Bridging the Courage Gap w/ Dr. Margie Warrell

In this episode, Dr. Margie Warrell discusses her new book, "The Courage Gap: Five Steps to Braver Action," which is inspired by her experiences during the pandemic. Margie shares insights on the importance of focusing on what you most want, not on what you fear, and emphasizes that courage isn't about eradicating fear, but managing it. She encourages listeners to identify their personal courage gap by assessing different areas of their lives and determining what they would do if they were being truly brave.

Guest Links:

• Margie’s LinkedIn
• MargieWarrell.com
• The Courage Gap: 5 Steps to Braver Action

Credits: 
Host: Lisa Nichols
Executive Producer: Jenny Heal
Marketing Support: Landon Burke and Joe Szynkowski
Podcast Engineer: Portside Media

Transcript

Lisa Nichols  00:02
Chromosomes, little strands of nucleic acids and proteins are the fundamental genetic instructions that tell us who we are. At birth, most people are born with 46 chromosomes, but each year in the United States, about 6000 people are born with an extra chromosome, making them a person with Down syndrome. If you've ever encountered someone with Down syndrome, you know that they are some of the kindest, most joyful people you will ever meet. They truly have something extra. 

My name is Lisa Nichols, and for 30 years, I have been both the CEO of Technology Partners and the mother to Ally. Ally has something extra in every sense of the word. I have been blessed to be by her side as she impacts everyone she meets. Through these two important roles as CEO and mother to Ally, I have witnessed countless life lessons that have fundamentally changed the way I look at the world. While you may not have an extra chromosome, every leader has something extra that defines who you are. 

Join me as I explore the something extra in leaders from all walks of life and discover how that difference in each of them has made a difference in their companies, their families, their communities and in themselves. If you like this episode today, please go to Apple Podcast or wherever you listen and leave us a five-star rating. 

I'm thrilled to have Dr. Margie Warrell on the show today. Margie is a leadership advisor sought after, keynote speaker and five-time Best Selling Author. Well, Margie, welcome back to the Something Extra Podcast. I am so delighted to see you, my friend. And it's been a while, and for our listeners who want to go back and listen, Margie was also Episode 219. Margie, that was 100 episodes ago, oh, two years ago when we recorded that.

Margie Warrell  01:55
A lot happens in two years.

Lisa Nichols  01:58
You have been so busy sister, and I have to just say this before, before we get into everything else, you just completed a whole marathon. I am so, you know, and you're not old. I mean, you're like, you know, 29 just like me. But you'd never done that before, and you just completed a whole marathon. I mean, goodness gracious. What was that experience like? And what did you learn about yourself? 

Margie Warrell  02:28
Oh, it was an incredibly empowering experience. Because it was hard. I knew it would be hard. It was hard, but what I learned about myself. And I guess you know, so much of the reason why I did it is that it ultimately comes down to our commitment to just put in the hard yards, take the uncomfortable steps and stick with it, because I am not a natural runner, Lisa. I just wanted to do one marathon. I wanted, once in my life, to see how far my body could take me, how much my legs could just travel. And yes, so I did at the New York Marathon. And it was, I think it was because it was difficult, that it was so incredibly empowering, and I was so proud of myself because I can't say it came naturally. There was so many times in the training you have to just put in and put in and do the miles, and I felt like giving up many times, but I just learned to embrace the discomfort as a sign that I was growing and moving forward. 

Lisa Nichols  03:40
You know, and that is why I love you so much, seriously, and this is what I mean. I, I used to say, and this is kind of gross, and then I was like, I gotta come up with a better thing, you know, eat your own dog food because this is what you preach, you know. So, we're gonna say you were drinking your own champagne, Margie, because this is what you preach about. Being brave and acting brave and doing things courageously, and we're going to talk about that today. But I just love that. It is just that that's so inspiring. It truly is so, there's nothing, no substitute for hard work, though, is there?

Margie Warrell  04:15
No. There was, I mean, there wasn't. You just had to put in the miles, that's why. I also don't think I'll probably run another one, and that you have to put in a lot of hours and those long runs. And but if you just commit to doing it and get your head in that right place, you know it's possible. Everything's possible when we're we've got that commitment. So, practice a lot of discipline as well, not my strong suit. So, I had to, had to definitely develop that muscle of just getting out of bed on a Saturday morning and doing it. But I would hope that for all of the people who are, you know. I'm in my 50s, I have never done that before, they could be thinking, Oh, I'm too old, or I can't do it, Go, you know what? You can, you just have to commit.

Lisa Nichols  05:04
So, inspiring. Was Andrew at the finish line? Were the kids there? Did you have people there rooting you on I bet you did.

Margie Warrell  05:12
Yes. You know, it's funny. Andrew says he had to train to be the cheerleader because he went to various places along the marathon route. And he said that day he did about 10 miles around New York, and its boroughs to get to me so he could cheer, and he's like, I needed a medal at the end of the day, he felt like he was the unsung hero of it.

Lisa Nichols  05:34
Well, there's a lesson there too, right, Margie? Hopefully, when we're doing these things and when it's scared or, you know, acting getting out comfort zone that we have people cheering us on. It's really important, we have encouragement. I'm not going to get off too much on a tangent there, but I was just studying recently. I know you've studied this, but it's like, you know how geese fly in the formation, the A formation. And I was just studying this, and did not really realize, really how intricately that system, it's a system, because you've got the lead bird, and then when that bird gets tired, it goes to the back, and another one takes the lead. But the whole time that they're flying, Margie, the birds in the back are honking. And I've always just thought they're just honking for nothing, but they're not. They're encouraging, you know, the one in the front. So, I got off on a little tangent there but I just think that's so apropos. 

Lisa Nichols  06:38
But for our listeners, Margie is amazing. She's a keynote speaker. She's a five-time best-selling author. She's about to release another, I am sure, best-selling book on January 28. And I'm so excited about this book it's called "The Courage Gap: Five Steps to braver action". Margie, I've read several of the reviews, and they are outstanding. Here's one, an insightful synthesis of evidence-based advice. I love that its evidence based. You've got lots of research in here. This book gives you the tools to break free from fears that have sabotaged your joy, empowering you to live more powerfully and lead more authentically prepare for liftoff. And that's Michelle McQuaid. Here's another one Warrell, provides a roadmap to defy your protective instincts, write new chapters, bring dreams to life. You will return to its pages many times as your story unfolds. And that's Marsha Reynolds. You've got lots here, but, you know, let me ask you a question. So, you've already got five best-selling books. What really inspired you to write "The Courage Gap"?

Margie Warrell  07:53
The last five years really inspired me to write "The Courage Gap". In fact, it's as we're talking now, it's been five years since the world started to, you know, tilt off its access as the pandemic kicked in. I was living in Singapore. I had children living across the world. They found themselves homeless. Singapore locked its borders. My husband, Andrew, got locked up for 30 days because he was one of the first people in Singapore to contract COVID. Like just a lot of things happened in that first quarter of 2020, that really introduced me to whole new ways that fear can take up residence in our lives, and ways that we need to practice courage. And then, of course, by the end of that year, we were able to find after prayers answered, our pathways miraculously opened up for us to move back to the United States, and opportunities opened up. And just there was a whole lot of different experiences over the last five years. I've had kids graduate college and high school and go off into the world, and my mother's declined and passed away with dementia. 

Margie Warrell  09:02
There's just a lot of experiences, including me getting the opportunity to work with really senior executives as a senior partner at Korn, Ferry a role that I've stepped away from now. But those opportunities to just get to see how fear can sabotage us, not always in obvious ways. But sometimes it can be that insecure, overachiever, our ego, our pride, you know, in various different ways. It can keep us from making the decisions that would serve us the most and serve others the most. And so, fear creates the gap between what we do and what we can do, and it takes courage to close it. And hence the title of the book, and really wanting to create really actionable advice to help people do the very things they often know they should do but that they hesitate to do.

Lisa Nichols  09:56
Well, that's a perfect segue. Because I want to ask you, can you give us an overview, there's five steps, and maybe you can just give us a little taste of those five steps. And maybe something that even the listener can just take away today and put into action. 

Margie Warrell  10:13
Well, yes, absolutely! There are five steps and, and the first one, I'll just, I'll touch on, and we can, we could deep dive on any of them. But the first one is about focusing on most what you most want, and not on what you fear. And that it's that's the start of the book. I really want to have people kind of think about what is it that you most want? Because unless you're clear about what you most want. Our fear of what we don't want will govern our decision and direct our lives. And so, you know, it was Cicero who said that we have to commit our lives to the highest good. So that, you know what we most want could be, you know, what do I most want today. As I manage my team or as I deal with a difficult situation with a colleague or someone who works for me. It could be what do I most want this year in 2025 but it's also about what is it that we most want over the long arc of our lives, and who is it that we most want to be. 

Margie Warrell  11:13
And when we are really rooted in our deepest values and connected to the highest and holiest vision for our lives. It makes courage easier, not necessarily easy, but the actions we need to take become clearer when we're really clear about the values and the vision that we want to define our lives by. And so, just getting that clarity of vision, because Lisa, I'm sure you've encountered people who not really clear about what they stand for, not really clear about what they want, and when we don't know what we want, we can kind of go along this path of least resistance. Sometimes we can sell out on you know who it is we want to be. We can sell ourselves short. So, there is just a deep power we unlock when we get that clarity about what it is we most want. And because we are wired for safety and security and status and self-protection, our fear is often going to sit in the driver's seat of our lives unless we are committed to something that's more important than our fear. And so, I encourage everyone that's listening to go, you know, commit to a positive outcome that exceeds your fear of a negative outcome, because we have to do that regularly.

Lisa Nichols  12:36
Margie, that is so good. And you said that, you know, most likely I know people you know, I think there's been times in my life where I've been that person, you know. I'm just gonna admit I'm like, Well, I really don't know you know for sure what I want, but here's what I do know. I do know that if you don't take the time, and I call it having a meeting with yourself if you don't take the time to really do that hard and it's hard work. It truly is to sit with yourself and do that introspective and ask yourself those hard questions, it's going to be hard to get that clarity, right? So, I just had Cory Carlson on the podcast. I don't know if you know Cory, but he's an executive coach now. And was a executive at a large, large company. And he said he realized that in business a lot of times, you know, we always have mission, values, core, core values. We have vision. We have all these things in business, but so oftentimes people don't have that for their personal lives. And it's kind of, what is it from Alice in Wonderland, what's that famous quote the Cheshire Cat? 

Margie Warrell  13:53
If you don't know where you're going, any road will take you, essentially.

Lisa Nichols  13:58
Yes exactly. So, I could not, I could not agree more. I love what you said, too about it's the gap, right, between what you want and where you are. That's where fear comes in, and replacing that fear with courage is the goal.

Margie Warrell  14:16
Well, I'm just going to clarify that a little bit. It's not always about replacing the fear, because our fear is wired into our psychological DNA, we wouldn't be here as a species if we didn't have it. So, fear on its own is not a bad thing. It serves a purpose. Every emotion serves a purpose. It is there to protect us from danger, real or perceived. The problem is, is that we live in a world today where we're being bombarded all the time with reasons to feel afraid, to feel anxious. It's actually the safest time in human history to be alive, Lisa. Yet, there is more anxiety, more people suffering from anxiety today than ever before, and that's not because of the dangers out there. It's our perception. We live with this heightened sense of danger and so just being mindful that this isn't about fear eradication, it's about fear management. And as I say in the book, there's two core dimensions to courage. One of them is managing our fear, because our fear may be real, but it's not always rational, and it's often coming because we have these distorted and magnified perceptions of the risks. We think it's too risky, but we're really often not particularly good at getting clarity on what's the risk, what's the price we pay if we don't take that brave action, if we don't do it? And so, it's about having our courage exceed the size of our fear, and being committed to something that's more important than avoiding what we fear.

Lisa Nichols  15:55
That is good. That is good. Well, let me ask you something, what you know, How can someone, how can someone identify their personal courage gap? I mean, what, what could someone do? I mean, what would you do? Identify, to really identify and get clear on that, Margie?

Margie Warrell  16:17
Well, two things. One, I would say, take the courage quiz, which is going to be on the books, web page, on my website, which I'm sure you'll share a link to. But secondly, I would just invite people to think about any aspect of their life, and it could be professionally, it could be personal, in your relationships, in your sense of well-being, and ask yourself, you know, how would I give it a score out of, out of 10? And if there's areas of your life that aren't getting at least a solid eight, but even if they are, but if they're certainly under that, then ask yourself, you know, what is it I would be doing if I was being really brave and bringing courage to this area of, of my life? And chances are, what you'd be doing is going to there's going to be a gap between what you would be doing and what you what you have been doing. And I would say therein lays your courage gap. Maybe it's having a difficult conversation with a family member. Maybe it's changing up how you're running your life and what you're committing to and how you're filling your days. Maybe it's being really honest with yourself about your own health and well-being, and taking on doing something that that that nourishes and nurtures, you know, this earth suit that we're walking around in. So, so often, you know, we have, we have these gaps in our lives, but we're not, they're not always obvious to us, because they become normalized, and people just get used to being ho hum in different areas of their lives. And I think none of us are called to go through life feeling ho hum about things.

Lisa Nichols  17:54
No, I completely agree with you. Why would you want to do that, right? I want to. I had someone on the podcast that you would that you would know, Ken Blanchard, and he's like, I you know, he was 83 at the time, Margie. Wow. He's like, I want to live the rest of my life with gusto. The best years are ahead of me. 

Margie Warrell  18:13
I love that, I love that, I love that.

Lisa Nichols  18:17
And I'm like, that's the way I want to be, right? So, I love that. Well, so you just kind of, I said, what are some small, practical steps they can take? And you just kind of gave us some of those. But you know, how would you suggest, because we've got a lot of leaders, listen to the Something Extra Podcast. How would you, and certainly, I think people catch the things are caught more than taught. I do believe so leaders can model that for their teams. But how would you encourage a leader to encourage their team to step into more brave action and to conquer their courage gap?

Margie Warrell  18:59
Well, firstly, I would say it starts with you. You have to model the way. You cannot be telling people, be braver, you know, be more candid. You know, experiment more, innovate more, try new things, disrupt the status quo if you are not doing that yourself. And it's why this book I wrote, it starting with how we each lead ourselves in a domain of what I call personal leadership. Because our ability to affect change around us in our teams and in our organizations starts with how effective we are at leading change within ourselves. So, firstly, modeling the way. Secondly, recognizing that we are all shaped by our environment. And anytime someone thinks about taking an action, they're automatically doing a mental calculus risk versus reward. Is this worth me speaking up in this meeting and challenging something? Is this worth me throwing out this wild idea on how to address a problem? Is this worth me giving this feedback to someone. And so, the cognitive calculus always errs towards caution and safety. 

Margie Warrell  20:08
And so, you have to create that environment that doesn't just make it safe for people to do the brave thing, to speak up, to give the feedback, to try something new, to challenge the old. It actually people need to know that actually, as they weigh up the pros and cons, they're more likely to be rewarded for it than marginalized for it. And so how do you foster that, what I call a culture of courage that makes these acts of bravery safe. And ways of doing that, I mean, there's, there's, there's several. I share them in the at the end of the book, I talk about, how do you make others braver? It's how I finish the book. Is fostering that environment. One you build people up. You help them believe in themselves. Sometimes you push them outside their comfort zone, but you acknowledge what you see as possible for them. So, you grow the person. Two, you shrink the fear. You make that you remove some of the reasons that they might have to play it safe, and you remove that hesitation. And you know, when we make the people bigger and we remove the reasons they would hesitate to do the brave thing, then we're fostering that culture of courage. Because just as fear is contagious, and I believe fear is the biggest threat in any organization. Fear is the big most people think of, oh, there's Gen AI and geopolitical instability and all these things, but actually it's the fear that keeps the incredibly talented, capable people around us from bringing their boldest thinking, from engaging in those crucial yet courageous conversations. 

Margie Warrell  21:48
And so, if leaders aren't addressing that, then potential is getting squandered. There's value, and there's this slow leakage of value over time. And so, I think one of the most pressing responsibilities of leaders is to foster that environment where people are unafraid to give bad news, share feedback, to disagree, etc. And yet, time and time again, and working with some extremely large organizations, I have seen that fear is governing the decisions, and it's keeping people from, from really engaging with each other, much less leading their teams with the courage needed to unlock more value.

Lisa Nichols  22:33
Right. No, I love that and the possibilities, right? I was talking to somebody last week, and they were talking about jobs. And when Jobs came back to Apple, I guess they had had all these outside consultants coming in, Margie, talking about what Apple needed to do with the next computer. And it was people in the organization that Jobs helped call their voice out, that ended up coming up with the iPhone and the iPad and this kind of thing. But, you know, they their voice was not really being heard because it wasn't valued, or, you know, there was fear of speaking up and thinking that these outside consultants had better ideas than the people within the organization. And I just found that so, so fascinating. So, that is so good. Well, let me ask you this. I mean, you kind of already answered this, but can these five steps that you talk about in the five steps just real quick, focus on desired outcomes rather than fears, re-script the narrative that causes feelings of being stuck, stressed or living too safely, embody courage, step into discomfort, find the treasure when you trip. I'd love for you to talk about that one. But these can all be, these are really transcendent, aren't they into different areas of your life. I mean, it can be your personal life, your professional life, your social life. I mean, it really applies to any area.

Margie Warrell  24:02
Absolutely. I mean, we're all humans, right? And so, you know, some people work in big corporate environments. Some are in small businesses. Some of them are in the in professional services. You know, they might be in, they might be in working in a hospital or in an educator in a school. But all of these apply, because at the end of the day, when you drill it all down, we humans are much more alike than we are different, and while the context of our lives is different. The dynamic forces that shape how we think and how we act are very similar. 

Lisa Nichols  24:38
That's good. Let me ask you, okay, that fifth step. Dive into that one for a minute. Find the treasure when you trip. 

Margie Warrell  24:49
Well, let's face it, if you're being brave in what you do, and if you're trying new things, if you're acquiring another company, if you're restructuring an organization, if you're, you know, rolling out some new product. You know, anything that you're doing, I mean, that's, that's an, obviously a professional sense, but that you're not always going to land the perfect outcome. You know, the fact that we might be brave and we step into our courage gap doesn't mean that every step is going to land in a, oh my gosh. That was brilliant. It's a, sometimes we get it wrong, because the essence of courage is the willingness to act in the in the presence of uncertainty. There are unknowns, there are risks. We're not denying that there's risks, and while the risks take many shapes and forms, we have to be able to manage through those risks. And sometimes we risk getting it wrong, and we do, we don't land it perfectly. 

Margie Warrell  25:41
And so, this final step, if we don't know how to pick ourselves up when we fall and when we fail, then we're not going to risk being brave. We're going to just keep going. I'm going to just play it safe. So, we have to, we have to learn how to fail well. And it's about learning how to fail well. And I share in this step that there's two types of failure. One is when we put ourselves out there, we try something, we're not sure how it's going to work. I mean, we're engaging in what are risking worthy failures, and it doesn't land. And other times we fail to try. We know we should do it and we don't. But both of those buckets one and bucket two failures both offer opportunities for us to learn and to grow. And so, when we fail to learn from our failures, we essentially fail twice. And so, it's about learning how to how to fail well. You know, and if you think about it through the lens of experiments, right? Experiments provide the ultimate source of certainty, because whatever you do, you're bound to get feedback, and you go, Okay, let's learn from that. But often, as hard as it is to fail, it's even harder to learn from it, and the higher people climb in their careers. And research bears this out, the less open we are to learning and to really looking our failures head on and going, what is it that I did or failed to do that contributed to that? Because it can be jarring to our sense of identity. You know, we like to see ourselves as winners. 

Margie Warrell  27:18
And so, it takes courage to really look at our failures and go, What is the learning for me here? And that learning is other nuggets of gold. So, when I say, find the treasure, when you trip, I'm like, mine your failures. Don't just brush them away or going, Oh, well, better luck next time you know it was the market, or it was this, or it was that, I really look at them. What is it that you did or failed to do? And when we can extract that learning, we can't ever control the output of our efforts, our input, but when we're learning from that output, we are able to upgrade the input. And I often see, you know, my work coaching people, I often see they're in environments where they're not they're not mining the learning from failure. They're trying to avoid failure, and then when they do fail, they're like, let's not talk about it, let's just go somewhere else. And I often think if you could unleash that learning and scale that across different parts of your business, or just your life, you know, how would that allow you to upgrade the input to move forward faster. 

Lisa Nichols  28:24
That is so good, Margie, I love that. I've got a friend. He was actually a podcast guest. His name is Cujo Tuschner, and Cujo was a Top Gun flight instructor. And I will never forget this. I don't remember everything that we talked about, but the one thing that I will never forget, he said in the military, it's always plan, execute, debrief. Plan, execute, debrief, because not every military operation goes as planned, but lives depend on you doing that debrief. And I've just never forgotten that. And so, like, I know what Technology Partners always want to say whether we win or whether we lose, I want to debrief. I want to do a retrospective, when we win, why did we win? And asking the client, why did you choose us? And then the other the other side too. Because, boy, oftentimes we learn the most, unfortunately, when we fail, is where we learn the most. And to your point, the input can be better.

Margie Warrell  29:35
There's Daniel Gilbert out of Harvard, talked about how often we hold back from taking action when, where there's a lot of uncertainty, there's a lot of unknowns, or, like, let me just wait until I have a bit more certainty. Wait, like, when actually we should be just blundering forward. And when I say blundering forward, it's not about being it's not about not giving sufficient thought to what could go wrong. You know, what are the risks? How do I mitigate against the downsides, etc., but it's actually just simply being in action, because when we're in action, we're getting back feedback. Okay, that didn't work. Okay. That could have been different, but we're getting that feedback. And I think in a world where things are moving fast, how fast we learn is in itself, a business strategy, like, if you can learn faster than your competitors, you're in action. So just, I think it requires resetting our relationship with failure, which we often have it on. You know, it's a shame trigger. It's like, oh, I failed, but when we can, I'm not saying we love it. It's not I'm not saying we pursue failure. We actually want to pursue success, but we have to tolerate the risk of failing as we pursue that larger vision and goal. And I think when we befriend failure, it doesn't fracture our self-esteem. It actually fortifies our self-esteem, because we're able to learn more and grow more, and we're not defined by our failure. Failure is an event. It's not a person we're defined by our, by our willingness to continually keep risking worthy failure in pursuit of some greater, some greater outcome.

Lisa Nichols  31:11
That is so good. Well, Margie, we got to take a quick break here, and we'll be right back on the Something Extra Podcast with my dear sister, Margie Warrell.

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Lisa Nichols  31:49
So, welcome back, everyone to the Something Extra Podcast with Margie. So, Margie, we were just talking about finding the treasure when you trip and you said, you know, don't, you know the failure doesn't define us. But really, and sometimes we're like, oh, we don't you know there's shame, oh, you know, I tried this in a field, but you know, there are studies that show Harvard has all these studies about the power of vulnerability and the power of authenticity. So, I think even as a leader, to be able to say, gosh, we tried that. And you know what? It did not work. It's okay, because I think showing that vulnerability, or I tried this personally. I tried to run a marathon. I've not ever tried to run a marathon, but I say I'm gonna run a marathon all the time, and my family just like nods and kind of laughs. But now you've really inspired me, so, I'm not really sure. I may have to call you for some encouragement in that. But, let's talk about that a little bit. I mean, what do you what do you think about the vulnerability piece and how powerful that can be for your team? 

Margie Warrell  33:00
Yes, absolutely. Well, you know, Brene Brown talks about courage, vulnerability being the ultimate measure of courage. I think that that holds a lot of truth. I also think that vulnerability is what it takes for us to be able to mine that, mine the learning from our failures. And to role model the kind of leadership that authentic leadership that makes it safer for others to be real and to share the unvarnished, uncurated, sometimes messy moments in their own journey. And so, I always encourage leaders to just reveal your own humanity, because we humans are not perfect. We are fallible. We will not always get things right. We will not always show up as the patient, calm, thoughtful, considered brave person that we most want to be. We're going to have moments when we aren't who we want to be, and when we can own that. And when we can apologize sometimes and say, you know, I, I didn't get that right, or I was a little short, or, you know, I was I was afraid of what might happen, and I didn't do the thing that I know I needed to do. Like other people can see that we're human, and we're doing the best we can, and we're trying at least we're open to it. And I have seen many times, leaders can earn immense trust by sharing their full humanity with people. And I think there's just a massive power to that. 

Margie Warrell  34:37
But something that I, and I've written about this in the book, and it's about making peace with our unfinished selves. We are, all of us a work in progress. We're rough drafts of the person that we want to become, and we're all going to slip up. We're all going to fall down. We're all going to have moments where there's a gap between who, who we want to be and who we're being, and the kind of we can be to ourselves in those moments. This isn't a Get Out of Jail Free card and going, I messed up, whatever it's about, going, I'm human, and I didn't manage that as well as I'd like to have managed that. And when we can just make peace with those parts of ourselves, even when we wimp out. And I share a couple of stories in the book where, you know, I have wimped out. I've wimped out of having difficult conversations that were going to be just too awkward, too uncomfortable. They felt risky and I didn't and how, ultimately, you know there was a there was a ripple effect of that. And when I've been able to just go, you know what you were doing the best you can, but now that you know better, you can do better. And I think just being able to forgive ourselves, there is such a power in forgiving ourselves for being the human becoming’s that we are. 

Lisa Nichols  36:00
That's so good. I love that. I love human becoming’s because we are becoming. The other thing I just think of, Margie, as you're talking about this. It's we talk about needing to extend grace to people, but I always say, but you also remember, you need to extend grace to yourself. 

Margie Warrell  36:21
Oh. And I wrote about that extending grace inward. And honestly, Lisa, I don't believe we can authentically extend grace to others when they mess up as the people we'd like to count on inevitably. Well, because they're human, we have to begin with ourselves, and the more you can extend that grace to yourself, it expands your capacity to extend it to others. That doesn't mean you don't manage accountability. That doesn't mean that you might not say this isn't a fit here and but it does mean that you just extend that they are on their path. They're on their journey of becoming and I think that's why I really believe that really the journey for leaders. We often talk about the what of leadership, the strategy, the execution, the skill set, the expertise that's needed, but it's actually we have to develop who we are to be up to be able to execute on the bigger strategies. Like, you know, we rise through the ranks because of what we do, but we often cap ourselves and limit others because of who we are. And if we haven't looked within ourselves and gone. You know, where is it that I need to shine the light on, where I'm terrified of being exposed, where I hold this perfectionist bar for myself for others that just keeps me on this merry go round of never enough. They're never enough. I'm never enough, drives us to be super controlling or micromanaging, etc. Those are the things that ultimately cap who we are as, as leaders in our own lives and in the organizations that we are privileged to have a leadership role in. 

Lisa Nichols  38:15
Oh, that's so good. Boy, we could just, I can see something extra, part three, talking about the whole perfectionism bar, and how we measure ourselves that way. And I think about, I can't remember, is it Covey who says about taking the lid off, we keep that lid on ourselves when we don't deal with these things. So, you know, let me ask you this Margie, because, I mean, I hear this, I don't know if it's getting a little tired, but I hear people all the time about the imposter syndrome. You know, the imposter syndrome. So, you know, what is you know, what is that? How does the your book, like, address maybe imposter syndrome, and then that connection to courage.

Margie Warrell  39:03
Well, imposter syndrome, it relates very tightly to the second step, which is about re-scripting what keeps you stuck, stressed or living too safely. And imposter syndrome, if we break it down, it's the phenomenon by which we are telling ourselves, living inside a story that we're not good enough in some way. And at some moment, it fuels a fear that at some moment, people around us are going to realize that we aren't as good as they think we are. We're not as clever, as accomplished, as worthy for the role that we're in, as smart, etc. And it fuels this lingering kind of low-grade anxiety of, when will people realize I'm not as good as they think? So, it's totally driven by fear, but that fear is created because we're buying into a narrative of false belief. And our beliefs are the software of behavior that we need to be more of something in order to be worthy. And so it can keep people from stepping forward more powerfully, from leading more effectively, but it can also keep us playing ourselves too small I mean. We deprive everyone else of what we have to bring, and it takes courage to defy those voices to go, what if I'm wholly worthy for where I am? It doesn't mean I need to know everything. It doesn't mean I'm the smartest person in the room. It doesn't mean I have all the expertise that's required for in every domain of the role I'm in, but that I'm worthy of being here, and that what I don't know with humility, I can figure out, I can learn, that I get other people around me, that we become very curious. 

Margie Warrell  40:52
And so, imposter syndrome is essentially a fear that is fueled by a false perception of self, and our unwillingness to internalize our strengths and successes and that shame. You know, that thing we were just talking about, like, if you can just pull the lid off the shame, like, what is it that's keeping you from internalizing your worthiness, the successes, all the things you've done and all the things you've overcome to get to where you are. And if we could just lead ourselves from that place and then lead others from that place, it actually dissolves our need to prove and impress and have to let everyone know how good we are. Because often imposter syndrome drives people to just work furiously hard to prove that they're good enough when actually, and to be get swamped in this, I've got to prove I'm brilliant and excellent. And actually, that can be exhausting. It actually can undermine us from doing higher value things.

Lisa Nichols  41:52
Boy, that's so good. That is so good. Margie. Well, oh, my goodness. I've got lots of other questions, but I know we're running out of time here. You know, if readers can take away one message from your book, "The Courage Gap", what would it be?

Margie Warrell  42:10
Reset your relationship with what makes you feel uncomfortable and view discomfort as a cue to move forward, as a sign that you're growing into your fullest potential. And who you can be as a leader and not as a cue to retreat, to escape, to put up the walls of self-protection.

Lisa Nichols  42:31
That's good. Well, Margie, I'm going to ask you something extra here in a minute. But what are you working on next? You are so busy I'm thinking, oh my goodness, it was two years ago, and all you've accomplished, I'm sure you've got something, percolating. Are you already working on your next book, Margie?

Margie Warrell  42:50
Certainly not actively. No. And you know, it's interesting, Lisa, I'm in an interesting place right now. I have felt called to just step away from what I have been doing the last few years. I've had this, you know, full time role to create space for using my gifts for the highest good in other realms. And I'm so I'm doing stuff with global leaders through the McCain Institute and Women's Democracy Network and I just don't know exactly what the future holds. As a woman of faith, I know who holds the future, and I am just creating space, a clearing to see what that's going to look like. But I cannot say that I'm working on something specific, because I'm actually not. Right now, I'm working on getting this book out in the world. I just really believe that the insights I have to share can make a really meaningful impact for leaders and for anyone who wants to make their highest point of contribution.

Lisa Nichols  43:49
I love that well, you know, I just think about two things as you were just talking. Sometimes we don't see the big picture very few of us have the big plan, right? We don't. And I was just thinking as you were talking, sometimes we just, it's the light for the next step, and you just take the next step and you take the next step. So, for any of our listeners that are sitting there thinking, gosh, look at all that Margie, she must have planned all this out. It rarely happens that way. You just take one step of obedience at a time. And I think, you know, I personally, as a woman of faith, I personally believe God designed it that way so that we would continue to rely on him. Because if we had the big blueprint, we would just go.

Margie Warrell  44:39
There is, no. There is no blueprint. But I've often, I mean, I've my last 25 years, or raising kids and moving around the world. I've always been driven is this, am I moving towards something that's inspiring for me and is stretching me, but is also helping me, like just feel truthful to the calling on my heart. And sometimes that requires staying on the path we're on, and sometimes that requires verging off to an unknown one, but that's always going to require us to have faith and practice courage in some way.

Lisa Nichols  45:13
Absolutely. Well, I have to ask you really quick, and then I know we need to, we need to move along here, but something extra, and you've already touched on it, but I'd love for you just to tell our listeners, Margie, what do you believe is this something extra that every, not just leader, every person, every human being needs?

Margie Warrell  45:35
Courage.

Lisa Nichols  45:37
Courage.

Margie Warrell  45:39
And, you know, going back to Aristotle, you know, courage is the virtue which guarantees all others. I believe it's the force multiplier for us to live our biggest, bravest and most authentic lives. It requires doing the very thing. Sometimes that little fearful voice in our head says not to and I think it's the birthplace for us to, to be the latest that we're called to be. 

Lisa Nichols  46:03
It's so good. Well, it's so good to see you, my friend. 

Margie Warrell  46:07
You too. 

Lisa Nichols  46:07
Thank you so much. I'm so proud of everything you're doing. I hope our listeners go out and get the book. It releases on January 28, right? So, I think they can even pre-order now on Amazon. But follow Margie, she is absolutely brilliant. If you need a keynote speaker, she will knock it out of the park for you. So, I just appreciate you so much, my friend, coming on to the show today.

Margie Warrell  46:31
Likewise, right back at you. Thanks, Lisa. 

Announcer  46:35
Thank you for listening to today's show. Something Extra with Lisa Nichols as a Technology Partners Production Copyright Technology Partners Inc. 2019. For show notes or to reach Lisa, visit tpi.co/podcast. Don't forget to leave a review on Apple Podcast, Google Play, or wherever you listen. 

*Please note, the preceding transcription has been automatically generated and should be used for informational purposes only.