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Pietro Shakarian - Anastas Mikoyan, an Armenian Reformer in Khrushchev’s Kremlin | Ep 480, Oct 22, 2025

• Armenian News Network / Groong • Episode 480

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Anastas Mikoyan, an Armenian Reformer in Khrushchev’s Kremlin

Dr. Pietro Shakarian explains the core arguments and new archival findings behind his book on Anastas Mikoyan. We cover Mikoyan’s effort to devolve power inside the USSR during Khrushchev’s constitutional reform drive, what a confederal model could have meant, and why it stalled. We discuss Mikoyan’s role in Armenia’s cultural thaw, including rehabilitations tied to his 1954 Yerevan speech. Shakarian details his research trail across Russian and Armenian archives, 1960s Artsakh petitions, Mikoyan’s stance toward the Armenian Church, and how his Armenian identity surfaced during Cold War crises.

Topics

  • Research journey, archives Moscow and Yerevan
  • Mikoyan’s vision of confederation for the USSR
  • Artsakh’s status within Soviet constraints
  • De-Stalinization and Armenia’s cultural thaw
  • Mikoyan’s stance toward the Armenian Church

Guest

Hosts

Key Questions Discussed

  • How far did Khrushchev’s reforms move the USSR toward a confederation, and why did it fail in practice
  • What “radical devolution of powers” would mean for union and republic relations
  • Which Armenian writers and officials were affected by post-Stalin rehabilitations
  • What new evidence from Moscow and Yerevan archives changes prior scholarship
  • How Mikoyan’s Armenian identity and stance toward the Church shaped decisions and relationships

Referenced Articles and Sources

  • Anastas Mikoyan, an Armenian Reformer in Khrushchev’s Kremlin – Amazon
  • Prior Groong episode with Pietro Shakarian (Episode 28)

Episode 480 | Recorded: October 18, 2025

https://podcasts.groong.org/480


Subscribe and follow us everywhere you are: linktr.ee/groong

Asbed (00:00:06):

Hello, everyone, and welcome to this Conversations on Groong episode.

Asbed (00:00:10):

Dr. Pietro Shakarian joins us today.

Asbed (00:00:12):

He is a historian of Russia, Armenia, and the Soviet Union, currently based in Yerevan.

Asbed (00:00:17):

And we will be discussing his book on Anastas Mikoyan,

Asbed (00:00:21):

which was the culmination of his research in Soviet history and archives.

Asbed (00:00:26):

We have actually done a full episode on Mikoyan with Dr. Shakarian way back in December of 2020.

Asbed (00:00:31):

That was episode 28, so please check that out.

Asbed (00:00:35):

This episode,

Asbed (00:00:36):

we are recording it on October 18,

Asbed (00:00:39):

and we will be publishing it on October 21,

Asbed (00:00:42):

the 47th anniversary of Mikoyan's passing.

Hovik (00:00:46):

And before we go to Pietro, a quick message to our listeners.

Hovik (00:00:49):

Thank you for following us.

Hovik (00:00:51):

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Hovik (00:00:56):

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Hovik (00:00:58):

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Hovik (00:01:08):

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Hovik (00:01:37):

Thank you, and on to the show.

Asbed (00:01:39):

Dr. Pietro Shakarian, welcome to the Group Podcast.

Pietro (00:01:43):

Asbed, Hovik, it's great to be here, as always.

Pietro (00:01:46):

Barev, barev.

Asbed (00:01:50):

Looking forward to our conversation.

Hovik (00:01:52):

Yeah.

Hovik (00:01:53):

Thank you for writing the book, Anastas Mikoyan, an Armenian reformer in Khrushchev's Kremlin.

Hovik (00:01:59):

Congratulations on getting it published.

Hovik (00:02:01):

Tell us a little bit more about your research and the joys of publishing.

Pietro (00:02:08):

Well, the joys of publishing.

Pietro (00:02:10):

Well, those are almost like two separate questions.

Pietro (00:02:12):

So first, let me just,

Pietro (00:02:13):

you know, address first and foremost the research aspect of this,

Pietro (00:02:17):

because the research aspect,

Pietro (00:02:18):

this book came in like two phases.

Pietro (00:02:21):

I mean, this book is really based on my dissertation from The Ohio State University.

Pietro (00:02:27):

Right.

Pietro (00:02:28):

Which I got my Ph.D.

Pietro (00:02:30):

in 2021 from Ohio State.

Pietro (00:02:33):

And I actually completed most of my dissertation during the COVID-19 pandemic.

Pietro (00:02:39):

And that was actually what happened was I was doing research in Moscow and I had to

Pietro (00:02:44):

get home early because of,

Pietro (00:02:46):

you know,

Pietro (00:02:47):

the COVID was really getting intense everywhere in the world.

Pietro (00:02:52):

And I actually applied for a Gulbenkian foundation,

Pietro (00:02:57):

a dissertation completion grant,

Pietro (00:02:59):

which I received.

Pietro (00:03:01):

And so for the year of 2020,

Pietro (00:03:06):

2021, I was basically at home,

Pietro (00:03:08):

you know, basically turning my research into a dissertation.

Pietro (00:03:11):

So the first phase was the dissertation.

Pietro (00:03:14):

And then the book was built on that work.

Pietro (00:03:19):

The research involved research in the Russian archives in Moscow,

Pietro (00:03:26):

also the Armenian archives in Yerevan.

Pietro (00:03:29):

Right now, when I talk about the Russian archives,

Pietro (00:03:32):

We use this phrase like Russian archives.

Pietro (00:03:34):

It's like this kind of broad catch-all term.

Pietro (00:03:36):

But really,

Pietro (00:03:37):

there are major Russian federal archives in Moscow,

Pietro (00:03:40):

which are huge,

Pietro (00:03:42):

which are enormous.

Pietro (00:03:45):

And they have the Russian State Archive of Social Political History.

Pietro (00:03:49):

This is also known as RGASPI.

Pietro (00:03:51):

This is the short name for it.

Pietro (00:03:52):

Also, the Gosudarstvennyi Arkhiv, the State Archive, which is known as GARF.

Pietro (00:03:59):

And also the State Archive of Contemporary History,

Pietro (00:04:03):

which is known as RGANI,

Pietro (00:04:05):

and the State Archive of Literature and Art,

Pietro (00:04:07):

RGALI,

Pietro (00:04:08):

which I also worked in because there was some material related to Charents and

Pietro (00:04:14):

rehabilitation of writers and all this.

Pietro (00:04:16):

And so I was also in that archive, too.

Pietro (00:04:18):

Now,

Pietro (00:04:19):

in Yerevan,

Pietro (00:04:20):

I was in... Now,

Pietro (00:04:21):

the Armenian archives are not so,

Pietro (00:04:23):

you know, divided into,

Pietro (00:04:25):

like, major,

Pietro (00:04:26):

like,

Pietro (00:04:27):

separate archives.

Pietro (00:04:28):

Really what we're talking about are kind of like branches of a whole archive.

Pietro (00:04:31):

So I worked mostly in the central archive of the Armenian archives on Kochar Street

Pietro (00:04:38):

here in Yerevan.

Pietro (00:04:39):

And I also worked at the social political archive on Bagramian Avenue,

Pietro (00:04:45):

which back in the day in the Soviet times was known as the party archive.

Pietro (00:04:49):

And so those were the archives I worked in Yerevan.

Pietro (00:04:52):

In addition, I also worked with memoirs from Soviet Armenian officials in the Armenian language.

Pietro (00:04:58):

So officials like Anton Kochinyan and Yeghishe Asatryan,

Pietro (00:05:02):

they actually devoted entire chapters to Mikoyan's work in Armenia.

Pietro (00:05:06):

which actually those chapters that information in those books could be corroborated

Pietro (00:05:12):

by what i actually found in GARF in the state archive in in Moscow and also in yeah

Pietro (00:05:18):

and also i also wanted just to mention this really too if i may uh the the role of

Pietro (00:05:22):

libraries in this so i worked uh you know i worked in the Russian national library

Pietro (00:05:26):

in St. Petersburg doing research i also did uh you know research in the national

Pietro (00:05:31):

library of Armenia here in Yerevan i worked with

Pietro (00:05:34):

newspapers,

Pietro (00:05:35):

not only the main Soviet Armenian newspapers,

Pietro (00:05:37):

and Kommunist,

Pietro (00:05:40):

and Kommunist being the Russian language newspaper in Yerevan,

Pietro (00:05:43):

but also I worked with,

Pietro (00:05:45):

you know, local party newspapers.

Pietro (00:05:47):

So if Mikoyan would visit Kajaran or he would visit Meghri,

Pietro (00:05:50):

I would go and look at the local party newspaper where they were reporting.

Pietro (00:05:54):

And this is like a super obscure,

Pietro (00:05:56):

you know, resource that's like pretty much only available in Yerevan.

Pietro (00:05:59):

So I would look at these local newspapers and I would find information in those as well.

Pietro (00:06:06):

Plus, I also did in-person interviews.

Pietro (00:06:08):

I did actually I went to Cranston,

Pietro (00:06:10):

Rhode Island,

Pietro (00:06:11):

for example,

Pietro (00:06:12):

and I interviewed Sergei Khrushchev,

Pietro (00:06:14):

who is the son or who was this excuse me,

Pietro (00:06:16):

who was the son of Nikita Khrushchev.

Pietro (00:06:19):

And unfortunately, he passed away.

Pietro (00:06:21):

But when he was still alive,

Pietro (00:06:23):

just before I did my archival research in 2019,

Pietro (00:06:27):

2020 in Yerevan in Moscow,

Pietro (00:06:29):

my first phase of archival research,

Pietro (00:06:32):

I went to Rhode Island and I interviewed Dr.

Pietro (00:06:36):

Khrushchev there,

Pietro (00:06:37):

as a matter of fact.

Pietro (00:06:38):

And I got a lot of interesting insights from that interview.

Pietro (00:06:41):

But of course, that wasn't the only one.

Pietro (00:06:42):

But that kind of sums up this is a very diverse source base I was using for this book.

Hovik (00:06:49):

That's good to know.

Hovik (00:06:50):

So with all these diverse sources,

Hovik (00:06:52):

how much new stuff were you able to uncover as part of your research and included

Hovik (00:06:56):

in your book?

Pietro (00:06:58):

Well, Hovik,

Pietro (00:07:00):

I have to say this, that the research,

Pietro (00:07:02):

what I uncovered was astounding even to me going into it.

Pietro (00:07:05):

So going into the project,

Pietro (00:07:07):

I was very interested in Mikoyan's role in de-Stalinization and how it related to

Pietro (00:07:11):

Armenia because I knew from the pre-existing literature,

Pietro (00:07:14):

and we'll get into that later in the interview,

Pietro (00:07:17):

That Mikoyan had given the speech in Yerevan in 1954 and called for the

Pietro (00:07:21):

rehabilitation of Charents,

Pietro (00:07:23):

right? So a lot of different sources mention this.

Pietro (00:07:25):

There's Mary Kilbourne Matossian wrote a book, The Impact of Soviet Policies in Armenia.

Pietro (00:07:30):

That was the first time the speech really was analyzed by an academic.

Pietro (00:07:35):

And then later on you have,

Pietro (00:07:36):

you know, even in terms of the Armenian historiography in Armenia,

Pietro (00:07:41):

Amatouni Virabyan wrote about the speech in his book about,

Pietro (00:07:44):

you know,

Pietro (00:07:45):

from Stalin to Khrushchev on post-war Soviet Armenia.

Pietro (00:07:49):

So I knew about the speech.

Pietro (00:07:50):

But then in the meantime,

Pietro (00:07:51):

there were also these other books from scholars of the Soviet Union,

Pietro (00:07:55):

you know,

Pietro (00:07:56):

on the larger level,

Pietro (00:07:57):

on kind of the all-union level.

Pietro (00:08:00):

academics such as Stephen F.

Pietro (00:08:02):

Cohen, Sheila Fitzpatrick,

Pietro (00:08:03):

Moshe Levine,

Pietro (00:08:04):

who actually talked about Mikoyan's role in de-Stalinization on the Moscow level,

Pietro (00:08:09):

right?

Pietro (00:08:10):

So I was interested in seeing how do these two, you know, kind of connect?

Pietro (00:08:13):

Like, what was his, did he have anything more that he was doing in Armenia beyond this?

Pietro (00:08:18):

What I was stunned to find is how deeply involved,

Pietro (00:08:21):

actually,

Pietro (00:08:22):

as I dug into this,

Pietro (00:08:23):

just looking through the speech,

Pietro (00:08:25):

as my as my thread to pull,

Pietro (00:08:27):

but actually how much I found he was actually so deeply involved in advising

Pietro (00:08:31):

Armenian leaders on the various,

Pietro (00:08:33):

you know, major projects throughout the whole Armenian Republic.

Pietro (00:08:37):

So it really put to rest even this notion that a lot of people would would say like

Pietro (00:08:42):

Armenia that,

Pietro (00:08:43):

well, what did Mikoyan do for Armenia?

Pietro (00:08:45):

Of course, you know, the idea is that he would do nothing.

Pietro (00:08:48):

He did nothing for Armenia.

Pietro (00:08:49):

But what I found really completely radically rewrote the whole history.

Pietro (00:08:55):

I found actually, as a matter of fact, he had done enormous work for Armenia.

Pietro (00:08:59):

And and I was I was really stunned actually about that.

Pietro (00:09:02):

Plus also the constitutional reforms are very surprising for me because there's a

Pietro (00:09:08):

big debate within the Soviet history field.

Pietro (00:09:10):

How much of of a break was Khrushchev from from Stalin and how much of this was

Pietro (00:09:16):

like,

Pietro (00:09:17):

let's say, true liberalization that was truly like democratic or whatever.

Pietro (00:09:21):

What I actually found was that Khrushchev and Mikoyan really,

Pietro (00:09:26):

really were serious about what they actually said in their own words in these

Pietro (00:09:31):

archival documents,

Pietro (00:09:33):

democratizing the system,

Pietro (00:09:35):

democratizing the whole Soviet system.

Pietro (00:09:37):

First, like when you read something like that,

Pietro (00:09:39):

like from a historian like Roy Medvedev,

Pietro (00:09:41):

you think, oh, maybe he's exaggerating.

Pietro (00:09:43):

There's something, you know, it can't be something that

Pietro (00:09:48):

Look at the sources.

Pietro (00:09:50):

It's astounding that actually they were that, I guess you could say extreme in terms of reform.

Pietro (00:09:56):

So this was a fundamental break.

Pietro (00:09:58):

I mean, from the Stalin era.

Pietro (00:09:59):

This was a fundamental break, this period of history from about 1954 to one might say 1964.

Pietro (00:10:06):

Some people might also say 1966, 1968, and so on.

Asbed (00:10:12):

Pietro, tell us a little bit about the beautiful cover that you've used in the book.

Asbed (00:10:17):

This picture we actually use for people who have actually listened to our podcast

Asbed (00:10:20):

for five years.

Asbed (00:10:22):

Since episode 28,

Asbed (00:10:23):

we had used this picture,

Asbed (00:10:26):

which we then said,

Asbed (00:10:27):

let's take it off so that when the book comes out,

Asbed (00:10:29):

it'll be one of a kind and people will not have seen it.

Asbed (00:10:32):

That picture is not really available in the old website.

Asbed (00:10:35):

The old website is gone.

Asbed (00:10:36):

But tell us a little bit about it.

Asbed (00:10:38):

It's beautiful.

Pietro (00:10:39):

Oh, so Mikoyan, actually, in 1962, he went to Sanahin, which is his native village, right?

Pietro (00:10:44):

And he was always advising Armenian leaders on developments in Sanahin.

Pietro (00:10:48):

There's a whole document from the Russian State Archive in GARF where it's a whole

Pietro (00:10:52):

list of all his advice to Soviet Armenian leaders,

Pietro (00:10:57):

including in Sanahin,

Pietro (00:10:58):

right? You know,

Pietro (00:10:59):

to make, I don't know,

Pietro (00:11:00):

baths for the workers,

Pietro (00:11:02):

you know, to pump water up to the Sanahin plateau.

Pietro (00:11:05):

And it goes on, you know, and on and on and on like that.

Pietro (00:11:08):

But he was really interested in the life of his native village.

Pietro (00:11:13):

And in 1962, he went there with the Soviet Army leadership.

Pietro (00:11:16):

It was almost like a family reunion, right?

Pietro (00:11:19):

So this little,

Pietro (00:11:21):

as these Armenian officials would recount later on,

Pietro (00:11:24):

years later, this little insignificant mountain village suddenly became...

Pietro (00:11:28):

this big kind of,

Pietro (00:11:31):

you know, site of like a celebration of a major kind of Soviet figure,

Pietro (00:11:35):

a major kind of all Union,

Pietro (00:11:37):

a figure of all Union significance was coming to this seemingly insignificant

Pietro (00:11:40):

village,

Pietro (00:11:41):

you know.

Pietro (00:11:42):

And so it was a big deal.

Pietro (00:11:44):

And that photograph of Mikoyan comes from that visit.

Pietro (00:11:49):

And I also didn't want just the photograph, because the designer from Indiana University Press

Pietro (00:11:56):

the design team,

Pietro (00:11:58):

they asked me, you know,

Pietro (00:11:59):

what would you like,

Pietro (00:12:00):

how would you like this cover to be?

Pietro (00:12:02):

And they said,

Pietro (00:12:03):

well, do something like,

Pietro (00:12:04):

you know, Kazimir Malevich,

Pietro (00:12:05):

you know,

Pietro (00:12:06):

do it like with like something avant-garde,

Pietro (00:12:08):

you know, like, you know, with that.

Pietro (00:12:09):

And so they put like this like red band, you know, there, which really, really looks amazing.

Pietro (00:12:14):

There's a work by Malevich.

Pietro (00:12:16):

I mean, there's like works that he's done that like kind of juxtapose like a red with like

Pietro (00:12:20):

a black cross.

Pietro (00:12:22):

And I really like how they kind of alluded to that in this design of the cover,

Pietro (00:12:26):

because it almost is like an allusion to Mikoyan's upbringing in the Armenian

Pietro (00:12:31):

Apostolic Church.

Pietro (00:12:33):

which we'll discuss later on in this podcast,

Pietro (00:12:36):

and really actually his tolerance for religion,

Pietro (00:12:39):

which is actually quite interesting.

Pietro (00:12:41):

In the atheistic Soviet Union,

Pietro (00:12:43):

they had a figure who was tolerant,

Pietro (00:12:45):

not only of necessarily the Armenian church,

Pietro (00:12:47):

but even in the Chechen context,

Pietro (00:12:49):

the Sunni Muslim Chechen traditions.

Pietro (00:12:52):

So yeah, that's the story behind that.

Pietro (00:12:55):

Thank you. In a nutshell, you're welcome.

Pietro (00:12:57):

Oh, by the way, also the source of that photo is from the Russian State Archive, Garth.

Pietro (00:13:02):

Just to throw that out there as well.

Hovik (00:13:05):

So in episode 38, in 2020, we talked about the topic, of course.

Hovik (00:13:11):

We talked about Mikoyan's rise to power,

Hovik (00:13:15):

everything from Mikoyan's rise to power and early Hurrier through his governorship

Hovik (00:13:22):

of the North Caucasus,

Hovik (00:13:25):

from the role that he had in the Yerevan repressions in 1937 and all the way to the

Hovik (00:13:32):

desalinization work.

Hovik (00:13:33):

So I guess just as a background,

Hovik (00:13:37):

what do you want to revisit today so we can give enough of a framework around which

Hovik (00:13:42):

then to go into more details for new questions?

Pietro (00:13:45):

Well,

Pietro (00:13:47):

first and foremost,

Pietro (00:13:48):

I just want to say that what we were talking about in December 2020,

Pietro (00:13:52):

and I believe actually in December 2020,

Pietro (00:13:54):

that was the first time I was ever on a Groom podcast.

Pietro (00:13:57):

So this is a long

Pietro (00:14:00):

This is where it all began, boys.

Pietro (00:14:02):

I mean, when I was, for the first time, I grew.

Pietro (00:14:05):

But at that time, you have to think, it was December 2020.

Pietro (00:14:11):

I didn't even have my dissertation finished.

Pietro (00:14:13):

I was still working on my dissertation, which would become eventually my book.

Pietro (00:14:19):

So a lot was actually updated from then.

Pietro (00:14:21):

And in particular,

Pietro (00:14:23):

I have to say,

Pietro (00:14:25):

so after I finished my dissertation,

Pietro (00:14:27):

I took up a job in Yerevan at the American University of Armenia as a lecturer in

Pietro (00:14:32):

history,

Pietro (00:14:33):

which is now the position I'm in,

Pietro (00:14:35):

again, kind of going full circle.

Pietro (00:14:37):

And at that moment,

Pietro (00:14:40):

when I was teaching in Yerevan Armenian history,

Pietro (00:14:43):

I also realized to myself,

Pietro (00:14:44):

well,

Pietro (00:14:45):

here I am in Yerevan.

Pietro (00:14:46):

And when I was under the COVID conditions,

Pietro (00:14:48):

there was so much that I had to rely on secondary literature for,

Pietro (00:14:52):

about the repressions,

Pietro (00:14:53):

about rehabilitations or whatnot.

Pietro (00:14:55):

But now I'm in Yerevan.

Pietro (00:14:56):

I can go to the archives, and I have the whole year, and I can go and check everything.

Pietro (00:15:01):

I can go and check all these details.

Pietro (00:15:02):

So for instance, like small detail.

Pietro (00:15:04):

I mean, it might seem small, but it was quite important.

Pietro (00:15:08):

Which window did Sahag Tir Gabrielyan fall from in terms of the NKVD building in 1937?

Pietro (00:15:14):

Some sources were saying it was the fourth floor window,

Pietro (00:15:17):

other sources said it was the second floor window,

Pietro (00:15:19):

and I actually found out it was the third floor window by working in the Armenian

Pietro (00:15:22):

archives and going through all the materials.

Pietro (00:15:24):

But I actually,

Pietro (00:15:25):

for the first time,

Pietro (00:15:26):

I was really updating our knowledge because you have to think,

Pietro (00:15:29):

that the last serious,

Pietro (00:15:32):

you know,

Pietro (00:15:33):

real, real deep study of Soviet Armenian,

Pietro (00:15:36):

Soviet Armenian history in the English language was in 1962 by this woman,

Pietro (00:15:42):

this historian,

Pietro (00:15:44):

Mary Kilbourne Matossian,

Pietro (00:15:45):

right?

Pietro (00:15:46):

And historians after her derived their work, you know, from her.

Pietro (00:15:50):

So like my mentor at,

Pietro (00:15:52):

or my advisor at the University of Michigan Ann Arbor,

Pietro (00:15:55):

Ronald Grigor Suni,

Pietro (00:15:56):

if you've ever read his book,

Pietro (00:15:57):

Looking Toward Ararat,

Pietro (00:15:59):

his materials in Soviet Armenia, he's often citing this Mary Matossian's book.

Pietro (00:16:05):

So our knowledge needed to really be updated from 1962 because you have to even

Pietro (00:16:09):

think,

Pietro (00:16:10):

the book was written at the time Mikoyan was still in the Kremlin.

Pietro (00:16:14):

And I thought to myself, we really need to update our knowledge.

Pietro (00:16:16):

So the book really builds on that in terms of the repressions, in terms of de-Stalinization.

Pietro (00:16:24):

So it got to such a point

Pietro (00:16:26):

that the work I was doing on the repressions became a whole new chapter.

Pietro (00:16:31):

So that whole Yerevan 1937 chapter,

Pietro (00:16:34):

which is at the beginning of the book,

Pietro (00:16:36):

that isn't in the dissertation.

Pietro (00:16:37):

That's something that's completely unique to the book.

Pietro (00:16:41):

But in addition to that,

Pietro (00:16:42):

there was a lot more I discovered in terms of the Artsakh issue,

Pietro (00:16:46):

actually, as a matter of fact.

Pietro (00:16:47):

So there was this petition in 1966 that basically all these major,

Pietro (00:16:53):

it was over a thousand,

Pietro (00:16:55):

you know,

Pietro (00:16:56):

major, major Soviet,

Pietro (00:16:57):

close to even,

Pietro (00:16:58):

we can even say 2,000.

Pietro (00:17:00):

major, major Soviet army and cultural figures,

Pietro (00:17:02):

writing in support of the Artsakhtsi rights in Nagorno-Karabakh,

Pietro (00:17:07):

in the Nagorno-Karabakh Autonomous Oblast.

Pietro (00:17:09):

And the first person to sign it, you know who it was?

Pietro (00:17:13):

It was Martiros Saryan, because you have to think these are cultural figures of the Republic.

Pietro (00:17:17):

So Martiros Saryan signed this petition,

Pietro (00:17:19):

Yervant Kochar signed the petition,

Pietro (00:17:21):

Sevak signed the petition,

Pietro (00:17:24):

you know, Hamo Sahyan,

Pietro (00:17:26):

it goes on and on and on.

Pietro (00:17:27):

And so this was something kind of,

Pietro (00:17:30):

it was an important element in the research,

Pietro (00:17:32):

especially when I was going on focusing on this background of the Artsakh issue in

Pietro (00:17:36):

my book.

Pietro (00:17:38):

And also later on in St.

Pietro (00:17:40):

Petersburg,

Pietro (00:17:42):

I found a lot of fascinating information on the constitutional reforms as I was

Pietro (00:17:46):

working with the secondary literature in Russian.

Pietro (00:17:49):

Plus also when I went to St.

Pietro (00:17:50):

Petersburg on my postdoctoral fellowship,

Pietro (00:17:53):

I got support for a 10-day trip to Moscow,

Pietro (00:17:56):

where I basically finished up everything that I wasn't able to complete in 2020.

Pietro (00:18:01):

So all the loose ends, which even there, even when I was in Yerevan, I kept on adding to that.

Pietro (00:18:07):

thinking, what are some other parts of the archives I could see?

Pietro (00:18:10):

And so I went back to RGASPI,

Pietro (00:18:13):

I went back to Garth,

Pietro (00:18:14):

I went back to these archives for all this time,

Pietro (00:18:16):

and the ladies in the archives were like saying,

Pietro (00:18:17):

oh, we missed you so much,

Pietro (00:18:19):

and you know, it's so good to see you back here.

Pietro (00:18:21):

And this is like, we're talking now, this is like the end of 2022.

Pietro (00:18:26):

And so I went back there.

Pietro (00:18:27):

I got additional information I found immensely fascinating.

Pietro (00:18:31):

I found amazingly fascinating information on the Lake Sevan issue.

Pietro (00:18:36):

Right. So I talk about Mikoyan's role in that.

Pietro (00:18:38):

But also in general,

Pietro (00:18:39):

there's like a whole deal,

Pietro (00:18:40):

a whole file on Lake Sevan in the Russian state archive.

Pietro (00:18:44):

So I really.

Pietro (00:18:45):

What is the main issue there?

Pietro (00:18:46):

Yeah.

Pietro (00:18:47):

Well,

Pietro (00:18:48):

the main issue there was the waters of Lake Sevan were being used for hydroelectric

Pietro (00:18:52):

purposes and irrigation purposes in Soviet Armenia as part of this Hrazdan-Sevan

Pietro (00:18:59):

cascade.

Pietro (00:19:00):

And what happened was the waters of the lake were going down.

Pietro (00:19:02):

Now,

Pietro (00:19:03):

when we talk about the three major lakes in the Armenian highland,

Pietro (00:19:06):

we're talking about the Armenian plateau.

Pietro (00:19:07):

I use the term Armenian plateau in my book to describe the historical,

Pietro (00:19:12):

the larger territory of Armenia.

Pietro (00:19:15):

And really,

Pietro (00:19:17):

when we look,

Pietro (00:19:18):

think about the three major lakes of Armenia,

Pietro (00:19:20):

we're thinking about Sevan,

Pietro (00:19:21):

Van, and Urmia.

Pietro (00:19:23):

And Urmia actually now,

Pietro (00:19:24):

thanks to,

Pietro (00:19:26):

you know, kind of hydroelectric projects and,

Pietro (00:19:28):

you know,

Pietro (00:19:29):

other things going on in Iran,

Pietro (00:19:31):

now that has almost disappeared,

Pietro (00:19:33):

right? That lake, unfortunately, sadly.

Pietro (00:19:36):

But in the case of Lake Sevan,

Pietro (00:19:37):

it could have had that fate in the Soviet times,

Pietro (00:19:39):

just like the RLC in Central Asia.

Pietro (00:19:41):

But what happened was the Soviet Armenian leadership realized very early on,

Pietro (00:19:46):

during this period of Khrushchev,

Pietro (00:19:48):

that this is very,

Pietro (00:19:50):

very,

Pietro (00:19:51):

you know, dangerous.

Pietro (00:19:52):

We don't want to lose the lake.

Pietro (00:19:53):

We want to preserve it.

Pietro (00:19:54):

It's the Armenian Sea, right?

Pietro (00:19:56):

That's why I call this section of chapter three, I call this section Saving the Armenian Sea.

Pietro (00:20:02):

And what actually happens there is that

Pietro (00:20:06):

they go and consult Mikoyan.

Pietro (00:20:08):

Well, first of all, they have their own internal consultations within Armenia.

Pietro (00:20:12):

There's a lot of material here in Yerevan about that,

Pietro (00:20:14):

that they try to figure out what's the best way to resolve this,

Pietro (00:20:17):

and eventually they come to the consensus that the best way to resolve it is to

Pietro (00:20:23):

redirect the water from the Arpa River

Pietro (00:20:26):

to Lake Sevan to replenish the lake.

Pietro (00:20:30):

And in order to do this project,

Pietro (00:20:31):

because this would cost a lot of money,

Pietro (00:20:34):

it's not something the Soviet Armenian government itself could fund.

Pietro (00:20:38):

It's not just something the Republic of Armenia could fund under the Soviet Union.

Pietro (00:20:41):

They needed money from Moscow.

Pietro (00:20:43):

So what happened was they went and they consulted Mikoyan about this.

Pietro (00:20:47):

Now this is actually an interesting thing because some of this information about

Pietro (00:20:51):

their consultations with Mikoyan comes from this

Pietro (00:20:55):

Soviet-Armenian official,

Pietro (00:20:57):

and this is from an unpublished manuscript of the memoirs of Sergo Mikoyan,

Pietro (00:21:02):

who was the son of Anastas.

Pietro (00:21:05):

And this was only published in Armenian translation in Yerevan,

Pietro (00:21:09):

but the original Russian text,

Pietro (00:21:12):

I was able to get that unpublished.

Pietro (00:21:14):

I was able to get the original to see what it was actually saying originally in Russian.

Pietro (00:21:18):

And so anyway,

Pietro (00:21:19):

but the bottom line is they went to Moscow,

Pietro (00:21:20):

the Soviet Armenian leadership in full force,

Pietro (00:21:22):

and they consulted Mikoyan,

Pietro (00:21:23):

they asked him about this project,

Pietro (00:21:25):

and he said, well, you know what,

Pietro (00:21:26):

for Lake Sevan,

Pietro (00:21:27):

what you ought to do is don't tell Khrushchev when you meet with him,

Pietro (00:21:31):

because they were going to bring up this issue when Khrushchev visited Soviet

Pietro (00:21:34):

Armenia.

Pietro (00:21:36):

In 1961,

Pietro (00:21:37):

Khrushchev came to Soviet Armenia in honor of the anniversary of the Sovietization

Pietro (00:21:42):

of the Armenian Republic.

Pietro (00:21:44):

It was a big thing.

Pietro (00:21:45):

And so what ended up happening is the Armenian leadership decided at that point

Pietro (00:21:50):

that this is the leadership of Yakov Zarobian.

Pietro (00:21:52):

He was the first secretary at the time.

Pietro (00:21:54):

They decided to talk to Khrushchev about this issue of Lake Sevan.

Pietro (00:21:59):

So the idea was to take him on a boat ride on the lake and convince him to kind of, you know,

Pietro (00:22:06):

support this project.

Pietro (00:22:07):

But Mikoyan said,

Pietro (00:22:08):

well, if you give him the full price of the whole project,

Pietro (00:22:11):

including the infrastructure and everything,

Pietro (00:22:13):

he's going to go through the roof.

Pietro (00:22:14):

He's never going to support it.

Pietro (00:22:15):

So just give him the cost of the tunnel and the associated infrastructure.

Pietro (00:22:19):

Just don't tell him about that.

Pietro (00:22:20):

Meanwhile,

Pietro (00:22:21):

also say that,

Pietro (00:22:22):

you know,

Pietro (00:22:23):

the Republic of Armenia,

Pietro (00:22:24):

that the budget of the Soviet Armenia will cover maybe about 30 percent of

Pietro (00:22:29):

of this, of this project.

Pietro (00:22:31):

So that way, you know, it's not like you're, you're putting everything on him, right?

Pietro (00:22:35):

So we know also from the Russian archives,

Pietro (00:22:36):

Khrushchev,

Pietro (00:22:37):

even on the eve of his visit,

Pietro (00:22:39):

was asking his advisors to kind of check cost estimates for this,

Pietro (00:22:43):

for this Arpa-Sevan,

Pietro (00:22:44):

you know, canal,

Pietro (00:22:45):

because also, you know,

Pietro (00:22:46):

Khrushchev, he was friends with Mikoyan,

Pietro (00:22:48):

not only political,

Pietro (00:22:49):

not only was he a political

Pietro (00:22:51):

Not only was Mikoyan a political ally, but he was a friend of Khrushchev.

Pietro (00:22:55):

So they were talking informally about many things all the time.

Pietro (00:22:57):

So probably, I mean, Khrushchev understood that this issue is coming my way.

Pietro (00:23:01):

And I have to make sure, I have to see what the cost estimates are about this.

Pietro (00:23:06):

So what happened is, anyway, he came to Yerevan.

Pietro (00:23:08):

They put him on this boat on Lake Sevan, the boat Mikoyan.

Pietro (00:23:13):

It was actually, that's what it's called.

Pietro (00:23:14):

So if you look at the footage from the boat ride from 1961,

Pietro (00:23:18):

this is Victory Day,

Pietro (00:23:19):

1961,

Pietro (00:23:20):

May 9th, 1961. And also, you know who else was on the boat?

Pietro (00:23:23):

Marshal Bagramyan,

Pietro (00:23:24):

the great Armenian hero of the Second World War,

Pietro (00:23:26):

was in attendance at this meeting,

Pietro (00:23:28):

too. So they would have Ishkhan trout on the boat, right?

Pietro (00:23:31):

Zerobian,

Pietro (00:23:32):

later,

Pietro (00:23:33):

there was this recollection that Zarobian was thinking,

Pietro (00:23:35):

you know, we could maybe offer...

Pietro (00:23:37):

Khrushchev Armenian cognac, too, but Khrushchev denied he didn't want to have cognac.

Pietro (00:23:42):

Right. Probably it was a smart move.

Pietro (00:23:43):

He drank Armenian wine on this trip, but not the cognac.

Pietro (00:23:46):

He didn't want to because probably he thought he was going to be bamboozled by the

Pietro (00:23:49):

Armenians or tricked by the Armenians,

Pietro (00:23:51):

you know,

Pietro (00:23:52):

into something. And he wanted to be very sober when he's making these decisions.

Pietro (00:23:55):

So they took him on the lake and Khrushchev was thrilled.

Pietro (00:23:57):

He was like a little boy.

Pietro (00:23:59):

When he was like,

Pietro (00:24:00):

he took like a Kopek and he dropped it into the water of the lake and he watched

Pietro (00:24:04):

it go all the way down and he couldn't believe how clear it was.

Pietro (00:24:07):

He was like a little kid, right?

Pietro (00:24:09):

Well, that's pretty amazing.

Pietro (00:24:11):

And that's what he was like.

Pietro (00:24:12):

Yeah, it is amazing.

Pietro (00:24:13):

That's what he was like, too.

Pietro (00:24:14):

I mean, Khrushchev, this was his personality, right?

Pietro (00:24:17):

Also, he could get very upset.

Pietro (00:24:18):

So like Kochinyan had the story where Khrushchev almost refused to go on the boat

Pietro (00:24:22):

because he said,

Pietro (00:24:23):

you guys have no restaurants.

Pietro (00:24:25):

on the shores of this beautiful lake.

Pietro (00:24:27):

You have no resorts in the shores of this beautiful lake.

Pietro (00:24:29):

What gives?

Pietro (00:24:30):

Why is this?

Pietro (00:24:31):

And later on, Mikoyan would advise Kochinyan and Zarobian and the other Armenian leaders on

Pietro (00:24:36):

developments around Lake Sivan in terms of bringing people to the beach and having

Pietro (00:24:42):

restaurants and all this and that.

Pietro (00:24:44):

But at the time, Khrushchev was really upset that you have nothing here.

Pietro (00:24:47):

Why not? Because it's such a beautiful lake.

Pietro (00:24:49):

Why not?

Pietro (00:24:50):

So then anyway,

Pietro (00:24:51):

on this boat ride,

Pietro (00:24:52):

Zarobian and Kochinyan and the others,

Pietro (00:24:56):

they persuade Khrushchev,

Pietro (00:24:57):

you know,

Pietro (00:24:58):

following Mikoyan's advice to support this project for the Arpa-Sevan canal.

Pietro (00:25:03):

And basically,

Pietro (00:25:04):

it was already,

Pietro (00:25:05):

I mean,

Pietro (00:25:06):

they already were beginning to implement it in the 60s,

Pietro (00:25:09):

but it was not really completed,

Pietro (00:25:11):

actually,

Pietro (00:25:12):

the tunnel,

Pietro (00:25:13):

until the early 80s.

Pietro (00:25:15):

But you needed to go through a whole process to realize something like this.

Pietro (00:25:19):

But the point is that to this day,

Pietro (00:25:21):

That tunnel is still in operation in Armenia, and it's still replenishing the lake.

Pietro (00:25:27):

Now, there were some extensions added to it, but you get the idea.

Asbed (00:25:31):

Yeah. Actually,

Asbed (00:25:32):

we did have questions a little bit later about the kind of infrastructure that is a

Asbed (00:25:36):

legacy of his times and history.

Asbed (00:25:39):

his efforts on behalf of Armenia.

Asbed (00:25:41):

But I wanna change gears in the short time that I've had the book,

Asbed (00:25:44):

Pietro,

Asbed (00:25:45):

I had the opportunity to browse and was fascinated with your assertions about

Asbed (00:25:50):

Mikoyan leading the charge,

Asbed (00:25:51):

actually high level Soviet subcommittees to change the Soviet Union into a

Asbed (00:25:56):

confederation instead of a highly centralized,

Asbed (00:25:59):

what you say many Western scholars believe to be a sham federation,

Asbed (00:26:04):

meaning to say it's just a centralized dictatorship.

Asbed (00:26:08):

I cut off a lot of things that I was going to read off,

Asbed (00:26:10):

but I think I'm not sure we have time for those.

Asbed (00:26:13):

But let's just say that on paper,

Asbed (00:26:17):

Mikoyan got the USSR within touching distance of a confederal design.

Asbed (00:26:23):

Strong secession language, explicit Republican sovereignty outside all union competencies.

Asbed (00:26:30):

But in practice, no adoption happened.

Asbed (00:26:34):

The party state structure held, the closed...

Asbed (00:26:37):

The closest the USSR ever came was serious high-level drafting and debate,

Asbed (00:26:43):

but no implementation.

Asbed (00:26:45):

So discuss for us a little bit what you think was Mikoyan's vision of a Soviet confederation.

Asbed (00:26:51):

Where would their autonomies begin?

Asbed (00:26:53):

Where would their sovereignties end?

Asbed (00:26:55):

It's a fascinating topic.

Pietro (00:26:57):

Well, what he wanted was he was meeting with Soviet lawyers.

Pietro (00:27:01):

So first of all, we have to also contextualize this and what this was part of.

Pietro (00:27:06):

So this was part of this major,

Pietro (00:27:08):

major reform of Khrushchev to change,

Pietro (00:27:12):

radically change the whole Soviet constitution and to make the Soviet constitution,

Pietro (00:27:17):

you know, a democratic constitution to actually give the Soviet citizens the right to

Pietro (00:27:22):

influence the affairs of the state.

Pietro (00:27:24):

Right. So even Khrushchev himself had the famous quote during the Central Committee

Pietro (00:27:28):

meetings,

Pietro (00:27:29):

because also what else we have,

Pietro (00:27:30):

what else we have, too, which is really interesting is the Russians.

Pietro (00:27:34):

published entire collections, compilations, of archival documents in the Russian language.

Pietro (00:27:40):

And some of these aren't even looked at by Western scholars.

Pietro (00:27:43):

They're underused, actually.

Pietro (00:27:45):

But there are some of these central committee meetings that Khrushchev is talking

Pietro (00:27:49):

about this idea that,

Pietro (00:27:50):

you know what,

Pietro (00:27:51):

President Kennedy is always criticizing us because we're not democratic.

Pietro (00:27:54):

But you know what, let's show him.

Pietro (00:27:55):

Let's show that we can do this in our own way.

Pietro (00:27:58):

And moreover, we should go to the principle of Lenin

Pietro (00:28:02):

that every cook should control her own state.

Pietro (00:28:05):

Plus also Khrushchev,

Pietro (00:28:07):

as it's well known,

Pietro (00:28:08):

he was not a fan of the bureaucracy in the Soviet Union,

Pietro (00:28:10):

and he wanted to constantly update the bureaucracy and shuffle it around and all

Pietro (00:28:15):

this and that. So that was kind of the idea.

Pietro (00:28:17):

Plus also there's another context here, which is the fact that

Pietro (00:28:21):

the Thaw period,

Pietro (00:28:22):

this Khrushchev period,

Pietro (00:28:24):

what is known in the Armenian language as Zintal,

Pietro (00:28:27):

that in Russian is Ottepel,

Pietro (00:28:30):

that this period of time was really a shift,

Pietro (00:28:35):

marked a shift from the Stalinist view of things,

Pietro (00:28:38):

which was like rapid industrialization,

Pietro (00:28:40):

no regard for,

Pietro (00:28:41):

let's say,

Pietro (00:28:42):

the concerns of the people or whatever,

Pietro (00:28:45):

versus Khrushchev,

Pietro (00:28:46):

where the people became the center of everything.

Pietro (00:28:49):

right, where there was new funding on,

Pietro (00:28:52):

you know, the consumer economy,

Pietro (00:28:54):

on,

Pietro (00:28:55):

we can say,

Pietro (00:28:56):

you know, housing,

Pietro (00:28:57):

big, big investments in housing,

Pietro (00:28:59):

and so on and so forth.

Pietro (00:29:00):

So the people were now front and center.

Pietro (00:29:01):

So to democratize the Soviet state was the culmination of this idea that now we

Pietro (00:29:07):

are,

Pietro (00:29:08):

you know, the people's state,

Pietro (00:29:09):

right? They even use this idea that the Soviet Union is no longer the dictatorship of the proletariat,

Pietro (00:29:14):

We're now evolving into the all-people state.

Pietro (00:29:16):

And as part of that, we need to have free and democratic elections in the state.

Pietro (00:29:21):

Now, of course, the Communist Party still has a monopoly of power.

Pietro (00:29:24):

But the idea was to allow the average Soviet citizen to influence the process kind

Pietro (00:29:29):

of indirectly. Now, for Mikoyan's role,

Pietro (00:29:30):

Mikoyan was assigned to be the head of the subcommittee on nationality policy.

Pietro (00:29:35):

or national state construction and nationality policy.

Pietro (00:29:37):

And Mikoyan already had earned himself a reputation as being kind of an expert on

Pietro (00:29:41):

nationality affairs.

Pietro (00:29:42):

It was he who had rejected this idea of the sliyaniye of nations,

Pietro (00:29:46):

the merger of nations,

Pietro (00:29:48):

and instead advocated for this idea of sblizheniye,

Pietro (00:29:50):

or rapprochement of nations,

Pietro (00:29:51):

basically a live and let live approach that would allow everybody in the Soviet

Pietro (00:29:57):

Union to respect each other's national differences.

Pietro (00:30:00):

So on that basis, Khrushchev says,

Pietro (00:30:01):

look,

Pietro (00:30:02):

you know, Anastas Ivanovich,

Pietro (00:30:03):

I want to make you the head of this subcommittee on nationality policy of national

Pietro (00:30:06):

state construction.

Pietro (00:30:07):

So Mikoyan takes the reins of that.

Pietro (00:30:10):

And as part of that, he meets with these lawyers, these Soviet lawyers.

Pietro (00:30:14):

And he expresses this idea that,

Pietro (00:30:16):

you know, the Soviet Union from the outset was supposed to be that the lawyers were trying to

Pietro (00:30:20):

define the Soviet Union as a federation.

Pietro (00:30:23):

And Mikoyan said, well, no, it's something more than that.

Pietro (00:30:26):

The original idea of Lenin, the original idea of the Union State, was to be something more.

Pietro (00:30:30):

When we talk about this idea of Soyuz Union,

Pietro (00:30:32):

it's supposed to be a free union of republics,

Pietro (00:30:35):

like I said, like a confederation,

Pietro (00:30:36):

just like what you said,

Pietro (00:30:37):

Uzbek.

Pietro (00:30:38):

That was his idea, to really kind of make, really effectively, a socialist confederation.

Pietro (00:30:44):

And also,

Pietro (00:30:45):

it wasn't just that,

Pietro (00:30:46):

so the idea would be a radical devolution of powers from Moscow to Armenia to

Pietro (00:30:50):

Georgia to Ukraine,

Pietro (00:30:52):

to all these different republics.

Pietro (00:30:54):

But not only, the other idea was also to enhance the political power of the autonomies.

Pietro (00:30:58):

So the idea they were giving,

Pietro (00:31:00):

even they were discussing maybe autonomous republics should have the right to,

Pietro (00:31:05):

you know,

Pietro (00:31:06):

maybe, first of all,

Pietro (00:31:07):

that the autonomous republics should not have to consult the Union Republic to

Pietro (00:31:13):

which they're subordinated.

Pietro (00:31:14):

to approve their constitution.

Pietro (00:31:16):

So Georgia wouldn't have to approve, let's say, Abkhazia's constitution, right?

Pietro (00:31:19):

Abkhazia being the autonomous republic within Georgia.

Pietro (00:31:22):

But also there was even debates that should we abolish autonomous oblasts as a

Pietro (00:31:27):

division and just make all autonomous oblasts autonomous republics,

Pietro (00:31:31):

which would automatically elevate Artsakh

Pietro (00:31:35):

to the status of an autonomous republic that could have the power to maybe even

Pietro (00:31:38):

change its status.

Pietro (00:31:39):

Because they even were talking about this idea that autonomous republics could even

Pietro (00:31:43):

change the republic,

Pietro (00:31:45):

to which they're subordinated.

Pietro (00:31:47):

They could even do that.

Pietro (00:31:48):

They were even talking about this idea as an idea.

Pietro (00:31:50):

There was a representative from Dagestan who said, maybe, oh, you know, maybe we should...

Pietro (00:31:53):

We should do this.

Asbed (00:31:54):

Well, actually,

Asbed (00:31:55):

I'm very interested in this topic because I wanted to know if Mikoyan was driven by

Asbed (00:32:01):

ideological reasons or did he have his own nationalistic agenda behind the cover of

Asbed (00:32:07):

these subcommittees?

Pietro (00:32:08):

Well, I think it was a bit of both.

Pietro (00:32:10):

I mean, I think that he is, of course, he's an Armenian.

Pietro (00:32:13):

He's very sensitive to his Armenian background.

Pietro (00:32:16):

There was a period there in about during the Civil War era,

Pietro (00:32:19):

where he became like a total internationalist and almost himself like a national nihilist.

Pietro (00:32:24):

So in 1962,

Pietro (00:32:25):

he meets these Soviet Armenian historians in Yerevan,

Pietro (00:32:29):

and he even is like,

Pietro (00:32:30):

you know, repentant.

Pietro (00:32:31):

He's even apologizing for his earlier national nihilism in his youth.

Pietro (00:32:34):

So Stepan Shahumyan,

Pietro (00:32:36):

who's famous for the Baku Commune,

Pietro (00:32:38):

proposed this idea that within the Soviet Union,

Pietro (00:32:40):

in the Caucasus,

Pietro (00:32:41):

we should have

Pietro (00:32:43):

like national republics with their own autonomy, right?

Pietro (00:32:46):

And there should be a Georgian Republic,

Pietro (00:32:48):

an Armenian Republic, and a Muslim Republic,

Pietro (00:32:50):

which would be, eventually,

Pietro (00:32:51):

we would call it Azerbaijan.

Pietro (00:32:53):

Uh, but, but the idea was that,

Pietro (00:32:56):

um, Stepan Shahumyan was voicing this,

Pietro (00:32:58):

uh, you know,

Pietro (00:32:59):

uh, you know,

Pietro (00:33:00):

uh, idea and Mikoyan and others were actually initially against it even.

Pietro (00:33:03):

So Mikoyan was that,

Pietro (00:33:05):

you know, kind of, I guess you could say internationalist or national nihilist at the time.

Pietro (00:33:09):

But by this time, especially he becomes more of like a national communist.

Pietro (00:33:12):

He becomes extreme, he's very sensitive to his Armenian background.

Pietro (00:33:15):

It goes back to his youth when he's in the Nersessian school reading Raffi and other writers.

Pietro (00:33:21):

And so he's always sensitive to being an Armenian.

Pietro (00:33:25):

And that also informs why he rejects this idea of sliyaniye and why he also is for

Pietro (00:33:31):

devolving more powers to the republics.

Pietro (00:33:33):

He's very,

Pietro (00:33:34):

very especially sensitive to the fact that he's actually,

Pietro (00:33:39):

by this time, he's very proud of,

Pietro (00:33:41):

I can even say,

Pietro (00:33:42):

Armenia's achievements within the Soviet Union.

Pietro (00:33:45):

And he constantly emphasizes that Armenian statehood was realized in the Soviet context.

Pietro (00:33:49):

So anyway,

Pietro (00:33:50):

but getting back to your original question,

Pietro (00:33:51):

it is partially informed by his national identity,

Pietro (00:33:54):

but also informed by his ideology,

Pietro (00:33:57):

because Mikoyan was a committed socialist,

Pietro (00:34:00):

a committed Marxist,

Pietro (00:34:02):

just like Khrushchev was.

Pietro (00:34:03):

And they both believed,

Pietro (00:34:04):

Mikoyan and Khrushchev,

Pietro (00:34:05):

that the communism could be the paradise on earth if it was,

Pietro (00:34:09):

you know,

Pietro (00:34:10):

if it was really truly meeting the ideals,

Pietro (00:34:13):

let's say, of Marx and of,

Pietro (00:34:15):

you know,

Pietro (00:34:16):

of democratic socialism.

Pietro (00:34:17):

They talked about this idea of socialist democracy, like it sounded like Bernie Sanders.

Pietro (00:34:21):

And that's exactly what they were trying to do.

Pietro (00:34:23):

They were trying to create a socialist democracy in the Soviet Union.

Pietro (00:34:26):

And the idea,

Pietro (00:34:27):

so this,

Pietro (00:34:28):

as he would see it,

Pietro (00:34:30):

expanding the rights for Armenians and others in the Soviet socialist context is

Pietro (00:34:36):

completely consistent with the realization of real socialist democracy and real,

Pietro (00:34:46):

I guess you could say,

Pietro (00:34:47):

communism or Marxism,

Pietro (00:34:48):

really, Marxist socialism in the Soviet Union.

Asbed (00:34:51):

So what would compel a state with that much sovereignty to stay within a union?

Asbed (00:34:57):

Why not be its own republic and have a seat in the United Nations?

Pietro (00:35:03):

Well, it's a very interesting question because even there was debates about should these

Pietro (00:35:08):

republics

Pietro (00:35:09):

Should they have their own?

Pietro (00:35:11):

Well, but this actually is interesting because it gets to some of these details that were

Pietro (00:35:15):

not really ironed out because this reform was never realized.

Asbed (00:35:18):

Yeah, and I want to get to the point of why it failed ultimately.

Pietro (00:35:22):

That's what I'm needing.

Pietro (00:35:23):

I'll tell you why it failed in a moment.

Pietro (00:35:25):

But even they were even toying with this idea about maybe some of these republics

Pietro (00:35:29):

should have representation in the UN.

Pietro (00:35:30):

I mean, even Stalin...

Pietro (00:35:34):

Back in the day under his constitution,

Pietro (00:35:36):

the 1936 constitution,

Pietro (00:35:37):

because you have to also understand Stalin in 1936 with his constitution,

Pietro (00:35:42):

as much as you even have scholars today in the West who say how democratic the

Pietro (00:35:45):

Stalin constitution was in 1936.

Pietro (00:35:48):

But in fact, actually, if you look at the fine print,

Pietro (00:35:51):

it actually centralized power more in Moscow's hands.

Pietro (00:35:55):

Now, there were some amendments that would do things like give the Ukrainian Soviet

Pietro (00:36:00):

Socialist Republic a seat in the UN that would allow them to have some

Pietro (00:36:03):

international representation,

Pietro (00:36:04):

this kind of thing.

Pietro (00:36:05):

But really, that was more or less, I guess we could say, maybe for show.

Pietro (00:36:10):

But in any case,

Pietro (00:36:12):

so there was this debate about how far should we go in terms of how much of a

Pietro (00:36:17):

confederation this should be.

Pietro (00:36:19):

But I don't want to get too far into that.

Pietro (00:36:21):

I'll let our readers kind of look into the book.

Pietro (00:36:24):

They should get your book.

Pietro (00:36:25):

Wade through that.

Pietro (00:36:26):

Yeah, absolutely.

Pietro (00:36:28):

So you want to know why Asbed? Why it failed?

Pietro (00:36:31):

Why in the end it wasn't realized?

Pietro (00:36:35):

Well, because what happened was Khrushchev was overthrown.

Pietro (00:36:38):

And Brezhnev and company came in.

Pietro (00:36:40):

And after that point, that was really the end of the show.

Pietro (00:36:42):

Now Brezhnev and company,

Pietro (00:36:43):

they realized a version of the,

Pietro (00:36:45):

so they actually,

Pietro (00:36:46):

Khrushchev, you have to understand Asbed.

Pietro (00:36:49):

They got as far as developing a draft constitution in 1964,

Pietro (00:36:53):

which we have,

Pietro (00:36:54):

and it's radically democratic.

Pietro (00:36:55):

It's like, you can't believe that this would have ever been implemented.

Pietro (00:36:59):

If it had been implemented, it's like an alternative history, right?

Pietro (00:37:01):

It's almost like, you know, what would have happened, that kind of a thing.

Pietro (00:37:04):

But actually,

Pietro (00:37:06):

what happened was with this constitution,

Pietro (00:37:08):

it was kind of basically shelved when Brezhnev and company got in,

Pietro (00:37:12):

right? Brezhnev was never known as being the most dynamic

Pietro (00:37:15):

a Soviet official or a Soviet leader.

Asbed (00:37:16):

I mean, he is synonymous with the gray suit and the conservatism of the Soviet Union.

Pietro (00:37:22):

Yeah, absolutely.

Pietro (00:37:23):

Well, with the Russians,

Pietro (00:37:24):

actually also Russians and Armenians,

Pietro (00:37:25):

what they call zastoy,

Pietro (00:37:26):

what they call the stagnation,

Pietro (00:37:28):

right? Yeah. Although it wasn't stagnation all the time.

Pietro (00:37:30):

I mean, in the early part of Brezhnev,

Pietro (00:37:32):

it was actually still,

Pietro (00:37:33):

you know, it was the economy was still kind of,

Pietro (00:37:35):

it was still quite,

Pietro (00:37:36):

I guess we can say lively.

Pietro (00:37:38):

And even there's a lot of debate among scholars,

Pietro (00:37:41):

when does the thought,

Pietro (00:37:42):

the cultural thought end,

Pietro (00:37:43):

right?

Pietro (00:37:44):

Some scholars say 1964,

Pietro (00:37:45):

some scholars say 1966,

Pietro (00:37:47):

some say 1968,

Pietro (00:37:50):

when Brezhnev decides to go into Czechoslovakia.

Pietro (00:37:52):

But anyway, in the 70s, they do a Brezhnev constitution.

Pietro (00:37:55):

And the Brezhnev Constitution is like a super watered-down version of the 1964

Pietro (00:38:02):

draft constitution.

Pietro (00:38:03):

So a lot of the substance,

Pietro (00:38:04):

a lot of the ideas that were initiated by Mikoyan and Khrushchev are there in the

Pietro (00:38:11):

Brezhnev Constitution in the 70s.

Pietro (00:38:13):

But it's all gutted of its radical democratic ideas.

Pietro (00:38:19):

So the radical socialist democracy of the anti-Stalinist left

Pietro (00:38:23):

was never realized in the Soviet Union,

Pietro (00:38:26):

but we had a watered down version of that,

Pietro (00:38:28):

we can say with Brezhnev.

Pietro (00:38:29):

And even there, there was some controversy.

Pietro (00:38:31):

We can go into the status of the Russian language and things like this, but in any case.

Hovik (00:38:36):

Pietro, you mentioned a meeting,

Hovik (00:38:38):

maybe there were a series of meetings,

Hovik (00:38:41):

but Mikoyan had post-Stalin,

Hovik (00:38:44):

he had meetings with historians,

Hovik (00:38:45):

with Armenian historians.

Hovik (00:38:47):

And one...

Hovik (00:38:49):

aspect of that meeting was that he essentially sought to provide clarifications on

Hovik (00:38:56):

politically sensitive topics that Armenian historians can cover,

Hovik (00:38:59):

such as,

Hovik (00:39:00):

for instance, the Bolshevik collaboration with Kemalist,

Hovik (00:39:06):

and proper historical assessment of early Armenian Bolsheviks,

Hovik (00:39:09):

such as Sarkis Lukashin and Georgi Arutinov.

Hovik (00:39:13):

So tell us more about what he had to say on this topic of,

Hovik (00:39:18):

I guess,

Hovik (00:39:19):

historical research and,

Hovik (00:39:21):

you know,

Hovik (00:39:22):

being accurate in terms of representation of history.

Pietro (00:39:26):

Well, to put it into some historical context,

Pietro (00:39:29):

the Soviet Armenian historians wanted clarification on these issues because they

Pietro (00:39:33):

were developing this book known as the Sketches of the History of the Communist

Pietro (00:39:37):

Party of Armenia.

Pietro (00:39:39):

And so they were thinking,

Pietro (00:39:41):

because Mikoyan was a veteran of the party and he was in the Bolshevik movement in

Pietro (00:39:46):

the Caucasus,

Pietro (00:39:47):

that we could turn to him for some answers on these questions.

Pietro (00:39:53):

And so they met with him in 1962 during his visit to Yerevan in March 1962.

Pietro (00:39:59):

And they asked him all sorts of questions about various issues.

Pietro (00:40:01):

So number one, when was the founding date of the Armenian Communist Party?

Pietro (00:40:05):

Because there are two Armenian Communist Parties.

Pietro (00:40:07):

It's not well known.

Pietro (00:40:09):

There's the Armenian Communist Party that was founded in 1920 with the

Pietro (00:40:12):

Sovietization of Armenia that ruled Armenia from that point on,

Pietro (00:40:15):

that governed Armenia from that point on.

Pietro (00:40:18):

But then earlier, there was a kind of Western Armenian poet,

Pietro (00:40:23):

who founded the Communist Party of Armenia of 1918,

Pietro (00:40:28):

which was largely a party that was largely founded to represent the interests of

Pietro (00:40:34):

Western Armenian refugees.

Pietro (00:40:43):

Right. So refugees from Western Armenia, it was meant to kind of represent their interests.

Pietro (00:40:47):

So there was big controversy in Armenia, really intense debates in Armenia.

Pietro (00:40:52):

When was the founding of the Armenian Communist Party?

Pietro (00:40:54):

Was it 1920 or 1918?

Pietro (00:40:56):

Right. Was it Haikuni's party or was it the Communist Party that was founded in 1920?

Pietro (00:41:03):

And so that's something that Mikoyan addressed.

Pietro (00:41:06):

And he said, well, the one that was in 1920, that's the official one.

Pietro (00:41:09):

But we shouldn't deny the role of Haikuni,

Pietro (00:41:12):

who, by the way,

Pietro (00:41:13):

was a victim of Stalin's repressions.

Pietro (00:41:14):

Right now, also, Mikoyan had his own kind of exchanges with Haikuni.

Pietro (00:41:18):

I talk about that in the book.

Pietro (00:41:19):

I'm not going to go into that here.

Pietro (00:41:20):

But that was one issue.

Pietro (00:41:22):

Then the other one was,

Pietro (00:41:23):

of course, the Bolshevik-Kamalist collaboration,

Pietro (00:41:25):

right,

Pietro (00:41:26):

that resulted in,

Pietro (00:41:27):

you know,

Pietro (00:41:28):

major, major,

Pietro (00:41:29):

as we know, major territorial losses for Armenia,

Pietro (00:41:31):

major loss of life for Armenia.

Pietro (00:41:33):

When we talk about,

Pietro (00:41:34):

you know, the Treaty of Kars,

Pietro (00:41:35):

we talk about the Turkish invasion of Armenia in 1920.

Pietro (00:41:40):

And so actually Mikoyan addresses these issues very frankly.

Pietro (00:41:44):

He says, look, you know what?

Pietro (00:41:46):

Yes, we collaborated,

Pietro (00:41:48):

the Bolsheviks, we collaborated with the Kemalists,

Pietro (00:41:50):

but we also have to understand when you do your research,

Pietro (00:41:52):

your sketches on the history of Armenia,

Pietro (00:41:53):

he's telling the historians this,

Pietro (00:41:55):

Look, you should highlight both sides of the Kemalism.

Pietro (00:41:59):

The Kemalism,

Pietro (00:42:01):

sure, yes, they were saying,

Pietro (00:42:02):

you know, we're progressive and we're anti-feudal and all this and that,

Pietro (00:42:05):

but you also have to highlight that they were national chauvinists,

Pietro (00:42:08):

the Kemalists,

Pietro (00:42:09):

that they were against small peoples,

Pietro (00:42:10):

as he says.

Pietro (00:42:11):

They were against Greeks,

Pietro (00:42:12):

they were against Armenians,

Pietro (00:42:13):

and that they also,

Pietro (00:42:14):

that this resulted in enormous territorial losses for the Armenian people.

Pietro (00:42:19):

So he talks about this issue of territorial loss.

Pietro (00:42:21):

It's not something lost on him, right?

Pietro (00:42:24):

So he talks about that issue.

Pietro (00:42:26):

And there were even,

Pietro (00:42:27):

and that actually,

Pietro (00:42:28):

he was saying that you need to highlight both sides of this whole thing.

Pietro (00:42:32):

And then there was one of these,

Pietro (00:42:34):

you know, there was one of the,

Pietro (00:42:35):

one of the individuals present at this meeting,

Pietro (00:42:38):

Artis Karenyan,

Pietro (00:42:40):

who actually said,

Pietro (00:42:41):

kind of pushed back on Mikoyan a bit and said,

Pietro (00:42:43):

well,

Pietro (00:42:44):

look, you know, well, Lenin,

Pietro (00:42:45):

you know, he was involved with this,

Pietro (00:42:47):

forging this collaboration.

Pietro (00:42:48):

And so he was right.

Pietro (00:42:49):

You know, he was right to do this, right?

Pietro (00:42:51):

And Mikoyan said, well, well,

Pietro (00:42:53):

no, you shouldn't just say that this was a correct decision.

Pietro (00:42:56):

You have to highlight that the Kemalists were chauvinists,

Pietro (00:42:59):

that the Kemalists,

Pietro (00:43:00):

that they killed Armenians,

Pietro (00:43:01):

that they killed Greeks.

Pietro (00:43:04):

We have to show both sides of the, you have to show all sides of the issue.

Pietro (00:43:07):

You can't just say how progressive the Kemalists were.

Pietro (00:43:09):

So,

Pietro (00:43:10):

and actually you have to also have to understand this,

Pietro (00:43:11):

Hovik,

Pietro (00:43:12):

that a more conservative Soviet official like Soslov would have balked at such a

Pietro (00:43:18):

free discussion on such a controversial topic,

Pietro (00:43:21):

which could have,

Pietro (00:43:23):

you know, thrown into question the loyalty of Armenians to the Soviet Union because,

Pietro (00:43:28):

as we know,

Pietro (00:43:29):

this was a very painful issue for Armenians,

Pietro (00:43:31):

you know, the loss of Kars and Surmalu and Ardahan in these regions.

Pietro (00:43:36):

Ani, certainly we can say,

Pietro (00:43:37):

I mean, even I highlight in the book,

Pietro (00:43:40):

and this is not necessarily something new to those who really have studied this

Pietro (00:43:45):

period of the Armenian history of the Sovietization,

Pietro (00:43:48):

but it's still an important fact to highlight how the Bolshevik government

Pietro (00:43:52):

the the soviet government really they attempted to negotiate with the uh Kemalist

Pietro (00:43:57):

government to keep ani within the borders of soviet armenia and what happened is

Pietro (00:44:02):

the the turks they refused you know Kazim Karabekir was took a very hard position

Pietro (00:44:08):

on any border adjustments they also were trying to maybe get border adjustment in

Pietro (00:44:12):

the area of Surmalu with with uh you know uh you know maybe the salt lines there

Pietro (00:44:17):

and and nevertheless

Pietro (00:44:19):

The Turks took a very, very hard position on that.

Pietro (00:44:22):

And not only there,

Pietro (00:44:23):

it was really a continuation of what actually happened in the Alexandropol

Pietro (00:44:26):

negotiations. Because there,

Pietro (00:44:27):

when it was still the First Republic government,

Pietro (00:44:29):

the First Republic also tried to negotiate.

Pietro (00:44:32):

Maybe we can keep on it.

Pietro (00:44:33):

And the Turks refused that.

Pietro (00:44:34):

They took a very hard position.

Pietro (00:44:36):

And the Turks, again,

Pietro (00:44:37):

here with the Bolsheviks,

Pietro (00:44:38):

with the Soviets,

Pietro (00:44:39):

they took the same hard position.

Pietro (00:44:42):

But anyway, my point is that Mikoyan addressed these issues very frankly.

Pietro (00:44:44):

He also talked about collectivization.

Pietro (00:44:47):

the loss of life in collectivization in Armenia.

Pietro (00:44:50):

He talked about the Stalinist repressions openly with them.

Pietro (00:44:53):

He talked about the assessments of various Soviet Armenian leaders,

Pietro (00:44:56):

like, as you say,

Pietro (00:44:57):

Lukashin or Arutinov.

Pietro (00:45:00):

Arutinov, by the way, who had been condemned, you know, I mean, that...

Pietro (00:45:04):

They condemned him as like a lackey of Beria, you know, in 1953.

Pietro (00:45:09):

But of course,

Pietro (00:45:10):

Arutinov's relations with Beria were much more complex,

Pietro (00:45:12):

as I also highlight in the book.

Pietro (00:45:13):

So it's not like an open and shut kind of a thing.

Pietro (00:45:16):

And that's what Mikoyan was trying to highlight,

Pietro (00:45:17):

that,

Pietro (00:45:18):

you know, you have to, you know,

Pietro (00:45:19):

highlight all sides of the issue here.

Pietro (00:45:21):

Yeah.

Hovik (00:45:22):

Yeah.

Hovik (00:45:23):

Awesome. Awesome.

Hovik (00:45:24):

That's so...

Hovik (00:45:25):

Still staying on the topic of history,

Hovik (00:45:27):

you talk about Mikoyan's narratives on the instability and failures of the First

Hovik (00:45:32):

Republic and reliance on the West by the ARF leadership at the time.

Hovik (00:45:41):

He,

Hovik (00:45:42):

I guess, deeply criticized the ARF policies at the time,

Hovik (00:45:45):

especially the alliance with the West.

Hovik (00:45:49):

Can you talk more about what specific thoughts Mikoyan had on this topic itself and

Hovik (00:45:57):

what was the essence of his criticism?

Pietro (00:46:00):

Well, his essence of his criticism is that,

Pietro (00:46:01):

I mean,

Pietro (00:46:02):

Mikoyan, we have to also understand one of the reasons why he's become such a fervent

Pietro (00:46:05):

supporter of the Bolsheviks and of Soviet Russia.

Pietro (00:46:09):

This was actually something that there had been,

Pietro (00:46:11):

you know,

Pietro (00:46:12):

other academics like Liliana Riga kind of speculated this.

Pietro (00:46:16):

But now the archival evidence really proves it beyond a shadow of a doubt that

Pietro (00:46:20):

Mikoyan, a big reason why he goes with the Bolsheviks,

Pietro (00:46:23):

it's not only ideological,

Pietro (00:46:24):

it's not only that he's taken by the Marxist analysis of class and all this and

Pietro (00:46:29):

that.

Pietro (00:46:30):

It's also that he understands that Russia is the ultimate protector of Armenia.

Pietro (00:46:35):

that without the protective umbrella of Russia,

Pietro (00:46:37):

Armenia is exposed to severe threat and even extermination by the Turks.

Pietro (00:46:42):

In his notes for his 1953 speech and his original draft,

Pietro (00:46:45):

he talks about this explicitly,

Pietro (00:46:47):

what happened to the Western Armenians in 1915,

Pietro (00:46:50):

and that we can't allow this to happen,

Pietro (00:46:52):

and that we need the protective umbrella of Russia.

Pietro (00:46:55):

that it's so important fundamentally to our national existence, our national survival.

Pietro (00:47:00):

And it's also not even a question of lesser evil-ism.

Pietro (00:47:02):

This is also what he says,

Pietro (00:47:03):

that with Russia,

Pietro (00:47:05):

we also get access to the great Russian intellectual movements,

Pietro (00:47:08):

the Russian radical revolutionary movement that,

Pietro (00:47:11):

you know,

Pietro (00:47:12):

as he in his own words,

Pietro (00:47:13):

that gave our

Pietro (00:47:14):

national liberation movement among the Armenians, the proper direction and orientation, right?

Pietro (00:47:20):

When we talk about Raffi,

Pietro (00:47:21):

we talk about Nalbandian,

Pietro (00:47:22):

we talk about Abovyan,

Pietro (00:47:24):

these writers,

Pietro (00:47:25):

they were influenced by the radical Russian tradition of those times,

Pietro (00:47:28):

right? That would actually be eventually leading us to the revolutions of 1917.

Pietro (00:47:33):

But in any case, he addresses this, you know, really frankly,

Pietro (00:47:40):

And he, oh,

Pietro (00:47:41):

but at the same time,

Pietro (00:47:42):

you know, as much as he could be really,

Pietro (00:47:43):

really harsh in his criticisms,

Pietro (00:47:45):

as we know,

Pietro (00:47:46):

of the Dashnaks,

Pietro (00:47:47):

or at least that's what I found in my research,

Pietro (00:47:50):

based on this idea of kind of,

Pietro (00:47:51):

you know,

Pietro (00:47:53):

you know, relying on the West,

Pietro (00:47:54):

relying on the United States,

Pietro (00:47:57):

relying on Great Britain,

Pietro (00:47:58):

relying on the Western powers to kind of come in and save the day.

Pietro (00:48:02):

In the end, they did not save the day.

Pietro (00:48:04):

And Mikoyan highlighted that,

Pietro (00:48:05):

that actually by this policy,

Pietro (00:48:07):

you know,

Pietro (00:48:08):

the Dashnaks exposed Armenia to very severe threat.

Pietro (00:48:11):

Now, in all fairness to the Dashnaks,

Pietro (00:48:13):

you know, we know they didn't have an easy situation there with this really difficult years

Pietro (00:48:18):

of the First Republic where they have massive starving refugees coming in.

Pietro (00:48:21):

They have...

Pietro (00:48:22):

you know, Muslim uprisings in Nakhichevan, they have all sorts of problems, right?

Pietro (00:48:27):

And so,

Pietro (00:48:28):

but on the other hand,

Pietro (00:48:29):

Mikoyan also,

Pietro (00:48:31):

sometimes what you notice is that in his notes,

Pietro (00:48:33):

when he's being especially harsh in the Dashnaks,

Pietro (00:48:35):

he ends up crossing it out,

Pietro (00:48:36):

because he thinks maybe he's going too far in his criticism.

Pietro (00:48:39):

And then there's also something else too,

Pietro (00:48:41):

which is interesting, is when he's meeting with the Armenian historians in 1962,

Pietro (00:48:44):

he says,

Pietro (00:48:45):

well, you know what,

Pietro (00:48:46):

you know, the decision of Soviet Armenian authorities to collaborate with

Pietro (00:48:49):

left Dashnaks.

Pietro (00:48:50):

Dashnaks were more left-leaning.

Pietro (00:48:52):

That was a good decision.

Pietro (00:48:54):

At the end of the day, we can co-opt some of these elements of more left-leaning Dashnaks.

Pietro (00:48:59):

So he's not completely shutting the door.

Pietro (00:49:04):

There's at least some kind of level of respect for his opponents,

Pietro (00:49:09):

even though they strongly disagree with each other.

Pietro (00:49:11):

Of course, as we know, Dashnaks are not the biggest fans of Bolsheviks.

Pietro (00:49:15):

But nevertheless,

Pietro (00:49:19):

You can kind of see that there's some kind of...

Pietro (00:49:21):

I mean,

Hovik (00:49:23):

this is a fascinating topic,

Hovik (00:49:24):

and I wanted to actually look at it from the prism of today,

Hovik (00:49:29):

where it seems like we have a lot of similar issues that are like,

Hovik (00:49:33):

you know,

Hovik (00:49:35):

we're in front of and faced with.

Hovik (00:49:38):

And it seems like Armenian leadership of today as well is...

Hovik (00:49:44):

You know, if Mikoyan was here, you'd probably say making the same mistake.

Hovik (00:49:48):

But what modern-day lessons can you learn, can we infer from what Mikoyan had to say?

Hovik (00:49:56):

And, you know, what would be his argument for today?

Pietro (00:50:00):

Well, what I think,

Pietro (00:50:01):

first of all, number one, today,

Pietro (00:50:02):

he would be appalled at what he would be saying.

Pietro (00:50:05):

I mean, there's this Armenian leadership that, again, is repeating the mistakes of the Dashnaks.

Pietro (00:50:09):

And knowing that, also, Hovik, what's amazing to me is that

Pietro (00:50:12):

uh even the I mean the Dashnaks of today understand uh the folly of those policies

Pietro (00:50:18):

that there was a hard lesson in that that the west was not coming to the rescue

Pietro (00:50:23):

that the west in the end betrayed Armenia i'm going to say that quite overtly that

Pietro (00:50:27):

that's really what happened the west made all these promises well even even a

Asbed (00:50:31):

hundred years later we haven't learned those lessons it seems we haven't learned

Pietro (00:50:34):

those lessons but what's amazing to me gentlemen

Pietro (00:50:37):

is how the history of the First Republic more is in Soviet Armenia.

Pietro (00:50:40):

So I'm a historian of Soviet Armenia.

Pietro (00:50:42):

I say this history of the 70 years from 1920 to 1991.

Pietro (00:50:48):

And this is a very understudied period, actually, even in Armenia itself.

Pietro (00:50:53):

Also, even we can say,

Pietro (00:50:54):

I mean, certainly, I mean,

Pietro (00:50:56):

in the West is the case,

Pietro (00:50:57):

but also even in the Russian language literature,

Pietro (00:51:00):

it's not as studied as it should be.

Pietro (00:51:04):

But yet the First Republic in Armenia is studied maybe almost too much, right?

Pietro (00:51:09):

This period of 1918 to 1920.

Pietro (00:51:11):

But that being said,

Pietro (00:51:12):

because so much has been studied on the First Republic,

Pietro (00:51:15):

you would think that more lessons would be taken away from that,

Pietro (00:51:19):

right?

Pietro (00:51:20):

So there's this idea that if you learn the history, you won't repeat your mistakes.

Pietro (00:51:24):

But somehow...

Pietro (00:51:26):

um, we're in the same position again.

Pietro (00:51:27):

And I think that that's what I actually would,

Pietro (00:51:29):

would, would, he would be appalled at what he would be seeing,

Pietro (00:51:31):

you know,

Pietro (00:51:32):

and, and,

Pietro (00:51:33):

and actually this is something that even his grandson Vladimir once told me it was

Pietro (00:51:36):

interesting.

Pietro (00:51:37):

He said that,

Pietro (00:51:38):

you know, like,

Pietro (00:51:39):

um, you know,

Pietro (00:51:40):

what Armenian,

Pietro (00:51:41):

uh, what Armenian is,

Pietro (00:51:43):

is not a patriot except for,

Pietro (00:51:45):

you know, maybe certain individuals.

Pietro (00:51:46):

I'm not going to mention any names here, but you get the idea that

Pietro (00:51:53):

Mikoyan Anastas Ivanovich would be appalled if he were to see what would be going

Pietro (00:51:57):

on today,

Pietro (00:51:58):

and to see the severe threat Armenia was under,

Pietro (00:52:01):

actually, as a matter of fact.

Pietro (00:52:02):

And also not only him, also his son, Sergo.

Pietro (00:52:04):

His son, Sergo, who was an early advocate for the Artsakh movement,

Pietro (00:52:11):

in the late 80s, right?

Pietro (00:52:12):

So when we go back into this whole period of time with these meetings with

Pietro (00:52:14):

Gorbachev,

Pietro (00:52:15):

with Silva Kaputikyan and all these others,

Pietro (00:52:17):

that Sergo was right there with him.

Pietro (00:52:19):

He was supporting the Artsakh movement from those early days to the point that he

Pietro (00:52:24):

basically let his office be used by Artsakh officials.

Pietro (00:52:28):

Artsakh officials like Ghukasian, who are now in Baku,

Asbed (00:52:32):

The book has a lot of material and plenty of evidence about the mistreatment of

Asbed (00:52:36):

Armenians in Baku and the regions,

Asbed (00:52:38):

Artsakh, Nakhichevan,

Asbed (00:52:39):

as you mentioned.

Asbed (00:52:40):

And it seems like Mikoyan was definitely aligned with the idea of bringing Artsakh

Asbed (00:52:45):

into the Armenian SSR.

Asbed (00:52:46):

But you write...

Asbed (00:52:49):

that the problem of Nagorno-Karabakh specifically revealed the limits of informal

Asbed (00:52:53):

politics in the Soviet Union.

Asbed (00:52:55):

So even Mikoyan's network couldn't solve Nagorno-Karabakh under Soviet structures.

Asbed (00:53:00):

Can you talk a little bit about what structural features made resolution impossible

Asbed (00:53:06):

for Nagorno-Karabakh in Mikoyan's times?

Hovik (00:53:11):

Let me add to that that there is also ambiguity in terms of where he actually stood

Hovik (00:53:15):

because there's this letter that

Hovik (00:53:18):

he sent where he apparently,

Hovik (00:53:21):

you know,

Hovik (00:53:23):

argued that Armenia,

Hovik (00:53:25):

Artsakh or Nagorno-Karabakh should remain part of Azerbaijan.

Hovik (00:53:27):

So tell us more also about that aspect, you know, where he really stood.

Pietro (00:53:32):

Okay.

Pietro (00:53:33):

So first of all,

Pietro (00:53:35):

he was,

Pietro (00:53:36):

there is this letter from 1919 that Mikoyan writes to Lenin where he addresses the

Pietro (00:53:42):

Artsakh issue.

Pietro (00:53:43):

And this actually,

Pietro (00:53:45):

what he says in this is that he claims that the Karabakh Armenians,

Pietro (00:53:48):

that the 5th Congress of Karabakh Armenians,

Pietro (00:53:51):

they voted to join a future Soviet Azerbaijan.

Pietro (00:53:54):

But of course he was receiving bad information, because as we know,

Pietro (00:53:59):

the Fifth Congress of Karabakh Armenians,

Pietro (00:54:00):

if you look at the actual resolution from Shushi that was made in 1919,

Pietro (00:54:07):

the early part of 1919,

Pietro (00:54:10):

that they actually say emphatically,

Pietro (00:54:14):

we don't want to be part of any entity with even the slightest connection to

Pietro (00:54:20):

Azerbaijan,

Pietro (00:54:21):

any entity.

Pietro (00:54:22):

So even, I guess,

Pietro (00:54:23):

even the Soviet Azerbaijan would be off limits in this kind of wording,

Pietro (00:54:27):

very strong wording.

Pietro (00:54:29):

And so Mikoyan,

Pietro (00:54:30):

obviously at that point,

Pietro (00:54:32):

and he would be in Baku at the time that he's writing this letter to Lenin.

Pietro (00:54:37):

At that time, basically, he would be maybe under some influence of some other people, right?

Pietro (00:54:45):

We don't know what kind of the context was of him writing that.

Pietro (00:54:48):

But what we can say for sure is that he ultimately did not play a major role in the

Pietro (00:54:54):

final outcome of the Artsakh issue.

Pietro (00:54:56):

ultimately determined it was,

Pietro (00:54:58):

number one,

Pietro (00:54:59):

the defeat of the rebellion in Zangezur,

Pietro (00:55:03):

which is the Njdeh rebellion,

Pietro (00:55:05):

and also Narimanov's pressure and the whole context of the July 1921 vote.

Pietro (00:55:11):

And those events,

Pietro (00:55:12):

that is to say the Zangezur rebellion,

Pietro (00:55:14):

so Arsene Saparov writes a lot about this,

Pietro (00:55:16):

but I'm just going to kind of summarize his findings,

Pietro (00:55:18):

but also they correspond with what most serious academics would conclude on this by

Pietro (00:55:23):

looking at the evidence.

Pietro (00:55:25):

that the Zangezur rebellion being defeated and Narimanov's pressure,

Pietro (00:55:29):

possibly supported by Stalin,

Pietro (00:55:32):

right, that those were the decisive factors that changed that July vote from,

Pietro (00:55:36):

yes,

Pietro (00:55:37):

that Nagorno-Karabakh Artsakh should be part of Soviet Armenia to,

Pietro (00:55:40):

no, it should not.

Pietro (00:55:41):

And Mikoyan was not taking part in that vote.

Pietro (00:55:44):

He wasn't even in the Caucasus at that time.

Pietro (00:55:46):

He was in Nizhni Novgorod.

Pietro (00:55:48):

So he had no influence on this development.

Pietro (00:55:50):

Plus, also, there's, of course, the other different contexts that

Pietro (00:55:53):

you know, once Armenia and Azerbaijan become part of the Soviet Union is different than,

Pietro (00:55:57):

let's say,

Pietro (00:55:58):

having like a Sovietized Azerbaijan and an Armenia outside,

Pietro (00:56:02):

you know,

Pietro (00:56:03):

the Soviet Union,

Pietro (00:56:04):

these kinds of complex issues like this.

Pietro (00:56:07):

So he didn't have any kind of initial position on this.

Pietro (00:56:11):

But what ended up happening is throughout the Soviet period, as we know,

Pietro (00:56:14):

There was discrimination against the Artsakh Armenians.

Pietro (00:56:16):

They kept on periodically raising these issues.

Pietro (00:56:19):

Then this also got the support of the Soviet Armenian government.

Pietro (00:56:24):

First and foremost, Arutinov, after the Second World War, sent an appeal to Stalin about this.

Pietro (00:56:29):

Arutinov would not have made such a move without some consultation with Mikoyan,

Pietro (00:56:33):

because Mikoyan and Arutinov were always consulting with each other.

Pietro (00:56:37):

And in addition to that,

Pietro (00:56:39):

once we get into the thought period,

Pietro (00:56:41):

and these appeals become even more frequent from the Artsakh Armenians,

Pietro (00:56:44):

in particular in 1962,

Pietro (00:56:46):

when they write to Khrushchev about these issues,

Pietro (00:56:49):

Mikoyan becomes more sympathetic in supporting the Soviet-Armenian initiative on

Pietro (00:56:53):

this. Now, there is an assertion, and also not only that,

Pietro (00:56:57):

He's advised by officials in the Soviet Armenian Republic who have roots in Artsakh.

Pietro (00:57:02):

So Yegishe Asatrian writes in his memoir how he's informing Mikoyan about these

Pietro (00:57:07):

events going on,

Pietro (00:57:08):

about the discrimination,

Pietro (00:57:09):

about that they're trying to push us out of Nagorno-Karabakh just like they did in

Pietro (00:57:12):

Naki Chivan.

Pietro (00:57:14):

And Mikoyan later met,

Pietro (00:57:15):

according to his son Sergo,

Pietro (00:57:17):

he later met with an Azerbaijani official at his dacha and berated him and said,

Pietro (00:57:22):

look, you guys are trying to push out Armenians out of Nagorno-Karabakh just like you did

Pietro (00:57:26):

in Nakhichevan.

Pietro (00:57:27):

So he even uses the same wording as what's being told to him by these Armenian

Pietro (00:57:32):

officials with roots in Artsakh.

Pietro (00:57:34):

So he begins to actually support informally the initiatives coming from the

Pietro (00:57:39):

Armenian government in support of the Artsakh Sea demands.

Pietro (00:57:41):

Because you also have to understand,

Pietro (00:57:43):

Hovig and Asbed,

Pietro (00:57:44):

that these demands first and foremost come from the people of Artsakh.

Pietro (00:57:48):

They're not coming from Armenia itself.

Pietro (00:57:50):

But what's happening is that that's influencing the discourse and the leadership.

Pietro (00:57:54):

Because some of these leaders who are in Yerevan are from Artsakh,

Pietro (00:57:57):

and so they know what's going on there.

Pietro (00:57:59):

And so Mikoyan is increasingly supporting this.

Pietro (00:58:02):

And in 1966,

Pietro (00:58:03):

for example,

Pietro (00:58:04):

we know in Kochinyan's memoirs,

Pietro (00:58:05):

Kochinyan recounts that Mikoyan actually took the position of supporting this

Pietro (00:58:10):

initiative of the Soviet Armenian government,

Pietro (00:58:12):

which would at the time be him and Baldomaranyan,

Pietro (00:58:15):

to unify the Nagorno-Karabakh Autonomous Oblast with Soviet Armenia.

Pietro (00:58:19):

Now, there is also allegation today that Mikoyan supported the position of Soslov on this issue.

Pietro (00:58:25):

Now, Soslov was a very prominent,

Pietro (00:58:27):

he was a conservative,

Pietro (00:58:29):

a hardliner in the Soviet leadership,

Pietro (00:58:31):

and he was actually on the side of the Azerbaijanis in this issue.

Pietro (00:58:35):

And actually, Kochinyan recounts this in his memoirs as well.

Pietro (00:58:39):

But Kochinyan,

Pietro (00:58:41):

despite all this stuff in the air you might hear that Mikoyan supported Soslov,

Pietro (00:58:45):

which is very unlikely,

Pietro (00:58:47):

because Mikoyan was,

Pietro (00:58:49):

I guess we could say in the Soviet leadership,

Pietro (00:58:50):

he was a liberal,

Pietro (00:58:52):

versus Soslov,

Pietro (00:58:53):

who was a conservative.

Pietro (00:58:54):

So it's very unlikely that he would be supporting the position of Soslov on this issue.

Pietro (00:58:59):

Very, very unlikely,

Pietro (00:59:00):

especially when his network,

Pietro (00:59:01):

who he's very close with,

Pietro (00:59:03):

he's very, very deeply in touch with,

Pietro (00:59:05):

is working with him on this.

Pietro (00:59:08):

So I would tend to believe what Kochinyan writes, actually.

Pietro (00:59:13):

I think that what happened is ultimately, in the end, the issue on Karabakh,

Pietro (00:59:20):

why it came up, and of course there's also the institutional reasons,

Pietro (00:59:22):

right,

Pietro (00:59:23):

that Baku was within its legal right to veto the Karabakh Armenian demands to join

Pietro (00:59:30):

Soviet Armenia.

Pietro (00:59:31):

But it was not legally,

Pietro (00:59:34):

it was not legal for Baku to do this discrimination against,

Pietro (00:59:37):

as we know, not only Karabakh Armenians,

Pietro (00:59:39):

but also Lezgins,

Pietro (00:59:40):

Talysh,

Pietro (00:59:41):

and other nationalities.

Pietro (00:59:43):

But when I talk about the limitations of informal politics,

Pietro (00:59:46):

I'm talking about the fact that,

Pietro (00:59:47):

yes, Mikoyan and his crew could support

Pietro (00:59:50):

you know,

Pietro (00:59:51):

the Artsakh cause,

Pietro (00:59:52):

but only to such a degree because they would meet resistance from the conservatives

Pietro (00:59:57):

who would have, you know,

Pietro (00:59:58):

the,

Pietro (00:59:59):

who would have the, who would be on the Azerbaijani side.

Pietro (01:00:01):

So like, so Slav, let's say, and they would also have like a legal argument.

Pietro (01:00:05):

We can, we can maybe make that case.

Asbed (01:00:07):

But I guess as it trickled up to Khrushchev,

Asbed (01:00:10):

his response was that these are all Soviet territories in one indivisible country.

Asbed (01:00:15):

So to him,

Asbed (01:00:16):

it didn't really make any sense to deal with the politics and rearrange stuff that

Asbed (01:00:21):

would cost him political capital.

Pietro (01:00:23):

Yeah, well, that came from a meeting where he's meeting with diaspora Armenians in 1961.

Pietro (01:00:32):

And the issue of Artsakh is raised there.

Pietro (01:00:36):

And also the issue of Western Armenia is raised there.

Pietro (01:00:38):

Now, Khrushchev makes a big case that,

Pietro (01:00:40):

you know, Western Armenia,

Pietro (01:00:41):

if we pursued that,

Pietro (01:00:42):

then it would trigger a war with NATO and it would be a big issue.

Pietro (01:00:45):

And we can't have that, you know, that that's.

Pietro (01:00:46):

But you know what he also said in the larger context that don't worry because the

Pietro (01:00:51):

Soviet Union is going to win the Cold War anyway and communism will triumph and all

Pietro (01:00:56):

the Armenians will be united eventually because borders won't matter anymore and

Pietro (01:01:00):

Turkey won't have anything to

Pietro (01:01:01):

say, and then everything will be, you know, just fine.

Pietro (01:01:05):

But then, of course,

Pietro (01:01:06):

there was this issue of Nagorno-Karabakh and Nakhichevan that was also raised by

Pietro (01:01:10):

these diasporan representatives.

Pietro (01:01:11):

And again,

Pietro (01:01:12):

according to Yeghishe Asatrian,

Pietro (01:01:13):

who is a very reliable source,

Pietro (01:01:15):

because his work,

Pietro (01:01:17):

his memoirs are largely corresponding with what we find in the archives,

Pietro (01:01:21):

the transcript of that speech,

Pietro (01:01:22):

the stenogram of that speech,

Pietro (01:01:24):

of that meeting.

Pietro (01:01:26):

That, you know,

Pietro (01:01:27):

you have this response from Khrushchev saying,

Pietro (01:01:28):

well,

Pietro (01:01:29):

you know, it's all,

Pietro (01:01:30):

you know, one Soviet country and very,

Pietro (01:01:32):

very political,

Pietro (01:01:33):

you know,

Pietro (01:01:34):

kind of like,

Pietro (01:01:35):

you know, dodgy kind of evasive response.

Pietro (01:01:38):

But yeah.

Hovik (01:01:39):

Pietro, I want to draw some more historical parallels between Mikoyan and modern times.

Hovik (01:01:52):

The current government of Armenia basically is on a relentless assault on

Hovik (01:01:58):

Armenian values,

Hovik (01:01:59):

traditions,

Hovik (01:02:00):

religion,

Hovik (01:02:01):

history, memory,

Hovik (01:02:03):

and essentially every single bastion that supports Armenian identity.

Hovik (01:02:07):

And Pashinyan has claimed that Armenians should just basically forget about the

Hovik (01:02:12):

Armenian genocide.

Hovik (01:02:13):

Of course, he has forgotten and sometimes codified

Hovik (01:02:19):

The memory loss, I guess.

Hovik (01:02:21):

Yeah, codified the loss of Artsakh, essentially.

Hovik (01:02:24):

You can't even almost criticize it.

Hovik (01:02:27):

And essentially accommodate all of Turkey's demands in order to normalize relations

Hovik (01:02:32):

at all costs.

Pietro (01:02:33):

You mean like appeasing?

Pietro (01:02:34):

Yeah.

Pietro (01:02:35):

And he has claimed that it was Russia...

Hovik (01:02:39):

who pushed Armenia to essentially create an Armenian cause in the 1960s.

Hovik (01:02:45):

So essentially we're all Manchurian candidates,

Hovik (01:02:49):

you know, that were groomed by the KGB to have these thoughts about Armenian nationalism.

Hovik (01:02:56):

I'm not sure how deeply uneducated one has to be to invent such fiction,

Hovik (01:03:02):

let alone believe in it.

Hovik (01:03:04):

Because all you really have to do is read history to get your bearings.

Hovik (01:03:08):

But can you draw some line from Khrushchev's thought towards national sentiments in

Hovik (01:03:16):

the Soviet Union to Armenia's foregrounding of the Armenian cause,

Hovik (01:03:19):

especially as it relates to the Armenian genocide?

Pietro (01:03:23):

Well, the Armenian cause,

Pietro (01:03:24):

as it relates to the Armenian genocide,

Pietro (01:03:25):

this was certainly,

Pietro (01:03:27):

I can absolutely assure you,

Pietro (01:03:28):

something not invented by the Soviet Union.

Pietro (01:03:31):

I mean, I've spent seven years doing research.

Pietro (01:03:34):

I've spent seven years writing this book.

Pietro (01:03:37):

I've spent seven years working in archives.

Pietro (01:03:40):

All right?

Pietro (01:03:41):

After all that time...

Pietro (01:03:43):

what you actually find is that this phenomenon of the Armenian cause,

Pietro (01:03:49):

the demands for recognition of genocide,

Pietro (01:03:52):

the demands for unification between Artsakh and Armenia,

Pietro (01:03:56):

this all comes from below.

Pietro (01:03:57):

This is not coming from above.

Pietro (01:03:59):

This is not coming from Moscow.

Pietro (01:04:00):

It's coming from the people of Armenia, the Armenian Soviet Socialist Republic,

Pietro (01:04:05):

And also, when we talk about Artsakh from the Nagorno-Karabakh autonomous obelisk.

Pietro (01:04:08):

But in terms of the genocide issue, that's definitely coming from the people of Armenia.

Pietro (01:04:13):

And there's not really even a full control.

Pietro (01:04:14):

There's not a control over it.

Pietro (01:04:16):

For instance, in 1965, when they have the demonstrations in Yerevan,

Pietro (01:04:20):

I'm sure that Zarobian,

Pietro (01:04:22):

who is the first secretary of Armenia,

Pietro (01:04:24):

he also has some roots in the lost territories in Artvin.

Pietro (01:04:28):

This is where he's originally from.

Pietro (01:04:30):

So he's sensitive to the genocide issue, as we know.

Pietro (01:04:33):

And he wants to do like a kind of a quiet commemoration of the genocide.

Pietro (01:04:36):

But the protests in Yerevan that happened in 1965, 100,000 people, that was purely spontaneous.

Pietro (01:04:44):

It's ridiculous to say that this was completely invented or made up or anything like that.

Pietro (01:04:49):

And those national sentiments,

Pietro (01:04:51):

those feelings,

Pietro (01:04:52):

the need for survival of the Armenian nation,

Pietro (01:04:55):

the need for survival of the Armenian people,

Pietro (01:04:56):

Hovik.

Pietro (01:04:57):

This is something that completely comes from those Armenians themselves.

Pietro (01:05:01):

The idea, for instance, when you have Western Armenian refugees who come to Armenia,

Pietro (01:05:05):

And they create settlements in Yerevan that are named after their former lands in

Pietro (01:05:10):

Western Armenia, like Arabkir,

Pietro (01:05:12):

let's say, for example.

Pietro (01:05:13):

That all came from the people.

Pietro (01:05:14):

The Soviet government didn't decide to name the settlement Arabkir to get the Turks

Pietro (01:05:18):

upset,

Pietro (01:05:19):

or something like this.

Pietro (01:05:20):

The idea of making Mount Ararat on the Armenian Soviet Socialist Republic coat of arms

Pietro (01:05:26):

That came from the people of Armenia.

Pietro (01:05:27):

That came from the Armenian leadership accommodating those concerns of the people.

Pietro (01:05:32):

You can't be national nihilist in Armenia.

Pietro (01:05:34):

You have to bring in,

Pietro (01:05:35):

and actually because they could also make a good argument that we're against the

Pietro (01:05:38):

imperialist NATO member Turkey when we get into the Cold War,

Pietro (01:05:42):

and so on and so forth.

Pietro (01:05:44):

But the point is that this is all coming from the bottom up.

Pietro (01:05:47):

And we've been saying that for years.

Pietro (01:05:48):

That was the academic consensus.

Pietro (01:05:51):

universally for years that this is this is all coming from the bottom up there's no

Pietro (01:05:55):

evidence none zero that supports this idea that this came from Moscow and it's an

Pietro (01:06:01):

insult moreover I can say as an Armenian that anybody would say that this came from

Pietro (01:06:07):

Moscow yeah this is this is an Armenian issue these are our these are Armenian

Pietro (01:06:11):

demands so for somebody to say that I think it's really really you know beyond the

Pietro (01:06:16):

it's offensive and ignorant to be honest completely absolutely absolutely

Hovik (01:06:22):

yeah it just... to me it's offensive that we have to justify this by talking to

Hovik (01:06:27):

historians and saying that you know we are not mentoring candidates but uh I mean

Asbed (01:06:34):

as as my experience as a diaspora is also from the ground up from the the people up

Asbed (01:06:39):

my grandparents were mostly orphans who survived the genocide they were not

Asbed (01:06:42):

particularly educated

Asbed (01:06:44):

And they spent their lives keeping the Armenian lights on,

Asbed (01:06:48):

so to speak,

Asbed (01:06:49):

becoming Armenian and forming families.

Asbed (01:06:52):

And my parents were educated.

Asbed (01:06:54):

They were patriotic.

Asbed (01:06:55):

And the desire to address Armenian causes,

Asbed (01:06:58):

both the Armenian genocide and the issue of the Western Armenia,

Asbed (01:07:02):

was alive and active from their earliest childhood in the 1930s.

Asbed (01:07:07):

This was they didn't wait until the 60s for the Soviet people to tell them

Asbed (01:07:10):

something us in the in the Middle East at the time.

Asbed (01:07:14):

You know, so I don't know what they're talking about saying.

Pietro (01:07:16):

And also also like even the Soviet Union government,

Pietro (01:07:19):

they're very sensitive to accommodating even the sentiments of the diaspora.

Pietro (01:07:24):

on national issues, on national figures like Andranik.

Pietro (01:07:27):

There was a rehabilitation of Andranik in the 60s,

Pietro (01:07:30):

or attempted rehabilitation of Andranik in the 60s by the Soviet Armenian

Pietro (01:07:33):

government with the support of Mikoyan and Marshal Bagramyan.

Pietro (01:07:38):

And this was actually met some results.

Pietro (01:07:40):

resistance from Azerbaijanis who said,

Pietro (01:07:42):

well, you know,

Pietro (01:07:43):

Andranik was bad for us and all this and that.

Pietro (01:07:45):

He attacked Muslims and so on and so forth.

Pietro (01:07:47):

But there was still this idea that this actually came up in the documents.

Pietro (01:07:51):

You actually find that.

Pietro (01:07:52):

And also Mikoyan,

Pietro (01:07:53):

by the way, in his meeting with the Armenian historians in Yerevan also said that the volunteer

Pietro (01:07:57):

movement of the Armenian volunteer movement of the First World War was a national

Pietro (01:08:01):

liberation movement for Western Armenia.

Hovik (01:08:03):

On the Andranik topic, my grandfather had a picture of Andranik hanging in their home.

Hovik (01:08:15):

And every time I asked around,

Hovik (01:08:16):

they were saying,

Hovik (01:08:17):

hush hush, you know,

Hovik (01:08:18):

he's a hero,

Hovik (01:08:19):

but don't tell anyone.

Hovik (01:08:20):

And then what I found later,

Hovik (01:08:21):

when I grew up,

Hovik (01:08:22):

is every single Armenian had a picture of Andranik hanging on their wall.

Hovik (01:08:26):

And that was like, you know...

Pietro (01:08:28):

Well, there's a very famous,

Pietro (01:08:29):

there's a very famous story in National Geographic in the 70s where some guy goes

Pietro (01:08:34):

to,

Pietro (01:08:35):

he's like, there was a reporter,

Pietro (01:08:36):

I mean, if I remember this correctly,

Pietro (01:08:37):

maybe I'm getting this wrong,

Pietro (01:08:38):

there's a reporter who goes from National Geographic,

Pietro (01:08:40):

he goes to Beirut,

Pietro (01:08:42):

Lebanon, and he goes to this Armenian guy's house and he has a portrait of Andranik on his

Pietro (01:08:45):

wall.

Pietro (01:08:46):

And the guy said, is that Stalin?

Pietro (01:08:48):

And I said, no, this is Andrei, you know.

Pietro (01:08:52):

And so, yeah, no, it's quite interesting.

Pietro (01:08:54):

And we didn't even touch on the de-Stalinization.

Pietro (01:08:56):

Mikoyan played a huge role,

Pietro (01:08:57):

by the way,

Pietro (01:08:58):

as we know,

Pietro (01:08:59):

and we went over in my last podcast,

Pietro (01:09:01):

in de-Stalinization.

Pietro (01:09:02):

All these famous writers, Bakunts, Charents, Totovents, and actually, personally, Aghasi Khanjian.

Pietro (01:09:08):

Mikoyan was personally,

Pietro (01:09:09):

this is one of the discoveries I made in Yerevan,

Pietro (01:09:12):

he personally was involved.

Pietro (01:09:13):

Khanjian's mother wrote to Mikoyan.

Pietro (01:09:15):

after hearing Mikoyan's speech in Yerevan,

Pietro (01:09:17):

where Mikoyan called for the rehabilitation of Charents,

Pietro (01:09:20):

big speech,

Pietro (01:09:21):

which began the Thaw,

Pietro (01:09:22):

the Zinhal in Armenia,

Pietro (01:09:24):

that what happened is there,

Pietro (01:09:27):

that the mother of Khanjian sent a letter to Mikoyan,

Pietro (01:09:31):

and Mikoyan immediately sent that appeal to the Soviet prosecutor general,

Pietro (01:09:36):

this is Roman Rudenko,

Pietro (01:09:38):

and they found, actually, they did a very thorough investigation,

Pietro (01:09:40):

and they found that Beria shot Khanjian,

Pietro (01:09:43):

It was really, really thorough.

Pietro (01:09:45):

It was really good. And that's also something else I found in the archives.

Pietro (01:09:48):

When you look at the 1191,

Pietro (01:09:49):

the repressed person's fund in the Armenian archives in Yerevan,

Pietro (01:09:53):

and Khanjian's file isn't there,

Pietro (01:09:54):

because that reinvestigation was in Moscow at the all-union level.

Pietro (01:09:57):

But the ones that are in Yerevan

Pietro (01:09:59):

you see how thoroughly they went into this like the first half of the file is from

Pietro (01:10:03):

the 30s it's like a fake case and this guy was you know a Dashnak Trotskyite I don't

Pietro (01:10:08):

know how you can reconcile that by the way Dashnak's being so national and Trotsky

Pietro (01:10:12):

being so internationalist but anyway that was the allegation that the Dashnak

Pietro (01:10:15):

Trotskyites right in the 30s yeah anyhow but the bottom line is that was like a

Pietro (01:10:19):

fake case and then in the 50s you're amazed at how scientific

Pietro (01:10:24):

And how thorough these investigations were in the 50s.

Pietro (01:10:27):

They really did their homework.

Pietro (01:10:28):

They really were serious.

Asbed (01:10:29):

That was the NKVD, by the way, investigating?

Pietro (01:10:32):

Well, no, by that time, it would have been the KGB.

Pietro (01:10:35):

We're dealing with a different period of time in the 50s.

Pietro (01:10:37):

But in those days, in the 30s, it would have been NKVD.

Pietro (01:10:40):

But in the 50s,

Pietro (01:10:42):

it's KGB,

Pietro (01:10:44):

and they're looking through,

Pietro (01:10:45):

they're reinvestigating,

Pietro (01:10:47):

you know, all these cases,

Pietro (01:10:48):

like of Sahag Ter-Gabrielyan,

Pietro (01:10:50):

of Danu Shahverdyan,

Pietro (01:10:52):

of Ado Adoyan,

Pietro (01:10:53):

of Charents,

Pietro (01:10:54):

of Bakunts,

Pietro (01:10:55):

of Totovents.

Pietro (01:10:56):

There was even a file of,

Pietro (01:10:58):

you know, where they list all the rehabilitation dates of all these figures who have been

Pietro (01:11:02):

repressed,

Pietro (01:11:03):

as a matter of fact.

Pietro (01:11:04):

So, or Nersik Stepanyan is another one,

Pietro (01:11:06):

you know,

Pietro (01:11:07):

not necessarily terribly well-known today,

Pietro (01:11:09):

but... If you go to Charents's museum on Mashtots Avenue in Yerevan,

Pietro (01:11:13):

there's a plaque of Nersik Stepanyan because he was very vocal against Beria.

Pietro (01:11:18):

And by the way, Beria played a huge role.

Pietro (01:11:20):

in the repressions in Armenia in the 30s.

Pietro (01:11:22):

Huge, huge.

Pietro (01:11:23):

I mean,

Pietro (01:11:24):

it's not even that,

Pietro (01:11:26):

it's not, yeah,

Pietro (01:11:27):

I mean, it's not something... I mean,

Hovik (01:11:28):

you recounted in great detail,

Hovik (01:11:29):

like,

Hovik (01:11:30):

on the, like, you know, the team he sent to Armenia,

Hovik (01:11:32):

his own,

Hovik (01:11:33):

like...

Pietro (01:11:33):

Yeah, absolutely,

Pietro (01:11:34):

absolutely. Well, actually, he was advising Malenkov.

Pietro (01:11:36):

Malenkov would stop in Yerevan with his NKVD team.

Pietro (01:11:40):

And he would be asking Beria for advice on how to do repressions, actually.

Pietro (01:11:43):

So one more thing I just want to say,

Pietro (01:11:46):

gentlemen,

Pietro (01:11:47):

is about the church,

Pietro (01:11:48):

because this is an important topic to address,

Pietro (01:11:50):

too, in the context of today's situation in Armenia.

Pietro (01:11:54):

that Mikoyan was very tolerant toward the Armenian church.

Pietro (01:11:56):

Now you have to think,

Pietro (01:11:57):

he was in the seminary,

Pietro (01:12:00):

he was in the Nersessian school in Tiflis,

Pietro (01:12:02):

then he went to the Gevorkyan seminary at Etchmiadzin.

Pietro (01:12:05):

And then what happened?

Pietro (01:12:06):

He became a revolutionary, a Bolshevik revolutionary.

Pietro (01:12:09):

But nevertheless, he always respected the church.

Pietro (01:12:12):

And in 1955, you know, Vazgen I was elected, as we know, the Catholicos.

Pietro (01:12:18):

And when basically in 1958, Mikoyan came to Yerevan, he met with Vazgen famously.

Pietro (01:12:23):

And he said,

Pietro (01:12:25):

you know, holding a glass of wine and there was a reception that,

Pietro (01:12:27):

you know,

Pietro (01:12:28):

I'm sorry, you know,

Pietro (01:12:29):

I didn't turn out the way in which the church wanted me to turn out.

Pietro (01:12:32):

You know, I mean, I apologize, you know, for this, you know.

Pietro (01:12:35):

for maybe have sinned, you know, in the eyes of the church.

Pietro (01:12:38):

And Vazgen said,

Pietro (01:12:39):

well, no, no,

Pietro (01:12:40):

no, we, you know,

Pietro (01:12:41):

we need, you know,

Pietro (01:12:42):

a few, because Mikoyan said,

Pietro (01:12:43):

you know, I guess it came out like a faulty product speaking in the language of economics.

Pietro (01:12:47):

And Vascon said, well, no, no, no, we want more men like you.

Pietro (01:12:51):

We were proud that such a man like you came out of our church, you know.

Pietro (01:12:55):

So Mikoyan was very tolerant toward the Armenian Apostolic Church and toward

Pietro (01:13:00):

religion in general.

Pietro (01:13:01):

Unlike Khrushchev, by the way, Khrushchev was much less tolerant.

Asbed (01:13:04):

Well, of course, today, as you know, sympathizing with the church gets you in jail.

Asbed (01:13:09):

Mikoyan would probably be in jail in Armenia today.

Pietro (01:13:11):

Yeah, he would be actually in jail, absolutely.

Pietro (01:13:13):

And also,

Pietro (01:13:14):

gentlemen, you know something else,

Pietro (01:13:15):

that even his Armenian identity came up in major negotiations.

Pietro (01:13:19):

Now, we know that Mikoyan played a huge role in defusing the Cuban Missile Crisis,

Pietro (01:13:24):

right, in persuading Castro to remove the missiles from the island of Cuba.

Pietro (01:13:29):

And there was a great kind of a joke that I found in my research where he's

Pietro (01:13:34):

negotiating with Che Guevara.

Pietro (01:13:36):

Right.

Pietro (01:13:37):

And Che is incredibly intransigent in these negotiations between the USSR and Cuba.

Pietro (01:13:43):

And he's talking with Mikoyan.

Pietro (01:13:45):

And Mikoyan,

Pietro (01:13:46):

out of frustration,

Pietro (01:13:47):

finally says, well, you know,

Pietro (01:13:48):

now I know exactly why they call you Che.

Pietro (01:13:51):

Because Che means no in Armenian.

Pietro (01:13:54):

And actually, Che thought this was enormously funny.

Pietro (01:13:57):

He was roaring with laughter, you know.

Pietro (01:13:59):

So, yeah, there you go.

Asbed (01:14:01):

That's funny.

Asbed (01:14:04):

Pietro, thank you very much for joining us.

Asbed (01:14:06):

This book is endlessly interesting.

Asbed (01:14:08):

We're going to put links in the show notes so that people can find it and buy it.

Asbed (01:14:14):

We hope we can have you again on the show for various topics as always.

Asbed (01:14:18):

Absolutely.

Asbed (01:14:19):

Great conversation.

Asbed (01:14:20):

Thank you so much.

Asbed (01:14:21):

As always.

Pietro (01:14:22):

Thank you, Asbed. Thank you, Hovik.

Pietro (01:14:23):

It's great being on your show as always.

Pietro (01:14:25):

And I look forward to coming back once again.

Hovik (01:14:28):

Great discussion.

Hovik (01:14:29):

Thank you. Thank you.

Asbed (01:14:32):

That's our show today.

Asbed (01:14:33):

This episode was recorded,

Asbed (01:14:35):

as we said, on October 18,

Asbed (01:14:36):

and we're publishing it on October 21,

Asbed (01:14:39):

on the 47th anniversary of Mikoyan's passing.

Asbed (01:14:43):

We've been talking with Dr.

Asbed (01:14:44):

Pietro Shakarian,

Asbed (01:14:45):

who is a historian of Russia,

Asbed (01:14:47):

Armenia, and the Soviet Union,

Asbed (01:14:49):

and a lecturer in history at the American University of Armenia.

Asbed (01:14:52):

He was previously a postdoctoral fellow at the Center for Historical Research at

Asbed (01:14:57):

the National Research University Higher School of Economics in St.

Asbed (01:15:01):

Petersburg.

Hovik (01:15:03):

All right. Well,

Hovik (01:15:04):

one last call to,

Hovik (01:15:07):

you know, the routine like comment and share our podcast with your friends and help us boost

Hovik (01:15:14):

our rankings in the algorithms that seem to be currently suppressing us a little

Hovik (01:15:20):

bit. So we need to fight back and you can help us do that.

Hovik (01:15:24):

And in the meantime, I'm Hovik Manucharyan from Glendale.

Asbed (01:15:28):

Sunny Glendale this time.

Asbed (01:15:31):

I'm Asbed Bedrossian.

Asbed (01:15:32):

I'm in Sunny Glendale as well.

Asbed (01:15:34):

We will talk to you soon.

Hovik (01:15:36):

Take care, folks.

Asbed (01:15:37):

Bye-bye.

Head Shot

Asbed Bedrossian

Co-host
Head Shot

Hovik Manucharyan

Co-host
Head Shot

Pietro Shakarian

Guest

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