Armenian News Network - Groong: Week In Review Podcast

Lenna Hovanessian – White House Meeting Fallout, Artsakh Erasure, Genocide Dismissal, Azerbaijan Playbook in the US | Ep 470, Sep 7, 2025

• Armenian News Network / Groong • Episode 470

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Conversations on Groong - September 5, 2025

In this episode of Conversations on Groong, we speak with Lenna Hovanessian of the ANC-Western Region about the aftermath of the August 8 White House meeting between Pashinyan, Aliyev, and Trump. The discussion examines what was left out of the agreements, including Artsakh’s right of return, the release of hostages, and cultural heritage protections, while highlighting the dissolution of the OSCE Minsk Group and the waiver of Section 907 for U.S. arms sales to Azerbaijan. We also explore strained diaspora–Armenia relations, Pashinyan’s retreat from Genocide recognition, and Azerbaijan’s lobbying playbook, including the bribery charges against Congressman Henry Cuellar, where the ANCA is pressing for Armenian Americans to be recognized as victims.

Topics:

  •  Reflections on August 8 White House Meeting
  •  Tough Times for DIaspora-Armenia Relations
  •  Challenges to Armenian American Advocacy

Guest: Lenna Hovanessian

Hosts:

Episode 470 | Recorded: September 5, 2025

SHOW NOTES: https://podcasts.groong.org/470

VIDEO: https://youtu.be/ruwhwAhRUN0

#ArmenianNews #Artsakh #ANCA #CaviarDiplomacy #Cuellar


Subscribe and follow us everywhere you are: linktr.ee/groong

Asbed (00:00:06):

Hello, everyone, and welcome to this Conversations on Groong episode.

Asbed (00:00:10):

In a moment, we'll be joined by Lenna Hovanessian,

Asbed (00:00:12):

who is a board member of the ANC Western Region,

Asbed (00:00:15):

to talk about the aftermath of the August 8th meeting in the White House between

Asbed (00:00:19):

Nikol Pashinyan,

Asbed (00:00:20):

Ilham Aliyev,

Asbed (00:00:21):

and Donald Trump,

Asbed (00:00:22):

as it applies to the cause of Artsakh,

Asbed (00:00:24):

the ethnic cleansing of Artsakh Armenians,

Asbed (00:00:26):

and other concerns of the Armenian diaspora.

Asbed (00:00:30):

But first, Hovik has something he wants to talk to you about.

Hovik (00:00:34):

And I believe not just Hovik, but I talk for both of us.

Asbed (00:00:36):

Yes, you do.

Hovik (00:00:37):

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Hovik (00:00:39):

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Hovik (00:00:42):

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Hovik (00:00:46):

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Hovik (00:00:50):

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Hovik (00:00:56):

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Hovik (00:00:59):

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Hovik (00:01:35):

So thank you.

Hovik (00:01:36):

And on with the show.

Asbed (00:01:37):

Lenna Hovanessian, welcome to the Groong podcast.

Lenna (00:01:40):

Thank you.

Lenna (00:01:41):

Glad to be here.

Hovik (00:01:42):

Hello, Lenna.

Hovik (00:01:44):

Welcome to the podcast.

Lenna (00:01:45):

Thank you.

Asbed (00:01:46):

So Lenna,

Asbed (00:01:47):

as this is your first time on our show,

Asbed (00:01:49):

please tell us and our audience a little bit more about yourself,

Asbed (00:01:52):

your activities,

Asbed (00:01:53):

your interests,

Asbed (00:01:54):

and your areas of expertise.

Lenna (00:01:56):

Thank you.

Lenna (00:01:57):

I'm very happy to be here today to discuss some important topics.

Lenna (00:02:00):

My background, I'm an attorney licensed in California and Nevada.

Lenna (00:02:04):

I have a background in litigation and also working for the United States District

Lenna (00:02:09):

Court in the Central District of California.

Lenna (00:02:12):

Most recently,

Lenna (00:02:13):

I've been involved in the last decade in the human rights advocacy and Armenian

Lenna (00:02:18):

cause as ANC Nevada,

Lenna (00:02:21):

leading the ANC Nevada as co-chair and also now on the ANC Western Region Board.

Lenna (00:02:26):

Some of the highlights of the things I've been able to do as far as policy have

Lenna (00:02:30):

been to work on draft and pass Armenian Genocide Education legislation in the state

Lenna (00:02:38):

of Nevada in 2021.

Lenna (00:02:39):

To really build,

Lenna (00:02:42):

I would say,

Lenna (00:02:43):

an advocacy machine within the state and create a large footprint for our growing

Lenna (00:02:47):

Armenian population.

Lenna (00:02:49):

whether it was in government relations,

Lenna (00:02:51):

media,

Lenna (00:02:52):

or through the legal background that I have and expertise to bring that to the

Lenna (00:02:55):

legislation.

Lenna (00:02:57):

And then most recently,

Lenna (00:02:58):

I've been promoted or,

Lenna (00:03:00):

you know,

Lenna (00:03:01):

put on the ANC Western Region Board,

Lenna (00:03:04):

and also through my strong connections with the Nevada congressional delegation,

Lenna (00:03:08):

as well as the state and local,

Lenna (00:03:10):

but specifically to the Nevada congressional delegation with the leadership of

Lenna (00:03:14):

Congresswoman Titus,

Lenna (00:03:17):

had some influence as far as the Armenian Genocide

Lenna (00:03:20):

Education Act in 2024 and now being reintroduced in 2025,

Lenna (00:03:24):

as well as the first ever Azerbaijan Sanctions Review Act,

Lenna (00:03:29):

which was a precedent setting sanctions bill against the Azeri officials for

Lenna (00:03:37):

committing human rights violations and also for naming the Artsakh leadership and

Lenna (00:03:43):

the political prisoners within that bill as a lever.

Lenna (00:03:46):

So that's sort of in a nutshell my background, but we can get deeper into the questions.

Hovik (00:03:54):

Okay, so let's begin with the questions then.

Hovik (00:03:59):

Obviously, the most response-generating issue over the last month has been the August 8th

Hovik (00:04:06):

meeting,

Hovik (00:04:07):

where Nikol Pashinyan and Ilham Aliyev met with Donald Trump at the White House.

Hovik (00:04:13):

And initial documents that they have called or the media has called agreements,

Hovik (00:04:18):

peace agreement and so forth.

Hovik (00:04:19):

But what our guests have referred to as memoranda and just declarations.

Hovik (00:04:23):

We haven't even the details that have been disclosed so far attest to that fact.

Hovik (00:04:28):

Now,

Hovik (00:04:29):

on the show, we have often examined how the proposed corridor that they are envisaging through

Hovik (00:04:35):

Armenia would undermine its sovereignty.

Hovik (00:04:38):

And today we actually want to focus on what was missing from all those discussions

Hovik (00:04:43):

in Washington,

Hovik (00:04:45):

which is any mention of Artsakh,

Hovik (00:04:47):

the rights of Artsakh Armenians who were ethnically cleansed from their homeland in

Hovik (00:04:52):

2020 war and also September 2023.

Hovik (00:04:56):

And instead,

Hovik (00:04:58):

what happened in the White House was that Pashinyan accepted the dissolution of the

Hovik (00:05:02):

OSCE Minsk Group,

Hovik (00:05:04):

effective this month,

Hovik (00:05:05):

effective September 1st.

Hovik (00:05:07):

And at the same time,

Hovik (00:05:09):

Aliyev secured from Trump a waiver of Section 907,

Hovik (00:05:13):

which opens the door to arms sales or restarting arms sales to Azerbaijan.

Hovik (00:05:19):

So we have deep concerns about this.

Hovik (00:05:22):

I know the ANCA has voiced concerns and the ANCA Western Region as well.

Hovik (00:05:28):

How are you viewing the outcome of the August 8th meeting so far?

Hovik (00:05:32):

What was the ANC's reaction to Pashinyan's visit to the White House?

Lenna (00:05:37):

Well, I can speak to,

Lenna (00:05:38):

of course,

Lenna (00:05:39):

the ANC reaction,

Lenna (00:05:40):

my personal reaction,

Lenna (00:05:41):

having worked in Armenian advocacy for the last decade and really working hard to

Lenna (00:05:47):

get our community represented through U.S.

Lenna (00:05:51):

national policy for the benefit of Armenia and Armenian causes and human rights, of course.

Lenna (00:05:57):

So I would say that this 17-point declaration that was initialed by both Pashinyan,

Lenna (00:06:04):

Prime Minister Pashinyan and Aliyev,

Lenna (00:06:08):

has many glaring and remarkable omissions.

Lenna (00:06:12):

And I've had a chance to look deeper into the implementation of the route,

Lenna (00:06:18):

but let's go to what's missing.

Lenna (00:06:21):

And what's missing in this, there are glaring omissions.

Lenna (00:06:24):

So let's start with, there is no mention

Lenna (00:06:27):

No mention of any of the rights of the Artsakhtsi, Nagorno-Karabakh.

Lenna (00:06:31):

There's no mention of the right of return.

Lenna (00:06:34):

There is no mention about the release of hostages.

Lenna (00:06:38):

There's nothing about the preservation of cultural heritage.

Lenna (00:06:41):

This is the elephant in the room.

Lenna (00:06:43):

And what happens is that this is a game changer, yes, but what it does is, in effect, it erases

Lenna (00:06:51):

through once it is signed,

Lenna (00:06:54):

it has the impact of erasing the rights of the Armenians of Artsakh,

Lenna (00:07:00):

the right of return.

Lenna (00:07:01):

These are things that Armenians have fought for.

Lenna (00:07:03):

We've been advocating for in the United States internationally.

Lenna (00:07:07):

The Swiss parliament has passed legislation about the right of return.

Lenna (00:07:12):

And what it does is it undermines

Lenna (00:07:14):

years and years of advocacy and really damages the right of return for the Artsakh Armenians.

Lenna (00:07:22):

Beyond that,

Lenna (00:07:24):

it doesn't protect the cultural heritage,

Lenna (00:07:26):

the priceless treasures of Christian Armenian heritage that go back to the

Lenna (00:07:31):

fourth, fifth century,

Lenna (00:07:33):

you know,

Lenna (00:07:34):

that our early Christendom,

Lenna (00:07:35):

this is the cradle of Christianity.

Lenna (00:07:38):

Furthermore,

Lenna (00:07:39):

I think one of the most obvious things that could have been done,

Lenna (00:07:43):

and this should have been a precondition.

Lenna (00:07:46):

There should have been a non-starter

Lenna (00:07:48):

without the specific mention of release of Armenian hostages, Artsakh leaders.

Lenna (00:07:55):

We see other countries that are in the Middle East advocating for their hostages.

Lenna (00:07:59):

Not one word.

Lenna (00:08:01):

And I think from a negotiating standpoint,

Lenna (00:08:04):

I wasn't in the room,

Lenna (00:08:05):

obviously,

Lenna (00:08:06):

but when you're negotiating a deal of this level,

Lenna (00:08:09):

not to have,

Lenna (00:08:10):

at least symbolically,

Lenna (00:08:11):

to show some level of reciprocity,

Lenna (00:08:15):

the release of hostages is quite appalling.

Lenna (00:08:18):

appalling for our community.

Lenna (00:08:21):

I mean, these Artsakh leaders,

Lenna (00:08:22):

as we all know,

Lenna (00:08:23):

are being subject to sham trials and being paraded in front of the Armenian

Lenna (00:08:27):

community globally.

Lenna (00:08:29):

That is a humiliation for all of us.

Lenna (00:08:31):

And not to have that as a precondition, as a non-starter, is really a big problem.

Asbed (00:08:37):

You know,

Asbed (00:08:38):

Lenna, one thing that was interesting,

Asbed (00:08:40):

we saw some video where President Trump actually offered Pashinyan to get the 23

Asbed (00:08:46):

Christian leaders back,

Asbed (00:08:47):

I think,

Asbed (00:08:48):

or something like that.

Asbed (00:08:49):

And Pashinyan was a deer in the headlights, did not know how to respond.

Asbed (00:08:54):

It took him a moment to recover from that unexpected thing and basically said he

Asbed (00:08:58):

didn't want that.

Asbed (00:08:59):

He didn't want that.

Hovik (00:09:00):

He also said, yeah, he didn't want that written down.

Hovik (00:09:03):

In the agreement, yeah.

Hovik (00:09:05):

So that was shocking to all of us.

Lenna (00:09:07):

Right.

Lenna (00:09:08):

He said that it would complicate matters, that Artsakh issues are a threat to national security.

Lenna (00:09:14):

But if you're not negotiating for your most patriotic leaders,

Lenna (00:09:17):

people like Ruben Vardanyan,

Lenna (00:09:19):

who had really had no benefit to putting himself in Artsakh,

Lenna (00:09:25):

He's given so much to Armenia through the IDEA Foundation,

Lenna (00:09:28):

through so many initiatives in Artsakh and Armenia,

Lenna (00:09:33):

he went and put himself at risk in order to fight as a national hero.

Lenna (00:09:37):

And ANCA Western Region awarded him as a national hero in our gala last year.

Lenna (00:09:43):

But for the patriots,

Lenna (00:09:45):

there is actually no leverage.

Lenna (00:09:50):

This was basically the major leverage that we had.

Lenna (00:09:52):

I mean, we hear over and over again, Armenia has nothing to offer, but guess what?

Lenna (00:09:57):

We had the Panama Canal.

Lenna (00:09:59):

This was our quote-unquote Panama Canal, a major route through Syunik.

Lenna (00:10:04):

Turkey and Azerbaijan have been wanting this for 30 years,

Lenna (00:10:07):

definitely for the last decade,

Lenna (00:10:09):

labeling it the Zangezur Corridor.

Lenna (00:10:12):

And if you had this major lever of power,

Lenna (00:10:15):

if you did not negotiate at this moment the most critical and important facts,

Lenna (00:10:21):

I would even say that this would have been a major win for Pashinyan if he could

Lenna (00:10:25):

have gotten those hostages released.

Lenna (00:10:28):

It would have been a major political win.

Lenna (00:10:30):

And we all know that, you know, who won from this deal.

Lenna (00:10:34):

Well, before I go to that,

Lenna (00:10:35):

I'm going to also mention there's other issues that are problematic within this

Lenna (00:10:39):

peace agreement or peace deal or declaration.

Lenna (00:10:43):

I would say that the

Lenna (00:10:45):

having to discard or to get rid of all the International Court of Justice,

Lenna (00:10:51):

European Court of Human Rights cases.

Lenna (00:10:54):

I mean, this is basically another lever of power.

Lenna (00:10:57):

So what I'm seeing here,

Lenna (00:10:59):

if we look at just the face of it,

Lenna (00:11:01):

is that you're starting to defang or take away any levers of little power that

Lenna (00:11:08):

Armenia has.

Lenna (00:11:09):

The European Court of Human Rights cases,

Lenna (00:11:11):

the ICJ cases that were very instrumental to my advocacy and ANCA's advocacy in

Lenna (00:11:19):

2023 during the blockade in February and July.

Lenna (00:11:22):

These cases are major cases that gave us some count of accountability on the

Lenna (00:11:29):

international platforms to hold Azerbaijan accountable.

Lenna (00:11:34):

Now, those cases are going to be gone,

Lenna (00:11:36):

diminished, dismissed,

Lenna (00:11:37):

and erase war crimes,

Lenna (00:11:42):

major cases through CERD,

Lenna (00:11:45):

which is for elimination of racial bias and hate that was proudly on display.

Lenna (00:11:53):

And all of us saw the torture videos of POWs,

Lenna (00:11:58):

civilians,

Lenna (00:11:59):

soldiers, executions,

Lenna (00:12:01):

executions of female soldiers,

Lenna (00:12:03):

all of those things,

Lenna (00:12:04):

wiped clean,

Lenna (00:12:05):

war crimes.

Lenna (00:12:06):

I mean, how can that not be an insult to just equality, reciprocity?

Lenna (00:12:12):

There's none of that, unfortunately.

Asbed (00:12:15):

Lenna,

Asbed (00:12:16):

do you think that Pashinyan even has the right to give up on these global cases for

Asbed (00:12:21):

the Armenian nation?

Lenna (00:12:23):

Well, I was thinking about that.

Lenna (00:12:24):

I think that the ones that are brought through the ICJ,

Lenna (00:12:27):

which were brought by the Armenian government,

Lenna (00:12:30):

those there is standing,

Lenna (00:12:32):

I would say, in order to bring that case,

Lenna (00:12:34):

I would say possibly yes.

Lenna (00:12:37):

However, on the European Court of Human Rights cases,

Lenna (00:12:39):

which are brought by civilians through,

Lenna (00:12:42):

I know, Cyrano Sahakyan and other attorneys that were brought,

Lenna (00:12:45):

those are individual cases.

Lenna (00:12:47):

So I would question the

Lenna (00:12:48):

whether there is standing or authority to get those cases dismissed.

Lenna (00:12:52):

Obviously, other measures could be used to pressure for that to happen.

Asbed (00:12:56):

And also genocide doesn't have a statute of limitations as far as I know.

Asbed (00:13:00):

So Artsakh being a case of genocide, ethnic cleansing is a nice Western way of saying genocide.

Asbed (00:13:08):

Is this a case that you can just dismiss and say, you know, it didn't happen?

Lenna (00:13:12):

Right.

Lenna (00:13:13):

Absolutely.

Lenna (00:13:14):

You know, I think the other thing that's troubling to me besides the legal cases and what you

Lenna (00:13:19):

mentioned earlier was Section 907 of the Freedom Support Act,

Lenna (00:13:23):

because,

Lenna (00:13:24):

you know, our our advocacy,

Lenna (00:13:26):

our community hangs on to any lever of power that we have in this situation where

Lenna (00:13:30):

Armenia is really on its back foot after all the things that happened,

Lenna (00:13:34):

the 44 day war.

Lenna (00:13:36):

on Artsakh, the blockade, the ethnic cleansing, genocide of Artsakh.

Lenna (00:13:41):

Yes,

Lenna (00:13:42):

Armenia is not in a powerful position,

Lenna (00:13:44):

but to take away and suspend section 907 of the Freedom Support Act,

Lenna (00:13:49):

that was an act,

Lenna (00:13:51):

a bill that was fought for and had teeth

Lenna (00:13:55):

It had teeth.

Lenna (00:13:56):

It was in place since the early 90s.

Lenna (00:13:59):

Of course, it was waived 10 years, almost 10 years after that, subsequently.

Lenna (00:14:05):

But then it was enforced.

Lenna (00:14:07):

That section was enforced for the last three years.

Lenna (00:14:10):

And when you look at some of the footage of the

Lenna (00:14:14):

the agreement in, you know, the footage in Washington, D.C.

Lenna (00:14:18):

from the recent August 8th meeting,

Lenna (00:14:21):

you can see how much delight Aliyev shows when he knows that,

Lenna (00:14:26):

he says,

Lenna (00:14:27):

for 20,

Lenna (00:14:28):

over 20 years,

Lenna (00:14:29):

we've not been able to engage in,

Lenna (00:14:31):

you know, military aid through the United States.

Lenna (00:14:35):

And he sees that as a major win.

Lenna (00:14:38):

Well, if you're giving that major win

Lenna (00:14:41):

to Azerbaijan, to Aliyev, what are you getting in return?

Lenna (00:14:44):

And I think that is the real big question here is what is Armenia,

Lenna (00:14:50):

not the prime minister getting in return?

Lenna (00:14:52):

We know that the prime minister is going into an election in 2026.

Lenna (00:14:57):

This is a feather in his cap, ostensibly, but it really questions whether we're just rebranding

Lenna (00:15:05):

the Zangezur Corridor as trip and in effect having the same

Lenna (00:15:12):

Risks, major risks, and concessions.

Asbed (00:15:15):

You are spot on.

Asbed (00:15:17):

And the analysts that we've talked to have actually said that there's nothing here

Asbed (00:15:21):

for the Armenians.

Asbed (00:15:23):

There's almost everything here that Azerbaijan has demanded.

Asbed (00:15:26):

And yeah, this is why, by the way, we don't call it negotiations on this show.

Asbed (00:15:33):

We call it a managed capitulation is what's going on.

Lenna (00:15:36):

Absolutely. And I would even take it a step further.

Lenna (00:15:38):

I would say this is a foreign policy of appeasement.

Lenna (00:15:40):

It's a foreign policy of appeasement.

Lenna (00:15:42):

Let's not mask it any other way.

Lenna (00:15:44):

It's like, you know, you give away Artsakh, it's not enough.

Lenna (00:15:47):

And if you notice, now the goalposts are being moved.

Lenna (00:15:50):

It's being moved,

Lenna (00:15:52):

you know, instead of going back and holding them accountable for something that a war crimes

Lenna (00:15:56):

and genocide that has already occurred as a negotiation,

Lenna (00:15:59):

the anchoring principle here comes at play.

Lenna (00:16:02):

I mean, Of course, we're dealing with President Trump, who's about the deal, right?

Lenna (00:16:07):

It's about the deal.

Lenna (00:16:08):

And so President Trump has said a bad deal, no deal, is better than a bad deal.

Lenna (00:16:15):

In this case,

Lenna (00:16:16):

I think what happened with this Pashinyan and his entourage is they wanted any deal

Lenna (00:16:22):

is better than no deal.

Lenna (00:16:23):

So they could take that home.

Lenna (00:16:25):

And I would say that the details of this declaration are troubling.

Lenna (00:16:31):

But I will... Just to be fair,

Lenna (00:16:32):

I do want to talk because I've listened to many interviews and read a lot of

Lenna (00:16:37):

articles.

Lenna (00:16:38):

And I wanted to be fair in my assessment of what could be the game for Armenia.

Lenna (00:16:44):

And I want to put them out there because, you know, I want to be objective.

Lenna (00:16:48):

I really want to be positive and objective.

Lenna (00:16:50):

But I'll say there are two things that I observed that could be the upside of this.

Lenna (00:16:55):

One would be that they bought time.

Lenna (00:16:58):

time was bought against you know being attacked apparently the actual deal is not

Lenna (00:17:02):

going into effect until 2028 that's a lot of years you buy time there's a

Lenna (00:17:08):

deterrence effect let's say okay but the troubling response to that is that when

Lenna (00:17:15):

you look at the defense spending and the announcement of the defense spending

Lenna (00:17:20):

Aliyev has increased his defense spending.

Lenna (00:17:23):

Now it's up to $5 billion, and he increased it by, I think, $750 million.

Lenna (00:17:28):

And you see an announcement by Prime Minister Pashinyan saying that there will be

Lenna (00:17:33):

no increase in defense spending.

Lenna (00:17:35):

So you bought the time.

Lenna (00:17:37):

Why are you not beefing up your defense spending?

Lenna (00:17:39):

Because that's what you're supposed to do with the time, aren't you, to defend the country.

Lenna (00:17:44):

So that's one aspect of that.

Hovik (00:17:46):

Yeah, yeah.

Hovik (00:17:48):

Lenna, I also want to ask you about what you're seeing.

Hovik (00:17:54):

We've heard Tom Barrack mention 99-year lease.

Hovik (00:18:00):

Trump has been talking about 99-year lease.

Hovik (00:18:02):

Pashinyan and his team are saying there is no such thing as a lease and it's not for 99 years.

Hovik (00:18:10):

They didn't say it's not for 99 years.

Hovik (00:18:13):

They've been very vague about it.

Hovik (00:18:15):

and when the actual memoranda were publicized,

Hovik (00:18:19):

there was nothing about neither the number of years or the specific details of

Hovik (00:18:28):

whether it's a corridor or not.

Hovik (00:18:30):

So how would you address those?

Hovik (00:18:35):

We get criticized because we say that this is a 99-year lease, and to be honest,

Hovik (00:18:41):

There's nothing publicized, but that doesn't stop Trump from using the 99-year link.

Hovik (00:18:50):

So how do we interpret what actually happened?

Hovik (00:18:54):

Are there some other agreements that we're not privy to?

Lenna (00:18:58):

That's a great question.

Lenna (00:18:59):

I think the other troubling aspect of this deal is that there's a lot of ambiguity,

Lenna (00:19:05):

a lot of details that are not worked out that don't work in Armenia's favor.

Lenna (00:19:10):

And I would say,

Lenna (00:19:11):

too, that I've heard a lot of rhetoric and I would say maybe propaganda saying that this

Lenna (00:19:17):

deal trip specifically offers some type of security guarantees to Armenia.

Lenna (00:19:24):

There is nothing in the letter of that document,

Lenna (00:19:27):

that declaration that talks about any kind of military and security guarantees,

Lenna (00:19:32):

period.

Lenna (00:19:33):

There's none of that.

Hovik (00:19:34):

So to promote that... Isn't Trump's phone number a good enough security guarantee?

Lenna (00:19:39):

Yeah, seriously.

Hovik (00:19:39):

When you're being attacked?

Lenna (00:19:41):

Right. Well, I mean...

Hovik (00:19:42):

It's sort of similar to when Armenians,

Hovik (00:19:44):

when Azerbaijan took over the Goris-Kapan highway,

Hovik (00:19:49):

the Armenian National Security Service was passing around a phone number saying,

Hovik (00:19:53):

hey, if you ever get stopped by Azerbaijanis or if you get kidnapped,

Hovik (00:19:57):

this is a number to call.

Hovik (00:19:58):

But...

Asbed (00:19:59):

If they ever kill you, call us.

Lenna (00:20:01):

Yes, exactly.

Lenna (00:20:02):

Well, look, we don't have the luxury of wishful thinking.

Lenna (00:20:07):

And I like to be optimistic in general when it comes to, you know, we want peace.

Lenna (00:20:11):

Armenians want peace.

Lenna (00:20:12):

Like, let's not, you know, that is obviously our objective here.

Lenna (00:20:16):

And so I'm not saying that attempts towards peace are not worthy,

Lenna (00:20:21):

honorable, but there has to be some type of balance.

Lenna (00:20:24):

And if there's not balance, there has to be a gain.

Lenna (00:20:27):

And as I said, if you're giving...

Lenna (00:20:29):

a Panama Canal type of access route that has been dreamt of.

Lenna (00:20:35):

And it is a game changer.

Lenna (00:20:36):

And you're inserting the United States into Syunik.

Lenna (00:20:39):

And, you know, CUNIC is a hot button, important thing

Lenna (00:20:45):

It is our major transit route from Iran and where we get a lot of our,

Lenna (00:20:52):

it is a major security compromise.

Lenna (00:20:55):

And although Armenia and,

Lenna (00:20:58):

I'm sorry, Pashinyan and this,

Lenna (00:21:00):

you know, it's being promoted as only a commercial route.

Lenna (00:21:04):

you know, a commercial joint venture with the United States with a lot of the details left out.

Lenna (00:21:11):

What's important is that it's at a very critical point.

Lenna (00:21:14):

And if we've ever seen it before in other aspects, whenever you give access and opportunity,

Lenna (00:21:21):

to somebody who's going through a transport corridor like the Lachin corridor,

Lenna (00:21:26):

what did Azerbaijan do?

Lenna (00:21:28):

They used it as a choking point and they basically created a blockade.

Lenna (00:21:32):

And so any type of risk, there's access and opportunity for that risk.

Lenna (00:21:37):

Now,

Lenna (00:21:38):

speaking about the joint venture between the United States and Armenia in creating,

Lenna (00:21:42):

building and managing

Lenna (00:21:45):

The trip route, major issues of concern.

Lenna (00:21:48):

I mean, there's obviously so many details that are left out who is going to be the third

Lenna (00:21:52):

party contractor or operator.

Lenna (00:21:54):

I mean, can't we see this is sort of like an opportunity for a Trojan horse.

Lenna (00:21:59):

I mean, this is a Trojan horse.

Lenna (00:22:01):

Because you don't have control over the third party.

Lenna (00:22:05):

Or they say, OK, Armenia has a say over the third party manager or controller.

Lenna (00:22:11):

But at the same time,

Lenna (00:22:13):

Azerbaijan is already saying,

Lenna (00:22:14):

we don't want to interface with any Armenia security or border people at Armenia's

Lenna (00:22:21):

border.

Lenna (00:22:22):

They demanded that.

Hovik (00:22:24):

That is basically the whole thing where Azerbaijan,

Hovik (00:22:27):

which has been getting so far everything at once,

Hovik (00:22:30):

is saying that you can be sure that we will never see another Armenian.

Hovik (00:22:34):

Armenian officials are being vague about it.

Hovik (00:22:36):

Like even after this trip signing,

Hovik (00:22:40):

Pashinyan,

Hovik (00:22:41):

I think he was asked once,

Hovik (00:22:43):

and Arad Mirzoyan was asked twice,

Hovik (00:22:46):

are the Azerbaijanis going to be inspected?

Hovik (00:22:48):

Are we going to be inspecting Azerbaijani passports?

Hovik (00:22:51):

And each time there is a vague answer,

Hovik (00:22:53):

essentially a non-answer,

Hovik (00:22:56):

but Aliyev at the same time continues to insist that Azerbaijanis will not see an

Hovik (00:23:00):

Armenian face.

Hovik (00:23:02):

So how does that work?

Hovik (00:23:03):

How do you how do you defend that type of a deal?

Hovik (00:23:07):

I'm not sure.

Lenna (00:23:08):

Right. This is supposed to be a commercial transit corridor, right?

Lenna (00:23:11):

That's what the obvious problem here is the transportation of weapons or other

Lenna (00:23:18):

things that could,

Lenna (00:23:19):

you know,

Lenna (00:23:20):

things that could happen along the route,

Lenna (00:23:23):

you know, whether it's spying by a third party operator,

Lenna (00:23:26):

because this is again,

Lenna (00:23:27):

we're talking about a very sensitive border.

Lenna (00:23:30):

to the south of, you know, with Iran.

Lenna (00:23:32):

And there are all kinds of geopolitical interests in order to,

Lenna (00:23:36):

you know, to opportunities for that to happen.

Lenna (00:23:39):

And for Armenia to be used as a geopolitical hot point is really,

Lenna (00:23:44):

we already have enough problems.

Lenna (00:23:46):

And so I would say the Trojan horse analogy to me is very obvious.

Lenna (00:23:51):

The only thing I have read about,

Lenna (00:23:53):

you know, from those who say that they were in the room negotiating is that there's some,

Lenna (00:24:00):

There's a setup or a proposed setup of a front office,

Lenna (00:24:04):

back office,

Lenna (00:24:05):

where the third party operator would be the front office.

Lenna (00:24:10):

So there would be no interfacing with Azeri and Armenian border control,

Lenna (00:24:14):

and that the Armenian border control agents would be in the back office.

Lenna (00:24:19):

So we're already on our own sovereign territory being told how we're going to be

Lenna (00:24:25):

running our customs and border security.

Hovik (00:24:29):

Let's say there's an escalation.

Hovik (00:24:30):

What does that mean?

Hovik (00:24:31):

So those are like, you know, eventually, you know, people with guns have to be involved.

Hovik (00:24:37):

So how do we anyway?

Hovik (00:24:39):

I think I appreciate.

Hovik (00:24:41):

Yeah, I agree.

Lenna (00:24:42):

And also I'll add one other thing is that part of this deal also requires that

Lenna (00:24:47):

there be no international of not forces,

Lenna (00:24:51):

but the European observers that were put along the Armenian Azeri border were

Lenna (00:24:56):

really the only

Lenna (00:24:59):

I guess international eyes that we're keeping that border safe.

Lenna (00:25:02):

And we keep hearing about all the shootings that are happening into the villages

Lenna (00:25:06):

that are along that border.

Lenna (00:25:08):

That's a reality.

Lenna (00:25:09):

And that border is getting closer and closer.

Lenna (00:25:12):

We also know that there are 200 square kilometers of sovereign Armenia that are

Lenna (00:25:17):

currently being occupied.

Lenna (00:25:19):

by Azeri forces.

Lenna (00:25:20):

And that is another problem that wasn't addressed as part of this, you know, peace declaration.

Lenna (00:25:27):

I read somewhere that those are things that will become figured out as the deal is

Lenna (00:25:33):

becoming finalized.

Lenna (00:25:34):

But again, those should be non-starters that are the hostages and

Lenna (00:25:41):

current invasions are not things that you negotiate when you've lost your lever of

Lenna (00:25:45):

power in a negotiation.

Lenna (00:25:47):

You negotiate that from the beginning,

Lenna (00:25:49):

and it has to be a non-starter unless you get rid of those very important current

Lenna (00:25:55):

invasions that are going on in the country.

Asbed (00:25:57):

Pashinyan said they'll deal with that in the Border Commission process,

Asbed (00:26:02):

and yet we know that those things can take 30 years,

Asbed (00:26:05):

40 years, 50 years,

Asbed (00:26:06):

and by then it'll be a fait accompli.

Lenna (00:26:09):

Absolutely.

Lenna (00:26:10):

It's very problematic.

Hovik (00:26:11):

I spent most of my young adulthood in the United States.

Hovik (00:26:16):

And in fact, the first time that I got exposed to the issue of Artsakh was desperately looking

Hovik (00:26:21):

for news about Artsakh and about the war in the 1990s.

Hovik (00:26:25):

And that's how I got hooked into issues about Armenian-American advocacy.

Hovik (00:26:32):

And for many of us,

Hovik (00:26:34):

the issue of Artsakh has been the defining moment of our identity or defining

Hovik (00:26:38):

component,

Hovik (00:26:39):

foundation of our identity.

Hovik (00:26:41):

And we have been advocating for the cause of Artsakh for over 35 years.

Hovik (00:26:46):

And it has been hand in hand with the Republic of Armenia.

Hovik (00:26:51):

And even during periods when,

Hovik (00:26:54):

for instance,

Hovik (00:26:55):

during Levon Ter-Petrosyan's rule,

Hovik (00:26:57):

many Armenian Americans that were affiliated with a certain party were being

Hovik (00:27:03):

persecuted,

Hovik (00:27:04):

ANCA and Armenian Americans in general were still advocating for Artsakh.

Hovik (00:27:10):

But now Pashinyan says that anything having to do with Artsakh is a security threat

Hovik (00:27:14):

to Armenia,

Hovik (00:27:15):

and he wants to essentially take Armenia out of that equation.

Hovik (00:27:21):

Do you agree and what are the reasons behind this glaring departure from a united

Hovik (00:27:25):

stance purpose?

Hovik (00:27:28):

What can be gained from this by not being united?

Lenna (00:27:32):

Well, let me,

Lenna (00:27:33):

the Artsakh issue,

Lenna (00:27:34):

as you know,

Lenna (00:27:35):

I, you know,

Lenna (00:27:36):

we've been advocating for that in the ANC,

Lenna (00:27:38):

as I, as you said,

Lenna (00:27:39):

you know, for the, I've been most active in the last 10 years here in Nevada,

Lenna (00:27:43):

and it has been a defining moment.

Lenna (00:27:45):

It has been a painful moment of loss,

Lenna (00:27:48):

you know,

Lenna (00:27:49):

having to endure another genocide,

Lenna (00:27:52):

psychologically,

Lenna (00:27:53):

and also physically,

Lenna (00:27:54):

the loss of all of the people,

Lenna (00:27:56):

the heritage,

Lenna (00:27:57):

the ethnic cleansing.

Lenna (00:27:58):

And so,

Lenna (00:27:59):

Yes, our community in the diaspora has been dealing with that.

Lenna (00:28:03):

But I will say that, you know, ANCA has been at the front line of fighting for these issues.

Lenna (00:28:10):

And if, you know,

Lenna (00:28:11):

looking at our current legislation,

Lenna (00:28:13):

despite the declaration and the undermining or erasure,

Lenna (00:28:19):

potential erasure of the Artsakh issues,

Lenna (00:28:22):

ANCA and myself,

Lenna (00:28:24):

we continue to fight for those issues even in the current legislation through the

Lenna (00:28:29):

NDAA amendments.

Lenna (00:28:32):

We have a lot of support from our legislators.

Lenna (00:28:35):

We had a letter that was 87 members of Congress wrote a letter about the right of

Lenna (00:28:42):

return to Secretary of State Rubio.

Lenna (00:28:45):

And so we continue our advocacy in the United States, especially here with the ANCA.

Lenna (00:28:52):

The NDAA requirements,

Lenna (00:28:54):

I'm sorry, amendments address the issue of the right of return,

Lenna (00:28:58):

the release of hostages,

Lenna (00:29:00):

sanctions.

Lenna (00:29:01):

These are championed by our very supportive members of Congress,

Lenna (00:29:07):

including Senator Schiff,

Lenna (00:29:09):

Bilirakis,

Lenna (00:29:10):

Congresswoman Bilirakis,

Lenna (00:29:11):

and also Congresswoman Titus here from Nevada.

Lenna (00:29:15):

So we have champions of our cause.

Lenna (00:29:18):

The issue is not done for us.

Lenna (00:29:20):

the current administration in Armenia may see it that way and obviously it creates

Lenna (00:29:27):

problematic issues for us down the line when these issues aren't addressed

Lenna (00:29:32):

furthermore it does really create i don't know if this truly will create peace and

Lenna (00:29:37):

we all want peace but a peace that is not based on any type of justice or

Lenna (00:29:42):

reciprocity or any type of acknowledgement

Lenna (00:29:45):

is very problematic and arguably not a really durable piece.

Lenna (00:29:50):

It basically rewards aggression,

Lenna (00:29:54):

war crimes,

Lenna (00:29:55):

genocide, and it sets a very dangerous precedent of things to come from an international

Lenna (00:30:00):

standpoint.

Lenna (00:30:01):

But obviously,

Lenna (00:30:02):

we're living in a world right now where these international rights aren't being

Lenna (00:30:07):

held up.

Lenna (00:30:08):

And it is a troubling time for the world in general.

Lenna (00:30:11):

But I think as Armenian Americans, we continue with this plight and for the advocacy.

Lenna (00:30:17):

And the more we can create legislation and strength from our end to advocate for

Lenna (00:30:23):

these things, that's all that we can do.

Hovik (00:30:25):

And also,

Hovik (00:30:26):

in the past week,

Hovik (00:30:27):

Nikol Pashirin has publicly said that Artsakhs should forget their homes,

Hovik (00:30:31):

their rights,

Hovik (00:30:32):

and move on.

Hovik (00:30:33):

Because he thinks that the Artsakh cause, he now thinks that it's a mistake.

Hovik (00:30:39):

He didn't think that in 2018,

Hovik (00:30:41):

when he was saying Artsakh is Armenian,

Hovik (00:30:42):

and he was acting more nationalistic than some of the most nationalistic people I

Hovik (00:30:49):

know.

Hovik (00:30:50):

But he said he won't allow the issue to ever come back.

Hovik (00:30:55):

So is it possible to advocate for Artsakh when the Armenian government itself

Hovik (00:30:59):

undermines diaspora's efforts?

Hovik (00:31:02):

Many of these champions that you mentioned will eventually have to deal with an

Hovik (00:31:07):

ambassador of Armenia to the United States who says,

Hovik (00:31:10):

please don't bring up that issue.

Lenna (00:31:14):

I agree with you.

Lenna (00:31:15):

It's created a problematic stance for us as advocates.

Lenna (00:31:22):

But I would say that no government is there forever.

Lenna (00:31:26):

And if you let the issue die, then...

Lenna (00:31:31):

then it will die and you have to continue.

Lenna (00:31:33):

Just like we fought for recognition of the Armenian genocide,

Lenna (00:31:36):

you can argue that it didn't do anything.

Lenna (00:31:39):

I would say that it did,

Lenna (00:31:42):

for those of us who are grandkids,

Lenna (00:31:44):

grandchildren of Armenian genocide survivors,

Lenna (00:31:46):

if it gave us nothing,

Lenna (00:31:48):

it gave us a sense of justice.

Lenna (00:31:50):

Of course, there's the issue of reparations and all of that.

Lenna (00:31:53):

And also that's an issue that stands for the Artsakhsis.

Lenna (00:31:56):

What about the issue of reparations?

Lenna (00:31:58):

If you're taking people's personal land

Lenna (00:32:00):

And also,

Lenna (00:32:01):

you know, all of those years of heritage,

Lenna (00:32:04):

there needs to be some kind of accounting for all of that.

Lenna (00:32:08):

So I would say that, is it problematic?

Lenna (00:32:10):

Yes.

Lenna (00:32:11):

I would say also ANC is probably the only,

Lenna (00:32:14):

except for individuals,

Lenna (00:32:15):

of course, that,

Lenna (00:32:16):

you know,

Lenna (00:32:17):

are strong advocates and very patriotic towards Armenia.

Lenna (00:32:22):

We still continue to fight for it.

Lenna (00:32:23):

Nothing lasts forever.

Lenna (00:32:25):

This is a fight that goes on for the long haul.

Lenna (00:32:28):

And you just have to continue because it's about persistence.

Lenna (00:32:31):

And I would even say pointing to other nationalities around the world,

Lenna (00:32:36):

other countries,

Lenna (00:32:37):

I would say that through long term persistence,

Lenna (00:32:40):

passing on the message to next generations,

Lenna (00:32:42):

that's how you eventually get it done.

Lenna (00:32:44):

When we give up our

Lenna (00:32:46):

advocacy,

Lenna (00:32:47):

our fight,

Lenna (00:32:48):

the knowledge and appreciation for our own history,

Lenna (00:32:51):

that is the first place where we get demoralized and we lose.

Lenna (00:32:54):

And I don't know if that is the objective of this government.

Lenna (00:32:57):

I can't read that.

Lenna (00:32:59):

But from what I see from the teardown of institutions like the church to opposition

Lenna (00:33:05):

to the advocacy for Artsakh,

Lenna (00:33:08):

When you kill the issue at this point, you really diminish it for future generations.

Lenna (00:33:13):

I see this as a long-term advocacy, and we must persist.

Asbed (00:33:19):

Lenna,

Asbed (00:33:20):

you mentioned the Armenian genocide,

Asbed (00:33:22):

which is itself not on safe grounds,

Asbed (00:33:24):

it appears,

Asbed (00:33:25):

because in the past year,

Asbed (00:33:26):

Pashinyan and his foreign minister,

Asbed (00:33:28):

Aragats Mirzoyan,

Asbed (00:33:30):

have both stated...

Hovik (00:33:32):

Asbed, stop misnaming him.

Hovik (00:33:34):

It's Arabat Mirzoyan.

Asbed (00:33:37):

But it was Pashinyan who said that we should not say Ararat anymore and just say

Asbed (00:33:41):

Aragats, right?

Hovik (00:33:44):

For the foreign minister's name, he specifically said that we should use Agri Dagh.

Hovik (00:33:50):

Mirzoyan.

Hovik (00:33:51):

Sorry, that's a...

Hovik (00:33:53):

Let's ask him,

Hovik (00:33:54):

you know, if you know anyone,

Hovik (00:33:55):

you know,

Hovik (00:33:56):

if you know the foreign minister of Armenia,

Hovik (00:33:59):

you know, ask him what he wants us to call him.

Hovik (00:34:01):

Maybe.

Asbed (00:34:02):

All right.

Asbed (00:34:03):

We'll just say that Pashinyan and Mirzoyan have both stated that Armenia will not

Asbed (00:34:08):

prioritize

Asbed (00:34:09):

recognition of the Armenian genocide.

Asbed (00:34:11):

And this was just this past week in reaction to Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin

Asbed (00:34:15):

Netanyahu,

Asbed (00:34:16):

who had a personal recognizing of the Armenian genocide on a US podcast.

Asbed (00:34:21):

Pashinyan said that Armenia has not gained anything from international recognition

Asbed (00:34:26):

of the genocide. And so it's not in the interest of Armenia to pursue this.

Asbed (00:34:32):

Lenna, I know you are an outspoken advocate of the recognition of the Armenian genocide,

Asbed (00:34:37):

as am I,

Asbed (00:34:38):

as is Hovik and every other Armenian that we know.

Asbed (00:34:42):

What was your reaction to Pashinyan's stance towards the genocide and how do you explain it?

Lenna (00:34:48):

Well, I don't know if I can explain it.

Lenna (00:34:51):

It's obviously very disappointing.

Lenna (00:34:54):

It does create a feeling of, what should I say, hurt within the diaspora.

Lenna (00:35:01):

And I think that he has...

Lenna (00:35:03):

made statements that he talks about only representing Armenia.

Lenna (00:35:08):

It's the Armenia as it is, not Armenia before, not the current Armenia.

Lenna (00:35:13):

And I've heard that refrain.

Lenna (00:35:15):

We've all heard that refrain.

Lenna (00:35:17):

And I think it's very myopic because if you look at other countries like Israel and

Lenna (00:35:26):

others that have a strong diaspora,

Lenna (00:35:29):

you realize that the diaspora is your power, is part of your power.

Lenna (00:35:35):

And to alienate or to disparage the work of,

Lenna (00:35:42):

you know,

Lenna (00:35:43):

Armenians globally who've been fighting for recognition and have achieved that,

Lenna (00:35:48):

look, nothing would ever change my feelings for Armenia.

Lenna (00:35:51):

Nothing would change that.

Lenna (00:35:52):

Armenia is, you know,

Lenna (00:35:54):

For me, it's beyond any leader, but I think it's problematic.

Lenna (00:35:58):

And whether his objective is to,

Lenna (00:36:01):

you know, advance the crossroads of peace to get along with Turkey,

Lenna (00:36:05):

Azerbaijan, open borders.

Lenna (00:36:07):

Well,

Lenna (00:36:08):

you know,

Lenna (00:36:09):

I'd like to see more of the reciprocity because within that declaration,

Lenna (00:36:13):

let's talk about the details.

Lenna (00:36:15):

The declaration was supposed to have transit routes that went through Azerbaijan

Lenna (00:36:20):

that would get us to the Caspian Sea,

Lenna (00:36:22):

right?

Asbed (00:36:22):

Let's see those.

Lenna (00:36:24):

Mutual, reciprocal.

Lenna (00:36:26):

So, you know, I mean, I digress on that point.

Lenna (00:36:29):

But the point is that if you're trying to reach an objective like that,

Lenna (00:36:33):

then advocate for that reciprocity.

Lenna (00:36:36):

It's not in the interest of Armenia to alienate a diaspora,

Lenna (00:36:40):

which has a lot of experience,

Lenna (00:36:42):

has a lot of wealth and wants to invest in Armenia and be there.

Lenna (00:36:46):

So I find that to be divisive.

Lenna (00:36:49):

And I think there's a lot more diplomatic ways that he can say that.

Lenna (00:36:53):

and still get along with his objectives of opening borders.

Asbed (00:36:58):

Absolutely.

Asbed (00:36:59):

Absolutely. But, you know,

Asbed (00:37:00):

Pashinyan has been driving a wedge between the republic and the diaspora for years.

Asbed (00:37:04):

And his government cronies slam traditional diaspora institutions like the ANC and

Asbed (00:37:10):

the ARF,

Asbed (00:37:11):

the Armenian Church,

Asbed (00:37:12):

all the time. I mean,

Asbed (00:37:13):

all you have to do is open the Facebook pages and,

Asbed (00:37:15):

you know,

Asbed (00:37:16):

all that drivel is right there.

Asbed (00:37:18):

Just like Pashinyan's real Armenia propaganda,

Asbed (00:37:22):

though, he's also pushing for a new diaspora and trying to marginalize any organization

Asbed (00:37:29):

that upholds the Armenian identity.

Asbed (00:37:31):

This is something you mentioned a moment ago when he is pushing this real Armenia

Asbed (00:37:35):

thing, which is very myopic.

Asbed (00:37:36):

I couldn't agree more.

Asbed (00:37:37):

You are deeply involved in Armenian advocacy.

Asbed (00:37:41):

How does this difficult relationship between Armenia and the diaspora affect not

Asbed (00:37:47):

just the US,

Asbed (00:37:48):

but the worldwide diaspora communities and efforts?

Lenna (00:37:53):

As you said,

Lenna (00:37:54):

I mean,

Lenna (00:37:55):

we're already,

Lenna (00:37:56):

you know,

Lenna (00:37:57):

we fight hard,

Lenna (00:37:58):

obviously being a,

Lenna (00:37:59):

you know, a small population in the world and holding,

Lenna (00:38:02):

carrying a burden of our history and the pride of our history everywhere that we

Lenna (00:38:07):

go.

Lenna (00:38:08):

Diasporan communities through the Armenian church and Armenian schools and other

Lenna (00:38:13):

avenues and institutions have the deep respect of Armenians everywhere because they

Lenna (00:38:18):

help keep us Armenian.

Lenna (00:38:20):

They help us raise our children to be Armenian and keep us within our, keep our heritage alive.

Lenna (00:38:28):

When you diminish these institutions, it's very problematic.

Lenna (00:38:34):

And I think it weakens, it has the potential to weaken the strength of these institutions.

Lenna (00:38:40):

And also I've seen the labels.

Lenna (00:38:42):

I mean, you can label something as pro-Russian and pro-this and pro-that.

Lenna (00:38:47):

No, some of us are very pro-Armenian and we're very proud of that.

Lenna (00:38:51):

And labeling us something because we stand for our Armenian heritage,

Lenna (00:38:57):

our Armenian institutions,

Lenna (00:38:58):

we have respect for them and love for them and dedication to them where we

Lenna (00:39:03):

volunteered decades of our life.

Lenna (00:39:06):

It's insulting.

Lenna (00:39:08):

I think that he needs to have a better he can't jail the opposition in the diaspora.

Lenna (00:39:13):

He can jail the opposition who don't agree with some of the policies that he has in Armenia.

Lenna (00:39:19):

But Armenia is supposed to be a democracy.

Lenna (00:39:21):

So,

Lenna (00:39:22):

you know, that's that's troubling that,

Lenna (00:39:24):

you know, people are not able to voice their opposition to policy in the diaspora.

Lenna (00:39:29):

I guess the only way that you can do that is by slandering or labeling them as a

Lenna (00:39:33):

pro-Russian or whatever you want.

Lenna (00:39:35):

But that does not.

Lenna (00:39:36):

diminish or stop our advocacy.

Lenna (00:39:40):

It's unfortunate.

Lenna (00:39:41):

It weakens our, I guess, to the outside world.

Lenna (00:39:45):

It diminishes the solidarity of our movement.

Lenna (00:39:50):

I think that unity is very strong, but unity usually comes together under strong leadership.

Lenna (00:39:57):

And that's what I've seen is when there's strong leadership,

Lenna (00:40:00):

even if you disagree,

Lenna (00:40:01):

but you feel that even in smaller communities,

Lenna (00:40:05):

I work very closely in our community organically in the last 10 years,

Lenna (00:40:09):

when you have a mission and a ,

Lenna (00:40:13):

like in your heart,

Lenna (00:40:15):

you have the higher purpose,

Lenna (00:40:17):

People are not dumb.

Lenna (00:40:19):

People understand that in your heart of hearts.

Lenna (00:40:22):

And even if there's not exact agreement,

Lenna (00:40:24):

people come together under that umbrella and they know that you're there for the

Lenna (00:40:28):

higher purpose and the higher cause.

Lenna (00:40:30):

That's what I would like to see for Armenia.

Lenna (00:40:32):

When we look at leaders in the past...

Lenna (00:40:35):

You know, we've seen hints of that.

Lenna (00:40:37):

And I think that that type of unity or that type of leadership,

Lenna (00:40:42):

whether Armenia is strong or weak,

Lenna (00:40:44):

we have lived through millennia and ages.

Lenna (00:40:47):

But it's because of strong leadership and that kind of patriotism that's taken us

Lenna (00:40:53):

and also our religious,

Lenna (00:40:56):

you know, our conviction towards our Christianity,

Lenna (00:40:59):

our religion has taken us to survive through all kinds of incursions.

Lenna (00:41:04):

and challenges in the past.

Asbed (00:41:06):

I think... Just said that unity comes under strong leadership.

Lenna (00:41:11):

I really believe that.

Lenna (00:41:12):

I've seen it in small communities.

Lenna (00:41:14):

People don't mess around when they know that you're not in it for yourself,

Lenna (00:41:19):

but you're in it because you really care deeply.

Lenna (00:41:21):

And I have to say that,

Lenna (00:41:24):

you know,

Lenna (00:41:25):

with the work that I've done through the ANCA,

Lenna (00:41:27):

the people that I've worked with,

Lenna (00:41:28):

and also beyond the ANCA,

Lenna (00:41:30):

that that type of...

Lenna (00:41:33):

it unites us, it brings us together.

Lenna (00:41:35):

And the details of this or that,

Lenna (00:41:38):

I mean, we're in a generation where we move past those things and we respect those who

Lenna (00:41:44):

dedicate their lives to our cause.

Hovik (00:41:46):

Azerbaijan and Turkey,

Hovik (00:41:48):

with help from some other major lobbies,

Hovik (00:41:52):

have invested heavily in lobbying and influence campaigns in the United States and

Hovik (00:41:59):

worldwide to shape policy that,

Hovik (00:42:01):

let's just put it mildly,

Hovik (00:42:04):

is anti-Armenian.

Hovik (00:42:06):

And from time to time,

Hovik (00:42:08):

we see reports of investigations into bribery or corruptions linked to,

Hovik (00:42:12):

for instance,

Hovik (00:42:13):

Azerbaijani lobbying.

Hovik (00:42:14):

Yet few of these cases seem to result in guilty verdicts or lasting consequences.

Hovik (00:42:19):

There was recently a verdict in Germany where the person got,

Hovik (00:42:25):

I think,

Hovik (00:42:26):

a suspended sentence and some slap on the wrist in terms of the monetary amount of

Hovik (00:42:33):

fines.

Asbed (00:42:33):

That was MEP Lindner, I think.

Hovik (00:42:35):

Yeah,

Hovik (00:42:36):

Lindner,

Hovik (00:42:37):

there are a few others,

Hovik (00:42:38):

but this raises doubts whether institutions can effectively curb this foreign

Hovik (00:42:45):

influence and what that failure means for those advocating for Armenia and Artsakh.

Hovik (00:42:50):

What obstacles does the Armenian-American community face in countering Azerbaijan's

Hovik (00:42:55):

lobbying and influence efforts?

Hovik (00:42:58):

And how effective have institutions been in ensuring the accountability for their

Hovik (00:43:03):

transgressions?

Lenna (00:43:06):

I would say that the Azeri laundromat,

Lenna (00:43:09):

caviar diplomacy,

Lenna (00:43:11):

whitewashing,

Lenna (00:43:12):

sports washing,

Lenna (00:43:14):

genocide washing is their playbook.

Lenna (00:43:17):

And do they have the resources to do that?

Lenna (00:43:20):

Absolutely.

Lenna (00:43:21):

We know the geopolitical game that they play,

Lenna (00:43:25):

the gas and oil diplomacy,

Lenna (00:43:27):

and how that influences Europe,

Lenna (00:43:30):

the Middle East,

Lenna (00:43:31):

and also potentially the United States.

Lenna (00:43:34):

through recent criminal cases.

Lenna (00:43:37):

It's a challenge that we face.

Lenna (00:43:39):

And I think that when you look at the counterbalance that has to be done for that,

Lenna (00:43:45):

I think that we as a organization,

Lenna (00:43:48):

as a community,

Lenna (00:43:49):

let's say,

Lenna (00:43:50):

can, in order to level the playing field,

Lenna (00:43:53):

become a little bit more political savvy and aware.

Lenna (00:43:56):

And not only that, but to put more money into political advocacy.

Lenna (00:44:02):

we can see that through other communities that they're able to influence uh

Lenna (00:44:06):

american politics and international politics by putting a little bit more resources

Lenna (00:44:12):

into that and that can have a tremendous impact to somewhat level the playing field

Lenna (00:44:17):

but i would say too that we have a very strong armenian spirit and i think that

Lenna (00:44:22):

we've been able to counter that but i think

Lenna (00:44:24):

We need to become stronger, create more sophisticated mechanisms.

Lenna (00:44:29):

I will say specifically fundraising.

Lenna (00:44:31):

I've done some of that in the state of Nevada,

Lenna (00:44:34):

but it's also been my work as an advocate,

Lenna (00:44:38):

my legal background.

Lenna (00:44:40):

I've put in that resource into building the relationships,

Lenna (00:44:43):

and we've done that across the country as ANCA.

Lenna (00:44:47):

So I will say the recent,

Lenna (00:44:48):

you know, whether it's Eric Adams,

Lenna (00:44:50):

the mayor, former mayor of New York,

Lenna (00:44:52):

and whether it is Cuellar in Texas,

Lenna (00:44:56):

who's currently being tried for,

Lenna (00:44:59):

you know,

Lenna (00:45:00):

bribery,

Lenna (00:45:01):

money laundering,

Lenna (00:45:02):

bribery,

Lenna (00:45:03):

and under Farah.

Lenna (00:45:04):

The Farah convictions or the Farah allegations, I think, were dropped by the judge.

Lenna (00:45:10):

But I know that the bribery,

Lenna (00:45:11):

the $600,000 bribery scheme that was paid by Azerbaijan in order to influence his

Lenna (00:45:19):

legislation and policy,

Lenna (00:45:21):

make it anti-Armenian,

Lenna (00:45:22):

pro-Azeri,

Lenna (00:45:23):

specifically during the time frame of the blockade,

Lenna (00:45:27):

the war on Artsakh.

Lenna (00:45:30):

the 2023 blockade had a real impact.

Lenna (00:45:32):

And what the ANCA has done is basically submit a letter to the U.S.

Lenna (00:45:38):

attorney who is prosecuting the case so that when it comes to the point of

Lenna (00:45:42):

sentencing and possible,

Lenna (00:45:46):

I guess,

Lenna (00:45:47):

yeah,

Lenna (00:45:48):

the sentencing phase to have an impact that this has had

Lenna (00:45:51):

a real damage to the Armenian American community as a form of influencing policy.

Lenna (00:45:56):

It's very problematic.

Lenna (00:45:57):

We have to be aware of it.

Lenna (00:45:59):

And the only way to fight it is to bring it to light,

Lenna (00:46:02):

as we are right now,

Lenna (00:46:04):

but also we must counter it.

Lenna (00:46:06):

And I would say that if I would ask anything of our community,

Lenna (00:46:09):

I would say to be more politically engaged and to invest more resources,

Lenna (00:46:13):

especially to those of us who have the tools,

Lenna (00:46:16):

the know-how to be able to do those things.

Lenna (00:46:19):

You know, give us more.

Lenna (00:46:20):

And we'll do more with that, because there's so much more we can do.

Lenna (00:46:24):

I mean, I've done it almost single-handedly,

Lenna (00:46:27):

but with community partners here in Nevada,

Lenna (00:46:29):

but been able to create that kind of a footprint.

Lenna (00:46:32):

And look what's come out of that.

Lenna (00:46:33):

We have Armenian Genocide Education Act,

Lenna (00:46:36):

spearheaded by Congresswoman Titus,

Lenna (00:46:38):

the first ever Sanctions Review Act,

Lenna (00:46:40):

Azerbaijan Sanctions Review Act.

Lenna (00:46:42):

I mean, these are the kinds of things that we can do with even more resources.

Hovik (00:46:46):

Yeah.

Hovik (00:46:48):

You mentioned Cuellar.

Hovik (00:46:49):

We should say that he has pleaded not guilty,

Hovik (00:46:51):

but do you have any expectations in terms of how fast his case will go through the

Hovik (00:46:58):

courts?

Lenna (00:46:59):

I think they have a set hearing or maybe even the trial in next year in 2026.

Lenna (00:47:04):

So it's something that's moving along,

Lenna (00:47:07):

whether there'll be a plea or something else in the case,

Lenna (00:47:11):

can't predict that.

Lenna (00:47:12):

But I know that our Washington, D.C.

Lenna (00:47:15):

office has made requests for freedom of information.

Lenna (00:47:18):

to see how he's impacted and influenced the Armenian Americans and negatively

Lenna (00:47:24):

impacted our advocacy for human rights and to end the blockade during these really

Lenna (00:47:30):

critical times.

Lenna (00:47:31):

He was involved in that legislation and so it had a very damaging impact.

Lenna (00:47:37):

I think it brings to light those things that we need to be aware of and you know

Lenna (00:47:41):

I'll say that we need

Lenna (00:47:43):

When people like this that are running for office, we need to be at the primaries.

Lenna (00:47:48):

We need to be involved,

Lenna (00:47:50):

whether it's through the votes that we have in swing states like Nevada,

Lenna (00:47:54):

Michigan.

Lenna (00:47:55):

In key elections, we should be coming out and making an impact.

Lenna (00:48:00):

In states like Nevada,

Lenna (00:48:01):

where we have 40,000 Armenians,

Lenna (00:48:03):

we have an impact in elections,

Lenna (00:48:07):

especially in these swing states.

Lenna (00:48:08):

So that's something we should continue to do.

Lenna (00:48:11):

and we should put more resources into advocacy.

Hovik (00:48:13):

From your experience as an attorney,

Hovik (00:48:17):

what does the designation of Armenian Americans as victims of this scheme by Qayyar

Hovik (00:48:23):

and Azerbaijan,

Hovik (00:48:25):

or the alleged scheme,

Hovik (00:48:27):

what would the designation of being a victim mean in terms of sentencing,

Hovik (00:48:33):

during sentencing?

Lenna (00:48:35):

You mean how would it impact sentencing?

Hovik (00:48:37):

Yeah, how would it impact what...

Hovik (00:48:40):

What would be the mechanics?

Hovik (00:48:42):

Because I think like,

Hovik (00:48:43):

you know, the entire community has been,

Hovik (00:48:45):

I mean, entire nation has been sort of injured,

Hovik (00:48:49):

almost injured.

Hovik (00:48:50):

Yeah. You know, how would the mechanics of that work?

Hovik (00:48:53):

And also, how would that affect the sentencing?

Lenna (00:48:56):

Right.

Lenna (00:48:57):

Sentencing, I would think that it would prolong his sentencing and give him a longer sentence.

Lenna (00:49:01):

And there was also a part about restitution.

Lenna (00:49:03):

That's part of this federal crimes bill, victim crime.

Lenna (00:49:09):

It's a victim bill of these crimes.

Lenna (00:49:12):

So there's a there's a part that talks about restitution.

Lenna (00:49:16):

And I think that's a great question.

Lenna (00:49:17):

How do you create restitution for something that's impacted a policy?

Lenna (00:49:21):

That's a very difficult question.

Lenna (00:49:23):

And I would love to see that how that would play out.

Lenna (00:49:26):

I mean, how can you undo the damage that's happened in Asaf through policy?

Lenna (00:49:32):

And I think that's that that's a good question.

Lenna (00:49:35):

I'm not sure that I know the answer to that.

Hovik (00:49:38):

OK, well, I really do appreciate, Lenna, your time with us today.

Hovik (00:49:43):

Do you have anything to add as your final thought?

Lenna (00:49:47):

Well, I would say yes, I do.

Lenna (00:49:49):

Actually, I was thinking about this and,

Lenna (00:49:51):

you know, there were a few events leading up to the trip meeting of the,

Lenna (00:49:56):

you know,

Lenna (00:49:57):

the August 8th meeting.

Lenna (00:49:58):

And

Lenna (00:50:00):

There were moments where we were, as the diaspora, left in the dark.

Lenna (00:50:05):

And then all of a sudden, there was this meeting in Washington, DC.

Lenna (00:50:09):

And to see the events unfold in Armenia by the attack on the Armenian church,

Lenna (00:50:16):

jailing of the opposition,

Lenna (00:50:19):

Samvel Karapetyan,

Lenna (00:50:20):

who is a potential candidate for the 2026 elections,

Lenna (00:50:26):

unfold,

Lenna (00:50:27):

really,

Lenna (00:50:28):

we got this feeling in the diaspora that something was going on,

Lenna (00:50:32):

at least I did.

Lenna (00:50:34):

And when I heard the ambassador to Turkey, Tom Barrack,

Lenna (00:50:40):

start talking about the,

Lenna (00:50:42):

uh,

Lenna (00:50:43):

corridor or the,

Lenna (00:50:45):

uh, 99 year lease,

Lenna (00:50:46):

99 year lease,

Lenna (00:50:47):

or let's just call it the Zangezur corridor,

Lenna (00:50:50):

or, Oh, I guess it's different.

Lenna (00:50:51):

Cause we,

Lenna (00:50:52):

you know, we have sovereignty over it,

Lenna (00:50:53):

but I think what really disturbed me the most,

Lenna (00:50:56):

and I knew the,

Lenna (00:50:58):

where we were going is when he talked about the,

Lenna (00:51:02):

um, 43 kilometer road as,

Lenna (00:51:05):

um,

Lenna (00:51:06):

No big deal.

Lenna (00:51:07):

He made it like, oh, what's the big deal?

Lenna (00:51:09):

And then talked about our rights as tribal, that we would have like a tribal.

Lenna (00:51:13):

He used the word tribal.

Lenna (00:51:15):

And I think it made me think about American history.

Lenna (00:51:19):

As an Armenian American, it made me think about Manhattan.

Lenna (00:51:22):

Manhattan was bought for a string of pearls.

Lenna (00:51:26):

And it's a real...

Lenna (00:51:30):

marginalization uh it doesn't feel right it doesn't smell right and it really uh

Lenna (00:51:37):

feels a bit racist towards our people and to talk about our rights as tribal and

Lenna (00:51:44):

minimizes our rights it also minimizes what we're giving up with the trip corridor

Lenna (00:51:51):

and if you're going to give up something that is so valuable

Lenna (00:51:55):

and so potentially problematic as far as a security issue,

Lenna (00:52:00):

then in return,

Lenna (00:52:02):

I really felt that we needed to get much more from this deal.

Lenna (00:52:07):

And it feels like it's a very one-sided concession.

Lenna (00:52:11):

We should have at least had the optics of having hostages released.

Lenna (00:52:14):

I wanted to see those hostages coming out of an airplane or something to show to

Lenna (00:52:20):

the Armenian community in the diaspora

Lenna (00:52:22):

that something positive was going to come out of this.

Lenna (00:52:25):

And unfortunately, we didn't have that moment.

Lenna (00:52:28):

And it doesn't feel like there was any justice done here,

Lenna (00:52:32):

or that the negotiation was done with any level of real gain for the Armenian side.

Lenna (00:52:38):

And so that,

Lenna (00:52:39):

you know, we're willing to say that,

Lenna (00:52:41):

you know, you were on the losing end of this deal.

Lenna (00:52:42):

You needed to concede something so they wouldn't attack you and force that Zong is a recorder.

Lenna (00:52:48):

If we buy into that, then we made a major concession.

Lenna (00:52:52):

I don't care how you want to rebrand it or propagandize that,

Lenna (00:52:56):

but it was very important to have at least the optics and the feeling of having at

Lenna (00:53:00):

least one or two or 23 of those hostages released.

Lenna (00:53:04):

Let's not misconceive or think that after you've already negotiated the most

Lenna (00:53:09):

important aspects of the deal that you would after the deal is done,

Lenna (00:53:13):

you know, the declaration made that you're going to get any type of concession or hostage

Lenna (00:53:18):

released after the fact.

Lenna (00:53:19):

Now that the international the international Red Cross is no longer present,

Lenna (00:53:26):

that they have basically been kicked out.

Lenna (00:53:28):

of Azerbaijan since September 2nd,

Lenna (00:53:31):

that those poor hostages,

Lenna (00:53:33):

those 23 prisoners,

Lenna (00:53:35):

the Artsakh leaders who are now attempting suicide,

Lenna (00:53:38):

I've heard,

Lenna (00:53:39):

I've read from Siranush Sahakyan's report that they're attempting suicide.

Lenna (00:53:43):

They have lost hope.

Lenna (00:53:45):

So it is not only like a bad, feel like a bad deal, but it's a demoralizing deal.

Lenna (00:53:51):

And that's really problematic to us as a community for our spirit.

Lenna (00:53:56):

And I would, mm-hmm.

Asbed (00:53:57):

You know, I think behind closed doors, Aliyev has told Pashinyan he will concede nothing, zero.

Asbed (00:54:05):

And he will get everything, everything, 100%.

Asbed (00:54:07):

And they can manage it the way they want it,

Asbed (00:54:10):

whatever,

Asbed (00:54:11):

put lipstick on a pig or whatever you want,

Asbed (00:54:14):

but he will give absolutely nothing.

Asbed (00:54:16):

That's why not even a single prisoner was.

Asbed (00:54:18):

I mean, those prisoners,

Asbed (00:54:20):

I realized some of the ones that were taken after September 2023,

Asbed (00:54:23):

that's one thing,

Asbed (00:54:24):

and that's the leadership of Artsakh.

Asbed (00:54:26):

But all the other prisoners were taken during the 44 day war.

Asbed (00:54:29):

Those were all supposed to be an all for all exchange,

Asbed (00:54:33):

according to the ceasefire agreement that was signed in November of 2020.

Asbed (00:54:36):

None of them came home because Pashinyan just shipped everybody like an idiot to

Asbed (00:54:41):

Azerbaijan,

Asbed (00:54:42):

after which Aliyev decided,

Asbed (00:54:43):

well, I don't have to give you anything.

Asbed (00:54:45):

I have what I need.

Asbed (00:54:46):

So that's what happened.

Asbed (00:54:47):

And may I say one more thing, Lenna, before I close?

Asbed (00:54:50):

About the tribal comment from Tom Barrack,

Asbed (00:54:52):

that is an absolute 100% Turkish and Azeri narrative that Armenians are a tribal

Asbed (00:54:58):

people who didn't have a state or a republic or anything throughout history.

Asbed (00:55:03):

And they've just settled in the lands that are today,

Asbed (00:55:06):

you know,

Asbed (00:55:07):

Eastern Turkey and today's Armenia and parts of Azerbaijan and Iran.

Asbed (00:55:13):

So that's what's going on.

Lenna (00:55:15):

I agree with you 100%.

Lenna (00:55:16):

And I think that,

Lenna (00:55:18):

you know, if we look at post-agreement,

Lenna (00:55:20):

the rhetoric coming from Aliyev at the Shanghai summit,

Lenna (00:55:23):

because watching his rhetoric,

Lenna (00:55:24):

it should have changed,

Lenna (00:55:25):

right?

Lenna (00:55:26):

Because now we were supposed to be in the peace phase,

Lenna (00:55:28):

but he went back to calling it the Zangezur Corridor.

Lenna (00:55:31):

And so it shows a real disregard

Lenna (00:55:34):

for the progress that was supposed to be made and also the allegations that he's

Lenna (00:55:39):

fearful of Trump.

Lenna (00:55:41):

I mean, that was sort of supposed to be the lever.

Lenna (00:55:43):

OK, there's no security guarantees in writing.

Lenna (00:55:46):

There's no guarantor.

Lenna (00:55:48):

America is not the guarantor.

Lenna (00:55:50):

America has a commercial benefit out of this trip deal.

Lenna (00:55:53):

Don't let's not call it a guarantor because they're not.

Lenna (00:55:56):

They're a joint venture.

Lenna (00:55:57):

There's a commercial and economic gain from this.

Lenna (00:56:00):

Let's not call it what it's not.

Lenna (00:56:01):

And wishful thinking is dangerous.

Asbed (00:56:03):

As far as I could tell,

Asbed (00:56:04):

America was a witness to the two talking to each other in the White House.

Asbed (00:56:08):

That's what it was.

Lenna (00:56:09):

It was.

Asbed (00:56:10):

And as for Aliyev, he's a hate-filled schmuck, as far as I'm concerned.

Asbed (00:56:15):

There, I'll go on the record on my show saying this,

Asbed (00:56:18):

because he's called Armenians dogs and other things.

Asbed (00:56:22):

So I don't think that there is any doubt about what he is towards Armenians.

Asbed (00:56:27):

All right. I'm going to leave it there for today.

Asbed (00:56:29):

Thank you so much for joining us, Lenna.

Asbed (00:56:31):

And we look forward to talking with you again in the future when there are causes

Asbed (00:56:34):

that we want to get out and distribute widely.

Lenna (00:56:38):

Absolutely.

Lenna (00:56:39):

It's a pleasure to be here.

Lenna (00:56:40):

And thank you very much.

Lenna (00:56:41):

I appreciate it.

Hovik (00:56:42):

Thank you, Lenna.

Asbed (00:56:45):

That's our show today.

Asbed (00:56:46):

This episode was recorded on September 5, 2025.

Asbed (00:56:49):

We've been talking with Lenna Hovanessian,

Asbed (00:56:52):

who is a board member of the Armenian National Committee of America in the Western

Asbed (00:56:56):

region.

Asbed (00:56:57):

For more information on the participants in this episode,

Asbed (00:56:59):

check out our show notes at podcasts.groong.org / episode-number.

Hovik (00:57:05):

Don't forget to subscribe to us on Apple Podcasts, folks.

Hovik (00:57:08):

Help us get elevated on that platform.

Hovik (00:57:11):

I'm Hovik Manucharyan, temporarily back in Glendale.

Hovik (00:57:14):

And I'm Asbed Bedrossian, also in Glendale.

Asbed (00:57:17):

We'll talk to you soon.

Asbed (00:57:18):

Bye-bye.

Asbed (00:57:19):

Bye-bye.

People on this episode

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Asbed Bedrossian

Co-host
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Hovik Manucharyan

Co-host

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