Armenian News Network - Groong: Week In Review Podcast

Diana Mkrtchyan - Ojakh, the Other Side of Silence - a Marvel to Behold | Ep 499, Jan 30, 2025

• Armenian News Network / Groong • Episode 499

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The Critical Corner - Recorded on: December 27, 2025

In this episode, guest host Bedros Afeyan speaks with documentary filmmaker Diana Mkrtchyan about her feature documentary *Ojakh: On the Other Side of Silence*. The conversation traces the film’s nine-year development, its origins in Turkish photographer Erhan Arik’s *Horovel* project, and the urgent effort to document the last living Armenian Genocide survivors in border villages. The discussion also addresses artistic responsibility, dignity in testimony, cultural memory, censorship, and the continuity between Genocide-era trauma and the recent destruction of Artsakh.


Topics

  • Diana Mkrtchyan’s personal and artistic journey
  • The origins of *Ojakh* in Erhan Arik’s photographic work
  • Filming the final testimonies of Armenian Genocide survivors
  • Ethical and technical challenges of documenting trauma
  • The erasure of *Ojakh* from official cultural promotion in Armenia
  • Cinema as historical record and moral witness
  • Mkrtchyan’s Artsakh footage during the blockade


Guest


Guest Hosts


Episode 499 | Recorded: December 27, 2025

https://podcasts.groong.org/499


Subscribe and follow us everywhere you are: linktr.ee/groong

Asbed (00:00:06):

Hello, everyone.

Asbed (00:00:07):

I'm Asbed Bedrossian.

Asbed (00:00:09):

Welcome to a different type of episode today.

Asbed (00:00:11):

This show is based on a critical review article in Groong's TCC,

Asbed (00:00:15):

The Critical Corner column on our website.

Asbed (00:00:18):

You can check it out at groong.org/tcc.

Asbed (00:00:22):

The article dated December 15,

Asbed (00:00:25):

2025 is by Dr.

Asbed (00:00:26):

Bedros Afeyan,

Asbed (00:00:27):

our guest host today,

Asbed (00:00:29):

titled - A Critical Essay on the Movie Ojakh,

Asbed (00:00:32):

A Marvel to Behold.

Asbed (00:00:34):

Today, Bedros will be talking with Diana Mkrtchyan,

Asbed (00:00:37):

the director of this film,

Asbed (00:00:39):

and we'll put as much information as we have in the show notes at

Asbed (00:00:44):

podcasts.Groong.org/episode-number.

Asbed (00:00:45):

So please check out that page.

Asbed (00:00:48):

Dr. Bedros Afeyan is a theoretical physicist specializing in plasma physics and laser

Asbed (00:00:54):

fusion since 1980.

Asbed (00:00:56):

He also paints, sculpts, and writes poetry.

Asbed (00:01:00):

He is keenly interested in classical music, classical guitar, theater, cinema, and chess.

Asbed (00:01:05):

He lives and works in Palo Alto with his wife, Mariné.

Asbed (00:01:09):

They've been together since the day they met in March 1998.

Asbed (00:01:14):

Diana Mkrtchyan grew up in Armenia and graduated in Cinematographic Studies in Moscow.

Asbed (00:01:19):

She is the author of five documentary films.

Asbed (00:01:23):

Her first short fiction film,

Asbed (00:01:25):

Gata, was selected for the Cannes Festival in 2008 and received numerous awards at

Asbed (00:01:31):

international festivals.

Asbed (00:01:33):

On the Other Side of Silence is her first feature documentary.

Asbed (00:01:37):

The film has already received several international awards,

Asbed (00:01:40):

including Best Director in France and Best International Documentary in New York.

Asbed (00:01:46):

Please leave lots of comments and messages under this YouTube video for this show

Asbed (00:01:50):

for both Bedros and Diana.

Asbed (00:01:52):

I'll make sure they'll see them and who knows, maybe some of them will get them to write back.

Asbed (00:01:58):

Okay, on with the show.

Bedros (00:02:03):

Today,

Bedros (00:02:04):

we have the pleasure of speaking to Diana Mkrtchyan,

Bedros (00:02:07):

who made this fabulous movie called Ojakh,

Bedros (00:02:12):

which we hope to be able to tell you on some time scale will be available to

Bedros (00:02:18):

stream.

Bedros (00:02:19):

But I saw it at the Golden Gate Armenian Film Festival in San Francisco two months

Bedros (00:02:25):

ago,

Bedros (00:02:26):

and it just blew me away.

Bedros (00:02:27):

Of all the movies I saw, which included things about

Bedros (00:02:33):

or Parajanov or the entire of Armenian movies, this is what impressed me.

Bedros (00:02:41):

And I wanted to speak to her.

Bedros (00:02:42):

I've written about this movie,

Bedros (00:02:44):

my critical essay,

Bedros (00:02:45):

which you can find at www.groong.org/tcc,

Bedros (00:02:52):

where TCC stands for The Critical Corner.

Bedros (00:02:55):

So I encourage you to read it.

Bedros (00:02:57):

But today we're going to have the great pleasure of speaking to Diana directly.

Bedros (00:03:02):

and asking a lot of more in-depth questions about the movie and how it was made.

Bedros (00:03:10):

Welcome, Diana.

Diana (00:03:12):

Thank you.

Diana (00:03:13):

Hello.

Bedros (00:03:14):

Now, Diana, let's start by introducing the audience to you, the famous Diana Mkrtchyan.

Bedros (00:03:24):

Where does she hail from?

Bedros (00:03:27):

What was her education, formation, background?

Bedros (00:03:30):

And then what international journey,

Bedros (00:03:32):

like all Armenians,

Bedros (00:03:33):

you know, like Asbed and I were born in Beirut,

Bedros (00:03:35):

then we moved to Canada,

Bedros (00:03:37):

now we're in the US.

Bedros (00:03:38):

So in your case,

Bedros (00:03:39):

you have Akhalkalak,

Bedros (00:03:42):

Gyumri, Yerevan,

Bedros (00:03:43):

Moscow,

Bedros (00:03:44):

and Caen,

Bedros (00:03:45):

France,

Bedros (00:03:46):

where you've been for the better part of the last two decades.

Bedros (00:03:49):

Tell us about that journey.

Bedros (00:03:51):

Where does Diana Mkrtchyan come from?

Diana (00:03:54):

Okay.

Diana (00:03:55):

So, first of all, thank you very much for your feedback on Ojakh.

Diana (00:04:00):

It truly means a lot to me.

Diana (00:04:03):

So, who is Diana?

Diana (00:04:06):

I was born in 1978 in Akhalkalaki, an Armenian enclave in Georgia.

Diana (00:04:14):

And so it was the time of Soviet Union and I grew up in Leninakan.

Diana (00:04:19):

It was still called Leninakan at the time.

Diana (00:04:22):

And when I was 15,

Diana (00:04:23):

we moved to Moscow because my parents were divorced and my father was living in

Diana (00:04:29):

Moscow. So my mother, after the closing of Russian speaking universities and so on,

Diana (00:04:37):

My mother, she decided to move to Moscow because all our education was in Russian.

Diana (00:04:44):

My mother,

Diana (00:04:45):

she also,

Diana (00:04:46):

she's Russian speaking and she's a specialist of Russian language and literature.

Diana (00:04:52):

So she preferred to move to Moscow just to offer us the Russian education, if you want.

Diana (00:05:00):

And so we moved when I was 14 years old, 14, 15.

Diana (00:05:05):

And all my studies, high school studies, I made in Moscow.

Diana (00:05:12):

And so I put a couple of years,

Diana (00:05:15):

well, a couple,

Diana (00:05:17):

I put,

Diana (00:05:19):

I think 10 years,

Diana (00:05:20):

maybe 15 years to,

Diana (00:05:21):

I was looking myself,

Diana (00:05:22):

in fact.

Diana (00:05:23):

So I did a lot of studies in all schools,

Diana (00:05:30):

three universities,

Diana (00:05:31):

then journaling studies,

Diana (00:05:34):

political studies,

Diana (00:05:35):

and then cinema school.

Diana (00:05:38):

So, in fact, it was really a very personal search.

Diana (00:05:44):

So that eventually I found myself in cinema.

Diana (00:05:49):

So it was my journey, if you want, but I didn't pass from Yerevan.

Diana (00:05:52):

So it was really Akhalkalaki, Gyumri, now it's Gyumri.

Diana (00:05:59):

and then Moscow,

Diana (00:06:00):

and now I'm living in France,

Diana (00:06:02):

in Normandy, in the city,

Diana (00:06:04):

in Cannes,

Diana (00:06:07):

in Normandy,

Diana (00:06:09):

because I fell in love with a French guy,

Diana (00:06:13):

and so during 18 years I'm living in France now,

Diana (00:06:18):

so it was my journey.

Bedros (00:06:20):

By the way, I wanted to tell you that Cannes is famous,

Bedros (00:06:25):

Unlike what I said to you last time we spoke,

Bedros (00:06:27):

because École Normale Supérieure de Caen is the best applied math education you can

Bedros (00:06:33):

have in France.

Bedros (00:06:34):

And I have co-authors on papers,

Bedros (00:06:37):

very famous plasma physicists and mathematicians who studied in Caen.

Bedros (00:06:42):

So when I told you I don't know where Caen is, I was lying.

Bedros (00:06:46):

So forget about that.

Bedros (00:06:47):

All right, so that's your journey, personal journey.

Bedros (00:06:51):

You didn't include the fact that you're also a psychologist and you help people.

Bedros (00:06:58):

So you have many jobs and many hats.

Bedros (00:07:00):

You're an Armenian teacher.

Bedros (00:07:02):

You're a mother.

Bedros (00:07:05):

So you're a very, very multifaceted person.

Diana (00:07:08):

Yes, many lives.

Diana (00:07:09):

Yes.

Bedros (00:07:10):

Right.

Diana (00:07:11):

It's resilient Armenians.

Bedros (00:07:12):

You're like a cat.

Bedros (00:07:14):

Okay.

Bedros (00:07:15):

Now, having spoken about you, let's talk about the movie Ojakh.

Bedros (00:07:24):

As everybody knows, I guess, Ojakh means hearth in Armenian.

Bedros (00:07:29):

It's the sort of central kernel of a home in a villager's life in Armenia or in

Bedros (00:07:36):

Western Armenia and all the villages that we used to have.

Bedros (00:07:40):

which we no longer have.

Bedros (00:07:43):

And the house was sort of around the Ojakh.

Bedros (00:07:45):

That was the warm place where people made bread and food and sat around the women

Bedros (00:07:51):

and the children and so on.

Bedros (00:07:53):

So your movie Ojakh starts with a Turkish photographer's exhibit by the name of

Bedros (00:08:02):

Erhan Arik,

Bedros (00:08:04):

which you saw in 2015.

Bedros (00:08:06):

I think he was exhibiting

Bedros (00:08:08):

2010, or maybe you went to Armenia in 2008, actually.

Bedros (00:08:12):

That's what it says in your movie.

Bedros (00:08:15):

Now,

Bedros (00:08:16):

tell us about how that inspired you and what actions it moved you towards,

Bedros (00:08:24):

and how you ended up preserving the last testimonies of the soon-to-perish actual

Bedros (00:08:31):

survivors

Bedros (00:08:33):

from the border towns 100 years later.

Bedros (00:08:37):

And it's important to say that most Armenian genocide

Bedros (00:08:43):

testimonies of survivors come from people who were in Western Armenia,

Bedros (00:08:49):

who then went abroad,

Bedros (00:08:50):

who then went to the West and lived their lives as diasporites.

Bedros (00:08:55):

While the people you made a movie out of,

Bedros (00:08:57):

and that's what its real distinguishing feature is,

Bedros (00:09:00):

Turkish roots or not,

Bedros (00:09:02):

is these people went and lived in Armenia and right across the border.

Bedros (00:09:07):

So they didn't even move.

Bedros (00:09:09):

And they were right there.

Bedros (00:09:10):

And so in some sense, there's less

Bedros (00:09:13):

dilution,

Bedros (00:09:14):

life of 100 years,

Bedros (00:09:15):

didn't change them as much as it did the people who went to Beirut or Syria or

Bedros (00:09:20):

Paris or Marseille.

Bedros (00:09:23):

And so there's a very different feel to that which you captured.

Bedros (00:09:26):

So tell us,

Bedros (00:09:27):

please,

Bedros (00:09:30):

Erhan Arik's journey and your journey that dovetailed around it with him to go and

Bedros (00:09:36):

capture these things which are very unique.

Diana (00:09:40):

Yes.

Diana (00:09:43):

So, you know,

Diana (00:09:45):

the part of my,

Diana (00:09:47):

the side of my father also comes from that part of Armenia,

Diana (00:09:52):

from Kars and from Mush.

Diana (00:09:55):

the grandfather of my father also comes from there, from .

Diana (00:10:03):

So I met Erhan in 2015 when I was in Nancy and I had been invited there for an

Diana (00:10:12):

exhibition by Armand Tadevosyan,

Diana (00:10:14):

a close friend of mine who is a painter and who was exhibiting together with Erhan.

Diana (00:10:20):

So, and I was truly shaken,

Diana (00:10:25):

deeply touched by the photographs of Erhan and combined by the stories of these

Diana (00:10:34):

people and also by the poetic texts written by Erhan.

Diana (00:10:42):

And they were philosophical texts.

Diana (00:10:46):

texts that made me think a great deal.

Diana (00:10:49):

At the time,

Diana (00:10:50):

I was already very interested in trauma,

Diana (00:10:52):

transgenerational trauma,

Diana (00:10:54):

and then I made the studies in clinical psychology to really begin to work with

Diana (00:11:00):

this trauma,

Diana (00:11:01):

and especially trauma that remains undigested,

Diana (00:11:05):

trauma that cannot be integrated into the psychic space.

Diana (00:11:09):

So I kept asking myself, how can we begin to accept this?

Diana (00:11:14):

How can we try to integrate a trauma such as genocide?

Diana (00:11:18):

And I had my own questions, very personal ones.

Diana (00:11:20):

And when I met Erhan,

Diana (00:11:22):

when I met his photographs and also met his texts,

Diana (00:11:27):

so I really felt that I was not alone in that kind of questioning.

Diana (00:11:36):

And I remember thinking, maybe the answer is here.

Diana (00:11:39):

Maybe it's through this poetic voice that Erhan managed to integrate this

Diana (00:11:46):

experience into his inner world.

Diana (00:11:50):

And that is where we met, in that shared space.

Diana (00:11:55):

And afterwards, I went up to him and I presented myself and I asked him if...

Diana (00:12:04):

He's the author of these photographs.

Diana (00:12:07):

And he says, yes.

Diana (00:12:09):

And so I said, my name is Diana Mkrtchyan.

Diana (00:12:11):

I'm a filmmaker.

Diana (00:12:13):

And I think that your work needs to be translated into a cinematic language.

Diana (00:12:21):

So what do you think about?

Diana (00:12:24):

And he said, you want to make a film?

Diana (00:12:28):

Yeah, I said, yes.

Diana (00:12:30):

I think that I want to really translate this information into the cinematographical language.

Diana (00:12:37):

What do you think about?

Diana (00:12:38):

And he said, okay, I agree.

Diana (00:12:40):

So that was our meeting with Erhan.

Diana (00:12:43):

First meeting with Erhan was like that.

Bedros (00:12:46):

What do you think were the psychic,

Bedros (00:12:48):

the word we say in English is psychic,

Bedros (00:12:50):

not psychic,

Bedros (00:12:51):

so psychic trauma that he felt or might have felt that led him to do the work he

Bedros (00:12:58):

did,

Bedros (00:12:59):

which led to the exhibit called Horovel,

Bedros (00:13:02):

which, as you know,

Bedros (00:13:03):

is the name of a very famous Gomidas song of a villager screaming in a valley.

Bedros (00:13:09):

Oh, Horovel.

Bedros (00:13:12):

Yari, yari, yari, yari, Horovel.

Bedros (00:13:15):

all the echoes that come and go and sustain the truth of that search,

Bedros (00:13:20):

which is a wonderful...

Bedros (00:13:21):

I don't know how this guy does it,

Bedros (00:13:23):

keeps on finding good Iranian words,

Bedros (00:13:25):

but that aspect of it,

Bedros (00:13:28):

what do you think are the traumas as a psychologist yourself that you think Erhan

Bedros (00:13:33):

was...

Bedros (00:13:35):

I'm only an armchair psychologist,

Bedros (00:13:38):

so I'm wondering what you could say about his state and how this experience...

Bedros (00:13:44):

changed him.

Diana (00:13:47):

So I think that this question maybe it will be more correct to ask to Erhan because

Diana (00:13:52):

I really don't want to analyze Erhan like a psychologist,

Diana (00:13:58):

even I can.

Diana (00:14:00):

That's why I think that Erhan is someone who is not indifferent.

Diana (00:14:06):

in his life.

Diana (00:14:07):

And he was asking to himself the questions about Armenians,

Diana (00:14:11):

about Greeks,

Diana (00:14:12):

about Ottoman Empire,

Diana (00:14:16):

about Kurds.

Diana (00:14:17):

So it's someone who really asked himself the questions that he

Diana (00:14:24):

He's not agreed to just, you know, accept some ready answers.

Diana (00:14:32):

He wants to find his own answers.

Diana (00:14:35):

That's why I think that it's not,

Diana (00:14:38):

for me,

Diana (00:14:39):

it's not by chance that Iran really was the one who did this journey.

Diana (00:14:45):

It's not by chance.

Diana (00:14:47):

So I really don't believe in chance, in fact.

Diana (00:14:52):

So that's why I think this question,

Diana (00:14:56):

Erhan can answer better than me,

Diana (00:15:00):

but what's really important is our meeting and the journey that we met,

Diana (00:15:05):

that we did together,

Diana (00:15:07):

you know.

Diana (00:15:09):

These meetings with his heroes, of course, they transformed Erhan, of course.

Diana (00:15:17):

But I don't want to analyze him really like a psychologist.

Diana (00:15:21):

I think there is something...

Diana (00:15:24):

intergenerational in his story also,

Diana (00:15:27):

because he's a Turk who comes from Turk Meshkhets,

Diana (00:15:30):

you know, who was deported by Stalin from Georgia.

Diana (00:15:35):

And in fact, we were born with him

Diana (00:15:39):

already in the same place,

Diana (00:15:40):

if you want,

Diana (00:15:41):

because when we spoke a lot during the shooting,

Diana (00:15:45):

and one evening after the shooting when we spoke,

Diana (00:15:49):

we found out that we were burned not far from each other,

Diana (00:15:55):

because I was born in the motherland of my mother,

Diana (00:16:01):

and he was born in ,

Diana (00:16:02):

he says,

Diana (00:16:03):

it's not far from.

Diana (00:16:05):

And in fact, his family was deported by Stalin.

Diana (00:16:11):

So I think that in our genes, we have that migration, resilience, everything.

Diana (00:16:19):

So we're carrying some information that even we are not aware about.

Diana (00:16:22):

That's why.

Bedros (00:16:27):

Yeah, I think that could be called The Turk in Me and the Armenian in Him.

Bedros (00:16:31):

That would be a very good movie title.

Bedros (00:16:34):

But also it reminds me of Hamo Sahyan's poetic verse, which says,

Bedros (00:16:45):

This,

Bedros (00:16:54):

I never understood how we met story,

Bedros (00:16:57):

which of course precedes all significant meanings,

Bedros (00:17:01):

is beautifully captured in the story that you have in your movie.

Bedros (00:17:05):

Your movie was being made 10 years before you joined.

Bedros (00:17:10):

It's a dance here.

Bedros (00:17:11):

It started and then you came in and finished.

Bedros (00:17:13):

which is amazing.

Bedros (00:17:15):

Well,

Bedros (00:17:16):

so that's all very poetic,

Bedros (00:17:17):

but let's go on to the difficulties and the sticky points that you had to face

Bedros (00:17:22):

because this couldn't have been an easy journey.

Bedros (00:17:24):

This is not a Walt Disney movie,

Bedros (00:17:27):

which are not easy either,

Bedros (00:17:28):

but still with all the money they have to make back.

Bedros (00:17:31):

But in your case, that wasn't the problem.

Bedros (00:17:33):

You had a very, very small budget.

Bedros (00:17:36):

And then the question is, how do you make a piece of art that has its own reality

Bedros (00:17:43):

while it's following another artist's expression and actually inspired by another

Bedros (00:17:50):

artist's expression.

Bedros (00:17:52):

In this case, Erhan Arik's expression.

Bedros (00:17:56):

How do you make it match?

Bedros (00:17:58):

How do you make it different?

Bedros (00:18:00):

How did the Armenians and the Turks and the Kurds that you interviewed

Bedros (00:18:05):

already make it much different than a bunch of images on a wall with a lot of

Bedros (00:18:09):

poetic lines,

Bedros (00:18:10):

probably poetically chosen,

Bedros (00:18:12):

so that the Turkish Secret Service doesn't put him in jail.

Diana (00:18:18):

So, yes, we have some technical difficulties.

Diana (00:18:23):

This is very amazing.

Diana (00:18:25):

How was it?

Diana (00:18:26):

So,

Diana (00:18:27):

in the beginning, it was very quick,

Diana (00:18:28):

you know,

Diana (00:18:29):

and when I was in this exposition,

Diana (00:18:34):

I proposed to Erhan to really make a film together.

Diana (00:18:37):

He said, okay.

Diana (00:18:39):

Then I presented the project into Normandy Cinema House, if you want, Cinema Center.

Diana (00:18:47):

and it was accepted, and I had some financial aid to write the script.

Diana (00:18:52):

Then we had some financial aid,

Diana (00:18:54):

about 5,000 euros,

Diana (00:18:55):

to develop this project,

Diana (00:18:57):

and then I went to Armenia to film.

Diana (00:18:59):

So it was very quickly, in fact, it's unimaginable in France.

Diana (00:19:06):

Such a rapidity in cinema, it's unimaginable in French systems.

Bedros (00:19:10):

Well, everything has to be marinated in France.

Bedros (00:19:13):

We know that.

Diana (00:19:14):

Yes.

Diana (00:19:17):

But then it took a time, about 10 years, okay, this film.

Diana (00:19:23):

So I think that every film has its own life, its own pregnancy, you know.

Bedros (00:19:31):

Every project is... Gestation.

Bedros (00:19:33):

Instead of nine months, you did nine years of gestation, I think.

Diana (00:19:36):

Yes, that's right.

Diana (00:19:37):

Yes, exactly.

Bedros (00:19:39):

You had done the nine months three times.

Bedros (00:19:41):

You tried the nine-year version.

Bedros (00:19:43):

This is very Armenian.

Diana (00:19:44):

Yes.

Diana (00:19:46):

And so, of course, we have some technical problems.

Diana (00:19:52):

We had some problems with the Russian military, with the Armenian military.

Diana (00:19:58):

So, because we were shooting on the…

Diana (00:20:02):

Border villages that are really controlled by Russian military and Armenian military.

Diana (00:20:08):

So we shot this film in... Border Patrol.

Bedros (00:20:11):

Border Patrol, yes.

Bedros (00:20:12):

So we shot this film in 2016.

Diana (00:20:13):

So it was before the war in Artsakh, okay, for Artsakh.

Diana (00:20:26):

We had that problem,

Diana (00:20:28):

we needed their permission to,

Diana (00:20:32):

shooting permission on the border villages because it was very close to Turkey,

Diana (00:20:37):

very,

Diana (00:20:38):

very close.

Diana (00:20:39):

And that permission we get thanks to Golden Apricot Festival and Rafi Hovanesyan

Diana (00:20:48):

and Susanna Harutyunyan.

Diana (00:20:50):

So we had some people there.

Diana (00:20:51):

So really helped us with this permission.

Diana (00:20:55):

And so it was one of technical, it was a problem, but it could be a technical problem.

Diana (00:21:01):

So we had some letter,

Diana (00:21:03):

we had some telephone number,

Diana (00:21:05):

and when we entered to the village,

Diana (00:21:08):

you know, we were already followed by...

Diana (00:21:15):

white jigouli, you know, that car.

Diana (00:21:19):

We were followed all the time.

Diana (00:21:21):

All the time we were followed.

Diana (00:21:22):

Because really when you come to Armenia like a tourist, you don't feel it.

Diana (00:21:28):

And so in 2016, you didn't feel it, that it was like that.

Diana (00:21:33):

When you take the

Diana (00:21:35):

And when you go to the border villages with your team to shoot,

Diana (00:21:43):

and really you felt that,

Diana (00:21:45):

no, you are followed.

Diana (00:21:46):

You are followed by militars.

Diana (00:21:48):

You are followed by other cars that are going to stop you.

Diana (00:21:53):

And so it was like that.

Diana (00:21:54):

Anyway.

Bedros (00:21:54):

You can think of it as security, Diana.

Bedros (00:21:57):

Besides, you were obviously shpion, Diana.

Bedros (00:21:59):

So, you know, they knew what they were doing.

Diana (00:22:01):

Yes.

Diana (00:22:02):

And because I had a French passport, Erhan, he had the Turkish passport.

Diana (00:22:07):

And so we have some Armenian guys with us.

Diana (00:22:10):

So, yes, maybe we were the shpion also.

Bedros (00:22:13):

You know, there's an old Soviet joke that this reminds me of.

Bedros (00:22:18):

A guy goes to Moscow and he sees that all the police are always three by three.

Bedros (00:22:23):

You know, they're always walking around three at a time and says, what is that?

Bedros (00:22:27):

Now, remember, Erhan is good with words.

Bedros (00:22:30):

You're good with images.

Bedros (00:22:32):

So you can see the resonance.

Bedros (00:22:34):

And so the guide explains by saying, oh, one of these can read.

Bedros (00:22:40):

And one of them can write.

Bedros (00:22:43):

And so the American says, and what's the third guy doing?

Bedros (00:22:46):

He says, oh, he's looking over these two intellectuals.

Bedros (00:22:50):

So you had this experience in Armenia in 2016.

Bedros (00:22:54):

He could write and you could read and it's very dangerous stuff.

Bedros (00:22:58):

Okay, fine.

Bedros (00:22:59):

So you told us about some of the difficulties, but there's also the survivors.

Bedros (00:23:06):

Let's talk about, you keep saying you did this fast.

Bedros (00:23:10):

But of course, the elephant in the room is that these were people who were next to being dead.

Bedros (00:23:15):

They were 105, 106.

Bedros (00:23:18):

You couldn't have taken your time, or let's call it French movie time, to make the interviews.

Bedros (00:23:24):

They would have been dead already.

Bedros (00:23:25):

So you felt that.

Bedros (00:23:26):

So were they aware of their mortality?

Bedros (00:23:29):

Did they know that this will be their last will and testament in some sense,

Bedros (00:23:33):

which it ended up being?

Diana (00:23:36):

Yes, yes, yes, yes.

Diana (00:23:42):

I had no time, really.

Diana (00:23:43):

I had no time because when I saw the photographs of Erhan,

Diana (00:23:50):

I really followed my intuition,

Diana (00:23:52):

if you want.

Diana (00:23:53):

It was more than that.

Diana (00:23:56):

I followed something unknown, something that woke up inside me when I saw his work.

Diana (00:24:04):

Really, I cannot remain silent.

Diana (00:24:06):

I cannot leave that exhibition and say everything is like it was two hours ago.

Diana (00:24:13):

And I felt that I had no time.

Diana (00:24:16):

Really, I felt it.

Diana (00:24:18):

That if I film this film according to the rules of French cinematography,

Diana (00:24:24):

so it was really,

Diana (00:24:26):

you're right,

Diana (00:24:27):

it was really awful because we will find no one.

Diana (00:24:32):

Already when we went to these villages,

Diana (00:24:34):

maybe,

Diana (00:24:35):

you know,

Diana (00:24:36):

I don't know, maybe five,

Diana (00:24:37):

six or 10 people were dead already.

Diana (00:24:40):

And that's why there are survivors on the screen.

Diana (00:24:44):

That's why I said, no, it's impossible.

Diana (00:24:46):

We had no time.

Diana (00:24:47):

And when my first producer,

Diana (00:24:49):

he said to me,

Diana (00:24:51):

we should develop this project and then we should look for the money during the

Diana (00:24:57):

festivals. And then this one and this one, I said, no, no.

Diana (00:25:01):

We had no time for that.

Diana (00:25:03):

And that's why he gave me that 5,000 euros.

Diana (00:25:07):

And he said to me, if you want,

Diana (00:25:08):

you can add a couple of thousand of euros and you can film your film.

Diana (00:25:12):

And it's really remained my film because then we separated it with that producer,

Diana (00:25:17):

with Tarmac Films.

Diana (00:25:20):

And after the shooting, I left for a couple of years now for...

Diana (00:25:26):

for five,

Diana (00:25:27):

six years I was alone with this film,

Diana (00:25:29):

completely alone,

Diana (00:25:31):

because I super did it with my producer,

Diana (00:25:33):

and he really stopped his activity like a producer,

Diana (00:25:39):

and then I was alone.

Diana (00:25:41):

Then it was COVID and so on,

Diana (00:25:43):

and I was working also in art and then like a psychologist,

Diana (00:25:50):

and I was editing my film on my rhythm,

Diana (00:25:54):

you know,

Diana (00:25:55):

At your rhythm, yeah.

Bedros (00:25:57):

And also a mother of three children.

Bedros (00:26:01):

I mean, this is an enormous effort on your part.

Bedros (00:26:03):

Don't sell it short.

Diana (00:26:04):

Yes, I have three kids.

Diana (00:26:06):

You're right.

Diana (00:26:07):

Pedro, you are informed by Russian.

Bedros (00:26:10):

By you is what I'm informed by, Diana.

Bedros (00:26:13):

But I don't forget anything I hear.

Bedros (00:26:17):

So I heard it.

Bedros (00:26:18):

I remember it.

Bedros (00:26:19):

Now, what's interesting is that there's so much dignity in this movie.

Bedros (00:26:24):

And I think we've talked about that before.

Bedros (00:26:26):

It's in my review.

Bedros (00:26:31):

So you're doing this fast,

Bedros (00:26:33):

you're going in,

Bedros (00:26:34):

you're meeting people about to die,

Bedros (00:26:37):

and you're capturing them,

Bedros (00:26:38):

but with so much dignity.

Bedros (00:26:40):

So how difficult was that to set up?

Bedros (00:26:44):

You know, how different was how they, you know, how did you calm them down?

Bedros (00:26:48):

I think you being a psychologist helped the most in this endeavor.

Bedros (00:26:52):

This is something I wouldn't be able to do because I tend to make people more agitated.

Bedros (00:26:56):

You know, in my presence,

Bedros (00:26:57):

people get extremely agitated because,

Bedros (00:27:00):

you know, I don't live in a very slow way.

Bedros (00:27:02):

But you were able to slow these people down so that they made sense and they were not afraid.

Bedros (00:27:08):

That's an amazing thing.

Bedros (00:27:10):

And then your cinematographer,

Bedros (00:27:12):

which I'm in awe of,

Bedros (00:27:13):

captured images of these manifestly poor people.

Bedros (00:27:17):

My wife reminded me one couple wasn't poor.

Bedros (00:27:20):

One couple seemed to have made it, even through Soviet time.

Bedros (00:27:24):

But the rest of them are very poor,

Bedros (00:27:26):

abject poverty and villages with animals running around and so on.

Bedros (00:27:30):

But you presented them with such incredible dignity

Bedros (00:27:37):

That seems to be an enormous talent of yours.

Bedros (00:27:41):

Can you elaborate on that, please, as much as you can?

Diana (00:27:46):

Yeah, thank you Bedros, for this question.

Diana (00:27:48):

You know, I think really that the dignity is not related with poverty.

Diana (00:27:53):

There is no links for me, you know.

Bedros (00:27:57):

Yeah, but your camera doesn't take a picture of how poor they are.

Bedros (00:28:00):

Your camera takes a picture of how interesting they are.

Bedros (00:28:03):

And in their own vocabulary,

Bedros (00:28:05):

in their own mannerisms,

Bedros (00:28:07):

not,

Bedros (00:28:08):

you know,

Bedros (00:28:09):

adhering to some Western standard or Soviet standard or whatever it is.

Bedros (00:28:13):

These people were just Armenian.

Bedros (00:28:15):

So how did you throw away all those levels of moment and and all this other Russian

Bedros (00:28:22):

influences and show them as Armenian villagers from Ardahan and Gars and

Bedros (00:28:29):

That's the filtering that's impressive.

Bedros (00:28:31):

You go to Yerevan, every second word is Russian.

Bedros (00:28:34):

But with these people, none of the words were Russian.

Bedros (00:28:37):

So that's not natural.

Bedros (00:28:39):

You did something.

Bedros (00:28:40):

So tell us about that.

Diana (00:28:43):

Yes, it's very interesting what you said, because it makes me think.

Diana (00:28:48):

I'm really thinking.

Diana (00:28:49):

And I have no prepared answers.

Diana (00:28:54):

I think that I just fixed it.

Diana (00:28:58):

I just fixed what I met.

Diana (00:29:02):

So, you know,

Diana (00:29:03):

Tarkovsky,

Diana (00:29:04):

he said, we will see a couple of dozens of years ago when the eyes can be able to film

Diana (00:29:20):

When we will be able to put the camera in the eyes,

Diana (00:29:23):

Tarkovsky said,

Diana (00:29:25):

we will see who is the best director,

Diana (00:29:26):

you know,

Diana (00:29:27):

to avoid the technical moments,

Diana (00:29:29):

if you want.

Diana (00:29:30):

That's why I just fixed what I meant.

Bedros (00:29:34):

I think Mehta Ray-Ban is following Tarkovsky's orders.

Bedros (00:29:38):

And right now, Mehta Ray-Ban glasses...

Bedros (00:29:42):

are exactly for that, even though it makes everybody into a shpion.

Bedros (00:29:46):

But other than that, and it's illegal.

Bedros (00:29:49):

But I love the statement.

Bedros (00:29:51):

And also, I'm going to get to your influences.

Bedros (00:29:54):

So keep Tarkovsky in mind, because we're going to come back to that.

Bedros (00:29:58):

So again, how did you get your cinematographer to do such a great job?

Bedros (00:30:03):

Because you and I have talked, and you've told me you're not a camera person.

Bedros (00:30:07):

So I'm very impressed by the cinematographer who understood you,

Bedros (00:30:11):

despite the fact that you cannot speak his language.

Diana (00:30:16):

I don't need to speak his language.

Bedros (00:30:18):

I agree, but how did you do it?

Bedros (00:30:20):

So how did you speak the language?

Diana (00:30:21):

You know,

Diana (00:30:22):

Sarkis Harazian is a cameraman that I knew already because we failed to do Gata,

Diana (00:30:30):

my first film.

Diana (00:30:32):

together but I really couldn't pay in that in that epoch and we couldn't work with

Diana (00:30:40):

Sarkis because he was already busy with another project and so Sarkis I know him

Diana (00:30:48):

because he's architecture by his profession he and then just to be able in Armenia

Diana (00:30:54):

to

Diana (00:30:58):

to survive economically.

Diana (00:31:00):

So he began to shoot.

Diana (00:31:02):

He began to be a cameraman.

Diana (00:31:04):

So it's 20 years ago.

Diana (00:31:07):

But he's an architect.

Diana (00:31:09):

That's why I just, you know, when I'm composing my team for shooting, in that time,

Diana (00:31:19):

time, I really make a job.

Diana (00:31:24):

But if I trust, if I believe, if I trust, yes, so then I stop to ask the questions to myself.

Diana (00:31:32):

I really put maybe 30 years to just learn to stop to control.

Diana (00:31:42):

Yes, yes, yes.

Bedros (00:31:43):

I agree.

Bedros (00:31:44):

Look, you're making perfect sense.

Bedros (00:31:46):

A good director in America,

Bedros (00:31:49):

we say, 50% of a director's job is to pick the right actors and then let them do what they

Bedros (00:31:55):

want. Of course, the same thing translates to the technical staff.

Bedros (00:31:58):

So what's amazing,

Bedros (00:32:00):

though,

Bedros (00:32:01):

I think it's worth stopping and reflecting,

Bedros (00:32:03):

is that there was a first framing by Erhan.

Bedros (00:32:08):

So Erhan made the first

Bedros (00:32:10):

structural plans or architectural plans for the way these people look in their homes.

Bedros (00:32:17):

Then came your photographer and he made his plans on top of that, which

Bedros (00:32:25):

If I know this guy,

Bedros (00:32:27):

I don't know the guy, but if I'm as talented as he is,

Bedros (00:32:30):

I don't care what Erhan did.

Bedros (00:32:31):

I'm going to do my thing.

Bedros (00:32:33):

So he did his thing with the lighting he had,

Bedros (00:32:35):

with the further aging of these people getting closer and closer to death,

Bedros (00:32:42):

to falling off the flat earth that is the right of an Armenian to do,

Bedros (00:32:46):

is to end their life.

Bedros (00:32:49):

And then you took the poetic language of Erhan and re...

Bedros (00:32:54):

structured it through the actual communication with the victims of the genocide

Bedros (00:33:02):

into yet a more poetic language,

Bedros (00:33:04):

a live language.

Bedros (00:33:07):

which captured their living self,

Bedros (00:33:11):

even though they knew they're dying,

Bedros (00:33:12):

you knew they're dying,

Bedros (00:33:14):

and you only had a few dollars and a few days with all those military people

Bedros (00:33:19):

running around saying,

Bedros (00:33:20):

what are you doing?

Bedros (00:33:21):

What are you doing? What is this?

Bedros (00:33:22):

What is that?

Bedros (00:33:23):

And so in that circumstance, that's what I mean by dignity.

Bedros (00:33:27):

The amount of, I mean, this, what I just said can be the setting for comedy.

Bedros (00:33:33):

Right?

Bedros (00:33:34):

The KGB guy could have walked in,

Bedros (00:33:35):

and the Turkish guy could have walked in,

Bedros (00:33:37):

and the drones could have flown by.

Bedros (00:33:39):

Anything could have happened.

Bedros (00:33:40):

But none of that happens.

Bedros (00:33:42):

And they all talk about how much Kars or Ardahan or Van mean to them.

Bedros (00:33:51):

A hundred years later,

Bedros (00:33:54):

the towns in which they saw their parents being slaughtered,

Bedros (00:33:58):

where they watched their parents being killed,

Bedros (00:34:02):

and that

Bedros (00:34:03):

Time makes you want to love the thing that matters.

Bedros (00:34:10):

And that was their roots.

Bedros (00:34:11):

By loving Ardahan or Van or Kars,

Bedros (00:34:14):

they're loving their parents because they couldn't love their parents.

Bedros (00:34:17):

Their parents died, but Ardahan still exists.

Bedros (00:34:21):

And what happens is that Ardahan sends one of its own sons,

Bedros (00:34:25):

a man who's questioning his identity.

Bedros (00:34:28):

to come over and say, hey, you know, we're still there and you're not there.

Bedros (00:34:32):

And I keep asking my father, what happened to you?

Bedros (00:34:34):

And he says, oh, I don't know what happened to them.

Bedros (00:34:36):

Like this Turkish line, I don't know.

Bedros (00:34:38):

What happened to the Armenians?

Bedros (00:34:40):

Who can say, you know?

Bedros (00:34:42):

And then you ask them and they say, we built them a church.

Bedros (00:34:46):

They left, you know?

Bedros (00:34:48):

And so all the lies that are still lurking

Bedros (00:34:51):

while these hundred and something year olds are the real thing.

Bedros (00:34:56):

And all of that is fake.

Bedros (00:34:58):

Everything Turkish is fake because it has to cover this.

Bedros (00:35:01):

It has to lie about this.

Bedros (00:35:03):

While in your movie, there's only reality.

Bedros (00:35:06):

The Turkish reality,

Bedros (00:35:07):

which is totally fake,

Bedros (00:35:09):

and the Armenian reality,

Bedros (00:35:10):

which the Soviets were not able to destroy,

Bedros (00:35:13):

which they tried.

Bedros (00:35:15):

Nobody could destroy because they missed their parents

Bedros (00:35:20):

which represents Van and Mush and Ardahan and kars to them,

Bedros (00:35:25):

which happens to be right across the river from where they're living for 100 years.

Bedros (00:35:32):

I mean, you don't understand what forces took you there?

Bedros (00:35:36):

These are the forces that took you there.

Bedros (00:35:38):

You knew this is true.

Bedros (00:35:40):

You too had left your home.

Bedros (00:35:42):

Your parents had also disappeared on you as a pair of parents.

Bedros (00:35:47):

And so by making this movie, you are going back to your roots.

Diana (00:35:53):

Yes, yes, yes, yes, of course, of course.

Diana (00:35:56):

Because, you know, even these teams, crew, huh?

Diana (00:36:00):

Yeah, cinema crew, yeah.

Diana (00:36:05):

The cinema crew, you know, we were just five, five person.

Diana (00:36:11):

So Erhan, Sarkis, Harut is a sound engineer, then me and Sibel and our translator.

Diana (00:36:24):

So we were, yes, that person.

Diana (00:36:29):

there was something more than us,

Diana (00:36:32):

you know, something more,

Diana (00:36:33):

something that, ce que nous dépassait en fait,

Diana (00:36:36):

comment dire ?

Bedros (00:36:38):

It was beyond you, beyond your seven-person team.

Diana (00:36:43):

Yes, something that was behind us.

Diana (00:36:46):

And when we entered in the space, so you can see it's in Gata also.

Diana (00:36:52):

In my first film, Gata, we have this one also.

Diana (00:36:55):

Because my principle is to make the camera disappear.

Diana (00:37:02):

with the crew,

Diana (00:37:03):

you know,

Diana (00:37:04):

just to enter in the very intimate space,

Diana (00:37:08):

which we cannot share with someone.

Diana (00:37:11):

And that's why when you come,

Diana (00:37:13):

even we were five,

Diana (00:37:14):

we were six,

Diana (00:37:16):

but we managed,

Diana (00:37:17):

I think,

Diana (00:37:18):

that we managed to disappear in this space.

Diana (00:37:20):

And

Diana (00:37:23):

And these people, they just opened the door, you know.

Diana (00:37:26):

We didn't ask them to open the windows, to open everything and to make something special for us.

Diana (00:37:32):

We just said to them, can you accept just to share with us your story, just your story?

Diana (00:37:41):

And that's why,

Diana (00:37:42):

you know,

Diana (00:37:43):

it was very authentic,

Diana (00:37:46):

something very,

Diana (00:37:47):

very authentic that I think we managed to film.

Diana (00:37:50):

And even when you film,

Diana (00:37:52):

The moment when you push on record, you feel that you fix or you don't fix.

Diana (00:37:58):

Even if record is pushing, is pushed at the bottom, but you know that there is nothing.

Diana (00:38:05):

You know that it's empty.

Diana (00:38:07):

Like a director, you know that it's empty because you don't feel something else.

Diana (00:38:13):

which is behind you and when you are fixing the image,

Diana (00:38:17):

you know,

Diana (00:38:18):

but when you have something that's behind you,

Diana (00:38:21):

you feel it and you know that it will be okay.

Diana (00:38:24):

Even if there are some technical problems on the image and all the sound,

Diana (00:38:29):

you fix something very real and you feel it.

Diana (00:38:32):

That's why we didn't make, you know, one, two, three, four, four times.

Diana (00:38:38):

There's no one who really plays in this film.

Diana (00:38:41):

They just live their life and then they share one hour, two hours with us.

Diana (00:38:47):

That's all.

Bedros (00:38:48):

Not everybody can put people at ease.

Bedros (00:38:51):

Diana, if you were not a psychologist, I don't think this would have worked.

Diana (00:38:56):

I was not a psychologist in 2016.

Diana (00:38:59):

Yes, you were.

Bedros (00:39:01):

You just didn't have a degree yet.

Diana (00:39:02):

Yes, I had no brains diploma, of course.

Bedros (00:39:06):

I was a physicist when I was 13.

Bedros (00:39:07):

So I can't escape it.

Bedros (00:39:10):

So you can't escape it either.

Bedros (00:39:12):

And what's amazing is...

Bedros (00:39:16):

I mean, again, the repetition is just enormous in this thing, right?

Bedros (00:39:20):

This is a Ferris wheel of truth, right?

Bedros (00:39:22):

It doesn't go away.

Bedros (00:39:23):

This is very, very bad for Turks.

Bedros (00:39:25):

Like nothing goes away.

Bedros (00:39:27):

In mathematics, this is called Poincaré recurrence, that things will always repeat themselves.

Bedros (00:39:34):

So maybe why the French are smart enough to say plus ça change, plus ça reste le même, is that

Bedros (00:39:41):

Erhan had already been there.

Bedros (00:39:43):

He had to calm them down.

Bedros (00:39:45):

He had to frame them.

Bedros (00:39:46):

He had to photograph them.

Bedros (00:39:48):

He had to tell them about Ardahan.

Bedros (00:39:51):

And then you should have done it earlier, but didn't know about it.

Bedros (00:39:56):

Eight years later, or six years later, come back.

Bedros (00:40:02):

So they meet Erhan again.

Diana (00:40:05):

He can put them- Five years later,

Diana (00:40:08):

we came back with- Five years later,

Bedros (00:40:10):

you can put them at ease in a different way.

Bedros (00:40:12):

Now they can speak, which they couldn't do before.

Bedros (00:40:17):

And of course, there's a ruse in your movie that we should bring up.

Bedros (00:40:20):

The ruse is you're pretending that you're introducing him to Erhan,

Bedros (00:40:23):

which of course is not true at all.

Bedros (00:40:25):

They know Erhan.

Bedros (00:40:26):

So the whole,

Bedros (00:40:28):

which is what is the secret in your movie,

Bedros (00:40:30):

which we haven't talked about before,

Bedros (00:40:33):

which is you said I wrote the screenplay.

Bedros (00:40:36):

If you listen to you, you go, what screenplay?

Bedros (00:40:38):

You keep saying everything is natural, but it isn't, of course.

Bedros (00:40:42):

The screenplay is how you're going to bring Erhan back to a place

Bedros (00:40:47):

and introduce them to those people now on camera.

Bedros (00:40:50):

And they're gonna have the same kind of dynamic interaction,

Bedros (00:40:53):

which you wrote,

Bedros (00:40:55):

not Erhan,

Bedros (00:40:56):

which is you wondering whether meeting a Turk is going to trigger them.

Bedros (00:41:01):

You wondering whether he's gonna be able to bring up that he's from Ardahan and so on.

Bedros (00:41:06):

That's all fake and it's all you,

Bedros (00:41:09):

but it gives the magic in the movie that makes those people focus on that,

Bedros (00:41:16):

As opposed to focusing on pity me, pity me, look what shit I went through in my life.

Bedros (00:41:21):

That's the genius of how you turn it into a story which keeps the camera on their

Bedros (00:41:27):

positive aspects and not on the poverty and not...

Bedros (00:41:32):

on the trauma of the genocide, but how people went through it.

Bedros (00:41:36):

And the fact that a Turk is in the room already says they've gone through it.

Bedros (00:41:40):

They're sitting down with a Turk and discussing it,

Bedros (00:41:43):

something Armenia is still waiting to do the right way,

Bedros (00:41:47):

the nun on their knees eating the grovel in front of them way,

Bedros (00:41:52):

but the dignified way where the Turk listens to the Armenian and acknowledges what

Bedros (00:41:57):

the Armenian has to say,

Bedros (00:41:58):

and you film it.

Bedros (00:42:00):

That dignity is all you.

Bedros (00:42:03):

That's not in Orhan's Horovel, and it's not in those poor villagers.

Bedros (00:42:11):

It's what you wanted.

Bedros (00:42:12):

It's your wish that this be reality in the future that's in your movie.

Diana (00:42:19):

Yes. Well, I couldn't do this one without Erhan and these people.

Diana (00:42:23):

I understand what you said, but I think that we are never really alone.

Diana (00:42:28):

And if we manage to do something, it's because someone did something before us, you know.

Diana (00:42:35):

I really think like that, Pedro.

Diana (00:42:38):

That's why I was there in that moment and...

Diana (00:42:46):

I remember that feeling that I had when I heard this text,

Diana (00:42:53):

a poetical text,

Diana (00:42:54):

and it was before me,

Diana (00:42:58):

if you want.

Diana (00:43:00):

I really followed my intuition and I really felt something not comfortable inside of me.

Diana (00:43:08):

It was something that- Unresolved.

Diana (00:43:13):

Unresolved, yes, non-digested and something that really questioned me.

Diana (00:43:18):

And really, it's like you swallow something that began to eat you from your...

Bedros (00:43:35):

From within.

Diana (00:43:36):

Within you, yes.

Diana (00:43:37):

Within you.

Diana (00:43:38):

So, really, I don't make the films because I'm going well, if you want.

Bedros (00:43:45):

Yes, yes, yes.

Bedros (00:43:46):

Art is not...

Bedros (00:43:48):

I used to sculpt when I was a boy.

Bedros (00:43:50):

And they always had, you know, faces which had, you know, strong emotions on them.

Bedros (00:43:55):

And my mom would say, who is it?

Bedros (00:43:58):

I'd say Churchill, mom.

Bedros (00:44:00):

And then it was not Churchill.

Bedros (00:44:03):

And then she would say, why don't they smile?

Bedros (00:44:05):

Because I said, people who smile, they look stupid when they smile.

Bedros (00:44:10):

You know what I mean?

Bedros (00:44:11):

Nobody intelligent smiles all the time.

Bedros (00:44:14):

And so you're...

Bedros (00:44:18):

When we know how much those people have suffered and they smile, they can still smile.

Bedros (00:44:26):

It just shows the enormity of the human spirit.

Bedros (00:44:31):

being captured by mistake, by a set of mistakes.

Bedros (00:44:34):

You have to go to North Sea,

Bedros (00:44:35):

and you have to find just enough money to have a few days to film,

Bedros (00:44:39):

and all the spy agencies have to let you lurk around villages at the border with

Bedros (00:44:45):

cameras going around.

Bedros (00:44:46):

They go, hey, wait a minute.

Bedros (00:44:48):

And yet what's preserved is the coffee,

Bedros (00:44:51):

the demi tasse,

Bedros (00:44:53):

the cup of coffee they serve you,

Bedros (00:44:56):

the sweet things that are on the table.

Bedros (00:44:59):

And it's just enormous.

Bedros (00:45:02):

And at the end of the movie,

Bedros (00:45:03):

you write down,

Bedros (00:45:05):

this person died at this date and this person died at that date because you waited

Bedros (00:45:09):

nine years. You needed the nine-year gestation experiment.

Bedros (00:45:12):

So you did that.

Bedros (00:45:14):

And they were all gone.

Bedros (00:45:15):

And all that was left was this film.

Bedros (00:45:19):

You know, it's just incredible, which is why I want people to see this movie.

Bedros (00:45:23):

We have to find a way to get it so that they can stream it and make it part of

Bedros (00:45:28):

every educational establishment that's Armenian should show this movie for their

Bedros (00:45:33):

kids so that they know that even in Soviet Armenia,

Bedros (00:45:38):

people grew up with this memory.

Bedros (00:45:41):

The narrative of the current government is

Asbed (00:45:44):

Diana,

Bedros (00:45:45):

as you know, is that this is given to them by MI5 and Deuxieme Bureau and these scumbags,

Bedros (00:45:52):

is that this is a diasporan Armenian narrative,

Bedros (00:45:55):

the genocide.

Bedros (00:45:56):

There was no genocide.

Bedros (00:45:58):

And only people like Asbed or me who grew up in Beirut talk about it.

Bedros (00:46:02):

Well, you went and made bullshit out of this argument by showing only Hayastantsi

Bedros (00:46:08):

Armenians who are talking about it,

Bedros (00:46:11):

who are just across the village.

Bedros (00:46:13):

And the Turk is questioning them, not you.

Bedros (00:46:16):

I mean, this is just, you're a political scientist.

Bedros (00:46:19):

You just don't know it.

Bedros (00:46:21):

Because you won the political science argument that no CIA,

Bedros (00:46:25):

MI5,

Bedros (00:46:26):

Deuxième Bureau,

Bedros (00:46:28):

Mossad agent can erase,

Bedros (00:46:30):

which they're trying to erase,

Bedros (00:46:32):

which is that this is bullshit,

Bedros (00:46:33):

there's no genocide,

Bedros (00:46:34):

Turks are the loveliest people on earth,

Bedros (00:46:37):

and Armenians in the diaspora are stupid.

Bedros (00:46:40):

Except you showed that Armenians in Armenia live this, right?

Bedros (00:46:44):

Yes.

Diana (00:46:45):

Yes.

Diana (00:46:46):

Yes, exactly.

Diana (00:46:47):

And it's a story that they tell to each generation.

Diana (00:46:54):

You know, the grandfather told to his son, the son told to his son.

Bedros (00:47:03):

I want you to jump.

Bedros (00:47:04):

We're going to jump.

Bedros (00:47:05):

I have questions, but I want to jump.

Bedros (00:47:08):

Please jump right now to the Golden Apricot movie festival and tell the story of

Bedros (00:47:15):

how those grandchildren and great-grandchildren who don't go to Yerevan all went to

Bedros (00:47:20):

Yerevan to see your movie.

Bedros (00:47:22):

Please tell that story.

Diana (00:47:25):

So the movie was selected for the Golden Apricot Film Festival,

Diana (00:47:30):

International Film Festival this year,

Diana (00:47:32):

2025.

Diana (00:47:33):

And I went there to present the film.

Diana (00:47:38):

And I called all the families because I kept the numbers.

Diana (00:47:45):

I shot this film in 2016.

Diana (00:47:48):

And so in festival, Ojak was screened in

Diana (00:47:53):

2025, and I kept all the numbers.

Diana (00:47:56):

And, you know, it's also a mystery because no one changed his number in nine years.

Diana (00:48:02):

So it's really something very, how say, there is a stability.

Bedros (00:48:08):

Providential.

Bedros (00:48:09):

It was providential.

Diana (00:48:11):

Yes.

Diana (00:48:13):

So I called all the families that I had in my,

Diana (00:48:17):

all the families that was in this film,

Diana (00:48:19):

you know,

Diana (00:48:20):

and one or two families that we were,

Diana (00:48:22):

we shot it,

Diana (00:48:23):

but they didn't make part,

Diana (00:48:26):

made part of this film.

Diana (00:48:28):

I called them and I said, it's Diana Mkrtchyan.

Diana (00:48:31):

Do you remember him?

Diana (00:48:32):

We make a film.

Diana (00:48:33):

And he said, yes, of course.

Diana (00:48:35):

So your film, where is your film?

Diana (00:48:37):

And I said, so it took a time, but now he will be screened in a couple of days in Yerevan.

Diana (00:48:43):

And I gave the address.

Diana (00:48:45):

And you know, from one village, Tatul, Tatul,

Diana (00:48:50):

All the relatives of Guina,

Diana (00:48:52):

that woman of 103 years,

Diana (00:48:59):

if I don't mistake,

Diana (00:49:02):

she was 103 years when we started her.

Diana (00:49:05):

And so her relatives, they came from Tatul.

Diana (00:49:11):

So they made, they came to Yerevan and then they went back.

Diana (00:49:15):

I don't know, they were maybe 30.

Diana (00:49:19):

it was really all the hall, cinema hall, was... rempli, comment c'ést...

Bedros (00:49:28):

Filled, filled.

Bedros (00:49:29):

No, no, no, you're telling half the story.

Bedros (00:49:31):

Diana, let me remind you.

Bedros (00:49:33):

The first question is,

Bedros (00:49:34):

how well did the goddamn political system of that rotten country treat your movie?

Bedros (00:49:42):

How much advertising did they do?

Bedros (00:49:44):

None.

Bedros (00:49:45):

Nothing was written under the title.

Bedros (00:49:47):

They were going to show the movie and no one was going to show up.

Bedros (00:49:52):

Reinforcing the fact that this is Western propaganda.

Bedros (00:49:55):

Instead,

Bedros (00:49:58):

hundreds of people came from these villages proving that this is all true by your

Bedros (00:50:04):

doing.

Bedros (00:50:05):

Tell that story, please.

Diana (00:50:06):

Ah, yes, okay, I didn't understand.

Diana (00:50:08):

Okay, yes, because it was very strange for me.

Diana (00:50:12):

I went to present Ojakh and Ojakh didn't appear on the seat of the festival.

Diana (00:50:21):

No information was about Ojakh, no information.

Diana (00:50:24):

And it was a phantom film, you know, on this festival this year was two phantom films.

Diana (00:50:31):

One about Armenian Genocide, Ojakh, and the second one was about Artsakh, made by Artsakhi Hod.

Diana (00:50:38):

So two documentary films, phantoms, no information, no way.

Diana (00:50:43):

And my film should be screened one of the first days of the festival.

Diana (00:50:49):

I think it was Monday.

Diana (00:50:51):

The first day, it was 14th of July, the day of the...

Diana (00:50:56):

in France and that's why a French ambassador he didn't came because it was also so

Diana (00:51:04):

he had something in ambassador so no one and no information about this film I asked

Diana (00:51:09):

the organization organizers of the festival why there is no information because if

Diana (00:51:15):

people want to come want come to see these films they have nothing to read just a

Bedros (00:51:20):

poster if you go to the website there's just a poster

Bedros (00:51:24):

Nothing else. While every other movie,

Bedros (00:51:26):

there's this and that about the author,

Bedros (00:51:28):

about the writer,

Bedros (00:51:29):

about all this stuff.

Bedros (00:51:31):

Here, nothing.

Bedros (00:51:32):

Right.

Diana (00:51:32):

Even no poster, nothing.

Diana (00:51:34):

It was really film phantom.

Diana (00:51:36):

And I was with my daughter.

Diana (00:51:37):

So I said, her name is Anoush.

Diana (00:51:40):

And I said, Anoush, I don't want to be nervous because today is our screening.

Diana (00:51:45):

And she looked every time.

Diana (00:51:47):

He said, there is nothing about your film.

Diana (00:51:49):

And I said, twice, Lee.

Diana (00:51:51):

three times, but it's not possible because people want to come.

Diana (00:51:55):

And then I also posted on Facebook, on my page, to say that it will be screening of Ocak.

Diana (00:52:02):

And I was contacted by journalists from Finland.

Diana (00:52:09):

who read about my film on French seats, on French media.

Diana (00:52:16):

And then I was contacted by a French journalist.

Diana (00:52:20):

And so the people that didn't read about this,

Diana (00:52:26):

didn't read about this film on the seat of the festival,

Diana (00:52:29):

but otherwise saw nothing.

Diana (00:52:32):

And then

Diana (00:52:34):

I called to all the families.

Diana (00:52:37):

And I think that if I didn't call to all these families and if I didn't post the

Diana (00:52:44):

information about the film on my Facebook page,

Diana (00:52:47):

so maybe in that hall,

Diana (00:52:49):

I will be alone because no one knows about it,

Diana (00:52:52):

really.

Bedros (00:52:54):

Let's stop for a second.

Bedros (00:52:55):

So let's look at this from an Armenian point of view.

Bedros (00:52:58):

All these people let you into their homes.

Bedros (00:53:01):

They let your crew into their homes.

Bedros (00:53:08):

You invaded their space.

Bedros (00:53:11):

They fed you.

Bedros (00:53:12):

They talked to you.

Bedros (00:53:13):

They opened their wounds to you.

Bedros (00:53:14):

They cried.

Bedros (00:53:15):

They all cry on camera quietly when they remember

Bedros (00:53:21):

you know, that when they realize what I have verbalized,

Bedros (00:53:25):

which is that their love of van or gas is a love of their family,

Bedros (00:53:30):

which is gone.

Bedros (00:53:32):

And they've transferred it when they talk about

Bedros (00:53:36):

Ardahan, they're not talking about Ardahan.

Bedros (00:53:37):

They don't know Ardahan.

Bedros (00:53:38):

They were children.

Bedros (00:53:40):

They know their family.

Bedros (00:53:42):

And they know that through Ardahan, they might find that family.

Bedros (00:53:44):

Of course,

Bedros (00:53:45):

your camera goes to Ardahan and then talks to Ardahan Turks who say things like,

Bedros (00:53:49):

we built them a church.

Bedros (00:53:50):

They went away.

Bedros (00:53:52):

Right.

Bedros (00:53:53):

Very likely story.

Bedros (00:53:55):

Now, you're an Armenian.

Bedros (00:53:58):

You're not a bad Armenian.

Bedros (00:54:01):

You're a good Armenian.

Bedros (00:54:02):

As a good Armenian, or you're trying to be a good Armenian.

Bedros (00:54:05):

I know that about you.

Bedros (00:54:06):

You cannot be left behind.

Bedros (00:54:09):

They, we call the word medzarel in Armenian.

Bedros (00:54:13):

They hosted you.

Bedros (00:54:15):

You have to host them back.

Bedros (00:54:16):

So now your movie is being shown in Yerevan.

Bedros (00:54:19):

These poor people have had to wait nine years.

Bedros (00:54:21):

They've had to bury their grandparents and still not hear from you.

Bedros (00:54:25):

Like as if you live in Côte d'Azur or something.

Bedros (00:54:28):

You're too busy getting suntan.

Bedros (00:54:29):

You don't have time to finish the movie.

Bedros (00:54:31):

Nine years later, you show up.

Bedros (00:54:34):

You want to host them.

Bedros (00:54:36):

You want to be the person saying, did I do right by your grandparents?

Bedros (00:54:40):

Did I do right by their stories?

Bedros (00:54:42):

Come and tell me.

Bedros (00:54:44):

So they rushed to the theater.

Bedros (00:54:46):

Meanwhile, Armenian official propaganda says there's no Artsakh and there's no genocide.

Bedros (00:54:52):

Right?

Bedros (00:54:53):

And soon there won't be any church.

Bedros (00:54:54):

No problem.

Bedros (00:54:55):

An Armenian is a person who never heard of genocide,

Bedros (00:54:58):

doesn't like living in the Artsakh and doesn't want to go to church.

Bedros (00:55:03):

This is the new Armenian, the Turkish Armenian, if you will.

Bedros (00:55:06):

The new Turkish Armenian.

Bedros (00:55:08):

While you show a movie in which a Turk says everything you guys say is true and

Bedros (00:55:14):

what a shame it is that this is the way things are.

Bedros (00:55:17):

And who shows up to the movie

Bedros (00:55:20):

They wanted to make sure nobody shows up to the movie,

Bedros (00:55:23):

and the entire villages across the frontier,

Bedros (00:55:27):

hundreds of people filled the theater,

Bedros (00:55:28):

yes?

Diana (00:55:30):

Yes, they came.

Diana (00:55:32):

It was a Malyan's hall,

Diana (00:55:33):

so it's not very big,

Diana (00:55:35):

but very prestigious,

Diana (00:55:37):

you know,

Diana (00:55:38):

because you have really ache on your back when you're on these chairs.

Diana (00:55:44):

It's a very old hall.

Diana (00:55:46):

Malyan's house of cinema.

Diana (00:55:48):

Yes, they came.

Diana (00:55:49):

So I called them and I said, I invite you to see this film.

Diana (00:55:53):

And they came, you know, they put three hours, four hours of road.

Diana (00:55:58):

They came and the hall was full.

Diana (00:56:01):

And when we presented the film,

Diana (00:56:03):

so Susana also presented the film,

Diana (00:56:07):

one of the organizers of this festival.

Diana (00:56:11):

And yes, organizers.

Diana (00:56:13):

And I said,

Diana (00:56:14):

so I said one more time,

Diana (00:56:16):

Susana,

Diana (00:56:17):

that's pity because there's no information about this film.

Diana (00:56:22):

It's really pity.

Diana (00:56:23):

And she said, yes, but the hall was full.

Diana (00:56:26):

And I said, yes.

Bedros (00:56:28):

Now she's taking credit for it.

Diana (00:56:30):

Yes.

Diana (00:56:31):

And I said, yes, because I made my film for these people.

Diana (00:56:37):

And so,

Diana (00:56:38):

you know, I was really proud of these people who came because I really made this film for

Diana (00:56:43):

them. I didn't make this film for festivals, for prizes, for money and so on.

Diana (00:56:48):

I made this film for these people.

Diana (00:56:51):

Just to say that really when Gachik is living on Bagaran,

Diana (00:56:57):

Every day he sees the village of his parents.

Diana (00:57:00):

And as one is living in Margara, he's looking from the window, the village of his parents.

Diana (00:57:08):

I made this film for them.

Diana (00:57:09):

I didn't make this film for red carpet, for Cannes, for nothing.

Diana (00:57:14):

And that's why she said to me, the hall was full.

Diana (00:57:17):

I said, yes, because I made this film for them.

Bedros (00:57:22):

Any chance of showing the movie in Armenia again to actual Hayastantsi audiences who

Bedros (00:57:28):

might remember the genocide still?

Diana (00:57:30):

The movie was shown in December on a woman film festival which called Kin Woman and

Diana (00:57:41):

it was shown not in a competition program because it's a short film festival but

Diana (00:57:48):

And Mariam Ohanesyan,

Diana (00:57:50):

the organizer of this festival,

Diana (00:57:54):

she asked me,

Diana (00:57:55):

she invited me to be the member of Jory,

Diana (00:57:58):

but I really couldn't go.

Diana (00:58:01):

And she asked me if they can show this film.

Diana (00:58:05):

I said, of course.

Diana (00:58:07):

And it was projected one more time in December now, a couple of weeks ago.

Diana (00:58:13):

But this time I was shocked in Armenia.

Diana (00:58:17):

I was shocked because I didn't go to Armenia after the war.

Diana (00:58:23):

And I was really shocked because in Yerevan,

Diana (00:58:26):

the first day we came,

Diana (00:58:28):

it was, I don't know,

Diana (00:58:30):

a couple of hundreds of policemen in the streets.

Diana (00:58:35):

And I said, what happened?

Diana (00:58:37):

I didn't understand.

Diana (00:58:38):

But I was with my daughter.

Diana (00:58:39):

I thought that something happened, something bad, you know.

Diana (00:58:43):

And I said, Anoush, we are not going to stay here.

Diana (00:58:47):

I don't know what's happened.

Diana (00:58:48):

It's too much police.

Diana (00:58:50):

And,

Diana (00:58:51):

you know, the next day I just learned that it was a manifestation of artsakhiat,

Diana (00:58:57):

of refugees.

Diana (00:58:59):

And I said, this is Armenia of today.

Diana (00:59:02):

There may be, I don't know, five times more policemen that are manifestators, you know.

Diana (00:59:09):

And I was shocked by that.

Diana (00:59:12):

And also I was shocked when

Diana (00:59:14):

I learned that the museum of carpets Armenian carpets of Artsakh didn't find the

Diana (00:59:21):

place to exhibit the carpets in Armenia in Yerevan and the director of this museum

Diana (00:59:29):

here

Diana (00:59:30):

He should,

Diana (00:59:31):

I don't know, keep these carpets,

Diana (00:59:33):

Armenian carpets from 16th century,

Diana (00:59:37):

17th century,

Diana (00:59:38):

the survivors.

Diana (00:59:39):

He should keep them in some, you know, in some rooms not adapted for that carpets.

Diana (00:59:45):

And in France,

Diana (00:59:46):

I organized the exhibition and I printed,

Diana (00:59:50):

you know, just printed the photos of these carpets.

Diana (00:59:53):

Because I adore the applied art, carpets, manuscripts, and so on, Armenian.

Diana (01:00:04):

And so I printed these photos and I organized here in the church,

Diana (01:00:08):

in the center of this city,

Diana (01:00:11):

Kong, the exhibition of Armenian carpets and carpets from Artsakh.

Diana (01:00:17):

And I told all the day from 10 o'clock until the evening,

Diana (01:00:21):

I told to French the history of Armenian carpets,

Diana (01:00:26):

this, you know, the scripted message of Armenian carpets.

Diana (01:00:29):

And I told the story of Museum of Artsakh of Shushi.

Diana (01:00:33):

And of the director.

Diana (01:00:36):

Then I filmed that one and I sent to the director of this museum just to show him

Diana (01:00:41):

that I just printed.

Diana (01:00:42):

You know, it was, I would say, I ought to do it.

Bedros (01:00:47):

You felt compelled to do it.

Bedros (01:00:50):

Diana, what you're describing,

Bedros (01:00:52):

this is the same problem the stupid communists had,

Bedros (01:00:57):

the Soviets had.

Bedros (01:00:59):

they had to dislike Russian literature from the 19th century because they didn't

Bedros (01:01:06):

want to have any relationship to Tsarist Russia.

Bedros (01:01:10):

And so they had to start disliking all the authors from their whole rich literature

Bedros (01:01:16):

to cover up the fact that there's nothing before Soviet time,

Bedros (01:01:20):

that the Soviets re-educated everyone,

Bedros (01:01:22):

blah, blah,

Bedros (01:01:23):

blah. So this same disease is being, you're telling us, repeated

Bedros (01:01:30):

in Armenia,

Bedros (01:01:31):

where in order to deny the existence of Artsakh,

Bedros (01:01:35):

they cannot acknowledge the existence of 1,000-year-old artifacts from Artsakh that

Bedros (01:01:43):

pretty soon General Baghramyan,

Bedros (01:01:47):

who won the war in the Second World War,

Bedros (01:01:50):

will have to be forgotten because he comes from Artsakh.

Bedros (01:01:53):

So this absurdity, this Soviet-style absurdity

Bedros (01:01:58):

In a people who think they're now Western and not Soviet and whatever,

Bedros (01:02:03):

they're repeating Soviet technology of denying the truth.

Bedros (01:02:08):

as if it's in their hands to deny the truth.

Bedros (01:02:12):

Meanwhile, your movie captures the truth.

Bedros (01:02:14):

All movies about Artsakh capture the truth and make it impossible to argue Artsakh

Bedros (01:02:19):

doesn't exist,

Bedros (01:02:21):

or that Armenians were never Christian,

Bedros (01:02:23):

or that Armenians were never rug makers,

Bedros (01:02:25):

and Armenians are just ready to serve Turkey today

Bedros (01:02:29):

or Israel,

Bedros (01:02:30):

or whatever else that needs to be done,

Bedros (01:02:32):

whatever airports needs to be built,

Bedros (01:02:34):

so that Israel can attack Iran.

Bedros (01:02:36):

And if Armenians are there, we get rid of the Armenians, no problem.

Bedros (01:02:41):

And they will make a corridor for them to bring their arms next time.

Bedros (01:02:44):

I mean,

Bedros (01:02:45):

it is so absurd to run away from your own history,

Bedros (01:02:49):

which is exactly what the Soviets had to do.

Bedros (01:02:51):

They had to run away from their histories.

Bedros (01:02:53):

Nations that didn't exist.

Bedros (01:02:55):

Languages didn't exist.

Bedros (01:02:57):

They were now, you know, Homo Sovieticus, right?

Bedros (01:03:01):

Homo Sovieticus.

Bedros (01:03:03):

And what did that lead to?

Bedros (01:03:05):

Absolute annihilation of culture and reality to serve an idea which is rotten from the core.

Bedros (01:03:12):

So why are of the world running this world?

Bedros (01:03:19):

That's the real question.

Bedros (01:03:21):

They should look at the wisdom and beauty of these old men

Bedros (01:03:25):

in their little homes,

Bedros (01:03:27):

dreaming of their childhood,

Bedros (01:03:28):

dreaming of their parents,

Bedros (01:03:30):

the return to their homes as real,

Bedros (01:03:33):

while these people sit in cafes in Yerevan and say,

Bedros (01:03:36):

if Artsakh is just a problem,

Bedros (01:03:38):

we don't want to hear about Artsakh.

Bedros (01:03:40):

The genocide just pushes us back.

Bedros (01:03:43):

There was no genocide.

Bedros (01:03:44):

Christianity, who needs Christianity?

Bedros (01:03:46):

We're modern men.

Bedros (01:03:49):

I mean, the absurdity of this is tragic.

Bedros (01:03:53):

And you were not made a victim because you could rely on those people to drive four

Bedros (01:03:58):

hours to come to Yerevan to fill the theaters so that they couldn't say,

Bedros (01:04:03):

nobody's interested in these stories about genocide.

Bedros (01:04:06):

Don't make movies about genocide.

Bedros (01:04:09):

What are you supposed to make movies about?

Bedros (01:04:10):

Women who go to Arabic countries as prostitutes?

Bedros (01:04:13):

I mean,

Bedros (01:04:14):

what is an Armenian movie that's modern,

Bedros (01:04:17):

if not these people,

Bedros (01:04:18):

if not the tie we have to these people?

Bedros (01:04:22):

Well, anyway,

Bedros (01:04:23):

I would like you to tell us about the other movies you've made in the few minutes

Bedros (01:04:26):

we have left,

Bedros (01:04:27):

your previous movies and future plans.

Bedros (01:04:29):

Mostly, get us to this Karabakh footage that you have.

Bedros (01:04:33):

We know your style of moviemaking now.

Bedros (01:04:35):

You take the pictures, and then 10 years later, you turn it into a movie.

Bedros (01:04:39):

So you're doing that with Karabakh.

Bedros (01:04:42):

So they cannot deny it.

Bedros (01:04:44):

So you did it again.

Bedros (01:04:45):

You saved Karabakh footage.

Bedros (01:04:48):

So I don't know what you're going to do next.

Bedros (01:04:51):

Mars or something? I don't know.

Bedros (01:04:52):

So what financing is needed to make your Karabakh movie?

Diana (01:05:01):

To move you a little faster.

Diana (01:05:03):

Yes.

Diana (01:05:04):

How say spoiled?

Diana (01:05:08):

No, it's not spoiled.

Diana (01:05:09):

I'm looking for the word.

Diana (01:05:11):

When you say something, it's not known yet.

Bedros (01:05:16):

Oh, the secret.

Bedros (01:05:17):

I'm giving away your secret.

Diana (01:05:20):

No, I'm trying to get you people to... It's not a secret.

Diana (01:05:23):

I'm not bursting your bubble.

Bedros (01:05:28):

I'm not bursting your bubble.

Bedros (01:05:30):

I don't accept that.

Bedros (01:05:31):

Even though I have the power to do it, I believe I didn't do it.

Bedros (01:05:36):

The question I have is, can people help

Bedros (01:05:39):

the cause of Diana Mkrtchyan,

Bedros (01:05:41):

who's this savant who can go somewhere like a firefighter,

Bedros (01:05:47):

come down, take the picture,

Bedros (01:05:48):

leave,

Bedros (01:05:50):

the place burns up.

Bedros (01:05:51):

You've already done it once in the villages.

Bedros (01:05:53):

Now you're doing it again in Karabakh.

Diana (01:05:56):

I want to share with you because I really didn't tell about it.

Diana (01:06:02):

But first of all, I want to say that the director of the Shushi Rugs Museum is Vartan Asatryan.

Diana (01:06:12):

I lost his name, Vartan Asatryan.

Diana (01:06:14):

It's a great man because the work he made is huge about to preserve Armenian rugs.

Diana (01:06:22):

And today he has no place.

Diana (01:06:25):

So I don't know. It's something that it's very painful.

Diana (01:06:28):

It's very painful, our history.

Bedros (01:06:30):

I'm sure that Mr. Aliyev will call it Albanian Christian rugs.

Diana (01:06:35):

Of course, of course, we know about that story.

Diana (01:06:38):

All these carpets he managed to,

Diana (01:06:43):

the part of these carpets he managed to bring to Yerevan,

Diana (01:06:47):

and now they are nowhere.

Diana (01:06:49):

You understand?

Diana (01:06:50):

Genocide, we don't need Turkish to genocide ourselves.

Diana (01:06:55):

That's what I want to say to you, Bedros.

Diana (01:06:57):

We don't need Aliyev to genocide ourselves.

Diana (01:06:59):

We just, we have Pashinyan.

Diana (01:07:03):

We don't need someone to be genocide.

Diana (01:07:07):

When you have these carpets in Yerevan and you do nothing with it.

Diana (01:07:11):

So I think that we really, you know, there are autoimmune diseases.

Diana (01:07:16):

So we have something like that.

Diana (01:07:18):

We have some cancer in Yerevan.

Diana (01:07:22):

I don't know.

Bedros (01:07:23):

In our body politic.

Diana (01:07:25):

In our body, yes.

Diana (01:07:26):

We carry a cancer.

Diana (01:07:28):

And I don't know why.

Diana (01:07:29):

I cannot explain here.

Diana (01:07:31):

And these Artsakh people,

Diana (01:07:33):

the refugees from Artsakh,

Diana (01:07:34):

in a couple of years,

Diana (01:07:35):

we can make the second part of Artsakh with Artsakh people.

Diana (01:07:41):

That's the problem.

Diana (01:07:42):

That's the problem.

Diana (01:07:44):

What I meant, when Artsakh was in blockade, I decided to record some testimonies.

Diana (01:07:53):

And so I contacted some people in Artsakh, in Martouni, in Shushi, Stepanakert.

Diana (01:08:01):

And so I have some technical support of one guy who helped me with Ojakh also.

Diana (01:08:08):

And I just was speaking with them during this genocide,

Diana (01:08:14):

I want to say this blockade of nine months.

Diana (01:08:18):

And I called them by WhatsApp and I was just recording our conversations and screen

Diana (01:08:27):

recording also by WhatsApp.

Diana (01:08:29):

And then I have some Russian material,

Diana (01:08:34):

raw material,

Diana (01:08:35):

a couple of hours,

Diana (01:08:40):

four heroes,

Diana (01:08:41):

but maybe I will make the film just about one woman.

Diana (01:08:46):

I didn't decide because,

Diana (01:08:47):

you know,

Diana (01:08:48):

I'm working also and you cannot live on cinema,

Diana (01:08:51):

unfortunately,

Diana (01:08:52):

or you are going to make the cinema you are not proud of.

Diana (01:08:57):

So you should choose which kind of cinema you are going to make.

Diana (01:09:01):

So maybe I hope I will get behind.

Bedros (01:09:05):

Okay, I know the raw materials.

Bedros (01:09:07):

Everything is fine.

Bedros (01:09:08):

Diana, the question is, how can conscientious Armenians

Bedros (01:09:14):

who cannot win the argument about the old genocide because the Pashinyan heresy,

Bedros (01:09:22):

the gang of thieves and liars that is their ilk,

Bedros (01:09:28):

has that sewn up for now.

Bedros (01:09:30):

They haven't gotten around to saying that Artsakh doesn't exist yet because the

Bedros (01:09:34):

Artsakh isn't around.

Bedros (01:09:36):

So you still have 20 years while there's going to be personal testimonies that you

Bedros (01:09:41):

could collect as you have.

Bedros (01:09:44):

During that time,

Bedros (01:09:45):

how can conscientious Western Armenians with money,

Bedros (01:09:48):

with resources,

Bedros (01:09:50):

with ideas,

Bedros (01:09:51):

with enthusiasm,

Bedros (01:09:53):

help

Bedros (01:09:55):

in propagating that story and the story about the rugs,

Bedros (01:09:59):

which is another slam dunk Diana style proof that it's all true.

Bedros (01:10:05):

Because you're not saying it,

Bedros (01:10:07):

but what you mean by the secret code is the crosses,

Bedros (01:10:12):

the symbolism of Christianity that they put into these rugs,

Bedros (01:10:16):

which does not allow people in Iran or Azerbaijan or Turkey to claim that these are

Bedros (01:10:22):

Turkish products.

Bedros (01:10:23):

because they're fully Christian symbolisms in them and Armenian symbolisms,

Bedros (01:10:30):

the letters and this and that,

Bedros (01:10:31):

right?

Diana (01:10:33):

It's not only the crosses, it's also the eagles, you know, the symbol of resurrection.

Diana (01:10:38):

It's dragons.

Diana (01:10:41):

Also, if you see the form of the dragons, it's a letter T in Armenian, senior.

Diana (01:10:46):

So there are many, many scripted messages in Armenian rugs.

Diana (01:10:51):

You know, I really dream to make a documentary film about Armenian rugs.

Diana (01:10:57):

And I am, I don't know if I can do it because it, you know,

Diana (01:11:03):

It will take time, the financial support.

Diana (01:11:07):

I really dream to make a film about the rugs.

Diana (01:11:10):

But for Artsakh film about the time of blockade,

Diana (01:11:16):

yes, if someone wants to help me,

Diana (01:11:19):

they can just write me on my Facebook page.

Diana (01:11:21):

It's Diana Mkrtchyan.

Diana (01:11:23):

It's not difficult to find me.

Diana (01:11:25):

Because I really don't know that...

Diana (01:11:29):

That we will have the, how say, faire la queue.

Diana (01:11:34):

Que les gens vont faire la queue pour aider.

Bedros (01:11:36):

There won't be a long line of people lined up to help you.

Bedros (01:11:41):

Well, I'm going to prove you wrong.

Bedros (01:11:43):

Go on Facebook and direct message.

Bedros (01:11:46):

Here's my advice to you,

Bedros (01:11:47):

whoever you are listening to Aspect Bedrosian's Empire Guru Podcast and try to help

Bedros (01:11:55):

people

Bedros (01:11:57):

Diana Mkrtchyan, that's all I ask of you for this new year.

Bedros (01:12:01):

Show her wrong.

Bedros (01:12:02):

Show that you will deluge her inbox with help promised to bring this to fruition so

Bedros (01:12:13):

that we can preserve Artsakh.

Bedros (01:12:15):

which we can't preserve now.

Diana (01:12:18):

You know,

Diana (01:12:19):

this is a film about,

Diana (01:12:20):

it will be the film about one woman,

Diana (01:12:24):

Artsakh woman who is living in Martouni,

Diana (01:12:26):

her name is Anna.

Diana (01:12:27):

And I called her and every day she told me how was it?

Diana (01:12:32):

She said, today I didn't manage to buy a bread because there is no bread.

Diana (01:12:36):

But I was waiting six hours.

Diana (01:12:38):

I didn't have a bread.

Diana (01:12:40):

There is no coffee.

Diana (01:12:42):

There was nothing.

Diana (01:12:43):

But, you know,

Diana (01:12:44):

also in these conversations,

Diana (01:12:46):

you will see that the dignity you mentioned for Ojakh is the same.

Diana (01:12:52):

It's the same.

Diana (01:12:53):

And then she was a florist.

Diana (01:12:55):

She was a florist.

Diana (01:12:59):

Florist, yes.

Diana (01:13:00):

And she was selling the flowers.

Diana (01:13:04):

And it's very interesting her story because she was working for the years and years

Diana (01:13:10):

like a florist.

Diana (01:13:11):

And she said, you know, Dana, when people, they opened the door of my shop, I knew that

Diana (01:13:19):

they are going buy the flowers for whom?

Diana (01:13:22):

Is it for the marriage or is it because they lost the soldier?

Diana (01:13:28):

I knew.

Diana (01:13:29):

And when the people came to buy the flowers, they...

Diana (01:13:34):

They used to tell her their stories, their lives.

Diana (01:13:37):

And, you know, then you discover that life.

Diana (01:13:40):

And someone is coming to buy the flowers for the marriage and the second one

Diana (01:13:45):

because his son was killed on the border and so on and so on.

Diana (01:13:49):

And it's very interesting because it will be really very simple documentary film, very simple.

Diana (01:13:55):

And that's why I don't want to really have...

Diana (01:14:00):

something with producer because this is a factory, you know, producer company.

Diana (01:14:07):

Maybe it will be the life of Anna or something like, very simple, because it will be too much.

Diana (01:14:14):

I don't want to ask to the spectator what he should think about.

Diana (01:14:22):

He should just share that life with Anna and then the ideas will come, you know.

Diana (01:14:28):

Of course it's a second genocide, of course.

Diana (01:14:31):

But...

Diana (01:14:33):

I think that we shouldn't say, we shouldn't give the ideas.

Diana (01:14:38):

We should really trust the intelligence of the people who are going to watch this

Diana (01:14:43):

film and to make their own conclusions.

Diana (01:14:47):

I don't like really put the answers on the mouth.

Diana (01:14:51):

So we are fed up by that.

Diana (01:14:53):

With Soviet time and now also fed up.

Diana (01:14:56):

So we should trust people because they have their intellectual potential to think

Diana (01:15:01):

and to analyze and to...

Bedros (01:15:02):

Second coming is a Christian reference, Diana.

Bedros (01:15:06):

It's not telling him anything.

Bedros (01:15:09):

Second coming. That was the joke.

Bedros (01:15:11):

All right.

Bedros (01:15:12):

So I think that does it.

Bedros (01:15:14):

You have now the way to help Anna make movies.

Bedros (01:15:18):

And Diana has inspired you.

Bedros (01:15:21):

And...

Bedros (01:15:25):

One last question I have on my list is,

Bedros (01:15:27):

do you have any concrete advice to future Armenian filmmakers?

Diana (01:15:35):

I think to be... Stay true to yourself.

Diana (01:15:47):

Yes,

Diana (01:15:48):

to stay through to themselves,

Diana (01:15:51):

because to be authentic,

Diana (01:15:54):

because the Armenian cinema is very pathetic,

Diana (01:15:57):

very pathetic.

Diana (01:15:58):

And just let the spectator to really have,

Diana (01:16:07):

to really share some space,

Diana (01:16:08):

you know,

Diana (01:16:09):

not give the answers.

Diana (01:16:11):

Armenian cinema is very pathetic.

Diana (01:16:13):

The sound is bad.

Diana (01:16:14):

And the editing is not good.

Diana (01:16:18):

We have some good films, yes, but the editing also, you know, they zoom every time.

Diana (01:16:24):

I don't know how the cinema, how to say, the education, how it's...

Bedros (01:16:32):

Or lack thereof.

Bedros (01:16:34):

I like Garod.

Bedros (01:16:35):

Garod is a film that I've seen 40 years ago that I loved.

Bedros (01:16:38):

But you're right.

Bedros (01:16:39):

I can't name three other ones I love.

Bedros (01:16:42):

So I like Peleshian, but...

Diana (01:16:45):

No, Peleshian is not a modern Armenian.

Bedros (01:16:50):

He also never filmed anything.

Bedros (01:16:52):

He never touched the camera.

Bedros (01:16:54):

He's an editor.

Bedros (01:16:55):

So I think you would like him.

Bedros (01:16:57):

I agree.

Bedros (01:16:58):

We have visual people like Parajanov,

Bedros (01:17:01):

but entire filmmakers,

Bedros (01:17:04):

you know, Fellinis,

Bedros (01:17:05):

we don't have...

Bedros (01:17:07):

that we don't have.

Bedros (01:17:08):

And we should, because it's in our nature to be that way.

Bedros (01:17:11):

I want to leave you.

Bedros (01:17:12):

We spoke about Russians a lot.

Bedros (01:17:14):

Let me give you a story I learned from Gergiev directly in Switzerland at the

Bedros (01:17:21):

Verbier music festival in 2018.

Bedros (01:17:24):

So I don't know if you know,

Bedros (01:17:27):

but Gergiev was one of the greatest conductors that Russia has ever produced.

Bedros (01:17:32):

was first the conductor of the Armenian Philharmonic Orchestra.

Bedros (01:17:35):

That was his first major job in 1985.

Bedros (01:17:39):

So they told him to go there.

Bedros (01:17:41):

He said, why should I go there?

Bedros (01:17:42):

Why am I going to go to a little country at the edge of, he's a Chechen guy.

Bedros (01:17:48):

But the Moscow handlers that he had told him, no, no, you have to go to Armenia.

Bedros (01:17:55):

Because if you can handle that orchestra, you'll be able to handle any orchestra.

Bedros (01:17:59):

Sure.

Bedros (01:18:00):

And he said to me directly,

Bedros (01:18:02):

the triangle player thought that he's the concertmaster and he should be giving me

Bedros (01:18:07):

advice.

Bedros (01:18:09):

The drummer thought that he knows more about Tchaikovsky than I do.

Bedros (01:18:15):

So it's what we call herding cats in Armenian, in English.

Bedros (01:18:22):

Dealing with Armenians is like herding cats.

Bedros (01:18:25):

So you have to do it.

Bedros (01:18:27):

And making a movie is about herding cats.

Bedros (01:18:31):

So you see, Armenians are predisposed not to make movies because they're very good at not doing

Bedros (01:18:37):

one thing.

Bedros (01:18:38):

But I think through your efforts and through the people who you're going to help,

Bedros (01:18:43):

I hope that you will be able to inspire younger artists to be true to themselves,

Bedros (01:18:48):

as you said,

Bedros (01:18:49):

and make movies like Ojak out of almost nothing.

Diana (01:18:53):

I don't know.

Diana (01:18:54):

We can hope, yes.

Diana (01:18:56):

But they should also just watch another films,

Diana (01:18:59):

you know, watch another authors and other directors and other films just to have that,

Diana (01:19:06):

what we call in French,

Diana (01:19:08):

culture générale.

Diana (01:19:09):

Just...

Bedros (01:19:10):

May I suggest that you make a list of movies and directors that you like,

Bedros (01:19:17):

and Asbed will include that in the show notes,

Bedros (01:19:19):

and your young audience here might be able to try to see those movies.

Diana (01:19:25):

I don't see that they're going to watch, but I can.

Diana (01:19:30):

My favorite Armenian film is Ashnan Arev of Bagrat Hovannesyan.

Diana (01:19:37):

I adore this film, you know.

Diana (01:19:38):

It's the first one that comes, but it's Armenian film, okay?

Diana (01:19:42):

But I think that you are speaking about the world cinema.

Diana (01:19:49):

I can make the list if you wish, yes.

Diana (01:19:51):

Ten films.

Bedros (01:19:52):

Please, I think it would be a permanent record.

Bedros (01:19:58):

You and I have talked about it, but I think the general audience needs to know.

Bedros (01:20:02):

And you just said you want them to have general education.

Bedros (01:20:05):

So help them, guide them through this process.

Bedros (01:20:09):

And they can contact you by direct messaging you on Facebook and asking you more

Bedros (01:20:13):

specific questions if they want.

Diana (01:20:15):

Yes, yes, it's possible.

Diana (01:20:19):

Askoldov, the commissar of Askoldov.

Diana (01:20:21):

Yes, because some films come like that.

Bedros (01:20:23):

Yes, yes.

Bedros (01:20:25):

The color of pomegranates.

Diana (01:20:27):

Yes, the mirror of Tarkovsky I like also.

Diana (01:20:30):

Commissar Askoldov, Parajanov also.

Diana (01:20:33):

Yes, you know, I'm living in France and here we are, what we say, gate.

Diana (01:20:39):

Spoiled, you're spoiled.

Diana (01:20:42):

spoiled really by a good film.

Bedros (01:20:44):

Yes, it's amazing.

Bedros (01:20:45):

People read, people go to movies.

Bedros (01:20:47):

I mean, it's just incredible.

Bedros (01:20:49):

People get brown fingers by smoking cigarettes.

Bedros (01:20:52):

You know, it's a great place.

Diana (01:20:54):

It exists.

Bedros (01:20:56):

All right. Well, we have to let it go there.

Bedros (01:20:58):

Thank you very much for your time, Diana.

Bedros (01:21:00):

I know it's very late for you, and it was a pleasure talking with you.

Diana (01:21:05):

Thank you.

Head Shot

Asbed Bedrossian

Co-host
Head Shot

Hovik Manucharyan

Co-host
Head Shot

Bedros Afeyan

Guest
Head Shot

Diana Mkrtchyan

Guest

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