapman
I know while you were at the police department you were engaging in some preventative kind of work. Can we talk about that just a little?

00;32;20;04 - 00;32;49;22
Sheriff Eric Higgins
Yeah, you know what? We get involved when I was at Little Rock Police Department is try to engage in our our kids, involved in our youth. Because you see the cycle, you see the kids growing up and making poor decisions and getting involved in criminal activity and staying in those activities. You know, some people may think it's just kids making the choices, bad kids, but a lot of times it's kids looking at their circumstances at home and making choices.

00;32;49;22 - 00;33;07;26
Sheriff Eric Higgins
They think that this is what I have to do. I have to be involved in a gang because the gangs are my community, and I need to feel safe. And therefore I’m going to get involved in gang activity. Getting involved in selling drugs or what have you, because I want to help mom or grandma keep the lights on. I need to have food in the house.

00;33;08;08 - 00;33;28;27
Sheriff Eric Higgins
So, you know, the kids get involved. They're trying to meet some tangible needs that they have that we all have. You want to feel safe, you know, you want to have housing, you want to have food. And so kids get involved in those activities. So what we what we did was engage with a program called the OK program, where we work with our youth.

00;33;28;27 - 00;33;53;00
Sheriff Eric Higgins
We assign officers to actually be in the school working with the kids, individual kids. It was a school resource program. It is a program engaging the kids and they did home visits. They want to know what the environment the kids were in. If the kids got in trouble, they stayed engaged with the kids, monitoring their grades and encouraging them, giving them opportunities, taking them on college road trips, things like that.

00;33;53;00 - 00;33;56;25
Sheriff Eric Higgins
Letting them see some things beyond maybe what they were seeing in their in their neighborhood.

00;33;57;14 - 00;33;58;23
Paul Chapman
How did that work?

00;33;59;27 - 00;34;29;01
Sheriff Eric Higgins
It was great. You know, a lot of kids went to college. Their successful. As matter of fact, I've got two kids who were in that Little Rock OK program, they’re deputies here at the sheriff's office. So it's a good program. And that's why it's so important that you you engage the kids where they are and try to give them hope, give them a chance to do something else, see themselves doing something else, you know, not just telling people what not to do.

00;34;30;05 - 00;34;44;04
Sheriff Eric Higgins
It's showing them what they can do and then giving them the resources, the support and sometimes skill set with training so that they can maybe go into a field that they may be interested in.

00;34;45;16 - 00;34;51;02
Paul Chapman
Why would you say that law enforcement should even be involved in that level of activity.

00;34;52;28 - 00;34;53;16
Sheriff Eric Higgins
We’re...

00;34;54;10 - 00;35;21;13
Sheriff Eric Higgins
We are in this position, we’re hired or elected, the taxpayers are paying for safety, safety of our community. And if we are concerned about safety, we have to drill down and recognize how and why people get involved in criminal activity. And then how do you get them out of it? It's not just putting people in jail.

00;35;21;22 - 00;35;41;02
Sheriff Eric Higgins
We're going to do that. We're going to get dangerous people off the street. We're going to put people in jail, some people that need to go to jail for a long time. They're a danger to our community. But that's not everybody. And if all we're doing is arresting people and putting them in jail, that's all we are going to do.

00;35;41;02 - 00;36;03;02
Sheriff Eric Higgins
You know, when you go back and this is not something new, what I'm talking about, Sir Robert Peel's principles on policing, I think was like 1829, something like that. I don’t emember exact year. But one of his principles, he talks about the policing and he talks about, you know, how do you evaluate the effectiveness of a law enforcement agency? It's not by arrests.

00;36;04;07 - 00;36;22;21
Sheriff Eric Higgins
It’s the absence of crime. You know, no one feels safe in the community when all you show is a bunch of arrests. You know, if everybody's being arrested, there's a bunch of homicides, there's a bunch of robberies going on. And we're arresting people. We're we're we're arresting the bad people and putting them in jail. That doesn't make a person feel safe.

00;36;23;19 - 00;36;46;12
Sheriff Eric Higgins
What makes a person feel safe is that they can go somewhere, be with their family, or at an event and not be a victim of crime. And so we have to prevent the crime. But then you look at, I need to provide for my family. I don't... Do I have an opportunity to do something illegal or illegal to support my family?

00;36;47;04 - 00;37;10;09
Sheriff Eric Higgins
And people are caught in that situation. And if we can give them the resources, maybe they won't continue down that road. In a lot of times when you look at Pulaski County, in this area, in this state, there's a lot of areas that have a lot of resources. But we expect individuals to know where those resources are. And they may not know that.

00;37;11;02 - 00;37;32;16
Sheriff Eric Higgins
They don't know what opportunities they have. You may have a family that that’s struggling with a food need, but only know the church down the street on Wednesdays provides food and maybe not have any transportation go anywhere else, but to that church on Wednesday. Well, what about the rest of the week? How are they connect to those resources? And I think we have a lot of people in the community that want to help.

00;37;33;13 - 00;38;23;08
Sheriff Eric Higgins
They're concerned about safety. They're concerned about crime. They're concerned about the well-being of their neighbors. And I think if we can connect the resources and direct individuals to those resources or bring those resources to those individuals and educate them and help them, I think we can have a significant impact on crime because we're having an impact on a person's hope to succeed, to do something different.

00;38;23;25 - 00;38;40;06
Charles Newsom
Thank you for joining us for this episode. Join us next week for an indepth look at a very unique model that is changing lives by combining the district court and community resources in the same building. Only two episodes left in the season. Don't miss it.

00;38;41;05 - 00;39;06;04
Ed Lowry
Thanks to our guests. Sheriff Eric Higgins, Sheriff Phillip Miller, Chief Jamie Hammond, Colton Pace and Don Raney. And thanks to Arkansas Churches for Life for sponsoring. Musical credits include “The Simple Truth” by Dr. Delight, “Tangles” by Aaron Sprinkle and “Light The Way” by Ian Keloski. Music is licensed through soundstripe.com. Smart Justice is a work of Restore Hope.

00;39;06;17 - 00;39;28;29
Ed Lowry
Please consider helping us produce more work like this by becoming a sponsor at www.smartjustice.org. Thank you again.