Armenian News Network - Groong: Week In Review Podcast

Anna Grigoryan - Armenia’s Political Crisis | Ep 507, Jan 17, 2026

• Armenian News Network / Groong • Episode 507

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Conversations on Groong - January 17, 2026

Topics:

  • Return of Four Hostages
  • Pashinyan vs. Church
  • TRIPP
  • Armenia Parliamentary Election

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Hosts

Episode 507 | Recorded: January 16, 2026

SHOW NOTES: https://podcasts.groong.org/507

VIDEO:  https://youtu.be/b-qrlL7z6UY 

#AnnaGrigoryan #Armenia #ArmenianPolitics #TRIPP #ArmenianChurch #POWs


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Asbed (00:00:04):

Hello, everyone, and welcome to this Conversations on Groong episode.

Asbed (00:00:07):

Today, we're going to discuss issues in the domestic political life of Armenia.

Asbed (00:00:12):

And for this, we are joined by Anna Gregorian,

Asbed (00:00:15):

who is a member of the Armenian parliament with the parliamentary opposition force

Asbed (00:00:19):

Hayastan Dashinq.

Asbed (00:00:21):

Anna Gregorian, welcome back to the Groong podcast.

Anna (00:00:25):

Thank you so much for having me.

Anna (00:00:27):

It is my great pleasure to be with you today.

Anna (00:00:30):

And I also want to welcome your audience.

Anna (00:00:34):

Hopefully we're going to have an interesting conversation today.

Asbed (00:00:37):

We've only talked to you during one of our Twitter live shows between the end of

Asbed (00:00:42):

the 44 day war and the 2021 June elections.

Asbed (00:00:46):

So this is actually the first time that you are on the show kind of in a formal way.

Asbed (00:00:50):

Would you tell us a little bit about yourself?

Asbed (00:00:53):

What keeps you busy?

Asbed (00:00:54):

And also what keeps you awake at night?

Asbed (00:00:57):

What worries keep you awake?

Anna (00:00:59):

oh if I start talking about the worries I have today so we're going to talk for

Anna (00:01:05):

three days, but anyway, well first of all yes, you already presented me I'm a member

Anna (00:01:10):

of opposition faction Armenia Bloc I'm also in the committee of security and

Anna (00:01:15):

defense which means that my main focus is on the security environment of Armenia

Anna (00:01:21):

and because I come from Syunik region which is the most vulnerable part of

Anna (00:01:25):

Armenia after the war and after the annexation of

Anna (00:01:28):

Artsakh and Syunik has a lot of security issues.

Anna (00:01:32):

So my main focus is mainly on security issues around Armenia, in Armenia.

Anna (00:01:40):

So I come from Syunik region,

Anna (00:01:43):

security,

Anna (00:01:44):

foreign affairs,

Anna (00:01:46):

again,

Anna (00:01:47):

anything that could be done to topple this regime in Armenia.

Hovik (00:01:52):

Ms. Grigoryan

Hovik (00:01:53):

as many were predicting,

Hovik (00:01:55):

and as the election season is now in full swing,

Hovik (00:01:58):

four Armenians,

Hovik (00:02:00):

civilians, held in Baku,

Hovik (00:02:02):

were released and returned home yesterday.

Hovik (00:02:04):

I believe, yes, that was yesterday or two days ago.

Hovik (00:02:09):

In any case,

Hovik (00:02:10):

we are relieved for their families,

Hovik (00:02:11):

of course,

Hovik (00:02:12):

but the larger issue remains that we have 19 more Armenians still in Azerbaijani

Hovik (00:02:17):

custody.

Hovik (00:02:18):

Many pushed through harsh political court proceedings.

Hovik (00:02:23):

One can only imagine the torment that they're going through.

Hovik (00:02:26):

Human rights groups have also raised concerns about the terms of the exchange.

Hovik (00:02:30):

For instance, four civilians were exchanged in return for two Syrian mercenaries.

Hovik (00:02:36):

In fact, of course, the Pashinyan regime will not admit that this is an exchange, but

Hovik (00:02:42):

It's a great coincidence that it happened on the same day.

Hovik (00:02:45):

In addition to all of this,

Hovik (00:02:46):

Christian Solidarity International says that this is the clearest proof that these

Hovik (00:02:51):

people are being used as hostages and that any peace process conducted while

Hovik (00:02:56):

hostages remain in detention takes place under pressure.

Hovik (00:03:01):

So we wanted to ask for your thoughts.

Hovik (00:03:04):

How do you assess this move?

Hovik (00:03:07):

that happened yesterday or two days ago for Armenia and the region?

Anna (00:03:12):

First of all, perhaps it was the best news we could hear during the last several months.

Anna (00:03:20):

And the release and the life of every Armenian is so precious for us.

Anna (00:03:25):

So it was great news.

Anna (00:03:26):

And they are mostly welcomed to Armenia.

Anna (00:03:30):

At the same time,

Anna (00:03:31):

We understand that it was a kind of a bargain between Pashinyan and Aliyev,

Anna (00:03:35):

and they are working together.

Anna (00:03:36):

Before the elections, Aliyev tries to strengthen Pashinyan's position in Armenia.

Anna (00:03:42):

knowing very well that he does not have enough support to get re-elected.

Anna (00:03:46):

So Aliyev is trying to take the symbolic steps to make Pashinyan's position stronger in Armenia.

Anna (00:03:53):

So he was doing it during the last few months.

Anna (00:03:55):

He was doing it through this petrol process,

Anna (00:03:59):

selling petrol to Armenia,

Anna (00:04:02):

selling this wheat to Armenia.

Anna (00:04:04):

for animals.

Anna (00:04:05):

And again, unfortunately, human lives became part of this bargain between Aliyev and Pashinyan.

Anna (00:04:13):

But generally,

Anna (00:04:14):

we understand that the peace process,

Anna (00:04:17):

we're talking about real peace,

Anna (00:04:19):

can never be reached without

Anna (00:04:22):

solving the humanitarian issues between two countries.

Anna (00:04:25):

It's,

Anna (00:04:26):

of course, absurd to talk about real peace while our compatriots are in Baku being tortured

Anna (00:04:32):

there.

Anna (00:04:34):

And the closer we get to election day, we anticipate certain actions by Aliyev.

Anna (00:04:42):

Perhaps more hostages could come to Armenia, even though I anticipate that Ruben Vardanyan

Anna (00:04:50):

and political military elite of Artsakh are highly unlikely to get back to Armenia because

Anna (00:04:57):

Pashinyan would never let Vartanyan and others to come to Armenia, right?

Anna (00:05:03):

But I want to remind just our audience that during these years,

Anna (00:05:08):

and I will start with a campaign in 2021.

Anna (00:05:11):

Do you remember that before the election,

Anna (00:05:13):

again,

Anna (00:05:14):

Aliyev released several hostages,

Anna (00:05:17):

several prisoners of war.

Anna (00:05:18):

It was just before the election.

Anna (00:05:20):

And we see the repetition of the same scenario.

Anna (00:05:23):

It worked then, and they hope that it's going to work today.

Anna (00:05:27):

And I remember a very shameful speech by Pashinyan during his campaign when he said

Anna (00:05:33):

that our compatriots in Baku can wait for three more months.

Anna (00:05:38):

And they're in Baku for already five years.

Anna (00:05:41):

And they're being released right before the election process.

Anna (00:05:46):

As I say, this is just not humanitarian issue.

Anna (00:05:48):

This is pure political, inter-political issue.

Anna (00:05:51):

So yes, Aliyev has certain cards to work with the Armenian society.

Anna (00:05:57):

with the emotions, how to deal with the emotions of Armenian society.

Anna (00:06:02):

This is shameful to accept,

Anna (00:06:03):

of course,

Anna (00:06:04):

that foreign actors,

Anna (00:06:06):

especially hostile to our country,

Anna (00:06:08):

they think who is the most preferable one for them.

Anna (00:06:11):

Even Fidan,

Anna (00:06:13):

the foreign minister of Turkey,

Anna (00:06:14):

yesterday,

Anna (00:06:15):

he cited that they're supporting Pashinyan.

Anna (00:06:18):

They're supporting Pashinyan's policy concerning the region.

Anna (00:06:23):

So this is something we could anticipate because we know how Aliyev and Pashinyan

Anna (00:06:28):

work together,

Anna (00:06:29):

how Aliyev is going to make the symbolic steps,

Anna (00:06:34):

but generally of course we

Anna (00:06:37):

We were very happy to hear this news and we were very happy.

Anna (00:06:42):

At the same time, you touched upon the issue that there was an exchange.

Anna (00:06:47):

So two criminals, Syrian terrorists were given to Syria via Turkey.

Anna (00:06:56):

In response, we get our compatriots.

Anna (00:06:58):

However, officially, Pashinyan said otherwise.

Anna (00:07:01):

He said, please do not connect one with another.

Anna (00:07:05):

But it's obvious that the very day our compatriots came to Armenia,

Anna (00:07:10):

these criminals and terrorists were given to Syria by a Turkic king.

Anna (00:07:14):

So it's impossible not to connect these two events.

Anna (00:07:17):

And I want to remind you that we had the same cases.

Anna (00:07:21):

Do you remember that there was a provision in the trilateral statement of November

Anna (00:07:27):

9,

Anna (00:07:28):

which clearly stated that all prisoners of war

Anna (00:07:32):

have to be given to the other side.

Anna (00:07:35):

So Armenia gave every single Azerbaijani prisoner of war we had, this government.

Anna (00:07:42):

But unfortunately, we couldn't get everyone.

Anna (00:07:45):

And during these years, even we had more hostages that appeared in Baku.

Anna (00:07:50):

There were also maps of mines in the territories of Nagorno-Karabakh.

Anna (00:07:56):

They were given to Azerbaijan.

Anna (00:07:59):

But unfortunately, not again everyone came to Armenia from our compatriots.

Anna (00:08:04):

And you know, I believe that this humanitarian issue could have been solved in Washington before

Anna (00:08:11):

they initialed the document,

Anna (00:08:14):

which is called Peace Treaty.

Asbed (00:08:16):

And that was in August, I believe, right?

Asbed (00:08:18):

You're talking about the August 8th meeting.

Anna (00:08:21):

This is a humanitarian issue, Asbed.

Anna (00:08:23):

This is a humanitarian issue.

Anna (00:08:25):

So this administration,

Anna (00:08:26):

I mean,

Anna (00:08:27):

Trump's administration,

Anna (00:08:29):

they're talking about Christianity,

Anna (00:08:31):

they're talking about these issues.

Anna (00:08:33):

And I see that when it comes to the issue of Israel and Gaza,

Anna (00:08:39):

this issue of prisoners becomes one of the main issues of discussions.

Anna (00:08:45):

But unfortunately,

Anna (00:08:46):

when this government,

Anna (00:08:47):

when Pashinyan with his team went to Washington,

Anna (00:08:50):

this question,

Anna (00:08:51):

this issue of prisoners of war was not put on the table.

Anna (00:08:55):

This is just absurd because,

Anna (00:08:57):

again,

Anna (00:08:58):

there is no single case in the world in the history that would show that it is

Anna (00:09:03):

possible to establish peace between two countries while there are prisoners of war.

Anna (00:09:09):

There are hostages being held and tortured in prisons.

Asbed (00:09:15):

And it was even more shocking for us because it wasn't just that the topic of this

Asbed (00:09:20):

humanitarian topic was not on the table.

Asbed (00:09:23):

I believe at the end, President Trump proposed, don't you want your Christian fellows back?

Asbed (00:09:28):

And Pashinyan basically signaled he didn't want them back or he didn't want that

Asbed (00:09:33):

issue to,

Asbed (00:09:34):

what was it that he said?

Asbed (00:09:35):

He didn't want it to block the peace process.

Asbed (00:09:38):

So to him, it's clearly this is not an issue really for him.

Anna (00:09:42):

It's not an issue. They even do not try to make it a big secret out of it.

Anna (00:09:46):

They say it's not our agenda.

Anna (00:09:48):

You do remember Alain Simonian once, he didn't know he was being recorded.

Anna (00:09:54):

There was a video of him saying that we already forgot about prisoners of war.

Anna (00:09:58):

So this is the reality we have today.

Anna (00:10:01):

But it is, of course, shameful for us.

Anna (00:10:03):

One of the members,

Anna (00:10:04):

one of the previous members of the civil contract,

Anna (00:10:07):

Hovik Aghazaryan,

Anna (00:10:09):

when he went out of the faction,

Anna (00:10:11):

He told a story about one of the meetings they had with Pashinyan and Ararat Mirzoyan.

Anna (00:10:17):

And there was a discussion between Pashinyan and he was talking that he heard a

Anna (00:10:22):

discussion that Ararat Mirzoyan told them,

Anna (00:10:24):

a dialogue between Pashinyan and Aliyev.

Anna (00:10:27):

And Aliyev asked Pashinyan, why don't you want to return Ruben Vartanian?

Anna (00:10:34):

So even the question itself proves that Pashinyan doesn't want to see Ruben

Anna (00:10:40):

Vartanyan and others in Armenia.

Anna (00:10:43):

So the only thing he cares about is his position, is to how to maintain power in Armenia.

Anna (00:10:51):

So this is the only thing he cares about.

Anna (00:10:53):

He doesn't even care that people having the same passport as I do and my

Anna (00:10:57):

compatriots do,

Anna (00:10:58):

they're tortured there.

Anna (00:11:00):

And there are so many facts about these tortures.

Anna (00:11:04):

And it is really shameful for every single Armenian,

Anna (00:11:08):

politicians,

Anna (00:11:09):

doctors, teachers,

Anna (00:11:10):

to realize that their compatriots,

Anna (00:11:13):

the same people from the same nation are tortured there while Pashinyan and his

Anna (00:11:18):

regime

Anna (00:11:19):

are talking about shows,

Anna (00:11:20):

are making shows,

Anna (00:11:22):

and forgetting,

Anna (00:11:23):

and officially forgetting about this main humanitarian issue we have here.

Asbed (00:11:29):

I want to talk a little bit about this Pashinyan versus church issue,

Asbed (00:11:32):

because we've been regularly covering Pashinyan's attacks on the Armenian church,

Asbed (00:11:37):

and we have shown that in reality,

Asbed (00:11:39):

this is not a campaign of Pashinyan against Catholicos Karekin II for some alleged

Asbed (00:11:44):

moral or procedural shortcomings,

Asbed (00:11:46):

but this is actually a war by Pashinyan and his state machinery against the

Asbed (00:11:51):

Armenian Apostolic Church.

Asbed (00:11:53):

Our previous guests have frequently talked about this being an externally directed

Asbed (00:11:58):

campaign to silence our church from standing up for Armenian rights and remain the

Asbed (00:12:02):

spiritual leader of all Armenians,

Asbed (00:12:04):

and of course that includes me here in the diaspora.

Asbed (00:12:08):

And he wants to turn it into an administrative tool,

Asbed (00:12:11):

the way that he has destroyed the independence of the Armenian judiciary,

Asbed (00:12:15):

the police,

Asbed (00:12:16):

and the state-controlled media.

Asbed (00:12:18):

So we want to know your thoughts.

Asbed (00:12:20):

What is Pashinyan's motivation in all of this?

Asbed (00:12:23):

Do you believe it is driven by geopolitical calculations or personal vendetta?

Anna (00:12:28):

I absolutely agree with you that this is anything but not moral campaign against

Anna (00:12:35):

the Catholicos.

Anna (00:12:36):

It has nothing to do with morality.

Anna (00:12:38):

It has nothing to do with theology, right?

Anna (00:12:41):

It is purely non-constitutional, illegal, and an agenda.

Anna (00:12:47):

This is an agenda that has been imposed on Pashinyan.

Anna (00:12:51):

This agenda could never be formed within Armenia, even a person like Pashinyan.

Anna (00:12:58):

couldn't form this agenda.

Anna (00:12:59):

This is something Azerbaijan and Turkey has always thrived for.

Anna (00:13:03):

It is their agenda, which is being implemented with the hands of Nikol Pashinyan.

Anna (00:13:09):

Unfortunately, I'm very sorry to fix this, but this is the reality we have.

Anna (00:13:16):

This issue, of course, has a legal aspect.

Anna (00:13:19):

So church and the government are separated by constitution.

Anna (00:13:23):

And we see that there is a direct interference into the issues of the church,

Anna (00:13:30):

which is non-constitutional.

Anna (00:13:32):

And if we had real law enforcement mechanisms in Armenia,

Anna (00:13:37):

then we would see that there is a process,

Anna (00:13:39):

constitutional process,

Anna (00:13:40):

legal process against Pashinyan.

Anna (00:13:42):

But we would never see that because the whole country, all institutions obey Pashinyan.

Anna (00:13:49):

This is the reality we have.

Anna (00:13:52):

And,

Anna (00:13:53):

you know,

Anna (00:13:54):

what was very ridiculous,

Anna (00:13:56):

when Pashinyan started this attack,

Anna (00:13:59):

he said that I do it because there are gossips that Catholicos has a daughter.

Anna (00:14:07):

After that, he formed a committee, members of who are very well known,

Anna (00:14:14):

of having their children.

Anna (00:14:15):

One of them,

Anna (00:14:16):

I mean, the child,

Anna (00:14:18):

the son of one of those clergies used to work in his government in different

Anna (00:14:24):

positions.

Hovik (00:14:25):

And most notoriously as the head of the NSS.

Anna (00:14:29):

Yes, absolutely.

Anna (00:14:31):

So it is so ridiculous to hear his facts, these arguments and rings.

Anna (00:14:39):

They cannot be true.

Anna (00:14:41):

From the moral point of view, he has nothing to do with this issue.

Anna (00:14:47):

I want to remind our audience when the process started.

Anna (00:14:51):

It started after Catholicos made his famous speech in Switzerland.

Anna (00:14:57):

concerning the collective right of return of people of Nagorno-Karabakh.

Anna (00:15:03):

He spoke about the release and immediate release of our hostages from Baku.

Anna (00:15:08):

And right after that,

Anna (00:15:10):

you remember there were negotiations between Armenia and Azerbaijan,

Anna (00:15:14):

the treaty was not still initialed.

Anna (00:15:16):

And after that speech, literally the next day, Pashinyan started his campaign.

Anna (00:15:22):

Literally, after that, he started the campaign.

Anna (00:15:25):

He had no problem with the church.

Anna (00:15:26):

He had no problem with Catholicos for seven years, for eight years of his tenure.

Anna (00:15:32):

But right after that speech,

Anna (00:15:33):

because Aliyev didn't like it,

Anna (00:15:35):

he started this immoral attack,

Anna (00:15:38):

this immoral campaign against the church.

Asbed (00:15:41):

Well, it was,

Asbed (00:15:42):

I believe, also Allahshukur Pashazadeh who labeled the Catholicos and the church terrorists,

Asbed (00:15:48):

basically.

Anna (00:15:49):

Yes, yes, absolutely.

Asbed (00:15:51):

And that was a signal immediately to Pashinyan to get in gear and start attacking the church.

Anna (00:15:57):

Yes, and we have been discussing this issue a lot.

Anna (00:16:00):

So what he gains out of it?

Anna (00:16:02):

I mean, in the electoral meaning.

Anna (00:16:05):

So he doesn't have the support of the population.

Anna (00:16:08):

He doesn't have the support.

Anna (00:16:10):

So people do not understand why he is doing it.

Anna (00:16:13):

They only...

Anna (00:16:14):

The only rational explanation to his actions is that this is the agenda that was

Anna (00:16:20):

formed out of our country and was imposed on Pashinyan.

Anna (00:16:24):

Overall, church is not only a religious center for Armenians.

Anna (00:16:29):

It's also a worldwide network that preserves our identity.

Anna (00:16:35):

So everywhere where we have church, Armenian identity is preserved.

Anna (00:16:40):

Armenian community is consolidated in these regions, right?

Anna (00:16:44):

In the USA, in Russia, in Iran, we are consolidated around the church.

Anna (00:16:50):

And this is the network that maintains our identity, that prompts our national interests, right?

Anna (00:16:57):

And you were right saying that our Catholicos is not only Catholicos,

Anna (00:17:04):

of only the people living within this territory of Republic of Armenia.

Anna (00:17:09):

He's Catholicos of all Armenians,

Anna (00:17:12):

including people from Nagorno-Karabakh,

Anna (00:17:14):

and who but not him can raise the question of the return of their right of return

Anna (00:17:21):

to their homeland.

Anna (00:17:23):

So simply,

Anna (00:17:25):

Parsanyal wants to have a person that obeys him,

Anna (00:17:30):

that works within this agenda of real Armenia.

Anna (00:17:35):

So it is Armenia only for Armenians living within the territory of Republic of Armenia.

Anna (00:17:42):

And so it doesn't have this network worldwide that can help to preserve our identity.

Asbed (00:17:50):

Yeah.

Asbed (00:17:51):

All of what you are saying

Asbed (00:17:53):

leads us to believe that there is a deep meddling in the church by Pashinyan.

Asbed (00:17:58):

And we have talked to legal experts about Pashinyan's actions,

Asbed (00:18:01):

and there's no doubt that they are not only illegal,

Asbed (00:18:04):

but they are unconstitutional.

Asbed (00:18:07):

And we are referring to Pashinyan's personal as well as the NSS and the police

Asbed (00:18:13):

institutional meddling that's enabling renegade clergy and blocking the

Asbed (00:18:17):

Catholicos and clergy loyal to him,

Asbed (00:18:19):

confiscating and barricading churches,

Asbed (00:18:22):

protecting defrocked clergy,

Asbed (00:18:24):

forcing. I mean, we can go on and on.

Asbed (00:18:27):

The question that I have for you, since you are a parliamentarian,

Asbed (00:18:30):

Why has the opposition not moved to impeach a prime minister who is illegal and

Asbed (00:18:37):

unconstitutional?

Asbed (00:18:38):

At least why haven't you applied to the constitutional court to ask for a statement?

Asbed (00:18:43):

Is the prime minister unconstitutional in his actions?

Anna (00:18:49):

Well, Pashinyan's actions, there were many cases when his actions were unconstitutional.

Anna (00:18:56):

This case with the church is the most vivid one.

Anna (00:18:59):

However, there have been a lot of cases of his non constitutional actions.

Anna (00:19:04):

So, um,

Anna (00:19:05):

there, well,

Anna (00:19:06):

if you asked me whether there are legal basis to start the process of the

Anna (00:19:09):

impeachment against Washington,

Anna (00:19:10):

I would say,

Anna (00:19:11):

obviously, yes.

Anna (00:19:13):

Is it possible taking the current realism we have in the parliament?

Anna (00:19:18):

So there are 70 members of the ruling party,

Anna (00:19:21):

and if they don't join the process,

Anna (00:19:25):

so we're not going to succeed.

Anna (00:19:27):

So unfortunately,

Anna (00:19:29):

the number of parliamentarians from the ruling party is so big,

Anna (00:19:33):

and we are only 34 in the parliament.

Anna (00:19:37):

With the 44 opposition members of the parliament,

Anna (00:19:42):

We cannot succeed in the process of impeachment.

Anna (00:19:45):

And we see that there are not 70 different people.

Anna (00:19:49):

There is only one Nikol Pashinyan sitting here.

Anna (00:19:51):

We do not view them as personalities,

Anna (00:19:54):

having their principles,

Anna (00:19:56):

having their viewpoints and way of thinking.

Anna (00:19:59):

There is one Pashinyan and he imposes his will on all those 70 people.

Anna (00:20:06):

members in the parliament.

Anna (00:20:07):

Unfortunately, this is the reality we face today.

Hovik (00:20:10):

One Pashinyan and 70 backpacks.

Anna (00:20:12):

Yes, absolutely.

Anna (00:20:14):

They called themselves a backpack.

Anna (00:20:16):

This is not us to label them.

Anna (00:20:19):

They called themselves backpacks.

Anna (00:20:20):

So in reality, we didn't manage to do that.

Anna (00:20:25):

You know, there is a action plan of the government that is adopted by the parliament, which is

Anna (00:20:30):

the main document of the government,

Anna (00:20:32):

where they're talking about the de-occupation of Shushi and Hadrut.

Anna (00:20:37):

They're talking about the peaceful process.

Anna (00:20:41):

They're talking about solving the issue of Nagorno-Karabakh through a means group

Anna (00:20:46):

called chairmanship,

Anna (00:20:47):

right,

Anna (00:20:48):

based on the people's right of self-determination.

Anna (00:20:51):

So they already claimed that they recognized Artsakh as part of Azerbaijan.

Anna (00:20:58):

So this is

Anna (00:21:00):

a blatant violation of their action plan.

Anna (00:21:05):

So, I mean, there are a lot of things we can say.

Anna (00:21:07):

This is non-constitutional.

Anna (00:21:09):

We can say this was, again, I mean, there are bases for impeachment.

Anna (00:21:13):

But do we have enough votes within the parliament to start and succeed?

Anna (00:21:19):

Unfortunately, no.

Anna (00:21:22):

We don't even have enough votes to launch the process.

Anna (00:21:27):

To launch the process, we need 36 members of parliament.

Anna (00:21:31):

The opposition today is 34.

Asbed (00:21:33):

Does that include the two parliamentarians who have defected from civil contract?

Asbed (00:21:38):

No?

Anna (00:21:42):

No, we are 34 from the Armenian bloc and the other man.

Anna (00:21:48):

They didn't want to join this process of impeachment.

Anna (00:21:51):

They declared so.

Asbed (00:22:00):

So the impeachment process, of course, is a political process.

Asbed (00:22:03):

Do you also need the same number of people,

Asbed (00:22:06):

36, to apply to the constitutional court to ask for a statement or an opinion on

Asbed (00:22:12):

whether these actions are unconstitutional?

Hovik (00:22:15):

Just to add to that,

Hovik (00:22:17):

is that only for legislative items,

Hovik (00:22:20):

or you can apply for any action of the prime minister?

Hovik (00:22:25):

I believe that may apply only for legislative issues.

Anna (00:22:28):

What do you mean for legislative issues?

Asbed (00:22:30):

The application to the courts, you mean, Hovik?

Hovik (00:22:32):

Yeah,

Hovik (00:22:33):

if you want to apply to the constitutional court,

Hovik (00:22:36):

you can only do that for items on the agenda of the parliament,

Hovik (00:22:40):

or can you apply for any action of the prime minister?

Anna (00:22:44):

No, it is usually concerning the laws.

Anna (00:22:46):

Laws that are adopted.

Anna (00:22:49):

There are a lot of laws we applied to constitutional court telling us whether you

Anna (00:22:55):

think they are constitutional or not.

Anna (00:22:56):

So concerning the laws, yes, we did it a lot of times.

Anna (00:23:00):

There are a lot of processes concerning this, but I'm not sure.

Anna (00:23:04):

I mean,

Anna (00:23:05):

I can't remember a case where we apply to the constitutional court asking to make

Anna (00:23:13):

an expo,

Anna (00:23:14):

I mean, to analyze the actions of the prime minister.

Hovik (00:23:18):

Okay.

Anna (00:23:19):

But even if we did so, the Constitutional Court has been changed in compliance with his taste.

Anna (00:23:32):

There are people of Pashinyan sitting there, you know.

Anna (00:23:36):

that it hasn't changed.

Asbed (00:23:37):

Yeah, I agree with you.

Asbed (00:23:38):

I don't expect that they would say something against Pashinyan.

Asbed (00:23:41):

But, you know, for me, I'm a little idealistic here.

Asbed (00:23:45):

Let them be on the record and let history judge them for what they are doing

Asbed (00:23:49):

instead of just getting a pass,

Asbed (00:23:52):

silently being acquiescent with Pashinyan's activities.

Asbed (00:23:57):

And as far as Hovik,

Asbed (00:23:59):

As far as legislative,

Asbed (00:24:00):

legal, whatever,

Asbed (00:24:01):

and stuff like that, Pashinyan is using the police and the Secret Service to do his bidding.

Asbed (00:24:06):

Is that not government?

Hovik (00:24:07):

The issue is not what-about-ism.

Hovik (00:24:10):

The issue is,

Hovik (00:24:12):

with all due respect, the issue is about the Constitutional Court would not even accept the referral if

Hovik (00:24:17):

it's not related to things that are prescribed in Armenian law.

Hovik (00:24:21):

I don't think that the issue of...

Hovik (00:24:25):

complaining to the Constitutional Court about Pashinyan's activities that are

Hovik (00:24:29):

outside of the purview of the Parliament would be accepted.

Hovik (00:24:32):

Okay, not complaining, but asking them to be on the record.

Anna (00:24:37):

But let me move on.

Anna (00:24:39):

Yes, but if we are talking about these procedures,

Anna (00:24:42):

then we presume that we're living in a constitutional country.

Anna (00:24:45):

We're living in a country where laws work.

Anna (00:24:47):

Unfortunately, it's not true.

Anna (00:24:49):

the only fact that we have four archbishops in the prisons today and yesterday I

Anna (00:24:55):

met our bishop Mikayel and Bagrat I mean even this fact the existence of the fact

Anna (00:25:02):

of having four archbishops in prisons the the fact that national security services

Anna (00:25:07):

I mean

Anna (00:25:09):

have this pressure against the clerks.

Anna (00:25:11):

So this fact proves that we're not living in a constitutional country.

Hovik (00:25:15):

How are the Archbishops and Ms.

Hovik (00:25:17):

Grigoryan,

Hovik (00:25:18):

can you tell us a little bit about their health and their,

Hovik (00:25:22):

I guess, mental and emotional state?

Anna (00:25:24):

Mikhail Archbishop was still in hospital.

Anna (00:25:26):

I believe he's going to stay there for a couple of weeks still because he has other

Anna (00:25:32):

surgeries to go through.

Anna (00:25:35):

Bagrat Archbishop and Arshak Archbishop are in, this is called KGB Padval.

Hovik (00:25:45):

KGB basement, yes.

Anna (00:25:46):

Yes, basement that was used for during the years of Bolsheviks.

Anna (00:25:51):

And I usually tell that this government is even worse than Bolsheviks.

Anna (00:25:57):

Bolsheviks would have even more respect for our church than these people do, right?

Anna (00:26:04):

They had even more respect for our national identity than these people do.

Anna (00:26:09):

Well, Bagrat Archbishop was...

Anna (00:26:13):

I can say good.

Anna (00:26:15):

However, we had a lot of talk.

Anna (00:26:17):

It's a unique opportunity also for us to go there,

Anna (00:26:20):

to talk to them,

Anna (00:26:21):

to understand how they see the situation,

Anna (00:26:24):

how they view the situation from outside.

Asbed (00:26:27):

Bagrat Srbazan looks in strong spirits.

Asbed (00:26:30):

From his statements, I see that he's unbroken.

Hovik (00:26:34):

Absolutely.

Hovik (00:26:36):

We wish all of our hostage clergy,

Hovik (00:26:40):

hostage prisoners,

Hovik (00:26:42):

you know,

Hovik (00:26:43):

good health and freedom sooner rather than later.

Hovik (00:26:47):

So please convey that next time you talk to them.

Hovik (00:26:51):

And thank you for visiting them regularly.

Asbed (00:26:54):

Yes.

Asbed (00:26:57):

In our first show of 2026,

Asbed (00:26:59):

we analyzed the latest MPG poll,

Asbed (00:27:02):

which had just come out at the end of December,

Asbed (00:27:04):

I think.

Asbed (00:27:05):

One question had a 90% agreement by all the respondents,

Asbed (00:27:10):

and that was that all Armenian society needs greater solidarity and harmony.

Asbed (00:27:15):

And after that,

Asbed (00:27:16):

people also responded that the most likely candidate to spearhead society towards

Asbed (00:27:21):

that desired state of greater harmony is actually Archbishop Mikhail Ajabahyan.

Asbed (00:27:26):

And the second was Catholicos himself.

Anna (00:27:31):

Oh, it was interesting to hear that.

Anna (00:27:33):

I didn't know that.

Asbed (00:27:34):

Yeah, we'll send you the slide because we talked about that on our show.

Asbed (00:27:39):

Can you tell us what kind of off-ramps do you see in this Pashinyan versus church war?

Asbed (00:27:45):

And how can we restore social harmony in a way that it doesn't allow a blanket

Asbed (00:27:51):

impunity to everyone on all of the sides in the conflict in this crisis?

Anna (00:27:58):

You know, I believe that this is the first case that his actions,

Anna (00:28:02):

whatever action he takes,

Anna (00:28:03):

it works against him.

Anna (00:28:05):

I think this is the first case.

Anna (00:28:07):

In chess we have, I don't know whether I know this term right in English, Zugzwang.

Hovik (00:28:15):

Yeah, it's used in English.

Anna (00:28:17):

Zugzwang, yes.

Anna (00:28:19):

Every next step he takes, it works against him.

Anna (00:28:21):

There are not good solutions for him.

Anna (00:28:23):

If Catholicos is strong enough to stay in his position,

Anna (00:28:27):

then nothing can change the situation.

Anna (00:28:30):

So Pashinyan is going to lose.

Anna (00:28:32):

Even if Catholicos is arrested, it's still against Pashinyan.

Anna (00:28:37):

People do not support this agenda.

Anna (00:28:39):

I'm really telling you.

Anna (00:28:41):

There are a lot of people that are not followers of our church.

Anna (00:28:45):

There are a lot of people who do not like Catholicos even,

Anna (00:28:51):

but they understand that this is not against person.

Anna (00:28:54):

This is not against personality of Catholicos.

Anna (00:28:57):

This is against the church.

Anna (00:28:59):

he's ruining the church he is ruining them the biggest network in the world right

Anna (00:29:05):

and so every next step is working against him even if against pushing and even if

Anna (00:29:11):

he arrests Catholicos even if he puts good joy on and someone else in his position

Anna (00:29:19):

so it's first of all illegitimate, it's a matter of time it's a matter of

Anna (00:29:25):

time one year two years ten years

Anna (00:29:29):

He will be ousted and the new realities are going to be formed.

Anna (00:29:33):

We are dealing with an institution that has history of more than 1,700.

Anna (00:29:40):

One year, two years, even 10 years or 20 years are so small in this dimension.

Anna (00:29:46):

So these illegitimate actions are going to be forgotten.

Anna (00:29:51):

as a nightmare.

Anna (00:29:53):

But anyway,

Anna (00:29:54):

without lyrical part,

Anna (00:29:55):

if Catholicos,

Anna (00:29:57):

and I see that he's very strong right now,

Anna (00:29:59):

if he stays in his position,

Anna (00:30:01):

then Pashinyan has no way to win this battle,

Anna (00:30:05):

right?

Anna (00:30:06):

Catholicos, there is a strong pressure against him.

Anna (00:30:10):

His brother, the issue of his brother, they try to label him as an agent, as an KGB agent.

Anna (00:30:17):

His other brother and son are now in prison.

Anna (00:30:22):

And any step is being taken against him.

Anna (00:30:25):

But I can proudly say that he is very strong in this position.

Anna (00:30:29):

And we all hope that he's going to stay in this position.

Hovik (00:30:33):

Yes, yes, indeed.

Hovik (00:30:34):

Let's move on, Ms.

Hovik (00:30:36):

Grigoryan, because we have a few other topics.

Hovik (00:30:39):

So on January 13,

Hovik (00:30:41):

Foreign Minister Mirzoyan,

Hovik (00:30:43):

or acting foreign minister,

Hovik (00:30:45):

however you want to term him,

Hovik (00:30:48):

and Marco Rubio signed various agreements in Washington that gave more clarity

Hovik (00:30:53):

about the logistics of the trip and what it's going to be.

Hovik (00:30:59):

TRIPP, meaning what the Azeris referred to as the Zangezur Corridor for our listeners,

Hovik (00:31:05):

or I guess if you expand it,

Hovik (00:31:06):

the Trump Route for International Peace and Prosperity.

Hovik (00:31:11):

So what were you able to understand from these recent revelations,

Hovik (00:31:16):

and how do you assess the deal now?

Anna (00:31:18):

First of all, the whole process was initially called the process of de-blockading of Armenia.

Anna (00:31:25):

So all the roads are going to be opened.

Anna (00:31:27):

At last, Armenia is going to break.

Anna (00:31:31):

But what we see today,

Anna (00:31:32):

that the only road that is on the table,

Anna (00:31:35):

the discussions are only about the roads connecting Nakhijevan with Azerbaijan.

Anna (00:31:40):

So this is Azeri's agenda.

Anna (00:31:42):

Where is our agenda there?

Anna (00:31:44):

Where is the de-blockading?

Anna (00:31:47):

of all the roads of Armenia.

Anna (00:31:49):

Have they spoken about, for example, the road of

Anna (00:31:56):

No, of course.

Anna (00:31:57):

It's not on the table.

Anna (00:31:58):

Have they spoken?

Anna (00:31:59):

Have they raised the issue of Gazakh-Ijevan railway?

Anna (00:32:05):

Of course, no.

Anna (00:32:06):

So this is just Azerbaijan's initial aim to have connection, by the way, unimpeded path.

Anna (00:32:14):

This is something they've reached.

Anna (00:32:16):

So Azerbaijan gets unimpeded path through the territory of Armenia,

Anna (00:32:24):

US has its presence in the region right next to Iran.

Anna (00:32:30):

This is another geopolitical issue we are going to talk.

Anna (00:32:32):

And what gets Armenia?

Anna (00:32:34):

Armenia handed its most precious part,

Anna (00:32:38):

one of the main geopolitical assets we have,

Anna (00:32:42):

right to the US.

Anna (00:32:46):

74% of the control package is not in our hands.

Anna (00:32:51):

We not be able to have our final word concerning the procedures,

Anna (00:32:57):

the decision-making process is not going to harbor on what we think.

Anna (00:33:01):

Again,

Anna (00:33:02):

we give our most precious part of our country from the geopolitical perspective to

Anna (00:33:08):

the US,

Anna (00:33:09):

74%, right,

Anna (00:33:11):

74%.

Anna (00:33:12):

And it's not economic process.

Anna (00:33:14):

This is not economic.

Anna (00:33:15):

We're not talking about economic gains.

Anna (00:33:18):

These are mainly

Anna (00:33:19):

political and geopolitical processes.

Anna (00:33:24):

And you know, when we are talking, when we usually say that Azerbaijan gained what they wanted,

Anna (00:33:31):

and all the others say have you read the document do you see how many times the

Anna (00:33:38):

word sovereignty territorial integrity are enshrined there there are so many times

Anna (00:33:43):

written there and it is already suspicious that they use so many times the word

Anna (00:33:48):

sovereignty there and but they say that there's going to be a front office and a

Anna (00:33:53):

back and

Anna (00:33:54):

back office.

Anna (00:33:56):

So this is about packaging.

Anna (00:33:58):

Front office, back office,

Anna (00:33:59):

it's about packaging because Azerbaijan said they do not want to see Armenians on

Anna (00:34:05):

the road.

Anna (00:34:06):

And they use these tactics of what, for example, in the European Union is used.

Anna (00:34:12):

But European Union is a union.

Anna (00:34:15):

It's unlike... A friendly countries.

Anna (00:34:18):

They're friendly countries, economically, politically.

Anna (00:34:22):

They are interconnected.

Anna (00:34:24):

But this is not true for Armenia and Azerbaijan.

Anna (00:34:27):

We have no other borders.

Anna (00:34:29):

The borders are not opened, right?

Anna (00:34:31):

The roads are not opened.

Anna (00:34:33):

So nothing changes.

Anna (00:34:34):

But Azerbaijan...

Anna (00:34:36):

gets access to nahi japan unimpeded path through the territory of armenia and the

Anna (00:34:43):

majority of the revenue if there is such will get the united states of America and

Anna (00:34:49):

the presence of the us is still controversial uh from the perspective of having

Anna (00:34:54):

Iran right in the borders and uh you might probably heard we saw the warning yeah

Hovik (00:35:00):

that from the Iranian ambassador right

Anna (00:35:02):

The Iranian ambassador, the newly appointed ambassador to Armenia, expressed his concerns.

Anna (00:35:11):

I mean, the statement was really something.

Hovik (00:35:13):

He said that Armenia was becoming a hub for enemies of Iran, something like that.

Anna (00:35:22):

Yes, yes, yes, yes.

Anna (00:35:24):

And this is a worrisome statement.

Anna (00:35:27):

This is a worrisome statement.

Anna (00:35:28):

Of course, this government might think that Iran

Anna (00:35:33):

I mean, the government in Iran is not going to resist to what's going on in Iran.

Anna (00:35:39):

Might be that there are going to be changes in Iran.

Anna (00:35:43):

I don't know what their calculations are.

Anna (00:35:46):

But what we see is obviously they have not,

Anna (00:35:49):

they didn't have,

Anna (00:35:50):

I mean, Pashinyan's government didn't have enough communication with Iran.

Anna (00:35:54):

They didn't channel these concerns and the

Anna (00:35:59):

The concerns by Iran are rational, are logical, and they couldn't be otherwise.

Hovik (00:36:04):

Yeah.

Hovik (00:36:05):

Ms. Grigoryan, you mentioned Iran.

Hovik (00:36:07):

I also want to mention the November 9-10 statement,

Hovik (00:36:11):

point number nine,

Hovik (00:36:12):

which said that it would be Russia that would be controlling the security of the

Hovik (00:36:18):

corridor.

Hovik (00:36:19):

We have since seen that Russian officials multiple times reiterate that interest.

Hovik (00:36:26):

Most recently, we had Fyodor Lukyanov on our podcast.

Hovik (00:36:28):

He is the director of the Valdai Club, and he interviews President Putin every year.

Hovik (00:36:35):

And he told us something very stark.

Hovik (00:36:37):

He said that, yes, Russia may be preoccupied with Ukraine,

Hovik (00:36:43):

but that doesn't mean that Russia doesn't have interests in the region.

Hovik (00:36:47):

We can talk about the Eurasian Economic Union,

Hovik (00:36:50):

we can talk about other innate regions,

Hovik (00:36:55):

interests of Russia,

Hovik (00:36:56):

especially north-south communication and so forth,

Hovik (00:36:59):

but he said that those interests should not be ignored.

Hovik (00:37:02):

So on the one hand we have Iran,

Hovik (00:37:06):

on the other hand we have Russia,

Hovik (00:37:07):

whose interests are completely ignored.

Hovik (00:37:10):

What is the likelihood of these two major regional powers,

Hovik (00:37:16):

and in the case of Russia,

Hovik (00:37:17):

the world superpower,

Hovik (00:37:19):

what is the likelihood of them accepting this reality?

Anna (00:37:24):

Hovik, just to remind our audience,

Anna (00:37:28):

the development concerning this road or corridor,

Anna (00:37:34):

it's a matter of interpretation,

Anna (00:37:36):

right?

Anna (00:37:37):

Since November 9.

Anna (00:37:39):

In November 9 statement,

Anna (00:37:40):

we had that there is a lodging corridor and presumably there is going to be a

Anna (00:37:46):

mirroring situation concerning Nakhijevan and Azerbaijan.

Anna (00:37:50):

When Pashinyan declared Nagorno-Karabakh as part of Azerbaijan,

Anna (00:37:55):

then this issue of Nagorno-Karabakh and Azerbaijan path should have automatically

Anna (00:38:00):

been removed from negotiations because this issue appeared because of Lachin

Anna (00:38:06):

Corridor.

Anna (00:38:07):

If there is Lachin Corridor, why should we discuss this path?

Anna (00:38:11):

But I want to remind you that back then,

Anna (00:38:13):

back then,

Anna (00:38:14):

when there was,

Anna (00:38:15):

of course, in the in the document,

Anna (00:38:17):

there was about Russian presence there that the Russians are going to control,

Anna (00:38:20):

again,

Anna (00:38:21):

mirroring the Lachin corridor.

Anna (00:38:23):

And this government and the supporters of this government will tell that this is

Anna (00:38:28):

occupation of Russia.

Anna (00:38:29):

This is intolerable, unacceptable.

Anna (00:38:32):

But when it comes to the United States of America, then this is, I mean, this is perfect.

Anna (00:38:39):

We're going to flourish.

Anna (00:38:41):

I mean, these are just ridiculous.

Anna (00:38:44):

So in case of Russia, this was unacceptable.

Anna (00:38:48):

If it is the United States of America, then this is perfect.

Anna (00:38:52):

By the way,

Anna (00:38:53):

they sometimes tell us that huge money,

Anna (00:38:59):

I mean, huge resources were needed to build the roads or railway.

Anna (00:39:04):

There are different calculations showing that maximum what we needed to build the

Anna (00:39:09):

road and railway was four to three million dollars,

Anna (00:39:13):

which is not big money.

Anna (00:39:15):

which is not big money, we have that money, right?

Anna (00:39:18):

And if it was only about the resources that the United States is going to make

Anna (00:39:23):

constructions here,

Anna (00:39:25):

I mean,

Anna (00:39:26):

how they say,

Anna (00:39:27):

that they're giving the right to the USA,

Anna (00:39:29):

to the US to build the road.

Anna (00:39:33):

But we have enough resources, we had enough resources to do that.

Anna (00:39:38):

So this is Russia, US, this is geopolitical, of course, within the geopolitical,

Anna (00:39:45):

confrontation between the West and the regional powers, in fact.

Anna (00:39:51):

But I believe the Pashinyans regime thought that in reality,

Anna (00:39:55):

Russia is too busy with Ukraine and they can go on with this plan.

Anna (00:40:01):

And the same was about Iran.

Anna (00:40:03):

They thought Iran was very busy trying to safeguard their interest in the region,

Anna (00:40:09):

especially vis-a-vis Israel.

Anna (00:40:13):

So they made this plan,

Anna (00:40:15):

but unfortunately,

Anna (00:40:16):

again, I do not see that Armenian interests are supported here.

Anna (00:40:21):

Do you remember in August 9th statement, they were talking about reciprocity?

Anna (00:40:26):

they're going to be as if Armenia would have the same reciprocal benefits.

Anna (00:40:33):

So they were telling us,

Anna (00:40:35):

if Azerbaijan has an unimpeded access to Nakhijevan,

Anna (00:40:39):

then Armenia would have reciprocal advantages,

Anna (00:40:43):

reciprocal benefits.

Anna (00:40:45):

Now we ask them, where is our reciprocal benefit?

Anna (00:40:49):

Are we allowed to go through Azerbaijan?

Anna (00:40:52):

Again, unimpeded way.

Asbed (00:40:55):

Without saying any Azeris.

Anna (00:40:57):

Yes, without seeing any Azeris.

Anna (00:40:59):

So is there an Azerbaijan U.S.

Anna (00:41:01):

company in Azerbaijan with this back office and front office?

Anna (00:41:07):

So where is the advantage we have?

Asbed (00:41:10):

That's an interesting question you ask,

Asbed (00:41:12):

because I believe that the Hayastan Dashink had an interesting proposal that if we

Asbed (00:41:17):

were to look at the so-called Zangizur Corridor,

Asbed (00:41:19):

which Pashinyan says when Aliyev is talking about Zangizur Corridor,

Asbed (00:41:22):

he's actually talking about the part that...

Asbed (00:41:25):

crosses Azerbaijani territory, the parts that were conquered during the 44-day war.

Asbed (00:41:31):

Of course, that's not true, but that's what he says.

Asbed (00:41:33):

So Haizan Dashing had proposed that let's look at the Zangezur Corridor then in a

Asbed (00:41:37):

holistic way,

Asbed (00:41:38):

the whole thing from all the way from Turkey,

Asbed (00:41:40):

all the way to Azerbaijan,

Asbed (00:41:43):

and put all of that under some kind of a U.S.,

Asbed (00:41:46):

Armenian Azeri thing.

Asbed (00:41:48):

I don't know what happened to that proposal.

Asbed (00:41:50):

I'm sure that that's,

Asbed (00:41:52):

well, I don't know as of yesterday where that proposal will stand anymore since Ararat,

Asbed (00:41:57):

Mirzoyan,

Asbed (00:41:58):

and Rubio have published certain papers about it.

Asbed (00:42:03):

Is that still on the table?

Asbed (00:42:04):

Is that something that Hayastan Dashinq, if elected, let's say, would propose?

Anna (00:42:09):

Yes, absolutely.

Anna (00:42:10):

This is the proposal that was made by President Kocharyan during one of his conferences, right?

Anna (00:42:18):

Or it was an interview.

Asbed (00:42:19):

Yes.

Anna (00:42:19):

Well, anyway, he proposed that to have this reciprocal thing.

Anna (00:42:23):

So if there is an unimpeded path for Azerbaijan,

Anna (00:42:27):

then this trip project has to be enlarged and including,

Anna (00:42:32):

for example,

Anna (00:42:33):

Nakhijevan and Yeraskh route includes Kars,

Anna (00:42:37):

Gyumri,

Anna (00:42:39):

Let us also that include which is the shortest way,

Anna (00:42:42):

by the way,

Anna (00:42:43):

which is the most productive route.

Anna (00:42:46):

So this is,

Anna (00:42:47):

I mean,

Anna (00:42:48):

if we are talking about real deep locating of the Republic of Armenia,

Anna (00:42:52):

we shouldn't take only one route that is within the interest of Azerbaijan and

Anna (00:42:56):

Turkey.

Anna (00:42:57):

We need to take all the routes where Armenian interests are also met.

Anna (00:43:01):

So it is on the table.

Anna (00:43:02):

I mean,

Anna (00:43:03):

this is our proposal and we're going to work with that.

Anna (00:43:06):

Even if now the TRIB document is signed in this way,

Anna (00:43:09):

I believe with the change of the government,

Anna (00:43:11):

we can go on with the negotiations,

Anna (00:43:13):

we can go on with these proposals and work also with the US government with these

Anna (00:43:19):

proposals.

Asbed (00:43:21):

That is good to know.

Asbed (00:43:22):

So let's talk a little bit about these June elections as our closing topic,

Asbed (00:43:26):

because polls suggest that despite various catastrophic failures by Pashinyan over

Asbed (00:43:31):

the last five years,

Asbed (00:43:32):

his rating is still higher than the collective opposition.

Asbed (00:43:37):

Moreover, it is clear that external entities,

Asbed (00:43:39):

whether it is the EU,

Asbed (00:43:40):

the Turkish government,

Asbed (00:43:42):

through Fidan,

Asbed (00:43:43):

as you mentioned,

Asbed (00:43:44):

Hakan Fidan,

Asbed (00:43:45):

or Azerbaijan are

Asbed (00:43:47):

already actively lending their support to Pashinyan.

Asbed (00:43:50):

Tell us what's at stake in this election and what are the major themes that

Asbed (00:43:55):

Hayastan Dashing is trying to put first and foremost in front of the people this

Asbed (00:44:00):

time?

Anna (00:44:01):

So as a short comment,

Anna (00:44:03):

you said that Pashinyan has more support than the collective opposition.

Anna (00:44:09):

I don't think so.

Asbed (00:44:10):

It's very low.

Asbed (00:44:11):

He is like 17% or so,

Asbed (00:44:14):

which is horribly low,

Asbed (00:44:15):

but it's still higher than...

Anna (00:44:17):

He has up to 20% support by the population,

Anna (00:44:22):

but the collective opposition has more.

Anna (00:44:23):

I mean, he has more support than single opposition groups taken separately, but...

Anna (00:44:30):

When it comes to collective opposition, I mean, people support opposition more.

Anna (00:44:37):

It's the other thing whether we would be able to persuade people to go to elections.

Anna (00:44:43):

The election day, they will go to places to vote.

Anna (00:44:48):

This is another issue.

Anna (00:44:49):

I mean, one of the main challenges.

Anna (00:44:51):

we face amidst election processes is to persuade people,

Anna (00:44:55):

persuade the youth to go,

Anna (00:44:57):

to take part,

Anna (00:44:58):

to participate in elections.

Anna (00:45:00):

So this was just a short comment.

Anna (00:45:04):

Yes, I see that Europe openly, European Union openly supports Pashinyan.

Anna (00:45:12):

This is true.

Asbed (00:45:13):

And they're sending money.

Asbed (00:45:15):

They're sending millions.

Anna (00:45:17):

for a hybrid warfare against Russia.

Anna (00:45:22):

They don't know how it is illustrated,

Anna (00:45:24):

because when I ask how you see that there is hybrid war from Russia against our

Anna (00:45:30):

society,

Anna (00:45:31):

there are no vivid examples,

Anna (00:45:32):

right?

Anna (00:45:33):

But we see that they support Pashinyan's regime.

Anna (00:45:36):

It's right.

Anna (00:45:39):

from the Turkey,

Anna (00:45:40):

Azerbaijan,

Anna (00:45:41):

through these symbolic actions,

Anna (00:45:43):

through their statements,

Anna (00:45:44):

they have the support.

Anna (00:45:45):

Because Pashinyan is an historic gift

Anna (00:45:50):

for Azerbaijan and Turkey.

Anna (00:45:52):

Yes, he is a historic gift and they have to do everything.

Anna (00:45:55):

They will do everything to maintain him in power in Armenia.

Anna (00:46:00):

We see that.

Anna (00:46:01):

At the same time, we believe that the decision makers are our citizens.

Anna (00:46:07):

We do not seek support from outside.

Anna (00:46:12):

We seek support from within our society.

Anna (00:46:15):

And we need to work with people

Anna (00:46:19):

We need to work with every single people and we need to understand how to address

Anna (00:46:25):

the issues they face every day.

Anna (00:46:27):

Of course, the main topic during the elections will be the peace process.

Anna (00:46:33):

Unfortunately,

Anna (00:46:34):

right now, I see that Pashinyan has already tried to monopolize this agenda,

Anna (00:46:41):

even though the government,

Anna (00:46:43):

the only government during

Anna (00:46:45):

wished he knew we had the more wars, the most tragic consequences, the losses was passing in.

Anna (00:46:54):

But he tried to connect his personality with this peace process.

Anna (00:46:58):

And he even openly claims that if I'm out of the office, then Ali is going to attack.

Anna (00:47:06):

It openly says it.

Anna (00:47:08):

So one of the main issues is going to be peace process.

Anna (00:47:11):

So the connections,

Anna (00:47:15):

our relations with our neighboring countries,

Anna (00:47:17):

with the European Union,

Anna (00:47:18):

with Russia.

Anna (00:47:20):

Yes, these are going to be the main issues.

Anna (00:47:23):

I believe during the last campaign we were more general without making specific

Anna (00:47:30):

proposals to our citizens.

Anna (00:47:31):

But this time we were working on a document that would meet expectations of every

Anna (00:47:38):

single person,

Anna (00:47:40):

every single citizen in Armenia.

Anna (00:47:42):

Doctors, teachers, students.

Anna (00:47:47):

Except for general ideas, big projects, right?

Anna (00:47:51):

These are going to be there, of course.

Anna (00:47:53):

Big projects,

Anna (00:47:54):

infrastructure projects,

Anna (00:47:56):

I don't know,

Anna (00:47:57):

BRICS,

Anna (00:47:58):

European Union,

Anna (00:47:59):

Russian,

Anna (00:48:00):

big projects, they're going to be there.

Anna (00:48:01):

At the same time, we will work on specific topics.

Anna (00:48:05):

Recently, I was talking about free education in the universities.

Anna (00:48:11):

I believe we will be able to reach this.

Anna (00:48:14):

for students to get free education.

Anna (00:48:16):

It was done in Georgia.

Anna (00:48:20):

They promised it several years ago, and now they have free education.

Anna (00:48:25):

And we used to have a lot of students from Georgia, from Akhalkalak.

Anna (00:48:31):

Now they do not come to Armenia.

Anna (00:48:32):

They stay in Tbilisi.

Anna (00:48:34):

They go to Tbilisi to continue their higher education.

Anna (00:48:37):

So higher education in Armenia has to be free.

Anna (00:48:39):

I mean, in every field, in every single field, finance, economy,

Anna (00:48:44):

education, the main topic is, of course, going to be security.

Anna (00:48:49):

In all these aspects,

Anna (00:48:51):

we're going to make very specific topics,

Anna (00:48:54):

very specific solutions,

Anna (00:48:57):

so that every single Armenian would feel how their life is going to be changed.

Anna (00:49:04):

But I think that, of course, general ideas work very well.

Anna (00:49:10):

And Pashinyan, I myself associate Pashinyan with chaos.

Anna (00:49:13):

So every day we wake up trying to understand what he is doing.

Hovik (00:49:20):

He gave away this time.

Hovik (00:49:21):

Yeah.

Anna (00:49:22):

Yes.

Asbed (00:49:24):

Well, that just indicates the horribly low trust that people have in this government.

Asbed (00:49:29):

Yeah.

Anna (00:49:30):

Yes, yes.

Asbed (00:49:31):

If you wake up every morning fearing that we have conceded more,

Asbed (00:49:35):

our national security is lower,

Asbed (00:49:38):

that is a failure on the part of this government.

Asbed (00:49:40):

And I'm sorry to pontificate,

Asbed (00:49:42):

but the agenda with which he ran and became a prime minister was basically

Asbed (00:49:50):

everybody voted for Artsakh is Armenia and what we got is Artsakh is Azerbaijan.

Asbed (00:49:56):

Poverty rates have not gotten a lot better.

Asbed (00:49:58):

I think maybe one or two percent better.

Asbed (00:50:01):

The prosperity is extremely limited to a small cadre of people.

Asbed (00:50:07):

I don't see where the success has been, really.

Anna (00:50:12):

And the debt has risen two times.

Asbed (00:50:14):

Oh, my God. I forgot to mention that.

Anna (00:50:16):

Before he was elected, we had $8 billion of foreign debt, state debt.

Anna (00:50:22):

Now it is $14 billion.

Anna (00:50:24):

And when we usually ask, so where are so many?

Anna (00:50:27):

I mean, this amount of money, wherever you put, you need to see the outcome.

Anna (00:50:33):

$8 billion during your government.

Asbed (00:50:37):

During eight years.

Anna (00:50:39):

during eight years, so where they went, where they went.

Anna (00:50:43):

So what's the outcome, what you built?

Anna (00:50:46):

There are no specific infrastructures, roads, factories, people still live in poverty, right?

Anna (00:50:55):

So the next government needs to face these problems.

Anna (00:50:58):

They need to meet this issue of the debt.

Anna (00:51:02):

Because every year,

Anna (00:51:03):

every year,

Anna (00:51:04):

we give more money for this,

Anna (00:51:08):

I'm sorry, I don't remember,

Anna (00:51:10):

for this percentage,

Anna (00:51:11):

right, for the percentage.

Asbed (00:51:12):

That's right.

Anna (00:51:14):

Yes, yes.

Anna (00:51:15):

The amount of the money we give for this percentage,

Anna (00:51:19):

right,

Anna (00:51:20):

equals to the amount of money we give to our healthcare system,

Anna (00:51:26):

to our education system taken together.

Asbed (00:51:29):

You're taking the amount of money that it's taking to service the debt for the national debt.

Asbed (00:51:34):

That has become very heavy on the economy.

Asbed (00:51:37):

Anna, I see that you have, or Hayastan Dashinq, has a very strong platform.

Asbed (00:51:43):

There are issues that you plan to address.

Asbed (00:51:46):

But like you said,

Asbed (00:51:47):

with 34 MPs,

Asbed (00:51:49):

it's very difficult to get these things done because the ruling party currently has

Asbed (00:51:53):

a super majority.

Asbed (00:51:54):

What's needed for the opposition, and I'm talking the broad spectrum of opposition, which is

Asbed (00:52:00):

all of the opposition that's not ruling party or some of the so-called oppositions

Asbed (00:52:04):

which are in the pocket of the ruling party.

Asbed (00:52:07):

What is it going to take for you to win in 2026?

Asbed (00:52:11):

What's the strategy?

Asbed (00:52:12):

How do you plan to do that?

Anna (00:52:14):

As I have already said, majority of our population from 65% up to 65% has opposition viewpoints.

Anna (00:52:24):

they accept,

Anna (00:52:25):

I mean, they do not accept what Pashinyan is doing and has already done to our country and

Anna (00:52:30):

to our nation.

Anna (00:52:31):

So we have very fruitful platforms, fruitful soil to work.

Anna (00:52:36):

So the first challenge,

Anna (00:52:38):

again,

Anna (00:52:39):

we have is to persuade people to go,

Anna (00:52:42):

to take part,

Anna (00:52:43):

to participate in the election.

Anna (00:52:45):

And if the participation rate is low, if it is below 40 or 50%,

Anna (00:52:53):

below 40, then unfortunately the government has higher possibility to get reelected.

Anna (00:52:59):

So the first thing we need to do is to

Anna (00:53:04):

have this participation rate high, high enough.

Anna (00:53:09):

The second thing,

Anna (00:53:10):

by the way,

Anna (00:53:11):

we have already started this process of talking to other opposition groups to agree

Anna (00:53:18):

upon certain issues.

Anna (00:53:20):

So we do not fight against each other until elections.

Anna (00:53:24):

So there's kind of unity.

Anna (00:53:26):

We have one main target.

Anna (00:53:28):

This is Pashinyan.

Anna (00:53:29):

So we want to form,

Anna (00:53:33):

I mean,

Anna (00:53:34):

there is negotiation process to form a productive platform for our hostages in

Anna (00:53:42):

prison.

Anna (00:53:44):

political prisoners.

Anna (00:53:46):

So there are different points we need to negotiate concerning these issues with our

Anna (00:53:53):

opposition groups.

Anna (00:53:54):

But generally we need to work very aggressively in a good way

Anna (00:54:00):

in a good meaning connotation of the word aggressively.

Anna (00:54:04):

Because Pashinyan is working, is already working, has already been working for several months.

Anna (00:54:09):

He has using the whole administrative resources.

Anna (00:54:13):

He has this campaign of education is modern.

Anna (00:54:17):

He's, I mean, using this drums thing.

Anna (00:54:20):

He's, I mean, he's doing all this all the time, right?

Anna (00:54:24):

We need to be more aggressive.

Anna (00:54:26):

We need to be more aggressive.

Anna (00:54:28):

Sometimes I have a feeling,

Anna (00:54:29):

and this is criticism of us,

Anna (00:54:31):

that the current government still acts as an opposition.

Anna (00:54:36):

And current opposition sometimes acts as the party in power, right?

Anna (00:54:41):

while we as opposition have to be more active, more progressive, right?

Hovik (00:54:51):

Sorry, hold your thought, but I want to ask, you said about different platforms.

Hovik (00:54:56):

Will your platforms include the issue of Artsakh in terms of the collective rights

Hovik (00:55:02):

of the people of Artsakh?

Anna (00:55:03):

Absolutely.

Anna (00:55:04):

Absolutely.

Anna (00:55:05):

This is the agenda we have.

Anna (00:55:07):

Their collective right has to be safeguarded.

Anna (00:55:10):

Listen, this is a matter of international law and it has to be respected.

Anna (00:55:15):

Of course, this is a matter that we are going to suggest.

Hovik (00:55:21):

So we have, I mean, one of the things, it was really disheartening.

Hovik (00:55:25):

It was really,

Hovik (00:55:26):

really sad for me when I saw that 27 parties or something like that were running

Hovik (00:55:33):

for the 2021 elections.

Hovik (00:55:38):

Obviously, I think part of the reason why the opposition failed was because of all of those

Hovik (00:55:43):

elections,

Hovik (00:55:44):

all of those parties basically erasing the votes or stealing the votes and actually

Hovik (00:55:51):

resulting in the incumbent getting the votes.

Hovik (00:55:57):

some small parties running in these elections, or claiming to want to run in these elections.

Hovik (00:56:04):

I will mention a few of them.

Hovik (00:56:06):

Arman Tatoyan, obviously, from the Wings of Unity.

Hovik (00:56:10):

I don't want to say they're small, but they are relatively small.

Hovik (00:56:14):

Narek Karapetyan from Mer Dzevov,

Hovik (00:56:18):

I will say they're already showing to be very promising,

Hovik (00:56:20):

so they're not very small.

Hovik (00:56:21):

But both of these parties have said that the formers

Hovik (00:56:26):

That essentially applies to Robert Kocharyan and Serge Sargsyan have to stay out of

Hovik (00:56:33):

the picture in order for the opposition to succeed.

Hovik (00:56:37):

So I wanted to get your response to that.

Hovik (00:56:40):

I know this has been a frequent topic of discussion in Armenian language media,

Hovik (00:56:45):

but probably not as much in English language media.

Hovik (00:56:48):

So what is your response to this line of thinking?

Anna (00:56:53):

I believe Narek and Arman are talking about different things.

Anna (00:56:58):

Narek says that the next head of government has to be a new person.

Anna (00:57:03):

But he doesn't say that the previous president shouldn't take part in the electoral process.

Anna (00:57:11):

While Arman says that Kocharyan shouldn't take part in the election.

Anna (00:57:17):

When they say Nakhkins,

Anna (00:57:18):

when they say previous presidents,

Anna (00:57:20):

they predominantly mean Kocharyan,

Anna (00:57:22):

because Kocharyan has this appeal.

Anna (00:57:24):

I mean, he is going to take part in the election.

Hovik (00:57:27):

Yeah, Serge Sargsyan has excluded himself already.

Anna (00:57:30):

Yes,

Anna (00:57:31):

and Levante Petrosyan,

Anna (00:57:32):

they are going to take part in the election in the face of Levon Zourabyan,

Anna (00:57:35):

right?

Anna (00:57:37):

So, I mean, there are small nuances in what they say.

Anna (00:57:42):

With due respect to Armand Tatoyan,

Anna (00:57:43):

who has been a great human rights defender in Armenia,

Anna (00:57:50):

I still think that he,

Anna (00:57:54):

I mean, the real leader has to work

Anna (00:57:57):

with people,

Anna (00:57:59):

spreading his ideas,

Anna (00:58:00):

has to be strong enough not to talk about others,

Anna (00:58:04):

participate or not participate.

Anna (00:58:06):

He has to make strong agenda, talk to people,

Anna (00:58:11):

I mean, spread his ideas, gain support by the population.

Anna (00:58:17):

And these things about like previous presidents shouldn't take part so that

Anna (00:58:24):

Pashinyan doesn't get elected.

Anna (00:58:26):

I mean, this doesn't work.

Anna (00:58:28):

Maybe in 2021,

Anna (00:58:30):

when there were two main blocks,

Anna (00:58:32):

the ruling party and us,

Anna (00:58:34):

this polarization could work for Pashinyan.

Anna (00:58:37):

But in this case, there are so many forces.

Anna (00:58:40):

So there are so many, I mean, people can participate and

Anna (00:58:46):

vote for any of us right and I would suggest with again but due respect because I

Anna (00:58:51):

really respect Arman to work on his agenda to talk to people and gain support by

Anna (00:58:57):

the people

Anna (00:58:59):

And not talk and talk less about who should take part and who shouldn't take part

Anna (00:59:05):

in these processes.

Anna (00:59:06):

Because,

Anna (00:59:07):

you know,

Anna (00:59:08):

during these years,

Anna (00:59:09):

it was very,

Anna (00:59:11):

because opposition,

Anna (00:59:12):

unfortunately,

Anna (00:59:13):

couldn't succeed in toppling Pashinyan,

Anna (00:59:15):

people are trying to understand why we couldn't do that.

Anna (00:59:19):

And

Anna (00:59:20):

One of the reasons they could make they came up with was that Cochrane is still there, right?

Anna (00:59:26):

But Cochrane was not President Cochrane was not talking for several years He was

Anna (00:59:31):

preserving silence leaving space for others to gain Muscles political muscles,

Anna (00:59:39):

right to have this I mean this presence in the political field,

Anna (00:59:46):

but unfortunately unfortunately

Anna (00:59:49):

For everyone, it didn't happen.

Anna (00:59:51):

And still Kocharyan, as an individual, is considered to be the main opponent of Po Xiong.

Anna (01:00:00):

And this is not a solution.

Anna (01:00:02):

This is not a solution to the issue.

Anna (01:00:04):

So we,

Anna (01:00:06):

with the leader, Kocharyan,

Anna (01:00:08):

Mer Dzevov, I don't know who their leader is going to be,

Anna (01:00:10):

Armand Tatoyan and the others have to vary in a good way,

Anna (01:00:14):

with a good connotation,

Anna (01:00:15):

aggressively work proposing our...

Anna (01:00:21):

having our proposals with the issues we think are very important, and work with people.

Anna (01:00:29):

And with these blocks,

Anna (01:00:30):

then, after the elections,

Anna (01:00:31):

I believe we can get the government,

Anna (01:00:34):

I believe we can get together to topple Pashinyan.

Asbed (01:00:38):

You are right to wonder who's going to be leading Mer Dzevov,

Asbed (01:00:41):

because just today,

Asbed (01:00:42):

I believe, that the courts brought Samvel Karapetyan back to jail.

Asbed (01:00:48):

Yes.

Anna (01:00:49):

After two weeks...

Anna (01:00:52):

By default,

Anna (01:00:53):

Samvel Karapetyan couldn't be the first number,

Anna (01:00:55):

couldn't be their candidate for prime minister because he doesn't have only

Anna (01:01:01):

Armenian citizenship.

Anna (01:01:02):

So this hinders his candidacy.

Anna (01:01:07):

Most probably it's going to be Narek Karapetyan.

Anna (01:01:11):

Most probably.

Anna (01:01:13):

I mean, we're going to wait for official statements.

Asbed (01:01:17):

Now,

Asbed (01:01:18):

while we're talking about personalities,

Asbed (01:01:21):

do you personally have plans to participate in the 2026 elections?

Asbed (01:01:26):

What format would your participation be, and will you stay with Hayastan Dashinq?

Anna (01:01:31):

What do you think, Asbed?

Asbed (01:01:33):

Well, I hope you do run.

Anna (01:01:35):

Okay.

Anna (01:01:37):

I'm going to take part in the elections, and within this format, I'm now in Hayastan Dashinq.

Hovik (01:01:45):

Okay, great.

Hovik (01:01:46):

Speaking about formats, can I just also ask the question?

Hovik (01:01:50):

Because Ishkhan Saghatelyan gave a press conference a few days ago,

Hovik (01:01:55):

or maybe it was yesterday,

Hovik (01:01:56):

sorry.

Hovik (01:01:57):

My dates are very fuzzy nowadays.

Hovik (01:02:00):

But he said that they are also,

Hovik (01:02:02):

the Armenian Revolutionary Federation,

Hovik (01:02:04):

ARF, is also seeking to stay in the same format,

Hovik (01:02:09):

which is to go into the elections with an alliance.

Hovik (01:02:13):

And they are conducting negotiations with other members of the highest on dashing.

Hovik (01:02:17):

So it's not final.

Hovik (01:02:19):

but they are conducting negotiations in order to form an alliance for the 2026 elections.

Hovik (01:02:28):

Can you tell us more about that?

Hovik (01:02:30):

I understand there are negotiations going,

Hovik (01:02:32):

but do you see any significant changes in the makeup of the Hayastan Dashinq?

Hovik (01:02:40):

We know, for instance,

Hovik (01:02:41):

that in 2021,

Hovik (01:02:42):

there were two other parties,

Hovik (01:02:44):

smaller parties,

Hovik (01:02:45):

as part of the alliance,

Hovik (01:02:48):

I think both of them are reborn.

Hovik (01:02:50):

Armenia left parliament.

Hovik (01:02:53):

Are they going to come back?

Hovik (01:02:55):

And what can you tell us,

Hovik (01:02:57):

can you give us more ideas about what the new Hayastan Dashing in 2026 is going to

Hovik (01:03:02):

look like?

Anna (01:03:04):

Well, you know, I'm not from Dashnaktsutyun.

Anna (01:03:09):

I'm not Dashnaktsakan.

Asbed (01:03:10):

Yes, of course.

Anna (01:03:11):

And I believe I'm not in the position to...

Anna (01:03:15):

To tell what I mean,

Anna (01:03:18):

they're now having negotiations, first of all they have negotiations with president

Anna (01:03:22):

Kocharyan and us, of course,

Anna (01:03:24):

and I think that it is highly likely that we again Participate in the elections in

Anna (01:03:30):

the same format.

Anna (01:03:31):

It can be changed and people can be changed the main part is going to be could be

Anna (01:03:35):

there's not to tune and people that do not belong to any party so

Anna (01:03:44):

I think this is most probably we're going to work within this format.

Anna (01:03:48):

Of course, I believe we need to engage more people, new people that have their new

Anna (01:03:59):

have their words.

Anna (01:04:01):

I mean, we have the same viewpoints, but comparatively new, very strong.

Anna (01:04:10):

I mean, we need to enlarge,

Anna (01:04:12):

take new people,

Anna (01:04:14):

but at the same time,

Anna (01:04:15):

it's going to be,

Anna (01:04:16):

the format is going to be almost the same.

Anna (01:04:19):

Of course,

Anna (01:04:20):

Reborn Armenia is out of the parliament,

Anna (01:04:23):

but I think we're going to have this Bloc with Dashnaktsutyun.

Hovik (01:04:29):

Okay, interesting.

Hovik (01:04:31):

Are you concerned about threats from this government about banning political

Hovik (01:04:39):

parties, especially since EU is talking about repeating the Moldova scenario in Armenia?

Anna (01:04:47):

Yes, this is a concern.

Anna (01:04:49):

We frequently channel to convey to our colleagues from international community,

Anna (01:04:56):

different organizations.

Anna (01:04:58):

And we warn them against the possible actions by the government.

Anna (01:05:02):

Frankly speaking,

Anna (01:05:04):

I see that if Pashinyan anticipates that,

Anna (01:05:09):

for example, Mer Dzevov has big support from the population,

Anna (01:05:13):

I think he could ban.

Anna (01:05:16):

their participation.

Anna (01:05:19):

So we see this.

Anna (01:05:20):

And now we are also negotiating,

Anna (01:05:23):

I mean,

Anna (01:05:24):

in the process of negotiation between the groups that I talked to earlier,

Anna (01:05:29):

this topic

Anna (01:05:30):

is also there.

Anna (01:05:31):

So how to act if one of the parties is banned in the election process?

Anna (01:05:36):

So how the other actors in the political field have to react?

Anna (01:05:40):

What is going to be our reaction?

Anna (01:05:41):

First of all, the one who is banned.

Anna (01:05:44):

So what steps could be taken to overcome this obstacle?

Anna (01:05:50):

If the obstacle is not possible to overcome, what can other actors do collectively

Anna (01:05:57):

So to succeed because the main goal is to topple Pashinyan's regime, right?

Anna (01:06:05):

Because this is the main goal, all other measures are acceptable.

Anna (01:06:11):

So this is a matter of discussion right now.

Anna (01:06:14):

This is on our agenda of negotiations.

Anna (01:06:16):

And I think there,

Anna (01:06:18):

I don't want to open all the cards,

Anna (01:06:20):

but we have two,

Anna (01:06:22):

three possible scenarios.

Asbed (01:06:27):

So there's this belief that the reason that the opposition didn't succeed in 2021

Asbed (01:06:32):

was that there was very strong support for Pashinyan from all of the regional

Asbed (01:06:37):

powers. There was support from the EU, the United States, even Russia didn't object.

Asbed (01:06:41):

And Russia essentially has found him somebody that they can work with.

Asbed (01:06:47):

Has anything changed in 2026, given five years of

Asbed (01:06:53):

relationships that have degraded between Armenia and Russia.

Asbed (01:06:59):

Do you think that Pashinyan remains an acceptable candidate?

Asbed (01:07:03):

And can Russia tolerate five more years of Pashinyan at this point in time?

Anna (01:07:08):

I'm glad to hear that you mentioned Russia also as one of the supporters of this

Anna (01:07:13):

government,

Anna (01:07:14):

because usually Pashinyan,

Anna (01:07:17):

because of his actions in the recent time,

Anna (01:07:19):

he positions himself as enemy to Putin's government,

Anna (01:07:23):

right?

Anna (01:07:25):

But in 2021,

Anna (01:07:26):

we could see that Russia supports Pashinyan because they signed,

Anna (01:07:31):

I mean, Putin,

Anna (01:07:32):

Pashinyan and Aliyev,

Anna (01:07:34):

they together signed trilateral statement.

Anna (01:07:37):

And the one who signed had to implement the provisions of the statement.

Anna (01:07:42):

But right now, I do not see the support by Russia.

Anna (01:07:44):

I do not see the support.

Anna (01:07:46):

I wouldn't say they are against this government.

Anna (01:07:51):

I wouldn't say that they would take actions against this government.

Anna (01:07:55):

Otherwise,

Anna (01:07:56):

you see that our economy is thoroughly dependent on Russia's economy,

Anna (01:08:01):

on the Russian Economic Union.

Anna (01:08:03):

And you see that there are no any steps taken by Russia to somehow make problems

Anna (01:08:10):

for them, at least to say so.

Anna (01:08:12):

Right.

Anna (01:08:13):

But as I have already said, we need to focus our attention on our population.

Anna (01:08:22):

Yes.

Anna (01:08:23):

The different powers worldwide in the region, out of the region, support Pashinyan.

Anna (01:08:29):

But it is our population, it is our society.

Anna (01:08:32):

Armenians have to decide who their leaders are going to be.

Anna (01:08:37):

So we are working with the people, not with geopolitical centers.

Anna (01:08:44):

And if we are talking about what has changed since 2021 in the internal context,

Anna (01:08:50):

in 2021,

Anna (01:08:52):

still there was perception that Pashinyan is that poor guy that didn't want the

Anna (01:08:58):

war, that was fighting for people of Nagorno-Karabakh.

Anna (01:09:02):

He never wanted the war.

Anna (01:09:03):

Right now,

Anna (01:09:04):

it is more than clear that because of his actions,

Anna (01:09:07):

the war started,

Anna (01:09:08):

because of his actions,

Anna (01:09:10):

he recognized Artsakh as part of Azerbaijan.

Anna (01:09:13):

During ethnic closings in Artsakh,

Anna (01:09:15):

he had a video saying that the people,

Anna (01:09:19):

civilians in Nagorno-Karabakh are not under threat.

Anna (01:09:22):

So people saw all this during this series, and they, unequivocally, would claim that Pashinyan

Anna (01:09:33):

gave Artsakh to Azerbaijan, which was a start to the end of ethnic cleansing in Artsakh.

Anna (01:09:41):

So, I mean, in 2021, it wasn't still clear who was to be responsible for the war.

Anna (01:09:47):

It is,

Anna (01:09:49):

of course,

Anna (01:09:50):

absurd, but people would say that Kocharian that used to tenure some 10 or more than 10

Anna (01:09:55):

years ago,

Anna (01:09:56):

some, I don't know, 12, 14 years ago,

Anna (01:09:57):

could be responsible for the war.

Anna (01:10:03):

These narratives are very active in our society.

Anna (01:10:06):

But now people understand who has to be blamed for the war,

Anna (01:10:11):

for the consequences,

Anna (01:10:13):

and for the loss of Nagorno-Karabakh,

Anna (01:10:16):

for the loss of the villages in Tavush,

Anna (01:10:18):

for the loss of the roads in Merlin.

Anna (01:10:23):

So,

Anna (01:10:24):

I mean... Yeah,

Asbed (01:10:26):

that's 18 years ago,

Asbed (01:10:27):

by the way,

Asbed (01:10:28):

at this point,

Asbed (01:10:29):

that President Kocharyan hasn't been president.

Asbed (01:10:32):

from 1998 to 2008,

Asbed (01:10:34):

and this government still blames him for things that happened or are happening

Asbed (01:10:40):

right now.

Anna (01:10:41):

I mean, there are huge changes in the perception of the realities we had.

Anna (01:10:46):

So,

Anna (01:10:47):

I mean, working with these perceptions,

Anna (01:10:48):

working with the huge discontent with this government,

Anna (01:10:52):

I believe the opposition generally united can solve this issue.

Hovik (01:11:00):

Mr Korean.

Hovik (01:11:01):

Thank you.

Hovik (01:11:02):

This was a thoroughly interesting discussion.

Hovik (01:11:05):

And thank you for agreeing to come on because this is going to be a very important topic.

Hovik (01:11:10):

I hope I can put you on the spot here and get your agreement to come on more

Hovik (01:11:15):

regularly in the next few months.

Hovik (01:11:17):

So that we can talk to our audience.

Hovik (01:11:19):

Yeah, we would love to talk with you during this election season.

Anna (01:11:23):

Yes, absolutely.

Anna (01:11:24):

It was my pleasure to be with you.

Anna (01:11:25):

And I promise to have more frequent talks to you, especially when the election days comes.

Asbed (01:11:31):

Thank you.

Asbed (01:11:32):

Thank you very much.

Anna (01:11:33):

Thank you.

Asbed (01:11:36):

That was our show today.

Asbed (01:11:38):

This episode was recorded on January 16, 2026.

Asbed (01:11:41):

We've been talking with Mrs.

Asbed (01:11:44):

Anna Grigoryan,

Asbed (01:11:45):

who is a member of the Armenian parliament with the Hayastan Dashinq.

Asbed (01:11:50):

block, I guess, since they are elected and they are in the parliament.

Asbed (01:11:54):

She does not have a party affiliation.

Asbed (01:11:57):

Like she says, she's not an ARF member.

Asbed (01:11:58):

She is a member of the faction.

Asbed (01:12:02):

For more information,

Asbed (01:12:03):

you can go to our show notes,

Asbed (01:12:05):

podcasts.Groong.org/episode-number and click the links.

Hovik (01:12:13):

thanks for staying with us folks uh before you go please don't forget to like

Hovik (01:12:17):

comment and share and make sure you're subscribed we do appreciate it and we hope

Hovik (01:12:24):

that we can continue bringing interesting programs such as this one to you in the

Hovik (01:12:28):

future and

Hovik (01:12:30):

And one way you can increase the likelihood of that happening is by sending us also

Hovik (01:12:36):

monetary donations,

Hovik (01:12:37):

which help us increase our reach.

Hovik (01:12:39):

You can do that through podcasts.Groong.org.

Hovik (01:12:43):

And you can use either Buy Me A Coffee or Patreon to become a regular subscriber

Hovik (01:12:49):

that helps us tremendously.

Hovik (01:12:51):

Thank you very much in advance.

Hovik (01:12:53):

I am Hovik Manucharyan, unfortunately still from Occupied Yerevan.

Asbed (01:12:58):

I'm Asbed Bedrossian in Los Angeles.

Asbed (01:13:01):

We'll talk to you soon.

Hovik (01:13:02):

Have a great day.

Head Shot

Asbed Bedrossian

Co-host
Head Shot

Hovik Manucharyan

Co-host
Head Shot

Anna Grigoryan

Guest

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