Building Bridges That Drive Growth w/ Tom Muccio

What happens when collaboration becomes your superpower? Tom Muccio, a seasoned leader with over three decades at Procter & Gamble and the visionary behind Muccio Consulting, joins Lisa to share his insights on leadership, relationship building, and the art of "Collaborative Disruption." From his groundbreaking work with Walmart to advising top executives worldwide, Tom has mastered the ability to unite teams and organizations to achieve exponential growth. Tune in as he discusses his journey, his recently released book, and why creating meaningful partnerships is the ultimate competitive advantage.

Guest Links:

• Tom’s LinkedIn

Credits: 
Host: Lisa Nichols
Executive Producer: Jenny Heal
Marketing Support: Landon Burke and Joe Szynkowski
Podcast Engineer: Portside Media

Transcript

Lisa Nichols  00:02
Chromosomes, little strands of nucleic acids and proteins are the fundamental genetic instructions that tell us who we are. At birth, most people are born with 46 chromosomes, but each year in the United States, about 6000 people are born with an extra chromosome, making them a person with Down syndrome. If you've ever encountered someone with Down syndrome, you know that they are some of the kindest, most joyful people you will ever meet. They truly have something extra.

My name is Lisa Nichols, and for 30 years, I have been both the CEO of Technology Partners and the mother to Ally. Ally has something extra in every sense of the word. I have been blessed to be by her side as she impacts everyone she meets. Through these two important roles as CEO and mother to Ally, I have witnessed countless life lessons that have fundamentally changed the way I look at the world. While you may not have an extra chromosome, every leader has something extra that defines who you are. 

Join me as I explore the something extra in leaders from all walks of life and discover how that difference in each of them has made a difference in their companies, their families, their communities and in themselves. If you like this episode today, please go to Apple Podcast or wherever you listen and leave us a five-star rating. 

I'm thrilled to have Tom Muccio on the show today. Tom is a retired executive from P&G, and is the founder and CEO of Muccio Consulting. Well, Tom Muccio, welcome to the Something Extra Podcast. I am so delighted to be doing this with you today. You and I really had the honor and the pleasure, I think it was about 2013, we went through a three-year program called the Spiritual Leadership Institute, through CEO Forum, and we were in the same cohort for three years. So, that was so, so wonderful. And I know that you would say the same thing.

Tom Muccio  02:03
It was terrific. It was terrific, in my honor to be with you on this, on your podcast. This is a whole new world for me.

Lisa Nichols  02:14
Well, you've got so much to share, and I cannot wait to dig into it. Jim Bechtold said to us recently, Hey, you, you guys should know each other. And I said, I know Tom, we were in the same SLI group together. And he said, well, then you guys should do a something extra podcast together. So, I am really, really excited that he, that he had suggested that we do that. But you know Tom, you are just, you're an amazing human being, and you have so much experience and wisdom that I really know that our listeners are going to benefit from, you know? So, I have, we have a lot to talk about. I have pages and pages of notes, but, you know, I know that you live in Fayetteville, Arkansas, now. But did you grow up in Ohio? I'm kind of curious. 

Tom Muccio  03:01
I was born in western Pennsylvania, a little town called Dubois, Pennsylvania, up in the northwest corner. And then moved to Toledo, Ohio when I was in the seventh grade, and finished high school there. Then went to Ohio University in Athens, Ohio, and then started to work with P&G in Cincinnati, and from there, you know, around the world, and hanging up the last, you know, in '90 we moved down to Northwest Arkansas. I started working with the Walmart project in '87 but we moved down here in '90 and both of our kids married someone from the area, and we got grandkids and great grandkids, and so this is now home. 

Lisa Nichols  03:46
This is home. It's a great place to have as a home. I know Arkansas is beautiful and just good people, right? Well, tell me this now, you know, growing up, what would you like to do as a little boy? You know, what kept you busy during the day? What would you do? Did you start any businesses or anything like that when you were little?

Tom Muccio  04:07
I was working all the time. I would we I grew up in a in a lower middle class family. We didn't have very much money. My grandparents didn't have very much money. They were immigrants from Italy, and so I looked around and said, I don't want to be poor. And so, one of my big motivations was, how do I not be poor? So, I, you know, I did anything. I delivered. I had paper routes from the fourth grade through high school. I pumped gas. I dug ditches. I would spread anybody in the neighborhood had anything they needed done. Grass cut, a load of topsoil put in. I mean, I do anything, babysit at night, but I, you know, because, you know, I had discovered girls in high school, and had, unless I had the money, I was. I was gonna dress like a goober and not be able to do much. 

Lisa Nichols  05:05
I love it well, you know, I'm just thinking as you're talking, you were resourceful for one thing, right, finding all these different kinds of jobs. The other thing, Tom, and I know that you worked so hard when you started, and we'll talk about P&G, but you definitely learned the value of hard work, as a young child, right? You weren't entitled. I mean, you knew you had to put in the effort and the elbow grease, right? 

Tom Muccio  05:31
It did that. But also knew the power of a smile and a kind word. Because, you know, when I was a paper boy, I would, I would sell anything, like Christmas cards, Cloverine brand set. Because these people like me, and I was one of the paper boys that would put the paper between the screen door and not, you know. So, all you had to do was open your door and there was your paper.

Lisa Nichols  05:58
So, you went the extra mile. You just didn't throw it into the yard. 

Tom Muccio  06:04
No, no, no.

Lisa Nichols  06:06
That's awesome. Well, see, I just, I think some of those tenants that you young, that you learned as a young boy, probably carry through. But you did talk about going to Ohio University. I want to talk to you about that offline when we because I know somebody from Athens. You received a Bachelor in government, communication and organizational behavior. I know that you turned down, I think you had an opportunity to go to Harvard, and you turned that down to go to P&G. Did you know about P&G, Proctor and Gamble, when you were a little boy Tom, and was that ever like a dream to work for Procter and Gamble? 

Tom Muccio  06:45
No, I didn't. My father was a sales rep for Del Monte, so I understood the grocery business. And I understood the products of P&G and but I didn't really know anything about the company. And I was on campus, and P&G goes into a campus, and they go, they talk to coaches and teachers and people, and they say, if you were going to start a company, who would you hire out of the senior class? Well, I got this guy called me in the phone. I said, Hey, I'm not really interested. I'm going to Harvard. He said, Well, he said, I got a son about your age. You're always you're always up for a good steak. How about if I take you out for dinner? So, I said, okay, but I'm just want to make you know that I'm not interested. And at the end of dinner, he said, well, make me feel a lot better to write off this dinner. If you'll let me just tell you a little bit about P&G. So, I listened and thanked him. 

Tom Muccio  07:44
And then the next week, he called me on the phone and said, Have you ever been to St Louis? I said, No. He said, Would you like to go to St Louis? I said, What's going on here? He said, we have a what we call a recruiting conference, where we bring people together. They get to meet a lot of the senior management and the division and interact with other people that were recruiting. Would you like to do that? And I said, Well, well, would you think it might help me get a summer job with the company? Because I could use the summer job in Boston. He said, We don't normally do summer jobs, but the people will be there that could make that happen. So, I drove from Athens to Cincinnati. We flew out to St. Louis, had dinner at Tony's on the hill.

Lisa Nichols  08:30
Yes.

Tom Muccio  08:31
That was a that was a big-time event.

Lisa Nichols  08:35
The Hill is awesome. 

Tom Muccio  08:37
And so at the end of the day, he offered me, they offered me a job, and I had to put down, they said, What do you expect to make? And I put a number down, when the only number I knew was what my dad was making. And they offered me the job. And then when I didn't get any aid at, I was getting married right after, right after college. And when I didn't get any aid from Harvard, I did the comparison. I'm going to end up with a whole bunch of debt, or I can get this job that makes one of my dad's making that right already, and I get a company car. So, I convinced myself that that was the right move, and my wife teased me. Would always tease me. She said, You didn't want to go for the education anyhow. You just wanted to go for the name. And I said, Okay, you were right, but you don't have to keep rubbing it in.

Lisa Nichols  09:32
Well, you got a different kind of education with P&G for sure, you know. And I kind of laughed, because that's not always the way it is in today's world, Tom. But you graduated in May of 1970 and you started in June. Greg and I did the same thing. I mean, we graduated in May from Murray State University in Kentucky, and were recruited to McDonnell Douglas. And like the week after graduation, here we are packing up moving to St. Louis. 

Tom Muccio  10:04
Well, another thing you need to know is, you know who my advisor was at Ohio University? Ken Blanchard, it was his first professorship, and we hooked up as I was a freshman, and I just I fell in love with his philosophy and his teaching. And so, I took everything that he would ever, and we just became friends. And then eventually we both found out that we had accepted the Lord, and then I ended up being on his board of directors for, for about eight or nine years. And we still are very good friends. I'm on his Lead Like Jesus board, and was on that as a founding member as well. So, that's because I listened to your interview with Ken, and he's, he's just, he's just so fantastic.

Lisa Nichols  10:56
That, I still, when I think back to that interview. I seriously just still smile about that. He was so inspirational. I think at the time that I did the interview, he was my 200th episode something extra, and we've got 300 and something now. But when I did that interview with him. I think he was maybe 83, possibly 84 he was in the middle of writing a book.

Tom Muccio  11:30
He's always in the middle of writing a book.

Lisa Nichols  11:32
I know, I know. But he said, you know, Lisa, he said, I've seen so many people, and at the age of 40, they kind of just give up and they're like the best years are behind me. He said, I've always thought, no, the best years are ahead of me. I've always thought that. He said, I want to live my life with gusto till the end. I have never forgot that, Tom. It just really, he was inspirational. 

Tom Muccio  11:55
Oh, he is just so much fun to be around. And he just, he can turn a phrase at any point in time that you just you want to take out a notepad and write it down. In fact, in the book, I've got a lot of quotes from him over the years, because he was very instrumental in shaping my leadership philosophy and approach to a lot of things in life.


Lisa Nichols  12:20
Well, there you go. See you read my mind, because later on, I was going to ask you, Tom, is there a person that has really shaped you, a mentor that has shaped you, and what did they teach you? You know, so you're, you're already alluding to that. So, I mean, let me go in and ask you. I mean, it's Ken Blanchard. What were some of the things that, that, maybe even a phrase that he said to you, Tom that you still repeat? 

Tom Muccio  12:50
Well, one of the things is he talks about servant leadership, don't think less of themselves, they just think of themselves less. And that's a that's a good one to think about. And then I love his when he does his imitation between ducks and eagles, where, you know, you go into some place and, and there, this is our policy. And he'll go, quack, quack, quack, quack, and to, you know, just to demonstrate the, you know, that lack of leadership and of course, his famous ego edging God out. And my favorite one, though, is, remember the cattle aren't or the sheep aren't there for the benefit of the shepherd.

Lisa Nichols  13:36
Oh, that's good. The shepherd is there for the benefit of the sheep.

Tom Muccio  13:43
And so many leaders, so many leaders use the people in their organization for their own benefit. And that one's really, really been instrumental in, in my thinking and trying to put that into practice. And, you know, I were, you know, just as we're talking about this, you talked about people who had influenced you. One of the things that I did early on in my career when I'd meet someone, I say, tell me the five people that influenced you the most. And people could just rattle them off. It was a teacher, a coach, a parent, an uncle. So, I mean, they could just tell you that. So, then I said, because I was always trying to be influential, and I said to myself, cracking the top five is going to be very hard. Maybe I'll just shoot for six through 10. So, my objective has been as many people as I can, I want to be when they say, who are the top 10? Who influenced you? I can't make the top five maybe, but I'll try to maybe I'll get in that six through 10.

Lisa Nichols  14:45
Well, Tom, I feel like you just have, like, read my mind this whole podcast, because here's what I want to talk about. I mean, you clearly were and are a well-respected leader. I'm going to read just a few things to you. And obviously. You did not ask me to do this, and you, you wouldn't want any kind of accolades here, but I'm going to read just a few things that people have said about you. Most talented customer, sales strategy, strategist on the planet, crazy. We talked about collaboration before, probably the most creative collaborator from sourcing and manufacturing through supply chain to customer experience and satisfaction. I love this one. Listen to this. Tom was a true visionary servant leader. Had a profound positive impact on my career development at P&G. No manager that I ever worked for helped develop my leadership skills like Tom Muccio. Tom challenged me throughout my career in starting when, when I started in 1988 by joining the Walmart team, and then he sent me to Cincinnati to work in brand management. 

Lisa Nichols  15:54
Here's another one. Tom is a leader who possesses an extraordinary mixture of IQ and EQ. This enables him to generate loyalty, camaraderie and productivity from his team and organization. He's a brilliant, visionary leader. Listen to this one. Tom is an outstanding coach and mentor, one of only two leaders at P&G who created this space for me to flourish, contribute fully, and grow. Tom's passion for business. I love this one. Tom's passion for business is only surpassed by his love for people. He's a gifted teacher and strategist, reaching consumers, perhaps most importantly, partnering with key retailers. I mean, Tom, you are going to be named in that top 10, and possibly even the top five. Seriously. I mean, how many people, you know, talk about how influential you were and instrumental you were in their career? So, I think, I think you, you definitely are going to be in that top, top 10. 

Tom Muccio  17:03
Well, I hope I'm in a few and, and I've lived an unbelievably blessed life, and so, to I just always keep pinching myself, saying, How could I be so fortunate to get to do the things I got to do. I mean, I worked with like, five or six CEOs at P&G, closely, four at Walmart, closely. I mean, this was, I mean, day to day kind of stuff, and then had the resources of both of those companies to draw on two unbelievably successful companies, even when we started to work together. And then I had my own little skunk work of team that we could take the best of both of those cultures and put them together. You just don't get chance to do that. I mean, it's just, it's incredible,

Lisa Nichols  17:56
Right. We live in the greatest nation, America is the land of opportunity, right? And it doesn't really matter. One of my favorite CS Lewis quotes is, it doesn't really matter where you start, you know, you can change where you end up. And you know, I just, I love that well, you know your last role, so I think I counted up you were at, at least 33 years, maybe 35 years at P&G, I counted up. You had 16 different roles while you were there, Tom. But your last role was President of the Global Customer teams and Global Walmart team. And I want to dig into that. I mean, I know that you took that relationship to new heights. It went from a $350 million relationship to an $8 billion with AB relationship. It's crazy, but I want to talk to you a little bit about P&G, because I cannot tell you how many leaders I have had on the podcast, from Proctor and Gamble. And I'm like, What is the deal with Procter and Gamble? These are the most amazing. In fact, I read a quote somewhere that it said P&G has generated more leaders than just about any other organization in the world. It's a leader making machine. What do you say about that Tom and how in the world does that happen? How do they do it?

Tom Muccio  19:23
Well, you know, there's a number of things. First of all, they really spend an inordinate amount of time recruiting the right kind of talent and each of the functions. And then, because it's a promote from within company, there's a lot of continuity, and continuity allows you to grow and broaden. And you know that everybody you ever work for has had your job or, or something that's similar. So, there's and then you know it was the quality of the people, the quality of the values of the company. What they stood for excellence. I mean, we just, we were drummed in, day in day, do the right thing, do the right thing, do the right thing, and they did not reward people that that cut corners. So, and then, you know, the downside for me was we were so good functionally that we were blind in some respects when we looked at trying to bring the company to the customer. Our strengths were, we were very good at identifying doing the research. What products that people want, where are there gaps in what people want? Then we were terrific and inventing top tier products, the best that you could do in that. And then we had that, we were the number one TV advertiser. So, we created marketing to create the demand, but we had a blind spot when it came to customers, they were kind of a necessary evil, and if they would just do what we told them to do, they would be, be fine with our product. They'd be happy. In fact, I tell some stories. When you join P&G with sales, the first thing they did was cut off your ears, because that way you couldn't hear. All you can do is broadcast.

Lisa Nichols  21:23
That's funny. That is funny. Well, I know, let's, let's get into that. You know, you began working on the P&G Walmart collaboration in 1987. You got to work with Sam Walton some, right? How did he influence your leadership style would you say Tom? And tell me, are there things, just like you said with Kim Blanchard, are there things that Sam Walton said to you, taught you Tom, that you still quote and remember today? 

Tom Muccio  21:56
Yes. Well, he actually captured the concept we were trying to get to. He said he was very frustrated with dealing with P&G and all his suppliers, but we were the biggest one. And he said, If you just could think of my stores as an extension of your company, we would do business totally differently. That's what then we then made the called it the one company operating model. Even though we were two different companies to the extent we were working together, we say, well, if we were one company which, what would we do different? And it wasn't typically the P&G way or the Walmart way, but it was some third way. And I was fortunate enough to I went store checking with them on three times with him on his airplane, which, because he would fly his own airplane. And first time we went up, you weren't supposed to take off until six o'clock. They didn't turn on the lights for the runway. We took off at 5:30 and we barely got off the ground. He put it on automatic pilot, turned the chair and said, Okay, Tom, what do you want to talk about? And meanwhile, my heart was just doing like this, because I had not written on private planes and nobody was steering, 

Tom Muccio  23:18
But I did, I said to him, Sam, I've noticed I want to ask you a question, why do you spend so much time in stores, and when you're in the stores, why do you spend so much time talking with all of the associates, from the brand-new people to the manager? He said, Well, Tom, I spend time in the stores, because that's where the customers are. And I spend time with the associates, because they're the ones that take care of the customers. And the better I can take care of them, the better they will take care of their customers. So, that was, that was a big influence. Just thinking about the people that you're working with and so, those were two that we had a lot of fun with. And, of course, I sometimes had phrases that came out of my mouth, people that you know, when they were right out here, I wanted to grab them and pull them back in, but the filter didn't always work well. And at one point in time, he because he was doing it, he was teasing me about P&G, okay, and that. And he said, Oh, you know, we're just C students that over achieve. And I said it because he was making fun of all the MBAs and share that at P&G. And I said, Well, that's great, Sam, until the A students start over achieving that was one of those that I wish they could have pulled back. But he actually, he laughed like touche.

Lisa Nichols  24:52
You know what I'm thinking about. Tom though, as you talk about him spending time in the stores, it's the, what is it, the Japanese term, Gemba. I think, you know, you spend time where the people are, right? And understanding what the processes are and what's broken and what's, you know, there are obstacles, you know. So, this one company model that you talked about, you know, can you explain? Because I know I've listened to interviews, and you talk about the bow tie, and then you came in and inverted the bow tie. Can you explain the model a little bit more? And then you know, what were some of those key strategies that you employed to make it happen?

Tom Muccio  25:37
Okay. Well, it typically what happened in a customer-supplier relationship. She had a salesperson, and you had a buyer, and they were the ones that did all the communication back and forth. And you had all these resources in both companies that never were brought to bear on the relationship. Or if they were born, if they came in the relationship, it was these are the two people that were the translators, so sometimes they didn't get the message right. So, what we did is we said, Let's take advantage of the strength of both companies. Let's turn the bow tie backwards so the big ends are and so you had finance talk to finance, supply chain to supply chain right on down the line. So, you had functional excellence going on. And then because of that, we just we called it a mirror team. So, it was the same resources at P&G and Walmart, so they were mirror images of each other, and we considered ourselves to be the managing directors of the relationship in the early days. 

Tom Muccio  26:47
And so not only were we building functional capabilities, but then we were putting it together, and we said we had to have objectives and values and things that can play in both companies. So, this wasn't about, it had to be win-win, or at least win-neutral. And the other thing we really understood is that we didn't understand each other very well, and language is huge I mean, words really do mean something. We used to call Walmart, they were an account. Our customers were accounts. I remember saying, wait a minute, I'm I have an account at the bank, but I'm a customer of the bank. And when you start using customer versus account, it says a whole different mental picture. They called us vendors. Well, when I think of a vendor, I think of some kind of a machine that you put in money and something comes out, and it actually made me laugh. And remembered the old Coke machine we had in the basement of my fraternity house, where you put your money in and if you gave it a forearm shiver, you'd get your Coke and sometimes you get your money back. And that's so, you know.

Lisa Nichols  28:08
You're treating your supplier like, that's not a good thing.

Tom Muccio  28:12
But Walmart was, was terrific, and their words that they chose, for instance, they weren't employees, they were associates. And they don't call their, they didn't call their office the headquarters. It wasn't the head-quarters, it was called the Home Office. So, words are very powerful at communicating to individuals or whatever. So, we spent a lot of time trying to understand. Well, why do you do this the way you do it? What are you trying to do? And they would do the same with us. And what we ended up establishing was two major principles. The first one, let's talk about issues, not positions. You can tell me your policy. I'll tell you mine. But what was the issue that that policy was trying to address? And then the second question was, let's do what's right, not who's right. Let's not worry about who's right. And so again, it was like peeling an onion. You'd see something on the surface and say, well, that doesn't make sense. And then you'd understand as they peeled the onion. And then a lot of times, the big opportunities were two or three layers in to peeling and understanding. 

Tom Muccio  29:31
When we started our team, anybody who was on our original team had to work a week in a Walmart store in every function, from unloading trucks to the cash register and whatever, because we didn't really understand retailing. We understood what we wanted from them, but we didn't understand how what they did would work. We took them to Cincinnati and through our various functions, because they everything to them at that time was cost. And if they could have sold Tide in a brown paper bag and saved a dime for everybody, that's what they would have done. But, you know, understanding the difference between quality products. And you know, if it was amazing, what we learned. And, and then obviously, the more you understand reality, the easier it is to fix whatever it is that needs to be fixed.

Lisa Nichols  30:26
There's so much wisdom there, so much wisdom, Tom. And I mean, listen, that concept still stand true today in any industry, right? Not just in consumer-packaged goods or retail, I mean, in any industry. And so, I, as I was kind of reading through some of the things, I put that down, I circled it. I said, the key difference is a deep understanding of both sides. That's the key difference. That's why it worked. And P&G became Walmart's number one partner. What did they call you guys, not vendors, but what did they call you suppliers? 

Tom Muccio  31:14
Yes. 

Lisa Nichols  31:16
Well, I tell you what. I've got so much more I want to talk about here, Tom, but we do need to take a quick break, and we'll be right back with Tom Muccio on the Something Extra Podcast.

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Lisa Nichols  31:56
Well, welcome back, everyone to the Something Extra Podcast with my friend Tom Muccio. This has been so much fun, Tom. I feel like I've been a mentee last few minutes. Here you, you just have so much wisdom. But Tom, I think you're famous for saying, let's invent the future. And I actually love that, because I feel like it gives the power, puts the power back into the hands of the organization. I mean, we truly can create what we want to see, right? But it takes vision. And the other thing I was thinking, if we're going to create the future or invent the future, it's going to take vision, but it probably also takes letting go of some sacred cows. This is a way we've always done things. And I think like willingness to change is hard. And I know that I read somewhere where you said one of your greatest challenges with this whole one company model, in this new way of thinking, was the resistance to change. You know, how did you manage your way through that? And then what I'd love for you to do, because I know, I mean, especially, we always talk with technology, the one thing we can count on is change. But you know, what would you say to those leaders right now that are facing this resistance to change. I mean, how do you, how do you lead through that? 

Tom Muccio  33:24
Well, one of the things which we did internally with Walmart and on our team, and inside P&G was we tried to be very transparent. So, when we would come up with a suggestion or an idea, we would invite, push back any way you want to. The only thing I would ask is, once you push back or request more information, if we answer that, then you go away with that. You don't need to be keep being Johnny one note. So, I got, I would get pretty cranky if people did that, but that then allowed, you know, we wanted to do the best thing. So, if we needed more information for someone to be a supporter, then the other thing we did was a lot of testing. I'm a big believer in testing, because that de risks any kind of idea. You can do something on a smaller scale, but the key, absolute key, is you have to have, what are the success criteria’s, and you have to write them down. 

Tom Muccio  34:32
So, we would test something, and we say, for this to be expanded, what does it have to look like for Walmart? What does it have to look like for P&G, because otherwise you can fall in love with your own ideas, or you come up with new hurdles. And so, we did a lot of things. And the beauty of testing is you could have a lot of things being tested at one time, and then when you when, when you expanded, the ones that were, were working. You knew exactly what the what the investment was going to be from a time, money, whatever, so you knew your ROI. So, it was real easy then to then scale then it was just a question, how do we scale it up intelligently? But it wasn't a question of, you know, is it going to work, or isn't it going to work? And so, that was one of the reasons we got so many breakthroughs, you know, in the relationship.

Lisa Nichols  35:30
Oh, that's really good. That's really good. Well, I want to briefly talk about because you've written a book called collaborative disruption, and I love the subtitle of this. I'm going to read the subtitle The Walmart and P&G Partnership That Changed Retail Forever. What a great subtitle. I mean, who would not want to buy that, Tom? Everybody's gonna want to buy that. But what motivated you to write the book, and what message do you hope readers take from it?

Tom Muccio  36:02
Well, it's interesting because when I retired from P&G to do other things in in 2003 people said, you need to write the story. You need to write the story. And I tried two or three times, but I didn't have an administrative assistant at the time, and the dictation equipment, which I was really good on, the dictation that went away. And so, I did outlines, I tried to write stories and what, and it just got it would get hard, and then something else would come up. And, and John Pepper, who was the one who, CEO of P&G, who actually did the forward for the book, continued to call me and say, Tom, you're one of the only living people who know the whole story. And if you don't record the story, there'll be a gap in P&G and WalMart where we are today versus where we were. And you can't, you can't get where we are today without putting that puzzle piece in. And so then two or three of the folks that were on the original team, he was influenced them as well, and they said, Okay, we're going to drag you across the finish line. So, I had this. 

Lisa Nichols  37:18
You had a team. 

Tom Muccio  37:19
That just forced me to do it, and I and, but it was, it was fun, because I was tell I'm the narrator of our story, and so that's how we ended up doing it.

Lisa Nichols  37:37
Right. Well, and I agree, I agree. It's like there's a piece of history. It was radical, what you guys did.

Tom Muccio  37:46
And I had five audiences in mind when, when I wrote the book. First audience was senior executives in that they're leaving a lot on the table by not doing collaboration with their customers and their suppliers. Second, I wanted to be able to be an inspiration and help with practical stuff for people that were in Team Leader roles already inside a company or between companies. I wanted to have something in there for aspiring leaders to help them to grow. I wanted to, to appeal to business historians. Because, again, people said, well, you know, this to retailing was like a supplier relationship, was like the assembly line was to Henry Ford. I mean, it's, it's really a piece of business history. And then lastly, I wanted to be a good fun read. If someone picked it up in an airport or something and read it on a plane, that they would say I really, I enjoyed that. I liked the stories, and maybe I learned something as well, but it just, it was an entertaining read. So, those were the five things I was trying to get done in terms of the way I wrote it.

Lisa Nichols  39:02
Oh, my goodness, I love it. And I think it's become a case study for Harvard and some other universities, and will live on in perpetuity, which is really beautiful, Tom. Beautiful. So, you know, let's talk about this. I think, you know, and you had results, you talked about outcomes, and you talked about what success looked like, you know. And, I mean, definitely this one company model, I think I had read something like P&Gs grew their market share in 25 of 28 categories. Improved profitability. I mean, this is not just these are not just words. I mean, there were real out positive outcomes from what you guys did. I think the you said something like the ultimate goal was to create more value for the end customer, which I absolutely agree with. Without that in customer, no one has a job, right? 

Tom Muccio  40:07
Absolutely. And that's something that both companies could agree on. It was interesting because they refer to that person is the shopper, and we refer to it as the consumer. And they're not, they're not always the same person, because I might be the shopper for you who are going to be a consumer of a product, but there's close enough overlap. And one of our CEOs said, you know, at P&G, we've always been concerned with, does the product work the way we advertise it when you take it home and use the product.  But he said, I've now since the P&G-Walmart team, I understand that's really the second moment of truth. The first moment of truth happens in store when someone's in front of a shelf trying to decide what to buy, and if they don't, if you don't win the first moment of truth, you can't win the second moment of truth.

Lisa Nichols  41:05
So true. Wow, that's profound. That is definitely profound. Well, you know what I love about what you said with, with P&G, wanting to make sure the product performed as it was advertised. The word that just popped in my head. Tom, is integrity. It was so important to you guys to be known as an organization with integrity. But I totally agree with that CEO, if you don't win that first moment, they're never going to even see the integrity, because they're not going to use the product. So, that's really, that's profound. Well, okay, so you're the founder of Muccio Consulting. I think you still do that. I just Oh, goodness, now I'm gonna lose her name. I was talking to a gal last week that told me that you had mentored her in their company. I want to say, oh, it's Cardone. Cardone. 

Tom Muccio  42:04
Christy. 

Lisa Nichols  42:05
Christy, yes. And she mentioned your name, and I said, Oh, I said I was in SLI with Tom, and then I think our friend, because I was thinking about that too. Tom, wasn't Kevin Crampton the CEO for a while at Cardonne? So, lots of connections there, lots of connections. But you know, what is your approach to helping organizations? So, like when you go into consult now you and you've got this whole, you know, collaboration is the right way to go, and there's a better way to do it. What's your approach with them, to help them with this collaborative growth? 

Tom Muccio  42:40
Well, the first thing I do is I want to have set up time with the C suite, and say, I want to do a relatively quick scan of your organization. Then I want to meet with you. And then think of that as like a doctor who's, who's doing a diagnostic before prescribing. And what I typically will do is talk with people in different levels, in all the different functions. And I'll ask them questions such as, you know, if there's one or two things that could be changed in your job, what would you do and what would be the benefit? But what opportunities are you missing? What pain points are you suffering? And you'd get a feeling of that. And then I sit down with the senior executives and say, here's, here's where I think I can be helpful to you, but you're going to have to do a couple of things. I want a, a person in your organization who's highly respected, who will be leading this on an ongoing basis, because I want to mentor them. I will, I will help guide them and whatever, but I'm not going to be here forever, so and but you need to be really willing to commit, because as the senior executives they do, you know they control a bunch of ours. They control resources. They control resistance to change. They can control rewards. They can control the amount of rope that people get. So, there's a lot of things like that. And if you don't developing something that's going to really work well is an integration of a lot of different things. In fact, one of the things that I encourage when I go into a company, or I go in to speak this team or something, so you know what you want to do, get a team photo, then send it away and have a puzzle made out of it. And give everybody the box with the puzzle pieces inside to set in their desk so they can see what it looks like when it's put together, and realize that all of you are pieces of the puzzle that need to fit together in order to make that picture come to life.

Lisa Nichols  44:57
That is a beautiful visual.

Tom Muccio  45:00
I think it really does, and it also, it also helps from a leader's point of view. You understand that while you may be important, you're only one piece of the puzzle. And there's so much that you see in leaders today, which is entitlement, you know, expectations, and that, you know, okay, the leader may get paid more because there's more economic value to what they bring to the party, but that doesn't, that doesn't entitle you to a whole bunch of other things, that you're better than this and so on and so forth. So, I just, I do think it's a very important visual. And, you know, we think about it even as our bodies, okay, was a lot of parts of me inside that I don't get to see and but you the outside parts. I can comb my hair. I can do the these are the things you see. But I'm sure glad all those inside parts are working well and, and that senior, the executives or the leaders tend to get more of the visual rewards but it's all it's the internal organization that that really drives those results. 

Tom Muccio  46:17
And one of the things that I really worked really hard at as part of my philosophy on servant leadership was to identify those people who don't get much recognition. And ensure that they did get recognition, and we all got to see how what they did drove the results. In the early days we were working exchanging data with Walmart, as an example, we had a woman who would go up to Walmart every day at 3:30 in the morning, and from 4:00-6:00 she could get on their computer, because the rest of the time their computers were running their business. These were the old days of floppy disks and all that. But she would go up and get that data and then bring it back, and our analysts and our marketing people and stuff would do great things, and they get all the credit. But if she wasn't up there every day at 3:30-4:00 doing that. And so, tying back what people do. I'm a big believer in people should be able to see their fingerprints on whatever it is that we do. They ought to say when, when I do this with excellence. Here's what then happens, and they ought to get credit for that. And you know, it doesn't have to be, you know, I mean, just sometimes it's a thank you or a thank you note, or calling them out at a meeting. Those are all to me, are really, really important, if you really want to, because I'm, again, a big believer in capturing the heart as well as the mind in the hand.

Lisa Nichols  47:53
The mind in the hands. I love that. I love that. Oh, my goodness. Well, I'm going to ask you one more question, and then I really want to spend the last of our time on something extra. But Tom, we've already mentioned this. I think anybody that knows you would know this about you, but you are a Christ follower. How has your faith influenced your leadership, the work of your hands, who you are, how's your faith influenced you?

Tom Muccio  48:23
Well, people have asked me, What's the secret to your success? And I say, Well, I was I'm wired courageous, so I had no problem going into the lion's den. I'm also very resilient. Knock me down, I'll get back up again. But what I've had to learn was humility. I had to learn that I'm not the center of the universe, and obviously our faith allows us to, to really have an appreciation for that. And then to me, the way to express that from as a leadership point of view, was from servant leadership. And one of the best examples that I had was from Dan Cathy, who was the CEO of Chick-fil-A at the time. And we were in a meeting at Ken Blanchard's Corporation, and he had a shoe brush, and he had people come up and he get on his knees and shine their shoes. So, I said, that's that is powerful. So, I had shoe brushes made that said Walmart Global Customer team, and when we had one of our team meetings, I called my leadership team up in the front. I got on my knees, shined their shoes, gave each one of them a brush. They went back and did it with their teams. Then we gave everybody a brush, because different people had other people in the team that were that they, you know, had done great things for them. And then we all kept those in our desks to remind ourselves as well that, you know, together, we're a lot bigger than any one of us. Or any couple of us and so that's been. 

Tom Muccio  50:06
And, you know, I also have tried and want to try to live my life intentionally, as opposed to just random and whatever. You know, that's why I said I wanted to be in the, the six through 10 influential. You know, I want to care about people. I want to help them grow. I want to help them achieve what they want to have in their life. But I was a tough leader as well. I held people accountable. There was no, this was not we didn't lead the team as the country club, I can tell you that. But it was, I mean, it was little things too. Even I used to hate it when I'd go in to get a cup of coffee in the break room and there would be no coffee on it, but it was still beyond the thing with it. And so, one time at a team meeting, I put a coffee machine on a cart and brought it into the room, and I said, I'm now going to give everybody a lesson on how do you make coffee. And so, I did that, and then I had someone else come up and I said, Now that everybody knows how to do that, I never want to see an empty pot in the break room again. So it was, I had a lot of fun doing those kinds of things, but they were always, they're always with a point in mind. 

Lisa Nichols  51:24
Yes, oh my goodness. Well, as you're talking Tom, I'm just thinking these activities to drive home principles are things that people will go their whole life and never forget. It makes an impression. It does. I'm going to remember the shoes shining the shoes. I'm going to remember don't leave the coffee pot empty. So well, let me ask you this, Tom, what do you believe is it something extra that every leader needs? 

Tom Muccio  51:54
Well, for me, it's my faith in Jesus, my Lord and Savior, but it's also, I would not to be cliche about that, but it's playing for the long game. It's thinking there's so much that you can get caught up in the short term and whatever. And you know, success can make you blind to reality, and it drives your ego. It drives pride. I don't know whether I think Ken may have said pride, has I right in the middle. And, and then it drives entitlement and elevated opinion of yourself. The Bible clearly says don't think more highly of yourself than you are. Doesn't say you shouldn't think highly of yourself, but it's so to me, it's all gets packaged in a long game and having your own personal vision of what do you what do you want people to at the end of the day to be able to what do you want to be known for? 

Lisa Nichols  52:59
Kind of start with the ends in mind?

Tom Muccio  53:01
Some of the things you read initially, those were things that I wanted people to be able to say about me, that I did care, that I did invest in them, that I did hold them accountable, that I did, you know, like the coach that makes you run laps. Sometimes it's not just even parenting. I believed, as a leader in parenting an organization with the same mindset that I did my children when I wanted the best for them and but you had to take them along. You know, my son was a great kid, but I didn't give him the keys to a car when he was 13, not because I didn't think he would ever drive. He just wasn't capable at that point in time of driving. And that's the same way in an organization, you have people who have potential, and you got to help them reach their potential, but you obviously have to be honest with them, candid as you're going along. Well, you need this skill in order to be able to do this, or you're going to have to, you can't do this and this and expect to get this. It just doesn't work.

Lisa Nichols  54:07
You know, I had a friend one-time Pat Asp, and she said, you know, just because I was soft and hard doesn't mean I was a light in hand. And it's that whole loving people, but holding them accountable. And I just think you probably know him too, Tom, but Patrick Lencioni was a 300 episode right of something extra. And he said, when they go into organizations, the thing that they see that is most lacking are accountability systems. And he said, So, many times we think, Oh, well, we don't want to upset that person, or we don't, you know, we don't want them to feel badly about themselves or whatnot. And he said, really, truly, he goes, it is more unloving not to tell that person. If you really care about somebody and you care about their growth, you don't want them to stay where they are.

Tom Muccio  55:06
Right. Well, you know, and Ken Blanchard, one of the books that I would give any every person who was in their first level management job would be the One Minute Manager and the three principles of clear, specific, timely goals. So, what am I supposed to be doing so on and so forth, then the one-minute praising and the one-minute redirection, and that's, that's the accountability. It's easy to either not hold someone accountable, or even, you know, do puffery, but it doesn't help that doesn't help them. You know, I want someone to be able to tell me that the road that I'm on the bridge is out up ahead so I can take a different course. 

Lisa Nichols  55:49
Yes, exactly. Well, oh my goodness, Tom. I have absolutely loved every minute with you here, and I just appreciate you making the time. I just know that your wisdom, I know that that's going to help our listeners. And I would tell our listeners, go get "Collaborative Disruption." "Collaborative Disruption" if you really want to learn how to take your organization or your life to the next level, let's figure out how to collaborate in the best way. And so, Tom, thanks so much. I appreciate you, my friend.

Tom Muccio  56:23
My honor. And best to you and Greg. You guys are terrific people. And, and great role models for lots and lots of people. And your fingerprints are on a lot of lies, I can promise you.

Lisa Nichols  56:35
Well, thank you for that. 

Announcer  56:38
Thank you for listening to today's show. Something extra with Lisa Nichols as a Technology Partners Production Copyright Technology Partners Inc. 2019. For show notes or to reach Lisa, visit tpi.co/podcast. Don't forget to leave a review on Apple Podcasts, Google Play, or wherever you listen. 

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