Success, Reflection, and a Life Worth Living w/ Jae Chung

Jae Chung, Managing Partner at Bespoke Compass, shares his powerful journey from feeling lost and isolated at the height of his career to becoming an executive coach dedicated to helping leaders find purpose and fulfillment. With a unique background spanning molecular biology, theology, intellectual history, and two decades of ministry across the globe, Jae brings a rich perspective to the challenges of success. In this episode, he reveals how self-awareness, reflection, and meaningful connections can turn professional achievements into a life well-lived.

Guest Links:

• Jae’s LinkedIn
• Bespoke Compass

Credits: 
Host: Lisa Nichols
Executive Producer: Jenny Heal
Marketing Support: Landon Burke and Joe Szynkowski
Podcast Engineer: Portside Media

Transcript

Lisa Nichols  00:03
Chromosomes, little strands of nucleic acids and proteins are the fundamental genetic instructions that tell us who we are. At birth, most people are born with 46 chromosomes, but each year in the United States, about 6000 people are born with an extra chromosome, making them a person with Down syndrome. If you've ever encountered someone with Down syndrome, you know that they are some of the kindest, most joyful people you will ever meet. They truly have something extra. 

My name is Lisa Nichols, and I have spent the last 24 years as both the CEO of Technology Partners and as the mother to Ally. Ally has something extra in every sense of the word. I have been blessed to be by her side as she impacts everyone she meets. Through these two important roles as CEO and mother to Ally, I have witnessed countless life lessons that have fundamentally changed the way I look at the world. While you may not have an extra chromosome, every leader has something extra that defines who you are. 

Join me as I explore the something extra in leaders from all walks of life and discover how that difference in each of them has made a difference in their companies, their families, their communities and in themselves. If you liked this episode today, please go to Apple Podcast or wherever you listen and leave us a five-star rating. 

I'm grateful to have Jae Chung on the show today. Jae is a partner at Bespoke Compass. Well, Jae Chung, welcome to the Something Extra Podcast. I am so delighted that you are making the time to join me today on the show.

Jae Chung  01:35
I'm delighted too. Thank you for inviting me. 

Lisa Nichols  01:53
We're gonna have a lot of fun. I believe, when you moved to St Louis in 2019 you moved with your wife Grace and your three children, and you were new to the area, and you met. Somehow, you met Dr. Tom Hill. You may have met him through Pastor Eric Lawson. I don't know that, but you met Dr. Tom Hill. And then Dr. Tom Hill said, Lisa, you need to meet Jae Chong. And then you came and sat down in my office, and we had a wonderful conversation. And then you and I saw each other again recently at Dr. Hill's Eagle Summit, and I was so happy to reconnect with you there.

Jae Chung  02:35
Me too. I remember that day both days. It was very memorable. Thank you for welcoming me into the Midwest area. 

Lisa Nichols  02:43
Yes. Well, we're so happy to have you here, and we have so much to talk about. You have such an interesting background, Jae, you have a very interesting background. You've done multiple things in your career. I think you've traveled over 40 different countries. That is incredible. So, we have a lot to dig into, but I want you to take me back to growing up, because I know you grew up in Seoul, South Korea. What was life like for you in South Korea?

Jae Chung  03:13
I mean, I was young, so I was born there, and was raised there till I was 10, and I came to United States as a 11-year-old boy with my parents as an immigrant. So, first 10 years of life, you know, even if you lived anywhere else, you're just a child in some sense, so you're not an adult. So, you experience the country from that point of view. I had lots of friends, you know, just toys, running around. Didn't study much. I think I had a lot of fun playing in the playground until mom called me in to eat. And so, it's very typical life. I really didn't know Korea as a country, you know, you don't think that way. I mean, obviously everybody looked like me, and so there was a uniformity there, and so on. But raised in a very loving family, Mom and Dad were, were very good to me, you know, as my childhood memories filled with their, their memories of being kind and being a great example.


Lisa Nichols  04:14
I, I grew up the same way Jae and I, I count my blessings every day for that, because I know that's not always the case. But you know, I know that. I don't know when you did this, but I you know I read something or I watched something. I can't remember, but I know you played the violin, you did Judo, you were really good at math. I think your mom wanted you to be a doctor. 

Jae Chung  04:41
Yes, that was her prayer request for like, 10 years, probably.

Lisa Nichols  04:46
And you didn't end up, you, you ended up going to school, but you didn't become a doctor. But I wanted to ask you this so you did when you were 11. You did your family did immigrate to the United States, and I think you settled in California. What was the precipice for that move? I assume it was your parent’s jobs. But it could have been for another reason. I don't know what that reason was.

Jae Chung  05:13
It was really the, the driver was my mom. My mom became Christian through series of events, and most significant being her being diagnosed with a throat cancer in her throat as an ex-opera singer, that was devastating to lose a lot of her vocal ability. But to think that you're going to be, you know, your life is going to be cut short because of the cancer at such a young age was devastating for her. But long story short, she believes that her meeting Christ at the young age of 30 something, Christ, healed her. And through that experience, a person that was teaching, well, she was the choir director at Buddhist temple, you know, most of her adult life. And then she becomes this champion of the Gospel through meeting Christ in her own very unique way, at the end of her, what could have been end of her life, and Christ heals her, and she comes home and says, Hey, we got to go to church. We got to worship this God. I mean, it doesn't get it as any more dramatic than that conversion story. And then a few months later, she says, family, we, we need to leave because she was very much persecuted for being a Christian now. In a family setting rich with Buddhist culture and, and tradition, and her mother-in-law, father-in-law not being supportive at all, but just to give you a glimpse of it, burning Bible on Sundays in my house. And so, my mom and dad decided we're gonna go. And to this day, her words ring in my ear. She says we're gonna go to a country where it's free to worship Jesus. And so that was the biggest reason why I think they pursued immigrant, path of immigration to us. We settled in, yes, briefly in Hawaii, but mainly in San Francisco, Bay Area.

Lisa Nichols  07:36
Certainly, Jae C. I did not know that about your mom, but what a defining moment for you in your life to have her say, we're going to move to America where you're free to worship Jesus, because your life is different because of that decision, for sure. You went on to UC Berkeley to pursue this degree in molecular cell biology because your parents wanted you to be a doctor. Is that? Is that who inspired you? I mean, were you thinking that you were going to, to follow this path that your mom had prayed for? Is that what you originally thought?

Jae Chung  08:16
Like any, I don't want to say any, but many of East Asian kids, you know, especially son, I guess. Your mom plays a humongous role in every decision you make. It's not the case anymore, I hear, but hey back in my day, it was, it was, it wasn't even church that was telling you to obey your parents. It was church, plus the Bible, plus Asian culture that says you got to honor your parents. And part of that, and of course, you know, since that, that time, I don't think of honor in exactly that way, but the honor meant you do everything that your mom or dad tells you to do. You know what you major in college? What do you do with your life, and so on and so forth. So, putting parents above all else, which, which is really, really dangerous, you know, when you read the Bible, and yet, I didn't, I didn't know any better. So, I wanted to be a good kid. So, I told myself, yeah, I got to be a physician one day. So, I studied, you know, cell biology in college, taking MCATs and stuff like that.

Lisa Nichols  09:22
Oh, my goodness. And I know you said you were really good at math. You know you were good at math, you were good at the sciences. But wow, I mean, did your academic journey take a turn? Because you, you went to school for that, but then you went on to get a, an masters of divinity, theology, intellectual history. And then I think you went on to get a doctorate in intellectual history. I mean, what was the what was the pivot there, Jae, to do that? And what did your mom and dad say when you told them what you wanted to do?

Jae Chung  10:03
Well, my dad, when I when he heard that in the middle of college or towards the end of college, when I told my parents I believe that God is wanting me to go to seminary school and pursue this becoming a pastor. My dad, who was also a pastor, a Presbyterian pastor. He was very supportive, but he couldn't openly support me because of mom, of course, his wife, you know, who was adamant that Jesus would never do such thing to her. You know, after all these years of following her, right? And so, she said, You know what, I gotta go talk to Jesus. Give me a week. So, she fasts and prays. I mean, who does that right for her son, wanting to pursue ministry? Well, she did. She said, I gotta have a one-to-one talk with Jesus. And she comes back and she goes, Hey son, listen up. So, Jesus and I made a deal. All right, so here's the here's the deal. So, go to medical school, become a doctor, and then I'll let you go do, do mission field. So, medical missionary is, is now the new deal. 

Jae Chung  10:03
And to that, I think almost first time in my life I made a very strong stance against what my mom's opinion of my life should be. I said, Mom, you raised me to be a Christian. I got to follow God. This is what I do. And in part because of you. I want to follow Jesus. I want to follow God with all my heart, and I want to give the best of what I have to God, not what's left of me. And whether you like it or not, I'd like to go to seminary and pursue this path because I believe God laid that on my heart. And Mom, can I follow God instead of what you're telling me to do? And she cried and cried. I mean, have you seen your mom just cry and cry and just broke down. But thankfully, she loved the Lord as well. And she turned around. There was fast turnaround, actually, a few days afterwards, she didn't talk to me for a few days, and she comes back and says, You know what? I think you gotta obey God. And so, she's been supportive ever since then. So, I give mom a lot of credit. 

Lisa Nichols  12:30
That's wonderful. Oh my goodness, I love that story. Well, you've lived in a lot of different places, Jae, you know we've already talked Seoul, Korea, San Francisco, Hawaii, New York. You've been to over 40 different countries. How is all of that contributed to your world view? I mean, you call yourself a bridge maker among diverse cultural groups, and I'm sure that that's really informed, you know, even your leadership style and how you approach even what you're doing today with your executive coaching. But, you know, talk to me a little bit about that.

Jae Chung  13:08
Yes, even immigrant experience gives you a unique window to see the world because you are from sort of East, right? One of the, you know, kind of a, one of the countries that you would think of China. So East Asians, Korea, is part of that community. And you see the world certain way, right? More holistic, yin and yang. I mean, you just feel kind of that's the cultural milieu of East Asia, honor, you know, on all of that, hierarchy, rigidity, collective thinking, and all of that that becomes the norm. And then you come to United States, land of the free, free thinking, you know, no more not stepping on your teachers’ shadows because you got to honor them. We honor people differently here. We honor people by listening to them. You know, right to vote. You know, voice your opinion. Creativity is very much loved here. 

Jae Chung  14:15
And so, you begin to realize, oh, things are right here, and the way it, it is run here. I mean, it's, there's some norms that are considered great here, but, but so is over there, right? And so, you begin to realize, oh, okay, when there's a difference, it doesn't mean one is necessarily wrong. It could be wrong, but not necessarily so. Just because there's a difference in thought or perspective or world view doesn't mean one of them is wrong, or both are right, or both are wrong. You have to ask deeper questions. So, at a very young age, I begin to not immediately jump to whatever I am uncomfortable. I'm just going to say it's wrong, to, whenever I see a difference that I don't feel comfortable with, I'm going to lean in and ask appropriate question, ask and then discover and then relate, rather than judge, dismiss and move on, right? So that's the kind of habit that was developed in me at a very young age, because I just, I just knew that, oh, the people in the East perceive the medicine certain way people in the West see a certain way. Is more medicine better or prescriptive, or prescription better, or kind of a, you know, holistic care of your body, right? better? Who knows, right? The debate is still going. But do we have to choose one? Is there strength in both, right? 

Lisa Nichols  15:44
I love that. I think that's such a great formula. I'm going to repeat that. Ask, discover and relate.

Jae Chung  15:51
Discover and relate, not the other way around, right? 

Lisa Nichols  15:55
Yes, oh, I love it. That is so that is so unique. I really like that. Ask, discover, relate. So, that's so good. Well, are there any experiences from one of the 40 countries that you've traveled to, Jae, that really significantly impacted even your perspective on leadership.

Jae Chung  16:25
I see, I found, I mean, there could be many examples, but I found that the best leaders, whether they're in any culture, any culture, it may look a little different, because tribal leader in Senegal is a little bit different than a leader in the community in Russia, is very different than North Korean refugees living in China, for example. They all look very different in the cursory look. But if you seek the heart of the matter, what happens is that you look little deeper and, and they are great leaders in every culture is looking for and deliberately seeking the heart of the matter. You know, they're, they're seeking simple question like, what's the essence of this? What's the substance behind all this mess? What's the spirit of the law, instead of just letter of the law? So, they're digging deeper, and they have this ability to see the heart of the matter, rather than just the surface. And I think that that's something that I've witnessed in all the all the places I visited around the world, it just looks a little bit different.

Lisa Nichols  17:43
But there are similarities. There are similarities. 

Jae Chung  17:46
More similarities than differences. 

Lisa Nichols  17:49
I mean, we haven't traveled to 40 countries, but we have done some mission trips in some developing countries, and it was eye opening for me, because what I realized, Jae, is yes, our situations were different, and there, there are definitely differences, cultural differences. But the thing that really was impressed on me, that the people there were very similar to us. They want good things for their children. They, they love their children. They would do anything for there's so many similarities. You know, they want to do better in life. So, I think those are the things that, if we can focus on those things, right? And look for the similarities, I mean, it can really, truly unite us more than sometimes looking at the diversity piece.

Jae Chung  18:43
That's right, so important.

Lisa Nichols  18:47
So human, the human what makes us human? So, so you've pastored for you went on to be a pastor. You did that for 20 years, and I think, and you can tell me more about this, but you pastored one of the largest churches in South Korea. In fact, I think you were over what 200 over 200 pastors. You were the leader over 200 pastors.

Jae Chung  19:09
I was in a team. There are many, many large churches around in Asia, especially just because the cities are compact and people can't get around. It would be, you know, 100,000 member church there would be likened to 10,000 people here, just because people all travel by car, and you just can't draw that many people to these churches. But it's, it was an interesting experience of, I've served as part of a team small churches that were 40-50, member churches. You know, the whole body is about 30-40, members to 100 member church, 500, 1,000, 20,000 85,000. But what really gets me going is that Christ loves all churches, and healthier is better, not certain size. You can be healthy and not healthy in any size of church I've seen, I think all examples.

Jae Chung  19:12
Was the church that you served at? About 85,000 members?

Jae Chung  19:36
No, it was about 85,000 members.

Lisa Nichols  20:28
85,000 members, right. Large church. That's such a great point. It's more important about the health of the church rather than the size. And you can be a 50 member church and be healthier, maybe, right? 

Jae Chung  20:43
Or unhealthy. Smaller doesn't mean healthier. And it's incredible how we have that sometimes kind of a fixed kind of idea of a size of a church. I think Jesus probably would look at all of our churches and kind of measure it very differently. Certainly, I don't think the number is the end all the measurement, right? 

Lisa Nichols  21:09
Well, I know that. I know that you moved to St Louis in 2019 but you were in Korea, and then you decided to move back to or, you decided to move to Korea. You were there for a long time, and then ended up moving back to the States. And I just want you to tell me real quickly about where you moved to, because you and I have some commonality there, and then we need to take a quick break and we'll come right back. But where did you move to, when you moved back, Jae?

Jae Chung  21:40
It was to Lexington, Kentucky. I stayed there for six months. 

Lisa Nichols  21:46
And Greg and I, Greg and I grew up in Western Kentucky and Paducah, so that's where we were born and raised. Went to school and were recruited here to work for McDonnell Douglas right out of college. But I listened to something that you said, and I'd love for you just to talk about that experience. You said that you went from 150 miles an hour to 10 miles an hour.

Jae Chung  22:13
Oh, yeah.

Lisa Nichols  22:15
What was the difference that you saw? And what did that time, Because I think, I think at that time, and I don't want to put words in your mouth, Jae, but I think at that time, you were experiencing some burnout. And it was a healing time for you just to have this little bit of a slower pace. Can you, can you just kind of describe your experience when you were in Kentucky for that six month?

Jae Chung  22:39
Kentucky doesn't have high rises, you know, it's not full of filled with blocks and blocks of concrete. It's got so much green and on Sundays, you know. I would weekends would be busiest time of life for me. But in Kentucky, I just attended a church service and enjoyed conversations little bit, and then would come home and mow the lawn of next-door neighbor. You know, it was such a pace of life that was never, really, I never allowed that to myself. You know, Sabbath, where I'm sitting there just drinking coffee with a friend or without agenda, you know, checking the boxes, just fully being present with my family, cooking for my kids. I just never done that for duration of my kids’ lives. And so, it was such a gift. To this day, my wife and I say those six months in Kentucky were probably the, the most heavenly tasting moments of our lives, even though I was reeling from lots of pain and sorrow and repentance and heartache, even so. You know, I was basking in God's love in those six months.

Lisa Nichols  24:01
I love it. I love what you just said that it's just so beautiful. But just for our listeners who have not been to Kentucky, go. And especially go to like the Lexington area, where there's the horse farms and, you know, Calumet farms and beautiful, beautiful green pastures and white picket fences. And yes, I could not agree more. Well, Jae, we need to take a really quick break, and then we'll be right back on the Something Extra Podcast.

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Lisa Nichols  25:01
Welcome back, everyone to the Something Extra Podcast with my friend Jae Chung. We've been just having a wonderful discussion here, but Jae, I would love for you to tell our listeners a little bit what precipitated that move? Because you did move here in 2019 what precipitated the move from New York to St Louis in 2019?

Jae Chung  25:21
A lot happened, but the heart of the matter is that I lost kind of sight of what's truly important, vital to me. It's surprising, right? Because I was serving church, you know, I was in the looks of it. I was playing a part, you know, preaching, constantly doing Bible studies, helping people out. I mean helping to build nonprofits. I mean, what's wrong with that? Well, what's wrong with it is that I lost the sight of my family. I lost sight of actually talking to God and reading His word when I'm not required to, to prepare for a preaching, for example, so everything became more of a thoughtless habit and not an intentional, thoughtful endeavor. And I think when Jesus says, you know, God says, Love Your love the Lord with all your heart and might and soul, that's not what he meant, you know, not just doing the right things so that you can post it on somewhere. But are you really pursuing me? And I didn't. The burnout actually just devastated my family, and I could not, I just felt so distant from God, and so to my friends, I said, I need to get back to God. I need to become Christian. I need to I just want to be a child of God. 

Jae Chung  26:49
So, and the times I spent praying in the basement of that house that I was renting in Kentucky, those were precious moments, I would wake up in the early morning hours and I would just cry out to God. And there was the house that I was renting. The owner was Christian, and he had a little cross in the basement. And next to it was a drawing of, I don't know if you ever seen this drawing of Jesus laughing, and it was framed and set right there. At first, because I was in so much pain and agony, you know, what was me, right? So, I was looking at that and go, What are you laughing about Jesus? I'm in so much paid. I thought I was doing all the right thing, but my life is all mess, and I'm lost, you know, and, and days turn to weeks, and then that picture, same picture, meant something very differently for me. It was as if God was telling me, Jae, you're fine. Nothing you've done for me impresses me, nothing you will ever do is gonna shock me, you know, or disappoint me, you are completely loved, just as you are. So come, you know. And so, we're fine. We're fine. And so that's, I think that's what saved me, you know, just crying out to God in that basement. 

Lisa Nichols  28:17
Talk about that a little bit more Jae, because there may be people that are listening, that are burned out, they don't recognize it, or they sometimes even admitting it to yourself, right? Can be hard, because you just keep going. Keep going every day. You know, just keep doing and pushing and pushing. What would you say to that person that kind of has some angst in their spirit and just know that there's something not right? What would you say to them? 

Jae Chung  28:55 
If that person was sitting right in front of me, I would say, Hey, brother, Hi, sister. I I've been there where fear, shame and guilt is literally eating my soul into pieces, ripping it apart. But will you surrender that fear, shame and guilt to God who loves you completely, only when you invite this God into your heart completely, will you be able to overcome those fear, shame and guilt that will constantly drive you to destruction, really. You know, enemy comes to destroy us, right? And he's not dumb, and so he's going to use all kinds of tactics. Oh, look at you. you call yourself pastor, you call yourself this, and that you're no good, you're already tainted. You're never going to be loved by God. So as long as we live, we buy into that lie. We're never going to get up. You know, woe is was me is going to be basically the last verse you're going to sing. But that's not what Christ did for us on the cross, and He defeated that. 

Jae Chung  30:06
And so, I would say it's normal. It's, it's human to feel defeated by fear, shame and guilt, but is also God's will for you to hold on to the hand of God that'll rescue you from that lie and restore you to be the child of God that is forever loved without any condition, completely loved, and your value is in the eyes of God estimated by God. So, so that's what happened for three, four months I've been I would pray and God would remind me again. And know this, sometimes it takes more than one reminder, you know, to really convince your heart. It's repeated bombardment of God's love in my heart that changed me. It wasn't my willpower. I don't think it was even me trying to be smart about it. There's no, There's no analysis that's going to get you out of that slump, that place of darkness, only God's light, only God's hand, mercy, grace is going to save you so cry out to that it may take time.

Lisa Nichols  31:26
I almost feel like because there are so many voices in our world and there's so much noise, Jae. I mean, I feel like that is why every day we have to spend that time in communion so we can be reminded of who we are in Him. And something else that you said, that I think, and myself included, we can fall into this trap of thinking, I do more for you. God, I'll do more for you. And, and like you said before, I mean, there's nothing we can do or not do, right? I mean, it's really, he just wants to, to have this relationship with us really. I mean, our the doing comes out of the relationship, really, because then we want to serve right, because of this relationship and this love relationship that we have with him. So that is so beautiful. Well, I want to ask you about this. You're the managing partner of Bespoke Compass. Tell us about this business. You're an executive coach. Where did the name come from? First of all, I'm sure there's a something, a story behind the name. 

Jae Chung  32:38
Well, I've always asked, what is a good life, you know, how do we navigate this complex thing called life on this side of heaven. And, and compass usually, is a tool that, you know, ageless tool that we use to, kind of, you know, see the direction a little bit, you know, orient ourselves to the true north, right? And then bespoke, because it's custom made. You know, I believe that what works for Person A may not work for Person B. We try to kind of standardize everything, right? This is the standard, you know, to which you should arrive. But God never really treats us that way. He's like a bespoke tailor that says, Let me measure you. Let me see your limitation, which can be leveraged, too. And so, I feel like God is a bespoke tailor in our lives, giving us a bespoke compass just for us. So that's, that's kind of the desire and the idea behind that name.

Lisa Nichols  33:34
I know you've been through so much, and I know your passion is to help other people live a fulfilled life, you know? And so, I really do love that. I've got so many other questions, but I know we're kind of running out of time. Let me ask you this question, because this might help our listeners too, and then we're going to talk a lot about something extra. But Jae, how do you personally, how do you personally learn? And are there any good podcasts besides Something Extra that you listen to, or any good books that you would recommend to our listeners? I mean, are there, you know, besides, I think I was reading last night. I think there have been 5 billion copies of the Bible. So, besides the Bible being best book ever read, right? I mean, are there some things that you would recommend to our listeners that might help them on their journey? 

Jae Chung  34:40
Right. How about this? Rather than talking about a particular book, because I'm, I'm a little bit of an anomaly in that. I believe that classics matter, even though it's outdated, people might say. Because it's doesn't make it to it's not, it's not good enough for Instagram or some real. Right? It's not attractive, it's not TikTok material, and it's hard to read. The attention span has dwindled down to about eight seconds now, and so for anybody to say, let's read a novel together. What a weird idea, right? Why would I waste four hours sitting in one place reading something that somebody has written so counter intuitively, the day of AI, I would say, I love reading novels. I love reading very thoughtful books that's been written in 100 years ago, 50 years ago, and so forth, and so that's the kind of a oddball that I am. 

Jae Chung  35:36
In fact, if you ask my kids, three kids, they will tell you how much I value actually reading their textbooks. You know, I'm still reading I don't know magazines about latest discovery in biochemistry. You know, I've done that last week, so it's kind of weird, but I would say read widely and read, read deeply, instead of just the sound bite. In the days of AI and lack of attention span, I would ask, you know, anyone who wants to, to, to experience life in a deeper and richer way, to do the hard work of getting a book that's pretty thick and sitting there read for an hour. I mean, I cannot believe that's a challenge, but it is a thing. I've met people that say I've never read a book, a single book, front to front to back, you know. And if it's not like a practical book, people don't read it.

Lisa Nichols  36:38
We've got to grow, though, as leaders, you know, we've got to grow. We've got to grow for the people that we lead, right? Whether it's listening. I mean, a lot of people enjoy listening, but we've got to continually be trying to see how we can grow. I mean, like I said, the Bible is the most important book. I believe that one person could ever read, and you need to spend a lot of time there. So, but we also learn from each other, don't we, Jae? I mean, I feel like and that's for me, that is what I've loved so much about the Something Extra Podcast is I have my whole career. I've enjoyed just sitting down with people and hearing their stories and learning from people. And so now with the podcast, the way that I look at that is like I'm sitting down with you and you're sharing amazing stories and perspectives and lessons that you've learned along the way, and now we're going to be able to share it with others when this gets published. 

Lisa Nichols  37:46
So, I think that that's more important, whether it's reading or whatever you just see what you can do. I don't know if you know the name Zig Ziglar, but Tom Zigler was on the podcast probably a year ago, and he said something that I loved. At the end, he said, just every day he took something extra. He took the term something goes. He goes every day try to learn a little something extra, and it's an incremental change, right? And, and so I just, I told you is I've said, now I'm stealing that. And he said, It's okay, go ahead and steal it. But do you have, let me ask you this, and then we're going to talk about something extra. Do you have a morning routine, Jae? What's your morning routine look like? 

Jae Chung  38:34
My morning routine is almost similar every day. So hence routine. I get up and I spend some time just moving my body in my bed, and in prayer, I go, thanks for this body, this breath. So, I kind of wake up my body very slowly, and I feel like I'm honoring God by recognizing that I'm given this chance to live with in this body. And so, I don't pop out of bed, and I slowly get out of bed, and I let my whole-body kind of wake up little by little. And then I usually sit there, and there's a desk in my bedroom where I sit and read a little scripture of Bible. I just want to let my brain and my body just read from God's Word and let it sit there and let it filter the rest of the day. And so, I have an app too, but I kind of like opening up my Bible, so I do that. It's always sitting there anyway. It's very convenient. It's faster than turning on the phone. 

Jae Chung  39:42
The other reason is, I don't want to look at the phone for the first hour for as much as possible, and so I might glance at it to see if there is any emergency phone call or something from my mom or dad. I mean, I don't want to miss that, but I don't actually open it and check anything or see anything or listen to anything. Even podcast, no matter how good it is. I don't listen to that first, and then I go grab cup of coffee and spend try to spend morning routine with my kids, you know, because they're sitting, going home and, you know, going to school, I mean, from home and, and so on. So, spend time with my wife. Just check in. Hello, Hi, good morning. And so set the tone for my household. This is what I try to say. So, I wake up my body, spend some time with the Lord in prayer and Bible, very short, probably five minutes, and then I go to hit my restroom real quick, and then, and then I go downstairs and just spend time with my family, my family, turning on the music and so on. That's my morning routine.

Lisa Nichols  40:45
I love it. I love it. Well, let's talk about something extra. So, Jae, what do you believe is something extra that every leader needs? And I think you have two different perspectives, and I'd love for you to tell me what that something extra is, and then, and, and then dig into that a little bit deeper, if you don't mind.

Jae Chung  41:04
I have a couple for you it's related. One is seek the heart of the matter. Once in a while, pause and just seek the heart of the matter. What that means is, there's always a why behind every what, I feel. So, remember what I said about ask, discover, relate. Do that with issues like, how does a house, everybody can own a house if they really were lucky enough to earn a some money and buy it. But not every house can just become a home. It takes intentional, thoughtful engagement, like prayer and values. Conversations, open, honest, loving gaze, though, that's what makes home, right? Memories make home. Same thing with knowledge. What's the heart of the matter? Knowledge is it just information? No, it's, it's more than that, if you really think about it, true knowledge is understanding, which is very transferable knowledge, so that you can take that and contextualize in different endeavors. So, when I got into habit of seeking the heart of the matter in different issues, I was able to not just be obedient because I have to, but I became someone who was keen about integrity, like obeying God even when nobody's looking at me, right? Exercise can be simple routines of sets and reps, or it could be pursuit of wholeness, true health, holistic. Look at your body. How you wake up your body. So, get in the habit of seeking the heart of the matter. So, you can take good to better and better to best. You know, look at the spirit of the law instead of the just the letter of the law, I guess, I suppose. 

Jae Chung  42:42
The other side that you can do with humans or relationship is see beyond the surface, because there's always much more than meets the eye. How many times have you been misunderstood because they didn't take the time to hear the whole story? Well, we can be doing the same thing to others when we just look at the surface. So do a deeper dive into like iceberg, because every human is an iceberg. There's so, everyone is fighting a battle that we have no idea about. So be open, patient and gracious. Not every encounter you can't, you're human, but if you're a leader, pause and intentionally try to see beyond the surface. One great exercise I did this past Christmas, or this season is that we, we usually do as a family, like a puzzle. And this time it was a Times Square, like area of people skating, ice skating, right in New York, there are like 100 people ice skating. And we did this puzzle piece. And at the end, my son kind of said, I wonder what this how this person got here, one of the little, little, little persons skating there. And then we all start to talk about, oh, why don't we do this? Let's tell a story. Let's create a story. The back story behind, why this couple's smiling here, why that person's performing music there. Well, anyways, everybody has a backstory, right? If we take the time to see beyond the surface, then I think the world becomes a better place.

Lisa Nichols  44:18
That's so good. I love it. Well, Jae, this has been so much fun. I appreciate you so much. I appreciate you sharing your wisdom. I know that it's going to help our listeners, and I just appreciate who you are. So, thank you for being my friend.

Jae Chung  44:35
Thank you. Thank you for being in my life. 

Announcer  44:38
Thank you for listening to today's show something extra with Lisa Nichols as a Technology Partners Production Copyright Technology Partners Inc. 2019. For show notes, or to reach Lisa, visit tpi.co/podcast. Don't forget to leave a review on Apple Podcast, Google Play or wherever you listen. 

*Please note, the preceding transcription has been automatically generated and should be used for informational purposes only.