Building Heart & Resilience w/ Frank DeAngelis

In this powerful episode of Something Extra, we sit down with Frank DeAngelis, retired principal of Columbine High School and a dedicated voice in education and school safety. As a founding member of the Principal’s Recovery Network and author of "They Call Me Mr. De: The Story of Columbine's Heart, Resilience, and Recovery," Frank shares his journey of leading a community through unimaginable tragedy. Through the DeAngelis Center Foundation, he now trains and supports schools and communities across the country. Tune in to hear Frank’s reflections on leadership, courage, and the deep bonds that drive positive change in education and beyond.

Guest Links:

• Frank’s LinkedIn
• DeAngelis Center Foundation
• They Call Me Mr. De: The Story of Columbine's Heart, Resilience, and Recovery

Credits: 
Host: Lisa Nichols
Executive Producer: Jenny Heal
Marketing Support: Landon Burke and Joe Szynkowski
Podcast Engineer: Portside Media

Transcript

Lisa Nichols  00:03
Chromosomes, little strands of nucleic acids and proteins are the fundamental genetic instructions that tell us who we are. At birth, most people are born with 46 chromosomes, but each year in the United States, about 6000 people are born with an extra chromosome, making them a person with Down syndrome. If you've ever encountered someone with Down syndrome, you know that they are some of the kindest, most joyful people you will ever meet. They truly have something extra. 

My name is Lisa Nichols, and I have spent the last 24 years as both the CEO of Technology Partners and as the mother to Ally. Ally has something extra in every sense of the word. I have been blessed to be by her side as she impacts everyone she meets. Through these two important roles as CEO and mother to Ally, I have witnessed countless life lessons that have fundamentally changed the way I look at the world. While you may not have an extra chromosome, every leader has something extra that defines who you are. 

Join me as I explore the something extra in leaders from all walks of life and discover how that difference in each of them has made a difference in their companies, their families, their communities and in themselves. If you liked this episode today, please go to Apple Podcast or wherever you listen and leave us a five-star rating. 

I am grateful to have Frank DeAngelis on the show today. Frank is an author, speaker and the retired principal of Columbine High School. Well, Frank, welcome to the Something Extra Podcast. I am so thrilled to have you as my guest today. 

Frank DeAngelis  01:51
Well, it's such an honor and true blessing to be able to talk to you and listen to your work. And it's just fantastic. And just it's very humbling to be able to talk to you.

Lisa Nichols  02:01
Well, I feel the same way about you. So, special shout out to our mutual friend Tommy Spalding, because if it had not been for Tommy, we may not have met one another, Frank. But you know, you and I told you in a sidebar conversation, you've been such an inspiration to him and a mentor of sorts. And we talked about this, every morning for three years now, you have sent him a text, an affirmation, or a Bible verse or simply to say…

Frank DeAngelis  02:02
I love you. 

Lisa Nichols  02:35
I love you. I know, and it can be, and you've inspired me, Frank. Ever since I heard that you've inspired me, because I've been doing that with my kids and my grandson. Just, you know, I don't need anything. I just wanted to let you know that I love you. And so, no wonder, no wonder he considers you such an inspiration and a mentor to him. 

Frank DeAngelis  02:59
And Tommy does the same for me. He's been fantastic. And I can remember someone telling me once, it was a high school teacher, way back when, when I was high school. And here we are, you know, 17 years old, getting ready to go out into the world. And he had us hold up our hand, and he said, I can guarantee you, throughout your life, you're going to be able to count on one hand the number of people that you consider your true friends, and we're saying, No way we have, you know, dozens and dozens of friends. But as I get go through life, I realize that that there's certain people that you're going to call in the middle of the night when you need someone, or just someone, to listen to you, and Tommy falls into that category. 

Lisa Nichols  03:43
And that is such a blessing, such a blessing. Well, here's what he says. He goes, Frank's secret Italian sauce is love. I love that your secret Italian sauce. So, so that kind of is a great segue, because I want you to take me back to your childhood, because I know that you grew up in a large Italian, American Catholic family in North Denver. You have a younger brother and a younger sister, I think. But tell me about growing up. You had an idyllic childhood.

Frank DeAngelis  04:16
Oh, it was fantastic. And I was so blessed, and I am so fortunate that my parents just graduate or graduated, they just celebrated their 71st wedding anniversary. And it is just phenomenal. Of what I've learned from them, and many of the values I have today is because of my parents. And you know, my dad was in the Korean War, and he was stationed here in Colorado, and that's when he went met my mom, and so they were together, and they got married at Our Lady of Mount Carmel church, and they had a wedding at Potenza Hall, that's where all the Italians had the receptions. And for me, I was baptized at Our Lady of Mount Carmel confirmation. I received penance and things of that nature. And it's a dear parish of mine. It's a historical parish. And where I grew up, in North Denver is it was really around the churches. You had Our Lady of Mount Carmel, which was the Italian Americans, just a little bit to the south. You had St Patrick's, the Irish Americans. And then you had Our Lady of Guadalupe in the Hispanic and it was really around church. And many of the things that I have today I owe, you know, to my parents, my family, but also to the nuns and the sisters and things that they instilled in me. 

Frank DeAngelis  04:27
And I think back to things that just resonate in my mind. And people said, I've been told this several times that boy, you really became a leader after Columbine. I said, Well, I really believe that I developed leadership skills prior. And they said, What are you talking about? And I said, this sounds kind of crazy, but I can remember the first time Sister Mary Xavier was my fourth-grade teacher, and all sudden she said, Frankie DeAngelis, you are going to lead us in the rosary. And here I am. I'm sitting in church, and here's those little, you know, Italian kid along with all my Italian friends and leading. And I remember, I can do this. And I look at, you know, being in Student Council and things of that nature. And that's what I tell people when I talk about leadership, you just don't wake up and become this leader. It's been developed throughout your life and certain things and, and many of the things that I learned from my parents and the teachers and the nuns and things really shaped me to who I am today. 

Lisa Nichols  06:31
Yes, I love that. Well, I know that I read your mom and dad. They worked, right, until they were 86 and 83 years old, which I think is amazing. And you know what Frank, my mom and dad do too. I mean, my dad had his own business, and when he was 84, he got rid of his business. He shut his business down because my mom got sick. But he was a young 84-year-old, and I really do believe that it was because he continued to keep his mind engaged and his hands engaged. 

Frank DeAngelis  07:04
And I agree wholeheartedly because they both retired when they turned 65 and my siblings and I, we were concerned because of their mental ability. And it was really they were depressed and things of that, and all of a sudden, they go back to work, and it was just like a whole different thing, because that's how they were raised, you know. And grew up during the Depression, and they learned to work hard, and it was something, and they instilled that on me. I you know, you got to go to work. You got to go to work. And sometimes I think about it. When I retired, I had over 300 sick days, and the only time I really miss school is when I ended up in the hospital for a couple of weeks. But they instilled that, that, you know, you, you got, you can't let people down if you don't show up for work and things of that nature. And I look at some of it, things, and it's really funny, about 10 years ago, we were having a new home built, and so while our homes being built, my wife and I, my lovely wife, Diane, and I moved in with my parents. And within 24 oh my goodness, Frank, I know why you are the way you are, you know. And I said, that's a good thing, you know. And so many of the things and very organized and grew up in a blue-collar environment, and the first one to go to college, and we can talk a little bit about that, why I chose education, but I'm just really blessed.

Lisa Nichols  08:23
Yes, for sure. Well, I know one other thing that I wanted to talk about from your childhood. You played a lot of basketball and football and everything with the ball, and this is going to come in later as we continued with your story. But you know two friends, and you've already talked about Diane. I know there were two very special friends, Diane Wethington, who became your high school sweetheart, then broke your heart when you went off to college. It broke your heart. But we're gonna, we're gonna come back around to her later. And then you had a best friend, Rick Debell. And I think this is really funny. You went to college thinking he wanted to be an accountant, right? 

Frank DeAngelis  09:03
Right. Yes. 


Lisa Nichols  09:04
What happened? 

Frank DeAngelis  09:05
Well, it was so funny. I love this story. And Ricky and I, we grew up together from the time we were five years old. And then he went to Wheat Ridge High School because they closed this Catholic schools in the Archdiocese, so my parents couldn't afford me to send me to a Jesuit school or Franciscan brothers, so ended up going from a school of about 400 to a school of 2000. But Ricky and I stayed connected, so all of a sudden, we're getting ready to graduate in 1972 and he was going to be an attorney, and I was going to be an accountant, and we had a family friend who was owned a CPA firm, and said, once you get your degree, you know, you pass your exams, you have a job. And my parents were so happy. I was living at home. Things were good, and they said, You can stay here as long as you're not on the 10 year plan, you know, and that type of thing. 

Frank DeAngelis  09:56
But I go down and like most of us, when we take those general study classes. Classes, you're saying, well, it's going to get better, you know, once you get into your area of study. And I was taking some beginning classes, but after that first year, I said, Geez, I'm not sure if this is what I want to do. So, I go back my second year, my sophomore year, and actually probably spent more time in a coffee shop than I did in classes. And said, this is not going well, and I go back second semester my sophomore year. Can remember this so vividly, the cost accounting professor said, now you need to subscribe to The Wall Street Journal. I said, No, we're not. I said, I am done after this year. So, I go home and my parents, you know, they're disappointed, because I was going to be the first one to go to college and earn that degree. But I went to work in an Italian grocery store in North Denver, and I was, this was 1973 I was making 525 an hour. And, you know, and things worked down. They appointed me to frozen food manager. But I said, Is this something I want to do the rest of my life? 

Frank DeAngelis  10:57
And I had a teacher and a coach, Mr. Dittman, and he said, please call me Chris. And I said, I can't you're always going to be Mr. Ditman or coach Dittman. And I said, I really think that I want to choose a profession I love. And I had an uncle. My uncle Vito said to me one time. He said, Frankie, choose the job you love and you never have to work a day in your life. Love what you do and do what you love. Immediately, I think of Mr. Dittman, and I said, I want to be a teacher. And I can remember going home to my parents and said, Mom and Dad, guess what? I'm going back to school. Oh, Frankie, we're so proud of you. I'm going to be a teacher. We still love you. And I had friends say to me, why would you want to grow up in an area of poverty for the rest of your life and, and they weren't too far off. My first job and only job at Columbine, I was teaching American history, some world history, teach coaching three sports, making $10,000 and I couldn't even afford a home. 

Frank DeAngelis  11:57
But what I tell people is, when a kid comes up to you, and I just recently went to 2014, 10-year reunion, because that was my last class. And then I went to the reunion of 1984, 40-year reunion. These kids are Mr. D, how you doing? Coach D, how you doing? My wife and I get invited eight or nine weddings of former students every year, and you can't put a price tag on that. And because of that, you know, I am one of the richest people on the face of this earth. They're going to be my kids, and these kids that I call kids, you know, we're celebrating their 60th birthday. And so, it really is, it's I made the right choice. I chose the job I loved. 

Lisa Nichols  12:37
Well, I'm just thanking Frank or Mr. D or Coach D, I'll call you Mr. D. I'm just thinking the ripple effect that you had, really, like you said, you can't put a price on that. You're a rich man. You are a rich man because of all of those relationships with those kids and just the difference that you made in their life. Let me ask you this. So, because you did go to Columbine in 1979 and you were a social studies teacher, you know, a coach, multi athletic coach, you know, how did those years doing that really shape your leadership style, would you say?

Frank DeAngelis  13:20
It helped me greatly, because I ended up being like a department person I would serve on committees, but I'll tell you, my coaching background really helped me. And people are saying how, because I look at many of the decisions I had to make after Columbine was, how do you bring people together, you have unpredictable circumstances happening. How do you think you know? One of the things that was so interesting when people would say, whenever you spoke, like at the beginning of the year faculty meeting, or whenever you spoke to groups, it was like us being in the locker room, hearing a pep talk. And to me, one of the most important things, and I don't care what line of work you're in, whether your family, it's all about relationships, relationships, relationships. And I think that is the most important thing. 

Frank DeAngelis  14:12
And I think one of the important messages is the reason I was able to lead us through Columbine is because of the 20 years prior of the relationships that I had with the kids, I had with the staff and the parents. And I can remember Mr. Dittman, my hero, telling me, he said, your life and your career is going to be determined by three things in the educational field. He said you really have three stakeholder groups that you need to address. And he said, depending on the relationships that you have with those groups, are going to determine your career. And he said, you know, if you get along with, you have a difficult time working with the three. He said your career is going to be short lived. But he said each time that you have. To connect with these groups, and you have these working relationships, and it becomes a team. He said, if you're ever fortunate to get all three on board, he said, you're going to have a long, luxurious career. And that's exactly what happened. And I think just having all those. 

Frank DeAngelis  15:16
And so, I had my critics after Columbine, I was named in eight lawsuits, but I had those people that came forth and said, This is who Frank is, and just about, you know who you are. And I think one of the things, and this is why I love Tommy's book, you know, "Speaking from The Heart" or "Heart-Led Leaders." And I can remember people coming up to me afterwards, and they said, Frank, we're going to have a speechwriter for you. We're going to do that. I said no, because as soon as I get up there and someone else is telling me what to say, they're going to say that is not Frank DeAngelis, you know, and I'm not the smartest, I'm not the tallest, but I speak from my heart. And that I wanted to share the story because I think it's important. I can remember, probably about 15 years into my career, I had a mentor of mine, Ron Mitchell. He came to me said, If you ever thought about being an administrator, and I literally said, why would I want to be one of them? Because I was afraid. And we all know these people, that all of a sudden, they assume a leadership role, and people are saying, Who is this person? You're not the person I worked with. Now this title is made to a different person. And so, I was struggling. 

Frank DeAngelis  16:27
And so, Susan Peters, who was a dear friend of mine, and we taught a class called American Studies, and she taught the American Lit piece. I taught the history piece. She said, Frank, your job is changing, but you don't have to change as a person. You always spoke from the heart, and you continue to do that. Just because your title is different does not mean you are different. And I lived by that, and it was so important. I think the best comp one of the many compliments that I received, but one that'll resonate with me for a long time is when my staff stood up at my last faculty meeting. They said, you never became one of them. You were always one of us, and we always had your back, because we knew you had ours. And so that's important. 

Lisa Nichols  17:09
That's a great leadership lesson, right there. A great leadership lesson. We're here as leaders to serve, right, Frank? It's not to be served. And so, you know, I think as soon as we lose sight of that, I think that's when you know there's going to be trouble. But you know, I loved it when you I, because I read this when you said, My greatest fear of becoming an administrator, getting into administration is not being with kids. 

Frank DeAngelis  17:38
Oh, and I, I used to have staff members say, You're never in your office. And I said, I'm not trying to be disrespectful, but if you need to talk to me, set up an appointment. They said, what are you talking about? Because I was a high school principal that loved cafeteria duty. I loved being in the hallways, and Tommy was amazed when he spent time with me at our school. It's the kids walking down the hall. We had 2000 kids. I knew their names, or hey, Mr. D and this, this is high school, and kids are saying, hey, love you Mr. D, and I love you so. And you create that atmosphere of love. And they're saying that doesn't happen in high school. And we had kids that transferred from other schools that said, Mr. D, this is unique. I said, What are you talking about? This doesn't happen everywhere. Because I think a lot of times, I was at Columbine for 35 years assuming this is how it is everywhere. And it wasn't until afterwards, when I left and start doing some speaking, that I realized that this isn't what we had a Columbine was special, and all about those relationships and things of that nature, and I truly believe that, that's what brought us together.

Lisa Nichols  18:52
I'm just sitting here thinking, this is called something extra. There was something extra going on. Something extra going on at Columbine. Well, you know, I know that you became the principal in 1996 but you know, can you just, can you just quickly, and I don't want to spend a lot of time here. I really want to talk about recovery and what you've done since. But, you know, I mean, you know, April 20, 1999, I know that's going to be forever etched in everyone's minds, but you know what went through your mind when all of that, the shooting started, you know, there? I mean, I think at first you thought that there was, like, some firecrackers or something, or, you know, didn't really realize what was happening, as nobody did, really.

Frank DeAngelis  19:40
Well, a senior prank. And I do need to share this with you, Lisa, because there's a strong message, I want to share with the people that are listening. Mr. Sanders and I, he was my mentor, and he came to Columbine in '77 I came in '79 we coached together. We were at each other's weddings. Our kids went to school together, and it was the day before. It was April 19, and we're playing one of our arch rivals, Chatfield, in baseball, so we're both at the game. We're just laid-back sitting on the bleachers, and we have this conversation. And at the point, it didn't mean a whole lot, but he was we were talking about our lives, and, you know, the 20 plus years we had been together, and he said, Do you have any regrets? You know, there's times we're at school, we're away from our families, and, you know, different types of things. And how do you balance professional and personal? And this deep, deep conversation goes on and, and he's talked, we're talking about our kids and, you know, and then we talk about all the things that we've been involved and I can remember him saying so vividly. He said, you know, though, moving forward, I can't wait to spend more time with my grandkids. And he said, that's one of the things that is so important. I want to be there for my kids now that their parents and their grandkids. And he asked me, and he said, Frank, do you have any regrets? Would you do it all? And I said, No, I would not. 

Frank DeAngelis  21:08
Well, every morning, before school started, Mr. Sanders and I, he would come by my office. He have a cup of coffee well the following morning because, and I'll explain where I was prior, I wasn't at Columbine. And if I would have known the last conversation, I had with Dave was in those bleachers, I would have hugged him and told him how much I loved him. And that's a lesson for all of us that you know, with my wife and others, we try not to go to bed mad or leave mad because you don't know. And one of the things that the parents say to me that lost their loved ones, they said, If I do when they left for school that morning, that was the last time I was going to see them, I would have hugged them and told them how much I loved them. And we learned from that day on, there's no guarantees. 

Frank DeAngelis  21:55
And so, getting back to your question, as I stated, I was at Columbine almost every morning. Well, we had some students, Our Future Business Leaders of America, that were being recognized by the Chamber of Commerce. So, they said, Mr. D, will you come and be with us? So, I'm there. And as a result of that, I'm late getting back to Columbine. And the reason I'm sharing this is out of 175 days, 170 days, I was usually down in the cafeteria for our A lunch. We had two lunches, A lunch, B lunch, and I was down there to greet the kids and welcome them back or send them off to class. Well, that day, I'm looking for Kiki Leyba. And Kiki was a young man who taught at Columbine. He was on a one year contract, interviewed him, and I was going to welcome to the Columbine family. Well, I couldn't find him, and all of a sudden, I'm getting ready to go downstairs, and he comes into my office, and he said, what's up D, what's up? And to this day, we have this conversation. I'm not sure if I ever offered him the contract. He's still working at Columbine, but before I offered him the contract, my secretary comes running towards the door, and the door was shut, and she face planted this little window, and I knew something was wrong. And as she opened the door, she said, Frank, Mr. D, there's been a reported gunfire. And the first thing that crossed my mind, this has to be a senior prank. I could count on two hands, a number of fistfights, and I'm we're about a month away from graduation. 

Frank DeAngelis  23:22
And then all of a sudden, I come out of my office, and I said, Call 911, and Kiki goes one way, and I go the other. And I went through something later I learned was fight, flight and freeze. Everything slowed down for me, and all I could remember thinking is what it was going to feel like to have a bullet pierced my body. Because as I'm looking down the hallway, there's a gunman coming towards me, and I remember so vividly what he was wearing, with the baseball cap turned sideways, a black vest, white t shirt, army boots on. And the barrel of the gun looked about the size of the cannon, and shots were being fired over my head. And I kept thinking, Did I tell my family I love them? Will I not see it my parents again? And it was so difficult, as that is happening? And I thought I walked out very calmly, and Kiki Leyva said, I sprinted towards the gunman. And people said, why? 

Frank DeAngelis  24:18
One reason. One reason only. I had about 25 girls that were coming out of the locker room to go to a physical education class, and this was before all the drills the kids are doing now and grandkids, you know, all these lockdown drills. But I knew if I got the girls in the gymnasium, I would be able there was an egress outside. Everything was going as planned. The girls were unaware. I get them in this little hallway, I pull on the door and it's locked. And the girl starts crying, papa, papa, save us. They start praying. I literally had 30 keys on a key ring in the first key I stuck in the door, it opened it on the first try. I wouldn't be having this conversation. And people asked me, and I said I had very little to do in finding that key, because 15 years after, I continued to stick that, try to reach in my pocket, I couldn't do it. 



Frank DeAngelis  25:11
A couple of things I want to share that really still gets to me, Is a couple of years ago, I had a young lady, Katie was her name, and she was one of the girls with me, and we're at a Columbine softball game. They're playing in the state championship, and she's there, and she comes up and we embrace and we're hugging and crying, and all sudden she spins me around. I said, Mr. D, I am so glad you found that key, because if you didn't, my daughter wouldn't be playing right field. And we just start crying. And with this past year being the 25-year remembrance, the kids, my kids, those girls that were with me, sent me pictures of their families, saying, Mr. D, thank you. You found that key, and I had very little to do with it. God had a plan.

Lisa Nichols  25:57
Amen. There's no way, because you said you had, it was a whole key ring of keys, right? You know, and for you to find just the one, I mean, there was definitely, you know, a higher power watching after you for sure. Well, Mr. D, we need to take a quick break, and then we'll be right back with Frank DeAngelis on the Something Extra Podcast.

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Lisa Nichols  26:51
Well, welcome back everyone to the Something Extra Podcast with Frank DeAngelis. Frank, you know, how, what did you, 13 people lost their lives. 12 students in Dave Sanders, your friend and teacher. You know, what did you do in the days after to guide the community, the school, through the healing and the recovery?

Frank DeAngelis  27:16
There's several things. And one of the things that I have to share with the audience is so many times when I go out and talk to people, they'll come up and say, Frank, you know, we didn't lose 13 or and I said, it's not a competition who suffered more. You know, hurt is hurt, pain is pain, trauma is trauma, and we need to come together. But one of the things that helped me is, I think, in being in a leadership role that you feel you have to be there for everyone else. And probably one of the most important phone calls I received was from a gentleman named John Fisher. My mom worked for he was a chiropractor, but more importantly, he was a Vietnam veteran, and he called me and he said, Frank, I never got the help I needed. It cost me a marriage. It cost me a business. I'm struggling. He said, you need to reach out. And so, I immediately reached out to a counselor. 

Frank DeAngelis  28:13
And one of the things that happens if I'm addressing a large group, and I think one of the things that everyone who's listening can identify with that we all went through was a pandemic where we felt our life was out of control. Now, if I walked in to a group of teachers or people, family members or parents and said, you're screwed up. You better talk to someone you're saying. No one's telling me how I should feel, but it's how you deliver the message, the leadership style. And I said, I don't know about you, but I'm not sleeping well. I'm, you know, I'm having reoccurring nightmares. I don't know if this will help you, but it's going to help me. And all of a sudden, they're saying, geez, I thought I was the only one dealing with that. 

Frank DeAngelis  28:55
And then the other thing, cradle Catholic. And for the first time in my life, I was questioning my faith and could not go back to the my house that night that the FBI was concerned about the safety and welfare, so my brother, my car was impounded. My brother picked me up, and he was at school with my dear friend, John Wassinger, and he was there and took me to the house to get a change of clothes. And I can remember sitting at my brother in law's or my brother Anthony's house, and Chan and my sister-in-law, thinking, God, how could you allow this to happen? How could you allow this to happen? I was struggling. 

Frank DeAngelis  29:33
And two days later, Father, Ken Leone was a pastor where I had been for 20 years, and he said, please come down. I said, Father, I have nothing. He said, please come down. He calls me up on the altar, and we're in the sanctuary, and there's about 1200 people, and he calls me up on the altar, and many of my students were part of the youth group were there, and then Tom Tonelli was one of those kids that I would send a Bible verse to every morning he was there, and our eyes connected. And father said, The Holy Spirit is going to descend upon you and make you stronger. And then he quoted, later to me in Proverbs, 16:9, he said, in his heart, a man plans his course, but the Lord determines his steps. And he said, We have no idea why you were spared, but God's got a plan. And he said, You are going to fall, and each time you fall, he's going to reach out and pick you up. And there's going to be times even more tough than ever that you feel you can't go on and you can't even crawl. He's going to pick you up and carry you. And he said, Now you need to go out, and you need to help the people from Columbine recover, and then help the rest of the country, and to this day, that's why 25 years later, I'm still reaching out to people. 

Frank DeAngelis  30:47
So, my faith component was important, you know. And he shared something with me that I shared this today with someone, and he said, he said, Frank, God is writing your story. stop trying to steal the pen. And it made so much sense to me that he said, You just there's days that you're going to be able to do it. And, and that's the thing that I tell people during recovery. You don't have to travel the journey alone. For me, it was counseling, and counseling is not a sign of weakness, it's a sign of strength. My faith and then another thing that was important is working out the physical exercise. So, I said, You need to find those things. And when I did that, it made a difference. And so, I think those were the most important things. 

Frank DeAngelis  31:31
And then one final thing is we talk about being who you are, and Columbine didn't shape the person I was, and I can remember we could not go back to Columbine because the building was just destroyed, but we had to finish the school year, and people said, Why didn't you go back into another school right away? And Chatfield High School opened their hearts and opened the doors to us, and they went to school in the morning, we went in the afternoon, but we had 13 memorial services we had to go to, and I said the last thing I wanted our kids and our staff to do is go to a memorial service and then go try to learn math and science. So, we ended up going over to West Bowles Community Church, and the staff would meet there every day, and we would have so much support for them, but we also had to have support for our kids while they were no longer in session for a couple of weeks. 

Frank DeAngelis  32:22
And I can remember it was the Thursday morning before I went down to St Francis Cabrini. Counselor comes up and says, your kids need to see and I said, I have nothing to give. The last person they want to see now is me. I said, I haven't eaten, I haven't slept. They said, please come with us. So, I walk into this auditorium, it's packed. There's over 1000 kids, and they start chanting, we love you, Mr. D, we love you. Mr. D, we're Columbine. Well, I lose it, and I literally turn away from them, and my body is shaking. The Counselor spins me around, and he said, Frank, what do you see? And I said, I apologize. I said, I am so sorry. Said you don't understand. He said, For the past 48 hours, these kids didn't know what to feel, and by you crying, you gave them permission that it was okay to feel this, and even later, it's right for you to feel. It's okay. And I love this quote, Character and Integrity is who you are when no one's watching. And so, I have people that I said, they get up and say one thing, and then you walked their action. And I had someone that day said, Frank, we've heard you speak and share your message, but you didn't a word was not uttered out of your mouth, but you spoke. Your actually spoke more loudly than anything you could have possibly said.

Lisa Nichols  33:41
Oh, that's beautiful. Isn't that the truth your actions. Wow, well, Frank, one of the things that I, you know, just think is just so wonderful is you vowed to stay. You vowed to stay at Columbine. Because a lot of people would have said, I'm out of here. You know, I can't, I can't deal with this. I'm going to go do, I'm going to go be an accountant now, or whatever, right? But you vowed to stay until the last students affected by the shooting had graduated, which I think would have been 2012 but then you ended up staying even farther beyond that, and you didn't retire until 2014. But I, I love like you know how you honored, I know that you shut down the school on that day every year, on the 20th to honor the lives that were lost. But you know, I read you've already talked about, I think it was the young man, was it, was it Tommy Tonelli? What was his first name that? 

Frank DeAngelis  34:47
Tom Tonelli.

Lisa Nichols  34:47
Tom Tonelli. You know he, I think it was he that said, you would always say, be a good student, be a good athlete, but above all, be a good human.

Frank DeAngelis  34:57
Yes. 


Lisa Nichols  34:58
And a good person, you know? But I read many of the things that were said about you and you know, another person said, another student said, what we appreciated the most about you was how you treated them and how you love them. Another this might have been Tom, that you were more of a father to him than his own father, not sure that that was Tom.

Frank DeAngelis  35:23
No, that was another young man, Kelvin, and he came up to me my last day, and he gave me this hug. And it was a tough day, because all these kids are coming up and saying, I love you, love you and the whole thing. And he said, You were more of a father figure than my dad ever was. And it's things like that that made it all worthwhile when I made that decision to become a teacher.

Lisa Nichols  35:45
Yes, I love it. I love it. I'm so glad you did. I'm so glad you did, because the ripple effect you may not know this side of eternity, Frank, you know. But you did retire in 2014 and now this is what I want to talk about. Now, you've been working with other schools and communities that have been impacted by violence. You know, how has this really shaped your mission and your purpose since retirement? Because a lot of times people retire and then they lose a purpose. But you've, you've got purpose still. You're still out there helping.

Frank DeAngelis  36:19
Well, I say this jokingly, I'm failing retirement. And every time I need to cut back. And I mean, Tommy travels around the world. And now Tommy's much younger, but, you know, I think it was the year before the pandemic, I had 49 trips, and I just said, I can't, you know, in the pandemic happened, and things slowed down, and I did some virtual things and but I remember it was within three days after Columbine. April 20, 1999 I received a phone call from a gentleman named Bill bond, and he was the principal at Heath High School in Paducah, where there was a school shooting. And I think the date was December 7 of I know it was 1997 and he called me up and he said, Frank, you don't even know what you need, but here's my number. And I kept that number. 

Frank DeAngelis  37:11
And I mean, I remember, well, what do you do going back into school? What do you do when you start a new school year? What do you do for prom? What do you do? And I kept thinking in my the back of my mind, I said, I hope our kids and Mr. Sanders didn't die in vain. I hope I never have to make that phone call again. Well, unfortunately, since 1999 I've had to make that phone call I can't tell you how many times. And it's not because it's Frank DeAngelis, it's because when I call up and say, I know what you're feeling, they're saying, oh my gosh, you really do. And it was just within 2018 I'm a member of the National Association of Secondary School Principals, and Bill Waiples called, he said, Frank, I want to start something called the Principal's Recovery Network, would you like to head it up? And so, we did that. And I can remember that we met in Washington, DC, and we meet with legislators, and then it was in 2022. 21 principals and superintendents came from around the country, and we spent a couple of days in the Columbine community, went to the school, and I shared my story, and then we did a release at the Columbine Memorial, called the Principal's Recovery Guide, and it talks about, and it's, it's free to everyone that wants to just reach out. What do you do after event happens in your community? And you know, what about first graduation? What about going back into the building? And so, it's continuing to help, and just recently, unfortunately. 

Frank DeAngelis  38:40
And talk about counseling and importance. It's been a tough year for me, and I go into my counselor at least once a year. Well, I go into my counselor and the I'm getting double dosed, because not only is he my grief counselor, but he's a strong spiritual leader, and he gives me both. So, I go in and I'm feeling really good. I said, Thank you. Thank God. We prayed the whole thing. I come down the elevator, I sit there, and all sudden, my phone starts, you're in my thoughts and prayers, thinking of you, and the media starts calling, and that's when the shooting occurred at Appalachia. And I'm just saying, God, I'm so sorry to hear this, but thank you for giving me the strength. And so immediately reaching out to some of the teachers that struggled, they're struggling, just to tell them that you're not in this journey alone. And I said, you can't worry about a year from now, let's take it day by day. And I find the phrase it's a marathon and not a sprint, and I'm going to be with you every step of the way.

Lisa Nichols  39:43
Wow, well, let's talk about this, because in 2019 and I already showed you, you published a book, "They Call Me Mr. D." Some the students call you Coach D, right? It's "They Call Me Mr. D: The Story of Columbine's Heart, Resilience and Recovery" and the forward was written by our dear friend Tommy Spaulding. And Tommy said that you transform the legacy of Columbine frank with one word, and that's love. You know, it's really a powerful, powerful book. I hope our readers will go out and get the book, but when you wrote that book, what were your hopes that readers would take from the book?

Frank DeAngelis  40:37
I'll tell you, it was tough. I can remember right after Columbine happened, people started approaching me about writing a book, and I even remember getting a phone call from Howard Stern that wanted to write a book. And I'm saying the last thing on my mind is writing a book. The last thing on my mind is doing public speaking. Now I did public speaking, or I went out and helped, like at Sandy Hook, Virginia Tech and these other places. But I didn't start this whole other career until I retired. And so, all of a sudden, I get ready to retire, and a good friend of mine, the co-author, Terry Fry, we competed against each other in baseball, and he went Louis Rich High School. I went to Ranum. And he right after Columbine, he said, would you think of writing a book? And I said, that's the last thing on my mind. I got to rebuild this community. 

Frank DeAngelis  41:29
So, 2014 comes or a year. And I said, Let's go to lunch. And I said, Are you still interested in writing this book? And he said, I am. Now, one of the things that's very difficult. Is we had some publishers that said, Frank, this whole bit about you growing up and your family and your friends, and that's not people don't want to see that that may not sell books. And I said, I am willing to sacrifice the sale of books for me to thank all these people that made me who I am today. And again, I mean, if I would have went with a different publisher and left all that out, it's not about the dollar and cents. It's about me saying, Mom and Dad, thank you, aunt Florence and Uncle Vito. Thank you, my brother and sister, thank you. That was more important to me to share that message, and that's who I am, and all the proceeds from it go to the Columbine Memorial Fund or the academic foundation, or it goes to a training center. And it was important because I could not thank all the people who helped shape me who I am. And that's what those chapters are all about, and that's why I asked Tommy, he had a major impact on my life. And I want to say, thank you, thank you, thank you. Because I am who I am, is because of all these people that were in my life. And it didn't just become it part of my life after April 20, 1999.

Lisa Nichols  42:57
Is that, tell me about the is that the De Angelis Center Foundation and the mission for that, I mean, do the proceeds go to that? Okay, got it.

Frank DeAngelis  43:08
They have a training center, and it is so difficult. I have some friends, and we, I've had friends since I was five years old, with them, and they said the only thing we thought be named after you, was a porta potty, you know. And, you know, we have this running joke and the whole thing, but there's a facility called the Frank DeAngelis Center for Community Safety, and we have at that center over 170,000 people trained law enforcement. We've had Navy SEAL we have chaplains firefighters, and it's so it's a way to train people to deal with everything, similar to what happened at Columbine, and because we have changed things, and I look at the protocol that we had in place back then compared to where we have it now. And people say to me, they said, Frank, you continue to speak up. But these shootings continue, these devastation events happen, but how many have been stopped because of things we're doing differently now? And I am the type of person, and people are saying he can't be like this. But if you talk to anyone that knows me and Tommy knows this, that I don't dwell on the negative, I build on the positive. And I say this, and to some people, when I go out and speak, I said, we spend 5% of the time dealing with 90% of the people. We're never going to change. And to me, that's wasted energy, and I'm looking for energy givers, not energy takers. And I'm not going to be disrespectful saying I'm not talking to you, but I want to surround myself with people and that we can move ahead positively. And what I tell people, you can't determine what happens to you, but you can determine your response. 

Frank DeAngelis  44:50
And I think that's important, and I think that's you know, the message. And when I go out and I tell people, Columbine, it's been 25 years. And we are a stronger community today than what we were prior, because that's what happens when people go through devastation, they come together as a family. And I think back the last time our country came together was 9/11 because the enemy and it didn't matter, Republican or Democrat, and I want to share one thing with you, and I promise I'll be quiet. But one of the things I recently testified in front of the Oversight Committee. Congressperson Raskins from Maryland asked me to testify, and there were Senators there, and there were representatives. And so, my closing statement, I told my wife, you may have to come and bail me out of jail. But my comment, I said, you know, it was 25 years ago I lost my beloved 13 and I recited their names, Cassie Bernall, Steven Curnow, Corey DePooter, Kelly Fleming, Matt Kechter, Daniel Mauser, Danny Rohrbough, Dave Sanders, Rachel Scott, Isaiah Shoels, John Tomlin, Lauren Townsend and Kyle Velasquez. And I said, 25 plus years ago when I had to go to those memorial services and watch those kids line in caskets. I said I didn't see a democratic sticker on the casket. I didn't see a Republican sticker on the casket. I didn't see a blue casket or a red casket or a purple casket. We need to come together to keep our kids safe and sound. 

Frank DeAngelis  46:39
And I made that statement, and educational weekly picked it up, and they quoted and it made a point to both sides, because we gotta do everything in our power that's going to keep our kids safe. And I, as I stated earlier when we started this wonderful dialog, is I'm going to be 70 years old, October 15, and if my parents had to bury me, it's still tough, because I'm their kid. And I think that is so important that we have to do everything to keep our kids safe, our grandkids safe, and great grandkids, and we got to come together as one.

Lisa Nichols  47:19
Oh, I could not agree with you more. I couldn't agree with you more, Frank and Diane didn't have to come bail you out of jail. Oh, my goodness. Well, speaking of Diane, I want to come back to her, because you went off to college, and she said, hey, I want to have fun my senior year. And she, you said, she broke your heart. Everybody was, everybody was devastated, because your whole family thought, you know you guys, but tell me the story, because she came back into your life.

Frank DeAngelis  47:49
Wonderful. Well and to her behalf, I give her credit, because she would tease me that, oh, you're a possessive Italian, and I had all these plans. And my mom, we gave her a Hope chest with all these things, and it was all planned out what we were going to do. And she said, I don't want that right now. And my parents loved her so much, as a matter of fact, when she got married, my parents went to her wedding and so but we ended up and we, you know, even though we lived in Colorado, we never stayed in touch. Well, I was, it was after Columbine. I had been married 18 years, and all of a sudden, my wife, at time, comes home and said, you're not the man I married. And she served me with divorce papers. And so, I was devastated. And this was in 2002. Well, back in 1999 I received these cards and letters from people from around the country, around the world, and most were good, but there were some that said, you know, you killed those kids. How do you live with yourself? You should die. And I mean, it was tough. And my counselor said, Frank, the last thing you need right now is to read those. Put them aside, a time will come. 

Frank DeAngelis  49:03
So, we fast forward, it's in February or in actually, the end of January, my, my wife just served me with papers for a divorce. So, I'm at the house. I start pulling cards out, and one of the first cards I pulled out was from my high school sweetheart and how the Lord works in mysterious ways. And she sent that to me in April of '99. Well, now we have everybody's phone number put into our phone. So, you just hit that. I remember that number from calling it so many times. And I said, Mrs. Wellington, this is Frankie DeAngelis. And I feel badly because Diane sent me a card, and she said in the card, I don't know if you remember me. I'm saying you got to be kidding me, the love of my life. And I said, Is there any chance you can give me her number so I can call her to proceed? She said, Frank, with all due respect. I respect you, but I can't do that. Let me give her your number. She called me, and we've been together now for 22 years.

Lisa Nichols  50:05
Such a beautiful story. 

Frank DeAngelis  50:07
Oh, it's great. And we it's so funny because we have our prom picture together, and she is been there every step of the way, and the Lord works in mysterious ways and it's fantastic.

Lisa Nichols  50:21
Yes, oh, such a beautiful story. I love it. Thank you so much for sharing that. Well, let me ask you, Frank, this is called something extra, and I know that you've lot. You've learned a few things in your life with your experiences. But what would you say is this something extra that every leader needs?

Frank DeAngelis  50:43
Think every leader needs that, in order to lead, you can't lead by fear. You can't tell someone you will do it because I'm your boss, and you need to treat people the way you want to be treated. And people would say to me is, people would say to me is, I can't believe you can treat people like that, and they still come back and things. And I remember getting a call from the teacher’s union, and they said, We need to meet. And I said, Sure, what do you want to do? And they said, You got to quit treating your teachers so well. And I said, What are you taught? Because we can't get people to join the union. And I said, that is not going to happen. You treat people the way you want to be treated. And I did the same thing with my students when I had to, if I had to suspend them, they knew I was suspending them because of the act, not because of who they were, and I would call them to check in when they came back. And it's that thing. It's about relationships. And I think when you got to put it up there that I am your boss, I'm stopping. 


Frank DeAngelis  51:58
And I can remember people telling me you're gonna have a special parking spot because you're the principal, no. And people would say to me, and even kids came up to me and they said, Mr. D, you're the principal this high school, and you're pushing around a broom cleaning the cafeteria. Why? Because to me, I want a place that is clean for my students. Now, all of a sudden, I don't have to tell my students, pick this up. They're saying, if the principal's doing it, we're going to do it. And you lead by example, and that's the most important thing. And I love this quote, and I show it on a picture, and it was by Winston Churchill, diplomacy is telling someone to go to hell that they look forward to the trip. It's how you treat the people. And you know, and even when I had these situations that I had to discipline when they walked out of the office, they knew it was about the action, but not about them, that I cared about them and I love them in that word love, love, love is so important. And Tommy said, Frankie, I cannot believe walking down the halls of Columbine High School, these are high school kids saying I love you to each other and to you, and that's the environment you have, because during the tough times, love needs to get us through it all. Love, love.

Lisa Nichols  53:20
Faith, hope and love. The greatest of these is love, and that comes from the Master. The Master Teacher.

Frank DeAngelis  53:30
It's so funny to say that I just recently and I officiate weddings for family members, and I've been asked to do it for some of the students. I said, Well, once I do it for one of my students, I'll be a full time minister. I was just in Minnesota and officiated and did Corinthians 4:7 and just basically what you said the greatest is love, and don't underestimate the power of love, and it just helps us get through in love during the good times and the bad times. Love is so important.

Lisa Nichols  54:02
Could not agree more. Well, Frank, this has just been, just this has been a heart podcast for me, I feel like I've been fighting back tears the whole entire time, but I am so grateful to you well for making the time.

Frank DeAngelis  54:16
I am honored, and we talk about this in our faith, and God brings us together for a reason, and this is a true blessing. I, I didn't know the questions, but it was just like we've been friends forever, and I love carrying on this dialog. And you know, like I said, there's people that you probably interviewed much smarter than I, but I just speak from the heart, and I'm never going to change and I'm going to take it to the grave with me. What you see is what you get.

Lisa Nichols  54:50
I love it. I love it. Well, you're just the kind of person I want to be around. So, thank you again, Frank.

Frank DeAngelis  54:55
Thank you and blessings.

Announcer  54:58
Thank you for listening to today's show. Something extra with Lisa Nichols as a Technology Partners Production Copyright Technology Partners Inc. 2019. For show notes, or to reach Lisa, visit tpi.co/podcast, don't forget to leave a review on Apple Podcast, Google Play or wherever you listen, you. 


*Please note, the preceding transcription has been automatically generated and should be used for informational purposes only.