Inspiring Innovation for a Sustainable Future w/ Amanda McClerren

Fresh off being named the Global Recipient of the 2024 St. Louis CIO ORBIE Award, Amanda McClerren joins the podcast to share her insights on leading digital transformation at Bayer Crop Science. As CIO, Amanda drives innovation that empowers farmers and supports Bayer’s mission of "health for all, hunger for none." In this episode, she reflects on her journey, from pioneering digital platforms to building sustainable solutions and her passion for leadership and community impact. Tune in to hear from a visionary leader shaping a better future.

Guest Links:

• Amanda’s LinkedIn
• Bayer

Credits: 
Host: Lisa Nichols
Executive Producer: Jenny Heal
Marketing Support: Landon Burke and Joe Szynkowski
Podcast Engineer: Portside Media

Transcript

Lisa Nichols  00:03
Chromosomes, little strands of nucleic acids and proteins are the fundamental genetic instructions that tell us who we are. At birth, most people are born with 46 chromosomes, but each year in the United States, about 6000 people are born with an extra chromosome, making them a person with Down syndrome. If you've ever encountered someone with Down syndrome, you know that they are some of the kindest, most joyful people you will ever meet. They truly have something extra. 

My name is Lisa Nichols, and I have spent the last 24 years as both the CEO of Technology Partners and as the mother to Ally. Ally has something extra in every sense of the word. I have been blessed to be by her side as she impacts everyone she meets. Through these two important roles as CEO and mother to Ally, I have witnessed countless life lessons that have fundamentally changed the way I look at the world. While you may not have an extra chromosome, every leader has something extra that defines who you are.  

Join me as I explore the something extra in leaders from all walks of life and discover how that difference in each of them has made a difference in their companies, their families, their communities and in themselves. If you liked this episode today, please go to Apple Podcast or wherever you listen and leave us a five-star rating. 

I'm excited to have Amanda McClerren on the show today. Amanda is the CIO and head of digital transformation at Bayer Crop Science. Well, Amanda, welcome to the Something Extra Podcast. I've been looking so forward to this time with you, and I know what a crazy woman you are right now. Leading this, you know, huge organization, and so I just appreciate you so much making the time to be on the show.
 
Amanda McClerren  02:00
Well, I appreciate the opportunity and the flexibility as we work to find a schedule that worked.

Lisa Nichols  02:06
Absolutely. Well, and I'm just going to start out by saying this. I know I've told you this offline, but can we just say, oh my goodness, congratulations, Amanda, last week you were awarded the global enterprise ORBIE Award, which is a very prestigious award. Congratulations! 

Amanda McClerren  02:29
Thank you. It still feels a little unbelievable. I certainly wasn't expecting it, and like I told the audience in my remarks in the ceremony, I feel a little bit like an imposter. I haven't been in my role all that long, and, you know, I don't feel like I've done anything to deserve it yet, but I think it's really a reflection of the great work that the team has done over the years, and certainly the impact that we're having on agriculture.

Lisa Nichols  02:57
And can I just say that really moved me, your acceptance speech, Amanda, because you totally deflected it away from yourself and onto the team. And I just think that that is such a beautiful quality of a really outstanding leader.  

Amanda McClerren  03:14
You're going to make me blush, and, of course, nobody can see me, but I, I appreciate the feedback. That's genuinely how I feel. I think it's a really great team. I think we work in a hard industry, agriculture. I think it's hard, you know, the hard problems that we're trying to help solve for our farmer customers, and as I told the team in a town hall earlier this week, the only people who have it harder than us right now are farmers. It's a, it's a difficult cycle for agriculture right now, and the work the team does really does make a difference.

Lisa Nichols  03:48
And we're going to dig into that. There's so much there to talk about. But you are the CIO and head of digital transformation for Bayer. You know, I know that this last year has been a whirlwind for you, and we're going to dig into that. But I know that you grew up on a farm, I believe, and that really, you say that really inspired your passion for science. In fact, you say great science is really what motivates you. And, of course, working with smart, passionate people also, but tell us more about growing up on a farm. What were, what were some of your jobs on the farm? Did you guys, were you guys an ag, or did you did you have cows? Or, you know, what did you guys do?

Amanda McClerren  04:30
My dad is primarily a grain farmer, so corn, soybeans and winter wheat. And periodically over the course of my upbringing, we had cattle and we had, we had pigs. My dad likes to say that he, he was in the business only to get out of the business and then have it go up and make money. So, he did a service to, to the livestock industry, because every time he got out, it made money across the industry. So, I did, I did a lot of child care taking. I'm about 10 and a half years older than my youngest brother. I did a lot of lawn mowing. I did a lot of food preparation and a lot of canning, like my grandparents had a giant vegetable garden and we did a lot in the summertime relative to food, right? Putting up food for the winter. And in fact, this summer, I have a very tiny garden in my suburban home here, and I grew a lot of peppers, so I made pepper jelly, and it's, I realized it's the first time I've ever canned without my grandma. So it was, it was a really, it was a really interesting experience. It's sort of nostalgic.

Lisa Nichols  05:44
That is so cool. Well, we've not talked about that, but we have 18 raised beds because I my dad was not a farmer, but we had land, and so he always had this huge garden. And so probably maybe seven years ago, we put in 18 raised beds, and we do a lot of peppers and different kinds of lettuce. And we even grew some corn this year, which was crazy.

Amanda McClerren  06:10
Fresh, sweet corn is definitely delicious. I, I don't have enough room for that, and I have a lot of trouble with squirrels when it comes to my tomatoes. So, I'm like the pepper queen, I can do onions, peppers, lettuce, herbs, you know, but I'm I, what I really need is a as a tomato provider. So maybe that can, that could be you, Lisa.

Lisa Nichols  06:32
Well, yes, this year, our tomatoes did not do as well, but we've had bumper crops in the past, but I can't agree with you more. There's just something so special about it, because my mom did the same thing, you know, put up and, you know, froze things and canned things. And I'm telling you, there's just nothing like fresh vegetables from a garden. It's there's a big difference. You know, there's really a big difference. So, I figured that you had some jobs, though.

Amanda McClerren  07:01
For sure, kind of a little bit of everything, kind of.

Lisa Nichols  07:04
But you learn some things, right? Amanda, about hard work and a hard work ethic that carry on to this day.

Amanda McClerren  07:13
Absolutely I learned, I mean, in my family's work certainly came first, right? You didn't have hobbies, or you didn't do fun stuff until you had taken care of your responsibilities. So, I like to joke that I have an over developed sense of responsibility, and I think that I do. But I also really learned the importance of education. I was the first person in my family to go to college, and that's largely because my dad and my grandpa valued it so much they didn't have the opportunity, and they thought it was really, really important that that I do that, and because I'm a little bit of an overachiever, I not only went to college, I went to grad school and got a PhD, and kind of, kind of went a little bit overboard, but definitely let it, let you know, lived up to their expectations around education.

Lisa Nichols  08:04
Well, I think it served you well. You have a PhD in biochemistry from Duke. Did you know, though you I think I don't know if you worked for someone else, but you've worked at Monsanto/Bayer for a very long time. Did you have this idea when you went into biochemistry Amanda, that that was something you wanted to do. How did that first job with Monsanto come about? 

Amanda McClerren  08:28
Not at all. In fact, I went into a field that probably more predominantly leads to roles in pharma, in the pharma industry, so I really thought that that's what I would do. I did my graduate and my post graduate research on antibiotics and kind of antibiotic targets. And at the time that I started to look for jobs, pharma just wasn't hiring people with, with my background. They were looking for people with very specific disease experience. And to my surprise, you know, at the time, Monsanto was hiring a role for the title was biochemist/enzymologist, and that was literally what I was like. It's exactly what my training was. I never worked with plants. I didn't really want to come back to the Midwest. I didn't really think that I would work in agriculture. And of course, I started at Monsanto and I've spent my whole career at Monsanto and now, Bayer. So, I spent my whole career in agriculture.

Lisa Nichols  09:28
Such a, such an iconic brand, you know, I mean Monsanto and now, Bayer. That's funny though, you know how many I'd love to do a study sometime, Amanda about how many young people really know what they want to do or how they've pivoted in their career, I would imagine that that statistic is very high.

Amanda McClerren  09:51
My family likes to joke that I declared I was going to go to the University of Illinois in sixth grade, and like, by eighth grade, I said I wanted to be a genetic engineer, and biochemist is pretty close to that, especially working for the company that I work for, which sort of invented the biotech industry in plants. So, kind of full circle there, a little bit.

Lisa Nichols  10:14
Love it. Well, so tell me more about an enzymologist, because our because our listeners, and I didn't even know myself until I heard you talk about it one time. What that was, what is that? 

Amanda McClerren  10:30
That's true. I have Jim to thank for being on a leadership panel and getting, getting that surprise question in a in a room full of IT professionals. Enzymes are proteins in biological systems. So, our bodies, for example, and those enzymes perform really important chemical reactions. They help take, you know, starting materials and convert them to something else that our bodies need to run efficiently. And so, enzymology is the study of those proteins, those enzymes that perform what we call catalysis, right? They catalyze reactions. And sometimes, if left, if left, without an enzyme, those chemical reactions would take hundreds or even 1000s of years to happen naturally. So, enzymes are really pretty amazing in in terms of what they can kind of come in and do and make, make happen in a matter of seconds, or sub seconds.

Lisa Nichols  11:23
That is fascinating. I can see why you're, you're fascinated by that. That is fascinating. Makes me want to go and study that a little bit more. You know, I think since you've been at Monsanto you I counted up you've had at least six different scientific roles. In fact, yeah, I think you did a lot in R&D, but today you're the CIO, and you've been in that role for about a year. So, what, really, you know, what would you say inspired you to go from biochemistry to the CIO at Bayer? I mean, how did that transformation happen? 

Amanda McClerren  11:57
Well, that first role that I talked about was probably it was not only my first role at the company, it was also the last role at the company that I ever did where I was the expert of something. So, after that first role, which I was in for, I don't know, a little over a year, I had the opportunity to do lots of different things that I never thought I would do, that weren't really in my technical wheelhouse or that connected to my technical background. And the more you do that, the more you kind of learn how to do that, to be agile and to take risks, and kind of focus on building your soft skills and your leadership qualities and how to work with other people and engage other experts to solve problems, the more opportunities that opens up. And so increasingly, I worked on things that required digital technology to be successful, in the R&D pipeline, and got to know colleagues in IT, and got to know the technology just a little bit and, you know, as time moved on, I worked closer and closer with them. You know, I had roles of bigger responsibility, and that meant I got to partner with it on bigger projects with bigger impact. And at some point, I thought, hey, you know, I kind of like this, and I think it might be nice to think about doing a role in IT. It's technical, that technical piece, that innovation piece, matters to me. And so, I had the opportunity to move into IT, doing the R&D IT role so still close to kind of my background and how I grew up. And then, over time, learned a lot more about IT. I certainly didn't know nearly as much as I would have thought, and, you know, made it to this role in about the last year or so.

Lisa Nichols  13:46
Right, right, right. So, let's talk about that. I wasn't planning on talking about this, but you just kind of sparked something in my, my brain when you're talking about that. So, you started this by going, Oh, I kind of felt like a little bit of an imposter, because I've only been in this role for a year, you know, I mean, for you to move into all these roles, Amanda that you really knew nothing about, I mean, that takes, there's traits there. It takes some confidence, it takes a lot of courage. It takes this belief in yourself that you had the agility and the acumen to learn new things. What would you what would you say to and it could be men or women that that really think, oh, you know, that looks really interesting over there, but I don't really have the skills and so, I mean, what would you say to them? I mean, you know, is there some advice that you would give them? And just going, you know, I don't know. I don't know. I don't want to put words in your mouth, but I'm just thinking, just go for it. What's the worst that can happen? 

Amanda McClerren  14:44
I got some advice a few years ago from a mentor that said, Never, never, say never, about a role, and I that was dead on, because if you had asked me five years ago or 10 years ago or 15 years ago, what's a role, you just really wouldn't do in the company, I could probably name five roles that I've done since then, right? And so, for me, it's kind of about, certainly, about believing in yourself and self-confidence, but that comes also from having great people around you and knowing that you can leverage them and that there's plenty of people that will help you. There's lots of experts. You don't have to be the expert in everything. You kind of need to know what your value proposition is, and what can you bring to the table? What can you learn from this opportunity? And maybe, you know, help, you help the org get better, and they help you get better. So that that's kind of how I thought about it when I thought about moving around the organization, you know, try and take stock, send me regularly on, okay, like, what am I good at? Or, you know, what am I still working on? What are the what are the opportunities in front of me that would help me get better at what I need to work on, but maybe also I could bring something to the table.
 
Lisa Nichols  15:59
That's good. It's a mutual relationship. The value goes both ways, right? There's so much. There's so much there really. I was just talking to my grandson yesterday. I mean, clearly, Amanda, you know, no telling what your IQ is. You're clearly incredibly smart, but you had said something also about learning how to get along with people and how to influence people, and how to lead teams and how to, you know, drive more value through the organization, through people, right? How important have you found that emotional intelligence piece to be in your ascent through the organization?

Amanda McClerren  16:39
I actually sometimes think it's the most important piece. I'm never the smartest person in the room there. I'm surrounded by really smart people, PhDs and engineers, and I never worry about being the smartest person. I am reasonably emotionally equipped, right? And that has come that's come in handy so often, to be able to show up authentically with people, to be able to be open and warm and connect really kind of try and understand where other people are coming from. Create a space where people can be themselves and let their guards down, and you can really kind of lean into what the problem is and get after the problem, because there's a degree of kind of trust and collaboration in a working relationship. I think that's been super important. 

Amanda McClerren  17:31
And over the course of my career, I've worked, obviously with a lot of other cultures outside of the US, been in more global roles. And you know, you learn all those things all over again when you're working in a different part of the globe, because cultures are different. You're wired differently, around certain types of themes and I think it's been super interesting to learn how people react differently and think differently because of the surroundings in which they were raised, and to figure out how you adapt. You know, how do you create become more flexible and how do you create teams that are really diverse in that in that sense, because all those different cultural backgrounds can really lend themselves to problems in different and unique ways. And I think you can get much more creative on problem solving, if you figure out how to really hear everybody on the team and leverage what they're good at.

Lisa Nichols  18:26
I love that. I mean, I'm just thinking, Covey, seek to understand rather than just jumping to conclusions. And, man, there's so much, there's so much good stuff there. Well, how do you think, you know, your scientific background has really shaped your leadership? What is your leadership style? By the way, what would you say your leadership style is, and has it changed, Amanda, has it evolved over the years?

Amanda McClerren  18:54
I hope so. I'm sure I did all kinds of things that were pretty dumb early in my early days, and probably still plenty that I have done things that I've done this week. But I think I have a pretty direct style, and I'm pretty action oriented, and if I look back over the years, I needed to probably talk less and listen more, ask more questions, share what I was thinking out loud, a little bit more. You know, sort of that that bias towards action is okay, right? I mean, it can be a strength, but you kind of need to bring others along and let them know what you're thinking and where you're trying to go. And I think I've, I've hopefully gotten better at those things over the years, and I think maybe the things that I've learned and tried to compliment that with is really, really getting comfortable not knowing the answer, and leveraging the folks around me, and being able to be authentic and vulnerable in a way about that at. That's been really useful. I know in the beginning, early days of being a leader, I felt a pressure that I needed to have all the answers. And boy, when you can let that go, like I don't need to know everything, and I'm not the smartest person in the room, you can, you can get a lot more done. 

Lisa Nichols  20:17
There's freedom. There's so much freedom, right? Well, I tell you, I cannot even tell you how many people I think you're what you just described. Amanda, I've heard so many people describe that, like, early on, you're like, oh, you know what If they figure out that I don't know all the answers? And it's okay to not know all the answers, but picking the right team, picking the right people to surround yourself with, is critical. It's a critical leadership skill. 

Amanda McClerren  20:48
I 100% agree that is, anytime I go into a new role, that's the first thing I do, right learn the team. Do I have the right team? It's, it's the number one thing. 

Lisa Nichols  21:01
No, I agree. I agree. So let me tell you. Wait, what you've been in the role for about a year. What is this last year been like for you? I mean, what had been some of the okay, you're going to end your brand-new role, what are some of the things that that at the beginning of that role, you said, I, I want to set out and accomplish, or, you know, what are some of those initiatives? And I think probably a lot of it is the listening tour in the beginning, just figuring out what you got right.

Amanda McClerren  21:29
Certainly, certainly. I mean, it's been a, it's been a little bit of a wild year, both because of the context of what's been happening at our company, we've been doing, you know. Some ways it's a restructuring, but in other ways, it's a whole new, new operating model around this dynamic, shared ownership method and a lot of what has come through that, or from that is, is needing to kind of redesign our organization and how we're set up, and removing layers of leadership and empowering teams to work together differently. And it's, you know, interesting, challenging to be brand new to a role and also kind of be tasked with changing the fundamental setup of the organization and why you're going to work before you really know very much about what you don't know about. I think the other parts of the role that are new to me are the parts that focus so much more on our product supply and our commercial business. 

Amanda McClerren  22:27
You know, I come from R&D that enabled me, I think, to learn some of the more deeply technical elements of what we do in crop science, it but the business aspect of product supply and commercial I have just simply been less exposed to over the course of my career. So, you know, sitting at the crop science executive team and spending a lot of time on financials and the P&L and how the business is performing. You know, I've got a finance coach. I need a finance coach to help me, you know, kind of understand that financial data, to the degree, to the depth that I that I need to. So that that's been a ton of my focus, right? Like, so how do, how do I help the org activate this new model, again, kind of building a new team for me in this, in this regard, and at the same time learning all these parts of our business that that I wasn't as exposed to before. 

Lisa Nichols  23:19
It's a lot. Let's just say it's a lot. So, for our listeners out there, they may not really understand this dynamic, shared ownership type philosophy. I think it, correct me if I'm wrong, but there's a book out there called humanocracy that a lot of you have read, or at least executives at Bayer have read, tell us, if you would Amanda, just so that our listeners can understand. Well, what does that mean? A dynamic, shared ownership model.

Amanda McClerren  23:49
I'll tell you as well as I understand it still pretty, pretty early into the model. The concept is around, how do you really unlock the potential of your people, and you empower people to drive to drive your business differently. The premise is kind of that, you know, as companies get really big, you know, as corporations get really big, they become bloated and they become filled with bureaucracy. And of course, Bayer's a very old company over 150 years with three separate distinct divisions or businesses, and you can imagine how that happens. I think that there's truth to that. And so, the question is, what do you do about it? And a typical restructuring, you know, is top-down leaders go remove a bunch of roles and the organization, and all the leadership roles are preserved. So, it's almost like you double down on the problem. And this approach, you say, Well, how do I kind of push decision making down into the organization and increase sort of spans of leadership? Have fewer leaders and have more empowered teams. 

Amanda McClerren  25:01
And I think we're still learning how to do that, because with that is going to come behavioral shifts, you know, people are going to have to, you know, to kind of show up differently to the problem and be more comfortable with autonomy and risk taking and kind of decision. Decision rights and ownership, and there also comes a need, I think, for really radical transparency, because if you're going to enable the organization to operate that way, they have to have information, they have to have data, they have to have insights, they have to have context to make the right decisions. Most people aren't trying to do the wrong thing that you know you do the wrong thing because you didn't know what you didn't know. So, I think that's the other piece that we're still working, we’ll all of the pieces we're still working through. Certainly, but I think digital can play a big role in the latter problem, especially, you know, as we as we digitize more processes, we leverage data and analytics differently. That should that should enable DSO at the end of the day. 

Lisa Nichols  26:03
Thank you for that. You did a very good job explaining that. Thank you. Well, let me okay, so I'm going to ask you one more question, and we're going to take a quick break. Okay, so how have you personally, or, you know, I know you're still in the mix of it, but aligning it and the digital transformation efforts with Bayer's mission. And the mission is Health for All, Hunger for None. Is that still the mission? 

Amanda McClerren  26:33
That's still the mission that's still the question is, how do we align the digital transformation efforts with that?

Lisa Nichols  26:38
Right. With that mission? 


Amanda McClerren  26:42
You know, I won't. I won't pretend that, that it's like, all about some that it's super clear there's some big, grandiose kind of thread that connects it all. I think the key is to really connect into the business and to connect to our customers, so we are intentional about ensuring that there's not an us versus them mentality, right, that our digital talent is directly embedded in our business teams. And when you do that, I think you get much closer to the problem and you get much more creative about the solution. And so, we try and focus on outcomes first, really framing anything we're going to do in terms of a business outcome, whether it be more commercially focused, or product supply or R&D, because the piece that does connect is that we're designing products in R&D, we're creating them in product supply, in the most agile, cost-effective way possible. And then we're delivering them to customers, so in a way that that creates a really differentiating positive experience about how they how they interact and engage with our company. And those products, we believe, are, you know, the best performing products in the industry. So that's kind of the icing on the cake. And so, so we've just, we've got to be really closely connected with that business outcome in order to do that. 

Lisa Nichols  28:03
I have a lot more questions, because you guys are doing some amazing things. Your customer is the farmer. 

Amanda McClerren  28:09
That's right. 

Lisa Nichols  28:10
Get it very clear that the customer is the farmer. So, you're doing a lot of things to enable them to do their business better. So, we do need to take a quick break, and we'll be right back with Amanda McLaren on the Something Extra Podcast.

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Lisa Nichols  28:54
Welcome back everyone to the Something Extra Podcast with Amanda McClerren. So, Amanda, this has been really interesting. We just ended our first segment by saying, the customer for Bayer Crop Science is the farmer. So, talk to me a little bit about how AI is really transforming and informing agriculture, and then maybe I think you piloted your expert Gen AI system, and you can maybe talk a little bit about that. 

Amanda McClerren  29:22
We, we've been using AI for probably close to a decade now at Bayer. Really heavily utilization in our R&D and our product supply organizations. And I think what's really cool about Gen AI is the accessibility right to problems that are more now in the in the commercial space. So, so you know, on the on the R&D side, we have models developed that help us predict the performance of the products in our pipeline. In our seed pipeline, by putting together the genetic information and the field-testing phenotype information over many, many, many years of testing, right? Many generations of material, many years of performance in the field, and now we have an algorithm that can predict the performance in the field based on that genetic information in the lab, which is, is really cool. We have models that can help us understand harvestability of the crop, so we can ensure that we're harvesting that crop in at the right time in the most efficient way possible in our product supply organization, such that we develop the most high-quality seed material possible to then package and go to our farmers and as products in the field. 

Amanda McClerren  30:35
On the Gen AI side, you know, kind of now thinking about commercial and the direct farmer customer, one of the things that really matters as a farmer is not just buying the right products, but it's knowing how to manage your crop in the field over the course of a growing season. You have to make many, many decisions and lots of changing circumstances around you, with weather, of course, and pest pressure or disease pressure in the field. And so, what we want to try and ensure is that all farmers, regardless of where they are, have access to the best agronomic information possible to help manage that crop. And so, we've been able to develop something called Eli, which is an advisor, an agronomic advisor, for our farmer customers. Right now, still focused on developing it internally and validating it with our internal experts. But the idea is that we have a lot of information in there about our seed products, our crop protection products, about the threats that that face the crop over the course of the growing season. 

Amanda McClerren  31:43
And if we could harness all that in a really easy way, you know, through generative AI technology, through a chat bot and focus it for agriculture. You know, we've been exploring different ways to maybe train small language models in addition to large language models to see what gives the best right output. But the idea is that we'll be able to answer in seconds questions that may have taken hours to source before, and we'll be able to do that much more broadly across, you know, widespread rule geographies, because we'll have these tools at the fingertips of our agronomic experts who can look up information very quickly, who can help farmers get the right answer to their questions.

Lisa Nichols  32:32
That is so cool. That is so cool. Well, you know, I love all the ways that you're collaborating with the farmers. And you, you say that the farmers are at the center of everything you do, which I love that. You know, let me ask you this in 2023 I know you commissioned a farmer voice survey. It reached out to like, 800 farmers in eight different countries. Can you talk about, you know, some of the results of that? You, I think you asked, what do they need to succeed? What are their biggest challenges? Can you, can you talk about, like, some of those outcomes that came from that survey that you did, Amanda?

Amanda McClerren  33:12
I think, so. I'll preface my answer by saying, this is, this is an area I'm not as deep on, yet. We I think, I think a lot of what we were looking for, what we're always looking for with a farmer survey, is to understand how we can improve the customer experience. And a lot of what we have learned is that farmers do need more access to expert advice and knowledge and information like I just described with our Eli product. And so being able to bring that forward and rapidly accelerate that since, since about the time of the survey, since 2023 has been really important. We also need to create a more kind of seamless digital interaction with farmer customers. We need to make it easier for them to do business with Bayer and to transact with us. And as you can imagine, you know, having being, being the child of two, two separate companies, right that have come together. And even prior to that, the history of acquisition in both in both companies, we have a reasonably convoluted, complicated technology stack under the hood, and so the effort that we're making now is, how do we simplify that and simplify those customer facing systems so that it's much easier to order, to order what you want, when you want it, and then get that insight about how to use it. 

Lisa Nichols  34:43
That user interface, the user experience, is so important, right? Because if it's too difficult, then people won't do it, right? So, one thing I was just talking with someone earlier today. I can't even remember now, I may know who I was talking to, but we were just talking about the rate of change. And technology, you know? And I know that I just read something, I think, who just put this out? Was it IBM that put it out? That, like, the average shelf life or a skill right now is less than three years. I think it's 2.5 years. So that is one thing that we can all count on with technology, is this rate of change, and that it's just getting faster and faster. How do you personally keep up? I mean, are there conferences that you attend? Do you are you always reading? Are you looking at white papers? I mean, you know how just something that, that maybe you are doing that maybe could help our listeners, if they're, if they're wanting to keep up on things a little bit more.

Amanda McClerren  35:45
I certainly read a lot, and I'm sure it's not enough. I have two boys. They are almost 12 and 14, so I have to do my reading in sort of small tidbits, like articles, not books, right? Between soccer practice and basketball practice. One of the things though, that I find really, genuinely the most impactful is talking to the experts. And often those experts are in the organization. There, you know, just maybe, maybe sitting a little bit somewhere else, a little deeper in the organization. So, I try and be intentional about making time to do one on ones and connect with some of our principal engineers and our, you know, our most forward-looking technical leaders. That's super, super valuable. I think the external piece is also important. So, it can be conferences, but it can be partners. You know, we work closely with AWS and with Google, they've obviously got great technology and great expertise, so I think being able to leverage them and ask questions there through either, you know, kind of executive connects or other types of offerings has been, has been really valuable. 

Lisa Nichols  36:57
I agree. The important thing is do something.

Amanda McClerren  37:01
Do something. Do something. Be curious. Do something.

Lisa Nichols  37:05
Be curious. Do something right. Well, let me ask you this, how has the role of mentorship played out in your own journey? I'm sure you've had some amazing mentors. You're free to call out one or two if and what did they teach you? How important is mentorship in a career?

Amanda McClerren  37:24
It's super important. I can look back at almost any big decision I ever made or big risk I ever took, and I can tie it directly back to a conversation that I've had with a mentor I remember debating about whether or not to take a role that was sort of bigger than my current role. You know, it was a promotion, but I just wasn't sure about it, like wasn't sure that it was going to have the impact that I wanted it to have, or that, or honestly, that it was in a in a part of the organization that had the culture that would be a good fit for me. And I remember someone sharing with me, hey, you know, good people have good opportunities. So, if this one doesn't feel right, just wait, something else will come along that that feels right. I thought that that that is one of the most repeated pieces of advice that I've ever used. Tracey Cavato, who left the company a few years ago, she was my formal mentor, and my, in my first mentor program, mentorship program that I was ever part of. She was my boss at one point later in my career, and she also became my friend, and, you know, so many good tidbits from her, like, you know, trust the team, like, bring them in early and often to discussions and leverage them for input. If the role that you're looking at taking doesn't scare you, then it's not the right role. You know, all good things. So I'm, I'm so thankful for my mentors. They get invaluable.

Lisa Nichols  38:56
Oh, I couldn't agree more. I'm so I'm so grateful too. And I've, I'm like, You I can quote, I can quote different mentors along the way. I'll never forget one of my mentors, one time, was saying that she was like, you know, I want to be a better business woman. I want to be a better mom and she said it was just kind of occurred to her to be a better human and then you'll be a better all of those things, right?

Amanda McClerren  39:20
I know, just a good one, Lisa, I like that. 

Lisa Nichols  39:22
I know. Isn't it good? I know. And I still, I still remember. I still remember it. Well, okay, so I, I'll ask you this, and then, and then I really would love to get into, I've got a little fun lightning for you, and then we're going to get into something extra. But I was just at a women's executives in tech event, probably about a month ago, and the comment was made, Amanda, that women are losing ground. We gained a lot of ground in terms of getting into those top roles for Tech. And the comment was made that they felt like we are losing ground, that we're going a little bit backwards. What do you say about that? And if that is true, what do you believe can be done about it?

Amanda McClerren  40:14
It's funny. I've been reading some things that suggest the same thing, right? That maybe we're going backwards. And some of the interesting hypotheses I've seen out there about this is that this really accelerated during COVID because, you know, obviously we're all stuck at home, and maybe women took on a bigger role with the traditional in the traditional gender department, right around caregiving and keeping the wheels on the bus when kids were having to be homeschooled and all that crazy stuff we did. But I think there's another part to it too, which is that maybe women are starting to realize that this idea of having it all may not be all that it's cracked up to be, right? Like, maybe, maybe we want a little more balance relative to our home life and our professional life, and a little more value and meaning in our lives beyond, beyond just our professional careers. And I'm, you know, I'm getting to be the age now where I'm really starting to reflect on that kind of thing, too. And COVID was a, just a crazy, pivotal time in our lives that really shined a light on that. I think about what's really, really, really important. I think maybe that's led, led to some of this as well. So, I don't know that we're losing ground, or maybe we're becoming more enlightened, maybe we're getting there faster,

Lisa Nichols  41:45
No, that's, that's, that's a good point. That's a good point. And I think it is really important for every person to say what it matters most to me, and putting your efforts there is going to be success for you, and success that you, you know, you think, and I think could be different, right? And it neither one is better than the other. it's not good or bad, right? So, no, that's a good point. I like that perspective. Amanda, I like that a lot. Well, I have just a fun lightning round for you, and I want to spend a little bit time on something extra. Well, what do you do for fun? Go to soccer games?

Amanda McClerren  42:22
For sure, lots and lots and lots of soccer. I like to garden. I am very particular about my pots. I have many, many house plants. I'm the house plant queen. And what else do I like to travel and I like to eat, if I'm honest. 

Lisa Nichols  42:39
Oh, me too. Me too. Now I'm really thinking about that I'm thinking about your pepper jam. That's what I'm thinking about.

Amanda McClerren  42:49
I'll bring you a jar the next time. 

Lisa Nichols  42:51
Oh, would love it. I would absolutely love it. Well, what are you most excited about personally right now? Are you guys getting ready to take any trips or anything that the boys are doing?

Amanda McClerren  43:04
I am honestly, really looking forward to not working for a couple of weeks. I have these cozy socks that I want to put on. I want to, like, kind of sit in front of the fire. I am most looking forward to doing almost nothing. I'm going to go to yoga, just gonna go and have my cozy socks on. I can't tell you how excited I am actually about that.

Lisa Nichols  43:27
Cozy socks. I love it. I love it, all right. Well, let me ask you this, because this is something I ask everybody. What do you believe is something extra every leader needs?

Amanda McClerren  43:40
The thing that's most top of mind for me these days is vulnerability. It's part of authenticity. It's how part of how you show up in an authentic way. But I think it's a little deeper than that. I think it's a little personally riskier than just authenticity that vulnerability, and I think it helps you. Helps you get the help you need when you need it. I think it helps you model that for your organization. I think it removes some of the barriers that sometimes crop up unintentionally when you get to a certain leadership level.  Because, you know, there's some title in front of your name, or, you know, you've been to company so many years, you know, those kinds of things. And so, I think just, you know, it unlocks something for you at work, and I think it unlocks something inside of your person. I think it keeps you maybe a little again, a little more curious, a little more open to exploration, recognizing that you don't know it all, you don't have to know it all, and keeps you a little bit hungry, in terms of like, continuing to search and find and those kinds of things.

Lisa Nichols  44:57
What have you seen like when, have you always been vulnerable? Or is this something? Is this a skill that we can learn, Amanda?

Amanda McClerren  45:07
It's a skill you can learn because I've not always been vulnerable, and I still don't think I'm particularly good at it. I'm a little bit better at the authenticity, like, sort of not, you know, being, being who I am, where I am, using humor to do that. But true vulnerability is really hard, and for me, at least, I think I had to, you know, experience some things in my personal life that were out of my control, that that really helped me feel vulnerable in a uncomfortable way, in a way that I couldn't influence in any way, shape or form. And it's a little bit about the choices you make in those situations. You know, do you lean into it, or do you fight it? And for me, leaning into it taught me a lot about myself, and I hope, really has made me a better leader.  

Lisa Nichols  46:01
Let me ask you this question. So, like, when you have been vulnerable, when you have been what does that do, what kind of energy, what kind of aura does that give with your team? Do you feel like it connects you more to your team when you are vulnerable?

Amanda McClerren  46:19
I think it absolutely connects you more to your team when you're, when you're vulnerable it, it creates a very big sense of we're in this together. You know, there's no hierarchy. It's a more inclusive environment. You know, all ideas welcome here. And I think you'd be surprised sometimes how you see other people step up, you know, independent of what level they're at in the organization, when you can be honest about the fact that you don't have it, all figured out and you need some help.

Lisa Nichols  46:54
Right. And people want to feel needed too, right? So, I don't know. I could not agree with you more. I do think it's one of the, I think it is one of the leadership qualities. But to your point, it's not easy. But here's what I love, what you just said. I think you can practice these things. Amanda, you can practice any of these things and get better at them. Which I which I love, you know? So, hey, this has been so much fun. I mean, all these times that we've been trying to make this work, it's been worth it. Girl, I've so enjoyed this time with you. So, thank you so much for making the time to be on the show. I know that you're gonna help our listeners.

Amanda McClerren  47:40
Well, I appreciate the opportunity again, and like I said, the patience and the grace for all the multiple reschedules, I've had a good time too.

Lisa Nichols  47:48
Absolutely.

Announcer  47:50
Thank you for listening to today's show. Something Extra with Lisa Nichols as a Technology Partners Production Copyright Technology Partners Inc. 2019. For show notes or to reach Lisa, visit tpi.co/podcast. Don't forget to leave a review on Apple Podcasts, Google Play, or wherever you listen. 

*Please note, the preceding transcription has been automatically generated and should be used for informational purposes only.