Armenian News Network - Groong: Week In Review Podcast

Arthur Khachatryan - September 13 War, Kiliç in Armenia, US $145M for TRIPP, Shorter Military Service | Ep 472, Sep 14, 2025

• Armenian News Network / Groong • Episode 472

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Groong Week in Review - September 25, 2025

Topics

  • September 13, 2022 War
  • Serdar Kiliç in Armenia
  • US State Dept. in Yerevan
  • Shorter Military Service
  • The Kitchen Sink

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Episode 472 | Recorded: September 15, 2025


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Asbed (00:00:04):

Hello, everyone,

Asbed (00:00:05):

and welcome to the Armenian News Network Groong Week in Review for September 14,

Asbed (00:00:09):

2025. Today,

Asbed (00:00:11):

we're talking with Arthur Khachatryan,

Asbed (00:00:12):

a member of the Armenian Parliament from the Hayastan Dashing Armenia Alliance.

Asbed (00:00:17):

Mr. Khachatryan, welcome to the Groong podcast.

Asbed (00:00:19):

Great to have you.

Hovik (00:00:20):

Welcome, Mr. Khachatryan.

Arthur (00:00:22):

Well, thanks for having me with you.

Hovik (00:00:24):

So to begin today's discussion, Arthur, I want to talk about a somber occasion.

Hovik (00:00:32):

And the reason why I think especially we should do it is because the government of

Hovik (00:00:37):

Armenia is simply trying to

Hovik (00:00:39):

mute anything related to our past heroism and our past sacrifices.

Hovik (00:00:45):

And what I'm talking about specifically is the short but deadly one-day war on

Hovik (00:00:52):

September 13,

Hovik (00:00:53):

2022. This year marks the third anniversary of that.

Hovik (00:00:59):

and it was a brutal war when Azerbaijan suddenly attacked Armenia including areas

Hovik (00:01:05):

like Jermuk and also in the Syunik province and in that brief span 224 Armenian

Hovik (00:01:13):

servicemen were killed many more were wounded and the amount of casualties from

Hovik (00:01:19):

this war was much higher

Hovik (00:01:22):

than when you compare it with the 2016 four-day war,

Hovik (00:01:26):

which lasted longer and was more intensive.

Hovik (00:01:30):

Anyway, the harrowing videos showed Armenian soldiers being summarily tortured,

Hovik (00:01:35):

mutilated, executed,

Hovik (00:01:36):

female soldiers being sexually assaulted,

Hovik (00:01:40):

or at least evidence of sexual assault for female soldiers.

Hovik (00:01:43):

And apparently all of this is acceptable for the government of Armenia to

Hovik (00:01:49):

essentially excuse away.

Hovik (00:01:51):

In the case of a peace treaty,

Hovik (00:01:53):

Armenia has already officially said that they would withdraw their criminal cases,

Hovik (00:01:57):

including

Hovik (00:01:59):

seeking justice for this incident.

Hovik (00:02:01):

As a result of this aggression over 200 square kilometers of Armenian territory

Hovik (00:02:07):

Some in the areas of Jermuk,

Hovik (00:02:09):

Vayots Dzor province,

Hovik (00:02:10):

others in the south of Armenia have been occupied.

Hovik (00:02:14):

That is an area roughly the size of Yerevan and it remains under Azerbaijani occupation.

Hovik (00:02:20):

No indication of Azerbaijani withdrawal.

Hovik (00:02:23):

In fact, there is proof that Azerbaijanis are fortifying their positions, if not anything else.

Hovik (00:02:29):

And today the government of Armenia offers literal reflection of both the loss that

Hovik (00:02:35):

we have and also the fact that Azerbaijanis are further entrenching themselves.

Hovik (00:02:41):

A normal patriotic leadership would be expected to be at Yarablur honoring the fallen.

Hovik (00:02:47):

Meanwhile, the Armenian government officials are sponsoring a Harut Pambukchian concert.

Hovik (00:02:53):

all while continuing to talk about peace, how brilliant of a peace they have brought to us.

Hovik (00:02:59):

So, Arthur, I wanted to ask,

Hovik (00:03:00):

what are your thoughts on this third anniversary of this aggression by Azerbaijan?

Arthur (00:03:05):

You know,

Arthur (00:03:06):

after the 44-day war,

Arthur (00:03:08):

the government of Armenia and Pashinyan,

Arthur (00:03:10):

they are trying to dehumanize or depersonalize the war.

Arthur (00:03:16):

We know the names of people...

Arthur (00:03:19):

who died during the Shushi Liberation,

Arthur (00:03:24):

the names of the people who died during the Four-Day War in April 2016,

Arthur (00:03:30):

and during all major battles during the First Artsakh War.

Arthur (00:03:34):

However,

Arthur (00:03:35):

the names of the soldiers and civilians who were killed during the 44-Day War have

Arthur (00:03:41):

never been published.

Arthur (00:03:43):

Similarly, the names of people, names of servicemen who were killed in Germany,

Arthur (00:03:48):

the names of servicemen who were killed during the,

Arthur (00:03:51):

now the September war,

Arthur (00:03:52):

on September 19th of 2023,

Arthur (00:03:54):

when Azerbaijan launched its final offensive against Republic of Artsakh.

Arthur (00:04:01):

The government of Armenia has never publicized these names.

Arthur (00:04:04):

So trying to dehumanize or depersonalize, which makes it easier to forget, to hide this war.

Arthur (00:04:13):

So I'm not surprised that the government and Pashinyan themselves

Arthur (00:04:17):

didn't pay any tribute to any respect to that for the killed soldiers and never

Arthur (00:04:22):

visited they didn't visit here are below there was nothing uh or nothing

Arthur (00:04:27):

significant on the on the public television and on the government controlled media

Arthur (00:04:33):

and Pashinyan controlled media

Arthur (00:04:36):

And this is not surprising.

Arthur (00:04:37):

This is completely in line with his policy.

Arthur (00:04:41):

Remember the last Wednesday at the National Assembly says that the future,

Arthur (00:04:48):

the bright future is already here.

Arthur (00:04:51):

We live in peace.

Arthur (00:04:54):

It's peace between Armenia and Azerbaijan.

Arthur (00:04:58):

So if there is a peace between Azerbaijan and Armenia,

Arthur (00:05:01):

then Pashinyan has to camouflage,

Arthur (00:05:03):

has to hide,

Arthur (00:05:05):

and has to make the people forget that at least 200 square kilometers,

Arthur (00:05:10):

more than 200 square kilometers of Armenian soil,

Arthur (00:05:14):

about 250 square kilometers of Armenian soil is currently under Azeri occupation.

Arthur (00:05:21):

Azeri occupation, Azeri soldiers, occupants, are on the territory of Armenia.

Arthur (00:05:27):

So everyone's sound in mind will ask,

Arthur (00:05:29):

how come there is peace between Armenia and Azerbaijan,

Arthur (00:05:33):

but Azerbaijan doesn't agree to withdraw its forces from Armenian territory?

Arthur (00:05:39):

And to camouflage, to hide this, they have Harut Pambukchian singing in Drozda.

Arthur (00:05:47):

And this is Harut Pambukchian.

Arthur (00:05:50):

whose concert was boycotted by Pashinyan supporters in 2018.

Arthur (00:05:56):

And recently I saw video on the social media,

Arthur (00:06:01):

Harut Pambukchian singing at Hrazdan Stadium,

Arthur (00:06:04):

about 60,000,

Arthur (00:06:05):

70,000 people,

Arthur (00:06:07):

and he was singing .

Arthur (00:06:11):

And, you know, I'm not surprised when Pashinyan tries to clean the memory of the people.

Arthur (00:06:19):

I'm surprised,

Arthur (00:06:21):

you know, the behavior of artists,

Arthur (00:06:23):

singers,

Arthur (00:06:25):

who take money from Pashinyan and to help them become their tool in this painful

Arthur (00:06:33):

and disgraceful act.

Arthur (00:06:36):

So they said, yeah.

Arthur (00:06:38):

This is what Pashinyan does.

Arthur (00:06:39):

This is what the country is, country looks like.

Arthur (00:06:42):

This is what the country's official policy is under Pashinyan.

Arthur (00:06:46):

And remember his statement today,

Arthur (00:06:49):

you know,

Arthur (00:06:50):

if you are building a new house,

Arthur (00:06:51):

you cannot have a picture that,

Arthur (00:06:55):

you cannot do something that irritates your neighbor.

Arthur (00:06:58):

Talking about withdrawing the picture of Mount Ararat from the stamps,

Arthur (00:07:03):

from the border crossing stamp.

Arthur (00:07:06):

To start with,

Arthur (00:07:07):

We are not building the country.

Arthur (00:07:09):

The country has gained its independence for 20, 35 years already.

Arthur (00:07:14):

It was a pretty respectful and respectful country,

Arthur (00:07:18):

respected by the neighbors,

Arthur (00:07:20):

respected by international community that was protecting its borders,

Arthur (00:07:25):

that was guaranteeing the safety and security of people of Artsakh.

Arthur (00:07:29):

If this continues one day,

Arthur (00:07:31):

Azeris will be irritated when we are speaking Armenian or if we are like making

Arthur (00:07:37):

prayers in Armenian,

Arthur (00:07:39):

we are calling our children Armenian names and call this country Armenia and not

Arthur (00:07:45):

West Azerbaijan.

Asbed (00:07:47):

Well, this is what happens when you keep a defeated leader in place.

Asbed (00:07:52):

Oh yeah, absolutely, I agree with you.

Asbed (00:07:54):

Arthur,

Asbed (00:07:55):

while the memory of the September 13 war was being muted in Yerevan,

Asbed (00:07:59):

as we talked about,

Asbed (00:08:01):

Turkish and Armenian envoy Serdar Kiliç and Ruben Rubinyan met at the Margara

Asbed (00:08:06):

crossing on the border and later in Yerevan,

Asbed (00:08:09):

pledging to expedite projects tied to normalization process.

Asbed (00:08:13):

At the same time,

Asbed (00:08:14):

Turkish Foreign Minister Hakan Fidan reiterated a couple of days ago Turkey's

Asbed (00:08:18):

longstanding position that Ankara's normalization with Armenia remains conditional

Asbed (00:08:23):

on Ilham Aliyev signing a so-called peace treaty,

Asbed (00:08:26):

which he was confident was going to be signed,

Asbed (00:08:28):

he said,

Asbed (00:08:29):

I think in the first half of 2026.

Asbed (00:08:32):

Yet,

Asbed (00:08:33):

as we know, Aliyev has only recently still openly declared that he will not sign the deal until

Asbed (00:08:38):

Armenia changes its constitution to his own terms,

Asbed (00:08:41):

his own conditions.

Asbed (00:08:42):

And this process, we've talked about this process before.

Asbed (00:08:45):

It's probably going to take one or two years.

Asbed (00:08:47):

So in this context, what expediting are we talking about?

Asbed (00:08:51):

What's expected from this visit of Kiliç?

Asbed (00:08:54):

Is this a peace propaganda for the Pashinyan regime or is there something more than

Asbed (00:08:59):

we know about this?

Arthur (00:09:01):

No, absolutely.

Arthur (00:09:02):

This is just peace propaganda for the Pashinyan regime.

Arthur (00:09:05):

Right after Pashinyan's visit to Istanbul and his meeting with Erdogan,

Arthur (00:09:10):

followed by his meeting in Abu Dhabi with Aliyev,

Arthur (00:09:16):

Turkish and especially Azeri press were sending signals that Pashinyan is the best

Arthur (00:09:22):

candidate they can think of for the Armenian elections.

Arthur (00:09:26):

And they were also threatening the Armenian opposition

Arthur (00:09:29):

that they will not tolerate the rise of a new revanchist,

Arthur (00:09:33):

and they call everyone revanchist to speak.

Asbed (00:09:36):

If you seek justice, you're a revanchist.

Arthur (00:09:38):

Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.

Arthur (00:09:40):

So all three of us here.

Arthur (00:09:42):

And they basically do not hide that,

Arthur (00:09:45):

and quoting directly,

Arthur (00:09:46):

either Caliber.az or Azertaj.az,

Arthur (00:09:52):

someone is closely affiliated with the Ministry of Defense of Azerbaijan,

Arthur (00:09:56):

the other with Aliyev,

Arthur (00:09:58):

saying that,

Arthur (00:09:59):

yeah,

Arthur (00:10:00):

meeting in Abu Dhabi was political dividend generously granted by Aliyev to

Arthur (00:10:06):

Pashinyan on the verge of elections.

Arthur (00:10:10):

So I won't be surprised that right before the elections,

Arthur (00:10:14):

we will see more sweet words from Azerbaijan and Turkey about Pashinyan and more

Arthur (00:10:20):

threats against the opposition

Arthur (00:10:22):

and threatening the Armenian public that they will face a war,

Arthur (00:10:26):

basically face another offensive from Azerbaijan if the regime in Armenia changes.

Arthur (00:10:33):

So talking about the answer from your answer,

Arthur (00:10:37):

but the question about college,

Arthur (00:10:39):

I don't know what has been discussed.

Arthur (00:10:41):

I know that about three years ago, college promised to Armenia and the Armenian government

Arthur (00:10:46):

then they will open the Margara crossing for diplomatic passport holders and for

Arthur (00:10:52):

third country nationals.

Arthur (00:10:54):

So the first question is, why third country nationals?

Arthur (00:10:59):

If like,

Arthur (00:11:01):

I don't know,

Arthur (00:11:03):

the Sinhalese,

Arthur (00:11:04):

I mean,

Arthur (00:11:05):

Sri Lankans can cross the border between Armenia and Turkey at the Margara crossing

Arthur (00:11:11):

while Armenians cannot cross or Turks cannot cross.

Arthur (00:11:14):

Okay, well, Senegalese and Senegalese can cross.

Arthur (00:11:17):

There is a logic why Armenians can't do that.

Asbed (00:11:19):

You are absolutely reading my mind.

Asbed (00:11:21):

Who are these citizens of third parties waiting to cross the Armenian-Turkish border?

Arthur (00:11:25):

Yeah, yeah.

Arthur (00:11:26):

I haven't seen any line, okay, on the side of the border.

Hovik (00:11:28):

Is Azerbaijan considered a third party in this context?

Arthur (00:11:32):

Yeah, absolutely.

Arthur (00:11:34):

But I'm not sure, you know,

Arthur (00:11:35):

I don't think that Azeris have,

Arthur (00:11:37):

you know, queued to enter Armenia from Margara.

Asbed (00:11:41):

Arthur, one more thing, because I believe that,

Asbed (00:11:43):

I think it was Pashinyan who said just last week that citizens of no countries will

Asbed (00:11:48):

be discriminated against at Armenian borders.

Asbed (00:11:50):

But it doesn't seem like that includes Armenians.

Asbed (00:11:54):

Because in this deal, Armenian citizens are being discriminated against right now.

Arthur (00:11:59):

Basically, now there are two questions on my notebook.

Arthur (00:12:03):

First of all, this is interesting.

Arthur (00:12:05):

Right after this meeting, right after signing the ceremony, I think about two weeks after that,

Arthur (00:12:11):

Arat Mirzoyan himself confessed that according to his logic,

Arthur (00:12:16):

the border between Armenia and Turkey will be opened after the peace treaty is

Arthur (00:12:20):

signed.

Arthur (00:12:21):

So this means that Mirzoyan himself confessed that there is a precondition by Turkey.

Arthur (00:12:28):

For five years,

Arthur (00:12:30):

he and his boss and his party were cheating that there are no preconditions in

Arthur (00:12:37):

Armenia-Turkish reconciliation process.

Arthur (00:12:41):

So now he confesses that there is a precondition.

Arthur (00:12:46):

And now they keep repeating that.

Arthur (00:12:48):

Your second question,

Arthur (00:12:49):

there are many questions and no answers about this,

Arthur (00:12:53):

the regime on this trip.

Arthur (00:12:57):

You remember that during the press,

Arthur (00:12:59):

after the signing ceremony,

Arthur (00:13:01):

during this briefing,

Arthur (00:13:04):

President Trump himself said that

Arthur (00:13:07):

United States will get exclusive rights for up to 99 years to develop this corridor, the trip.

Arthur (00:13:16):

And then he said in 99 years,

Arthur (00:13:19):

it can be extended for another 99 years and said to Pashinyan,

Arthur (00:13:24):

you promised twice,

Arthur (00:13:26):

you promised that Pashinyan didn't object to that.

Arthur (00:13:30):

Now, what regime will be

Arthur (00:13:32):

will prevail on the corridor.

Arthur (00:13:34):

And by the way, Trump several times said the word corridor.

Arthur (00:13:39):

Corridor, and Pashinyan didn't react to that.

Arthur (00:13:43):

During the Q&A session with the government, we try to understand that.

Arthur (00:13:47):

Pashinyan says there won't be contact between Armenians and Azeris and machines

Arthur (00:13:57):

will replace the people

Arthur (00:13:59):

And he brought the example of crossing the border between,

Arthur (00:14:02):

you know, between the Eurasian Economic Union countries and also when you cross the United

Arthur (00:14:07):

Arab Emirates.

Arthur (00:14:09):

I crossed the border between, I crossed the border, you know, Arab border, UAE border.

Arthur (00:14:14):

There was a, you know, a pretty massive but very hard-looking border guide.

Arthur (00:14:21):

And, you know, the problems when you try to cross the Russian border.

Arthur (00:14:24):

So examples were completely wrong.

Arthur (00:14:27):

And let me remind you

Arthur (00:14:29):

that Aliyev himself continuously has said,

Arthur (00:14:33):

there shall be no encounter between Azeris and Armenian officials.

Arthur (00:14:38):

Now Pashinyan basically says, he has agreed with Aliyev's demands.

Arthur (00:14:46):

They will not interact with between,

Arthur (00:14:49):

you know, the Azeris will not interact with Armenian officials,

Arthur (00:14:53):

border guards or customs officials.

Arthur (00:14:55):

They will interact with the machines.

Asbed (00:14:58):

We're going to talk a little bit more about the Trump route in a moment,

Asbed (00:15:02):

but let me just keep on this normalization track for just a second,

Asbed (00:15:06):

because it seems like things are being hinged without even saying it.

Asbed (00:15:09):

They're being hinged on the change of constitution in Armenia.

Asbed (00:15:12):

Do you expect the constitution to be changed in early 2026 or during the elections of 2026?

Asbed (00:15:18):

Because...

Asbed (00:15:20):

That's what Hakan Fidan was, I mean, kind of implying.

Asbed (00:15:23):

There was an implicit understanding that if it's going to happen in 2026,

Asbed (00:15:27):

then other things that are prerequisites will be happening in 2026.

Hovik (00:15:32):

But before we even get there,

Hovik (00:15:33):

I mean, is it even feasible to consider,

Hovik (00:15:35):

you know,

Hovik (00:15:37):

having a referendum on the constitution and having it pass?

Arthur (00:15:40):

Well,

Arthur (00:15:41):

Fidan,

Arthur (00:15:42):

I think yesterday or a day before said that he expects a new constitution will be

Arthur (00:15:47):

adopted.

Arthur (00:15:48):

during the second part of 2026, after the elections.

Arthur (00:15:53):

That's, I think, the Turkey's assessment.

Arthur (00:15:57):

I think Pashinyan will do everything to have it passed or approved before the

Arthur (00:16:01):

elections, because Pashinyan has to put something on the barrel,

Arthur (00:16:05):

on the table,

Arthur (00:16:06):

saying that, I promised you I will bring peace.

Arthur (00:16:11):

The initial link of the peace treaty is not peace yet.

Arthur (00:16:15):

It's not peace yet.

Arthur (00:16:17):

You need something

Arthur (00:16:18):

more solid.

Arthur (00:16:20):

And Azerbaijan says, you need to change your constitution before we sign the peace treaty.

Arthur (00:16:26):

So Pashinyan will go to any concession.

Arthur (00:16:28):

We'll, you know, we'll do anything to have it changed.

Arthur (00:16:32):

I don't know how he's going to do that because the level of his supporting joys was

Arthur (00:16:38):

17 point something.

Arthur (00:16:41):

And the polls were conducted a few days after the initialing of this

Arthur (00:16:47):

of this so-called peace treaty and signing of the declaration between himself and

Arthur (00:16:52):

Aliyev that the government tries to present as a trilateral declaration,

Arthur (00:16:57):

which is an absolute bluff.

Arthur (00:17:01):

And compared to the previous poll, his popularity has gone up by three percentage points only.

Arthur (00:17:10):

So he needs something more serious to go to the elections.

Arthur (00:17:13):

He understands now, he sees that

Arthur (00:17:15):

the popularity of consolidated opposition is larger than his and his satellites popularity.

Asbed (00:17:25):

Yeah, there's a lot to be settled here.

Asbed (00:17:28):

You know, there are a couple of nuances which I'm not going to have time to discuss because

Asbed (00:17:32):

when I was reading the news last week,

Asbed (00:17:34):

there was an article which mentioned that Serbui Galyan had found language between

Asbed (00:17:38):

the Armenian constitution and the Azerbaijani constitution that were very similar.

Asbed (00:17:43):

as far as territorial discussions.

Asbed (00:17:45):

And therefore,

Asbed (00:17:46):

I think she was arguing that this either represents no territorial claims or it

Asbed (00:17:52):

represents territorial claims on the part of both countries.

Asbed (00:17:56):

But let's not go there.

Asbed (00:17:58):

Arthur Rubinyan and Kiliç discussed,

Asbed (00:18:01):

quote,

Asbed (00:18:02):

strengthening cooperation in the field of culture and academia,

Asbed (00:18:05):

particularly by creating scholarship opportunities for higher education students.

Asbed (00:18:10):

That's one.

Asbed (00:18:11):

and joint renovation of the historical Ani and Silk Road Bridge with Kiliç.

Asbed (00:18:17):

Can you expand on these projects?

Asbed (00:18:19):

What are we going to see?

Arthur (00:18:21):

Well,

Arthur (00:18:22):

Rubinyan and few other of his fellows from his party,

Arthur (00:18:26):

I think they have past trainings in Turkey,

Arthur (00:18:28):

obviously he loved that and he wants more Armenian to go there and to start

Arthur (00:18:34):

thinking like he does.

Arthur (00:18:35):

Thinking like he does,

Arthur (00:18:41):

uh no one sound in mind will believe that Turks will come and we learn something in

Arthur (00:18:47):

Armenia but I think they can't find opinion and his friends can't find people who

Arthur (00:18:53):

can be brainwashed by the Turks or who can go there and uh start teaching Armenian

Arthur (00:19:01):

Turkish reconciliation which is unilateral concessions and by the way this

Arthur (00:19:07):

government

Arthur (00:19:09):

already has changed the text of the textbooks of the uh you know textbook of the uh

Arthur (00:19:15):

armenian nation's history uh basically trying to brainwash the kids about this

Arthur (00:19:24):

dirty ideology of new armenia you know they don't have the picture of mess of

Arthur (00:19:31):

Mashtots in the uh in the textbooks instead they

Arthur (00:19:35):

basically blame Samvel Shahramanyan for ethnic cleansing in Artsakh.

Arthur (00:19:41):

So they already do that.

Arthur (00:19:42):

Now they want to get more training,

Arthur (00:19:45):

more consulting from Turkey,

Arthur (00:19:48):

how to continue this shameful behavior.

Arthur (00:19:51):

And talking about cultural exchange,

Arthur (00:19:54):

I think they just try to play on the emotions of the people saying that,

Arthur (00:19:59):

okay, forget about that.

Arthur (00:20:01):

Forget about Western Armenia,

Arthur (00:20:03):

forget about Artsakh,

Arthur (00:20:04):

instead you will have this Ani Bridge renovated.

Arthur (00:20:07):

I think they were talking about the renovation of Ani Bridge in Soviet Union,

Arthur (00:20:12):

but nothing has happened so far.

Asbed (00:20:14):

There was another point that they discussed about the Kars-Gyumri railway,

Asbed (00:20:18):

and I guess that's gonna be a panacea.

Asbed (00:20:20):

Let me ask you just one question.

Asbed (00:20:22):

Is this railway going to make Armenians rich?

Arthur (00:20:25):

No, not at all, no.

Arthur (00:20:29):

2021, when Pashinyan first spoke about huge Armenian transit potential,

Arthur (00:20:35):

I'm trying to get the government's assessment of the economic potential of this

Arthur (00:20:43):

economic impact of this trade drought,

Arthur (00:20:47):

of their assessment of this transit potential.

Arthur (00:20:52):

And I've been receiving

Arthur (00:20:55):

you know,

Arthur (00:20:56):

one sentence saying that they are still doing in the process of conducting a

Arthur (00:21:00):

feasibility study.

Arthur (00:21:02):

So no feasibility study, no assessment has ever been published.

Arthur (00:21:05):

But they keep saying that opening up of the road will make Armenian rich.

Arthur (00:21:10):

Well, of course, it's much better when you live with open roads rather than with closed roads.

Arthur (00:21:16):

But having the roads open will bring also

Arthur (00:21:21):

opening up of the economies and imagine what's going to happen if small Armenian

Arthur (00:21:25):

economy interacts with huge Turkish economy.

Arthur (00:21:29):

Imagine about the social impact,

Arthur (00:21:33):

the inflow of Turkish tomato into Armenia,

Arthur (00:21:36):

inflow of Turkish textile into Armenia.

Hovik (00:21:38):

Well, what would you say to the argument that liberalization would promote competition?

Hovik (00:21:47):

So if Armenian tomatoes cost more, then we should eat Turkish tomatoes.

Arthur (00:21:54):

Okay, then what the farmers shall eat?

Hovik (00:21:57):

Yeah, but I mean,

Hovik (00:21:58):

more importantly,

Hovik (00:21:59):

do you think that the Turkish government is subsidizing Turkish agriculture to the

Hovik (00:22:04):

point that Armenia can't?

Arthur (00:22:06):

Well, it doesn't matter what do I think.

Arthur (00:22:08):

There is statistics from OECD and Turkey is one of the...

Arthur (00:22:12):

And in the OECD,

Arthur (00:22:14):

Organizational Economic Cooperation and Development,

Arthur (00:22:16):

Turkey is one of the countries who subsidizes its agriculture heavily.

Asbed (00:22:20):

Yeah.

Arthur (00:22:21):

I think they are subsidizing 28%.

Arthur (00:22:26):

while Armenia pays pennies to Armenian farmers.

Arthur (00:22:32):

And they keep cutting back on assistance to the agriculture.

Arthur (00:22:36):

So the cheap Turkish potatoes, excuse me, tomatoes will enter Armenia.

Arthur (00:22:42):

They will force Armenian farmers out of the market.

Arthur (00:22:45):

They will force Armenian farmers to sell their land because they cannot find

Arthur (00:22:51):

markets and they have to feed their families.

Arthur (00:22:53):

The Turks will buy Armenian farmers

Arthur (00:22:56):

land,

Arthur (00:22:57):

maybe not directly,

Arthur (00:22:59):

but through their agents in Armenia,

Arthur (00:23:02):

and imagine what's going to happen next.

Arthur (00:23:03):

And then you know about the Turkish textile,

Arthur (00:23:06):

when Armenian textile companies will go out of the business,

Arthur (00:23:09):

in a short term,

Arthur (00:23:10):

in a short term,

Arthur (00:23:11):

yeah,

Arthur (00:23:12):

the consumers will benefit.

Arthur (00:23:14):

But when the Armenian farmers are out of the market,

Arthur (00:23:18):

and Turks control the Armenian agricultural lands,

Arthur (00:23:21):

imagine what's going to happen with the prices.

Arthur (00:23:24):

Let me give you a very

Arthur (00:23:26):

quick remark,

Arthur (00:23:27):

you remember that in 2021,

Arthur (00:23:29):

Armenia has imposed embargo against Turkish goods,

Arthur (00:23:32):

complete embargo.

Arthur (00:23:34):

And that sent an inquiry to the Ministry of Economy asking about the economic

Arthur (00:23:38):

impact of this embargo.

Arthur (00:23:40):

And they sent a beautiful letter proving statistically how Armenia benefited from embargo.

Arthur (00:23:49):

but local production was picking up import substitution by local manufacturers or

Arthur (00:23:56):

from providers from Italy,

Arthur (00:24:00):

Iran,

Arthur (00:24:01):

Belarus.

Arthur (00:24:03):

Okay, so I haven't,

Arthur (00:24:04):

back to your question,

Arthur (00:24:05):

I haven't seen and no one has ever seen any economically sound document proving

Arthur (00:24:12):

that opening up of the road between Nakhijevan and Azerbaijan will make Armenia

Arthur (00:24:19):

rich.

Arthur (00:24:20):

Other than that,

Arthur (00:24:21):

there is no discussion,

Arthur (00:24:23):

there is no agreement that Turkey will open up its border or Azerbaijan will allow

Arthur (00:24:29):

Armenian cars and Armenian cargo to cross through Azeri territory.

Arthur (00:24:36):

In the text of this Pashinyan Aliyev joint declaration witnessed by Trump, there is

Arthur (00:24:47):

clear passage saying that Azerbaijan gets an unhindered access.

Arthur (00:24:53):

Armenia gets mutual benefit.

Arthur (00:24:56):

What is mutual benefit?

Arthur (00:24:58):

No one knows.

Arthur (00:24:59):

But if it is a corridor for Armenians,

Arthur (00:25:03):

it shall be explicitly stated that Armenians will get a corridor through Nakhijevan

Arthur (00:25:09):

or through Azerbaijan to Russia or to Caspian Sea.

Hovik (00:25:15):

So Arthur, let's talk a little bit more about Trip, which we started earlier.

Hovik (00:25:19):

So a U.S.

Hovik (00:25:20):

State Department delegation led by Brendan Hanrahan,

Hovik (00:25:22):

who is a senior official in the Bureau of European and Eurasian Affairs,

Hovik (00:25:27):

visited Yerevan last week to announce a $145 million first tranche of American

Hovik (00:25:34):

funding for the trip,

Hovik (00:25:36):

also called the Trump route,

Hovik (00:25:37):

or what the Turks refer to as the Zangezur Corridor.

Asbed (00:25:40):

Or the Armenians refer to it as the crossroads of peace.

Hovik (00:25:44):

Yes, the crossroads of capitulation, if you ask me.

Hovik (00:25:46):

But...

Hovik (00:25:48):

What's interesting is that last week we were talking about how Russian Deputy Prime

Hovik (00:25:52):

Minister Overchuk was saying that there is not enough funding and it's unclear how

Hovik (00:25:57):

this project will be funded given the profitability constraints.

Hovik (00:26:00):

Well, it seems like the U.S.

Hovik (00:26:02):

State Department is stepping up.

Hovik (00:26:04):

At the August 8th ceremony in Washington, Trump

Hovik (00:26:08):

described this as a 99-year project, right?

Hovik (00:26:12):

And the U.S.

Hovik (00:26:13):

Ambassador to Turkey also said, Tom Barak also said that this was a 99-year project.

Hovik (00:26:18):

And in fact, he referred to it as a lease.

Hovik (00:26:21):

Now, Armenian officials,

Hovik (00:26:22):

and it's important to highlight,

Hovik (00:26:23):

Armenian officials have consistently denied that this trip is going to be a lease.

Hovik (00:26:30):

And they have also denied that it will be 99 years.

Hovik (00:26:34):

And

Hovik (00:26:37):

When the Memorandum of Understanding was published,

Hovik (00:26:39):

neither the words lease or the phrase 99 years appeared anywhere in the text.

Hovik (00:26:44):

In fact, nothing close to that.

Hovik (00:26:46):

Still, the size of this commitment for us raises questions.

Hovik (00:26:49):

How could the U.S.

Hovik (00:26:50):

commit $145 million to a project without understanding how it's going to recover its money?

Hovik (00:26:57):

The opposition, such as your party, have demanded clarity from the government, Arthur.

Hovik (00:27:02):

But so far, ordinary Armenian citizens remain in the dark.

Hovik (00:27:05):

So this is your opportunity to tell us what's really going on.

Hovik (00:27:11):

How will this Trump route operate, in your opinion?

Arthur (00:27:15):

Well, first of all, $175 million to develop.

Arthur (00:27:21):

Well, I think it doesn't matter.

Asbed (00:27:24):

Yeah, it doesn't matter how much it is.

Arthur (00:27:26):

Okay.

Arthur (00:27:27):

to build the road that links Azerbaijan to Nakhijevan

Arthur (00:27:33):

No single word about a penny to be paid to build,

Arthur (00:27:40):

reconstruct,

Arthur (00:27:41):

renew,

Arthur (00:27:42):

renovate a road that will be available to Armenians across to break the blockade

Arthur (00:27:53):

imposed against Armenia for 35 years already.

Arthur (00:27:56):

Okay, Americans can pay $5 billion to build this road 43 kilometers.

Arthur (00:28:03):

So what?

Arthur (00:28:04):

What I'm interested in is not connection between Nakhijevan and Azerbaijan.

Arthur (00:28:11):

I, as an Armenian citizen,

Arthur (00:28:13):

I'm interested in a road that will connect Armenia to outer world through Turkey or

Arthur (00:28:21):

through Azerbaijan.

Arthur (00:28:23):

More importantly, through Azerbaijan, because Turkey is not in this game.

Arthur (00:28:28):

Okay?

Arthur (00:28:29):

It's not in this game.

Arthur (00:28:30):

This means Americans or anyone else has to contribute money to help Armenians to

Arthur (00:28:39):

get either through Nakhijevan connecting Armenia's south to central Armenia,

Arthur (00:28:47):

but most importantly,

Arthur (00:28:49):

that will connect Armenia to outer world

Arthur (00:28:53):

Through Azerbaijan.

Arthur (00:28:55):

Either, I mentioned about that briefly, okay?

Arthur (00:28:58):

Through Ganzak to Russia or through Azerbaijan towards Caspian Sea and Far East.

Hovik (00:29:07):

Yeah, I mean, Ijevan, Ganzak on the Azerbaijani side, Ijevan on the Armenian side.

Arthur (00:29:11):

Ijevan, Ganzak, yeah.

Arthur (00:29:12):

Ijevan, Ganzak, Yevlakh, Ganzak, and so on.

Arthur (00:29:15):

So what is more relevant is that.

Arthur (00:29:18):

money spent in Armenia that will be used by Azeris?

Arthur (00:29:24):

Who cares?

Arthur (00:29:26):

And at the parliament, we try to understand what regime will work there.

Arthur (00:29:30):

Will Armenians be allowed to use this road or it is dedicated to Azeris only?

Arthur (00:29:39):

If Armenians are going to use two,

Arthur (00:29:41):

how these two,

Arthur (00:29:43):

you know, the Armenian and Azeris passengers will interact?

Arthur (00:29:47):

And by the way, what does unhindered mean?

Hovik (00:29:51):

Yeah, that was going to be our question.

Arthur (00:29:54):

I, as an Armenian,

Arthur (00:29:55):

and Armenia as a member of Eurasian Economic Union,

Arthur (00:29:59):

I cannot enter Russia unimpeded, or Belarus or Kazakhstan.

Arthur (00:30:05):

So this is the issue.

Arthur (00:30:07):

Second, about the duration of this project.

Arthur (00:30:10):

Trump spoke about special exclusive rights, development rights,

Arthur (00:30:14):

for 99 years that can be extended for another 99 years,

Arthur (00:30:18):

what has been published,

Arthur (00:30:19):

what has been shown to the public is a three-year project.

Arthur (00:30:24):

And by the way,

Arthur (00:30:25):

a couple of weeks ago,

Arthur (00:30:28):

Aliyev said,

Arthur (00:30:29):

if we were,

Arthur (00:30:30):

if it were up to us,

Arthur (00:30:31):

he would build the road is 43 kilometers in one year.

Arthur (00:30:36):

Since Armenians do not have that experience,

Arthur (00:30:38):

they don't have the capacity,

Arthur (00:30:39):

it will take them up to for three years.

Arthur (00:30:42):

So maybe,

Arthur (00:30:44):

A road will be constructed, a railway will be constructed in three years.

Arthur (00:30:48):

What's going to happen next?

Arthur (00:30:50):

Because if the United States invests money, they have to bring this money back.

Arthur (00:30:57):

If it's a business project, okay?

Arthur (00:31:00):

They will require, not concession, they will require special rights to operate through.

Arthur (00:31:10):

We don't mean you have a word in that?

Arthur (00:31:13):

I don't know.

Asbed (00:31:14):

I find it kind of crazy to sign a 99-year or 198-year agreement for a country

Asbed (00:31:20):

that's 35 years old,

Asbed (00:31:22):

doesn't have the maturity to control its own territories.

Arthur (00:31:26):

Interestingly, what Pashinyan said, this is fantastic.

Arthur (00:31:29):

He said,

Arthur (00:31:31):

in American legal language,

Arthur (00:31:35):

the word lease is equivalent to development rights in Armenia.

Arthur (00:31:43):

I said, come on, what are you talking about?

Arthur (00:31:45):

The breeds have leased Hong Kong from China for 99 years.

Arthur (00:31:50):

Leasing and development rights are completely different.

Asbed (00:31:53):

Completely different.

Asbed (00:31:54):

Arthur,

Asbed (00:31:55):

about unhindered communications,

Asbed (00:31:56):

which you discussed,

Asbed (00:31:58):

does it include illegal communications as well?

Asbed (00:32:03):

Illegal?

Asbed (00:32:04):

Of course.

Arthur (00:32:05):

What if Azerbaijan starts drug trafficking?

Asbed (00:32:10):

And yeah, I mean, this is a problem, right?

Asbed (00:32:13):

If they're drug running through it,

Asbed (00:32:14):

if they're running weapons and what have you,

Asbed (00:32:16):

does Armenia say,

Asbed (00:32:17):

well,

Asbed (00:32:18):

you know, it's unhindered.

Asbed (00:32:19):

It's not our problem.

Arthur (00:32:20):

If it's unhindered, this means everything is illegal.

Arthur (00:32:24):

Okay. If I cannot check the identity of a passenger, if I cannot check the cargo,

Arthur (00:32:31):

How can I say it's legal or illegal?

Hovik (00:32:34):

So let me give you also an example,

Hovik (00:32:35):

because Azerbaijan said that they're not going to see any Armenian when going

Hovik (00:32:39):

through Armenia.

Hovik (00:32:40):

And Pashinyan brought up the example of, you know, electronic means of checking verification.

Hovik (00:32:47):

But I, as a US citizen, I did this very recently, like two weeks ago.

Hovik (00:32:51):

I arrived in the United States.

Hovik (00:32:54):

It was a big surprise because there was electronic.

Hovik (00:32:56):

Everything was almost done electronic, except when I went to exit

Hovik (00:33:00):

security checkpoint there were two very armed and very big security guards whose

Hovik (00:33:08):

faces i had to see and um i'm pretty sure that you know i would not be allowed to

Hovik (00:33:14):

do that to to pass through if uh there's something wrong so i just don't understand

Hovik (00:33:19):

how this is supposed to work when they're saying that they're not going to see any

Hovik (00:33:22):

armenian

Hovik (00:33:24):

What happens if someone gets sick on this corridor going through Armenia?

Hovik (00:33:29):

What happens if someone is trafficking weapons or drugs?

Hovik (00:33:35):

What if it gets escalated?

Hovik (00:33:37):

Are we going to rely on U.S.

Hovik (00:33:39):

private military contractors to secure our border and secure things passing through Armenia?

Hovik (00:33:46):

How does that work?

Arthur (00:33:47):

This is a $145 million question actually.

Arthur (00:33:52):

This is what I talked about.

Arthur (00:33:54):

Okay, how are they going to handle that?

Arthur (00:33:57):

Even if you cross the border,

Arthur (00:33:59):

you know,

Arthur (00:34:00):

there's this rapid scanner scanner that you put your purse and there is someone

Arthur (00:34:05):

sitting physically in person from flesh and blood sitting there and asking,

Arthur (00:34:09):

what's that,

Arthur (00:34:10):

what's that, what's that?

Arthur (00:34:12):

Okay, imagine passenger train passes.

Arthur (00:34:16):

500 people in a train.

Arthur (00:34:18):

What are they going to do?

Arthur (00:34:19):

They're going to stop the train.

Arthur (00:34:20):

Everyone gets out.

Arthur (00:34:22):

pass through a corridor,

Arthur (00:34:25):

pass through the robots or what a drone is flying in the cars,

Arthur (00:34:31):

in the carriages.

Arthur (00:34:32):

How are they going to do that technically?

Arthur (00:34:35):

Okay, imagine a big, big cargo train.

Arthur (00:34:38):

How are they going to check what's in there?

Arthur (00:34:43):

So this is why I say that very responsibly,

Arthur (00:34:47):

that it's a corridor,

Arthur (00:34:49):

extraterritorial corridor,

Arthur (00:34:51):

that Azeris enter this corridor from Meghri,

Arthur (00:34:58):

and they get out on the Western border of Syrian region,

Arthur (00:35:02):

and the opposite way.

Arthur (00:35:03):

Otherwise, you cannot, okay, you just cannot imagine how the robots are going to check

Arthur (00:35:13):

People and cargo.

Arthur (00:35:15):

During the Key West,

Arthur (00:35:17):

launching corridor shall have,

Arthur (00:35:20):

shall be under the same jurisdiction as Artsakh.

Hovik (00:35:26):

Yeah, this was Key West for our listeners.

Hovik (00:35:27):

Key West was a proposed piece 3D where there was some exchange of corridors and

Hovik (00:35:35):

things like that. But this was in the 2000s.

Hovik (00:35:37):

2001, basically.

Arthur (00:35:39):

This is exchange of Artsakh with a corridor and a sovereign passage through Armenia.

Arthur (00:35:46):

The so-called global plan.

Arthur (00:35:47):

Well, I wouldn't call it global plan because global plan was territorial swap.

Arthur (00:35:52):

The final version of the document that was

Arthur (00:35:54):

put on Key West in Florida on the 5th of April was Azerbaijan passes a sovereignty

Arthur (00:36:04):

over Nagorno-Karabakh to Armenia, in exchange Armenia giving an unimpeded,

Arthur (00:36:09):

unimpeded sovereign passage to Azeris to link Azerbaijan with with Nakhijevan. OK.

Arthur (00:36:18):

or the jurisdiction of Latching Corridor was the same as jurisdiction of Artsakh

Arthur (00:36:24):

Okay, so there was no issue of checking the identity.

Arthur (00:36:28):

Here is another completely different thing, okay?

Arthur (00:36:32):

Or the second thing, are Armenians allowed to use that road?

Arthur (00:36:38):

Okay, so imagine I get to that road and I want to cross the border to go into Nakhijevan.

Arthur (00:36:46):

So Azeris will not be checked.

Arthur (00:36:48):

Will Armenians be checked?

(00:36:50):

And who would be checking?

Arthur (00:36:52):

Will Japanese be checked?

Arthur (00:36:54):

If Japanese are checked when they enter Armenia through Zvartnots airport or

Arthur (00:37:00):

Georgian border,

Arthur (00:37:01):

why shall not they be checked when they get into Armenia from Azerbaijan?

Hovik (00:37:08):

Arthur, one last question on this topic.

Hovik (00:37:10):

The Pashinyan team presents this as a great opportunity for Armenia to make money.

Hovik (00:37:18):

We know that yearly,

Hovik (00:37:19):

for instance,

Hovik (00:37:21):

the government of Panama receives billions of dollars for the Panama Canal.

Hovik (00:37:25):

So is this a Panama Canal for the Caucasus?

Hovik (00:37:29):

Will Armenians become rich from this corridor?

Arthur (00:37:34):

Well, the details of Panama Canal deal are clear.

Arthur (00:37:38):

details of this corridor are not clear at all back in 2001 24 years ago more than

Arthur (00:37:47):

24 that was i think in April or may 2001 pashinyan was suggesting giving corridor

Arthur (00:37:55):

to turks and Azerbaijan in exchange of money so if this is the case with Armenia

Arthur (00:38:04):

gets i don't know just just the uh there's a fees

Arthur (00:38:08):

Will it make Armenians rich?

Arthur (00:38:10):

I don't think so.

Arthur (00:38:11):

Because Turkey and Azerbaijan are,

Arthur (00:38:14):

you know,

Arthur (00:38:17):

you have to cross the Panama Canal,

Arthur (00:38:18):

okay,

Arthur (00:38:19):

to get from Pacific Ocean to the Atlantic Ocean.

Arthur (00:38:22):

Turks and Azeris have many ways to get connected to each other.

Arthur (00:38:27):

This one will be unhindered, but nevertheless, it's not the only canal.

Arthur (00:38:33):

It's not the only road.

Hovik (00:38:35):

But, I mean,

Hovik (00:38:36):

when you look at it, I think there are estimates that,

Hovik (00:38:38):

for instance, we can look at the analogy between,

Hovik (00:38:42):

in Georgia, right? There is this Baku-Tbilisi cars railway, and any estimate, I tried hard to find estimates.

Hovik (00:38:48):

There are no official estimates.

Arthur (00:38:49):

It's underutilized.

Arthur (00:38:50):

It's completely underutilized.

Hovik (00:38:51):

First of all,

Hovik (00:38:52):

it's underutilized, and second of all,

Hovik (00:38:53):

the revenue to Georgia has been on the order of hundreds of millions,

Hovik (00:38:58):

not billions of dollars.

Hovik (00:38:59):

That's what I was trying to get at.

Hovik (00:39:01):

That's true.

Arthur (00:39:02):

First of all,

Arthur (00:39:04):

Georgians had to borrow extensively to build their part of the road.

Arthur (00:39:10):

And Armenians have to do the same.

Arthur (00:39:11):

And an investor comes in and pays.

Arthur (00:39:14):

The investor shall get its money first.

Arthur (00:39:17):

So the investors will skim the milk.

Arthur (00:39:21):

What's there for Armenia?

Arthur (00:39:22):

I don't know.

Arthur (00:39:24):

Panama makes billions of dollars today.

Arthur (00:39:27):

But during the first years, they were not making anything.

Arthur (00:39:30):

The consortium will build

Arthur (00:39:33):

who built and operates a canal, was getting the money.

Arthur (00:39:36):

That's it.

Arthur (00:39:38):

So I really don't think it will make Armenians rich.

Arthur (00:39:42):

Like if the U.S., okay, if they give this $145 million, they have to get it back.

Arthur (00:39:50):

Okay?

Arthur (00:39:51):

You are, you know,

Arthur (00:39:52):

the American citizens will say,

Arthur (00:39:53):

you give,

Arthur (00:39:55):

you know, American taxpayers money to Armenia,

Arthur (00:39:58):

what you get instead,

Arthur (00:40:00):

what you get in return.

Asbed (00:40:03):

Arthur, for the sake of time, I need to move.

Asbed (00:40:05):

The defense ministry has drafted a bill to reduce mandatory military service from

Asbed (00:40:09):

24 months to 18 months.

Asbed (00:40:12):

Pashinyan has also announced that Armenia's defense budget will not be increased

Asbed (00:40:16):

and in fact is set to decrease in 2026.

Asbed (00:40:19):

He argued that the regional situation after August 8 allows for lower military

Asbed (00:40:24):

spending and he has already started redirecting funds towards refinancing parts of

Asbed (00:40:29):

the national debt.

Asbed (00:40:30):

What kind of peace is expected in the region or is it selling in the region when

Asbed (00:40:34):

every one of Armenia's neighbors is significantly increasing their military budget?

Asbed (00:40:40):

Azerbaijan, Georgia, Iran, Russia, and Turkey are all expanding their military spending in 2026.

Arthur (00:40:46):

Well,

Arthur (00:40:50):

when Germany was defeated and when Japan was defeated,

Arthur (00:40:54):

there were limitations on their armed forces.

Arthur (00:40:58):

even the Japanese constitution was changed to allow Japanese to use their military

Arthur (00:41:03):

forces outside of Japanese territory.

Arthur (00:41:06):

So this is a normal procedure when you sign a capitulation.

Arthur (00:41:12):

However,

Arthur (00:41:13):

today in Armenia,

Arthur (00:41:14):

Pashinyan denies that he has signed a capitulation and he says what happened was a

Arthur (00:41:21):

victory for Armenia and Armenia became an independent state.

Arthur (00:41:27):

Okay,

Arthur (00:41:28):

but Azerbaijan,

Arthur (00:41:30):

Aliyev many times has said they will not allow Armenia to restore its military

Arthur (00:41:38):

potential.

Arthur (00:41:39):

So this is another precondition.

Asbed (00:41:42):

And it's not written down because I don't believe that it's part of the agreement

Asbed (00:41:46):

or whatever they want to sign.

Arthur (00:41:48):

This is all behind the scenes.

Arthur (00:41:52):

That's all behind the scenes.

Arthur (00:41:53):

Remember, after this 44-day war, Armenia withdrew its forces for 60 kilometers.

Arthur (00:42:01):

Though the first point

Arthur (00:42:03):

of this trilateral declaration says the troops stop where they are as of 0-0

Arthur (00:42:11):

midnight of 10th of November.

Arthur (00:42:15):

And Pashinyan says this was an oral agreement.

Arthur (00:42:18):

And I think it's an oral agreement.

Arthur (00:42:20):

Or documents will be declassified like X years from today.

Arthur (00:42:26):

50 years from now.

Arthur (00:42:28):

Oh, 15. Yeah, 15.

Arthur (00:42:30):

I will not survive.

Arthur (00:42:32):

Anyway, but, okay, talking about this.

Arthur (00:42:36):

So reducing the military expenses is directly forced by Azerbaijan.

Arthur (00:42:43):

Azerbaijan itself says that they're going to spend billions to increase their

Arthur (00:42:49):

military potential,

Arthur (00:42:50):

but they don't allow our means to do that.

Arthur (00:42:53):

This is one thing.

Arthur (00:42:54):

The second, this is interesting.

Arthur (00:42:57):

The police forces were allowed to be used in the defense of the Armenian frontiers.

Arthur (00:43:06):

Now they changed the law.

Arthur (00:43:07):

The new National Guard is not allowed to serve on the borders.

Arthur (00:43:12):

Instead,

Arthur (00:43:13):

they serve in the Erevan downtown,

Arthur (00:43:15):

frightening the citizens and trying to frighten the opposition.

Arthur (00:43:21):

And I can't understand how the government is going to protect the borders.

Arthur (00:43:27):

Only relying on the Azeri and Turkish mercy,

Arthur (00:43:31):

this means they agreed to become Azerbaijan's marionette state.

Arthur (00:43:38):

If they do what Azerbaijan orders them to do peacefully without resistance,

Arthur (00:43:45):

of course there is no need to defend your borders because you do what you are

Arthur (00:43:49):

ordered to do.

Arthur (00:43:50):

But if you do what you are ordered to do,

Arthur (00:43:53):

means that you are a marionette state of Turkey and Azerbaijan.

Asbed (00:43:58):

Arthur,

Asbed (00:44:00):

as I mentioned,

Asbed (00:44:02):

Pashinen has started redirecting defense funds to refinancing some of the national

Asbed (00:44:08):

debt.

Asbed (00:44:09):

Has Armenia's national debt become a national security problem at this point?

Asbed (00:44:13):

Because first of all, over the past year, it has expanded by over $1.2 billion.

Asbed (00:44:19):

And some analysts,

Asbed (00:44:22):

some economists still think that it remains at acceptable levels as a percentage of

Asbed (00:44:28):

Armenia's GDP.

Asbed (00:44:29):

But of course,

Asbed (00:44:30):

it's a GDP number that includes hyper-inflated re-export figures from the height of

Asbed (00:44:35):

the Ukraine war.

Asbed (00:44:36):

And we've already seen in 2025, these re-exports tank.

Asbed (00:44:40):

They're at less than half and they're going down even further.

Asbed (00:44:44):

So probably next year's GDP is gonna be a lot smaller.

Asbed (00:44:48):

And so the debt to GDPs will suddenly skyrocket.

Arthur (00:44:52):

The growth rate of Armenia's economy has slowed down impressively, substantially.

Arthur (00:45:00):

You were right, the re-export to and re-import from Russia was the major force behind the Armenia's

Arthur (00:45:11):

impressive economic performance.

Arthur (00:45:13):

However, as of first half of this year,

Arthur (00:45:18):

The imports have reduced by more than 30%.

Arthur (00:45:24):

And the exports have reduced by more than 50%, I think about 52%, about $4 billion.

Arthur (00:45:31):

So the exports and imports have gone down.

Arthur (00:45:37):

The local production doesn't grow.

Arthur (00:45:41):

Armenia's economy relies,

Arthur (00:45:43):

or the growth of Armenian economy is attributed to non-exportable segments of

Arthur (00:45:51):

economy,

Arthur (00:45:52):

construction,

Arthur (00:45:54):

trade,

Arthur (00:45:56):

operations with real property,

Arthur (00:46:00):

and banking sector,

Arthur (00:46:03):

which is linked to construction because one-third of portfolio are mortgages.

Arthur (00:46:09):

So there are two economic risks.

Arthur (00:46:11):

First is the debt, is the government debt, because the growth rate of the GDP has gone down.

Arthur (00:46:24):

Other than that, Armenia's GDP is denominated in drums.

Arthur (00:46:30):

About 50% of Armenia's debt is in dollars.

Arthur (00:46:34):

So imagine what's going to happen if Armenian drum depreciates.

Arthur (00:46:41):

This means they have to keep Armenian drama expensive.

Arthur (00:46:45):

But when they keep Armenian drama expensive,

Arthur (00:46:48):

Armenian exports become expensive,

Arthur (00:46:51):

and the demand for Armenian exports have gone down.

Arthur (00:46:54):

So it's a vicious cycle that Pashinyan forced Armenia into for a very short-term economy growth.

Arthur (00:47:06):

stand and to tell 50 000 people trust Armenian government because 50 000 families

Arthur (00:47:12):

have signed up for a mortgage and have bought their apartments now there are two

Arthur (00:47:18):

minds under the Armenian economy and Armenian security i mean economic terms first

Arthur (00:47:24):

is debt government debt and second is highly inflated very risky bubble in the real

Arthur (00:47:33):

estate market now the prices

Arthur (00:47:36):

You know, the real estate are going down and number of transactions are going down.

Arthur (00:47:43):

So this means again, OK, I'm afraid the risk of Armenia passing through what the U.S.

Arthur (00:47:50):

has passed through 2008 and 2009 are very serious.

Arthur (00:47:56):

U.S. had resources to overcome.

Arthur (00:47:58):

Armenia doesn't have.

Asbed (00:48:00):

Yeah.

Asbed (00:48:01):

I want to remind our listeners that Arthur Khachatryan is an economist by profession.

Asbed (00:48:07):

So he's not blowing smoke when he's talking about these topics.

Asbed (00:48:12):

Arthur, we know that you have limited time.

Asbed (00:48:15):

Let's close on two questions.

Asbed (00:48:18):

And I want to go back to the defense budget.

Asbed (00:48:22):

Since June 2021, has Pashinyan actually spent the annual defense budget on defense?

Arthur (00:48:28):

well this is a issue uh i cannot speak about i cannot speak about because uh if you

Arthur (00:48:37):

want me to ask to tell what's in the press it's not interesting but i cannot tell

Arthur (00:48:43):

what is not in the press what i know because being a member of the parliament

Arthur (00:48:49):

entitles me to know something that is not for public years but i don't think that

Arthur (00:48:58):

the military power of Armenia has gone up.

Arthur (00:49:02):

The government says they spend money.

Arthur (00:49:04):

I don't know what is all the debtors,

Arthur (00:49:08):

okay,

Arthur (00:49:10):

how much they have transferred to India,

Arthur (00:49:12):

for instance,

Arthur (00:49:13):

how much they have received.

Arthur (00:49:16):

All I know that Armenia's military power is not increasing.

Arthur (00:49:21):

Armenia hasn't participated in one serious military exercise

Arthur (00:49:28):

during the last five years.

Arthur (00:49:31):

There were three Eagle partner military exercises with the U.S.

Arthur (00:49:35):

with National Guard from Arkansas.

Arthur (00:49:39):

But this is for peacekeeping operations.

Arthur (00:49:41):

And one of the components, I'm not sure about this year, but the last year was on crowd control.

Arthur (00:49:48):

You cannot have a strong army which doesn't participate in military exercises.

Asbed (00:49:54):

Yeah, the Kansas National Guard was training them.

Asbed (00:49:57):

I think one year was on field hospitals and one year was crowd control.

Asbed (00:50:02):

So it was actually more National Guard stuff, which would be applicable to the Armenian police.

Arthur (00:50:06):

Yeah, but this is not new.

Arthur (00:50:08):

This is not new.

Arthur (00:50:09):

Like the Kansas National Guard was cooperating with the Armenian Ministry of Emergencies.

Asbed (00:50:16):

20 years ago.

Arthur (00:50:17):

Yeah, if not 20, at least 15.

Arthur (00:50:19):

Like.

Arthur (00:50:21):

When I was a governor in Shirok,

Arthur (00:50:23):

there were exercises between Ministry of Emergency Situation and the National

Arthur (00:50:30):

Guard.

Asbed (00:50:31):

In 2021, the estimate for the Armenian army was about 50,000 troops and the police was

Asbed (00:50:38):

12,000 or so in the country.

Asbed (00:50:40):

What are either your official or estimated numbers that you know of today?

Arthur (00:50:46):

I don't know the number, well,

Arthur (00:50:49):

I cannot speak about the numbers.

Arthur (00:50:51):

I cannot speak about the numbers.

Asbed (00:50:53):

Is it classified or do you not know?

Arthur (00:50:57):

Well, I'm not sure whether it's classified or not.

Arthur (00:51:04):

Okay. So if I speak, it can happen that its quality is classified.

Arthur (00:51:08):

But again, let me repeat.

Arthur (00:51:12):

Previously, the police forces

Arthur (00:51:15):

were allowed to be engaged, involved in the defense of the borders, of the frontiers.

Arthur (00:51:20):

Today,

Arthur (00:51:21):

they changed the law and the National Guard is not allowed to be engaged for the

Arthur (00:51:28):

defense of the frontiers.

Arthur (00:51:30):

So this means the potential number of servicemen who could be engaged has gone down.

Arthur (00:51:41):

Second, okay, the police...

Arthur (00:51:44):

has several structural units.

Arthur (00:51:47):

Okay, like criminal police, community police.

Arthur (00:51:51):

Previously, we had these police maneuver.

Asbed (00:51:53):

There's the NSS,

Asbed (00:51:54):

there's the investigative body,

Asbed (00:51:56):

there's the red berries,

Asbed (00:51:57):

the purple berries,

Asbed (00:51:58):

the blue berries.

Hovik (00:52:00):

I'm confused with all these subdivisions.

Hovik (00:52:03):

The NSS is not a subdivision of the Ministry of Internal Affairs.

Arthur (00:52:06):

Yes, and the investigative committee is not subdivision, no.

Arthur (00:52:10):

We had also the policemen who were basically working as security forces in the

Arthur (00:52:15):

buildings,

Arthur (00:52:16):

okay, providing internal security for government buildings and so on and so forth.

Arthur (00:52:20):

And also we had the National Guard police troops, and we also have riot police.

Arthur (00:52:32):

What I see on the street, maybe the number of police itself is...

Arthur (00:52:39):

The same, but there is a change in the composition, okay?

Arthur (00:52:44):

Obviously, more special forces, more riot police.

Arthur (00:52:50):

And also, again, I'm repeating this for the fifth time, but it's very important.

Arthur (00:52:55):

Change of the mission of the police troops.

Arthur (00:52:59):

So Pashinyan uses police as a club in his hand to frighten the people and to threat

Arthur (00:53:07):

the opposition.

Asbed (00:53:10):

Did these special troops that we're talking about, special forces, come from army troops?

Asbed (00:53:17):

Or are they newly trained, completely new workers in the workforce?

Arthur (00:53:22):

I don't know.

Arthur (00:53:24):

I don't know. Maybe retired soldiers, maybe.

Arthur (00:53:28):

I'm not sure.

Arthur (00:53:29):

But they are not 18, 20 years, obviously.

Arthur (00:53:32):

Some of the police troops are just young people.

Arthur (00:53:37):

Are they 21 or 19? I don't know.

Arthur (00:53:40):

And usually they are not talkative.

Arthur (00:53:42):

But we can see red berets.

Arthur (00:53:43):

We can see black berets.

Arthur (00:53:45):

We can see the camouflaged police troops.

Arthur (00:53:49):

We can see the fat policemen on the streets.

Arthur (00:53:54):

Absolutely worthless.

Asbed (00:53:56):

Okay, let's end our topics here.

Asbed (00:53:58):

I'd like to ask each of you if you have a thought you would like to share with our listeners.

Asbed (00:54:02):

Let's start with you, Hovig, this time.

Hovik (00:54:04):

So let me paint the scene.

Hovik (00:54:07):

After the complete ethnic cleansing of Artsakh,

Hovik (00:54:09):

there are about 15 to 20 Armenians left in Nagorno-Karabakh or Artsakh,

Hovik (00:54:16):

and mostly in Stepanakert.

Hovik (00:54:18):

Most of these are elderly, mentally ill people,

Hovik (00:54:22):

who don't have a family and don't have, you know, and I assume that's it, basically.

Hovik (00:54:28):

People who couldn't easily move to Armenia and they decided to stay.

Hovik (00:54:34):

So,

Hovik (00:54:35):

Azerbaijan published stories about this terrorist,

Hovik (00:54:38):

so-called terrorist,

Hovik (00:54:39):

an Armenian by the name of Karen Avanesyan.

Hovik (00:54:43):

Yeah, Avanesyan.

Hovik (00:54:48):

And he's known,

Hovik (00:54:49):

and there has been video reports about him,

Hovik (00:54:52):

he's known to feed stray cats in Stepanakert.

Hovik (00:54:55):

And he has had mental issues in the past,

Hovik (00:54:57):

he has had schizophrenia,

Hovik (00:54:58):

so I'm pretty sure he didn't go to the army.

Hovik (00:55:01):

And Azerbaijan would like us to believe that this person got grenades hidden

Hovik (00:55:06):

somehow in the forest.

Hovik (00:55:08):

He got guns and shot at Azerbaijanis and as a result he was shot.

Hovik (00:55:17):

And Azerbaijan is presenting this internally as an anti-terrorist event.

Hovik (00:55:22):

But I just want to say, you know, Lindsey Snell has published video interviews of him.

Hovik (00:55:28):

And I think that this is just another instance of Azerbaijan basically keeping

Hovik (00:55:35):

anti-Armenian haters alive.

Hovik (00:55:36):

And it's just hard to imagine the situation of all these handful of Armenians left in Artsakh.

Hovik (00:55:42):

And the amount of scrutiny,

Hovik (00:55:45):

the amount of oppression,

Hovik (00:55:47):

even those who decided to cooperate and remain behind are going through right now.

Asbed (00:55:52):

And if you ask questions as to how he died, why he was killed, you'll be a revanchist.

Asbed (00:55:57):

Yeah, he was not killed.

Asbed (00:55:58):

He was shot.

Asbed (00:55:59):

But as far as I know, he was not killed.

Asbed (00:56:01):

Ovi, can we put the links in the show notes to Lindsay Snell's material?

Arthur (00:56:06):

Well, basically, when Artsakh sees

Arthur (00:56:09):

spoke about their right of return,

Arthur (00:56:11):

Azari staged this show to so,

Arthur (00:56:14):

you know,

Arthur (00:56:15):

to prove that there's a threat from arts activists from Armenians and they will not

Arthur (00:56:19):

allow Armenians to return home.

Arthur (00:56:21):

So this is the whole issue.

Arthur (00:56:22):

Otherwise,

Arthur (00:56:24):

you know, you cannot believe that someone who is walking freely in the streets of Stepanaket,

Arthur (00:56:29):

he goes, he takes his Kalashnikov gun,

Arthur (00:56:31):

he takes,

Arthur (00:56:32):

you know, hand grenades,

Arthur (00:56:33):

throws them at the police.

Arthur (00:56:34):

And so it's a complete, excuse my French, it's a,

Arthur (00:56:39):

Bull excrement.

Arthur (00:56:41):

I want to talk about the internal Armenian policy.

Arthur (00:56:44):

Pashinyan being a defeatist towards Azerbaijan,

Arthur (00:56:52):

who is ready to go to any type of unilateral concession to Azerbaijan,

Arthur (00:56:57):

has become a real tyrant in Armenia.

Arthur (00:57:01):

His recent statement, I'm the government, shows that this person has maniacal power grip.

Arthur (00:57:08):

And we are seeing a raise of an Armenian tyrant.

Arthur (00:57:14):

And we have a very critical situation in Armenia.

Arthur (00:57:18):

Threat from Azerbaijan and having a despot, a tyrant inside Armenia.

Arthur (00:57:26):

And Pashina is a threat to the country because of his paranoia power grip and

Arthur (00:57:33):

because of his willingness to go to any concession

Arthur (00:57:38):

to have, you know, to stay in power.

Arthur (00:57:41):

So this is why he shall be sent home.

Arthur (00:57:46):

I'm talking about all possible legal means.

Asbed (00:57:52):

Thank you, Arthur, for your thoughts.

Asbed (00:57:54):

Thanks for joining us.

Asbed (00:57:55):

We appreciate your time.

Arthur (00:57:56):

Pleasure is all mine.

Arthur (00:57:58):

We'll talk to you soon.

Arthur (00:58:00):

Always a pleasure.

Arthur (00:58:02):

Bye.

Hovik (00:58:07):

Okay, Aspet.

Hovik (00:58:08):

Well,

Hovik (00:58:10):

it's time to talk about things that are either too weird or too corrupt to leave

Hovik (00:58:15):

out of the show.

Hovik (00:58:17):

So remember how last week we joked about the foreign minister, Ararat Mirzoyan.

Hovik (00:58:22):

Soon he might need to change his first name to Aragaz because Turkey is very

Hovik (00:58:27):

sensitive to anything related to Ararat.

Hovik (00:58:31):

The joke is on us.

Hovik (00:58:32):

Yes,

Hovik (00:58:33):

this government has decided that on September 11th to amend a previous decision

Hovik (00:58:40):

from 2011 on border stamps.

Hovik (00:58:43):

Essentially, it's a decision that defines on how border stamps will look.

Hovik (00:58:47):

And conveniently, this was not...

Hovik (00:58:51):

There was no explanation given on why this decision was being made.

Hovik (00:58:55):

So people had to actually pull out the previous decision and compare it.

Hovik (00:59:00):

And interestingly, the main thing missing from this version is Mount Arad.

Hovik (00:59:06):

So we are one step closer to fulfilling Turkish demands.

Hovik (00:59:10):

And people are saying this is a minor thing, but...

Hovik (00:59:14):

It's not going to end with border stamps, obviously.

Hovik (00:59:16):

It's going to include the coat of arms and it's going to include anything official

Hovik (00:59:21):

in the government of Armenia that has the word Arat or the imagery of Arat on it.

Hovik (00:59:28):

The only question to ask is which one will be next?

Hovik (00:59:31):

Maybe they will even ban the name Ararat in reality from being given to children.

Hovik (00:59:37):

So we'll see.

Asbed (00:59:38):

Well, listen, if I were to ever become president of Armenia, that's coming right back.

Hovik (00:59:44):

Okay, all these... Well, you're not the only one, Asbed.

Hovik (00:59:46):

So let's just,

Hovik (00:59:47):

you know,

Hovik (00:59:48):

I think about 85% of Armenians feel this way,

Hovik (00:59:52):

but, you know,

Hovik (00:59:53):

we live in an occupational regime.

Hovik (00:59:54):

I think it's important to state that.

Asbed (00:59:57):

Well, okay, from one joke to another, Hovik.

Asbed (01:00:00):

Remember how we used to make fun of Lilit Makunts,

Asbed (01:00:03):

Pashinyan's former English tutor turned Armenia's ambassador to the US?

Asbed (01:00:07):

Be careful what you laugh at because the sequel is here.

Asbed (01:00:11):

On September 1,

Asbed (01:00:12):

Narek Mkrtchyan became the new ambassador to Washington,

Asbed (01:00:15):

arguably the most prestigious diplomatic post one can get.

Asbed (01:00:20):

And by September 4,

Asbed (01:00:21):

his brother Mkrtich Mkrtchyan was already in handcuffs,

Asbed (01:00:25):

arrested for drug trafficking and illegal arms possession.

Asbed (01:00:28):

Except when they searched him, nothing turned up.

Asbed (01:00:32):

A passenger conveniently bolted and is now wanted.

Asbed (01:00:35):

They can't find the guy.

Asbed (01:00:36):

Presumably, he also carried off some kind of an incriminating stash.

Asbed (01:00:41):

They found little parts here and there,

Asbed (01:00:43):

but there's no sign of him yet,

Asbed (01:00:44):

and there's no sign of the stash.

Asbed (01:00:47):

But it gets better.

Asbed (01:00:48):

A video then surfaced showing Mkrtchyan swinging at the cops and resisting arrest.

Asbed (01:00:54):

And was that on the chart sheet?

Asbed (01:00:58):

Let me guess, no.

Asbed (01:00:59):

Not really.

Asbed (01:01:01):

In the end, he walked away with house arrest for weapons possessions.

Asbed (01:01:05):

What can you contrast that with for the opposition people who get arrested?

Asbed (01:01:09):

Because if you're an opposition member and you dare say that you're going to defend

Asbed (01:01:14):

the church in your own way,

Asbed (01:01:16):

you get solitary confinement in the KGB cells.

Asbed (01:01:19):

But if you're tied to the ruling circle and get nabbed for weapons and maybe drugs

Asbed (01:01:24):

and even throw a few punches at the police,

Asbed (01:01:27):

Don't sweat it. Just make sure you never use the words in our own way.

Hovik (01:01:31):

Yeah.

Hovik (01:01:32):

You know, I have to say,

Hovik (01:01:33):

I used to think that being a foreign diplomat in Armenia and having to write one of

Hovik (01:01:39):

those, you know, those regular cables back home on what's happening in Armenia was probably the most

Hovik (01:01:45):

boring job in the world.

Hovik (01:01:48):

We know some of our listeners probably fit in that category.

Hovik (01:01:51):

But hey,

Hovik (01:01:52):

at least,

Hovik (01:01:53):

you know, writing about this,

Hovik (01:01:54):

I'm sure you didn't need any extra coffee to get you going through your day.

Hovik (01:01:57):

So...

Hovik (01:01:59):

Okay, so I want to talk about, we didn't talk about this last week.

Hovik (01:02:05):

So September 2 was the Day of Independence for the Republic of Artsakh,

Hovik (01:02:12):

or the Republic of Nagorno-Karabakh.

Hovik (01:02:14):

And on this anniversary,

Hovik (01:02:15):

a monument was opened at Yarablur,

Hovik (01:02:18):

which is the military cemetery in Armenia.

Hovik (01:02:22):

A monument dedicated to Artsakh.

Hovik (01:02:25):

Now according to Artur Vanetsyan who was the benefactor,

Hovik (01:02:27):

he's an opposition member but also he bankrolled this effort.

Hovik (01:02:35):

The government tried everything they could to prevent this monument from being erected.

Hovik (01:02:41):

And then when they couldn't prevent Artur Vanetsyan from erecting this monument,

Hovik (01:02:46):

they basically just turned off the power during the ceremony of the unveiling of

Hovik (01:02:52):

the monument.

Asbed (01:02:53):

That's a really good use for having control of the electric network of Armenia.

Hovik (01:02:58):

Yes, exactly right.

Asbed (01:03:01):

So by extension,

Asbed (01:03:03):

Hovig, at this point,

Asbed (01:03:04):

since Pashinyan controls the ENA,

Asbed (01:03:07):

which he stole from Samvel Karapetyan,

Asbed (01:03:10):

if you happen to be an opposition member,

Asbed (01:03:12):

your lights could be turned off.

Hovik (01:03:15):

Literally, yes.

Hovik (01:03:17):

Yeah, literally, absolutely.

Hovik (01:03:20):

Good luck with your anything.

Hovik (01:03:21):

Yeah.

Hovik (01:03:24):

Another news, Yerevan to Kapan flies.

Hovik (01:03:26):

Remember how this regime said that they finally restored air communication between

Hovik (01:03:32):

the capital and Kapan?

Asbed (01:03:35):

Yeah, even Pashinyan flew to Kapan one time, I think.

Hovik (01:03:38):

Yeah.

Hovik (01:03:39):

And that one time that he flew, his plane or the airport was shot at.

Hovik (01:03:45):

But anyway,

Hovik (01:03:46):

so ever since they started this NovAir airline that so far in 2025 has carried just

Hovik (01:03:53):

about 2,000 passengers.

Hovik (01:03:56):

And it was a brand new airplane.

Hovik (01:03:58):

Well, now they're pausing flights from Yerevan to Kapan.

Hovik (01:04:02):

In fact, this flight was the only internal Armenian flight.

Hovik (01:04:06):

There is no flight between Yerevan and Gyumri for whatever reason.

Hovik (01:04:09):

So this was the only flight in Armenia.

Hovik (01:04:11):

And it's very difficult to get to Kapan.

Hovik (01:04:13):

And now they're pausing the flight.

Hovik (01:04:15):

And the official reasoning is that the airplane, this brand new airplane that they purchased,

Hovik (01:04:22):

probably a year ago or even less, needs to undergo repairs.

Hovik (01:04:27):

And what's also interesting is that just a month ago,

Hovik (01:04:30):

they were boasting about buying another airplane.

Hovik (01:04:33):

But to be honest,

Hovik (01:04:34):

with just 2,000 passengers,

Hovik (01:04:37):

I don't know how many airplanes can they buy to justify,

Hovik (01:04:40):

to make a profit.

Asbed (01:04:42):

Any kind of a way to measure what that means, whether 2000 is too many or too little?

Asbed (01:04:48):

I mean, we're talking about Yerevan to Gabon.

Hovik (01:04:51):

Honestly, I simply do not know.

Hovik (01:04:54):

Yeah, it's like 100 bucks.

Hovik (01:04:55):

I mean, right, probably,

Hovik (01:04:56):

or I mean,

Hovik (01:04:57):

I don't think normal Armenians would pay more than that for an internal Armenian

Hovik (01:05:00):

flight.

Hovik (01:05:01):

So 2,000 times 100, that's like $200,000, just, you know, revenue this year.

Hovik (01:05:09):

So obviously,

Hovik (01:05:11):

this airline was going to rely on,

Hovik (01:05:14):

I don't know how many years it would have to fly to make a profit.

Hovik (01:05:16):

And that's what I'm saying, like, I don't know if they can even get a second airplane.

Asbed (01:05:22):

So since you have done that road, how long does it take to drive from Yerevan to Kapan?

Asbed (01:05:28):

And I assume it's probably going to take half an hour to fly there.

Hovik (01:05:32):

If you're a highest on-sea driver,

Hovik (01:05:34):

probably like you will get there in four hours if you get there,

Hovik (01:05:38):

if you don't crash.

Hovik (01:05:40):

And if you drive with like,

Hovik (01:05:41):

you know,

Hovik (01:05:42):

normal, like if you're used to four roads and like me,

Hovik (01:05:46):

and if you drive there,

Hovik (01:05:47):

probably take you five to six hours with some stops on the way.

Hovik (01:05:51):

But what's interesting is also this,

Hovik (01:05:53):

we mentioned that this airport,

Hovik (01:05:54):

one of the questions that I want to ask is,

Hovik (01:05:56):

why are so few people,

Hovik (01:05:58):

given it's such an arduous and torturing road,

Hovik (01:06:01):

why aren't more people paying for the flights?

Hovik (01:06:04):

Like, for instance, let me...

Hovik (01:06:07):

Let me say for myself,

Hovik (01:06:08):

you know, I would not feel safe,

Hovik (01:06:10):

for instance,

Hovik (01:06:11):

landing in an airport that is 50 meters away from an Azerbaijani post.

Hovik (01:06:16):

And I want to take this time to remind our listeners how we got here,

Hovik (01:06:21):

because in 2020,

Hovik (01:06:23):

in the end of November 9,

Hovik (01:06:25):

even on November 9,

Hovik (01:06:27):

when they signed the ceasefire,

Hovik (01:06:30):

Azerbaijani troops were tens of kilometers away from the Kapan airport.

Hovik (01:06:36):

But based on so-called verbal agreements that Pashinyan has conceded,

Hovik (01:06:39):

he participated in,

Hovik (01:06:41):

they allowed Azerbaijanis to move all the way to the former Soviet borders and

Hovik (01:06:48):

sometimes even inside Soviet borders

Hovik (01:06:50):

And essentially now we have Azerbaijani soldiers perched 50 meters above the

Hovik (01:06:58):

airport at a,

Hovik (01:06:59):

you know,

Hovik (01:07:00):

and they have a higher vantage point so they can target anything moving in Kapan

Hovik (01:07:04):

essentially.

Asbed (01:07:06):

Yeah, that's a lot of fun.

Asbed (01:07:08):

I don't know.

Asbed (01:07:09):

I don't know if I would take a flight to a place like that.

Asbed (01:07:11):

I mean, it's so unpredictable.

Hovik (01:07:14):

Maybe that's the reason they had 2000 passengers this year so far.

Asbed (01:07:18):

Do you think they would have more, honestly?

Hovik (01:07:22):

I think that the number of passengers that drive to Kapan is much more.

Hovik (01:07:25):

So yes.

Hovik (01:07:26):

And if I got a taxi, I would have to pay probably 20,000 drums for the taxi to drive me there.

Hovik (01:07:34):

For a one-way trip.

Hovik (01:07:36):

for a one-way trip.

Hovik (01:07:37):

So I would assume that if this was much shorter flight,

Hovik (01:07:42):

much more convenient,

Hovik (01:07:43):

and much more secure,

Hovik (01:07:45):

at least the tourist traffic would be tremendous there.

Hovik (01:07:49):

There's a lot of touristic sites.

Hovik (01:07:50):

The only reason why there aren't so many tourists in Kapan is because it takes so

Hovik (01:07:54):

long to get there.

Hovik (01:07:55):

So if you're going to Armenia for two,

Hovik (01:07:56):

three days,

Hovik (01:07:57):

sometimes it doesn't make sense to go to Kapan because you can easily spend two,

Hovik (01:08:02):

three days in Syunik.

Asbed (01:08:05):

Yeah.

Hovik (01:08:06):

Okay. Well,

Asbed (01:08:06):

that's interesting because on a monthly basis,

Asbed (01:08:09):

we hear that there are tourists visiting Armenia to the tune of,

Asbed (01:08:13):

let's say,

Asbed (01:08:14):

a couple of hundred thousand people.

Asbed (01:08:16):

So all year there's been only 2,000 trips.

Asbed (01:08:19):

That's not a lot.

Asbed (01:08:20):

Well, that was our weekend review recorded on September 15, 2025.

Asbed (01:08:27):

We've been talking with Mr.

Asbed (01:08:29):

Arthur Khachatryan,

Asbed (01:08:30):

who is an MP from the Hayastan Dashinq,

Asbed (01:08:32):

the Armenia Alliance.

Asbed (01:08:34):

He's also a member of the Armenian Revolutionary Federation, the ARF Dashnaktsutun.

Asbed (01:08:39):

In the past, he has held government posts such as Deputy Minister of Territorial Administration

Asbed (01:08:44):

and Development,

Asbed (01:08:45):

Governor of Shirak,

Asbed (01:08:47):

and Minister of Agriculture.

Hovik (01:08:49):

Folks, let us know how we're doing in the comments.

Hovik (01:08:53):

And if you think we're doing especially good, then let us know also financially if you can.

Hovik (01:08:58):

That's podcasts.groong.org.

Hovik (01:09:01):

One last request.

Hovik (01:09:02):

If you want to contribute sweat equity instead of your own finance,

Hovik (01:09:06):

you can open up Apple Podcasts.

Hovik (01:09:10):

You can also do that on your MacBook, not just your phone.

Hovik (01:09:13):

And make sure you subscribe to us and rate us on that platform because we are being

Hovik (01:09:18):

seriously hidden from the view on that platform specifically.

Asbed (01:09:24):

Thank you, everyone.

Asbed (01:09:25):

I'm Asbed Bedrossian in Los Angeles.

Hovik (01:09:28):

And I'm Hovik Manucharyan in Los Angeles currently.

Asbed (01:09:31):

Talk to you next week.

Hovik (01:09:33):

Bye-bye.

People on this episode

Head Shot

Asbed Bedrossian

Co-host
Head Shot

Hovik Manucharyan

Co-host
Head Shot

Arthur Khachatryan

Guest

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