Armenian News Network - Groong: Week In Review Podcast

Kevork Hagopjian - Armenia’s Church-State Showdown | Ep 504, Jan 13, 2026

• Armenian News Network / Groong • Episode 504

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Conversations on Groong - January 13, 2026

Topics:

  • The Legal Architecture: Autonomy, Exclusive Mission, and State Neutrality
  • Engineering Parallel, Schismatic Structures
  • Criminal Law as Leverage
  • Bern in Action and Reaction
  • The Deeper Stakes: National Identity

Guest: Kevork Hagopjian

Hosts:

Episode 504 | Recorded: January 12, 2026

SHOW NOTES: https://podcasts.groong.org/504

VIDEO: https://youtu.be/TD1HLVnKyqc

#Armenia #ArmenianChurch #Etchmiadzin #HumanRights #ReligiousFreedom


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Asbed (00:00:04):

Hello, everyone, and welcome to this Conversations on Groong episode.

Asbed (00:00:07):

We're continuing to discuss the outrageous attacks on the Armenian Apostolic Church

Asbed (00:00:11):

by Nikol Pashinyan and his government.

Asbed (00:00:14):

And today with us,

Asbed (00:00:15):

we have Dr.

Asbed (00:00:16):

Kevork Hagopjian,

Asbed (00:00:17):

an attorney and human rights advocate with expertise in international law,

Asbed (00:00:21):

human rights,

Asbed (00:00:22):

minority rights,

Asbed (00:00:23):

civil litigation,

Asbed (00:00:24):

and community engagement.

Hovik (00:00:28):

Definitely looking forward to this discussion, folks.

Hovik (00:00:31):

And before we go to Dr. Hagopjian, thanks for listening to us.

Hovik (00:00:36):

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Hovik (00:00:41):

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Hovik (00:00:47):

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Hovik (00:00:51):

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Hovik (00:00:59):

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Hovik (00:01:00):

sustaining member and help us plan our shows accordingly and help us reach more

Hovik (00:01:05):

people.

Hovik (00:01:07):

All right, on to the show.

Asbed (00:01:10):

Dr. Hagopjian, welcome to the Groong podcast.

Hovik (00:01:12):

Thank you.

Hovik (00:01:13):

Good morning.

Hovik (00:01:14):

Welcome.

Hovik (00:01:15):

Welcome.

Asbed (00:01:16):

Kevork, this is your first time on our show.

Asbed (00:01:17):

Please tell us about yourself and your work in the area of human and minority

Asbed (00:01:22):

rights and community engagement.

Kevork (00:01:24):

Definitely.

Kevork (00:01:25):

Thank you very much for hosting me this morning.

Kevork (00:01:28):

I'm Kevork Hagopjian,

Kevork (00:01:30):

an attorney and human rights advocate with some expertise in international law,

Kevork (00:01:36):

minority rights,

Kevork (00:01:37):

civil litigation,

Kevork (00:01:38):

and as you said,

Kevork (00:01:39):

community engagement.

Kevork (00:01:41):

I hold a PhD in law from University of Vienna and two LLMs,

Kevork (00:01:46):

one of them from University of London SOAS in international law and another one in

Kevork (00:01:51):

US law from Antonin Scalia Law School at George Mason University.

Kevork (00:01:58):

My doctoral research focused on minority rights,

Kevork (00:02:02):

particularly the Armenian minority rights in Turkey and Lebanon under international

Kevork (00:02:08):

and national laws.

Kevork (00:02:11):

Currently, I work as an attorney in California.

Kevork (00:02:15):

I work at Keosian Law LLP in the civil litigation department focusing on mass torts cases.

Kevork (00:02:23):

Apart from that, I'm actively engaged with the Armenian National Committee of America.

Kevork (00:02:29):

I'm on the board of Western Region as well as the Armenian Legal Center for Justice

Kevork (00:02:35):

and Human Rights.

Kevork (00:02:36):

And I also support the Armenian Bar Association's pro bono clinic.

Asbed (00:02:41):

Thank you for all that.

Asbed (00:02:43):

That's a very active life you have.

Asbed (00:02:45):

For our listeners,

Asbed (00:02:46):

we're putting everything in

Asbed (00:02:49):

Dr. Hagopjian's bio,

Asbed (00:02:51):

which you can access through our show notes,

Asbed (00:02:53):

podcasts.groong.org/episode-number.

Asbed (00:02:56):

Okay, well, let's jump into our topics, Kevork.

Asbed (00:03:01):

Now, Pashinyan has a political problem.

Asbed (00:03:03):

He's deeply unpopular.

Asbed (00:03:04):

He's heading into an election in June 2026.

Asbed (00:03:08):

He lost a catastrophic war in 2020,

Asbed (00:03:10):

and most Armenian institutions called for his resignation,

Asbed (00:03:13):

including the Armenian Apostolic Church,

Asbed (00:03:16):

which, by the way,

Asbed (00:03:17):

is the most highly trusted institution in Armenia,

Asbed (00:03:20):

and that by far.

Asbed (00:03:21):

It is twice as popular as any government ministry, agency, or institution in the country.

Asbed (00:03:27):

But after everything, Pashinyan did survive those calls for his resignation in 2021.

Asbed (00:03:33):

But he also has a geopolitical problem.

Asbed (00:03:35):

His cling to power at this point depends on Turkey and Azerbaijan's support.

Asbed (00:03:40):

And he gets, unfortunately, his signals from Baku or Ankara.

Asbed (00:03:43):

When in May 2025,

Asbed (00:03:45):

a year ago,

Asbed (00:03:46):

the Catholicos,

Asbed (00:03:47):

Garekin II,

Asbed (00:03:48):

went to a peace conference in Bern,

Asbed (00:03:50):

Switzerland,

Asbed (00:03:51):

and openly talked about the right of return of Artsakhtsis to their homeland and the

Asbed (00:03:55):

destruction of Christian Armenian monuments and heritage in Artsakh,

Asbed (00:03:59):

the reaction from Baku was swift.

Asbed (00:04:02):

Their top cleric,

Asbed (00:04:03):

Allahshukur Pashazadeh,

Asbed (00:04:04):

called the Catholicos and the Armenian church terrorists,

Asbed (00:04:08):

and he called for their neutralization.

Asbed (00:04:11):

And then we heard the same thing from Azeri Media and government ministries.

Asbed (00:04:15):

And the next reaction was also swift.

Asbed (00:04:17):

Pashinyan kicked in with frivolous charges and arrests against the Catholicos and

Asbed (00:04:21):

bishops and archbishops and priests and deacons loyal to the Catholicos.

Asbed (00:04:26):

Kevork, your Asbarez article on December 3rd,

Asbed (00:04:29):

2025 was detailed and thoughtful,

Asbed (00:04:32):

and you started with first principles.

Asbed (00:04:35):

The Armenian constitution protects freedom of religion,

Asbed (00:04:38):

affirms the separation of church and state,

Asbed (00:04:41):

and recognizes the Armenian apostolic church's exclusive mission in national life,

Asbed (00:04:47):

according to Article 18.

Asbed (00:04:48):

You're right.

Asbed (00:04:50):

So Pashinyan's government appears to be operating not only just illegally,

Asbed (00:04:54):

but also unconstitutionally.

Asbed (00:04:57):

And he has doubled down with presenting his so-called vision of reforming the

Asbed (00:05:01):

church, blocking access to churches,

Asbed (00:05:03):

forcing on canonical liturgy,

Asbed (00:05:05):

on defrocked priests,

Asbed (00:05:06):

and so on.

Asbed (00:05:07):

So please tell us,

Asbed (00:05:08):

in plain terms,

Asbed (00:05:09):

what does state neutrality require the government to do and not to do?

Kevork (00:05:15):

Wow, this was a heavy introduction.

Asbed (00:05:19):

I tried to put it in a nutshell.

Asbed (00:05:20):

Yes. And you know this is the short story, if we were to get into it.

Kevork (00:05:23):

Yes, it is.

Kevork (00:05:24):

And very nicely summarized, I would say.

Kevork (00:05:29):

Let me start with a brief introduction on what do we mean when we say separation of

Kevork (00:05:36):

church and state.

Kevork (00:05:38):

Separation of church and state means two things at once.

Kevork (00:05:43):

First, the state doesn't control religion and religious institutions.

Kevork (00:05:49):

And second, religion doesn't run the state.

Kevork (00:05:54):

But it doesn't mean silencing religious voices as long as the church is not trying

Kevork (00:06:00):

to exercise a state authority.

Kevork (00:06:02):

such as controlling the police,

Kevork (00:06:04):

writing laws,

Kevork (00:06:06):

fixing or administering elections,

Kevork (00:06:08):

and its leaders are free to speak like any other citizens or any other non-state

Kevork (00:06:16):

actors.

Kevork (00:06:17):

So basically, it's mainly a rule for the state, not a muzzle on religion.

Kevork (00:06:24):

And it also is a barrier to religious institutions exercising state power, as I mentioned.

Kevork (00:06:32):

Freedom of religion is a basic human rights,

Kevork (00:06:36):

and it is codified both in international law,

Kevork (00:06:39):

international human rights law,

Kevork (00:06:41):

and at Armenia's institution.

Kevork (00:06:44):

As you mentioned, Article 18 and 1718 of Armenia's current constitution.

Kevork (00:06:54):

So freedom of religion basically guarantees the inner freedom to believe or not to believe.

Kevork (00:07:00):

This is an absolute right.

Kevork (00:07:02):

No state can intervene into this and also the freedom to practice and organize

Kevork (00:07:08):

religion alone or with others.

Kevork (00:07:12):

The state has a very basic duty.

Kevork (00:07:17):

And that duty is to remain neutral and impartial.

Kevork (00:07:22):

So the government,

Kevork (00:07:23):

any government,

Kevork (00:07:24):

I'm not talking about the Armenian government,

Kevork (00:07:26):

as long as they are part of the international human rights treaties,

Kevork (00:07:31):

they must not declare some beliefs as good and others as bad.

Kevork (00:07:36):

They cannot choose or remove religious leaders.

Kevork (00:07:39):

They cannot take sides in internal church disputes, so on and so forth.

Kevork (00:07:44):

And also religious communities and religious institutions have a right to internal

Kevork (00:07:50):

autonomy and to have their own internal charters,

Kevork (00:07:54):

regulations,

Kevork (00:07:56):

procedures, processes in place to choose their own leaders.

Kevork (00:08:00):

to discipline those who violate their internal rules,

Kevork (00:08:04):

to manage their own property and institutions as long as they respect general laws

Kevork (00:08:10):

such as the criminal law of the state or the civil law of the state.

Kevork (00:08:16):

the state can interfere only when there are violations of the public orders or

Kevork (00:08:23):

others' rights are violated.

Kevork (00:08:26):

So the state cannot use law to punish the wrong theology or criticism or any

Kevork (00:08:36):

contradictions to their state foreign policies,

Kevork (00:08:39):

let's say.

Kevork (00:08:41):

So these are the

Kevork (00:08:44):

essence of freedom of religion and belief and what do we mean by separation of

Kevork (00:08:50):

state and church.

Kevork (00:08:53):

It doesn't mean that the church doesn't have a voice to raise when it comes to

Kevork (00:09:02):

political issues or issues of national concern or Pan-Armenian related agendas.

Kevork (00:09:10):

In contrary, the church as one of the most important Pan-Armenian non-state institutions has a

Kevork (00:09:20):

legal and moral duty to stand up to

Kevork (00:09:25):

provide guidance,

Kevork (00:09:27):

to provide some solutions when the nation is going through turmoils or facing

Kevork (00:09:35):

genocidal threats,

Kevork (00:09:37):

wars,

Kevork (00:09:38):

crimes against humanity,

Kevork (00:09:39):

so on and so forth.

Asbed (00:09:41):

So when it comes to this exclusive mission in the Constitution,

Asbed (00:09:47):

Put together with the concept of separation of church and state,

Asbed (00:09:51):

how do they fit together legally?

Asbed (00:09:53):

What do they authorize?

Asbed (00:09:54):

What do they forbid in a sense?

Asbed (00:09:57):

Okay.

Kevork (00:09:57):

From the state's point of view, the state has legally three obligations.

Kevork (00:10:05):

or three duties.

Kevork (00:10:07):

The first one is to respect,

Kevork (00:10:09):

the second one is to duty to protect,

Kevork (00:10:12):

and the third one is the duty to fulfill or to satisfy.

Kevork (00:10:16):

Let's put these three duties within the framework of freedom of religion and belief.

Kevork (00:10:22):

When we say the state has a duty to respect,

Kevork (00:10:26):

we mean that the state should not interfere into the internal affairs of the church

Kevork (00:10:33):

or any affair,

Kevork (00:10:34):

any matter,

Kevork (00:10:35):

or to any things that are related to belief systems,

Kevork (00:10:41):

selection of leaders,

Kevork (00:10:44):

management of the communities,

Kevork (00:10:46):

appointments of bishops,

Kevork (00:10:48):

defrocking bishops,

Kevork (00:10:49):

clergy,

Kevork (00:10:50):

so on and so forth.

Kevork (00:10:53):

The state should respect

Kevork (00:10:55):

the autonomy of the religious institution should not interfere,

Kevork (00:11:00):

again, as long as the church or any religious institution is not violating the rules and

Kevork (00:11:07):

regulations and laws.

Kevork (00:11:09):

The second duty is to protect,

Kevork (00:11:11):

for example,

Kevork (00:11:12):

when the church is under attack or let's assume any of the churches is vandalized.

Kevork (00:11:19):

The state has a duty to investigate, to prosecute, to help all those.

Kevork (00:11:27):

responsible accountable or let's take another example the videos that were leaked

Kevork (00:11:33):

for archbishop arshak the state has a duty to investigate that incident because

Kevork (00:11:39):

that was a severe violation of the rights of privacy of that clergy and that

Kevork (00:11:45):

constitutes a severe breach of someone's personal life so the state has a duty to

Kevork (00:11:53):

investigate and initiate a criminal

Kevork (00:11:57):

procedure to find out who and how and what did happen.

Kevork (00:12:04):

Or, for example,

Kevork (00:12:06):

now we have some defrocked priests who are still not abandoning their positions or

Kevork (00:12:15):

they are still conducting their services within the church.

Kevork (00:12:20):

In theory and in reality, the church could have asked

Kevork (00:12:25):

the state's intervention because they are not anymore legitimate to take the altar.

Kevork (00:12:33):

But what we are witnessing is the opposite.

Kevork (00:12:36):

The state, instead of protecting the church from those who have been defrocked,

Kevork (00:12:43):

they are facilitating access and supporting the activities of those who are

Kevork (00:12:50):

defrocked by the church you see what i mean so the state actually in this very

Kevork (00:12:54):

scenario is doing exactly the opposite of what duties they have to do the third is

Kevork (00:13:03):

to fulfill by for example

Kevork (00:13:07):

allowing,

Kevork (00:13:09):

providing lands or accepting the church from taxes,

Kevork (00:13:14):

so on and so forth,

Kevork (00:13:15):

by providing means and legal avenues and legal tools to facilitate the

Kevork (00:13:24):

church or to support the church in facilitating its mission again what we are

Kevork (00:13:30):

witnessing a couple of weeks ago there were discussions that the church the state

Kevork (00:13:36):

moving forward will not offer land for free to the Armenian church which

Kevork (00:13:43):

is again a departure from its internationally ratified obligations the state

Kevork (00:13:52):

of Armenia is part of the European Convention of Human Rights and also ratified the

Kevork (00:13:58):

several bills of human rights,

Kevork (00:14:01):

including the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights,

Kevork (00:14:05):

which these two

Kevork (00:14:07):

treaties alone the universe European convention of human rights and the ICCPR put

Kevork (00:14:15):

clear duties on the state to respect protect and fulfill the obligations when it

Kevork (00:14:24):

comes to freedom of religion and belief and as i demonstrated the current

Kevork (00:14:30):

authorities

Kevork (00:14:32):

with Pashinyan,

Kevork (00:14:33):

they are violating,

Kevork (00:14:36):

not only they are disrespecting their duties,

Kevork (00:14:38):

but they are crossing all constitutional lines by violating,

Kevork (00:14:44):

these are not only bad actions,

Kevork (00:14:46):

they are legally violations of state obligations and violations of international

Kevork (00:14:54):

human rights law.

Kevork (00:14:55):

So now from the point of the church,

Kevork (00:14:58):

what the church can do or legally is allowed to do again,

Kevork (00:15:03):

the church,

Kevork (00:15:05):

as you mentioned in the introduction,

Kevork (00:15:08):

is one of the most influential

Kevork (00:15:12):

institutions that we have in our reality and the church no matter how influential

Kevork (00:15:19):

or important is at the end legally speaking is a non-state actor and as a non-state

Kevork (00:15:26):

actor it enjoys all the freedoms and rights that any non-state actor enjoys in

Kevork (00:15:33):

terms of freedom of speech freedom of assembly freedom of association freedom of

Kevork (00:15:41):

internally

Kevork (00:15:42):

regulating their affairs, so on and so forth.

Kevork (00:15:45):

So putting within this context,

Kevork (00:15:48):

the church,

Kevork (00:15:49):

in addition to the rights that they enjoy as non-state actors,

Kevork (00:15:55):

has a constitutional status.

Kevork (00:15:58):

The Article 18 of the Armenian Constitution gives a specific mission to the

Kevork (00:16:03):

Armenian Church,

Kevork (00:16:04):

and the Armenian Church has a unique position within the Armenian legal system by

Kevork (00:16:11):

having this important place or a status that regulates the state and church

Kevork (00:16:18):

relationship.

Kevork (00:16:19):

This is why when the Armenian Church

Kevork (00:16:23):

practices,

Kevork (00:16:24):

actually,

Kevork (00:16:25):

it's right by raising concerns,

Kevork (00:16:29):

by defending the rights of Artsakhtsis,

Kevork (00:16:31):

by claiming their lost properties.

Kevork (00:16:35):

At the end, let's not forget that dozens,

Kevork (00:16:37):

if not hundreds of religious sites and religious heritage were occupied in Artsakh

Kevork (00:16:45):

recently,

Kevork (00:16:46):

and the church has a legal duty,

Kevork (00:16:49):

let's forget all the other duties,

Kevork (00:16:52):

to

Kevork (00:16:53):

protect its property and to claim its properties back.

Kevork (00:16:59):

So this is what the church is doing actually.

Kevork (00:17:02):

The fact that it is not in line or in harmony with the current foreign policy of

Kevork (00:17:09):

the state doesn't justify the oppression and the efforts to delegitimize and

Kevork (00:17:17):

restructure the church by the current government.

Asbed (00:17:22):

We wanna talk about some of those examples that you mentioned to greater detail,

Asbed (00:17:26):

but allow me one question right before that.

Asbed (00:17:29):

If the government says it's exercising free speech,

Asbed (00:17:33):

you know how Pashinyan has said he is just trying to reform the church because he's

Asbed (00:17:37):

a concerned Christian,

Asbed (00:17:38):

I guess.

Asbed (00:17:39):

What's the legal test for when speech becomes state interference?

Asbed (00:17:43):

In the sense, if the Catholicos calls for Pashinyan's resignation,

Asbed (00:17:46):

and that is protected speech,

Asbed (00:17:48):

why is a prime minister calling for the Catholicos to resign,

Asbed (00:17:52):

not equally protected?

Kevork (00:17:55):

well because very simply because the state has a duty of neutrality and

Kevork (00:18:02):

impartiality and when the state and the head of state calls for the resignation of

Kevork (00:18:09):

the Catholicos or initiates

Kevork (00:18:12):

the so-called reform process,

Kevork (00:18:15):

it directly violates its duty of neutrality and impartiality,

Kevork (00:18:20):

and it interferes directly into the religious and internal matters of the non-state

Kevork (00:18:29):

actors. It has nothing to do with the freedom of speech argument because they are not

Kevork (00:18:36):

making this speech as individuals, but rather as representatives of the state.

Kevork (00:18:43):

And the proof of this is having Pashinyan's signature under the recent declaration

Kevork (00:18:52):

that puts forward a pathway or a roadmap for reforming the church.

Kevork (00:18:58):

So that is a clear, by the way, that declaration, legally speaking, has no legal effect.

Kevork (00:19:06):

With that declaration, nothing can be changed.

Kevork (00:19:09):

Neither the church can be reformed,

Kevork (00:19:12):

nor the internal charter of the church can be revised,

Kevork (00:19:16):

nor the Catholicos can be removed because it's not a law.

Kevork (00:19:20):

It's just a declaration without any legal effect.

Kevork (00:19:24):

But the symbolic and the legal

Kevork (00:19:27):

Implication of that declaration is the proof that the state is crossing all the

Kevork (00:19:35):

constitutional lines and violating its duties of neutrality and impartiality.

Kevork (00:19:42):

This is the difference.

Kevork (00:19:46):

Again, I will reiterate, he speaks as a representative of a non-state actor.

Kevork (00:19:55):

When Pashinyan speaks, he speaks as the head of the state.

Kevork (00:19:59):

And this is the main difference.

Hovik (00:20:02):

Kevork,

Hovik (00:20:04):

hearing you talk about all of this,

Hovik (00:20:07):

it seems to be very black and white in that the government cannot sponsor parallel

Hovik (00:20:13):

church structures.

Hovik (00:20:16):

It cannot act to weaken one particular religion or any religion, I would say.

Hovik (00:20:21):

Yet Pashinyan seems to be doing completely the opposite.

Hovik (00:20:25):

We saw there are allegations that it is actively instigating this process,

Hovik (00:20:31):

including potentially bribing or paying off clergy who decide to join him.

Hovik (00:20:37):

Now, that's not confirmed, but those are the allegations in the media.

Hovik (00:20:43):

And starting from this new year,

Hovik (00:20:46):

besides the statement that you mentioned,

Hovik (00:20:48):

I fear that Pashinyan is trying to put an institutional,

Hovik (00:20:54):

is trying to institutionalize this process.

Hovik (00:20:58):

You know, he created this structure and he keeps referring to it as the so-called

Hovik (00:21:04):

Apostolic Church of Armenia Council,

Hovik (00:21:07):

but he's deliberately naming it as the Apostolic Church of Armenia.

Hovik (00:21:11):

What's worrisome is that the renegade bishops that decided to join him are also

Hovik (00:21:16):

using that name,

Hovik (00:21:17):

so it is not just a coincidence.

Hovik (00:21:21):

Meanwhile, the official name of the Armenian church is the Armenian Apostolic Church,

Hovik (00:21:25):

just for the record.

Hovik (00:21:27):

But we have more news.

Hovik (00:21:29):

After the Vehapar dismissed one of the renegade bishops,

Hovik (00:21:33):

which I believe is the right of the Catholicos,

Hovik (00:21:36):

because the Catholicos is the overall executive of the Armenian Apostolic Church,

Hovik (00:21:42):

he dismissed Bishop Gevork Saroyan,

Hovik (00:21:44):

head of the Masyatsotn Diocese in Armenia.

Hovik (00:21:48):

Just two days ago.

Hovik (00:21:49):

Well, immediately, Pashinyan's newspaper quoted Pashinyan.

Hovik (00:21:55):

Pashinyan's newspaper is,

Hovik (00:21:56):

of course,

Hovik (00:21:57):

Armenian Times,

Hovik (00:21:58):

but of course he has all the government newspapers as well,

Hovik (00:22:00):

but that's the one that's owned by his family.

Hovik (00:22:04):

Anyway,

Hovik (00:22:05):

Pashinyan's newspaper quoted him saying that he does not recognize this decision,

Hovik (00:22:10):

and according to him,

Hovik (00:22:11):

Archbishop Gevork continues to remain the head of the diocese.

Hovik (00:22:14):

Meanwhile, I believe Archbishop Asoghik has been appointed by the Vehapar already.

Hovik (00:22:23):

What is the...

Hovik (00:22:25):

I mean,

Hovik (00:22:26):

initially we were going to ask a lot of questions like,

Hovik (00:22:28):

how can Armenia avoid trying to create a schism,

Hovik (00:22:31):

try to create parallel religions,

Hovik (00:22:35):

but are we basically past that point of no return where the government has

Hovik (00:22:41):

officially given credence to a schismatic church,

Hovik (00:22:46):

a schismatic grouping within the church,

Hovik (00:22:50):

and

Hovik (00:22:51):

How do you see this resolving in the future?

Kevork (00:22:55):

It's extremely difficult to predict the upcoming developments because it's

Kevork (00:23:02):

extremely difficult to predict what Pashinyan can do.

Kevork (00:23:09):

At this time,

Kevork (00:23:10):

at this stage,

Kevork (00:23:11):

I think we should not assume that certain scenarios would be impossible.

Kevork (00:23:17):

Everything is possible with this regime.

Kevork (00:23:20):

Everything is possible.

Kevork (00:23:21):

And what we are witnessing is a clear and deliberate systematic violations of

Kevork (00:23:29):

international and constitutional obligations.

Kevork (00:23:33):

This doesn't mean that there is no light at the end of the tunnel.

Kevork (00:23:38):

Because eventually, the people have a say.

Kevork (00:23:45):

And eventually, all these scenarios will have its repercussions within the society at large.

Kevork (00:23:55):

And the Armenian church as an institution have legal mechanisms and legal avenues

Kevork (00:24:00):

that they can rely on to pursue justice by starting locally and then

Kevork (00:24:08):

going to the European court of human rights however this even if we get a

Kevork (00:24:15):

judgment or a ruling from the European convention of human rights there is no

Kevork (00:24:18):

guarantee that this regime will adhere to the rulings of the European courts of

Kevork (00:24:24):

human rights as was the case for example with the arbitration decision

Kevork (00:24:29):

when it comes to Samvel Karapetyan's case and the electric company that they

Kevork (00:24:35):

seized

Kevork (00:24:36):

So what I'm trying to say,

Kevork (00:24:38):

yes, what we are witnessing is unprecedented within the Armenian context,

Kevork (00:24:42):

but it is not unprecedented within the European case law.

Kevork (00:24:47):

Whatever you are describing happened in Latvia,

Kevork (00:24:52):

happened in Bulgaria in the past,

Kevork (00:24:54):

and the court dealt with it according to the context of that time.

Kevork (00:25:00):

And in order to...

Kevork (00:25:04):

address these challenges,

Kevork (00:25:06):

we need to be very clear that these violations will not go unpunished and everyone

Kevork (00:25:16):

will be accountable eventually for all these violations.

Kevork (00:25:21):

So it's a very delicate situation.

Kevork (00:25:25):

It's a very sensitive situation.

Kevork (00:25:28):

The state and the church, again, they have their own

Kevork (00:25:36):

And I don't think that the church is still investing properly in its own resources

Kevork (00:25:43):

that as an institution it has.

Hovik (00:25:48):

Yeah.

Hovik (00:25:49):

I mean,

Hovik (00:25:50):

it's difficult when,

Hovik (00:25:51):

for instance,

Hovik (00:25:52):

you dismiss one of the bishops and the police actually protect the bishop instead

Hovik (00:25:57):

of asking him to vacate the premises.

Kevork (00:25:59):

Instead of asking the bishop to leave the premises.

Kevork (00:26:03):

The irony is this.

Kevork (00:26:04):

The state has an obligation to protect the church.

Kevork (00:26:09):

But what we are witnessing is the opposite.

Kevork (00:26:12):

that the church is allowing those who are not supposed to be at the church by

Kevork (00:26:21):

decisions taken by the church according to the internal rules and regulations of

Kevork (00:26:26):

the church.

Kevork (00:26:27):

We might not disagree with all the decisions of the church.

Kevork (00:26:32):

We might criticize the church, but when we are talking about legal procedures and rule of law,

Kevork (00:26:40):

the state is deliberately and in a very steady manner is departing from the concept

Kevork (00:26:49):

of rule of law when it comes to this dynamics.

Kevork (00:26:55):

And my only concern is this, that instead of focusing on more existential matters, it seems that

Kevork (00:27:06):

The aim is to shift the attention of the public from more existential issues,

Kevork (00:27:12):

such as the so-called peace treaty between Azerbaijan and Armenia,

Kevork (00:27:17):

such as the ongoing occupation of the Armenian territories internationally

Kevork (00:27:23):

recognized

Kevork (00:27:24):

Armenian territories of the Republic of Armenia,

Kevork (00:27:26):

the occupation of the Republic of Artsakh,

Kevork (00:27:29):

the rights of return of the more than 150,000 Artsakhtsis,

Kevork (00:27:35):

the release of the prisoners of war and the hostages in Baku,

Kevork (00:27:42):

the accumulated billions of dollars of death that the current government

Kevork (00:27:49):

failed to manage all the other socioeconomic difficulties that the public is going through.

Kevork (00:27:57):

Even the basic needs of the public is not met.

Kevork (00:28:01):

I have relatives that they are saying they are not having electricity for 15 hours

Kevork (00:28:07):

sometimes in the midst of this severe winter in Armenia.

Kevork (00:28:11):

So instead of focusing on all this

Kevork (00:28:15):

existential matters and considering what the region is going through,

Kevork (00:28:21):

the tension in Iran,

Kevork (00:28:23):

what's going on in Iran nowadays,

Kevork (00:28:26):

all these developments,

Kevork (00:28:28):

we are focusing on

Kevork (00:28:31):

matters that are really ridiculous to discuss yes i agree the church needs

Kevork (00:28:40):

reform the church needs to improve its efficiency and effectiveness the church

Kevork (00:28:47):

needs to increase its transparency and accountability

Kevork (00:28:51):

And it needs to go back to its roots to be with the grassroots and with faithful

Kevork (00:28:57):

and so on and so forth. But all this does not justify all the illegal and unconstitutional actions taken by

Kevork (00:29:06):

the current government.

Hovik (00:29:08):

I know this is not a legal question,

Hovik (00:29:10):

but I'm going to ask it since you mentioned a few of the international aspects of

Hovik (00:29:14):

it. What do you think is driving Pashinyan to do this right now?

Hovik (00:29:19):

Because we have elections six months from now.

Hovik (00:29:23):

The church is clearly one of the most popular institutions.

Hovik (00:29:25):

I don't know how Pashinyan would score rating points by attacking the church.

Hovik (00:29:32):

So is this like a personal vendetta or do you believe it's an

Hovik (00:29:40):

attempt, I mean is there a geopolitical aspect to this perhaps? What are your

Hovik (00:29:45):

personal thoughts about this?

Kevork (00:29:47):

Well I would say multifaceted dynamics play role

Kevork (00:29:53):

one of them is the fact that decades of

Kevork (00:29:58):

attempt to delegitimize the status and authority and the spiritual value of the

Kevork (00:30:04):

church within by certain circles in Armenia started to bear some fruit so i'm not

Kevork (00:30:11):

100 sure about the popularity of the Armenian church that it has the same

Kevork (00:30:19):

popularity as it used to have throughout centuries because there were deliberate

Kevork (00:30:25):

attacks on the legitimacy and the authority of the church and church leaders in the

Kevork (00:30:31):

last couple of decades,

Kevork (00:30:34):

especially in the last seven,

Kevork (00:30:35):

eight years.

Kevork (00:30:37):

And also, let's not forget the political dynamics and we haven't mentioned it so far.

Kevork (00:30:43):

Pashinyan has been

Kevork (00:30:46):

accusing the church of aligning with foreign powers let's be clear let's

Kevork (00:30:55):

be straightforward that with Moscow and Russia and this is again not new within

Kevork (00:31:01):

the European case law there are other countries that they again attacked certain

Kevork (00:31:06):

religious communities back in early 1990s because they were accusing them of being

Kevork (00:31:11):

pro-soviet so this is not a new phenomena but this is the

Kevork (00:31:16):

the heaviest and the most dangerous accusation a state can make,

Kevork (00:31:22):

and this requires proper investigation,

Kevork (00:31:25):

transparent processes,

Kevork (00:31:27):

and evidence.

Kevork (00:31:29):

If you don't have evidence,

Kevork (00:31:31):

you cannot misuse this kind of allegations for political purposes and pure

Kevork (00:31:37):

propaganda.

Kevork (00:31:38):

This is what Pashinyan is doing.

Kevork (00:31:41):

Otherwise,

Kevork (00:31:42):

we should have witnessed some proper investigations going on addressing these

Kevork (00:31:49):

serious allegations.

Kevork (00:31:51):

So again, there are lots of dynamics and the fact that the current government justifies all

Kevork (00:32:00):

its actions either by

Kevork (00:32:04):

accusing the past regimes or accusing foreigners again draws a clear picture on

Kevork (00:32:12):

what's going on.

Kevork (00:32:14):

This is the main dilemma that we are dealing with.

Kevork (00:32:18):

On one hand, we are claiming that we are against foreign intervention

Kevork (00:32:24):

to our internal affairs,

Kevork (00:32:25):

while on the other hand,

Kevork (00:32:26):

we are seeking support from the European Union for the upcoming elections.

Kevork (00:32:33):

So again, we need to see all these developments within this political framework.

Kevork (00:32:40):

But I'm trying to stay in the legal field and analyze all these developments from

Kevork (00:32:46):

legal perspectives and not political perspectives.

Kevork (00:32:50):

Again, legally speaking,

Kevork (00:32:51):

all these accusations are baseless as long as there are no concrete evidence and

Kevork (00:33:00):

due processes where the rule of law is respected and the accused is given the

Kevork (00:33:06):

chance to defend themselves,

Kevork (00:33:08):

so on and so forth.

Kevork (00:33:09):

And I also agree with the timing that Asbed was mentioning at the very beginning.

Kevork (00:33:14):

All these rumors about internal affairs,

Kevork (00:33:19):

about the Catholicos fathered a child,

Kevork (00:33:23):

about others being involved in corruption,

Kevork (00:33:27):

so on and so forth.

Kevork (00:33:28):

All these rumors were all over the yellow media over the years.

Kevork (00:33:34):

What happened all of a sudden that it turned into a state priority?

Kevork (00:33:40):

Where were they?

Kevork (00:33:41):

Why they were not raising all these issues?

Kevork (00:33:45):

All the way up until Katholikos Karekin went to Switzerland and Pasha Zade started

Kevork (00:33:52):

making accusations and demands.

Kevork (00:33:57):

The timing is very, very important.

Kevork (00:34:00):

How all of a sudden, after one interview, a philanthropist can be detained?

Kevork (00:34:07):

Why they were not detaining him in advance?

Kevork (00:34:10):

I mean,

Kevork (00:34:12):

there are lots of questions that we can ask and discuss,

Kevork (00:34:16):

but let's stay within the legal arena.

Asbed (00:34:20):

I guess we can,

Asbed (00:34:21):

but when you were talking about yellow journalism,

Asbed (00:34:25):

when you put a yellow journalist as your prime minister,

Asbed (00:34:28):

I guess you get a trade rag for a country.

Asbed (00:34:30):

Sorry to editorialize a little bit,

Asbed (00:34:33):

but I did want to ask an important question following your explanation above.

Asbed (00:34:40):

Is this whole issue,

Asbed (00:34:41):

can we consider this whole issue about the church a red herring then trying to

Asbed (00:34:45):

obfuscate other more existential issues?

Asbed (00:34:49):

Because Hovig and I discussed this quite often.

Asbed (00:34:52):

Is this really an issue?

Asbed (00:34:54):

Is this a thing or not a thing?

Asbed (00:34:56):

But the issue is that we cannot ignore it because if we ignore it,

Asbed (00:34:59):

it'll be misinterpreted as apathy and it will be used against the church,

Asbed (00:35:04):

right?

Asbed (00:35:05):

So you have to have some kind of a response.

Kevork (00:35:09):

Yes, and the response is very straightforward,

Kevork (00:35:13):

and the response is to stand in solidarity and support with the Armenian Apostolic

Kevork (00:35:18):

Church,

Kevork (00:35:19):

even if we have some disagreements or demands from the church to reform itself,

Kevork (00:35:24):

to modernize itself,

Kevork (00:35:26):

so on and so forth.

Kevork (00:35:27):

Now we passed that stage.

Kevork (00:35:30):

And what I am saying is the following.

Kevork (00:35:33):

Considering the legal,

Kevork (00:35:35):

political and existential consequences of this attack and oppression against the

Kevork (00:35:41):

church,

Kevork (00:35:42):

every single one of us has a duty to stand in solidarity and support with the

Kevork (00:35:47):

church and to denounce all this

Kevork (00:35:53):

accusations and actions and like this is not the time to talk about others.

Kevork (00:36:01):

It is the time to stop this ongoing violations because we are talking about ongoing

Kevork (00:36:10):

violations and ongoing departure from rule of law.

Kevork (00:36:15):

This is not about a conflict between the church and state.

Kevork (00:36:20):

This is deeper than that.

Kevork (00:36:23):

This is a constitutional crisis.

Kevork (00:36:25):

This is a departure from the rule of law and someone and we as a nation,

Kevork (00:36:34):

we need to put an end to this catastrophic situation.

Hovik (00:36:40):

Yes, coming back to the law,

Hovik (00:36:42):

in fact criminal law,

Hovik (00:36:44):

your article alluded that the government uses the law selectively,

Hovik (00:36:50):

either to criminally prosecute outspoken critics,

Hovik (00:36:59):

give overwhelmingly long,

Hovik (00:37:04):

let's say, pretrial detention sentences,

Hovik (00:37:07):

and also fail to prosecute other crimes of the same magnitude or even worse crimes.

Hovik (00:37:13):

And we witnessed that in terms of some of the things that we mentioned,

Hovik (00:37:19):

such as the protection of excommunicated or defrocked bishops,

Hovik (00:37:26):

protection,

Hovik (00:37:27):

you know,

Hovik (00:37:29):

attempting to actually go into the church property to seize archbishops when

Hovik (00:37:35):

they're actually doing religious ceremonies and services.

Hovik (00:37:41):

Can you back this up,

Hovik (00:37:42):

though, with a little bit more evidence where there are cases,

Hovik (00:37:48):

could all of these actually be ordinary law enforcement?

Hovik (00:37:50):

Could, for instance, the prosecution of Archbishop Mikayel Ajapahyan be

Hovik (00:37:56):

considered legitimate because he said a few things that he shouldn't have.

Hovik (00:38:04):

What evidence can you provide to back up your assertion that this is selective prosecution or

Hovik (00:38:14):

lack of you know prosecution or you know i guess selective prosecution or and then

Hovik (00:38:19):

also in terms of the some of the pretrial detention some of the mechanisms used to

Hovik (00:38:24):

keep people in jail despite the lack of a verdict yet well i completely agree with

Kevork (00:38:33):

with your statements in terms of

Kevork (00:38:37):

discriminatory approach when it comes to the application of the criminal law.

Kevork (00:38:43):

And we can see that in several instances and how the prosecution

Kevork (00:38:52):

within a couple of hours even,

Kevork (00:38:57):

it seems that they have this obligation to show loyalty to the prime minister.

Kevork (00:39:07):

Every time the prime minister asks for something, they need to fulfill that

Kevork (00:39:12):

that demand or action,

Kevork (00:39:14):

even though it can be illegal or without proper evidence or without any legal

Kevork (00:39:21):

causation.

Kevork (00:39:23):

So we witnessed this and there are lots of other examples.

Kevork (00:39:27):

For example, the case of the pregnant woman who was killed by Pashinyan's convoy.

Kevork (00:39:35):

We saw what happened with that criminal proceeding.

Asbed (00:39:38):

That was Sona Mnatsakanyan.

Asbed (00:39:41):

Yes, yes.

Kevork (00:39:43):

So this is one very clear example on how the law was implemented.

Kevork (00:39:50):

Another example would be all these allegations of corruptions when it comes to

Kevork (00:39:57):

contracting with 30 vendors.

Kevork (00:40:00):

There are lots of accusations, but we haven't seen any criminal investigation.

Kevork (00:40:09):

for these rumors.

Kevork (00:40:11):

Another example would be the case of those soldiers who were burned in their station.

Kevork (00:40:24):

So there are lots of similar cases where we can discuss that the rule of law is not

Kevork (00:40:32):

implemented equally within the legal system.

Kevork (00:40:36):

And when it comes to criminal investigation,

Kevork (00:40:40):

we need to differentiate when there are allegations of misconduct.

Kevork (00:40:45):

that doesn't amount to criminal investigation when it comes to the clergy.

Kevork (00:40:51):

It's the duty and responsibility of the church to investigate and not the state.

Kevork (00:40:57):

The state intervenes only when there is a criminal investigation.

Kevork (00:41:03):

conduct, but not any misconduct.

Kevork (00:41:07):

So let's take the example of Archbishop Arshak,

Kevork (00:41:12):

and you saw what happened with him,

Kevork (00:41:16):

why they detained him.

Kevork (00:41:17):

Again, instead of

Kevork (00:41:19):

protecting him by promptly initiating a criminal investigation on how that video

Kevork (00:41:28):

was leaked or whether it was an AI video,

Kevork (00:41:31):

whether it was a montage,

Kevork (00:41:33):

so on and so forth.

Kevork (00:41:35):

They accused the Archbishop with something that is very, very ridiculous.

Kevork (00:41:42):

to say it bluntly, that happened a couple of years ago.

Kevork (00:41:46):

The same applies to... Seven years ago, yeah.

Kevork (00:41:49):

Yeah, seven years ago.

Kevork (00:41:51):

So these are examples of selective...

Kevork (00:41:56):

law application which is totally against how the rule of law should be applied

Kevork (00:42:09):

within any democratic and

Kevork (00:42:14):

modern state.

Kevork (00:42:15):

If you are claiming... Yeah.

Asbed (00:42:17):

Kevork,

Asbed (00:42:18):

a quick question about the sloppy forensics and the selective criminalization that

Asbed (00:42:24):

is going on.

Asbed (00:42:25):

What does that tell us about due process and how such cases would be invalidated

Asbed (00:42:30):

purely on technical basis,

Asbed (00:42:32):

let alone the fact that there is no crime there to investigate?

Kevork (00:42:36):

It means that we still have a very long way to go.

Kevork (00:42:40):

It shows that how fragile and un-independent the legal and the judiciary branch of

Kevork (00:42:49):

the Republic of Armenia is and how it is still dependent and influenced by

Kevork (00:42:55):

political agendas and political dynamics.

Kevork (00:42:59):

This is a very clear indication on the lack of independence and lack of maturity of

Kevork (00:43:06):

the judicial branch as a branch of the state.

Kevork (00:43:11):

And it doesn't mean that the clergy cannot be lawfully prosecuted when there is

Kevork (00:43:17):

genuine evidence of serious crimes.

Kevork (00:43:19):

But what we have been witnessing so far that without genuine evidence of serious

Kevork (00:43:24):

crimes,

Kevork (00:43:25):

people are being arrested.

Kevork (00:43:27):

detained, arrested, harassed, intimidated, so on and so forth.

Kevork (00:43:34):

These are unlawful, undemocratic, illegal actions that the state should not and must not adopt.

Asbed (00:43:48):

So in your article,

Asbed (00:43:49):

you note that Pashinyan's escalation of this whole matter is clearly tied to the

Asbed (00:43:55):

Bergen Conference on Artsakh heritage and rights,

Asbed (00:43:58):

followed by criticism from Azerbaijan's senior cleric.

Asbed (00:44:02):

The whole thing triggered a domestic campaign against the Catholicos.

Asbed (00:44:05):

You also note that advocacy for cultural heritage...

Asbed (00:44:09):

right of return and human rights claims is protected speech under the ICCPR and the

Asbed (00:44:14):

ECHR standards,

Asbed (00:44:16):

even when it conflicts with the government's diplomatic line,

Asbed (00:44:19):

right?

Asbed (00:44:20):

I read an interesting article also in the Mirror Spectator by Sergio Nahabetian.

Asbed (00:44:24):

This happened over the weekend.

Asbed (00:44:26):

He characterizes Pashinyan's motives even more bluntly.

Asbed (00:44:30):

He says, silencing the church as a powerful critic after the loss of Artsakh.

Asbed (00:44:34):

So everybody seems to be on the same page here.

Asbed (00:44:37):

And it clearly connects Pashinyan's church-state conflict,

Asbed (00:44:41):

not to his alleged so-called moral issues with the Catholicos,

Asbed (00:44:44):

but to regional pressure and narrative control.

Asbed (00:44:47):

What makes the timing of events and causality legally relevant?

Asbed (00:44:51):

And what alternative explanations should we test to avoid this kind of confirmation bias?

Kevork (00:44:58):

Well,

Kevork (00:44:59):

if it proves something,

Kevork (00:45:01):

it proves that all these are excuses to justify their illegal actions and to cover

Kevork (00:45:10):

up their main intentions.

Kevork (00:45:13):

And the timing, as I explained earlier on, is really, really very important because when

Kevork (00:45:23):

When there are public announcements made by Azeri authorities that are being echoed

Kevork (00:45:30):

by Armenian representatives

Kevork (00:45:33):

This shows clearly that there is a coordination among the parties to silence one of

Kevork (00:45:41):

the most influential non-state actors.

Kevork (00:45:44):

And legally speaking,

Kevork (00:45:47):

this weakens all their claims or all their justifications for the reasons that they

Kevork (00:45:56):

are taking these steps.

Kevork (00:45:58):

You see what I mean?

Kevork (00:46:00):

Because if you take out all these actions,

Kevork (00:46:04):

the recent developments,

Kevork (00:46:06):

and let's assume it happened 15 years ago,

Kevork (00:46:12):

the analysis would have been different.

Kevork (00:46:14):

Because back then the situation was different and the dynamics were different.

Kevork (00:46:19):

The geopolitical situation was different.

Kevork (00:46:22):

We didn't have Artsakh lost.

Kevork (00:46:23):

We didn't have for the first time in thousands of years,

Kevork (00:46:27):

the indigenous population of Artsakh forcibly displaced through genocidal acts of

Kevork (00:46:33):

blockade and forced displacement.

Kevork (00:46:36):

So we didn't have all this and we could have explained or somehow

Kevork (00:46:41):

understood all these actions, although, again, they are illegal and unlawful.

Kevork (00:46:48):

But the timing is extremely crucial to analyze and to legally undress.

Kevork (00:46:57):

if I can use this word, the motives behind these actions.

Kevork (00:47:03):

And the motivation is really very important when it comes to legal analysis and the intent.

Kevork (00:47:10):

So legally speaking, the intent is different from what it is being claimed to be.

Kevork (00:47:20):

The intent is to brush the Artsakh issue under the carpet,

Kevork (00:47:25):

to close that chapter,

Kevork (00:47:26):

to move on,

Kevork (00:47:28):

to subjugate the church,

Kevork (00:47:31):

to control the church,

Kevork (00:47:33):

to keep the political power

Kevork (00:47:37):

in the upcoming elections.

Kevork (00:47:39):

So these are the main motives behind all these actions.

Kevork (00:47:43):

It's not about reforming the church.

Kevork (00:47:45):

It's not about moral calls.

Kevork (00:47:50):

It's not about definitely being faithful to the Armenian church.

Kevork (00:47:58):

It's about all this geopolitical wider dynamics and aims.

Asbed (00:48:05):

Okay, earlier you mentioned that some of these processes,

Asbed (00:48:09):

legal processes by the detainees can be escalated all the way to the ECHR.

Asbed (00:48:14):

As a matter of fact, I believe that Archbishop Ajapahyan is applying to the ECHR.

Asbed (00:48:20):

Can you tell us what can be expected,

Asbed (00:48:22):

what kind of support could be expected from an international court at this point in

Asbed (00:48:27):

time? And I just wanna add that

Asbed (00:48:29):

I am concerned because while we are talking about legalistic issues here,

Asbed (00:48:34):

we are dealing with a government that's not interested in legality being legal or

Asbed (00:48:40):

even constitutional.

Asbed (00:48:42):

And they are supported, as a matter of fact, by Europe, Turkey, Azerbaijan.

Asbed (00:48:47):

So we can have courts say something, but if these governments that own the police

Asbed (00:48:53):

don't want to have anything to do with that, what kind of support could be expected?

Kevork (00:48:59):

Yes, politically, they might be supported.

Kevork (00:49:01):

And I agree with you.

Kevork (00:49:03):

Because for the European powers,

Kevork (00:49:06):

what matters is to neutralize the Russian influence and within the region and

Kevork (00:49:14):

whatever

Kevork (00:49:16):

supports that agenda, they will have no say in that.

Kevork (00:49:22):

And Pashinyan is convincing the European entities that whoever is against this

Kevork (00:49:31):

current government is a pro-Russian regime.

Kevork (00:49:36):

This is why we are not seeing politically

Kevork (00:49:39):

very anti-Pashinyan rhetoric within the European circles.

Kevork (00:49:44):

However, legally speaking, this is not the case.

Kevork (00:49:48):

And the proof of that is what we have achieved in front of the ICJ when it comes to

Kevork (00:49:57):

the Artsakh issue and ICJ's decision,

Kevork (00:50:00):

International Court of Justice's decision,

Kevork (00:50:02):

demanding the return of Artsakhtsis to their lands.

Kevork (00:50:06):

And this is also why the Armenian government is willing to withdraw

Kevork (00:50:12):

all of its international... Yeah, absolutely.

Kevork (00:50:16):

I was just going to mention that.

Kevork (00:50:18):

So these are all connected.

Kevork (00:50:20):

However, when it comes to the European Convention of Human Rights, there are some requirements.

Kevork (00:50:25):

And the first,

Kevork (00:50:26):

one of the most important requirements is to exhaust the local remedies before

Kevork (00:50:31):

applying in front of the European Court of Human Rights.

Kevork (00:50:35):

However, when certain

Kevork (00:50:37):

threats are imminent and there are certain circumstances where the court can adopt

Kevork (00:50:44):

interim measures requesting the state to take steps.

Kevork (00:50:47):

So one of the scenarios that I foresee is that after applying to the European Court

Kevork (00:50:53):

of Human Rights,

Kevork (00:50:54):

even though the local remedies are not exhausted yet,

Kevork (00:51:00):

the European Court of Human Rights can

Kevork (00:51:06):

can adopt an interim measure requesting the state of Armenia to take concrete steps

Kevork (00:51:12):

when it comes to all these detained clergy and other political prisoners.

Kevork (00:51:18):

Let's not forget,

Kevork (00:51:19):

it's not only half of the archbishops in Armenia who are detained now,

Kevork (00:51:23):

there are other

Kevork (00:51:24):

prisoners or detainees or folks under home arrest for political purposes and they

Kevork (00:51:32):

are political prisoners.

Kevork (00:51:34):

So we shouldn't forget or undermine the faith and the rights of all those who are

Kevork (00:51:41):

being prosecuted because of their opposition to the current government.

Hovik (00:51:47):

Kevork, this has been a very interesting discussion.

Hovik (00:51:51):

We talked about this government's various forms of overreach,

Hovik (00:51:58):

prosecution of the opposition,

Hovik (00:52:00):

persecution of the opposition,

Hovik (00:52:01):

persecution of the church,

Hovik (00:52:04):

and all of this,

Hovik (00:52:05):

I think, with the ultimate aim,

Hovik (00:52:07):

in my opinion,

Hovik (00:52:08):

to at least chiefly to satisfy external geopolitical

Hovik (00:52:15):

whether it's interests of the current government or demands or instructions given

Hovik (00:52:21):

to the current government.

Hovik (00:52:23):

By enemies.

Hovik (00:52:25):

By the enemies, of course.

Hovik (00:52:27):

And this also chiefly includes,

Hovik (00:52:31):

and we're seeing it in front of our eyes,

Hovik (00:52:33):

the re-architecture of the Armenian identity,

Hovik (00:52:37):

the splitting of Armenia from the diaspora,

Hovik (00:52:40):

All of these things are happening and it seems like at a pace that is difficult to

Hovik (00:52:47):

comprehend and even just document.

Hovik (00:52:49):

But I should also mention that according to, I know you said you don't believe them, but

Hovik (00:52:57):

in multiple polls agree that the Armenian church still has tremendous ratings in

Hovik (00:53:04):

Armenia and in fact one of the questions asked in the previous MPG poll that we

Hovik (00:53:11):

discussed on our podcast two or three episodes ago was you know who do you believe

Hovik (00:53:17):

would be capable of restoring solidarity and harmony in society after all of these

Hovik (00:53:29):

issues and conflicts.

Hovik (00:53:31):

And it was the number one,

Hovik (00:53:32):

it was the church,

Hovik (00:53:34):

and specifically it was,

Hovik (00:53:36):

I mean, it even ranked clergy.

Hovik (00:53:38):

I think number one was Mikayel Ajapahyan,

Hovik (00:53:40):

Archbishop Mikayel Ajapahyan,

Hovik (00:53:41):

and number two was Catholicos Garegin II.

Hovik (00:53:46):

With all of that,

Hovik (00:53:47):

I just want to ask you,

Hovik (00:53:49):

what is a clean off-ramp do you see from this crisis that restores trust and

Hovik (00:53:55):

solidarity within the society and ensures that blanket impunity is not granted to

Hovik (00:54:02):

anyone like we're seeing today?

Asbed (00:54:08):

That's a tough one, isn't it?

Kevork (00:54:10):

It's a very tough one.

Kevork (00:54:11):

And to be honest with you,

Kevork (00:54:14):

knowing the system in Armenia and knowing how the elections can be defraud and

Kevork (00:54:26):

knowing all the past elections,

Kevork (00:54:29):

I cannot say the election would be the only...

Kevork (00:54:35):

way moving forward.

Kevork (00:54:37):

But I also trust on the wisdom of the Armenian people.

Kevork (00:54:44):

I wonder when the awakening will take place, because I still feel that we are not

Kevork (00:54:57):

We are not realizing as a whole, as a big society, the existential threats that we are facing.

Kevork (00:55:09):

I think one of the few steps that we can take is to solidify all the opposition

Kevork (00:55:16):

powers around common ground,

Kevork (00:55:19):

around couple of national priorities.

Kevork (00:55:23):

And that is something doable.

Kevork (00:55:26):

And having an interim leadership with credibility and with trust among the public

Kevork (00:55:33):

both from the homeland and diaspora,

Kevork (00:55:36):

to facilitate a transition from this divided and polarized reality,

Kevork (00:55:45):

internally speaking,

Kevork (00:55:46):

to a more harmonized and united in diversity.

Kevork (00:55:53):

I'm not saying

Kevork (00:55:54):

that we need everyone should think the same way everyone should believe in the same

Kevork (00:55:58):

things I'm saying we can be united in our diverse political social perspectives

Kevork (00:56:08):

and we can

Kevork (00:56:10):

find common ground by prioritizing our main pan-Armenian national interests,

Kevork (00:56:20):

by prioritizing that no matter what,

Kevork (00:56:24):

our pan-Armenian institutions,

Kevork (00:56:26):

including the Armenian Apostolic Church,

Kevork (00:56:29):

cannot be

Kevork (00:56:30):

delegitimized,

Kevork (00:56:31):

cannot be silenced up,

Kevork (00:56:33):

should not be prosecuted,

Kevork (00:56:35):

should not be under attack because of doing the right thing at the right moment of

Kevork (00:56:40):

the history.

Hovik (00:56:42):

Those are powerful words, Kevork.

Hovik (00:56:44):

And I think that's a good spot to end our podcast on a more positive note.

Hovik (00:56:50):

So let's leave it here for today.

Hovik (00:56:54):

Thank you, Kevork. Thank you, Dr. Hakobjian.

Hovik (00:56:56):

And we hope to have you back again in the future to discuss issues of your competence.

Asbed (00:57:01):

Thank you, Kevork.

Kevork (00:57:02):

Thank you very much.

Kevork (00:57:03):

Thank you.

Kevork (00:57:04):

Thank you, Aspet. Thank you, Obi.

Kevork (00:57:05):

Pleasure meeting you.

Asbed (00:57:08):

Okay, Hovik, that's our show today.

Asbed (00:57:10):

This episode was recorded on January 12, 2026.

Asbed (00:57:14):

And we've been talking with

Asbed (00:57:16):

Dr. Kevork Hagopjian,

Asbed (00:57:17):

who is an attorney and human rights advocate with expertise in international law,

Asbed (00:57:22):

minority rights,

Asbed (00:57:23):

civil litigation,

Asbed (00:57:24):

community engagement.

Asbed (00:57:25):

I urge all of our listeners to go to our show notes, podcasts.groong.org/episode-number.

Asbed (00:57:32):

Check him out and you can check everything else out because we will put some notes in there.

Hovik (00:57:39):

Thank you, folks, for staying with us.

Hovik (00:57:41):

And don't forget to make sure that you're subscribed.

Hovik (00:57:44):

Don't forget to LIKE,

Hovik (00:57:45):

COMMENT, and SHARE our podcast on all the platforms that you're active on and help us gain a

Hovik (00:57:51):

little boost.

Hovik (00:57:52):

And also donate to us if you can, podcasts.groong.org/donate.

Hovik (00:58:00):

and you know i'm trying to think of what we can do to make it more um to

Hovik (00:58:07):

increase the likelihood of donations I think that maybe you

Hovik (00:58:12):

can tell us in the comments like if you want me to eat harissa on live air I don't

Hovik (00:58:17):

know maybe I can do that and and get some Harissa Humanitarian points or

Hovik (00:58:23):

aspect maybe like you know.

Hovik (00:58:25):

I don't know.

Hovik (00:58:26):

I don't like the lahmajun in Yerevan.

Hovik (00:58:27):

So if you have to eat lahmajun, then it's going to be us there.

Hovik (00:58:30):

You have to be here.

Asbed (00:58:31):

Actually, the best lahmajun I've had is in Beirut, Hovik.

Hovik (00:58:35):

Well, I don't know about Beirut, but in L.A., I would strongly recommend Old Sassoon Bakery.

Hovik (00:58:42):

But while you're eating your yummy lahmajun,

Hovik (00:58:44):

go to podcasts.groong.org and send us some yummy donations.

Hovik (00:58:49):

Thank you very much.

Hovik (00:58:52):

And I am Hovik Manucharyan from Occupied Yerevan.

Hovik (00:58:56):

And I'm Asbed Bedrossian in Glendale, California.

Asbed (00:59:00):

We'll talk to you soon, folks.

Hovik (00:59:01):

Have a great day and have a great week.

Head Shot

Asbed Bedrossian

Co-host
Head Shot

Hovik Manucharyan

Co-host
Head Shot

Kevork Hagopjian

Guest

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