✨“brands: promise a value - promise of expectation”💫 — Annemarie Cross
Tune in to an interesting and delightful conversation with Annemarie Cross about all things personal branding.
Get insights of
💡what makes a brand distinguishable, uncopiable, and irresistible
💡the meaning of authenticity in the context of personal branding
💡how our money mindset influences us in being a strong personal brand
💡And, of course, get all the advice on becoming the best version of yourself.
💡Lastly we also adventure into the realm of podcasting. Annemarie gives tips for starting a podcast and points out common pitfalls to avoid when doing so.
Annemarie Cross is also the CEO and Founder of Ambitious Entrepreneur Podcast Network and Industry Thought Leader Academy, and the author of Industry Thought Leader: From Invisible to Influential (and Profitable) with a Podcast.
Dubbed ‘The Podcasting Queen,’ she is an award-winning podcast host and is recognized as a pioneer in the podcasting space having started her first co-hosted podcast in 2008. Her podcasts have been syndicated on both National and International Radio and listed among the top podcasts for Entrepreneurs and small businesses worldwide.
Recognized as one of the Top 20 Business Coaches in Melbourne - Australia, she works with consultants and coaches around the world helping them create distinguishable, uncopiable, and irresistible brands so they're seen as not just A choice – but THE choice with their ideal clients.
📹 Watch us on YouTube: https://youtu.be/OYrcikWkuBo
Get in touch with Annemarie Cross
Get in touch with Brigitte Bojkowszky:
Ready for brand stories? Get inspired and learn from thought leaders, CEOs, business owners, and managers who tell their brand stories who share their valuable firsthand insights. Welcome to BrandsTalk, I am your host Brigitte Bojkowszky. I’m the founder and owner of Bridget Brands, a branding strategy boutique. I help my clients craft meaningful strategies that effectively elevate their brands to unleash their full potential to shine. For all Brand Lovers, this show is to help you develop and grow your brand in a more strategic, intentional, and most of all authentic way, locally and globally, whether it is your personal brand or company brand, your product or service level brand. Walk the talk. Let’s get started and dive with me into the world of brands. Today, I have a very special guest. She is a personal branding and podcast strategist and business coach. She's also the CEO and founder of ambitious entrepreneur Podcast Network and industry thought leader Academy and the author of industry thought leader from invisible to influential with the podcast, adept at podcasting queen she is an award winning podcast host and is recognised as a pioneer in the podcasting space. Having started her first co host pod cast already in 2008. Her podcasts have been syndicated on both national and international radio and listed among the top podcasts for entrepreneurs and small businesses worldwide, recognised as one of the top 20 business coaches in Melbourne, Australia. She works with consultants and coaches around the world, helping them create distinguishable uncopyable and irresistible brands. So they are seen as not just a choice, but that choice with their ideal clients. I warmly welcome Annemarie Cross! Welcome to BrandsTalk. It's a pleasure to be here. Thank you so much for that wonderful introduction. Yeah, it's such a privilege having you on my podcast and Marie. It's really an honour. So I'm really excited to have you as my distinguished guest. So before we dive deep into all things, personal branding, could you tell us a little bit about your background, about your journey, and why you have started your own business? So how was your journey? How was it experiencing setting it up? What were some challenges, obstacles, hurdles you had to overcome? And what went really, let's say rather smoothly and easy peasy? Yeah. Okay. So my first entrepreneurial journey, I'd have to say is probably when I was a young, young girl, and I share a story about what are you thinking about entrepreneur, it's about generating opportunities, generating income, I was very young, and I was rummaging through my father's bedside drawer table, and I found a pair of his old dentures. And immediately my mind is thinking, tooth fairy, money, teeth, lots of opportunity there. So I hid that those dentures under my pillow that night, but was very disappointed the next morning, when there was no money there. So I think that was my very first disappointment. But then moving through to my young teenage years, we moved to a farm. And my parents have always instilled in me that if you want something, you work for it, they were Dutch originally, and even my older brothers were always if you want something, you work for it, you know, rather than just get a handout so that really those young teenage years where I had a horse, I had multiple streams of income, and you know, babysitting, cleaning houses, selling manure, all of those things. And what my parents instilled in me, I think, really held me in good stead for when I opened my business, which was several years later after I left the workforce and decided to start a family had my first child and a cut up, but I think 18 months, I thought, you know, I love being a mum. However, I'm sure that there's opportunities then I can reenter the workforce or keep myself busy. And you know, with computers, we bought a computer and the rest is history. So I started my very first business as a secretarial service, continued night school and started recognising I had a real passion in the careers industry. But one of the things that I found difficult was to build a business, particularly when the online space started coming along. You know, the Internet was only quite new then. And a lot more wonderful technology, many of the social media tools were in here. But I, if you fast forward to today, everything that I learned through trial and error, I wish someone had given me because I ended up going back to night school, getting certifications as a career coach. And when I got my certification, they patted me on the back, congratulations, here's your certificate, you're now a verified Career Coach. Good luck. And I wish I had I've had mentors back then who were able to show me the path because I'm pretty sure that I would have not made so many mistakes, not being so frustrated, and will be far ahead than I had been. So those really the lessons that I've learned through that time is really very much what I hope to teach and share with others, you know, through my programmes, but you know, as entrepreneurs, I think we do love challenges, don't we, I mean, depending on what, what brand archetype, I'm an explorer archetype. We love new things, you know, bright, shiny objects. It's something that we can often struggle with. However, it was a bright, shiny object that I started. In my career business, it was 2008 when the global financial crisis hit. And a colleague and I were so disillusioned at the doom and gloom of mainstream media talking about job loss after job loss Worldwide, there was no hope, no possibility, but we knew things were difficult. But we also knew that it was not hopeless. So we said, we need to be the voice of hope and inspiration. So we started a podcast, back then it wasn't called a podcast, it was online, radio. And we had no idea what we were doing. But we did it anyway. Because the message and the impact we wanted to make in job seekers lives who are now struggling, that drove us forward. And we did that show for two years. Again, lots of learning through that time. But that is guess another one of those, you know, the rest is history story. Once we stopped production of that show, I continued podcasting and my business. And now full circle have now incorporated that into how I support other coaches and consultants who want to go from invisible to influential, trusted authority, particularly delivering a podcast in their business. Yeah, so that's a fantastic story. And especially, you know, you said, You are a mom, and you are a woman. And you also wanted to start your own business. So that's very courageous, because very often people think it's either or so you, you actually said, Why not combining both of it, I do not have to choose, I can do both, and bringing everything under one umbrella and, you know, going into a new field, like online, so that that was our online teaching online courses, online coaching everything online. That is very, very courageous. Because as you say, you didn't know what's what's going to happen. And you did it anyway. And I think that takes a lot of courage, and braveness. So when you start a business, you always have to have a vision. So that's the first thing that you have to basically lay out and and go for, and, and a purpose, the reason for its existence, the big why, you know, the Northstar. So what was that for you? Actually? Interesting, I should say that, because if I look back, I never really penned or took the time to seriously document and clarify my vision and purpose. Till many years later, after I'd had, you know, kind of iteration after iteration of business and I say, iteration through iteration because I love learning as many of us as coaches do. There are different modalities, different techniques, different tools that we can use with clients. And so what I tended to do, looking back in hindsight, I think hindsight can be a wonderful teacher. One of the things that I tended to do was looking back was my brand and my message did get watered down because of the fact that I was consistently learning. I didn't have what I now call a clear umbrella statement. And that umbrella statement really is something that is a promise of value and a promise of expectation, what your clients are looking for and how you can help them so that that umbrella statement could solidify all of the different components and areas that I could support them with, for instance, in the career in history. I was doing resume writing, interview coaching, career coaching online coaching. And it's interesting that you said about being courageous because I know many businesses or a number of businesses, particularly changemakers, who I'd love to work with, they're challenging the status quo in their industry. They're doing things differently, because the way that they see things done, or there's a gap in the market, they are seeking for a solution. And often the solution isn't there. So they end up having to create it themselves. And then they realise, oh, my goodness, so many more people are looking for this solution too. But at the same time, their industry and maybe even those close to them, and their professional association, may say to them, what are you doing? That's what happened to me? Why are you starting a podcast? Why are you doing email coaching? Or phone coaching? We didn't have Skype or any of those technologies. What are you doing setting up a website, it was very new. But I knew that I needed to seek the mentors that would support me in that. So I went outside of Australia and looked for mentors in the US who are already doing it. And I thought, well, if someone else is doing it, there must be technologies, I have to find out what they are, despite what my industry was doing here in Australia. And I just trusted my gut. So that was a huge lesson that I learned. And you know, we'd love to share with your audience. And so the lessons, I think about the vision, which is getting back to your your question, in hindsight, if I hadn't done that earlier, I think I would have been far more focused on the projects that I decided to do under that umbrella leading me forward in that one direction. Because often, you know that there's a saying isn't there, I think it's also in the Bible, those without a vision perish. And as a business owner, it's because we're waving from here to another, we see a bright, shiny object, we launch another programme. And then before long, people are thinking, Well, are you doing this? Or are you this, you're actually doing both of those, but it sits under how you can support clients. And it wasn't till would have been about good. Seven years ago, I had a business venture that I partnered with someone. And we had a seven figure pipeline, unfortunately, that business came to an end. And after that time, I was left thinking, what am I going to do, and I, I joined a business network. And we spent four solid months working on vision, values mission, and I thought, I really need to settle down and think about what next. And that has been my vision and mission. But all of these seven years, and it continues to be my vision now, you know, impacting the world making a difference, one message, one podcast at a time. And, you know, my my vision is to impact the lives of 1 billion people. So a lot of people however, I work with incredible changemakers, who are also part of their community impacting people. So collectively, we're impacting that number. But that's been the vision that I've been working towards, you know, for the last seven years. So vision and mission are so important. Exactly. And also, because you want to be more intentional with your business, you're much faster because you have an orientation, that's where you want to go. That is that is your goal. That's your objectives that you want you're going to strive for, right? So also the title of our of our podcast, every episode is about being how to be distinguishable and copyable and irresistible. So what is the single thing that only you can provide as a business owner, as a business coach? And as such a podcast that you are? Yes. And look, this is something that I think every single one of us, particularly as service based businesses, we can often look at what other people are doing and think how on earth can I compete what's very unique about me, however, it's often the journey that we've travelled, the challenges that we've overcome the systems, the steps, the processes that we've implemented, to move from point A to B, and so on those teachings if we take the time to identify what they are, and then systematise them and then bring them out so we can teach them and share them and others can then adopt and learn those particular tools and techniques and so forth. That then is really going to set us apart from what other people are doing. You know, so often we hear marketers say, Well, you have to be the best you have to dominate your industry. And I always say, look, it's not saying that we're better than everybody else. We're better placed to support them. Because the journey that we've walked who we are our mannerisms, our characteristics, our charisma just connects well with our ideal clients and they resonate with us they love the style in the experience. that we create. And often it's the things that make us unique and uncopyable that we don't really recognise as being unique, and being something that can be of immense value, and therefore we don't clarify it. And we don't consistently do that, you know, and how we do our work and how we bring our message forward. So for me, you know, I look at the various experiences that I've had. And through the personal branding, which I brought from the career industry, then working with entrepreneurs, and then business strategy and marketing. But then, of course, podcasting, but not just podcasting, how do I build a podcast or create a podcast that helps me build my reach with my ideal client? A reputation is that trusted authority creates such a unique experience, listener experience, that as you continue to have your show, whether you're interviewing guests, or whether you're doing a solo show, you are nurturing your ideal client, who's your audience member, along the customer journey, so that they get to a point where they go, I have been listening to Brigitte brands podcast, I love Gouda says, I'm going to take that next action step, you know, when you invite that on your call to action on your on your podcast. And so creating a podcast like that, it's easy, I say, it's easy to launch a podcast, just like it's pretty easy to launch a business. But to launch a business that's profitable and scalable, something that you can sell as an asset down the track that you can step away from and the business still runs. Because you've got team and processes. There's strategy, and there's, you know, systems and so forth. Similarly to a podcast, it's very easy to start a podcast to do live stream, but a live stream and a podcast that does build reach reputation, revenue, as you nurture listeners into lead that becomes the where the strategy is so very important. And that's what I love to support clients with. Okay, so since you are an award winning podcast host, do you have, let's say, some tips and tricks for us that how to start maybe three tips that are most important, and maybe three common pitfalls to avoid then starting a podcast? Absolutely. So the very first podcast, as I said, that I created, we assumed that if we started sharing a show our content that people would listen, and then they would think I want to work with Anne Marie, or I want to work with Keith, who was my co host at the time. However, as we know, things happen. There are so much information so that by the time they got to their office or back to their home, they would have forgotten, you know, us. So you need to imagine that your podcast is where you journey alongside your ideal client, however, you don't just assume that they know what the next step is going to be. So I always say to people, you start with the end in mind, where do you want to position yourself? How are you going to be very unique, right from even the name of your podcast, because you may just be creating a saleable asset. I started my shows ambitious entrepreneur show, which you have also been a guest on. And for a long time, after I'd produced that show for a number of years, I put a pause on it. And so when I announced it on Facebook, I had over half a dozen people message me at the time and say, Would you consider us consider selling your podcast? Now, I was shocked that anyone would even reach out, let alone want to even consider purchasing it by podcast. But I recognise that this podcast was seen as an asset, you know, something that someone would consider, and it would have been something that I certainly could have passed on to someone because the name that I had was not personally branded to me, you know, and I some people call their show their own name, which if that is the strategy that they want to really build their personal brand, then certainly create a podcast that's around your name. But if you think your podcast is also a channel, a vehicle, platform, that is a long side, the business you know, process and the audience and the you know, the other things that are so important that you create an a business down the track, that could be a saleable asset, something that really does attract someone else, and they think, yep, we can take that over. So, you know, end in mind, what are you going to call your podcast name? I worked with a client once who worked was working with an SEO team and they'd identified some key words that they were going to use as part of the SEO building and I recognise that a combination of those words would make an incredible podcast name. So that means every time the podcast name was stated, and even, you know, he put PE releases Another show, that would be an other trigger for that SEO keyword and key phrase. So all of those things you need to think, what's the end in mind? Where are you directing clients to? Where are you really building that audience and how you're going to get those people off your podcast and onto your list. And I always say to people start off with a three part podcast series. First, it's a, it's a tactic that we teach. Because if someone's listened to your show, and they think I really love the way that that host, engaged, shared content, I'm gonna listen to another show, and they often will listen to another, and we'll listen to another and then all of a sudden, we've subscribed, we probably binge listened to the entire series that they have. And then when we hear that multiple times, and we hear them consistently say, the call to action we are they're signing up for that free thing, Podcast Series is a great way because if we're listening to a podcast, we're obviously love the audio content. So give someone content in the way that they're consuming the original content, so a podcast. And so that begins the journey, you know, so there's a whole lot of strategy in that that a lot of people don't think about first. So start with the end in mind, have a strong call to action to get people off the podcast onto your list, so that you can continue to nurture them. And then lastly, I would say, keeping this in the theme of a personal brand. Remember that you may have a topic that hundreds or even millions of other podcasts are talking about, but no one has your voice. No one has your vision, no one has your values. No one has walked your journey. No one has your life, all of those unique aspects that we know that are so important that make up a personal brand, get clear on that be intentional, and bring that forward each and every episode. And that's how you can create a unique listener experience that is distinguishable and uncopyable. Because nobody else can copy all of those things, because it's not unique to them. And even though you may be talking about, you know, similar things on your podcast, but I would spend time on that, because that really does create that listener experience. And as we know, listener experience, will enable you to build, you know, that know, like and trust, which is so important, as part of the relationship building process with an ideal client. Absolutely. That's so important. And I love how you have talked about your single thing that you bring to the world to be distinguishable. And it's not being better than anyone else. It's just occupying a specific spot in the mind of our audience. And yeah, so this humanity, that we are the human character, and blended with all of our capabilities and skills and our experience that we have made throughout our life, that that's who we are, and sometimes, and as you say, we come across when we are talking about our experiences and show who we are, that means that we have to also be open to vulnerability, then in that way we are authentic, and that takes time to really develop that and give ourselves permission to do so. So since you are such a strong personal brand and thought leader, so in your opinion, what does being an authentic personal brand mean to you? It is so important, and I'm sure you have heard and this has been going on for many years. So many marketers talking about authenticity, and I wrote an article that would have been goodness, a good seven or so years ago, where I did some research and some people were calling it a fad, that it's just the buzzword, you know, personal brand and authenticity, just a buzz word. And then others were saying, well, that person is a very mean and nasty person is that authentic to them. And I kind of addressed some of those, you know, those presumptions, you know, if someone is talking about authenticity, it's not if they're angry, or whatever, rude. That's just inexcusable behaviour. I think. Authenticity to me, is a combination of a number of different things. It's you know, your attitude, your approach your core values, you know, that that really drive who you are, if integrity and excellence and boldness and that's really a courageous, if that's really important to you, that's naturally then going to come through in how you approach things. And that's very much going to approach the words you use, the mannerisms, you know, your body language, all of those different things when you're consistently on brand. Then you also have things such as some of the unique mannerisms. I'll give you an example my co host that I started my very first post podcast with, he has a laugh that when he laughs If he was in a room, people would go, they do, they would stop. And they would look, you know, we all know someone who has that kind of laugh. And even online, and we knew that if he was to do that laugh, we needed to just take a pause, because it's going to go on for a little while. But he got such a reputation of the laugh that people would say, well, it's not been a show till Keith has had one of his belly laughs You know, and that has just lived, you know, with him through the many other podcasts that he's done as well, that was just unique to him, something that was a little bit, you know, unique little, those little idiosyncrasies, but it was just him, you didn't try to hide it, it was authentic to him. But that was just the type of person that he was. And I say that because sometimes we look for the things that we don't look at the things that are quite unique, that just make us us a sense of humour, being able to look at things differently, do that all the time, you know, to twist to, to transform thinking, you know, these kinds of things, if that's very much uniquely you, that becomes part of your personal brand, because your personal brand is your reputation. It's what people think about you, it's what they say about you, hopefully in a nice way, but you would not agree to that it can also be negative, you know, your personal brand can be negative or positive. And guess what we can impact what that through our approach, can't we, how we show up daily, every day, every week, every month, every year. If we do that consistently, yeah, we have it in our hands of how we create value to our audience, and we have it in our hands to make a difference in their lives. And I think that is about personal branding. And that is about perception. Beautiful. And also there is this, as we now have learned, there's so many different factors tying into personal brand building. And there's one more that you have been done research on and I think also the training on, it's about our money mindset. So I would love you to dive a little bit deeper into that specific aspect of personal branding. And how I am. I'd love to share the reason why this really fascinated me was when I was in the career industry and working with individuals, executives, professionals, often who were looking for opportunities that would see them be promoted, whether it was internally or whether it was in another company. And it was really interesting to see the different characteristics, and how people would approach their negotiation, even the way in which they perceived what they did, from being so humble, that it was almost embarrassing, if I can say it that way, because they just didn't own it, they just really didn't see the value. Because there's a difference between being arrogant and confident, arrogant, just you know, when you know, someone walks through the door, and half an hour later their head comes through because it's so big, it takes a while to come through. We all know those kind of people. But confidence, just because this is what we do. These are the action steps that I put, these are the things that I put together. And this is the impact that it has made. And I noticed that as well, that was reflected very much in the negotiation of salary. So that often what people would do in the career industry is they would go for different jobs. And if they didn't, you know, wasn't successful, a number of times, many of them said, Well, I'm going to start my own business. Because I've hit the glass ceiling, there's no opportunities, and so on and so forth. But what they didn't realise was the same mindset that kept them stuck in the career industry, they brought with them in the business. And how it showed up was putting together packages, pricing, having negotiations with potential customers, and it actually was even more elevated. Because in a career of course, you're paid your weekly wage, monthly wage and so forth, is in a business. If you're unable to enrol clients and sell, it becomes pretty quickly you'll become aware very quickly that there's something that needs to be addressed with your money mindset. And so, to me also as well, it was interesting where people with similar you know, experience very highly experienced, you'd have some that would be quite highly paid and others that word. You had people that had massive big contracts, but at the end of that contract, whatever it might be 12 months, they had hardly any money left. So all of that was quite fascinating that you and behaviour around money mindset. So I've realised that, you know, each and every one of us mindset has shaped particularly around money about what we observe and what we hear, as you know, as children. And often what we do is that observation of how our parents or those close those close people to us how they handled money, there's either two ways that we can do that we can take on their habits and behaviours. And so we continue to, you know, to live that cycle and those habits, or we can rebel. And for me, I was more of a rebel, a rebel or my, I rebelled, I should say, not rebel. So my parents grew up in a war, the second world war, they were from Holland. So they very much had to be careful. So they had scarcity. They were very much accumulators, you know, in their money archetypes. And so they were very careful, you know, in what they spent. And so I still remember that, anytime I wanted something, my mom would always say, we've got that we've got that. And I would see other people who were my friends, their parents would buy them things. I remember a significant time, when my parents were getting married, not married, they were having their I think it was their 40th wedding anniversary. And I wanted a new dress. And my mother said, you don't need a new dress, you've got plenty of new dresses. I was adopted, by the way. So I was a lot younger people are thinking, how could she not have been working when they were married for two years. So I remember my sister in law saying to my parents, why don't you give her some pocket money, then she can be in charge of her own money. And she can go and buy her own things. And I tell you, I rebel, but every time I got pocket money, I would save it up and I would buy the dresses, I would buy lots of different things. So I rebel. And that then showed up in my business, in buying the, you know, bright shiny objects and things like that. So it's interesting that that was formed in those earlier years, how my parents are about, if I see something, I like it, I want it, I'll buy it, you know, so I had to work through that, too. Because to me, being told no, meant that I wasn't loved, which was absolutely ridiculous. You know, I knew my parents loved me. But as a child, at that time, I didn't have the resources that I do now. I thought well, other people are getting new dresses, because their parents love them. So my parents probably don't and so when you realise that you heal, that you're able to not create those money habits and the beliefs around them that can keep you stuck. And it shows up in so many different ways depending what money archetype, the nurturing archetype, as the name nurture and the you know, what the mean is around nurture, you want to help. You want to, you want to be supportive, as as much as you can. But a nurture can overextend when we overextend a strength becomes a weakness. And so the nurturer may show up, that they extend, you know, an invoice the client hasn't paid for 30 days, well, it's coming in the mail, well, I'll extend another and then another. And then before long, you've got these huge debt that your customers haven't paid that really, you should have put a plan together. Similarly, it'll show up, you know, often in the people pleasing. So the archetypes are incredible, because we're only as strong as our weakest link, which is, as the saying goes, as we know. And so if some of the, your money archetypes, the strengths, or the shadow side, or what I call shadow side, could hold you back, you're not going to raise your prices, because your money mindset is going to validate that you're not worth it. Because someone said no. But actually, that person wasn't your ideal client, if you really would see past that. So money mindset is everything. And what that's one of the things that my mentors told me years ago, when I was doing the certification, how money shows up for you in your life is often in predicament of how other things are happening in your life as well. And if that's a struggle, you could generate, you know, millions in your business. Yet, if it's, you know, there's a lot of gaps, if there's a lot of holes in the bucket, so to speak, it'll drain through and there won't be any profit for you. So I think, you know, whilst we're doing marketing, and that's really important in our business, we also have to look at well, how's the money mindset? How is that supporting the growth of the business? And in some instances, not. So it's important to work on that as well. It's really systemic and our beliefs and our mindset is created in our childhoods. We have to really go back there and see what's going on what is the root cause that is holding me back, working with appropriate money mindset when you are starting out with your own business. So from a corporate employee to a business owner, there is a huge shift in money mindset in all the different respects. And so we are transitioning. And do you have maybe three tips for someone who is stepping into the courage and own it to start his or her own business? Do you have any tips that will help them with a money mindset shift? Yeah, I'm really important money mindset shift, which I learned going through the process is that we need to see what we do as valuable. Because if we don't see it as valuable, it's going to be very difficult for us to be confidently portraying that to our clients. And I'll give you an example. When I was in the career industry, I spent many 1000s of dollars and many months learning how to create an award winning resume, I then ended up winning some awards for it. But it took me time, and commitment. And many, many months and after years of developing that. So when I first started my business as a secretarial service, I was charging $25 for a resume, this is going back many, many years. Then I upped my price, you know what I upped it to $35 for a resume that was going way back before I did any of the certifications. Then when I went through the certifications, I started charging packages, that's another thing as well, you know, as coaches often. So let's go back to the the mindset of the shift, people would ring me, you know, on the phone back, then it's a bit different now it's through the website, but then ring and the first question they would often ask is, how much do you charge? And often I would give it a fe. But the thing is, by just providing the fee, I haven't found out more about the client, what were their needs? Do I, you know, am I able to support them, they don't even know what comes in to a resume, they just think that someone's putting dates and names. And that's all there is. So I need to educate them. And so that mindset shift comes from you, it has to start from you first. And then you have a process through which you guide that client so that they understand really Oh, it's not just something that you can whip together, that's what I often would hear them say, Look, you can just throw it together. And I would say to them, Look, this is what we do. Ours is about getting, you know, opportunities, and some of our clients have doubled their income, got an extra 20,000 per income, if that's the kind of thing that you're looking for, to get that dream job and to get paid what you're worth, um, your your your career coach. But if you're just wanting someone to type up a document, I've got some great recommendations of secretarial services. So being able to have that conversation, that so that's the first thing, the value has to start with you. If you can't see it, then it's going to be very hard for clients to see that. Secondly, when you're starting a business, particularly as a service based business, often we negate the experience and not just experience in the business that we've had. You're there offering often services and expertise that has been developed through years decades often, of teaching of being in the workplace of experience, I mean experience, and that University of hard knocks, you can't get that through looking through going through a university degree. I mean, then the amount of of organisations that I've worked with, who have said they often get, you know, interns or young graduates that then say everything that you've learned at uni, forget that this is what we do in the real world, you know, and so often, sometimes we don't have a degree in something, but you've got a degree in many, many years working in the workplace, don't negate that that's valuable. And all of that gets put together in a package. And so that was a huge lesson that I learned, particularly for a coach or a consultant, that your time is not just the 10 minutes, or the hour or the two hours or however long your programme is or time that you spend a client. It is the years that you've spent that has led you down the path where you are today. So you need to put packages together rather than just well. It's only going to take you an hour, you know you charge by the hour. Because often then we're seen as a commodity, aren't we? When someone speaks with your ideal client and start to look at well, how many hours is that? Because you could spend five minutes or 10 minutes speaking with an ideal client and instantly know where to look or what questions to ask or where to direct them to, which is on the back of 20 years of experience that you have. And I think we often forget that don't we? And so that is going to impact the price you charge the investment that someone is going to win invest in themselves through investing in your experience. And I think that's huge. And if people can understand that right at the beginning, it's going to shift the way in which they put together programmes, packages for their clients, as well as the conversations that they have. And the last one that I would call, the last tip is, not everyone is your ideal client. Now, if you are wanting to, you know, see and work with different clients, because at the moment, you need to then go ahead and do that work with people. And hopefully, you won't get an ideal client that puts you off starting a business altogether. But you will find that you do your best work with a specific type of client, you know, and so, in business, we often don't spend time and recognising who that is, and we take on anyone. And often it's the people that we say yes to that, we end up realising they're not my ideal client, they're not doing the work. And they're not implementing what they're supposed to do. And that will end up draining you energetically. And, you know, it's not a win win for the client, either, because they're not, they're never going to do the work anyway. So be discerning who is your ideal client recognise who that is? Who do you do your best work with? And if you're speaking to a prospective customer, and you realise they're not, and could work better with someone else, go and refer them to someone else? Don't work with everybody, because not everyone is your ideal client. Fantastic. These tips are invaluable. I think you are so right, really knowing about your ideal client, have a certain niche in the market, and you start out very small, but be sure you have the ideal client that you can work with, and that you can really help make a difference in the world. And just, if we if we try to appeal to everyone, as we know, we are not serving anyone. So Anna Marie, one more question, I would really like to ask you, are you willing to share any experience that was a major learning for you? That was significant in the way that it shaped you and continues to shape you? Yes. Well, I hinted to that earlier, where, you know, my worst business failure ever, which was now I am able to say it was the best thing that ever happened to me a number of things, I realised, we're all contributors to an end result, we have to take ownership of that. And for me, the reason why it was such a great lesson, it was because as I mentioned, it really had me take a step back and evaluate, how did I get here? What do I need to do to move forward and I have, I have a kind of a motto, and it's how I kind of live my life, you know, I look at a situation and I looked, as I looked at that, when I thought, well, this situation has the ability to make me or break me. And breaking me is never an option, it is never an option. So I guess I'm gonna have to put my, you know, pull my socks up and work forward. And so that was when I saw a couple of things I've already mentioned about how I got clear on my vision and mission, and values and purpose. And that really has continued to stay with me today. And I recognise that that was very much part of why I started my career coaching business, helping people make a much bigger impact in the world, because I love their role, you know, rather than in a role that they hated. So it was throughout my life, actually my career. But a second thing that happened was, I knew that I needed to take some time out and really evaluate. So I got the very most most highly investment invested coach that I've ever invested in. And I needed that, you know, for the mindset, because I knew that it had the ability to change one of my core values, which is trust, you know, and I did not want to go through life being jaded because I knew that that would change my money mindset, it would really cause something, a cycle that I did not want to repeat. And then the the other thing that I did was, I started Women in Leadership podcast as a way to deal with my grief and loss. I thought, I'm going to surround myself with incredible women who have also gone through feel through failure. I'm going to learn from them. But a very interesting thing happened. three episodes in, I accidentally generated two forefinger clients. And it wasn't till a number of years later that I thought, here's a podcast that I started as a way to deal with my grief and loss. And I got two clients from it. Whereas in 2008, we were trying to get clients so we thought what was important what needed to be there and that led me on a journey to to identify what were the steps set these two women who know nothing about me, Google brand business consultant, come to my website, look around, and listen to the three podcast episodes and decide we want to work with Anne Marie. And that's kind of what I've captured in my book and the programmes that I now teach. And so that worst business value ever, has now created the principles, the teachings and methodologies, all of the things that I now teach, because I recognise that it was something that I did to move forward. And it's often been, you know, throughout my life, you know, a situation will either make me or break me, and situations not going to break me, I'll find a way I'll find a way through, I'll problem solve it, it may look a little, you know, quite different, and how I expected but I'm going to learn from it, and I'm gonna win. That that's kind of my, my motto. And that's where I am today. It's led me to the path where I am today. Yeah, it's really important. And I think whether it breaks us or if we go forward with it, it's the question of how we use that experience. What are we doing with such a setback, it's more or less a redirection to something else. It's something that helps us to leap forward to make even bigger steps. It's an integral part of our being of our experience. And I think also we become better servants with integrating this setbacks into our life. It's so true. You know, so often, as business owners, we, we don't like the word failure. And we know that we've got those mottos and, you know, fail forward, and so forth. But deep down, every single time, something does not turn out, as we would have hoped, there are some emotional things around that there's those disappointments, and getting back to the archetypes, the money archetype and the brand archetypes. I'm a ruler. And I needed to do that because rulers, we are driven, we are very focused, we're quite competitive. But anytime we fail, you know, if we look at it as failure on a failure, you know, all of that, it's not helpful. But if I look at it, okay, what can I do differently? Let's have a look, what can I do? You know, what did I What can I do better? What really did work, and I need to continue to do moving forward. When I looked at it that way, every single challenge, and every single failure actually becomes the foundation upon which I can stand. You know what I mean? And that is the other day I was working with, with coaches, or with my mentor, and there was some things and I just said to them, Look, you can't offend me just say what you need to say. And I had a huge breakthrough through that. And it was because, you know, sometimes the things that we are here to learn can be the biggest transformation, but not if we're not willing to look at it. And to ask to be curious, is this the lesson is this is something that I'm repeating? Yes, it is, well, how can I change that, okay, you know, and sometimes it can be the lesson, you know, a paradigm shift for us. So that's a lesson that repeats itself. However, we can get quicker and recognising it and shifting through that. And just be curious, because each time you'll get stronger for it, and you'll build the character that you can have incredible challenges, but you know, that this is just for a time just for a season, you'll get through it. As long as you know, you've got those the support and the structure in place to know that you will move through that. So yeah, bring it on, I say. Absolutely. Thank you, Anna Marie. So we are almost at the end of our show. And I would like to do a very quick vert wrap with you. Are you ready for that? Okay. Okay. Then women, women, leading the world, leadership, leadership servanthood leadership. empowerment. Empowerment comes from within, so that you can empower inspire others beautiful Money, money, money is not evil. This is one that I learned money is not evil, or it won't make you evil, it will just exacerbate what is already inside you anyway, you know, around the whole money mindset. If you were if you were unhelpful if you were a student that you can't Money cannot make you something that you're not already so that was a long answer, but I could go on and on. There's so many lessons around money that we can talk about. It's just an energetic, it's ended. What did you think about money? You know, for some people they can Think of it as evil but it's not evil. It's what you know what it causes somebody to be and if they're already evil in the way that they handle money, that's the way that they were unfortunately to begin with, we have to do another session just about money. Yeah, last but not least, brands, brands promise a value promise of expectation. Okay, good. Annamarie where can listeners find you and to get in touch with you? Well, my website is industry thought leader academy.com Or I'm across the various various socials, particularly LinkedIn and recross would love to connect. And if people would love to listen to you as well on my podcast is the ambitious Entrepreneur Show. Beautiful. Anna Marie, thank you so much for being my guest today. And again, it really was an honour having you here and learn from your perspective on personal branding and money mindset and podcasting. Thank you, Anna Marie. Thank you. And that was my conversation with Anna Marie cross. If you like my show, follow BrandsTalk on your preferred app, share it on social media, and if you find a minute or two leave a quick rating or review. Thank you so much! If you want to learn more about me head over to BridgetBrands.com and get inspired. If you need support in becoming a strong and truly authentic brand, whether it is your personal or company drop me an email. I’d love to be your guide on your hero journey. I hope you will stay tuned in on the next episode when we dive into the world of brands.