Armenian News Network - Groong: Week In Review Podcast

Benyamin Poghosyan - SCO Summit, TRIPP Corridor, RU - AZ Rift, UK Ties | Ep 467, Aug 31, 2025

• Armenian News Network / Groong • Episode 467

Share episode

Groong Week in Review - August 31, 2025

In this Week in Review, we look at Armenia’s role at the SCO summit, where Pashinyan struck a new “strategic partnership” with China while also meeting Putin, raising questions about Yerevan’s shifting alignments. We examine the August 8 Washington documents on TRIPP, where words like “corridor” and “99-year lease” swirl despite Armenia’s denials, and ask what Azerbaijan’s demand for constitutional change really means. We cover rising tensions between Moscow and Baku after Aliyev called Russia an occupier and Zatulin warned against seeing Azerbaijan as a partner. And we discuss the UK’s push to raise relations with Armenia to a strategic level, even as London courts Baku and maintains loopholes in its arms embargo.

Topics:
  - SCO Summit in China
  - The UK in Armenia
  - TRIPP / Zangezur Corridor
  - Russian Azerbaijani Relations

Guest:  Benyamin Poghosyan

Hosts:
  - Hovik Manucharyan
  - Asbed Bedrossian

Episode 467 | Recorded: September 1, 2025

SHOW NOTES: https://podcasts.groong.org/467

VIDEO: https://youtu.be/kTh52542vtU



Subscribe and follow us everywhere you are: linktr.ee/groong

Asbed (00:00:06):

Hello, everyone,

Asbed (00:00:07):

and welcome to the Armenian News Network Groong Week in Review for August 31,

Asbed (00:00:10):

2025.

Asbed (00:00:11):

Today,

Asbed (00:00:13):

we're talking with Benyamin Poghosyan,

Asbed (00:00:14):

a senior fellow at APRI Armenia,

Asbed (00:00:17):

a Yerevan-based think tank.

Hovik (00:00:19):

We will go to Benyamin very shortly,

Hovik (00:00:21):

but I just want to remind you to please consider liking,

Hovik (00:00:26):

commenting and sharing this podcast because it helps us increase our reach.

Hovik (00:00:30):

And if you're feeling extra generous,

Hovik (00:00:31):

then go to podcasts.groong.org / donate and become a supporter of the only

Hovik (00:00:37):

independent English language podcast focusing on Armenia and its region,

Hovik (00:00:42):

producing regular quality content such as this show.

Hovik (00:00:46):

and help us rise above the noise that is being generated by various foreign-funded,

Hovik (00:00:53):

foreign-supported organizations that dominate the media today in Armenia.

Asbed (00:00:58):

Yeah.

Asbed (00:00:59):

Thank you for that.

Asbed (00:01:00):

And if giving financially is not in your thoughts today, that's okay.

Asbed (00:01:06):

SHARE our shows, LIKE our shows, and COMMENT on our shows, and that'll be a lot of help for us.

Asbed (00:01:13):

Thank you so much.

Asbed (00:01:15):

All right, on with the show.

Asbed (00:01:18):

Hello, Benyamin.

Asbed (00:01:19):

Welcome to the Groong podcast.

Benyamin (00:01:21):

Hello, AsAsbedpet.

Benyamin (00:01:22):

Hello, Hovik. It's always a pleasure to be with you.

Hovik (00:01:25):

Hello, hello, Benyamin.

Hovik (00:01:26):

So as we are coming fresh out of the Shanghai Cooperation Organization Summit in

Hovik (00:01:33):

Tianjin,

Hovik (00:01:34):

China,

Hovik (00:01:35):

let's talk about that because it is going on with a significant amount of fanfare.

Hovik (00:01:40):

From the perspective of multipolarity, it's viewed as a big thing.

Hovik (00:01:45):

And Larry Johnson...

Hovik (00:01:46):

argues that Western leaders still cling to the illusion of an unshakable U.S.

Hovik (00:01:51):

hegemony,

Hovik (00:01:53):

but the reality on display in Tianjin seems to be different,

Hovik (00:01:57):

which is China,

Hovik (00:01:58):

Russia,

Hovik (00:01:59):

and India shaking hands and presenting themselves as co-architects of a new system

Hovik (00:02:04):

that rejects Western veto power and external influence.

Hovik (00:02:09):

And Xi Jinping openly called for a new global security order.

Hovik (00:02:14):

framing the SCO as a model of international relations outside of Washington's reach.

Hovik (00:02:20):

Now, Pashinyan also attended the summit,

Hovik (00:02:22):

helping portray the image that even states tied to the West are compelled to engage

Hovik (00:02:28):

with the SCO, but we'll talk about that separately.

Hovik (00:02:30):

So before focusing on Pashinyan,

Hovik (00:02:32):

can you tell us about the larger picture and the global context of the summit as

Hovik (00:02:37):

you see it?

Hovik (00:02:38):

Thank you.

Benyamin (00:02:40):

Frankly speaking,

Benyamin (00:02:41):

I'm not sure we can say that Western leaders still believe that there is a unipolar

Benyamin (00:02:45):

world because

Benyamin (00:02:46):

Two or three years ago, Secretary Blinken clearly stated that the unipolar world is over.

Benyamin (00:02:51):

And I think a few months ago,

Benyamin (00:02:53):

new Secretary of State,

Benyamin (00:02:54):

Marco Rubio,

Benyamin (00:02:55):

stated that the unipolar world and US hegemony is over.

Benyamin (00:02:59):

So I think that at least part of the Western elites understand that we are in the

Benyamin (00:03:03):

interregnum period.

Benyamin (00:03:05):

What does it mean interregnum?

Benyamin (00:03:07):

As the old order ended, we do not have still a new order, so we are in between.

Benyamin (00:03:13):

But definitely we can call it post-unipolar world.

Benyamin (00:03:15):

We cannot call it multipolar-bipolar, but we are in post-unipolar world.

Benyamin (00:03:20):

Regarding Shanghai Cooperation Organization,

Benyamin (00:03:22):

okay,

Benyamin (00:03:24):

this is an organization which brings in China,

Benyamin (00:03:26):

I think, up to 25 leaders.

Benyamin (00:03:28):

China, Russia, India.

Benyamin (00:03:31):

And the SCO GDP per world share is reaching 30% and population is reaching 40-45%.

Benyamin (00:03:39):

So definitely we can say that this is a grouping of non-Western states.

Benyamin (00:03:44):

Yes, many states have a lot of problems between each other.

Benyamin (00:03:47):

Let's only mention India, Pakistan, and even India, China.

Benyamin (00:03:51):

still have problems, despite they are now trying to improve relations, but it's ups and downs.

Benyamin (00:03:55):

Improvement, tensions, improvement, tensions.

Benyamin (00:03:57):

So it's not like a monolith block,

Benyamin (00:04:00):

like for example, NATO,

Benyamin (00:04:01):

when more or less everything is under US control now.

Benyamin (00:04:04):

But still,

Benyamin (00:04:05):

it's a grouping of non-Western powers,

Benyamin (00:04:07):

and it sends a message that yes,

Benyamin (00:04:10):

at least in this case,

Benyamin (00:04:12):

Mr. Blinken and Mr.

Benyamin (00:04:13):

Rubio,

Benyamin (00:04:14):

they were and are right,

Benyamin (00:04:15):

that the unipolar world is ours,

Benyamin (00:04:17):

and we are in between.

Benyamin (00:04:19):

Let's see what order we will have.

Benyamin (00:04:21):

It could be bipolar, multipolar, no-polar, jungle, cows or whatever.

Benyamin (00:04:26):

So this is a key message of SCO.

Hovik (00:04:29):

So in Tianjin,

Hovik (00:04:31):

Pashinyan met Xi Jinping to announce a new strategic partnership with China,

Hovik (00:04:36):

signing on to projects covering trade rules,

Hovik (00:04:38):

connectivity,

Hovik (00:04:40):

and of course,

Hovik (00:04:41):

the Belt and Road Initiative.

Hovik (00:04:42):

Armenia was the last state in the South Caucasus to establish the strategic

Hovik (00:04:47):

partnership with China.

Hovik (00:04:48):

We note that with Georgia,

Hovik (00:04:49):

this partnership was established in 2023 and with Azerbaijan earlier this year in

Hovik (00:04:54):

April.

Hovik (00:04:55):

So C offered the prospect of also Armenia joining the Shanghai Cooperation Organization.

Hovik (00:05:03):

At the same time,

Hovik (00:05:04):

Pashinyan also met with Putin at this conference and they stressed active dialogue

Hovik (00:05:11):

as if trying to keep Moscow appeased.

Hovik (00:05:14):

The irony is sharp, of course, while Yerevan passes legislation to join the European Union.

Hovik (00:05:20):

And last week was spent, last week essentially was spent towards a China and Russia led bloc.

Hovik (00:05:27):

And that has raised the eyebrows of many observers.

Hovik (00:05:31):

So I want to ask, you know, Pashinyan keeps piling up strategic partnerships.

Hovik (00:05:36):

We know that Armenia has signed a strategic partnership with Iran,

Hovik (00:05:40):

Georgia, the US,

Hovik (00:05:41):

the UK,

Hovik (00:05:42):

which we'll talk about in the same week as now with China,

Hovik (00:05:47):

maybe even Pakistan next.

Hovik (00:05:49):

So what does the word strategic actually mean in these deals?

Hovik (00:05:54):

Are all strategic partnerships built the same?

Benyamin (00:05:59):

Okay, first of all, on Armenia-China relations.

Benyamin (00:06:02):

As far as I know, China offered to establish strategic partnership with Armenia back in 2024.

Benyamin (00:06:09):

At that time,

Benyamin (00:06:10):

Armenian government was hesitant,

Benyamin (00:06:12):

thinking that it may harm these US-Armenian relations.

Benyamin (00:06:16):

It was a period when we were negotiating the strategic partnership charter with the

Benyamin (00:06:19):

United States.

Benyamin (00:06:21):

And then when Trump came to power,

Benyamin (00:06:23):

initially in January,

Benyamin (00:06:24):

February, March,

Benyamin (00:06:25):

it seemed that establishing strategic partnership with China may even trigger

Benyamin (00:06:30):

harsher reaction from the United States.

Benyamin (00:06:33):

due to Trump's anti-China statement and et cetera.

Benyamin (00:06:37):

I think the key here was,

Benyamin (00:06:40):

it may sound a little bit strange,

Benyamin (00:06:41):

but the establishment of strategic partnership between US and Azerbaijan on August

Benyamin (00:06:46):

8,

Benyamin (00:06:47):

because as you mentioned,

Benyamin (00:06:48):

Azerbaijan established strategic partnership with China in 2024,

Benyamin (00:06:52):

and then in April 2025,

Benyamin (00:06:54):

Azerbaijan elevated its relations with China into comprehensive strategic

Benyamin (00:06:58):

partnership.

Benyamin (00:07:00):

And then all of a sudden, while

Benyamin (00:07:02):

Only in April 2025, Azerbaijan established comprehensive strategic partnership with China.

Benyamin (00:07:07):

The US agreed in August 2025, established strategic partnership with Azerbaijan.

Benyamin (00:07:13):

And I think this sends a clear message to Armenia that you simultaneously may have

Benyamin (00:07:17):

strategic partnership with China and establish strategic partnership with the

Benyamin (00:07:21):

United States.

Benyamin (00:07:22):

So all the fears that any strategic partnership with China,

Benyamin (00:07:26):

regardless what does it mean,

Benyamin (00:07:27):

even like symbolic,

Benyamin (00:07:28):

but still a strategic partnership may trigger a harsh reaction from Trump

Benyamin (00:07:32):

administration,

Benyamin (00:07:34):

at least in Azerbaijan case,

Benyamin (00:07:36):

we see that it didn't happen.

Benyamin (00:07:39):

So I think after that, Armenia understand that, okay, if Azerbaijan may afford

Benyamin (00:07:43):

to establish strategic partnership with the United States having comprehensive

Benyamin (00:07:47):

strategic partnership with China,

Benyamin (00:07:49):

then Armenia having strategic partnership with the United States may establish

Benyamin (00:07:53):

strategic partnership with China.

Benyamin (00:07:55):

If you ask me what does it mean on the ground or in reality, I think we have to wait and see.

Benyamin (00:08:01):

The key for Chinese economic relations.

Benyamin (00:08:04):

As of now, Armenia has almost no Chinese

Benyamin (00:08:07):

in investments Georgia has some investments through Hualing group and Azerbaijan

Hovik (00:08:12):

have some Chinese investments yeah and in fact uh if i could mention i think the

Hovik (00:08:17):

Chinese investment in Georgia is about $100 million i will say that according to my

Benyamin (00:08:20):

knowledge Chinese investment in Georgia may reach up to 1 billion because it's real

Benyamin (00:08:24):

estate and also this Hualing group has some shares in potty free trade zone so it

Benyamin (00:08:29):

could be up to $1 billion that's similar to Azerbaijan i guess right yeah yeah and

Benyamin (00:08:34):

china provided through

Benyamin (00:08:36):

Asian investments banks,

Benyamin (00:08:38):

this AIIB bank,

Benyamin (00:08:39):

China provided up to $1 billion loans to Azerbaijan for TANAP construction and

Benyamin (00:08:44):

overall Southern Gas Corridor construction.

Benyamin (00:08:46):

So we have to wait and see.

Benyamin (00:08:48):

If we will have some interesting economic projects in Armenia,

Benyamin (00:08:52):

it means that this strategic partnership will get something.

Benyamin (00:08:54):

Otherwise,

Benyamin (00:08:55):

I may assume that China has strategic partnership with probably more than 100

Benyamin (00:08:59):

countries,

Benyamin (00:09:00):

and some is just two or three pages of paper.

Benyamin (00:09:05):

My understanding is that,

Benyamin (00:09:06):

for example,

Benyamin (00:09:07):

China will be interested to take part in the construction of the next nuclear power

Benyamin (00:09:13):

plant.

Benyamin (00:09:14):

We all know that the current nuclear power plant will be closed in 2036.

Benyamin (00:09:18):

We have 11 years,

Benyamin (00:09:20):

and now discussions are underway with the United States,

Benyamin (00:09:23):

and also Russians are telling that discussions are underway with Russia.

Benyamin (00:09:26):

And both the US and Russia are offering

Benyamin (00:09:29):

either big nuclear power plants or the so-called small modular nuclear power plants.

Benyamin (00:09:34):

For example, one of the areas when you can bring Chinese investments and also make Armenia a

Benyamin (00:09:39):

little bit more interesting for China is this investment in nuclear technology,

Benyamin (00:09:44):

because China is now one of the leading countries in the world regarding nuclear

Benyamin (00:09:48):

technologies. I'm telling this as an example.

Benyamin (00:09:52):

If you want to really have strategic partnership with China and make China think

Benyamin (00:09:57):

about Armenia,

Benyamin (00:09:58):

not just one of the very tiny small countries somewhere in the world,

Benyamin (00:10:02):

then you should offer some interesting suggestions to China regarding investments.

Benyamin (00:10:08):

Nuclear technologies could be one of them.

Benyamin (00:10:10):

For example, renewable energies, another.

Benyamin (00:10:12):

So we have to wait and see.

Benyamin (00:10:14):

If there is no significant investment, then this will be just another box ticking exercise.

Hovik (00:10:19):

So the strategic partnership,

Hovik (00:10:21):

let's say,

Hovik (00:10:22):

for example, between Azerbaijan and Georgia has a military and security component.

Hovik (00:10:27):

Do any of the strategic partnerships that Armenia has with Iran,

Hovik (00:10:31):

Georgia,

Hovik (00:10:32):

U.S., China,

Hovik (00:10:33):

U.K.,

Hovik (00:10:35):

do any of these strategic partnership agreements have a military or a security

Hovik (00:10:39):

component?

Benyamin (00:10:41):

First, I would like to clarify that still we do not have strategic partnership with Iran.

Benyamin (00:10:46):

The agreement on strategic partnership is being negotiated and it now is being negotiated.

Benyamin (00:10:53):

There were some rumors or hopes that it may be signed during President Pezeshkian's

Benyamin (00:10:57):

visit to Armenia,

Benyamin (00:10:58):

but it did not happen,

Benyamin (00:10:59):

maybe because of Washington summit in August 2025.

Benyamin (00:11:04):

But still,

Benyamin (00:11:05):

discussions are underway and maybe Armenia will sign strategic partnership

Benyamin (00:11:10):

agreement with Iran

Benyamin (00:11:12):

by the end of 2025 or early 2026.

Benyamin (00:11:14):

Let's see.

Benyamin (00:11:15):

Regarding defense cooperation,

Benyamin (00:11:17):

frankly speaking, you do not need strategic partnership to have defense cooperation.

Benyamin (00:11:20):

Armenia has no strategic partnership agreement with India.

Benyamin (00:11:23):

Zero.

Benyamin (00:11:24):

There is no.

Benyamin (00:11:25):

But India is the biggest weapons supplier to Armenia,

Benyamin (00:11:28):

and according to different public sources,

Benyamin (00:11:31):

it's more than $1 billion.

Benyamin (00:11:32):

Armenia still has no strategic partnership with France.

Benyamin (00:11:36):

And we signed up to half billion euros of defense cooperation agreements with France.

Benyamin (00:11:41):

What I would like to say is that you may have no strategic partnership,

Benyamin (00:11:44):

but you may buy billions of dollars of weapons and you may have strategic

Benyamin (00:11:48):

partnership and have zero defense cooperation.

Benyamin (00:11:53):

So I don't see any direct connections.

Benyamin (00:11:55):

Regarding the strategic partnership,

Benyamin (00:11:57):

as you mentioned,

Benyamin (00:11:58):

we established strategic partnership with UK very recently,

Benyamin (00:12:01):

with Netherlands a few months ago,

Benyamin (00:12:03):

with United States in January 2025,

Benyamin (00:12:05):

with China just a few days ago.

Benyamin (00:12:10):

Does it mean that we will have defense cooperation with all of them?

Benyamin (00:12:13):

I don't know, but it's not necessary.

Benyamin (00:12:15):

Again, you may have no strategic partnership and have defense cooperation and vice versa.

Asbed (00:12:20):

Benyamin, I'm still struggling with the word strategic.

Asbed (00:12:23):

I've always put the connotation on the word strategic to have something to do with

Asbed (00:12:28):

augmenting your national security maybe.

Asbed (00:12:31):

Are these agreements that are being signed actually doing that for Armenia?

Asbed (00:12:35):

If not defense,

Asbed (00:12:36):

let's try to get out of defense and hardware,

Asbed (00:12:38):

but let's just talk about are they actually increasing Armenia's national security?

Benyamin (00:12:43):

In some sort, yes, but not in a way when we think.

Benyamin (00:12:46):

I mean, these partnerships are not agreements about alliances.

Benyamin (00:12:50):

So if tomorrow, hopefully not,

Benyamin (00:12:53):

any country will attack Armenia,

Benyamin (00:12:55):

neither the Netherlands nor the UK nor China has no responsibilities and no duties

Benyamin (00:13:00):

to support Armenia,

Benyamin (00:13:01):

to help Armenia,

Benyamin (00:13:02):

to do anything.

Benyamin (00:13:03):

So I would say that these are just diversifying Armenian foreign policy,

Benyamin (00:13:07):

diversifying our diplomatic relations,

Benyamin (00:13:09):

maybe adding a little bit diplomatic deterrence,

Benyamin (00:13:12):

but to say that they significantly boost Armenia's national security,

Benyamin (00:13:16):

I'm not in a position to argue.

Benyamin (00:13:17):

So it's not a zero, but also it's not a significant boost.

Hovik (00:13:20):

Benyamin,

Hovik (00:13:21):

you know, Pashinyan met with Xi Jinping,

Hovik (00:13:24):

Putin,

Hovik (00:13:25):

Narendra Modi,

Hovik (00:13:26):

of course Erdogan and Aliyev,

Hovik (00:13:28):

and we talked about Armenia's establishment of diplomatic relations with Pakistan

Hovik (00:13:35):

as well.

Hovik (00:13:36):

Is there logic to Pashinyan's diplomacy right now?

Hovik (00:13:42):

Is this an example of the so-called balanced and balancing policy or

Hovik (00:13:46):

is it basically meet everyone you can get as many photo ops you can and see what

Hovik (00:13:51):

happens how would you explain this diplomacy okay first of all i'm not sure what

Benyamin (00:13:57):

does it mean balanced and balancing foreign policy i mean from academic or whatever

Benyamin (00:14:01):

point of view but if you

Benyamin (00:14:03):

go to the real life,

Benyamin (00:14:04):

I think what the Armenian government is doing,

Benyamin (00:14:07):

they are trying to send signals to different centers of power trying to appease

Benyamin (00:14:12):

both of them.

Benyamin (00:14:13):

For example, in March 2025,

Benyamin (00:14:14):

we adopted a law about starting of the EU integration or membership process.

Benyamin (00:14:20):

Of course, this was an imitation.

Benyamin (00:14:22):

But still,

Benyamin (00:14:23):

the idea was somehow to send positive signals and create positive momentum in the

Benyamin (00:14:29):

European Union and maybe in the United States towards Armenia.

Benyamin (00:14:32):

Simultaneously,

Benyamin (00:14:33):

then we officially applied to become a full member of the Shanghai Cooperation

Benyamin (00:14:39):

Organization,

Benyamin (00:14:40):

currently we are a dialogue of partner.

Benyamin (00:14:41):

And this was an effort to send some signals and create some positive attitude

Benyamin (00:14:47):

toward Armenia in China and maybe in Russia or in Global South.

Benyamin (00:14:51):

So as of now,

Benyamin (00:14:52):

I think government's policy,

Benyamin (00:14:54):

the number one issue is to prevent any hostilities,

Benyamin (00:14:57):

at least in a short term perspective.

Benyamin (00:14:59):

be very frank at least until 2026 June parliamentary elections because the lack of

Benyamin (00:15:05):

hostilities or absence of hostilities can be interpreted which is government is

Benyamin (00:15:09):

doing as de facto peace and use this to try to get votes of population telling that

Benyamin (00:15:15):

I promised you and I brought you the real peace.

Benyamin (00:15:18):

So the key driver behind Armenian foreign policy as of now is this.

Benyamin (00:15:23):

So do everything to

Benyamin (00:15:25):

reduce the risk of escalation by Azerbaijan and simultaneously to reduce the risk

Benyamin (00:15:31):

of any major power hostile action against Armenia and against Armenian government

Benyamin (00:15:35):

at least.

Benyamin (00:15:36):

Before elections Armenia is not interested and I believe government is not

Benyamin (00:15:40):

interested to have a situation when any major power which has a potential to

Benyamin (00:15:46):

interfere into the domestic affairs of Armenia through different means

Benyamin (00:15:50):

to give them any base for some hostile action against current government.

Benyamin (00:15:54):

So they are trying to be good with everyone, at least until June 2026.

Benyamin (00:15:57):

I mean, that's a really short timeline.

Benyamin (00:16:02):

So can we say that? Yeah,

Benyamin (00:16:03):

this is a really short timeline,

Benyamin (00:16:04):

but frankly speaking,

Benyamin (00:16:05):

given what crazy world we live,

Benyamin (00:16:07):

when every moment we may have war or we are having the wars,

Benyamin (00:16:10):

maybe nine months is a short,

Benyamin (00:16:13):

but it's not like one second.

Benyamin (00:16:15):

After June 2026,

Benyamin (00:16:16):

if current government and the ruling party secure the victory,

Benyamin (00:16:20):

then we have to see.

Benyamin (00:16:22):

Because for the next five-year period,

Benyamin (00:16:24):

I think it will be extremely complicated to somehow appease or make happy everyone.

Benyamin (00:16:29):

Let's make happy Europeans, Americans, Chinese, Russians, Iranians.

Benyamin (00:16:34):

But even current government is not doing it very skillfully because,

Benyamin (00:16:38):

for example, on a Washington summit,

Benyamin (00:16:40):

We all understand that Russia and Iran cannot be happy if really Americans will

Benyamin (00:16:45):

appear in Syunik.

Benyamin (00:16:46):

Regardless,

Benyamin (00:16:47):

it will be a private company,

Benyamin (00:16:49):

it will be a joint Armenian-US company,

Benyamin (00:16:51):

it will be a company registered in Armenia,

Benyamin (00:16:53):

it will be a company within full Armenian jurisdiction,

Benyamin (00:16:56):

Russia and Iran could not be happy.

Benyamin (00:16:58):

So you cannot make everyone happy, but still the government is trying.

Hovik (00:17:02):

To me, I can't resist,

Hovik (00:17:03):

but this sounds like someone who is on the verge of bankruptcy saying,

Hovik (00:17:08):

okay, I'm going to get one more credit card just so that I can delay my bankruptcy by one

Hovik (00:17:12):

year, and then we'll figure out what happens in 2026.

Hovik (00:17:14):

But is the...

Hovik (00:17:17):

But in reality,

Hovik (00:17:18):

coming back to the Shanghai Cooperation Organization,

Hovik (00:17:21):

is the scope direction really interesting for Armenia?

Hovik (00:17:26):

What perspective,

Hovik (00:17:28):

what advantages does it offer to Armenia if Armenia really pursues this

Hovik (00:17:33):

integration?

Benyamin (00:17:35):

Look, let's look into the geography.

Benyamin (00:17:37):

Based simply on geography,

Benyamin (00:17:39):

for me it's clear that South Caucasus cannot be fully part of the Western bloc in

Benyamin (00:17:45):

this post-unipolar world.

Benyamin (00:17:46):

or cannot be fully part of the Western Pole.

Benyamin (00:17:50):

Let's call the Western Pole led by US.

Benyamin (00:17:52):

US plus EU led by United States.

Benyamin (00:17:54):

South Caucasus cannot be fully part of the Western Pole because of geography,

Benyamin (00:18:00):

because we have Russia and Iran,

Benyamin (00:18:02):

and they are not going to be part of Western Pole,

Benyamin (00:18:04):

and we have Turkey,

Benyamin (00:18:05):

while it's a part of Western Pole through its membership to NATO,

Benyamin (00:18:08):

but still also trying to balancing.

Benyamin (00:18:11):

While if you look into the non-Western Pole and SCO,

Benyamin (00:18:14):

which Russia is a member,

Benyamin (00:18:16):

India is a member,

Benyamin (00:18:17):

Iran is a member, China is a member,

Benyamin (00:18:19):

etc., it's clear that this non-Western pole will have significant influence in the South

Benyamin (00:18:24):

Caucasus, at least through Russia and Iran.

Benyamin (00:18:26):

So, strategically,

Benyamin (00:18:28):

This is my understanding.

Benyamin (00:18:30):

South Caucasus has two options.

Benyamin (00:18:31):

Either we are going to be some sort of battleground or the fault line between

Benyamin (00:18:36):

different poles in this post-unipolar world.

Benyamin (00:18:39):

And this is very bad because we will be a place when the different poles are trying

Benyamin (00:18:44):

to solve the issues.

Benyamin (00:18:46):

Or South Caucasus can be some sort of bridge.

Benyamin (00:18:48):

economic bridge,

Benyamin (00:18:49):

political bridge,

Benyamin (00:18:51):

and also the place of strategic convenience,

Benyamin (00:18:53):

like bringing officials,

Benyamin (00:18:55):

experts,

Benyamin (00:18:57):

etc. from different poles.

Benyamin (00:19:00):

So from this perspective,

Benyamin (00:19:02):

you have to develop relations with the SCO because even if South Caucasus will be

Benyamin (00:19:06):

this bridge state,

Benyamin (00:19:09):

let's call it bridge area,

Benyamin (00:19:11):

still you will have significant influence of non-Western powers.

Benyamin (00:19:14):

And as of now,

Benyamin (00:19:15):

the Shanghai Cooperation Organization is one of the most powerful blocks of this

Benyamin (00:19:20):

non-Western world.

Benyamin (00:19:21):

So you have to deal with non-Western world because non-Western world,

Benyamin (00:19:25):

it's having and will have significant influence in the South Caucasus.

Asbed (00:19:30):

Benyamin,

Asbed (00:19:31):

as was mentioned earlier,

Asbed (00:19:33):

on the sidelines of the Shanghai Cooperation Organization Summit,

Asbed (00:19:38):

Armenia and Pakistan established diplomatic relations.

Asbed (00:19:41):

This is a move that surprised many people,

Asbed (00:19:43):

given Islamabad's long record of rabid and unconditional support for Turkey and

Asbed (00:19:47):

Azerbaijan,

Asbed (00:19:49):

including during the 2020 and 2023 wars and the ethnic cleansing of Artsakh.

Asbed (00:19:54):

In earlier shows,

Asbed (00:19:55):

we have actually discussed how Pakistan was one of the few countries,

Asbed (00:19:59):

maybe the only country alongside Turkey to deny the very existence of Armenia.

Asbed (00:20:03):

It didn't want to recognize Armenia's independence and didn't want to establish

Asbed (00:20:07):

diplomatic ties with it.

Hovik (00:20:09):

I think even Turkey recognized Armenia's independence.

Asbed (00:20:13):

That's right. Turkey was maybe the first country that recognized the independence.

Asbed (00:20:17):

Absolutely.

Asbed (00:20:18):

So what's the significance here of establishing diplomatic relations with Pakistan?

Asbed (00:20:22):

Does this mean that Aliyev has maybe begun to drop his demands of isolating Armenia

Asbed (00:20:28):

from his allies,

Asbed (00:20:30):

Turkey and Pakistan?

Benyamin (00:20:31):

First of all,

Benyamin (00:20:32):

Pakistan was supporting Azerbaijan mostly because of so-called occupation of

Benyamin (00:20:36):

Nagorno-Karabakh.

Benyamin (00:20:38):

On the current Armenian government,

Benyamin (00:20:39):

when the government is telling that there is no Nagorno-Karabakh,

Benyamin (00:20:42):

Nagorno-Karabakh is Azerbaijan,

Benyamin (00:20:45):

and Armenians did mistake by starting the Karabakh movement,

Benyamin (00:20:48):

and government will not allow the continuation of Karabakh movement in Armenia,

Benyamin (00:20:52):

then the primary reason of,

Benyamin (00:20:54):

let's say, like animosity towards Armenia from Pakistani sides,

Benyamin (00:20:58):

the primary reason has evaporated.

Benyamin (00:21:01):

But of course, it does not mean that Azerbaijan drops any demand.

Benyamin (00:21:04):

If under the demands, we understand the demand for Zangezur Corridor,

Benyamin (00:21:07):

demand for the establishment of Western Azerbaijan,

Benyamin (00:21:09):

etc.

Benyamin (00:21:10):

No, Azerbaijan will continue to do that.

Benyamin (00:21:12):

And by the way,

Benyamin (00:21:13):

during today's speech,

Benyamin (00:21:16):

during this SCO plus summit,

Benyamin (00:21:18):

President Aliyev again spoke about Zangezur Corridor.

Benyamin (00:21:21):

He spoke about the Washington summit and he said that he is sure that the Zangezur

Benyamin (00:21:24):

corridor will be beneficial not only for Azerbaijan but also for the entire region.

Benyamin (00:21:28):

Like, he clearly stated that from his perspective,

Benyamin (00:21:31):

TRIPP is the Zangezur corridor,

Benyamin (00:21:33):

or TRIPP is just another name for Zangezur corridor.

Benyamin (00:21:35):

Of course,

Benyamin (00:21:36):

Prime Minister Pashinyan countered him in his speech,

Benyamin (00:21:39):

telling that we agreed to clear terminology or terms in Washington.

Benyamin (00:21:44):

And the term which is used by President Aliyev is not in line with our

Benyamin (00:21:47):

understanding,

Benyamin (00:21:48):

but this is a completely different issue,

Benyamin (00:21:50):

which shows that how shaky is Washington Declaration itself and how Armenian and

Benyamin (00:21:55):

Azerbaijan will misinterpret or interpret differently.

Asbed (00:21:58):

So essentially Aliyev mocked Pashinyan publicly at the SCO.

Benyamin (00:22:03):

So no drop of any demands by Azerbaijan.

Benyamin (00:22:07):

But regarding why this happened, I don't exclude that somehow Turkey was mediating this.

Benyamin (00:22:14):

Because if you look,

Benyamin (00:22:15):

if Armenia is trying to normalize relations with Azerbaijan and Turkey,

Benyamin (00:22:19):

then from Turkish perspective,

Benyamin (00:22:20):

I think Turkey should do everything to bring Armenia closer to its lies.

Benyamin (00:22:24):

And we all know that Turkey, Pakistan and Azerbaijan are strategic lies.

Benyamin (00:22:27):

They are having military drills.

Benyamin (00:22:29):

The leaders met in Berdzor in May 2025.

Benyamin (00:22:32):

I'm leaders of three countries.

Benyamin (00:22:35):

So from Turkish perspective, it's clear.

Benyamin (00:22:37):

Like, slowly but pull Armenia towards the ring of Turkish alliances or multilateral groupings.

Benyamin (00:22:45):

So from this perspective,

Benyamin (00:22:47):

I think it could be quite logical if this was facilitated by Turkey or at least

Benyamin (00:22:52):

initial message was sent by Turkey,

Benyamin (00:22:54):

both to Armenia and Pakistan that,

Benyamin (00:22:55):

okay,

Benyamin (00:22:56):

let's make a first step and let's establish diplomatic relations.

Benyamin (00:22:59):

So mostly I view this step within this Turkish policy of pulling Armenia closer to

Benyamin (00:23:05):

the mini groupings where Turkey has a leading role.

Asbed (00:23:08):

So do you think that this establishment of relations with Pakistan possibly

Asbed (00:23:12):

portends the establishment of relations with Turkey?

Benyamin (00:23:17):

Look, establishment of relations with Turkey is a very complicated issue.

Benyamin (00:23:20):

From one point of view,

Benyamin (00:23:21):

Turkey is interested to have relations with Armenia,

Benyamin (00:23:23):

which will help Turkey to have more influence in South Caucasus and potentially

Benyamin (00:23:27):

even replace Russia as a primary player in the South Caucasus.

Benyamin (00:23:31):

But also Turkish policy in the South Caucasus is based on Azerbaijan's first

Benyamin (00:23:36):

strategy due to different reasons,

Benyamin (00:23:38):

economic connections,

Benyamin (00:23:39):

political connections,

Benyamin (00:23:40):

business connections,

Benyamin (00:23:41):

etc.

Benyamin (00:23:42):

My understanding is that Turkey...

Benyamin (00:23:46):

will wait until the signature of peace agreement between Azerbaijan and Armenia,

Benyamin (00:23:50):

but because I have doubt that this agreement is ever going to be signed,

Benyamin (00:23:54):

because you know there is a precondition of constitutional change,

Benyamin (00:23:56):

there could be other preconditions,

Benyamin (00:23:58):

so it's like a vague.

Benyamin (00:23:59):

So I'm not in a position to say that we are very close to the opening of

Benyamin (00:24:03):

Armenia-Turkey border,

Benyamin (00:24:04):

so I would not connect Armenia-Pakistan normalization with potential opening of

Benyamin (00:24:08):

Armenia-Turkey border.

Asbed (00:24:09):

Okay, thank you.

Asbed (00:24:11):

Well, speaking about strategic partnerships here,

Asbed (00:24:13):

I wanna move to the other side of the planet and the UK's Europe minister,

Asbed (00:24:19):

Stephen Doughty visited Yerevan last week,

Asbed (00:24:21):

meeting Pashinyan,

Asbed (00:24:22):

Deputy Foreign Minister Kostanyan,

Asbed (00:24:24):

and also the NSC chair,

Asbed (00:24:26):

Grigoryan, Armen Grigoryan,

Asbed (00:24:27):

as well as visiting the Armenian Genocide Memorial.

Asbed (00:24:30):

So like a full monte of diplomatic visits in Yerevan.

Asbed (00:24:34):

He did this right after he was in Baku and met with Aliyev also.

Asbed (00:24:39):

London and Yerevan agreed to raise ties to a strategic level with plans to have

Asbed (00:24:45):

resident defense attaches with each other,

Asbed (00:24:48):

cyber and hybrid threat cooperation,

Asbed (00:24:50):

and support for reforms and sovereignty.

Asbed (00:24:54):

In Baku,

Asbed (00:24:55):

Aliyev and Bayramov hailed 30 years of cooperation,

Asbed (00:24:58):

BP pipelines,

Asbed (00:24:59):

and growing energy ties.

Asbed (00:25:01):

In Armenia,

Asbed (00:25:02):

the focus was more on briefing each other on agreements,

Asbed (00:25:05):

especially the agreements in Washington.

Asbed (00:25:08):

Can you talk a little bit about what the interests of the UK are in Armenia and the

Asbed (00:25:13):

wider South Caucasus and how are they affected by the Trump or Zangezur corridors?

Asbed (00:25:19):

I shouldn't say corridors.

Asbed (00:25:21):

I should just say corridor.

Asbed (00:25:22):

It's one thing.

Asbed (00:25:23):

Whether you talk about TRIPP or Trump route or the Zangezur corridor,

Asbed (00:25:26):

it's different brands for the same route.

Benyamin (00:25:29):

I think probably the primary interest of the UK to weaken as much as possible Russia's position.

Benyamin (00:25:35):

And I think even this multi-billion dollar investment in Azerbaijan was a way to

Benyamin (00:25:40):

increase Azerbaijani state capacities and all these energy flows from Azerbaijan

Benyamin (00:25:46):

via Georgia to Turkey in Europe and which provide Azerbaijan with a lot of money

Benyamin (00:25:50):

also this helped Azerbaijan become more or less independent country.

Benyamin (00:25:54):

So primary goal is to weaken Russia's position.

Benyamin (00:25:57):

And I think UK understands that if TRIPP is going to be implemented and if Americans

Benyamin (00:26:02):

will appear in Syunik,

Benyamin (00:26:04):

regardless in what capacity,

Benyamin (00:26:05):

private company like Armenian American Consortium registered in Armenia in whatever

Benyamin (00:26:11):

capacity is,

Benyamin (00:26:12):

this will be another step towards weakening Russia's position in the South

Benyamin (00:26:16):

Caucasus.

Benyamin (00:26:17):

So this is their primary goal.

Benyamin (00:26:20):

Plus,

Benyamin (00:26:21):

I don't exclude that they are interested in Azerbaijan-Turkey transit via Armenia,

Benyamin (00:26:27):

I mean this Azerbaijan-Syunik-Nakhijevan-Turkey connection,

Benyamin (00:26:32):

and you know that Turkey started the construction of Kars-Nakhijevan Railway,

Benyamin (00:26:36):

which probably will be finished somewhere in 2028-2029,

Benyamin (00:26:40):

because maybe they have some concerns that transit via Georgia may become more and

Benyamin (00:26:45):

more complex,

Benyamin (00:26:46):

due to the deteriorating relations between Georgia and the West or potential

Benyamin (00:26:51):

growing Russian influence in Georgia.

Benyamin (00:26:53):

So from their perspective,

Benyamin (00:26:54):

okay, let's weaken Russia's position in the South Caucasus,

Benyamin (00:26:57):

but also let's have the second transit route,

Benyamin (00:27:00):

which if things with Georgia will go to the complete wrong direction,

Benyamin (00:27:05):

then maybe they believe that they can like reroute the main transit between

Benyamin (00:27:10):

Azerbaijan and Turkey in Central Asia and Turkey via Armenia.

Benyamin (00:27:14):

I see these two primary interests of the UK in the South Caucasus.

Asbed (00:27:17):

Benyamin, in July,

Asbed (00:27:18):

Doty signed off on a revision of the UK ban on selling weapons to Armenia and

Asbed (00:27:22):

Azerbaijan.

Asbed (00:27:23):

Now,

Asbed (00:27:24):

instead of weapons that could be used in Nagorno-Karabakh,

Asbed (00:27:27):

and now that Nagorno-Karabakh is not a hot war or an issue,

Asbed (00:27:32):

I guess that has changed.

Asbed (00:27:34):

Does this mean that Britain can now sell weapons to Azerbaijan?

Asbed (00:27:37):

And who would these weapons be aimed at if,

Asbed (00:27:40):

theoretically,

Asbed (00:27:41):

they're not going to be aimed at Armenians?

Benyamin (00:27:43):

Okay, my understanding is, theoretically, even Armenia can buy weapons from UK.

Benyamin (00:27:48):

So now, like, there is no at least legal obstacles for Armenia to buy weapons from UK,

Benyamin (00:27:52):

because,

Benyamin (00:27:53):

like, from UK perspective,

Benyamin (00:27:54):

conflict is over,

Benyamin (00:27:55):

so it's a no-conflict zone,

Benyamin (00:27:56):

so UK can sell weapons both to Azerbaijan and Armenia.

Benyamin (00:28:00):

Okay,

Benyamin (00:28:01):

look, to be very frank,

Benyamin (00:28:02):

Azerbaijan is pushing narratives that I need weapons potentially to resist Russia

Benyamin (00:28:07):

or to resist Iran.

Benyamin (00:28:09):

This is Azerbaijani narrative.

Benyamin (00:28:11):

But I think no serious person can believe that Azerbaijan really needs weapons to

Benyamin (00:28:16):

resist Iran,

Benyamin (00:28:17):

especially Russia, because it's clear that even if you will supply Azerbaijan with significant

Benyamin (00:28:21):

weapons, Russia is much,

Benyamin (00:28:22):

much stronger.

Benyamin (00:28:23):

So I have a feeling that this is something like a cover-up operation.

Benyamin (00:28:28):

You are selling weapons to Azerbaijan,

Benyamin (00:28:30):

telling that,

Benyamin (00:28:31):

oh, this will be used or potentially can be used to protect or defend Azerbaijan

Benyamin (00:28:35):

against malign activities of Russia and Iran.

Benyamin (00:28:38):

But you understand that still Azerbaijan demands the corridor, Western Azerbaijan and etc.,

Benyamin (00:28:44):

and Azerbaijan uses strength of force to compel Armenia to do things A,

Benyamin (00:28:48):

B, C.

Benyamin (00:28:49):

So by selling weapons to Azerbaijan,

Benyamin (00:28:51):

you're just making Azerbaijan more capable to force Armenia to make additional

Benyamin (00:28:54):

concessions,

Benyamin (00:28:55):

while covering it up with some nice words which hear very nicely to Western ears.

Benyamin (00:29:01):

Oh, let's help Azerbaijan, the poor Azerbaijan, bad Russia, bad Iran, etc.

Benyamin (00:29:05):

For me, this is some sort of cover-up operation, frankly speaking.

Hovik (00:29:09):

You previously mentioned the so-called Trump route, which we know is only east-west, right?

Hovik (00:29:18):

Is the UK interested in the wider network of corridors that Armenia has in the

Hovik (00:29:26):

offer,

Hovik (00:29:27):

such as the,

Hovik (00:29:28):

I guess, Crossroads of Peace?

Hovik (00:29:30):

How is that coming along?

Hovik (00:29:31):

And I haven't heard anything too much about Crossroads of Peace after this August 8th signing.

Benyamin (00:29:38):

Okay, my understanding is that for the UK and probably also for the US,

Benyamin (00:29:42):

but we are speaking about UK,

Benyamin (00:29:43):

the key goal is this east-west connection,

Benyamin (00:29:46):

like Azerbaijan,

Benyamin (00:29:47):

Syunik,

Benyamin (00:29:48):

Nakhijevan, Turkey.

Benyamin (00:29:49):

Okay, if Azerbaijan will allow Armenia to reach Russia via mainland Azerbaijan or to

Benyamin (00:29:54):

reach Iran via Nakhijevan,

Benyamin (00:29:55):

probably UK will not declare war against Azerbaijan.

Benyamin (00:29:58):

But I don't believe that UK will force Azerbaijan to...

Benyamin (00:30:02):

open its borders with Armenia via Nakhijevan or via mainland Azerbaijan.

Benyamin (00:30:06):

So from UK perspective, okay, if all the communications are restored, UK is okay.

Benyamin (00:30:11):

But if even only one route is opened, connecting Azerbaijan with Turkey, UK is fine also.

Benyamin (00:30:17):

So I am not sure that they will put too much effort to force Azerbaijan

Benyamin (00:30:22):

to allow Armenia to use Nakhijevan territory or mainland Azerbaijan territory.

Benyamin (00:30:26):

And it's clear that Azerbaijan has no intention to allow Armenia to use Nakhijevan

Benyamin (00:30:31):

to reach Iran or use Azerbaijan to reach Russia as an alternative to the Georgian

Benyamin (00:30:35):

route.

Benyamin (00:30:36):

So if no one is putting pressure on Azerbaijan, simply Azerbaijan will not do that.

Benyamin (00:30:40):

And I don't think that UK will be the one who will put pressure on Azerbaijan.

Hovik (00:30:44):

All right, let's move on, Benyamin.

Hovik (00:30:45):

So this week, Pashinyan finally published the August 8 Washington memoranda.

Hovik (00:30:52):

They were not publishing it for weeks, leading to wide-scale speculation about the contents.

Hovik (00:31:00):

Now, you know, surprisingly or unsurprisingly, once they were published, they remained vague.

Hovik (00:31:07):

Like there are three MOUs,

Hovik (00:31:08):

one on border security,

Hovik (00:31:10):

one on semiconductors and the other one on energy.

Hovik (00:31:13):

It's full of talk about capacity building and cooperation.

Hovik (00:31:16):

But importantly,

Hovik (00:31:18):

there is no mention of this so-called 99 year lease or even anything about the

Hovik (00:31:22):

amount of years.

Hovik (00:31:23):

The only thing is mentioned is like, I think, a three year cycle for renewal.

Hovik (00:31:28):

And even the word corridor is absent,

Hovik (00:31:30):

but Trump and Tom Barak openly use those terms in the context of the Trump route.

Hovik (00:31:38):

And Pashinyan,

Hovik (00:31:39):

meanwhile, continues to insist that Armenia retains full sovereignty and this was agreed upon.

Hovik (00:31:45):

Meanwhile, Aliyev claims his demands have been met,

Hovik (00:31:48):

with the exception for the change of the constitution.

Hovik (00:31:52):

Now, to us, the problem is clear.

Hovik (00:31:54):

Either these documents say nothing about the substance of what was agreed upon or

Hovik (00:31:59):

what was promised and understood are very different from what's on paper.

Hovik (00:32:04):

So we will talk about that.

Hovik (00:32:05):

But also, I want to mention that... Can I interject?

Asbed (00:32:07):

You said, which is the constitution...

Asbed (00:32:10):

I just want to say the preconditions,

Asbed (00:32:12):

because we're not even sure exactly what all the preconditions are.

Asbed (00:32:16):

There are still issues of border.

Asbed (00:32:18):

That's right.

Asbed (00:32:19):

Border commissions that haven't done their work,

Asbed (00:32:23):

enclave issues,

Asbed (00:32:24):

exclave issues,

Asbed (00:32:25):

all these things.

Asbed (00:32:26):

Western Azerbaijan, supposedly, all these things are just fuzzy.

Asbed (00:32:30):

We don't know what these preconditions are.

Hovik (00:32:32):

Yeah.

Hovik (00:32:33):

And you know what?

Hovik (00:32:34):

This talk of peace is interesting.

Hovik (00:32:38):

Let me just put it that way.

Hovik (00:32:40):

Many parties,

Hovik (00:32:41):

international organizations have been congratulating Armenia and Azerbaijan on the

Hovik (00:32:44):

establishment of peace,

Hovik (00:32:46):

even though we're far from it.

Hovik (00:32:48):

And even you yourself previously today, Benyamin, said that you are...

Hovik (00:32:53):

skeptical about the real signing of peace in Azerbaijan's intentions.

Hovik (00:32:57):

Might we add that even in Kosovo,

Hovik (00:32:59):

which many see as the most one-sided conflict outcome in modern times,

Hovik (00:33:06):

there are still Serbs living in Kosovo.

Hovik (00:33:09):

By contrast,

Hovik (00:33:10):

the Washington document says nothing about the rights of Artsakh refugees or

Hovik (00:33:14):

protecting Armenian cultural heritage in Artsakh,

Hovik (00:33:17):

and even the issue of Armenian hostages held in Baku was downplayed by Pashinyan in

Hovik (00:33:21):

his chatter with Trump.

Hovik (00:33:25):

So, Benyamin,

Hovik (00:33:26):

I also don't want to put you on the spot,

Hovik (00:33:28):

but I have to mention that you were part of this Armenian-Azerbaijani expert

Hovik (00:33:32):

strategic platform.

Hovik (00:33:33):

And your signature or your name is under the statement that says that this platform

Hovik (00:33:38):

is welcoming this Washington memorandum as a step towards peace.

Hovik (00:33:45):

And the statement itself also did not mention anything about Artsakh Armenians.

Hovik (00:33:50):

so can i ask you why did the group that you're part of take that position and since

Hovik (00:33:55):

the main demand uh at least one of the demands still remains in force which is the

Hovik (00:34:00):

change of armenian's constitution how realistic uh is Baku's real intention uh and

Hovik (00:34:08):

Yerevan's ability to deliver this constitutional change yeah regarding the group

Benyamin (00:34:13):

statement as you mentioned we said that this is a

Benyamin (00:34:16):

step towards peace and this was really you cannot say that this was nothing this

Benyamin (00:34:20):

was step towards peace but in the last 30 years there were many steps towards peace

Benyamin (00:34:24):

we can jump starting from 2009 Madrid principles or go back to the 1996 or 1997

Benyamin (00:34:31):

package or step-by-step solutions then Kazan document key west and etc so there

Benyamin (00:34:36):

were a lot of steps towards peace unfortunately at the end of the day we have a war

Benyamin (00:34:41):

and the Nagorno-Karabakh was destroyed

Benyamin (00:34:43):

Now we are speaking about Armenia-Azerbaijan peace.

Benyamin (00:34:45):

And what happened in Washington?

Benyamin (00:34:47):

This was a step towards peace.

Benyamin (00:34:49):

But will we have peace or we are not going to have peace?

Benyamin (00:34:52):

It's a big question mark.

Benyamin (00:34:53):

Regarding the MOUs,

Benyamin (00:34:55):

which were signed,

Benyamin (00:34:57):

my understanding is that there is absolutely no agreement between Armenia and

Benyamin (00:35:01):

Azerbaijan how this TRIPP is going to function.

Benyamin (00:35:05):

Again, this is my personal understanding.

Benyamin (00:35:07):

Zero agreement between Armenia and Azerbaijan how TRIPP is going to function.

Benyamin (00:35:13):

Because again,

Benyamin (00:35:14):

even today,

Benyamin (00:35:15):

during this Shanghai Cooperation Organization Summit,

Benyamin (00:35:17):

we saw the absolutely different interpretations of Washington declarations.

Benyamin (00:35:22):

President Aliyev stating when he was speaking about the Washington Summit and

Benyamin (00:35:27):

Washington Declaration and documents signed in Washington,

Benyamin (00:35:30):

President Aliyev clearly spoke about Zangezur Corridor.

Benyamin (00:35:33):

He said that finally Zangezur Corridor will be implemented.

Benyamin (00:35:37):

as a result of Washington's summit,

Benyamin (00:35:40):

while Prime Minister Pashinyan countered him telling that there is no terminology

Benyamin (00:35:44):

about corridors and there was nothing about corridors.

Benyamin (00:35:48):

So, zero agreement between Armenia and Azerbaijan.

Benyamin (00:35:52):

I'm not sure if there is a clear agreement even between Armenia and the United States.

Benyamin (00:35:57):

Maybe in like very vague or strategic terms,

Benyamin (00:36:00):

there is some sort of agreement between Armenia and the United States that at least

Benyamin (00:36:04):

legally this TRIPP should function under Armenia's sovereignty.

Benyamin (00:36:08):

At least legally.

Benyamin (00:36:09):

What will happen de facto, I'm not sure.

Benyamin (00:36:11):

But I believe that there is no agreement between Armenia and the U.S.

Benyamin (00:36:16):

regarding the details.

Benyamin (00:36:18):

And my understanding is that for the details of the TRIPP, you will need another document.

Benyamin (00:36:23):

So another document should be prepared.

Hovik (00:36:25):

Is it possible that that document has already been signed,

Hovik (00:36:27):

like a secret even appendix or maybe even a secret document between Armenia and the

Hovik (00:36:32):

U.S.

Hovik (00:36:33):

or Armenia, U.S.

Hovik (00:36:34):

and Azerbaijan?

Asbed (00:36:35):

Well, they're saying they're going to get together in September again and discuss more

Asbed (00:36:38):

details of the agreements or the MOUs.

Hovik (00:36:41):

Yeah, but we also know that,

Hovik (00:36:43):

I mean, I don't think the practice of signing secret documents or secret dependencies is

Hovik (00:36:47):

completely...

Hovik (00:36:48):

It's not foreign.

Hovik (00:36:50):

It's not foreign. And I know that...

Hovik (00:36:53):

You know, our guest would probably not know about this if it's secret, truly.

Hovik (00:36:58):

But, you know, what are your thoughts about this?

Hovik (00:36:59):

Because it seems really weird that Trump is talking about corridors and 99-year

Hovik (00:37:05):

leases,

Hovik (00:37:06):

and Pashinyan keeps saying that there is nothing about timelines mentioned here.

Benyamin (00:37:10):

Okay, to be very frank, if we were speaking about any other leader,

Benyamin (00:37:15):

like any other leader of any other major country like Russia or China,

Benyamin (00:37:19):

I would say, yes,

Benyamin (00:37:20):

if the leader of Russia and China are speaking about 99 years or whatever,

Benyamin (00:37:23):

this is very serious.

Benyamin (00:37:24):

It means that there is some secret oral or even written agreements.

Benyamin (00:37:28):

But when we are speaking about President Trump,

Benyamin (00:37:30):

whose attention span is probably like 60 minutes,

Benyamin (00:37:34):

and we know that just two days after signing,

Benyamin (00:37:36):

he...

Benyamin (00:37:37):

thought that he was bringing peace to Albania.

Benyamin (00:37:40):

So I'm not sure what he was speaking about.

Benyamin (00:37:41):

Maybe someone told him something,

Benyamin (00:37:43):

that maybe there is some idea,

Benyamin (00:37:44):

and you know that Tom Barrack is his personal friend.

Benyamin (00:37:47):

Who knows, maybe Barak sent us some WhatsApp message telling that,

Benyamin (00:37:50):

oh, I think it's a good idea to have 99 years lease.

Benyamin (00:37:52):

Trump read this WhatsApp message and suddenly during press conference remembered

Benyamin (00:37:55):

that he got some WhatsApp message from Tom Barak.

Benyamin (00:37:58):

So frankly speaking,

Benyamin (00:37:59):

if it was President Putin or presidency,

Benyamin (00:38:01):

I would say definitely this is very serious.

Benyamin (00:38:04):

On President Trump,

Benyamin (00:38:06):

Given, look,

Benyamin (00:38:07):

even if you look into like,

Benyamin (00:38:08):

maybe it's not directly connected to other topic,

Benyamin (00:38:10):

but like US-Russia relations,

Benyamin (00:38:12):

President Trump stated like 10 times in the last two months that he's going to put

Benyamin (00:38:16):

sanctions on Russia,

Benyamin (00:38:17):

deadlines, et cetera,

Benyamin (00:38:18):

et cetera, et cetera.

Benyamin (00:38:19):

Then he ended with meeting with President Putin.

Benyamin (00:38:22):

Then he agreed something with President Putin.

Benyamin (00:38:24):

Then he said that he didn't agree something with President Putin.

Benyamin (00:38:26):

So frankly speaking, given President Trump foreign policy record of the last eight months,

Benyamin (00:38:31):

I'm not in a position to say that what is telling President Trump has 100% real base.

Benyamin (00:38:37):

Of course, everything is possible.

Benyamin (00:38:39):

Is it possible that some secret things have been signed?

Benyamin (00:38:41):

Of course it's possible.

Benyamin (00:38:42):

You cannot 100% reject if you are not in the room of negotiations.

Benyamin (00:38:47):

But still,

Benyamin (00:38:48):

my understanding is that if it's not the case that we already have some secret

Benyamin (00:38:53):

agreement signed,

Benyamin (00:38:54):

For modalities of TRIPP,

Benyamin (00:38:56):

Armenians in the United States will need to elaborate a document,

Benyamin (00:39:00):

legally binding document,

Benyamin (00:39:02):

not an MOU declaration which has zero legal force.

Benyamin (00:39:05):

Legally binding document,

Benyamin (00:39:07):

maybe interstate document,

Benyamin (00:39:08):

which potentially also probably could be or should be ratified by Armenian

Benyamin (00:39:12):

parliament,

Benyamin (00:39:13):

go to the constitutional court,

Benyamin (00:39:14):

et cetera,

Benyamin (00:39:15):

to finalize the modalities of TRIPP.

Benyamin (00:39:17):

This is my understanding that without existence of legally binding document,

Benyamin (00:39:23):

A TRIPP is not going to happen, simply.

Hovik (00:39:25):

Okay.

Hovik (00:39:26):

So, okay, let's come to the Iranian reaction.

Hovik (00:39:29):

Two weeks ago, it was, after August 8th, Iran's president, Pezeshkian, visited Yerevan.

Hovik (00:39:36):

And there were many agreements signed.

Hovik (00:39:37):

Yet,

Hovik (00:39:39):

from his statements,

Hovik (00:39:40):

it sounded like he left with more unanswered questions about the Trump campaign.

Hovik (00:39:45):

route than when he arrived.

Hovik (00:39:48):

I just want to remind people,

Hovik (00:39:49):

you know, he said that,

Hovik (00:39:50):

you know, prior to the visit,

Hovik (00:39:53):

Iran was sending signals that,

Hovik (00:39:55):

you know,

Hovik (00:39:56):

they're like lukewarm about this deal.

Hovik (00:40:00):

Maybe our Iranian red lines were preserved.

Hovik (00:40:03):

And after leaving Yerevan, he insisted that Iranian red lines must be preserved.

Hovik (00:40:08):

Then,

Hovik (00:40:09):

two days ago,

Hovik (00:40:10):

Armen Grigoryan,

Hovik (00:40:11):

chair of the Armenian National Security Council,

Hovik (00:40:13):

spent a long day in Tehran meetings with his counterparts,

Hovik (00:40:18):

the president, the foreign minister,

Hovik (00:40:19):

and so on.

Hovik (00:40:20):

It seems to be like a very high-profile visit for a chairman of the Security Council.

Hovik (00:40:25):

Now, President Pezeshkian said that the visit by Grigoryan contributed to effectively

Hovik (00:40:30):

addressing the existing uncertainties in Iran.

Hovik (00:40:35):

So again, we're seeing mixed signals.

Hovik (00:40:37):

Of course,

Hovik (00:40:38):

I'm not even citing the reactions from the representatives of the IRGC or even the

Hovik (00:40:45):

advisors to the supreme leader of Iran.

Hovik (00:40:49):

So I want to ask you, are Iran's concerns addressed or not addressed?

Hovik (00:40:53):

Is Iran justified in its concerns with potential U.S.

Hovik (00:40:56):

presence on its border?

Benyamin (00:40:58):

Okay, let's put it this way.

Benyamin (00:41:00):

If I was an expert sitting in Tehran, of course, I will be concerned by any U.S.

Benyamin (00:41:04):

presence along Armenian-Iran border, given the Iran-Israel war, given U.S.

Benyamin (00:41:09):

direct military attack against Iran, and given the likelihood of another Iran-Israel war.

Benyamin (00:41:17):

the coming months is unlikely to have another US military strike against Iran.

Benyamin (00:41:22):

Of course, if you are sitting in Tehran and you are expert or you are responsible for your

Benyamin (00:41:26):

country's foreign defense policy,

Benyamin (00:41:28):

you should have concerns.

Benyamin (00:41:30):

I think the problem here is that the Armenian government cannot answer all Iranian

Benyamin (00:41:35):

questions because, as I mentioned,

Benyamin (00:41:36):

the Armenian government has no answer to these questions.

Benyamin (00:41:38):

Again, if there is no agreement between Armenia and Azerbaijan,

Benyamin (00:41:42):

how this TRIPP is going to function.

Benyamin (00:41:45):

And if there is no signed clear agreement even between Armenians and the United

Benyamin (00:41:50):

States about technical details,

Benyamin (00:41:53):

how this TRIPP route is going to be functioning.

Benyamin (00:41:56):

Again, maybe there is an understanding between Armenians and the United States that this

Benyamin (00:41:59):

will be within Armenian territorial integrity and sovereignty.

Benyamin (00:42:02):

Okay, sounds excellent, but we all know that the devil always in details.

Benyamin (00:42:07):

So, Iranians are coming to Armenia,

Benyamin (00:42:09):

or Armenians are going to Iran,

Benyamin (00:42:11):

and Iranians are asking concrete questions.

Benyamin (00:42:13):

I assume they are asking concrete questions,

Benyamin (00:42:17):

while Armenians,

Benyamin (00:42:18):

Armenian officials, are not in a position to provide concrete answers,

Benyamin (00:42:21):

because they don't know the answers,

Benyamin (00:42:22):

because

Benyamin (00:42:23):

The details are not agreed.

Benyamin (00:42:25):

Armenian officials are repeating like a mantra,

Benyamin (00:42:27):

everything will be within Armenian territorial integrity,

Benyamin (00:42:30):

sovereignty and jurisdiction.

Benyamin (00:42:34):

But then Iranians asking are OK,

Benyamin (00:42:36):

will, for example,

Benyamin (00:42:37):

like a question,

Benyamin (00:42:38):

will Armenians check Azerbaijani passports?

Benyamin (00:42:42):

Nobody knows.

Benyamin (00:42:43):

Will Armenians do some customs checks?

Benyamin (00:42:47):

Nobody knows.

Benyamin (00:42:48):

Will Americans do passport control for Azerbaijanis,

Benyamin (00:42:51):

scan Azerbaijani passports and then share the information with Armenians?

Benyamin (00:42:54):

Okay, nobody knows.

Benyamin (00:42:56):

If Americans are going to do that, what kind of Americans?

Benyamin (00:42:58):

These will be private American citizens?

Benyamin (00:43:00):

This will be like who?

Benyamin (00:43:02):

Based on what?

Benyamin (00:43:03):

And if these are Americans,

Benyamin (00:43:06):

it means that Americans will be deployed physically along the Armenian-Iran border.

Benyamin (00:43:09):

What are the guarantees that

Benyamin (00:43:12):

besides checking Azerbaijani passports or scanning Azerbaijani trains,

Benyamin (00:43:16):

they will not do anything else.

Benyamin (00:43:18):

So my understanding is that Iranians will ask,

Benyamin (00:43:20):

or probably they are asking,

Benyamin (00:43:21):

all these questions to Prime Minister,

Benyamin (00:43:23):

Minister of Foreign Affairs,

Benyamin (00:43:24):

Secretary of Security Council,

Benyamin (00:43:26):

Deputy Foreign Minister,

Benyamin (00:43:27):

but our officials cannot provide answers because they don't know.

Benyamin (00:43:30):

The problem is that they don't know.

Benyamin (00:43:32):

They can speak only in a very vague strategic term,

Benyamin (00:43:36):

that everything, again, will be within Armenian sovereignty,

Benyamin (00:43:38):

territorial integrity,

Benyamin (00:43:39):

and jurisdiction.

Benyamin (00:43:40):

When you are going into details,

Benyamin (00:43:42):

they cannot provide answers because they don't know,

Benyamin (00:43:44):

because there are no agreements.

Benyamin (00:43:45):

And of course, because they are not

Benyamin (00:43:47):

in a position to provide detailed answers because they don't know the detailed

Benyamin (00:43:51):

answers,

Benyamin (00:43:52):

of course,

Benyamin (00:43:53):

Iran's concern will remain because Iran may say,

Benyamin (00:43:55):

okay,

Benyamin (00:43:56):

you don't know the details,

Benyamin (00:43:57):

which means that details will be negotiated later.

Benyamin (00:44:00):

Okay, but what are the guarantees?

Benyamin (00:44:01):

What will be the result of these future negotiations?

Benyamin (00:44:04):

How you can give us 100% guarantees that as a result of these upcoming

Benyamin (00:44:08):

negotiations,

Benyamin (00:44:09):

you will not do something which Iran may perceive as unacceptable.

Benyamin (00:44:12):

No one can guarantee to Iranians.

Benyamin (00:44:15):

And that is why we have this situation.

Asbed (00:44:17):

Benyamin, one of the key concessions or key benefits that Aliyev got in Washington was

Asbed (00:44:23):

was the agreement that the OSCE Minsk Group was going to be dissolved.

Asbed (00:44:28):

And of course, that happened today.

Asbed (00:44:30):

It was slated to happen on September 1st.

Asbed (00:44:32):

We're recording this on September 1st.

Asbed (00:44:34):

And just today, the OSCE Council of Ministers announced the decision to close the Minsk Group.

Asbed (00:44:39):

It's done.

Asbed (00:44:40):

So essentially there's no international platform to discuss the cause of the

Asbed (00:44:45):

Artsakh Nagorno-Karabakh self-determination issue and the right of return of the

Asbed (00:44:51):

people.

Asbed (00:44:52):

So where does this leave the case of 150,000 Artsakh Armenians who were ethnically

Asbed (00:44:57):

cleansed and are disenfranchised refugees in Armenia?

Benyamin (00:45:03):

Okay. To be very frank, this leaves the question to nowhere.

Benyamin (00:45:07):

If we speak about international fora,

Benyamin (00:45:10):

But much depends on Armenian society inside Armenia,

Benyamin (00:45:13):

on Armenian diaspora,

Benyamin (00:45:14):

and on Armenian government.

Benyamin (00:45:15):

Of course, current government position is very clear, and Prime Minister stated it many times.

Benyamin (00:45:20):

I don't want to repeat,

Benyamin (00:45:21):

we all know what Prime Minister thinks about Nagorno-Karabakh movement and about

Benyamin (00:45:25):

the possibilities to the right of return of Armenians or the possibilities to

Benyamin (00:45:30):

continue to demand the right of return or whatever.

Asbed (00:45:33):

Benyamin, Pashinyan explicitly has said, forget your rights, forget your homeland.

Asbed (00:45:37):

He said that the Artsakh cause should be shut down.

Asbed (00:45:40):

It was a historic mistake, etc.

Hovik (00:45:44):

In fact, even talking about the rights of Artsakh people is a threat to Armenia's security.

Hovik (00:45:50):

That's right.

Benyamin (00:45:52):

Yes, or continuation of Karabakh movement in Armenia or continuation of movement to

Benyamin (00:45:56):

divine right of return is a threat to Armenian security.

Benyamin (00:45:58):

So as far as current government is there,

Benyamin (00:46:00):

it's clear that at the governmental level,

Benyamin (00:46:03):

Armenia will do nothing.

Benyamin (00:46:06):

The problem is that in the future, no government will rule forever.

Benyamin (00:46:10):

I think this is one thing which everybody can be sure of.

Benyamin (00:46:13):

The problem is that because there is no means group starting from September 1st,

Benyamin (00:46:17):

2025, it will be extremely challenging for even the next government,

Benyamin (00:46:21):

whenever it comes in 2026 or later,

Benyamin (00:46:24):

to bring this question back to international fora because there are no platforms.

Benyamin (00:46:28):

Of course, Azerbaijan will reject and others will say, okay, there is no international fora.

Benyamin (00:46:33):

You cannot go to OFA means group to ask to establish any new group because

Benyamin (00:46:37):

Azerbaijan simply will veto it.

Benyamin (00:46:39):

So it's extremely challenging to see what can be done in international fora.

Benyamin (00:46:44):

But again,

Benyamin (00:46:47):

as far as current government is in place,

Benyamin (00:46:49):

I think it's up to Armenian society or part of Armenian society and part of

Benyamin (00:46:53):

Armenian diaspora.

Benyamin (00:46:55):

Not to forget about Nagorno-Karabakh,

Benyamin (00:46:56):

not to forget about ethnic cleansing,

Benyamin (00:46:58):

which happens there in 2023.

Benyamin (00:47:00):

Not to forget about the right of return.

Benyamin (00:47:03):

But again, anything can be done, but I'm not sure how.

Benyamin (00:47:06):

Only if there will be a government in Armenia,

Benyamin (00:47:08):

which again will say that,

Benyamin (00:47:09):

okay, guys,

Benyamin (00:47:10):

this issue should be,

Benyamin (00:47:11):

I'm going to bring back this issue.

Benyamin (00:47:13):

But I'm not in a position to say how it's going to do that.

Benyamin (00:47:17):

But until there is a government who thinks that this issue should be bring back,

Benyamin (00:47:21):

The only option to keep this issue alive is through civil activities or

Benyamin (00:47:26):

non-governmental activities in Armenia and in diaspora.

Benyamin (00:47:29):

I don't see any other way.

Hovik (00:47:30):

Okay.

Hovik (00:47:31):

And for our last topic, let's talk a little bit about Russia and Azerbaijan again.

Hovik (00:47:36):

Last week, Russian-Azerbaijani relations deteriorated further.

Hovik (00:47:41):

In an Al-Arabiya interview,

Hovik (00:47:43):

which we will link to in our show notes,

Hovik (00:47:45):

Ilham Aliyev called Russia an occupier since 1920.

Hovik (00:47:50):

and again labeled the war in Ukraine as a Russian invasion.

Hovik (00:47:54):

Unlike Pashinyan,

Hovik (00:47:56):

Aliyev did not meet Putin on the sidelines of Shanghai Cooperation Organization,

Hovik (00:48:02):

despite earlier rumors.

Hovik (00:48:03):

Maybe they will meet again, but I'm not sure.

Hovik (00:48:05):

I mean, it seems like most of the meetings, high profile meetings, have already happened.

Hovik (00:48:10):

And in Moscow,

Hovik (00:48:12):

Duma member Konstantin Zatulin,

Hovik (00:48:14):

known for his pro-Armenian views,

Hovik (00:48:15):

but nevertheless,

Hovik (00:48:16):

he told Lenta.ru that,

Hovik (00:48:19):

and I'm quoting, we should not delude ourselves about Azerbaijan or imagine it as our partner.

Hovik (00:48:24):

That was a mistake or maybe a misunderstanding, depending on how you translate it.

Hovik (00:48:28):

So I want to ask you a very,

Hovik (00:48:30):

very,

Hovik (00:48:31):

at a very high level,

Hovik (00:48:32):

how do you see the developments between Russia and Azerbaijan?

Hovik (00:48:36):

How do you see the recent developments reflected on the overall Russia-Azerbaijan relationship?

Benyamin (00:48:41):

Okay. My understanding is that President Aliyev really starts to believe that Azerbaijan

Benyamin (00:48:44):

is a middle power,

Benyamin (00:48:46):

really starts to believe to his own propaganda that Azerbaijan is a middle power.

Benyamin (00:48:51):

That if you jump into soccer terms that Azerbaijan left the Europe league and now

Benyamin (00:48:55):

enter champions,

Benyamin (00:48:56):

Champions League.

Benyamin (00:48:57):

and that the great powers should treat Azerbaijan as a middle power, with respect.

Benyamin (00:49:05):

Of course, we may agree or may not agree, but I have doubts that Azerbaijan is a middle power.

Benyamin (00:49:12):

So I think that at this time,

Benyamin (00:49:14):

and maybe because he thinks that Israel is behind him,

Benyamin (00:49:18):

or I don't know,

Benyamin (00:49:19):

this Jewish lobby is behind him or whoever is behind him,

Benyamin (00:49:22):

I think President Aliyev is now chewing a little bit more than he can digest.

Benyamin (00:49:28):

So let's wait how this situation will end.

Benyamin (00:49:30):

But again,

Benyamin (00:49:31):

he really believes that Azerbaijan is a middle power,

Benyamin (00:49:34):

something like almost equal to Turkey,

Benyamin (00:49:36):

to Israel, to Saudi Arabia.

Benyamin (00:49:38):

And he wants that Mr.

Benyamin (00:49:39):

Putin treats himself as he treats Erdogan or Mohammed bin Salman or others.

Benyamin (00:49:44):

But I think at least here Mr. Aliyev is doing a big mistake.

Benyamin (00:49:48):

As far as I understand Russia,

Benyamin (00:49:51):

He will get his response.

Benyamin (00:49:52):

I don't know when, I don't know how, I simply don't know.

Benyamin (00:49:56):

But my understanding of Russia gives me the base to argue that President Aliyev

Benyamin (00:50:02):

will get quite tough response.

Benyamin (00:50:04):

Maybe not now,

Benyamin (00:50:05):

maybe, I don't know,

Benyamin (00:50:06):

three years from now,

Benyamin (00:50:07):

ten years from now,

Benyamin (00:50:08):

maybe three months from now,

Benyamin (00:50:09):

I don't know.

Benyamin (00:50:10):

But this is my understanding of the situation.

Asbed (00:50:13):

It's interesting to hear you say that it was all Aliyev's propaganda.

Asbed (00:50:18):

Propaganda that is so good that you believe it yourself.

Benyamin (00:50:21):

Yeah,

Benyamin (00:50:22):

sometimes I have a feeling that President Aliyev really believes to his own

Benyamin (00:50:25):

propaganda that Azerbaijan is now next Israel,

Benyamin (00:50:27):

next Turkey,

Benyamin (00:50:28):

next Saudi Arabia.

Benyamin (00:50:29):

I don't know even, but to be very frank, it's a little bit ridiculous.

Asbed (00:50:33):

Yeah.

Asbed (00:50:34):

And the other thing that's amazing is when we were mentioning Zatulin and what he

Asbed (00:50:38):

has said,

Asbed (00:50:39):

that is kind of an amazing amount of free speech and expression that they have

Asbed (00:50:45):

where he can come out and say basically he thinks that Russian foreign policy was

Asbed (00:50:50):

on the wrong tracks about that.

Asbed (00:50:52):

Come to the United States, be in the government and say that.

Hovik (00:50:55):

I mean, it's not that amazing for Russia, to be honest.

Asbed (00:50:57):

I know,

Asbed (00:50:58):

but here's the Western side,

Asbed (00:51:01):

basically champions of human rights and free speech and expression and everything.

Asbed (00:51:05):

And today, I don't think you can do that in the American government and still keep your job in

Asbed (00:51:10):

the State Department.

Hovik (00:51:12):

All right, well, let's conclude the portion of our show with our guest, Benyamin.

Hovik (00:51:17):

But before we go, I'd like to ask Benyamin and Asbed.

Hovik (00:51:21):

Traditionally, Asbed is doing the asking, but we're going to change the tradition.

Hovik (00:51:25):

I wanted to ask Benyamin and Asbed about any thoughts that you might have this week.

Hovik (00:51:31):

So let's begin with Benyamin, if you don't mind.

Benyamin (00:51:34):

Okay.

Benyamin (00:51:36):

We should not forget that tomorrow is September 2nd,

Benyamin (00:51:38):

the Declaration of Independence of Nagorno-Karabakh Republic.

Benyamin (00:51:42):

And we should not allow anyone to delete part of our memory,

Benyamin (00:51:45):

like simply to say that,

Benyamin (00:51:46):

okay,

Benyamin (00:51:47):

guys, forget 32 years of the existence of Nagorno-Karabakh Republic.

Benyamin (00:51:52):

We, I mean, Armenian nation, we should not do that.

Benyamin (00:51:55):

It's very clear, and we discussed that under current circumstances,

Benyamin (00:51:58):

it's not clear how the Karabakh issue can be brought back into the international

Benyamin (00:52:04):

fora. Will it be brought back or is not going to be brought back?

Benyamin (00:52:07):

But again,

Benyamin (00:52:08):

at least within our consciousness,

Benyamin (00:52:11):

within our memory,

Benyamin (00:52:13):

we should not forget that we had the Second Armenian Republic for 32 years,

Benyamin (00:52:17):

September 1991,

Benyamin (00:52:18):

September 2023.

Asbed (00:52:21):

Benyamin, you stole a little bit of my thunder because I was also going to talk about

Asbed (00:52:25):

September 2nd.

Asbed (00:52:27):

So I'll just mention that like Tevan said on our show last week in his personal

Asbed (00:52:31):

thoughts, remember and celebrate independence of Artsakh,

Asbed (00:52:35):

even under the current circumstances,

Asbed (00:52:37):

because it is by keeping it alive in your hearts that we will one day make it

Asbed (00:52:41):

happen again that we return.

Asbed (00:52:42):

OK, a rally is planned.

Asbed (00:52:44):

So today we are recording this on September 1st.

Asbed (00:52:47):

Tomorrow, I believe, on September 2nd, there is a rally planned on Freedom Square in Yerevan.

Asbed (00:52:53):

If you are there, please go join them and show your support.

Hovik (00:52:57):

okay i lied i'm gonna i'm gonna say something because i think that uh yes i agree

Hovik (00:53:03):

and keeping a memory uh alive doesn't mean to me it doesn't mean just to keep it

Hovik (00:53:09):

bottled in my head or in my heart in my soul it also means talking about it every

Hovik (00:53:14):

opportunity i can and in public i think we read one of the comments uh about uh

Hovik (00:53:21):

You know, that you guys keep complaining and not doing anything.

Hovik (00:53:24):

Well, I'm doing everything I can within my purview and with my abilities on this platform.

Hovik (00:53:32):

And we will continue talking about Artsakh.

Hovik (00:53:34):

We will continue talking about the injustice that was bestowed upon the Armenians,

Hovik (00:53:41):

partly thanks to the leadership of the Armenian traders that we have right now.

Hovik (00:53:46):

And nothing is going to change about that.

Hovik (00:53:49):

So, you know, go.

Hovik (00:53:52):

go take a cold shower if you want.

Hovik (00:53:53):

I don't know.

Hovik (00:53:54):

I don't know what else to say.

Hovik (00:53:55):

And yes, definitely,

Hovik (00:53:56):

I would urge everyone to also use September 2,

Hovik (00:54:00):

not just to participate physically,

Hovik (00:54:03):

but also online.

Hovik (00:54:05):

And if you have any photos or anything that you remember about Artsakh,

Hovik (00:54:09):

now is a good time to share them.

Asbed (00:54:13):

Thank you, Hovig.

Asbed (00:54:14):

That's not a breach of the contract here that you didn't want to have something to

Asbed (00:54:17):

say,

Asbed (00:54:18):

but I'm very happy you said that.

Asbed (00:54:19):

All three of us about the independence of Artsakh on September 2nd.

Asbed (00:54:23):

Okay, that's all the time we have.

Asbed (00:54:25):

Thank you so much, Benyamin, for joining us.

Asbed (00:54:28):

We really do appreciate you coming on our show.

Benyamin (00:54:32):

Thank you very much for having me.

Asbed (00:54:34):

Thank you.

Hovik (00:54:39):

Well, Aspet,

Hovik (00:54:40):

our guest has just left,

Hovik (00:54:41):

and I think that we are now free to talk about stories that are too hot,

Hovik (00:54:47):

too weird,

Hovik (00:54:48):

or just too corrupt to leave out.

Hovik (00:54:50):

Let's start with you.

Hovik (00:54:51):

What do you want to talk about?

Asbed (00:54:53):

Well,

Asbed (00:54:54):

obviously, this past week,

Asbed (00:54:55):

there was a big rally,

Asbed (00:54:58):

and on Friday,

Asbed (00:54:59):

jail tycoon Samvel Karapetyan launched his new movement.

Asbed (00:55:02):

We've been expecting to see this.

Asbed (00:55:03):

It's called Our Way, Mer Dzevov, and you can use the hashtag #MerDzevov.

Asbed (00:55:09):

which he said will become a political force in the 2026 elections.

Asbed (00:55:12):

I was a little confused because I read some articles where it said Mer Dzevov

Asbed (00:55:16):

should be an apolitical movement.

Asbed (00:55:18):

And then there were some articles that said it's going to be a force in the 2026 elections.

Asbed (00:55:23):

So it remains to be seen exactly how this whole thing is going to pan out.

Asbed (00:55:27):

Now, the head of the movement is Samvel's nephew, Narek Karapetyan.

Asbed (00:55:31):

And that is because Samvel holds dual Russian and Armenian citizenship,

Asbed (00:55:36):

which would prevent him from becoming prime minister.

Asbed (00:55:38):

So it's not exactly clear who would head this party if it goes into the elections.

Asbed (00:55:44):

And you might ask, why is the man in jail?

Asbed (00:55:47):

Well, we've talked about this beyond all of the harassments of nationalizing his electric

Asbed (00:55:52):

company of Armenia,

Asbed (00:55:53):

ENA,

Asbed (00:55:55):

Electric Network of Armenia.

Asbed (00:55:57):

There are claims of corruption, et cetera, et cetera.

Asbed (00:55:59):

But the reality is that Pashinyan has basically said,

Asbed (00:56:02):

and we're providing all these links in the show notes.

Asbed (00:56:06):

He's basically said that it's because Samvel Karapetyan would run in the 2026 elections.

Asbed (00:56:10):

And we know how Pashinyan

Asbed (00:56:12):

widely popular he is.

Asbed (00:56:13):

He's popular with anti-government circles and he's popular with anti-opposition circles.

Asbed (00:56:19):

Both of those constituencies are highly unpopular.

Asbed (00:56:21):

We've seen the polls.

Asbed (00:56:22):

We've discussed the polls.

Asbed (00:56:23):

For example,

Asbed (00:56:24):

the Pashinyan and civil contract polls indicate that they are in the teens,

Asbed (00:56:28):

like 13 to 17 percent popularity.

Asbed (00:56:30):

The same thing with the opposition.

Asbed (00:56:33):

But if you come to Samvel Karapetyan,

Asbed (00:56:35):

he's tapping into the 60 to 70 percent of disenchanted people and

Asbed (00:56:40):

you know, he represents a credible potential for winning the coming elections.

Asbed (00:56:44):

And that's why I think he's in jail.

Hovik (00:56:47):

Yeah. And if you watch the press conference that was given by Narek Karapetyan,

Hovik (00:56:51):

he basically said that this movement that they're starting is apolitical or

Hovik (00:56:58):

essentially more focused on being a forum for technocrats.

Hovik (00:57:02):

But the actual founding of a political party and the political movement

Hovik (00:57:08):

is scheduled for later in the year.

Hovik (00:57:10):

I believe he mentioned December as a timeframe.

Hovik (00:57:12):

So it seems like they are delaying the political activities,

Hovik (00:57:17):

the actually direct political activities until December.

Hovik (00:57:21):

But obviously these are all related.

Hovik (00:57:23):

So they're going to use this.

Asbed (00:57:25):

Do you think that they expect Samvel will be out of jail by then?

Hovik (00:57:29):

I don't think so unless, you know, unless things change drastically.

Hovik (00:57:35):

But I believe that this is basically like electioneering under any other name.

Hovik (00:57:41):

But I think it's good for the Karapetyan team to talk about,

Hovik (00:57:47):

you know, the problems that the Pashinyan regime is bringing forward without specifically

Hovik (00:57:52):

jumping into politics.

Hovik (00:57:54):

Hovig, what do you have?

Hovik (00:57:56):

So on this topic, we talked about the electric networks of Armenia.

Hovik (00:58:00):

It was one of Karapetian's companies that is being nationalized by Pashinyan.

Hovik (00:58:07):

And there was this press conference that Pashinyan gave where he said something to

Hovik (00:58:13):

the effect of the government is me.

Hovik (00:58:15):

It reminded me of Louis XIV's famous statement.

Hovik (00:58:19):

How do you say it?

Hovik (00:58:20):

Is it L'État c'est Moi?

Asbed (00:58:21):

L'État c'est Moi!

Asbed (00:58:25):

Sorry, I don't know exactly how Louis XiV would sound.

Hovik (00:58:29):

Anyway, so more details about this.

Hovik (00:58:32):

So Pashinyan was giving a press conference and during that press conference,

Hovik (00:58:36):

he effectively fired the state's top lawyer,

Hovik (00:58:40):

Liparit Drmeyan,

Hovik (00:58:42):

who had previously warned regulators to obey the Stockholm arbitration order.

Hovik (00:58:48):

that warns Armenia not to mess with the electric utility while arbitration is pending.

Hovik (00:58:55):

And it's funny because the statement from Liparit Drmeyan was more like,

Hovik (00:59:01):

you know,

Hovik (00:59:02):

in general,

Hovik (00:59:04):

orders from the arbitration court are binding,

Hovik (00:59:07):

but, you know,

Hovik (00:59:08):

he provided a proviso,

Hovik (00:59:09):

uh,

Hovik (00:59:11):

Pashinyan didn't find that very funny,

Hovik (00:59:14):

and at the press conference when he was asked about Drmeyan's statement,

Hovik (00:59:18):

he pretended that he didn't know about it and delivered the statement,

Hovik (00:59:22):

I am the government,

Hovik (00:59:23):

and said that anyone who disagrees with this should resign or be fired.

Asbed (00:59:29):

Can I just bring in for one second the Zatulin thing?

Asbed (00:59:33):

Just imagine a person in the Armenian government here who is having a disagreement

Asbed (00:59:38):

and voices it,

Asbed (00:59:40):

right? In Russia, you can do that.

Asbed (00:59:42):

And in Armenia, you can't do that.

Asbed (00:59:43):

Well, I mean, Zatulin is a member of the legislature, but I get that point.

Asbed (00:59:48):

Just imagine Alen Simonian coming out and saying that he disagrees with Pashinyan.

Asbed (00:59:53):

And let's see how long he keeps his speakership.

Hovik (00:59:55):

So I get it.

Hovik (00:59:56):

There's this dividing line between executive and in the executive branch versus legislative.

Hovik (01:00:03):

But in any case, immediately after that statement, Liparit was gone.

Hovik (01:00:09):

Can we say au revoir Liparit and l'état c'est moi?

Hovik (01:00:13):

That's a lot of French today in our show.

Hovik (01:00:15):

Yeah.

Hovik (01:00:16):

So here's the kicker.

Hovik (01:00:18):

The lawyers from Samvel Karapetyan who are seeking up to a $500 million

Hovik (01:00:23):

judgment in damages thanked Pashinyan for helping their arbitration case.

Hovik (01:00:29):

It seems like with each podium mic drop,

Hovik (01:00:31):

Pashinyan is,

Hovik (01:00:33):

you know,

Hovik (01:00:34):

solving the case for the Karapetyan lawyers.

Hovik (01:00:42):

But the real kicker, do you want to know the real kicker, Asbed?

Hovik (01:00:44):

Tell me.

Hovik (01:00:46):

So who else should Pashinyan appoint as a replacement for Liparit Drmeyan, you may ask?

Asbed (01:00:52):

Oh, well, I happen to know.

Asbed (01:00:53):

So I'm not going to be very good at feigning surprise,

Asbed (01:00:57):

but I was surprised when I heard it and I go,

Asbed (01:00:59):

oh my God.

Hovik (01:01:00):

Yeah. So remember this guy, Karen Andreasyan, you know, as the head of the Supreme Judicial Council,

Hovik (01:01:08):

He was supposed to be independent, right?

Hovik (01:01:09):

And yet in 2024, he basically resigned after Pashinyan told him to resign in a WhatsApp message.

Hovik (01:01:17):

This is not fiction.

Hovik (01:01:18):

This is Pashinyan admitting himself.

Asbed (01:01:19):

He was one of eight people who got fired by text.

Hovik (01:01:23):

Yeah, so we thought like normal people would think,

Hovik (01:01:25):

oh, this is basically burning the bridges between two people.

Hovik (01:01:27):

But that's the quality of government officials in Armenia,

Hovik (01:01:32):

where you can be fired and rehired as long as you toe the line.

Hovik (01:01:37):

And it's clear that Karin Andreasyan is one of those lowlifes that fits the

Hovik (01:01:44):

criteria of being in the employee of Pashinyan.

Asbed (01:01:48):

We told you last week on our show that when you hear somebody terrible is getting

Asbed (01:01:53):

fired, don't celebrate.

Asbed (01:01:55):

It's a very small circle of, you know, acolytes, minions, and it's a revolving door policy.

Asbed (01:02:02):

You'll get fired from something,

Asbed (01:02:03):

just wait it out for a month or so,

Asbed (01:02:05):

you'll get promoted to something else.

Asbed (01:02:07):

And so as one example,

Asbed (01:02:10):

well, it's not a good example here,

Asbed (01:02:11):

but Lilit Makunts left the embassy in Washington DC is now appointed an advisor

Asbed (01:02:18):

of the prime minister chief advisor chief advisor chief advisor of the prime

Asbed (01:02:22):

minister you know what I thought about that whole week I thought hey I think the IQ

Asbed (01:02:26):

level in that room just went up

Asbed (01:02:29):

Hovig, let's talk a little bit about this Netanyahu recognizing the Armenian genocide issue.

Asbed (01:02:36):

Because speaking on the Armenian-American Patrick Bet-David's podcast,

Asbed (01:02:41):

Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu was asked why no Israeli government has

Asbed (01:02:47):

done that.

Asbed (01:02:48):

And he said, basically, "I just have.

Asbed (01:02:50):

There you go."

Asbed (01:02:51):

He personally recognizes the Armenian genocide as a genocide.

Asbed (01:02:55):

And

Asbed (01:02:56):

Well, you should, of course, read the Armenian media.

Asbed (01:02:58):

They exploded saying that Israel has just recognized the Armenian genocide.

Asbed (01:03:03):

Many of them took off and put these claims all over the place.

Asbed (01:03:06):

It was... it basically went viral.

Asbed (01:03:09):

Unfortunately, I think Netanyahu did a personal recognition simply saying, I just did.

Asbed (01:03:16):

He didn't say anything else.

Asbed (01:03:18):

The Israeli Knesset has never voted on this issue,

Asbed (01:03:20):

even though when Netanyahu said something about- The Knesset voting,

Hovik (01:03:24):

yeah, he lied.

Asbed (01:03:25):

Basically, he lied.

Asbed (01:03:27):

The Knesset has not voted on this.

Asbed (01:03:29):

Israel has not officially as a country recognized this.

Asbed (01:03:32):

And past efforts have always fallen victim to Turkish-Israeli relations and politics.

Hovik (01:03:38):

And not just in Israel,

Hovik (01:03:39):

I mean the AIPAC lobby or the Israeli lobby in the United States is the chief

Hovik (01:03:43):

reason why American recognition was delayed for so many years.

Hovik (01:03:48):

So this is just a cynical ploy by a genocider himself,

Hovik (01:03:54):

Netanyahu,

Hovik (01:03:55):

to try to deflect attention away from Israel.

Hovik (01:04:00):

But of course, this didn't stop the government of another genocidal regime,

Hovik (01:04:05):

Turkey,

Hovik (01:04:06):

to condemn Netanyahu's statement.

Hovik (01:04:09):

And they're very reactive.

Hovik (01:04:12):

But guess who else didn't like Netanyahu's recognition?

Hovik (01:04:16):

I can guess.

Hovik (01:04:17):

I can guess.

Hovik (01:04:18):

Yes, you guessed it right.

Hovik (01:04:19):

Pashinyan.

Hovik (01:04:20):

In March, he promised Erdogan that Armenia would no longer prioritize

Hovik (01:04:24):

international recognition of the Armenian Genocide and called those resolutions by

Hovik (01:04:30):

countries who have recognized it as undermining regional stability and he continued

Hovik (01:04:34):

doing so and he said that recognition of the Armenian Genocide has nothing to do

Hovik (01:04:38):

with Armenia and Armenia's foreign policy.

Asbed (01:04:41):

You know what's interesting?

Asbed (01:04:42):

I was looking through the news,

Asbed (01:04:44):

of course, and there's this ARAR Civilizational Research Foundation.

Asbed (01:04:48):

And there was an article summarizing its research findings and the surveys that it has done.

Asbed (01:04:54):

Hovik,

Asbed (01:04:56):

guess what is the number one topic that Armenians agree on as far as Armenia's

Asbed (01:05:02):

international policy goes?

Hovik (01:05:04):

I don't know if it's any red-bottled Armenian, I would say it's a genocide.

Asbed (01:05:09):

Of course.

Asbed (01:05:10):

95.1% of surveyed people basically said the international recognition of the

Asbed (01:05:14):

Armenian genocide is the highest priority.

Asbed (01:05:19):

And this has to contrast with what Pashinyan has said.

Asbed (01:05:22):

I only found an article that summarized it and there was a broken link in it.

Asbed (01:05:27):

So I've requested to get a link to the full research paper.

Asbed (01:05:31):

As soon as we get that, we will put it in the show notes as well.

Hovik (01:05:34):

I don't know if it's something to be proud of,

Hovik (01:05:38):

because if you keep being genocided,

Hovik (01:05:41):

then of course the recognition of your genocide will be the number one priority for

Hovik (01:05:45):

you and your family members.

Hovik (01:05:47):

And it's just surreal that people tell us to just let bygones be bygones when it

Hovik (01:05:52):

was just two years ago,

Hovik (01:05:53):

I would say,

Hovik (01:05:54):

that was the most recent iteration of the Armenian Genocide.

Hovik (01:05:58):

I mean, if you look at the historical...

Hovik (01:06:00):

links between what happened in Artsakh.

Hovik (01:06:03):

I mean, it didn't just start in the 1990s.

Hovik (01:06:06):

It started in the 1910s.

Hovik (01:06:08):

And the issue of Artsakh,

Hovik (01:06:10):

many historians argue,

Hovik (01:06:12):

is very closely related to the Armenian Genocide and the attempts by the Young

Hovik (01:06:17):

Turks government to cleanse its region of Armenians,

Hovik (01:06:23):

of the Christian presence of Armenians.

Asbed (01:06:25):

Well, look,

Asbed (01:06:26):

in the early part of the century,

Asbed (01:06:29):

in the 1920s,

Asbed (01:06:31):

30s, 40s,

Asbed (01:06:32):

Nakhijevan was 40% Armenian.

Asbed (01:06:34):

And that was down from the 19th century.

Asbed (01:06:37):

And there's nobody there now.

Asbed (01:06:38):

And all of our monuments have been destroyed.

Asbed (01:06:40):

Artsakh until 2023 was, well, okay.

Asbed (01:06:44):

So if we go back with the Artsakh issue,

Asbed (01:06:47):

All the way back to, what was it?

Asbed (01:06:50):

Let's say 1990, because I don't know the exact dates.

Asbed (01:06:52):

It was something like 75% down from the 90s percent Armenian.

Asbed (01:06:57):

And now there's nobody there.

Hovik (01:06:58):

Let's go back even further.

Hovik (01:06:59):

In the 1920s. This is a genocide.

Asbed (01:07:00):

In the 1920s, the population of Artsakh was 90% Armenian.

Hovik (01:07:02):

It was the most heavily Armenian populated population.

Hovik (01:07:12):

district region because through years of genocide even let's say in historical

Hovik (01:07:17):

western armenia like van one van before the genocide had uh 70 percent armenian

Hovik (01:07:23):

population while artsakh was the most heavily populated armenian territory and now

Hovik (01:07:28):

that is gone so yeah yeah i mean keep your you know even even glendale is only 50

Asbed (01:07:34):

armenian jovic you know what leads to uh genocide

Asbed (01:07:40):

Treason leads to genocide.

Asbed (01:07:42):

Of course, yes.

Asbed (01:07:43):

And the Armenian consul to Austria,

Asbed (01:07:44):

Ashkhen Aleksanyan,

Asbed (01:07:45):

was arrested upon her return to Yerevan two months ago.

Asbed (01:07:49):

Apparently,

Asbed (01:07:50):

the NSS found documents that indicated that she had potentially spied for

Asbed (01:07:54):

Azerbaijan,

Asbed (01:07:55):

another case of having a romantic relationship with an Azeri,

Asbed (01:07:59):

or so it seems.

Asbed (01:08:01):

Anyway, they searched the foreign ministry building,

Asbed (01:08:04):

computers, documents,

Asbed (01:08:05):

etc., and they decided to cover it up because if people found out,

Asbed (01:08:10):

it could cause panic.

Asbed (01:08:12):

Cover what up?

Asbed (01:08:14):

I don't know.

Asbed (01:08:15):

There's no information.

Asbed (01:08:16):

Even her social media presence has been wiped out.

Hovik (01:08:20):

Yeah, and I have a few problems.

Hovik (01:08:22):

I mean,

Hovik (01:08:23):

obviously, I think we have to take this with a grain of salt because the Pashinyan regime

Hovik (01:08:27):

itself is led by a traitor at the top.

Hovik (01:08:30):

So I don't know what information could an employee of the foreign ministry divulge

Hovik (01:08:35):

that is worse than what Pashinyan has said.

Hovik (01:08:39):

But also what's interesting is that

Hovik (01:08:42):

All of this happened about a month ago.

Hovik (01:08:44):

So we're learning about this development one month too late.

Hovik (01:08:48):

And that speaks about the level of democracy in Armenia,

Hovik (01:08:52):

where key things like this are kept covered up until the last minute.

Hovik (01:08:58):

Okay, let's move on.

Hovik (01:08:59):

What else do you have?

Hovik (01:09:00):

On the topic of treason,

Hovik (01:09:04):

you know that Armenia is cracking down on unauthorized photos of military

Hovik (01:09:08):

positions.

Hovik (01:09:09):

Yeah, those have been illegal.

Hovik (01:09:11):

Yeah.

Hovik (01:09:12):

In the past, Armenia has arrested even soldiers for treason after they have shared photos with

Hovik (01:09:17):

hot chicks or what they thought to be hot chicks and turned out to be foreign

Hovik (01:09:20):

agents according to government allegations.

Hovik (01:09:22):

Armenia has also passed laws banning the photography near the border.

Hovik (01:09:27):

And it's not clear whether it's like,

Hovik (01:09:29):

one kilometer from the border or half a kilometer.

Hovik (01:09:32):

But in any case,

Hovik (01:09:33):

if you take a picture from the Armenian border that the Armenian government doesn't

Hovik (01:09:36):

like,

Hovik (01:09:37):

you will be arrested.

Hovik (01:09:38):

Even opposition MPs are complaining that they are unable to inspect all military

Hovik (01:09:45):

positions that they request.

Hovik (01:09:46):

So here's a question, Asbed.

Hovik (01:09:48):

If photos of military positions are banned, who will actually get stopped?

Hovik (01:09:52):

The conscript, who shares a selfie with a fake hot chick,

Hovik (01:09:56):

the MP with a badge who wants to inspect border posts, or a Swiss social media influencer.

Hovik (01:10:01):

If you answer that the conscript will get the handcuffs,

Hovik (01:10:05):

the influencer gets the vodka and the views,

Hovik (01:10:07):

and the MP gets the closed door,

Hovik (01:10:09):

then you're right.

Hovik (01:10:10):

And that is real life.

Hovik (01:10:13):

What I'm talking about is the case of a Swiss influencer by the name of Sandro Schmidt,

Hovik (01:10:19):

posting a video on July 31st from an Armenian border post that drew over 400,000 views.

Hovik (01:10:26):

And about a month later,

Hovik (01:10:27):

the Papikyen Defense Ministry,

Hovik (01:10:29):

and I'm not going to call it the Armenian Defense Ministry,

Hovik (01:10:31):

I'm going to call it the Papikyen Defense Ministry,

Hovik (01:10:34):

said that it was opening an investigation.

Hovik (01:10:37):

And in the clip, a motorcyclist reaches the last outpost

Hovik (01:10:43):

on the Armenian border.

Hovik (01:10:44):

He clearly films border positions and he films the border guards offering him vodka

Hovik (01:10:51):

and then cursing Putin.

Hovik (01:10:54):

Meanwhile,

Hovik (01:10:55):

as we said,

Hovik (01:10:56):

opposition MPs are banned from even inspecting those borders and they can't share

Hovik (01:11:00):

any information.

Hovik (01:11:01):

But here's a

Hovik (01:11:02):

Tourist, let's call him a tourist.

Hovik (01:11:04):

I want to be generous.

Hovik (01:11:06):

Maybe he's a spy, who knows?

Hovik (01:11:09):

But he was openly filming Armenian border positions and his video is still up on Facebook.

Asbed (01:11:15):

Hovik, last week we visited the topic of Pashinyan freezing the Armenian defense budget.

Asbed (01:11:22):

You know, I'm so sore about that, even though I wanted to talk about it a little more this week.

Asbed (01:11:27):

I'm not going to do that.

Asbed (01:11:28):

But I'm very sore about that because it just feels to me like it's a self-imposed

Asbed (01:11:33):

disarming of Armenia.

Asbed (01:11:35):

So there's no real defense department right now, as far as I can tell.

Asbed (01:11:38):

It's not self-imposed.

Asbed (01:11:41):

It's not self-imposed, it's an occupational government.

Asbed (01:11:46):

For my next topic, we'll try and keep these things short because we're going on and on.

Asbed (01:11:51):

James O'Brien,

Asbed (01:11:52):

who served as Assistant Secretary of State in the Biden administration,

Asbed (01:11:55):

portrayed the August 8 deal as a major win for Azerbaijan.

Asbed (01:11:59):

and said that Armenia will see no dividends.

Asbed (01:12:01):

He said substantially no dividends from peace.

Asbed (01:12:05):

He also said that Aliyev's preconditions to change the Armenian constitution,

Asbed (01:12:09):

which Pashinyan is planning to implement,

Asbed (01:12:11):

we know this,

Asbed (01:12:12):

will not happen before 2026,

Asbed (01:12:13):

the elections,

Asbed (01:12:15):

and will hurt him in the elections.

Asbed (01:12:17):

All that was achieved was the corridor through Armenia and a few other demands like

Asbed (01:12:22):

today's dissolution of the OSCE MG and the tearing down of the Section 907 and so

Asbed (01:12:27):

on.

Asbed (01:12:29):

Well, in response, Pashinyan slammed back.

Asbed (01:12:32):

He said that he had never been satisfied by the support of the Biden

Asbed (01:12:36):

administration,

Asbed (01:12:37):

and he effectively pointed a finger at them for the events of 2021,

Asbed (01:12:41):

2022, and 2023. This is what he wrote.

Asbed (01:12:48):

Well, frankly,

Asbed (01:12:49):

I was slightly surprised that Pashinyan would even mention the events of 2021,

Asbed (01:12:55):

2022,

Asbed (01:13:06):

2023,

Asbed (01:12:55):

because at the time,

Asbed (01:12:57):

all he did was basically pull the rug over those events and did his best to hush up

Asbed (01:13:02):

the events when Armenian soldiers were shot and murdered.

Asbed (01:13:07):

execution style in border posts by Azeri invaders,

Asbed (01:13:11):

mutilated their bodies,

Asbed (01:13:13):

raped and dismembered women soldiers,

Asbed (01:13:15):

ethnically cleansed the Armenians of Artsakh and a million other things.

Asbed (01:13:18):

I don't know what to say that Pashinyan would not come out and say anything about these things.

Asbed (01:13:23):

And now as a political slap-back,

Asbed (01:13:27):

because he can see that his position has been weakened by the U.S.

Asbed (01:13:33):

itself.

Asbed (01:13:34):

You know, he's slapping back and saying he was never satisfied with the Biden administration.

Hovik (01:13:40):

Right.

Hovik (01:13:41):

And unless you are visiting our show for the first time,

Hovik (01:13:45):

we will classify this as scumbaggery to say the least.

Asbed (01:13:50):

All right. Let me remind everybody tomorrow, September 2nd, Artsakh Independence Day.

Asbed (01:13:56):

We're going to leave it there for today.

Asbed (01:13:57):

That's all for today.

Asbed (01:13:59):

That was our weekend review show recorded on September 1st, 2025.

Asbed (01:14:03):

It's Labor Day in the United States.

Asbed (01:14:06):

We've been talking with Dr.

Asbed (01:14:07):

Benyamin Poghosyan,

Asbed (01:14:08):

who is a senior fellow at APRI Armenia,

Asbed (01:14:12):

a Yerevan-based think tank.

Asbed (01:14:13):

And he's also the chairman of the Center for Political and Economic Strategic Studies.

Hovik (01:14:18):

Folks, if there's one thing you can do to help us, I'm going to just say it outright.

Hovik (01:14:22):

Please go to Apple Podcasts and make sure you're subscribed to us.

Hovik (01:14:26):

If you're already subscribed, then consider rating our show.

Hovik (01:14:29):

I'll just leave it there.

Hovik (01:14:30):

Do I get one wish?

Hovik (01:14:32):

Yes.

Asbed (01:14:34):

Substack.

Asbed (01:14:35):

Subscribe to us on Substack also.

Asbed (01:14:38):

Okay.

Hovik (01:14:39):

You got a choice then.

Asbed (01:14:40):

Thank you. For more information on everyone and all of the links that we will provide in the

Asbed (01:14:45):

show notes,

Asbed (01:14:46):

go there.

Asbed (01:14:47):

It's podcasts.groong.org / episode number.

Asbed (01:14:51):

So this one I think will be 467.

Asbed (01:14:53):

So it'll be podcasts.groong.org / 467 and you'll get there.

Asbed (01:15:00):

I'm Asbed Bedrossian.

Asbed (01:15:01):

I'm in Los Angeles.

Hovik (01:15:04):

And I'm Hovik Manucharyan.

Hovik (01:15:05):

I will keep you in suspense about where I am, but yes, I'm not in Armenia right now.

Asbed (01:15:13):

Talk to you soon.

Hovik (01:15:14):

Bye-bye.

People on this episode

Head Shot

Asbed Bedrossian

Co-host
Head Shot

Hovik Manucharyan

Co-host
Head Shot

Benyamin Poghosyan

Guest

Podcasts we love

Check out these other fine podcasts recommended by us, not an algorithm.