Something Extra

Pursuing Leadership, Legacy & Life w/ John Coleman

• Technology Partners • Episode 314

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John Coleman, Managing Partner at Sovereign’s Capital and Harvard Business Review contributor, shares his passion for leadership, investing, and helping others build meaningful lives. With experience at McKinsey & Company, Invesco, and as the author of Passion & Purpose and How to Argue Like Jesus, John reflects on lessons from working with thousands of founders and leaders. He dives into the intersection of values and strategy, offering practical advice for leaders striving to create a lasting legacy while navigating complex challenges.

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Credits: 
Host: Lisa Nichols
Executive Producer: Jenny Heal
Marketing Support: Landon Burke and Joe Szynkowski
Podcast Engineer: Portside Media

Lisa Nichols  00:03
Chromosomes, little strands of nucleic acids and proteins are the fundamental genetic instructions that tell us who we are. At birth, most people are born with 46 chromosomes, but each year in the United States, about 6000 people are born with an extra chromosome, making them a person with Down syndrome. If you've ever encountered someone with Down syndrome, you know that they are some of the kindest, most joyful people you will ever meet. They truly have something extra. 

My name is Lisa Nichols, and I have spent the last 24 years as both the CEO of Technology Partners and as the mother to Ally. Ally has something extra in every sense of the word. I have been blessed to be by her side as she impacts everyone she meets. Through these two important roles as CEO and mother to Ally, I have witnessed countless life lessons that have fundamentally changed the way I look at the world. While you may not have an extra chromosome, every leader has something extra that defines who you are. 

Join me as I explore the something extra in leaders from all walks of life and discover how that difference in each of them has made a difference in their companies, their families, their communities and in themselves. If you liked this episode today, please go to Apple Podcast or wherever you listen and leave us a five-star rating. 

I'm grateful to have John Coleman on the show today. John is the Co-CEO and Managing Partner at Sovereigns Capital. Well, John Coleman, welcome to the Something Extra Podcast. I have been so looking forward to this conversation with you today, and I appreciate you making the time. I know you're a busy guy.

John Coleman  01:54
Well, Lisa, thank you so much for having me on. It's a great podcast, and I can't wait to talk to you today.

Lisa Nichols  02:01
Absolutely. Well, I have to give a shout out to our mutual friend Jim Bechthold.

John Coleman  02:07
Oh, Jim is wonderful.

Lisa Nichols  02:10
Isn't he? Can we just, like, talk about Jim Bechtold for a while? Is he, like, the most unique individual, so encouraging, so, you know.

John Coleman  02:19
He's like the Kevin Bacon of leaders, I think. I feel like he's kind of everybody's friend. Jim Bechtold and he is, he's just such a delightful person wherever he goes.

Lisa Nichols  02:30
He really is. And you're probably like me. When Jim says, Hey, Lisa, you should meet this person, you meet that person, right? 

John Coleman  02:41
It's always a good introduction. He's so good at that, and he's so open with his network, and he's just such a genuine person. You know, it's hard to build trust in the way that Jim has, and I feel like he's just one of the most trusted guys out there.

Lisa Nichols  02:54
I could not agree with you more, yes, for sure. Well, we have a lot to talk about today, and I realized, John, that probably I'm not going to capture John Coleman in one podcast. There is so much to you. You do so many different things, but we're going to, I'm going to do my best to dig into as much as that we can. But you know right now, you're the Co-CEO of Sovereign's Capital, you're an author for Harvard Business Review. You've written three books. I have one of them here with me. You've just done so much, but I have to tell you a really funny story. So, a couple of months ago, I was attending the Eagle Summit here in St Louis. It was a summit that was founded many years ago by Dr. Tom Hill. Love this man. Love this man. He is. You talk about a connected person. I don't care where you are, John, you could be in Denver and say, Dr. Tom Hill, somebody knows him. It's just, it's incredible. He's just the most giving servant leader. So, he was doing, they were doing a summit, and he, he now is in beginning stages of Alzheimer's, but they were going to honor him on his birthday, on his 89, birthday. And so, I'm driving to the summit and driving down this road, and all of a sudden, I see this guy on the side of the road, pulling a suitcase. He has a suit on. And I'm like, oh gosh, this poor guy. So, I like, pull up, roll down my window. And I said, Hey, would you happen to be going to the Eagle Summit? He said, I am. And I said, well, listen, hop in. I'll take you there because it was raining cats and dogs. And that was Matt Monson.

John Coleman  04:42
Oh my gosh, Matt, oh man. I don't know what it says about our firm that one of our partners is having to hitchhike Lisa, but Yes, Matt leads public equities for us, and he is just the most amazing guy. And I'll have to ask him why he would not. Get a ride in the rain to start with. But thank you for picking him up. I'm glad you did.

Lisa Nichols  05:06
Absolutely we had a good time. And I agree with you. He's such a nice guy, you know, I think. And then, oh, another connection that we have is Michael Tremaine. So, Michael Tremaine is in CEO Forum with me, and we had our annual forum recently at the beginning of October. And I sat next to his wife, Kristen, at dinner.

John Coleman  05:33
Oh, did you really? She's wonderful. And Michael is another one of these guys like Jim, who I feel like just knows everyone. He leads our private equity practice here at Sovereign's, and just an unbelievable man. He's so involved with CEO Forum and New Canaan society and others, and just really pours into a lot of other folks. 

Lisa Nichols  05:54
Yes. Well, he was not at the dinner tonight because he was at the New York Stock Exchange ringing the bell. So, how cool was that, John?

John Coleman  06:07
It was really fun. And that was because so our firm, Sovereign's, recently got to ring the bell. And that's actually a Matt Monson story, because Matt helped to start public equities here, and we eventually launched an exchange traded fund, an ETF on the New York Stock Exchange. And so, for the one-year anniversary, we got to go celebrate for a few hours at the exchange. They have these like beautiful board meetings where they can host you. We had probably 50 of our kind of friends and clients show up. And then we did get to ring the closing bell on a Friday, which was just an unbelievable experience. You know, there's so much history down there, and it's such a cool venue if you've never been before. And for listeners who haven't been, it is worth trying to go to the exchange one time in your life. I mean, it is, it is such a piece of the history of capitalism, and it is a pretty unbelievable experience to get to ring the bell. So, we're all privileged to do that. All our firm leader’s kind of went up there. Matt himself, got to bang the gavel and ring the bell, which was awesome. And Michael and I got to kind of be up there with him. So, it was a wonderful experience.

Lisa Nichols  07:11
Well, that's a bucket list. I'll put that on my bucket list, John, so among many other things. But you know, you're a Columbus, Georgia native. You live in Atlanta now with your wife, Jackie. You've got four children, and here's what I really want to talk about. I do want to talk about Jackie and the kids, but what I really want to talk about is your bearded dragon, Bruce Willis. 

John Coleman  07:36
So, yes, we have this giant lizard called a bearded dragon. So, my house, around child three, we just kind of gave up any aspiration to privacy or personal space at all. So, we have four kids. We've got two dogs, two hamsters right now. And then my son loves reptiles, and we actually rescued this bearded dragon. And for listeners who don't know, bearded dragons are kind of like a little bit smaller than iguanas. They're, you know, they're very nice pets, actually, it turns out. And they even can eat, like vegetarian food, so you don't have to buy all these meal worms and stuff. But he just lives up in a tank in my son's room. And the name Bruce Willis, we have no idea where he came up with that. The original name that my daughter's proposed was sunshine, spiky pancake, which my son rejected. And we asked him what he wanted to call him, and he told us Bruce Willis. And this kid at the time, he was like seven or eight years old, to our knowledge, he'd never seen a Bruce Willis movie. He'd never heard of Bruce Willis. We have no idea where the name came from, and yet we now have a bearded dragon named Bruce Willis. So, fate kind of intervened. 

Lisa Nichols  08:42
That is so funny. I just cracked up when I read that. That's funny. Well, he hasn't, he had not seen any Bruce Willis movies that you know about.

John Coleman  08:53
That we know about, maybe he was at a friend's house or something.

Lisa Nichols  08:58
That is so funny. Well, I've got so many, I've got 50 other questions for you here. No, not that many, but I do have a lot of questions for you, John. But before we dig in all that, I'd love for you to take me back to your childhood. What was childhood like for you? What did you love to do as a little boy?

John Coleman  09:14
You know, so, when I was when I was born, my family lived in Florida. My parents were pretty young at the time, and we lived in Gainesville, because my dad was at the University of Florida, getting, getting a degree. He was also a rodeo cowboy at the time, which was kind of how he made, made ends meet while he was going to school. And he had done that, I think, since he was 15 or 16 years old. He did saddle bronc riding and bull riding in rodeos. And my mom cut hair, and we lived in a little trailer park in Gainesville, Florida, which is like the storm capital of Florida. So, it's not the best place to live in a single wide trailer, but we were there and then I grew up in the panhandle of Florida moved to Columbus, Georgia when I was probably seven or eight, and. I had, you know, by when I was younger, I remember growing up without out so many things. Again, my parents were young. We didn't have a ton of money or anything like that when I was a kid. So, I remember, you know, not having everything that we needed, which I think was, was actually good formative experience for me. And then by the time I was later in elementary school, we were kind of firmly middle class, and eventually, you know, my mom and dad worked such that I had a lot of opportunities to go to college, even went to a Christian High School eventually. 

John Coleman  09:17
But was really formed by this idea that you had to work hard for things, probably a lack of entitlement, just because we didn't have a lot, you know, to be entitled to. And also, this idea that education and hard work are really a way in which you could improve your circumstances, like we always kind of believe that my parents really preached that. So, I worked hard in school. I was your typical little redneck kid. I mean, I was outside a lot. I don't know that I owned shoes until I had to go to school, you know, just having fun playing. I mean, life was more relaxed back then, but always remembered working really hard, being really focused on trying to explore things through education, and having this fundamental belief also in serving others and trying to give back. You know, despite the fact that we didn't have a ton. I remember growing up with this ethos of service in my house. My mom and dad were super involved in church when I was a kid, especially when we moved to Columbus, where I was really remembering things, my dad did Fellowship of Christian Athletes, and my mom volunteered with a foster home and a variety of other things. And so, it always was beat into me that no matter your circumstances, you should be thinking of ways that you can help others, and also that there was all this opportunity out there if you could learn to take advantage of it. And so those were a couple things I think I really internalized as I was growing up and took with me as I advanced into higher education and then out into the workplace.

Lisa Nichols  12:00
Oh, that's so beautiful. I love that, that they instilled that in you. Even though they didn't have much, they still gave what they had, right? I just It reminds me of the story of the widows’ mite, John, and Jesus praised her because she gave what she had, and she gave sacrificially. And that's, that's really beautiful. And I I'm sure that that has informed a lot of what you do today with Sovereign's Capital, and we'll talk more about that. But you said you went on to get a BS degree in economics government at Barry College, and then you also have an MBA and an MPA from Harvard. And I really want to talk about this a little bit later as well. But career wise, John, I counted up 16 different roles you had career wise, that's a lot. 

John Coleman  12:52
Some of those are boards. I'll note that. Some of those are probably boards. Listeners think I'm totally insane. 

Lisa Nichols  12:58
Yes, yes, oh my goodness, well, you just done a lot. I mean, that's really the gist of it, but I'd love to just focus on a few of these things that you've done, but you had a couple different stints at McKinsey. And for our listeners, I'm sure they know Mackenzie, one of the most you know, coved management consulting companies out there, very well respected, iconic what can you just talk a little bit about that experience, and what are some of those key leadership lessons do you feel like you've learned when you were at McKinsey?

John Coleman  13:36
McKinsey was a great experience early in my career. You know, I had never heard of McKinsey until the summer after I graduated college, and I am not a very good planner sometimes. I had really not figured out what to do with my career. And I was assistant director of this fellowship program, and I started looking for a full-time job by looking through the roles of the fellowship programming. And if I saw a company that people worked at more than once, I'd kind of write it down and Google it and try and research it, and McKinsey was one of those that popped up a couple of times. I had never really heard of management consulting, to be honest, at the time, this was not something folks from my undergrad had really been involved in. My parents had still probably don't my I know my mom never totally figured out what I did for a living at that time, but I Googled McKinsey and just applied online and ended up getting a job there. I think I was the first person for my undergrad to go work there. 

John Coleman  14:28
And McKinsey, I think, is one of the best training grounds for business in the world. You transition into this place where I had performed, you know, at the top of my class, but you get there and everybody performed at the top of your class, their class. So, you're thrown into this group of incredibly smart, hardworking, talented people. One of the things I love to say is that, you know, in a professional environment, you can learn something from everyone that you work with, and part of excelling as a professional is just figuring out what it is about the people around you that you can learn from. And McKinsey was just such a rich field for that everyone I encountered was way better than me at something, and I could watch him, and I could learn by osmosis, and I could ask him questions. And so really, I think McKinsey embedded in me this deep sense of curiosity, which I think we'll come back to later, as one of the traits that I think is most important, this idea that things are knowable, and that if you ask the right questions, and if you dig hard enough, you can figure things out. And also, also this kind of growth mindset. You know, one of the things they do at McKinsey is they throw you into the deep end at a very young age. 

John Coleman  15:38
I remember my very first project. I had never worked in business before. I was kind of a liberal arts undergrad. I had done this hedge fund for like a year between undergrad and business, but had not really worked at a business before. And we were working for a publicly listed company. And a weekend of my first project that was presenting to the CEO on something. And I just remember thinking like, I'm 23 years old, I really don't know a fraction of what this person knows about business, but I do know this like one thing that I've spent a lot of time researching this week, pretty well. And I can just try and do the best job I can of that, representing that and just rapidly it taught me how to speak with people far more senior than me, to believe in my own ability to try and learn something, to dig into it, to represent myself well, and that growth mindset, that, that curiosity and the growth mindset. I think, were really a skill that served me well over the course of my entire career, particularly as I became an investor again, and that's at the core of what a lot of good investment is.

Lisa Nichols  16:41
That is so good, John, that was rich. That was rich because I think what I loved about what you said is that you figured out that it's knowable, that it is knowable if you work hard and you study and, and you know, you could have been, it could have been very intimidating to be talking to this CEO right when you're 23 years old. But just, I love that mindset of going, No, I do know this area, and I just think that's really good for people to understand, is there is no one. I don't care who you are. There's no one that knows about everything. And they may know a few things in certain areas more than you do, but there, everyone has something to bring to the table. And I just, I think that that is just really rich what you just said. So, thank you so much for sharing that. I think that will help I think that will help people. But the, you know, the thing is, I think for the majority of your career, you have spent time in investments in private equity. I would love to know what or who inspired this journey. 

John Coleman  17:49
You know, part of it does trace back to my dad and my family. So, I mentioned my dad was a rodeo cowboy. That was not a long-term career choice, it turns out, which my mom was very clear about with him, and so he eventually went to work in agriculture. And I had an uncle who, in the in the 80s, recruited my dad to actually be a financial advisor in the in the early days of financial advice. So, my uncle, who is an entomologist, he studied insects, and at the time was like treating diseased animals, and randomly found his way into a job at Merrill Lynch, kind of cold calling people with a phone book in the 80s, when it was kind of dialing for dollars and you tried to build a practice out of that. Called my dad one day and basically convinced him it was much more comfortable to work inside, in a chair than outside in orange groves. And my dad, who was a pretty good salesman and a pretty smart guy decided that that might be a good thing for him. And so, I grew up with an uncle and a dad who were in financial advice on the wealth management side. And so, they always taught me about investing. I mean, from an early age, I knew about public markets. I really didn't know about private equity and venture capital until I was older, but I had this sense that America in particular, was this place that was dynamic, where people could build businesses, and that markets were there to enable that, and to really not only enable entrepreneurs to grow things and enable the US economy and the global economy to progress, but that it gave people access to those businesses so that we could grow our capital and do transformative things. 

John Coleman  19:21
And so, I knew in my head that I love this idea of financial services, right? Asset Management, investment management, touch everything in the world. They're in every country in the world. They help to create every product. They touch each of us in some way. And as someone who had this, like, big curiosity about the world, I saw investments both as a way to think about things on the biggest scale possible and the smallest scale possible, thinking about starting companies. In a way for this intellectual curiosity that I had to have an outlet, just like consulting, where we would do a different project every three or four months with a different company. Investments allowed me to look at a variety of different companies and business models, and it was just this inexhaustible source of new information, new challenges and new problems. And so, I was always obsessed with investments as this thing that felt so omnipresent to the world around us, but also offered an unending set of new challenges and new things to learn. And it was that, that dynamic that really attracted me to the industry.

Lisa Nichols  20:26
So, have you passed that along to your children? Do they understand investing and that sort of thing, John?

John Coleman  20:32
You know, we're getting there. So, my kids are 11, 10, 6 and 4. I can't say all of them totally understand delayed gratification or investments, yet. My oldest son, in particular, is starting to think about it. We're teaching him about markets a little bit. And one of the fun things for me that I didn't get the chance to do when I was a kid is I've started to bring him on trips sometimes with the investments that we do, especially if it's something fun. So, like this this summer, actually. So, last year, we invested in this movie studio called the Wonder Project, and we helped to start it alongside a couple of phenomenally talented people, Kelly Merryman, John Irwin, Dallas Jenkins, and we set up this new studio as a financial partner to them. And this summer, we got to go to the set of one of their first TV shows. And I was able to bring my son and my wife with me to that. 

John Coleman  21:22
And what I thought was fun about that was it was a way for my son to think about investments, not just as an abstract concept. But to actually see what it means to put financial capital to work to create something so he was getting a sense for entrepreneurship, for the need for financial capital for like, the real-world implications of that in a setting that was that was fun. More fun than staring at a screen with stock prices, necessarily. So, we're trying to get them exposed to it. I don't know that any of them will follow in my footsteps, but, but it is important. I think they, they kind of understand. I think it's important for any kid to understand what their parents do, and to have a good sense for that. And I do think this is an important enough topic that all the kids should get some basic understanding of it. 

Lisa Nichols  22:08
Oh, I cannot agree more personal finance is, it's so important, right? I don't care how much money you make if you don't know how to manage it, right? So funny, because I love what you just said, though you're showing him, yes, what the investments? I mean you're helping him visualize. Hey, without this, without this financial capital, the Wonder Project could not happen, right? It would not happen. You've got to have that. Let me tell you real funny story. So, my husband, Greg, co-founder, technology partners. We have a grandson, Sawyer, who's 12. And so, Greg got him started a couple of years ago with Green Light, okay, doing investments, right? And so recently, we're just as a family, just kind of talking about those triggers in life that really can cause us some worry and anxiousness. And what do you do when that happens? And, and so, Sawyer pipes up and says, you know, I've got some anxiety right now. And we're looking, I mean, he's he plays competitive soccer. We're like, looking at him going, you know, this kid, what do you have to be anxious about? You know? He's like, Yeah, I do have some anxiety right now because one of my stocks is down, and so we're like, oh boy. But anyway, you might look in the Green Light, if you haven't already for, for your 11-year-old. But I want to talk about this. This is so cool. In 2018 John, you were part of the Presidential Leadership Scholars Program. And tell us, first of all, what is this? What's this all about? And, and then I've got a lot of other questions for you.

John Coleman  23:54
It was a phenomenal program. So, you had mentioned in graduate school, both undergrad and graduate school. I did programs in government, so my minor in undergraduate was government, and then I did a master's in Public Administration at the Kennedy School at Harvard alongside my MBA. And I've always believed that, just like finance touches everything, politics and policy touch everything, and I have this just deep interest in these, these things that underpin society, right? And I think finance and public policy are both those sorts of things. You know, I had not done it as my day job before. I had spent most of my time in public policy and public service outside of that, so sitting on local school boards, working with advocacy organizations for public schools, etc. And there came this program called Presidential Leadership Scholars. That really is for folks who are seeking to make an impact in their relevant sphere, whatever that is, whether that be medicine or finance or nonprofit, etc. to come together and, and do a few things. 

John Coleman  24:59
First, you get to think about a leadership project that you're working on, and then work on that project while you're in and I could talk about that. The second is, you just learn about leadership broadly. You get leadership lessons. And then the third is you kind of learn presidential history and politics. And what makes it so interesting is that you learn that from the people who made the history. So, it's sponsored by four Presidential Libraries, Lyndon Johnson's, obviously President Johnson passed away some time ago. George H. W. Bush's Presidential Library, and at the time, he was still alive. He and Barbara were still alive while I was in the program. And then George W. Bush and Bill Clinton. So, two Republicans, two Democrats, those three principles at the time, H. W. Bush, W. Bush, and Clinton all sponsored the program, and then their libraries and foundations kind of supported the program. And it was this fascinating experience where we had 60 incredibly diverse people, every geography in the US, every field of professional work, lots of different political ideologies, and we were getting exposure to leaders from all over the spectrum, including those who had really made history as part of these administrations. 

John Coleman  26:12
I remember there was one in a period of two months. We did one long weekend a month. I had a dinner with Karl Rove and a breakfast with Rahm Emanuel. And I remember the first time we met Bill Clinton, we went to his library. He spent something like eight hours with us one night, just we shut the place down. Wouldn't leave. Loved hanging out and talking with us. George W. Bush, I got to sit at his dinner table one, one dinner, and he spoke with us for probably three or four hours one evening, got to sit next to Laura Bush, who's just probably of all the people I met, she was the most intimidating, because she is probably the most professional and put together human being I've ever encountered, I think. Just a wonderful, wonderful woman. And so, it was just so neat to learn about the history of the presidency, which I was always fascinated with, but also to learn leadership from these folks who made history as part of the presidency across the political spectrum, and then to be able to convert that into something that we were passionate about, which for me was impact investing. Was this project that I took on. So, it was a phenomenal program that I'd really recommend to others if they have a chance to pursue it.

Lisa Nichols  27:24
Very good. And it's about a six-month program, right?

John Coleman  27:27
It's six months, you go one long weekend a month, basically. And then, you know, we have a variety of alumni stuff now and things like that, but it was really transformational. 

Lisa Nichols  27:37
That's so cool. I have a couple of other questions about that, John, but let's take a quick break, and we'll be right back with John Coleman on the Something Extra Podcast.

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Lisa Nichols  28:15
Welcome back everyone to the Something Extra Podcast with John Coleman. So, John, I loved what you just talked about with this Presidential Leadership Scholars Program. How cool is that? So, listeners, if you're interested, go and look that up and you know, you apply for it. Is that right?

John Coleman  28:35
That’s right. It's a competitive application process, but it's available to anyone and, and it's a really fascinating program.

Lisa Nichols  28:42
Well, I know I read a little bit about you, talked about George H. W. And I remember, John, being on an airplane and reading "41," the book "41 "by his son, George, and I could not put that book down. It was so good. He was such a fascinating person, but a very, you know, quiet man, right? But super influential. What else did you learn about George H. W. Bush?

John Coleman  29:17
You know, of all the presidents I encountered during that time, I felt like I left with the greatest renewed appreciation for President Bush, for George H. W. Bush. He was a man from a different era. He was quiet, and in today's age, I think people could confuse that with timidity, you know. But he started his career, he was an incredibly strong athlete throughout his life. He was a hero in World War Two, a pilot was shot down, you know, was, was really a brave man. Had incredible personal character and bravery, and just always comported himself with incredible professionalism. And his career leading up to the presidency was a remarkable one. I mean, he, by the time he became president, was one of the best prepared people to be president, potentially in history. I mean, he had been a congressman, he had been the director of the CIA. He had been, I believe it was Ambassador to China, and I think maybe Ambassador to the United Nations, if I'm remembering properly. He had been a vice president to Ronald Reagan, after a really competitive race with Reagan, and then became President. His, his father had been a senator, actually, from Connecticut. He had been an entrepreneur and business person. 

John Coleman  30:33
So, H. W. Bush just had this remarkable array of experiences, right? His military service, his entrepreneurship, his political experience, and when he took the presidency, he was one of these incredibly well networked people who always focused on relationship, which is why he ended up being one of the most consequential foreign policy presidents, potentially, of the modern era. If you think about the two things that defined the Bush presidency, and I think it's underrated, he was only president for four years. Really, it was a domestic, economic and political situation, as well as just a unique situation where a third-party candidate ran and took a big share of the vote, which meant he didn't get a second term. But the two foreign policy achievements that he had during his, his presidency was one, the collapse of the Soviet Union, which he really oversaw, and second, the first Gulf War. And I think most historians would regard the way in which he handled those as absolutely magnificent. I mean that when he oversaw the fall of the Soviet Union, he really had the instinct not to kind of step on them while they were down, but to befriend Gorbachev, who was the Soviet Premier at that time, to make sure that the Soviet Union wasn't punished, they weren't publicly ridiculed, that the United States actually leaned in with the former Soviet republics and with the president of then, of then Russia, in order to make sure that it was a smooth transition, and it was really a trust for Bush himself that allowed Gorbachev, I think, to accept that transition, because he knew that Bush was someone he'd known for a long time that he felt had the character to be a good partner during that. 

John Coleman  32:15
And of course, you know, that was a 50-year cold war that ended without a bullet, right? I mean, it ended without violence. It was one of the most remarkable historical events of our lifetimes. And then in the first Gulf War, you know, at that time, Saddam Hussein had invaded Kuwait, there was a violation of international law. And for those unfamiliar, George H. W. Bush worked with his Secretary of State, James Baker, who has another book out that's remarkable recently, or book about him recently. And they got one of the most unified coalitions of international partners in history. They took the time to go around the world and recruited almost the entire world in unified opposition to, to Iraq's invasion of Kuwait, into the aggression that they showed, and they ended that war in an incredibly brief period of time because of just the weight of the international coalition aligned against Iraq. And so, George H W Bush had this foreign policy legacy, also extending back through his time as vice president CIA director, that was incredibly strong. 

John Coleman  33:20
And then what I got a sense for when I was in the program, and I'm sorry, I'm speaking so long, but he actually such a fascinating character, was just the respect, the universal respect, that he garnered. One of the coolest things, I think I learned was Bill Clinton, to this day, almost considers George H. W. Bush like an adoptive father. And you know, Clinton beat George H. W. Bush, Barbara had a harder time forgiving him for that, I think, than, than H. W. did. And famously, people should Google this, H. W. Bush left him this incredibly gracious letter when he left office, saying, You're my president. I'm rooting for you. And from that moment on, and, and then, really, after Clinton's presidency, Bill Clinton started to look to H. W. Bush as a mentor, as a counselor, as a friend. And when we were in the program, you know, we had Bill Clinton and George W. Bush on stage together at one point in the just incredible admiration that they shared for, for President Bush, for the senior President Bush, and how that was echoed through both of their administrations, I don't think a single person said a single negative thing, was a testament to even though people disagreed with his policies, his character and investment in people just shown through. And I was just blown away by that universal respect and admiration and how he cultivated that.

Lisa Nichols  34:44
I mean, the thing that I am thinking the whole time, John, that you're talking, is just character, a man of the highest character. And I have read, I think there is a collection, honestly, and this has been years ago, a collection of letters. 

John Coleman  35:01
Yes.

Lisa Nichols  35:03
George H. W. Bush was known for writing letters to people. And kind of, to your point. I mean, relationships were important. People were important. And just to have that kind of respect, you know, the character is, is the thing that, you know, was just, he was uncompromising on so I just, I appreciate that so much. 

John Coleman  35:25
And he never lost that sense of adventure, though, which was also fun. I think he jumped out of a plane on his 90th birthday. And then one of the stories, I think it was Bill Clinton told, you know, they had this place in Kennebunkport, and he used to keep a speed boat up there. And I think it was Bill Clinton, I apologize if it wasn't, but I think it was him saying the first time he got on the boat with him, you know, George H. W. Bush was not a young man at the time, and he used to drive this boat at a completely unsafe speed all around. And I remember he just was saying he just felt like he was clinging to his life the entire time. So, the Senior Bush never lost his sense for adventure in the midst of building those relationships.

Lisa Nichols  36:04
That is so funny. That is really funny. I love that story. Well, you're, John, this is funny to me. Now, you know you say your hobby is writing, but you've written three books. You've written three books. I've got the one here, the one I really wanted, and this one's called "Miracles," and it's got wonderful endorsements. So, listeners go out and get that book, but the one I really kind of want to dig into a little bit here, John is the "HBR Guide to Crafting Your Purpose." And you said really that your time in the Presidential Leadership Scholars Program really influenced this work that you did. But, yeah, I think you even feature some of your folks from your cohort, some women from your cohort. I love what you wrote here. You said, we are living through a crisis of purpose when huge numbers of people are feeling lonely, directionless and disengaged, part of why it's so difficult for many of us to live purposefully is a series of fundamental myths we hold about finding our purpose. We don't find our purpose, we build it, and each one of us had the opportunity every day to craft a more meaningful life. I think that is just beautiful. So, can you dig into that a little bit? We don't find our purpose. Because I think that's what people I don't know what my purpose is. What is my purpose? Constantly looking for finding your purpose. But you say you build your purpose.

John Coleman  37:42
Absolutely. And I think that misunderstanding is at the heart of this crisis of purpose we're experiencing. I mean, if you, if you look around the world, and especially around the developed world right now, we've never been richer, we've never been more technologically advanced, we've never been healthier, we've never been safer, and yet, all of the readings related to purpose, happiness, flourishing, etc, are kind of declining, right? They're going in the wrong direction. People are angrier, they're lonelier, they're more disconnected. They feel like they don't have a strong sense of meaning. There are tons of statistics to back this up, particularly in their professional lives, right? Where so many people you know, there are some surveys that say it may be as low as 15% of people are engaged at work, right? And I think that's a challenge to us as individuals, because that means most of us, individually or not, are not getting a great sense of meaning in our work or personal lives. It's also a challenge to leaders, because that means, if that's true, you know, more than four out of five people are walking into the company you lead every day, or the business unit you lead every day, and they're not getting a sense of purpose from this thing they do 40 hours a week, right? They're not going home better than they came into work, which I think is one of the things we as leaders want to cultivate. And I do think some of that traces to a fundamentally flawed view of purpose that we have in the modern era. 

John Coleman  39:03
I really focused on this question, how do I find my purpose? Because it was the first question I got when I wrote a prior book, "Passion and Purpose" at a book group, and I didn't really answer it well. So, I spent six or seven years trying to dig into why, why it was so difficult to answer that question, how do I find my purpose? And I began to think that it had three fundamental flaws. The first is that purpose isn't a thing you find. It's something you make or build, and I'll circle back to that. The second is, I don't think purpose is a single thing. I think we can give ourselves a lot of anxiety looking for one thing to define our entire lives. And a lot of young people do that with career. Some people do that with a relationship, right? The problem is, when you predicate your entire sense of self-worth or meaning on a single thing, you can have great anxiety about finding that, and then if you lose it, it crushes your entire world. And so, I think we all have multiple sources of purpose in our lives. And then the third is, I think those change over time, right? A lot of people at my age, middle age, begin to get very disillusioned. They feel like they've wasted their lives, or that they're not feeling meaning anymore. And what I try and talk to people about through the book is that that's natural, that we're not intended to have a single, sole source of purpose for our entire lives apart from faith. I think faith, you know, being a parent, there are certain things that are permanent, which we talk about in the book. But your job, your professional calling, that can change. You can actually change what you get meaning and purpose from throughout your life, and most people do. 

John Coleman  40:31
And so, the book really encourages people to take a step back, to reconceive a purpose, to become more comfortable with this idea that it's not a single thing that they should be mining all of the areas of their life for meaning and purpose, that those can change over time, and that they have the agency to create it. I think one of the saddest things that I encounter is when someone's feeling disillusioned or purposeless and they're just waiting for something to happen to them, right? It's the Hollywood version. It's like Neo in the Matrix, just kind of working a dead-end job and bored and waiting for something to happen. We, each and every day, have the opportunity not to wait, but to act, to really seize on the work that we have and make it more purposeful. And a lot of what I dig into in the book are the different strategies that I encourage people for finding all those multiple sources of purpose in their life, for mining them, and then for trying to craft their work and their life to be more purposeful, to take ownership of it, and if they're not feeling purpose, to build more purpose into the work that they do every day by reconceiving of it, restructuring it. And what I think is liberating about that message is you don't have to wait. It's not something that's acted out on you. It allows you to take more agency and ownership of your life and do something different and transformational with it

Lisa Nichols  41:47
That is so good. Can you whet our appetite just a little bit, John? Give us one of those strategies, one of those things in the book that you talk about.

John Coleman  41:56
Absolutely. So, in terms of how to enhance purpose at work. I have basically four, four different ways in which you do that, one of which is something called job crafting in the management literature. And you may have spoken about that on, on this podcast before Lisa, it was popularized by a woman from Yale. And job crafting is basically making the job you have the job that you want, so it's changing small things about your work so that you can make it more meaningful. And one of the first examples the researchers wrote about was hospital janitorial staff. And they followed a series of hospital janitors. That's a tough job, right? Hospitals are messy, they're chaotic, and these janitors were taking care of long-term patients, and they tried to figure out what made some of them really happy and what made some of them less happy and less flourishing. And what they found was the ones that were really happy and flourishing in their work, the one who found meaning were changing small things about their assigned jobs to make them more meaningful. 

John Coleman  42:59
So, one of the people they followed would shift around the artwork in the rooms of the different patients in long term care because she thought that was important, so that they could experience beauty and variety, even though they were sick and they were suffering. One person would take home cleaning solutions and experiment with which cleaning solutions were best for less irritation, to try and become a part of the care staff of the people there, so they weren't just mailing it in and doing what people told them to do. They were shaping their jobs so that they could see themselves, and they were, in fact, an essential part of the care team, making their patients lives better, and by crafting their even that administrative or janitorial job into something more meaningful, more impactful, and something they could really perfect, that they could. They could work as a craft, right, that they could. They could work to try and be better every day. That gave them a lot more purpose. And so, this idea of job crafting is one of the most important that we explore in the book.

Lisa Nichols  43:57
That's so good. Thank you so much for wetting our appetite little appetizer. Now, everybody go get the book. Everybody go get the book. Well, let's we've got a few more minutes here. I want to pivot to Sovereign's Capital. So, you came on board as Co-CEO in February 2021, first of all, what attracted you to the firm, John? How did that all come about? What attracted you? And then talk a little bit about missions and value the mission and values of the organization.

John Coleman  44:25
Well, it connects a little bit to what we were just discussing, because I started writing this book on purpose in 2019 COVID hit. There were a variety of circumstances, but I got really convicted early in 2020 that while I was living purposefully in a lot of areas of my life. I really had lost or I wasn't achieving as much purpose as I wanted to in my professional life. And I thought, if I'm going to write a book telling people to take ownership of this and how to do it, I really have no excuse not to take my own advice. And so, I ended up leaving my old firm, which was a larger. Investment management firm I'd been at for nine years. Fine people there, so this is not a criticism of anyone there at all, but I just needed, needed to progress on the next phase of my journey. And I got convinced of a couple of things. One is I wanted to do something far more entrepreneurial. So, the last firm I was at, I was an executive, but it was a one and a half trillion-dollar investment manager, huge place. And the second was I wanted to be deeply values aligned, right? And in particular, my faith was very important to me, and so I was wondering if there was a way that I could integrate my faith. 

John Coleman  45:32
And I never really thought about the idea that I could be an investor, investing according to my faith at all. It almost never occurred to me. And I met these two guys, Henry Kaestner and Luke Roush, who had founded Sovereign's. And they founded Sovereign's to be a faith driven investment manager, meaning our mission as we've defined it today, is to love God and love our neighbor through investing. And so, we really view our investing as an outgrowth of our faith and look to increase human flourishing along the principles of our fate through the company's real estate and development developments and projects that we invest in. And this just kind of blew my mind when I encountered these guys, that you could combine this thing I love, investing with these values that I had held so dear. And so, within a couple of months, I had agreed to come on board with them. They needed someone to come in and help set a vision for the firm, institutionalize it, grow it, Faith driven investing at that time, and still is pretty nascent. You know, it was a new part of the industry. We're still defining it. And Sovereign's was relatively new and small at the time. And so, I was able to come in and partner with Luke and Henry, stepped aside, actually, to run the nonprofits that we founded, Faith driven investor and faith driven entrepreneur. And we also work together as partners today. And Luke and I set off on this journey to try and build and grow Sovereigns, believing that we can, on one hand, offer our clients a way to invest that was deeply aligned with faith, but also allowed them to be good stewards so had good investment returns, and on the other end, meant that we could use investment capital to create flourishing in the world. That we could really, you know, do something positive with those investment dollars in the world. So that's kind of the mission that we balance each day.

Lisa Nichols  47:14
And who wouldn't want to do that? Create flourishing in the world?

John Coleman  47:18
It's pretty fun. It's pretty fun. I don't know why everybody doesn't do it, Lisa.

Lisa Nichols  47:22
Exactly, exactly. Well, tell you know, we're a technology company. How have you seen technology change the way investments are done, and what do you see in the future with that, John?

John Coleman  47:35
Oh, absolutely. So, you know, there's one question about, what are we investing in technology. There's another about how technology itself is changing investments. You know, we have an early-stage venture capital firm, so one of the beautiful things we get to do is do seed in series A investments in technology companies. And it's, it is so fun. I mentioned earlier that, like, it's kind of a big secret in my mind, that investing is like the most fun thing in the world, because you just get to look at 1000s of different business models and entrepreneurs, you get to experience all of these incredibly cool things. And we get to back entrepreneurs who are at the frontiers of virtual reality artificial intelligence. We've got an entrepreneur we love, named Rinji with company called Immersed that's coming out with a competitor. Well, I maybe shouldn't phrase it that way, but a visor that can do augmented reality. You know, where you can wear these glasses and work in virtual world and throw up all, you know, so, all this cool stuff, and it also gives us access to like, how is this going to transform our industry? I see that happening in a few ways. 

John Coleman  48:36
One is, I think artificial intelligence is already having an impact on the way in which we do some of our work. Chat GPT is and other tools like it are actually remarkably good at doing analyst work in private equity right now, when I'm giving a talk on a macroeconomic topic. I can literally put chat GPT audio on and I have a conversation with it about historical economic data, and it's I can usually tell if it's right. You need to know enough to know if it's hallucinating, but, if it's right, it can run fundamental analysis if you give it the right inputs now. So, we're seeing how that's accelerating. The video transformation that transformed during COVID, the world has made investment totally different. I mean, we are able now to invest around the country and around the world in a time efficient way that was not possible when everyone was doing in person meetings or just over the phone. Video technology and even augmented reality and virtual reality, where you can you can work in these virtual co working spaces has made the ability to interact with those with whom you're not physically present light years ahead of where it was four or five years ago. And that's been a huge transformation. 

John Coleman  49:50
And then we also have to worry about how each of those things is impacting our underlying investments, and that's everything from the super high-tech virtual reality and cybersecurity firms to like, we're an investor in the largest used fire truck company in America. And we have to think really carefully about the ways in which that fire truck company can seize on new technology, whether it's within the vehicles themselves, whether it's training for the mechanics who make everything work properly, whether it's the networks by which municipalities connect with those opportunities. You know, if you think about it, those new technologies are touching almost everything that we have. And so, in my mind, it's kind of cool that we get to do early-stage venture investing, because I feel like it gives us this, this look ahead to the things that will transform both our industry and the industries that our underlying investments are in.

Lisa Nichols  50:40
Oh, that's so good. That is so good. Well, we're, we're wrapping up here pretty quickly. But you know, if you could give one piece of advice, John, to a younger professional, what would it be?

John Coleman  50:55
So, this, you asked this question advance, and we talked about it a little bit earlier. My big thing for young leaders is curiosity. Like I think that curiosity is at the very heart of being someone with a growth mindset. It's at the very heart of problem solving in business. It's at the very heart of empathy for others and relationship building, because it's all about curiosity about the inner lives of other people and about what they experience. And I think as long as you have curiosity and a belief that through curiosity you can solve problems, that you can come to know and understand things, you have almost unlimited potential in business. And as an investor, I would say curiosity is, is absolutely the cornerstone skill set that you need. You need to be able to look at a business and not be satisfied with the superficial understanding of it, but ask the next question and the next question and just be obsessed with understanding it in new and different ways. And I think it's at the heart of being an entrepreneur as well. You know, I recently read, I read all of Walter Isaacson's biographies, and there were three that I've read over the last 5 or 6 years. He did the Jobs biography, Steve Jobs, Elon Musk and Einstein. And that was a theme through all of those, right? If you read it all, three of those men were incredibly curious about the world around them and never satisfied with their understanding of things. And so, when I talk to leaders, I tell them, Don't get complacent. Don't settle for the superficial. Be curious, stay curious. And if you're curious, you can build better relationships, you can solve bigger problems, and you'll always stay motivated in your work.

Lisa Nichols  52:39
That is so good, that is so good. So, you just answered the question. John Coleman, what do you believe is the something extra every leader needs?

John Coleman  52:49
I jumped the gun. Sorry, Lisa,

Lisa Nichols  52:50
It's okay. It's okay, because you just gave a beautiful explanation. But curiosity and one thing that I had not because that that has come up before on leaders that I've interviewed John, but you know, usually they're like, curious about how the world works, and don't get complacent. Ask the questions. But what you said is, get curious about people too.

John Coleman  53:15
Oh, the most complicated thing you encounter every day is another person. It's far more complicated than world around you.

Lisa Nichols  53:22
Yes, right. And staying curious, and, oh my goodness, I just think, wow, if that were really the case, you know, how many of the world's problems could we solve? Just be curious. Don't be judgmental, but just be curious. And say, Well, why do you tell me more about why you believe that way, or, or whatever the case may be. So that's really awesome. So, thank you so much for answering that question. But what, tell me this, and then we need to close up here, but what, John, when you think about your life, John Coleman, what is the legacy that you want to leave in the world?

John Coleman  54:02
I think one of the motivating things for me, you know, everybody's life is complicated. No one wants to be boiled down to one word. But if I could pick one word, it would probably be opportunity. I feel like, and I've had a friend, Rye Barcott, who says this, talent is universal, opportunity is not. And I think throughout my life, I've been given this opportunity to pursue things that I otherwise might not have because of the people in my life who have opened doors for me, and one of the things that I think I'm most called to do is to try and create opportunity for others. It's something I try and do as a dad, obviously, with my family. It's one of the reasons my wife and I, for us in public policy, education is our big thing. And we want to see schools succeed. We want to see every kid get an equal opportunity at a great chance at life. And we think that's the promise of America, is that we provide that type of education to people. And then, even as an investor, I love this idea that I can help bring the financial capital and occasional expertise to help someone realize their dreams. And particularly, you know, in the in the way that we invest realize their dreams to build something that can help others right, that can really be an essential part of people's lives. And so, this idea of, how do I spend every waking moment of my day trying to help others see and seize the opportunity in their lives, is really a calling for me. 

Lisa Nichols  55:21
That is beautiful, beautiful, beautiful. What a legacy. Well, John, this has been so much fun. Thank you so much for making the time. I just know that your store, your insight, your wisdom, is really going to help our listeners. And it's just so much fun just getting to spend this time with you. So, thank you so much. 

John Coleman  55:40
Thank you, Lisa, and thank you for the work you do here. It's really important, and you're helping all of us learn more about leadership. So, we appreciate it.

Announcer  55:47
Thank you for listening to today's show Something Extra with Lisa Nichols as a Technology Partners Production Copyright Technology Partners Inc. 2019. For show notes, or to reach Lisa, visit tpi.co/podcast. Don't forget to leave a review on Apple Podcasts, Google Play, or wherever you listen.


*Please note, the preceding transcription has been automatically generated and should be used for informational purposes only.