BrandsTalk

How to Brand for Social Purpose w/Katja Marianne Noordam

January 11, 2022 Brigitte Bojkowszky Season 5 Episode 56
BrandsTalk
How to Brand for Social Purpose w/Katja Marianne Noordam
Show Notes Transcript

✨“Brands: Personality. Brand personality is such a nice concept to work with. Don't treat branding as a marketing thing, as an abstract, technical thing that you have to do. It's really something that you are.”💫 — Katja Marianne Noordam

This episode is an incredibly interesting interview around branding for social purpose with social impact strategist and coach, Katja Marianne Noordam

Katja dives into how purpose-driven entrepreneurs and small and medium-sized companies can plan, measure and increase their positive social impact.

In specific, Katja is telling about:

  • her positive impact stories of her time living in Colombia, her take aways from these extraordinary experiences, and 
  • how she is now supporting companies shifting their focus on providing their services in a socially purposeful way, moreover
  • her perspective on the importance of being authentic in what we are doing as a company but also as a personal brand!

Watch us on YouTube: https://youtu.be/oBCsvfS8fTg 

Get in contact with Katja Marianne Noordam:

Get in touch with Brigitte Bojkowszky:

*   exclusive 1-on-1 personal branding coaching: https://bridgetbrandsdigital.newzenler.com/courses/exclusivecoaching
*   from employee to business owner - ‘Own Your Brilliance’ course waitlist: https://bridgetbrandsdigital.newzenler.com/oybwaitlist 
*   Website: www.bridgetbrands.com 
*   Calendly Link: https://calendly.com/bridgetbrands/30min 
*   LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/bojkowszkyb/ 
*   Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/brigitte.bojkowszky 
*   Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/bridgetbrands  
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*   Pinterest: https://www.pinterest.com/BridgetBrands 
*   significant women book: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0927YG1FH


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For more info visit: BridgetBrands.com

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Ready for brandstories et inspired and learn from hought leaders, CEOs, business wners, and managers who tell heir brandstories who share t eir valuable insights from t eir own experience. Welcome to B andsTalk. I'm your host B igitte. For brand lovers this s ow is to help you develop and g ow your brand in a more s rategic and sustainable way. W at the talk, let's get started nd dive with me into the world f brands. I'm so excited to have Katya Marianne Noordom as my gues today. She is Dutch Belgian b Origin and a gold citizen b choice. always interested i crossing frontiers. In he personal and professional life She has worked and lived i different countries on differen continents. Several years ago Katya launched fair change. Wit this service providing busines she helps purpose drive entrepreneurs and small an medium sized companies plan measure and increase you positive social impact. She i also founder and owner of Ka mondo media which started in 2001. At Cadman the media Her mission is to provide organisations combining profit and purpose with communications and branding strategies that tell their positive impact stories in a captivating way. With the two enterprises fair change and Katmondo media apture both on the lessons she earned in her previous career n the social and international evelopment sector. She now uses er experience with leadership evelopment of vulnerable roups, sustainability and cross ultural communications to help ocal and global businesses be uccessful agents of positive ocial change. I warmly welcome atja Noordam, welcome to Brand talk. Hi, Bridget. Wow, I love how you did that introduction. You're my best investor. Really happy to be here. We have been planning this for a long time and many things came in between but I'm really happy that we we made it and we're chatting online now for interested audiences. And yeah, I hope to share some of my learnings and experiences and always happy of course to have your input also, and your insights, which makes for wonderful conversations. Always. I'm a follower of your podcasts and your lives now that you recently started doing so yeah, I congratulate it. I congratulate you for that. I'm an admirer of yours. So oh my goodness. Katya. Thank you so much. And I'm really I feel privileged. I'm honoured to have you as my guest today. Yeah, and as you said, we have known each other already for a bit we are so called Business besties severe together in an accountability group of business besties to pursue our endeavours into the online course creative businesses. So to give the audience an idea of what you're doing, Katya, you are a volt citizen by choice like I am, actually. And you recently moved back to your home country. That's the Netherlands with your 12 year old daughter after almost a decade in Colombia. Could you delve into that period of time in your life a little bit of why Colombia and what made you come back to Europe? Yeah, sure. Yeah, why Colombia? Well, that originates from a desire I had been having for a long time since I finished high school actually, or even before that, to go and live and work in Latin America. Only took me lots of Yeah, took me quite a long time life to different turns and I had several setbacks on a personal level on I cannot say on a professional level, but anyway, there were a lot of hurdles that I had to overcome before finally taking the steps. So I actually at that moment, I was I had already launched my cut Mondo enterprise which was focusing on communications for mainly I mainly worked at that moment for clients in the social sector in the not for profit sector, some public organisations, some private enterprises also. And at that time I did interesting work actually it was not I was not the mind is not the story of being fed up with your work and looking for purpose in your life I really had really interesting assignments I Yeah, worked for really interesting organisations committed as I was to promoting social good. And, but there was something nagging I wanted something more and yeah, as I said, at the start that desire to, to go and leave my country and discover Latin America, I had this, I had this this Yeah, this feeling that I wanted to be there. And I, I was, I was a shy person. When I was young, I was insecure, I was doubting a lot of things I was, yeah, I was not a really confident person. So I really kept on saying, or letting myself being told, you know, why Latin America? Why leave your home country? Why do this? What will you do there? What? What challenges will you have to confront? And so I just, you know, I didn't do it until I was, yeah, 30 something to 3132. And then I so my friends, my dear friends, buying homes, having children, investing and solid and predictable futures. And I thought, No, this is not what I want. I mean, I, this is not a live that I am seeing for me. So then I started thinking, Okay, well, if this has been in your head, this thing about going away and discovering the world and really offering what you have to offer the world in other contexts, then you really have to take some steps to do so. So I I decided I want to I wanted to work in international cooperation and human rights. And in Latin America, which I didn't know much about. But yeah, combining the two things wanting to work in, in human rights and an international cooperation in Colombia was an easy choice, because it had been the country I've been involved in 50 year long conflict. And yeah, there was a lot of human rights work to do actually. So. So I, I took first I learned Spanish, I went to Spain, I, yeah, I taught myself Spanish. And then I took the step and I went and worked with a small human rights organisation. Which, despite being tiny, Eeny meeny, did a lot of good work. And yeah, managed to, to, to create positive change for people that we accompany human rights defenders, female activist community leaders, internally displaced people. So we, yeah, we protected them. And we made it possible for them to pursue their work, we did political lobbying. So this was one of the most fulfilling jobs I I had, and I yeah, I put aside everything else to do this job, which was not a well paid job, but really, really fulfilling. Wonderful, that sounds so interesting. And you were hesitant at the beginning to leave your country. But you did this bold move anyway. And I'm sure that was really enriching and all the experience that you've gathered and kind of completes your your life and makes you ready for everything you're doing right now. Because you need exactly that experience to go forward with all what you're doing. And in 2014, you have started another company, it's called fair change. So in that way, you are in business and social impact. Coach, can you also tell us a little bit about that, and why did you start this company in the first place since you already had a company? Yeah, really? Yeah, the two enterprises are the result of two passions I have so one was communications and yeah, communicating other people's stories to, to the world, other organisations, best practices, reaching diverse audiences by communicating their positive results in in a compelling way. So that has been one passion throughout my years, but throughout my working years, I must say, and the other one was, yeah, helping organisations do social good. So when there was always this feeling when I was focusing only on communications, I, I kind of missed the the strategic part because you can communicate a lot about doing good. But if it doesn't really come from the core of your organisation of your business, then it's just a marketing message. And or you really are a socially driven organisation, but you don't plan, implement and measure your your positive social impact well, so I always when I was only focusing on communication, I missed that strategic part. And when working only on the strategic side with organisations because I've always been doing both, then I miss the communication part because they go hand in hand, I think. So I've thought, yeah, why not? launch an enterprise that focuses exactly on that complementing my other passion, my other commitment to helping organisations communicate their impact. Well, and I must add, there was really a moment that stands out for me when this really when I really realised that I had to start working with businesses because when my communications business God Mondo is focuses on different clients in different sectors, which have as a common, a common theme, wanting to do social good, but they can be profit or nonprofit or public organisations. With fair change. I really focus on the business side on enterprises on small and medium companies, sized companies, but also on larger value driven businesses. And I decided to work with businesses, because throughout all my work for social sector and nonprofit organisations, working with excluded groups, or with really vocal social leaders, helping them to be even more effective in their pursuing of their social goals. I felt I had to involve businesses too. Why? Because there was this moment when this this insight like landed on me when I was working in Colombia in one of the faraway isolated tropical regions of the country, forgotten by the rest of the world, no government authority in place. So that was really a free free zone for illegally armed groups and for businesses that really were like the the school book example of doing what I call socially irresponsible business. So they paid illegally, illegally armed groups, they paid paramilitary paramilitary groups to terrorise local communities, neighbouring communities, they that they should have a fluid relation with, but instead, they chase those people away, they took they rub their land, they didn't rub it, but they with a gun pointed at the hands of people almost literally they they paid like ridiculous amounts of money, like small money for huge pieces of land. So people went away and there were just small groups of people who decided to resist and they had no decent homes, they were living under plastic. Under plastic, they had no money to pay for shoes are for diapers for their kids. So it was really terrible, terrible. And there was no communication between the company and and the community. There was only mistrust there was only mutual, like complaints. So I thought, you know, we can do a lot working with communities empowering people to to be stronger to defend their rights. Well But we cannot stop there. We also have to work with businesses. So, yeah, we have to really convince businesses that they instead of what that this particular company, and that that particular part of the country did. They planted palm oil trees. So they had destroyed the biodiversity. And they created so many social tensions, human rights, offences, etc. So, but I mean, on the beautiful side, what could have been was a biodiverse region where company work together with a community provided jobs really added to the well being of the people. So that was the moment that just landed on me, I thought, yeah, I have to work with businesses too. And I have to use this experience that I have, with working with diverse, vulnerable communities, and have to put, I have to put that experience at the service of businesses and really creating awareness about another way of doing business and telling them about human rights and also convincing them which so much market marketing research has proven to be true. I mean, if your environment is doing well, then your business is doing better. So I mean, there's also a solid business case for doing social good. So that was the moment that this landed on me and I then I started, I did a master in corporate social responsibility at one of Colombia's top universities that has a partnership with Columbia University in the USA. And I, yeah, I launched launched myself in that area, and that work area, and that's what I've been doing since, wow, that's unbelievable. You are an extraordinary woman, you have experience that goes so deep, when it comes to social purpose when it comes to helping companies transition from let's say, just making profits into into their whole new world of also giving back something. So what is the transition? Exactly? So what are the desires that company come to you with? That you can help them? What is that? Yeah, yeah, it really, of course, depends. I mean, businesses are like people, we're all different. So really, the needs can be can be diverse, but mainly some some common threads, depending on the type of business, to my work, and to the needs of the businesses I work with? Are there are these larger businesses that have a long trajectory, a long history, and that usually we're not founded with a wish to do good. I mean, there there is representatives of what we're talking a lot about nowadays, this, this traditional economic model of shareholder economy where the main purpose of a business is making profits by being funded by investors who have no interest in creating positive social impact, but their main interests and their main eyes on that is making profits. And I mean, we can point our fingers at that now and say, yeah, how could you but that was just the way things usually were. I mean, there are exceptions are interesting, global companies that actually were founded with an additional goal of doing social good, but they're not the majority, so to say. So that is the type of company that typically comes to me asking how should we do this transition? How should we sell our social drive internally? For example, one thing that that something that often happens that there is a sustainability department, or a community relations department or whatever it's called, and they have really devoted people with a heartfelt commitment to doing good for the communities or suppliers in the supply chain of the of the business. And then there's the financial department who looks at that with suspicion and says, Yeah, but where's the return on investment of our social costs? They don't see it as a benefit. They don't see the tangible and intangible benefits that doing good brings to a company. So there can be this internal tension within a company that people ask me to help solve, or getting a team on board with an issue that is a bit abstract, if you're not from that area as human rights, I mean, what is that? Well, that's something really concrete, really day to day that you can apply in the lives of your workers of the communities, you work with your neighbours, your suppliers, but how to explain that to an internal organisation. So these are some of the things that people that larger businesses, I must say, Come to me to find to find help and of course, communicating this positive social impact that they wish to make. And then there's another Well, let me say two audiences, then there's this smaller medium sized company that already has has some trajectory. And that does a lot of social good, but they then they don't know how to plan that well, and how to showcase their positive impact and how to communicate that in a in a positive and convincing way, and how to increase that positive social impact. So that's more about working with companies that already have this drive to do good, but help them organise their, their strategies well, and then there's the startups there's, there's a lot of startups and yeah, they, there have been among them, one of the most fulfilling organisations to work with, for me. Because fortunately, many, many new companies are really fruit of this new economic model of where the shift has been from away from this shareholder capitalism to stakeholder capitalism, where it is important what your social stakeholders think what your social audiences think, and balance that with the shareholders and their interest. And even within investors, the fastest growing market within the investor market globally are the so called impact investor. So it's, it's, it's an issue that is much more mainstream and becoming more and more mainstream today than it was 10 years ago. So working with these small into entrepreneurs is often about how to find the your area of major impact, how to define that how to define your values, how to define your mission, and how to set out to create a sustainable and profitable business. while balancing balancing profits with purpose and positive impact. Yeah, great. So my question to you what is your vision and what is your purpose? Yeah, well, yeah, I mean, that must be will be no secret after we, after having heard me speak. Yeah, my my vision is to, to create a world where there is a balance between profit making and doing positive social impact, where I think we must shift away from a model where we look at each other, as businesses as communities as individuals and looking at each other and pointing at each artist saying you should do better you should do this, you, you are acting in a way that is hurting my interests, where we collaborate, where we collaborate, and I I think that we can all be more happy, happier people living in a healthier planet, if we cooperate if we cooperate between sectors and not turn our backs into to each other but really complement each other and, and use the different strengths that we that we all have. Okay, so for companies who are shifting their focus from just making money making profit, to more a purpose driven brand, to leave a legacy behind to Really focus on giving back to the society. So sometimes this transition is not easy. Where should they start? Do you have any, let's say key steps, the four pieces of advice, what? They can start with making this shift? Mm hmm. Yeah. Yeah, really start with start with why we all know that sentence. I mean, the famous Simon sign X Golden Circle. I mean, it's not, it's not a coincidence that this is such a strong message that resonates in so many sectors with so many companies really start with defining who you are, where you come from, and what difference you want to make to the world. Maybe if you are a larger company, it was not you who founded the company, maybe the founders interests, were not the socially committed interests, and engagement that the board has today, then then define that wide and recreate that why maybe you weren't born out of a social drive. But that's where you are now. So really define a strong message around that. Do not do that in a top down way really involve your internal stakeholders really involve your your employees, your different management levels. And define that, that that reason of being that you feel today, define your values, values are so incredibly important. And I mean value statements each company has done but really live them. Really make them a tangible, concrete thing in the day to day work, and operations of your business. Invite your employees to, to share the ways in which they implement those company values. They are not working with you by coincidence, they were attracted by your values because they want to have meaningful work. So if you have defined, I don't know, just to name something, honesty, or service as a value, well, how do your employees live that really have them express the way they relate to these values, because that is what makes values living things. And that really feeds into your brand personality and feeds into building trust with your internal and your external audiences with your customers. Because all too often, we see that just a nice socially driven ran stories being told, which is not really related to the core of a business or, which is like a, a screen that hides some practices that are not so socially responsible at all. So it really is about being clear and authentic in what it is you stand for. And really try to implement that in all aspects of your business. Of course, this is easier when you're a solo entrepreneur. And you have you control all different aspects of your small company, a solo entrepreneur or a smaller, medium sized company. For them, it is often more easy to control all these aspects and to have these values and this authenticity permeate all our actions. For a larger company. It's it's often a bit more difficult, but it's not impossible at all. Yeah, that brings me to the next question authenticity behind every company, whether it's a company of a small company, or a large company, behind every company brand, there is a person there are human beings and usually those are the ones that are strong personal brains. And you have two companies and you also launching a podcast soon we come to that a little bit later. And in your area, you are a thought leader you you're really making a difference for companies and to people in this world. Yeah, so now I would love to hear from you. In your opinion, what makes an authentic self what is an a strong, authentic personal brand? Yeah, I think authenticity as a brand as a personal brand is all about really defining your own unique characteristics. So that's values I already mentioned it values are so important. And it's you cannot just take some values of a list because you think they sound right? Well, you can actually do it, it is a starting point. I mean, it's a method that, that you can follow as a business, start with a list, see which words best most resonate with you. But then, then the next and the most important step is to give them your own meaning. So a value whichever word you choose, or action oriented phrase, or however you want to formulate your value statement, start with giving your values a past, a present and a future. So if, again, honesty is one of your preferred core values, okay, well, then look at your future. Where do you come from? Where does this value originate? What are some pivotal moments within your personal history or your professional history are both that really evidence that honesty hit is a driving force for you in your actions and in your decision making. So this is not an easy process, that the stakes is it's time. But these really are the foundations of the brand stories that you will tell of your brand personality. And then there is characteristics I mean, that's why the, the the word of, of brand personality is so nice, it's such a good image, because that's what we really are, as entrepreneurs, we are brand persons we are we have our values that drive us. And then we have our specific characteristics that are based on these values. And that's the way we present ourselves to the world. That's the way we act that's the business that's how we do business. That's how we contribute to a better world. So, these are really important crucial aspects of being an authentic brand. A fit authenticity as a brand is also connected to your your customer problem problem. What am I say, your customer promise, gosh, I'm introducing problems where there are no problems at all your customer promise. So, the value you create for your customer should be aligned with your core commitments with your core values as a brand to be authentic in order to be authentic. I already mentioned there too often all too often marketing stories are told with a nice social sausage like which are not sauce with a nice social sauce, which are not really that authentic, and customers will punish you for that customers will stop buying customers will turn away to other companies that they do believe in because our companies have proven to be really true to themselves. And then there is alongside this customer value proposition there is what I like to call the social value proposition. That is the promise you make to your beneficiaries do that yours be at your suppliers be your workers and their families or be at the your neighbouring communities that you want to give back to. So all these should be balanced and should be complimentary and should be true, to be really an ascetic personal brand. Thank you so much. Thank you. That is a wonderful explanation from your perspective. I love that. And you are an unstoppable man, you're not only the CEO of two company, you're also in the making of a podcast. It's called Embrace purpose, grow impact. So what is your intention? Starting your podcast? Yes, well, I have been playing with this idea for too long. I mean, many things have come in between so I didn't launch it yet. But But I I did the first several interviews with some really interesting entrepreneurs. That I will feature on the first episodes of my of my podcast. So embrace purpose grow impact is really about these two Things that I have been mentioning in our in our chat so far, like being a purpose driven business and creating real positive impact. So in my work, I've met so many entrepreneurs that have really interesting stories to tell, they can be, I don't know, a small coffee producer in the mountains in the Colombian mountains or, or they can be a medium sized health company, somewhere in the Horn of Africa, or they can be a global company that was that is really turned into a value driven or maybe founded as a really value driven company. So there are so many stories that are really interesting to tell. So that's what I like to do with, with my with my podcast. So it will be an interview based podcast. And there will be also episodes where I'll be talking subjects, because I also want to share some learnings about some some particular issues that I'm working on and that I am that I'm promoting. So what is this? What is purpose? What are values, how to develop them with some tips and advice? And yeah, what I have also found in my work with with other enterprises is that there's a real need for sharing these stories and learning from others, because I mean, creating social impact and pursuing a higher purpose. It all sounds beautiful, but it's not easy. I mean, there are a lot of dilemmas or a lot of problems or a lot of hurdles that you have to overcome to really be that authentic, socially driven brand. So there's a lot of demand for these other enterprises stories, how to other what are the dilemmas other organisations encounter, how do you do? How do they tackle them? What are their solutions? What did they struggle with? So I want to Yeah, I want to surface all those challenges that real life enterprises encounter and the innovative and creative solutions they find. So Katya, you talked about learnings. Now you as a personal socially driven brain would like to know from you, what is a major learning in your life? That was really hard for you something a detour that was significant of how it shaped you and how it makes you think and how you have grown from it going forward? Would you like to share one of your major learnings with us? Yeah, which one? Which setback? Shall I pick? There have been many learnings Yeah. Yeah, I think one of the most foundational setbacks if I can call it like that, and learnings stems from my from when I was young, as I already said, I was a really shy person really insecure. And yeah, I think there's a lot of misunderstanding around being shy. I mean, it's, it's, it has to do with fear with a profound lack of self confidence, but it is often seen by other people as something completely different, like being antisocial, being badly educated, not wanting to talk with other people because you think you're too good. It has been in my case, I mean, I've encountered all these kinds of reactions that didn't really understand what it was all about. It has been seen as arrogance. It has been seen as a choice that I made to close myself off from the rest of the world. So and then it is reconfirmed by by everything and everyone and yeah, I remember I had a really good friend because it's often it often has to do with public spheres and in private you can be if you think you're really in a comfortable situation you can be exuberant and creative and fun to be with. So actually, I had a really good friend She was one of my best friends. She was maybe my best friend. And we also we always had loads of fun playing together. And when I was about, I don't know, eight years old or something, she invited another a third girl to play with us, which was a close friend of hers. I didn't know that. That girl. And then she introduced this this girl by saying, Yeah, this is Gotcha. She's ugly, and she's stupid and boring. But my mom tells me I should play with her. So that was like a dagger through my heart. I mean, coming from the person that I trusted, and that I considered, I knew to be my friend. So yeah, then it it's like, ever confirming situation of feeling excluded and being excluded. And so yes, then I gradually overcame that. How did I do that? Not by seeing a therapist, because that was not there at the moment when I grew up. I mean, I'm from an era where, where there was no kids coaching, where there was no child therapy, where there were no, no. Yeah, there was just no, yeah, there was no external support. So it had to come from within me. So it's about taking, that's one of the lessons that I learned, it's about taking small steps towards overcoming your inner devils and turning those into, into positive things. So I started, for example, I who never could communicate was not capable of communicating well, with people, I started communication. I started taking singing lessons, and I actually had quite a nice voice. So that was a way of literally making myself heard. And, yeah, what I also took away from that is this drive to really speak up for people who feel excluded or who are excluded. And yeah, an important lesson that maybe you cannot achieve a goal that is deep within you at the spot at the moment, but never forget it never let life. Take away your dreams. If you have to take small steps do that. So yeah, speaking of values, one of my personal personal values is perseverance. Because I know that often it is not this major breakthrough that suddenly makes you an overnight success. But it's like these gradual, small steps that help you like go forward and finally achieve the goals that you've set for yourself. Absolutely. I mean, I didn't know that you were a shy person in as as a child, and that's something that you had to work on. And you are absolutely right. It's really making these small steps. And you were once a shy person and now it's it's you turn it around and it became your strength. You are a great communicator. You are out there you are. Yeah, telling your story. I think that's wonderful. So yeah, having the perseverance. I think I'm also one of them who had to cope a lot with being shy and having self doubts and you just need to get yourself out there. And it's absolutely okay. Thank you for telling us the story. Yeah. Thank you so much. Katya. Okay, before coming to the end of our show. I would love to do a quick word wrap with you. Are you ready to give me quick and short answers? Okay, yes. Oh. Purpose, crucial. Diversity and power moments and making the otter feel as you would like to be respected by other people. Okay, and then I have empowerment take it one step further. Yeah, empowerments opening opportunities to find the leader in each and every one of us. Wonderful cat. Cats Yeah, you know I'm a cat lover good companions and positive energy to to make your way through difficult times. Yeah, that's right. And brands. Brands, personality, that is the word that comes up. As I said, brand personality is such a nice concept to work with. And yeah, don't treat branding as a marketing thing as an abstract, technical thing that you have to do. It's really something that you are. That is beautiful. Great, thanks. Yeah, well, will they find you. Yeah, you can, of course, connect with me on social media. My social media name is Gotcha. Norodom on LinkedIn, on Twitter, on Facebook, on Facebook. It's actually gotcha Marianna Norodom because that name was already taken. And you can go to my websites. And I'll mention one of those here, because that's the one that's in English. And in Spanish, the other one is only in Dutch. That's got cuts. Now, and now I mentioned in the other one, it's fair change. impact.com. So there you can go to read blog post, you can also download, for example, I have a free download that is about taking purpose driven decisions. So what questions should you ask and why? Why, where does this purpose driven? really stand for? Yes, and you can also find the announcements for my podcast when it's finally live. And you can subscribe to my news, my grow impact embrace purpose, grow impact news. So I will keep you updated about everything that's going on in my business and in my social enterprise world. Great. Yeah. Katya. Thank you so much for being my guest today on brandstalk. It really as a privilege having you talk bout this. Such a vital topic of how to brand for social purpo e. And thank you for all your isdom and your stories, and a so the pieces of advice we can d rectly put into practice. Thank you, Katya. Thank you for inviting me. It was lovely talking to you. And that was my conversation with Katya, Mariana Norden. If you liked my show, head over to bridgetbrands.com and sign up or my newsletter to never miss n episode. I look forward to elcoming you in my community. lso, don't forget to subscribe o my brandstalk podcast on y ur preferred app. share it on s cial media and if you find a m nute or two, leave it quick g ading or review. Thank you so m ch. I hope you will stay tuned i on the next episode. When w dive into the world of brands